When I first began researching how we know the Bible is true, one proof that kept coming up was that the Bible teaches that the earth hangs on nothing:
“He… hangeth the earth upon nothing.” Job 26:7
This verse seems to be evidence of God’s deep understanding of His creation (aka “insider information”).
This seemed pretty impressive at first, but upon further investigation I found it a rather unexceptional revelation.
Why the Bible always had a 100% chance of guessing this one correctly
For starters, the odds of just guessing this one correctly are pretty darn good — just 1 in 2 — since either the earth hangs on something or it does not.
The odds may be even better if we consider:
1) There was nothing visibly tethering the earth to the sky,
2) The sun and moon also appeared to hang on nothing, and
3) The sun regularly goes down in the West and comes up in the East, and nothing seems to block its path.
But still… Job did guess correctly, isn’t that worth something?
Well, if we back up a bit, we see that Job also seems to say the opposite:
“He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.” Job 9:6
Pillars? How can the earth hang on nothing and be placed on pillars?
God also seems to support the idea of a foundation, and answers Job saying:
“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? … Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?” Job 38:4-6
God tells us what those foundations are in 1 Samuel:
“The pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.” 1 Samuel 2:8
And again in Psalms 75:
“When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.” Psalm 75:3
Because the Bible hints at both possible answers, regardless of which answer turned out to be true, we could potentially argue that the Bible had predicted it all along. If the earth hangs on nothing, then the Bible was right, and if it’s on some kind of foundation, then the Bible is still right (and the pillars become a metaphor for whatever that foundation is).
But… all the wrong verses were just metaphors!
Biblical apologists now argue that all the pillar verses are some kind of metaphor, while the single “hangs on nothing” verse is allowed to maintain a literal meaning because… well… it just happens to be true.
But imagine if tomorrow we discovered that the earth actually was set on pillars! Wouldn’t apologists immediately change their tune and say the exact opposite? They would say, “God knew the earth was literally on pillars! That’s why He said so several times!”
The fact is, Job 9:6 and Psalm 75:3 seem to be attempting a literal explanation of earthquakes. Surely ancient people must have wondered “What could possibly cause the entire earth to tremble and quake? It must be on some kind of unstable foundation… like… pillars!”
Regardless of what they may have been thinking, it would certainly be more convincing if the Bible said: “The land and sea all float upon a core of hot melted rock, which sometimes moves around, resulting in quakes in some areas.” But unfortunately, the Bible doesn’t give us this kind of specific and insightful knowledge about our world.
Conclusion
My primary objection to this proof is that the odds of just guessing this detail correctly are better than a coin toss, it’s not an improbable revelation. My second objection is that even if this observation turned out to be wrong, those verses about pillars could be turned into a metaphor for whatever foundation happened to be holding up the earth. And finally, if it could ever be proven that these inspired authors believed that the earth was set literally set upon pillars, then this too would be to the Bible’s discredit.
I’m enjoying your posts! (Or should I say, pillars?)
Keep ‘em coming.
Thanks. 15 down, 485 to go.
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Wow dude, you need to take a course on hermeneutics, your understanding of texts in their context is so misguided. firstly, you cannot take one scripture like Job 9:6 and say boom theres proof, pillars! read the entire of Job 9…thats why it is there. Try and understand the writers tone and to what degree something is metaphorical or literal. I understand clearly the whole purpose is to bash Christianity, but try a little to be intellectual and unbias in your interpretation. Otherwise your goal of getting people against the bible is merely just going to fuel the already anti-biblical people, and not any sceptics. Also, the earth hangs upon nothing, please explain how that can be metaphorical? how many times have writers in the bible expressed the earth in a metaphorical way, especially like that. 1 Samuel 2:8, again taking one piece of writing and ignoring the context completely. “But imagine if tomorrow we discovered that the earth actually was set on pillars! Wouldn’t Christians immediately say the exact opposite?” – no, because then Job would not have written that. Come now…
Hi Liam, thanks for the criticism… I think.
I hear you saying that one must read everything in context to understand it, and have a proper understanding of hermenuetics to do so. So… I’m hoping you didn’t come to your conclusions about my purpose, goal, and bias without reading all of my posts in their proper context. That’s why they’re there.
And come now… surely you realize that one of the oldest “tricks” of religion is to accuse the other guy of misinterpreting scripture. Even if we give a Catholic, a Protestant, and a Jew a degree in hermenuetics, they’d STILL disagree about what the Bible says. The Christians and Jews have been battling over “proper hermenuetics” for thousands of years, and it’s gotten us nowhere.
The point of question #15 is to say that many Christians will bring up Job 26:7 and say “Boom! There’s proof that God understands science and wrote the Bible!” When, at best, it’s a mediocre observation, which is possibly in contrast with the more plentiful suggestions that the earth is on some kind of foundation (other than liquid rock).
So sure, MAYBE God inspired the Bible. And MAYBE He knew full well that the earth goes around the sun and is filled with liquid rock, but INSTEAD He chose to speak about metaphoric pillars.
Or… MAYBE God is behind another religion, and is choosing to speak metaphorically about how the earth rests on a turtle… or a whale… or four elephants. Men too can make metaphors, but GOD should know the truth, so it’s a shame if He’s chosen to use the same stupid metaphors that men do, especially when He knows the truth and could establish His supremacy by sharing a few scientific insights.
Or… MAYBE… the Bible is written by humans, the same humans that made up all the other interesting stories.
Merry Christmas
“And come now… surely you realize that one of the oldest “tricks” of religion is to accuse the other guy of misinterpreting scripture. Even if we give a Catholic, a Protestant, and a Jew a degree in hermenuetics, they’d STILL disagree about what the Bible says. The Christians and Jews have been battling over “proper hermenuetics” for thousands of years, and it’s gotten us nowhere.”
-Yes, I agree, and what happened when Jesus Christ, He completed the law and the prophesies regarding the scriptures where the the Scribes had totally different interpretations. It totally depends on whether you have adopted a post-modern view or not, whether you believe in absolute truth or not. Obviously you can see I do believe in absolute truth, not in a doctrine or a word, but in Christ as a person, outside of human influence much like your deliberations. So using other religions reasons as to support disagreeing on interpretation of scripture doesn’t apply because it wont change the fundamentals of knowing Christ which fulfils all.
“Men too can make metaphors, but GOD should know the truth, so it’s a shame if He’s chosen to use the same stupid metaphors that men do, especially when He knows the truth and could establish His supremacy by sharing a few scientific insights.”
- same stupid metaphors? same as what? have you done any research regarding the historical accuracy and integrity of the bibles old and new testament, perhaps David Pawson’s book “new evidence that demands a verdict” would interest you. And comparing the impact that metaphors or scientific insights can have is extremely debatable. We both know facts dont speak for themselves, interpretation is still needed. If that were not the case, we would not have this fiasco of scientists seeing the same piece of evidence and somehow having conclusions point to a creator and a cosmic accident.
“Or… MAYBE… the Bible is written by humans, the same humans that made up all the other interesting stories.
- perhaps, much like your views right? and mine? Thats the problem of adopting a sceptic outlook, nothing is sufficient evidence except that which confirms your preconceived notion, which I believe you have made evident in your writing.
I respect your sincere response, much appreciated
thanks for the blessings, excuse my extremely late reply 
All the best
Something what that article doesn’t say is that the Earth can still HANG upon nothing and be set on pillars. Job was simply saying that the Earth doesn’t hang upon nothing, or the Earth doesn’t HANG, it is set on pillars and has a foundation. It doesn’t HANG. The apologists won’t clear THAT contradiction up, though, will they? LOL
Thanks Garbonzo,
Yes, that thought had occurred to me — just because it doesn’t hang on anything doesn’t mean it couldn’t also be supported by something.
I think the whole of this topic just identifies how little we know even now. As Garbonzo says it is very interesting and I agree. To assume a pillar contradicts the Earth standing on nothing is an empty argument, for to suggest that if it stands on pillars can’t be accurate as it can’t also hang suspended on nothing at the same time, you would assume that you are talking about a flat Earth? We all know the Earth is not flat, in much the same way as scripture suggests, and so it could be suspended on nothing and yet, due to it’s spherical nature, it’s internal parts could indeed support the Earth. But then you assume that current scientific thinking suggests that we do know about the internals of our Earth. Whislt there is a wide belief about the Earth having a Molten Liquid core, recent thinking has once again changed to suggest that the actual core is Rock underneath the Liquid Mantle. If this core is Rock (under this way of thinking) then it could also mean that the Earth could have supporting pillars. Add to teh fact that there are crystalline pillars that proceed from this core that have been identified, some even protruding through the surface of the Earth and then suddenly you find you haven’t conclusively proven a thing.
However, if your reason here is to disprove the bible, what is your reason? For instance, I believe the bible, but I accept that other people believe their own theories on creation, life, etc. I however, don’t have a desire to disprove them and especially to try and ridicule them in the process? We should debate things respectfully, this after all is much healthier in the interests of exploring the many mysteries that surround us. We all share this space, so let’s share it mindfully.
Thanks for your post.
Howdy Watcher,
Fair question, and I agree. As a believer of many years, I’m really just interested in examining what I believe (or believed). If I ridicule, it’s hopefully not directed at a person but an idea.
But certainly there will be some people who see will interpret any criticism of their beliefs as disrespectful, and so I’m often on the defense. But then again, if someone doesn’t want to read criticisms of Christianity, they probably shouldn’t be here, they should be reading something safe… like one of Norman L. Geisler’s books.
Thanks for the feedback!
“The pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.” 1 Samuel 2:8
Usually when a building has pillars they are part of the building’s internal structure, not stilts upon which it teeters, like you seem to suggest. I’m surprised that this has escaped your notice entirely.
Word refers more to nations and societies (eg world champion), earth to the planet/physical geography. So it comes as no surprise to me that the world (nations, societies etc) rest upon the earth (with its tectonic plates, mantle etc).
“Shakes the earth from its place.” – Could this refer to its orbit or axis of rotation?
“Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?” – Could this allude to the gravitational forces that hold it in orbit, or just be plain rhetoric to highlight the fact that there are many things that are beyond Job’s understanding.
I don’t see any knockout punch here. More of a hollow clanging sound.
Howdy Ideket.
I think that would be pushing the translation quite a bit. But honestly, I think we could translate these verses (in hindsight) to mean all sorts of seemingly relative things.
Ditto my above statement.
God could’ve very easily pointed out the basics. He could’ve said, “Hey Job, was it you who sent the earth and planets going around the sun?” But He didn’t. The problem is just as much what God didn’t say, as what we can twist and turn what He did say into something relevant.
My reason for addressing this question is because the statement “He hangeth the earth upon nothing” is often used as a “knockout punch” by Christians to prove that God has a special insight into how the Universe functions. Certainly God could have delivered this kind of punch, if He actually existed and the Bible were actually His handiwork, but I don’t think this verse is the knockout punch some believers think it is.
Have a great day!
Well the understanding of men of old could certainly not be the same as modern men’s understanding. Based on this initial condition any speech made by these men would sound stupid in the ears of modern men, nevertheless we should consider that irrespective of individual’s understanding, we are still talking about a physical object. Interpretations is faulty at best in both parties, since 7 billion individuals cannot come to a single agreement on anything at all. So what we have left, are just a physical object and the words being used to describe some perceptions of it. The pillars of earth could conceivably be a description of the tectonic “plates” which supports the crust of the earth. There are 7 major plates around the globe and these are what are supporting the crust and surface of the earth and we could say that the pillars are shaky!! As to the planet itself, yes it hangs upon nothing in space. It just sits in a gravitational well and following the curvature of the well in its orbit. So i would think that there are two perspectives involved in those passages regarding the earth. The one about “hangs upon nothing” is about the planet whereas the pillars are obviously what they are “pillars” or tectonic “plates” supporting the crust of the earth.
I see no problem,the ideas that the earth hangs from nothing and the earth is set on pillars are not mututally exclusive. I agree that pillars could be a reference to tectonic plates-could be, not must be.After all, who is to say that the word “pillars” wasn’t used in reference to something as yet unknown to science?
Given that you run this blog, I would be unsurprised if you had come across this before, but here is an interesting study of science in the context of the Bible: http://www.one-gospel.org/thebible/i_thebible_02.htm
I understand this whole knock out punch thing that God could have said the earth goes around the sun. Though, did you know that God speaks in parables, double edge sword meanings? See you can’t just take a scripture and say well, here is a contradiction. Surely, your understanding of the same scripture is told different in my own understanding.
Did you know that the parables are spokened this way so his children will understand them. These are not ment for the unbelievers, it’s secrets are giving to his children.
If you really want to see what I see and hear what I hear, then take the simple step. Get to know the Lord, seek his kingdom and everything will be added unto you. Will it be to hard for you to do? I believe not since you are good in finding such scriptures as to these. I tell you what, I will pray for you in hoping that you seek the lord with your heart and mind, hungry and thirsty for the lord’s Jesus words.
To the apologists above…
See, that’s the point, though! If this book were written by the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent creator of the Universe THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR INTERPRETATION! The text would be simple, concise and PROFOUNDLY, verifiably true. And it is not. It is full of metaphor and parable for which the meaning changes with the time and culture of the people reading it. If the “truth” of the Bible were absolute, if God is unchanging and his moral law is absolute, then why do we have to account for context and culture in our interpretations of his supposed absolute and true word?
GREAT blog, by the way! I am thoroughly enjoying your take!
Thanks Anonymous,
I agree. How hard is it to say “So ya… your earth is shaped like a ball, and spins as it travels around the sun,” or something to that effect. If the one who inspired the Bible was the also the maker of the world, this should be pretty basic stuff.
Not only that, but he could inspire people from all over the world with this information, so when the eventually meet, they realize they all heard from the real God.
Exactly. Just to clarify 2 things… I am the “Anonymous” poster above (just created this wordpress account so, it’s like I’m real now!) and also when I said “If the “truth” of the Bible were absolute…” this is NOT to say that there is no truth or beauty in the Bible, because there certainly is. There are lessons that can be gleaned from those metaphors and parables and there is some beautiful imagery and prose, especially in the KJV… but then I find Tolkien and Anne Rice to be beautiful also, so…
Certainly. I still believe the golden rule is a good idea, even if God doesn’t exist. There’s also a lot of timeless advice about dealing with anger, seeking wisdom, avoiding quarrelsome women, and so on.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me John 5:39
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. I hope you get the message
I don’t think we’re talking about purely “secret” things here. We know these things today, they’re no secrets, but had God revealed them earlier, it would’ve been a clue that the scriptures weren’t just written by men.
We know these things today, they’re no secrets, -Sry to burst your bubble but you know nothing pertaining to scripture and deep truth- eg. This is a prophercy that has unfolded in our time.
Isaiah 4:1 And in THAT DAY seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Now unless you have a friend who has a deep knowledge of how to use the bible to interprete itself,this is just a mere text to you…Maybe you can do it, plz prove me wrong…
I wasn’t referring to scripture, I was referring to science.
We know many things today that we didn’t know then (DNA, germs, microscopic animals, orbits of the planets, etc.) If God had no reservations about revealing “secret” things like the fact that the earth hangs on nothing, (we’d find out soon enough, anyway), then He should also have no objection to demonstrating His knowledge in other areas, which would help support His case for being creator.
I have some Jewish friends with a deep knowledge of the Bible, but I think they’d disagree with your friends who also claim to have a deep knowledge of the Bible.
I have some Jewish friends with a deep knowledge of the Bible, but I think they’d disagree with your friends who also claim to have a deep knowledge of the Bible.-
and how would you know? FYI the bible alone interpretes itself. So your jewish friend is irrelevant unless he can interprete isaiah 4:1. You need to ,that way you will see a prophercy unfold. And Then we shall know how the quran or the book of morman stands.
Well well well-so my skeptical friend was a pentecostal. God is Good, I have been wondering why His majesty was asking me to hit you with Isaiah 4:1.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Let us use the bible to interprete.
A woman in the bible represents a church,
One man” =that would be Jesus Christ
our own bread- our own doctrine
our own apparel-our own righteousness
call by they name -call by Jesus’s name.
Before I translate-are you familiar with the great harlot of babylon, I’m leaning towards yes,because you were a pentecostal,surely you have read rev.
rev 17:4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries-this would be the wicked church.
In contrast we have
” Exod 26:31 You shall make a veil woven of BLUE, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. It shall be woven with an artistic design of cherubim. Notice a difference in dress? Its the Blue-(blue represents the laws-commandments numbers 15:38-39) the wicked church doesnt have blue….rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Here we have in the last days-now 7 churches ,shall take hold of one man(Jesus christ as their saviour) but they would use thier own doctrine,and their own righteousness, and only want to use the name jesus ,jesus so that they wont be ashamed, but in everything else have no affiliation with him.
Today you can see this in protestant churches,they call upon jesus ,jesus,but they dont want anything to do with his laws,or his robe of righteousness. They follow their own conscience and refuse to let the bible be their ultimate guide.They have even substituted another day of worship to the one that HE, Jesus Christ established,from creation. God choose Sat (7th day) they choose sun(day of the sun-pagan) God never abolished any of his commandments,yet they say they will keep 9 ,not ten.
Did Isaiah lie? As an expentecostal, Tell me the truth.
And that is why christ says they will say (matt 7:22 , Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?and I will say unto them- I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Now the reason for giving you these text is simple,the bible uses an account of two witnesses to establish a point 2 cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you, In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
At this point, I’m gonna to have to bow out, because we’ve strayed too far from the original topic… and, frankly, you seem too far gone to reason with.
But I wish you all the best in this life and the next.
I wish you all the best my friend,I leave you with this- When you see calamity after calamity increase and waxing worse, this country-protestant america will stretch out its hand to rome-they will UNITE church and state-and the persecution will begin.
I pray that you wont be decieved and will get an opportunity to come back To God.plz,put this in a place where you can laugh at me ,until it happens. I am sorry -i was not able to convice you in an orderly manner, but i know you will see the truth before the end.
Remember -the constitution forbids it, but it will happen. Wish you the best brother.
All the best to you, too. I’m guessing you’re Seventh Day Adventist?
That I am bro
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? … Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?” Job 38:4-6
God tells us what those foundations are in 1 Samuel:
“The pillars of the earth are the (LORDS), and he hath set the world upon them.” 1 Samuel 2:8
And again in Psalms 75:
“When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.”
Mr atheist -have you ever heard the term-”in his hands he got the whole world?
God is the one holding the earth,not some pillar-,the text is self explanatory-the pillars of the earth are the lords-
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. psalms 104:5
You claim the bible contradicts itself -but your lack of knowledge is stifling. E.G He hangs the world on nothing, But we do know that it is gravity…while you are looking at literal pillars for holding the earth, the gravitational force is Gods-He created it -so we can attribute it to him.
The question that none of you can never answer me is how Did Job know in the first place. Did he have a powerful telescope? And here is the master killer-40:22) 22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, . ..The circle of the earth – Or rather, “above” (על ‛al) the circle of the earth. The word rendered ‘circle’
(חוּג chûg) denotes “a circle, sphere,-contrary to atheist who believe that we (theist ) thought the world to be flat… Try as hard as you guys may-there is no doubt ,this is evidence that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Text for above .Isaiah 40:22) 22
Hi Xxodia,
Firstly, I’m curious where you managed to find “chûg” denoted as sphere. According to Strong’s, it is “circle, circuit, compass.” I was unable to find any sources that suggested a sphere shape.
Additionally, according to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia… “It is also used in the sense of surrounding territory, as in the expression ‘circle of Jordan’.” Isaiah seems to be referencing a general area, not a geometrical shape.
“…how Did Job know in the first place?”
What’s to know? There were only two possibilities, not millions, either the earth is supported by something, or it is not, and we could use the Bible to argue either position. Job is really giving us very little information here, even if he is entirely correct.
Furthermore, Job may not have had a telescope, but he had eyes and a brain. The sun and moon both appeared to hang on nothing, and clearly the sun would go down on one side of the earth, and come up on the other. It doesn’t really take a genius to figure out it must be going underneath, and there must not be anything blocking it’s path.
Technically speaking, scientists don’t even consider space to be “nothing,” even though it appears empty, it is still something.
You’re welcome to pick one or two science facts that the Bible seems to get correct and say “…there is no doubt, this is evidence that the Bible is the inspired word of God!” but if I show you several scientific facts in the Quran, you must also agree to draw the same conclusion. If not, then these “science facts” are not evidence of anything.
Do plz show me ,and my bro, this isnt a tip of the iceberg,its an ice pick. Do you want to know a secret, only the bible prophesizes, and it comes to pass. Only God knows the future. Now if you want to deny that then our reasoning is over.
1″The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall jostle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.” Nahum 2:3-4
(What Nahum saw was our modern form of transportation, the automobile. Nahum had never seen anything move faster than a horse.
He described what he saw as chariots that were like flaming torches (from the front the headlights of automobiles and from the rear taillights and the fire from the exhaust.)
Again ,you may state your opinion,-but remember that statement-they shall seem like torches. Now explain to me once again.
Sure,
I’ll see your automobile and raise you air traffic…
“And by the heaven full of tracks” (Quran 51:7)
The Quran also saw future crimes being solved by using fingerprints and DNA…
“Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing” (Quran 41:21)
Other religions do this, too. Joseph Smith predicted that the Mormons would “go to the Rocky Mountains and … be a great and mighty people.” They did, and today we have a Mormon running for president!
But I’m not about to rush out and become Christian, Muslim, or Mormon because of these seemly impressive predictions. There are reasons prophecy works, we read into these enigmatic prophetic statements what we want to see, and our brain struggles to make sense of them, like reading our horoscope, or seeing shapes in clouds.
I would recommend reading Question 32: “Can prophecies prove the Bible is true?”
quran 51:8 Most surely you are at variance with each other in what you say.
quran 41:21 And they will say to their skins, “Why have you testified against us?” They will say, “We were made to speak by Allah , who has made everything speak; and He created you the first time, and to Him you are returned
22 And you did not veil yourselves lest your ears and your eyes and your skins should bear witness against you, but you thought that Allah did not know most of what you did.
I dont know and care about Joseph smith, isaiah 4:1 deals with them. But clearly- you dont know jack,from jill- misinterpreting the quran, claiming a prophercy clearly when there is none….
I would recommend reading Question 32: “Can prophecies prove the Bible is true?”Yes-only God knows the future-
I would recommend you ask yourself,why would 40 different authors ,who have no claim to a book,over the span of 2-3000yrs have been writing in accordance with each other,none taking credit for his work but giving all the glory to God who rightly deserves it.
Lord of the rings has J. R. R. Tolkien, Harry potter has J.K. Rowling, and all major books and works of fiction,are credited to a name or author. Selfish man would never give anyone his credit. yet here is a problem, with the bible…can you explain ? I mean if it was written today ,the parrallelism would incur such heavy lawsuits..
Just have to say, Xxodia, reading your comments…
I hear Charlton Heston or Seinfeld’s caricature of J. Peterman. It’s very entertaining!
Hello,
I’ve been a Christian since April of this year (2012). I’ve really enjoyed your questions, I find them challenging and (for me) faith affirming. It reminds me of a verse:
“And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”” Mathew 22:37.
Loving God with your mind entails learning his word, and understanding it. That said, and with a quick prayer I’m ready to begin answering.
For to answer Job 9:6, let’s jump forward to Job 26:11
“The pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at his rebuke” Job 26:11
“Pillars of heaven”, (alternately translated as “Pillars that hold up the sky” HCSB) was a common idiom at the time for mountains. Now let’s jump back to Job 9, but start one verse prior at Job 9:5-6.
“5 he who removes mountains, and they know it not, when he overturns them in his anger, 6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;” Job 9:5-6
Note the commas. We never finish talking about mountains until the topical change at the end via a semi-colon. Pillars in this case are mountains.
Psalms are songs. They are like all songs, in that they stay on a specific topic. Psalm 75 is about how God Abases the Proud, but Exalts the Righteous.
“When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.” Psalm 75:3
The word used for “quake” is the word “muwg” (Strongs H4127) and it means “1) to melt, cause to melt” Both literally, and figuratively through fear or death. The English word “quake” only makes sense in the context of fear, or alarm, NOT in the context of shaking. So, with a more accurate translation:
“2 “When I select an appointed time, It is I who judge with equity. 3 “The earth and all who dwell in it melt; It is I who have firmly set its pillars. Selah. 4 “I said to the boastful, ‘Do not boast,’ And to the wicked, ‘Do not lift up the horn;” Psalm 75:2-4 (NAS)
Which ties into Samuel:
8 “He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap To make them sit with nobles, And inherit a seat of honor; For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.” 9 9 “He keeps the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a man prevail.” 1 Samuel 2:8-9
Both 1 Sam 2:8 and Psalm 75 are about God’s (final) judgment. Does it make sense that in the middle of a verse it would drastically change subjects and say “HEY! PILLARS!” and then resume the topic? No, they are all in the same topic. These pillars are clearly not literal given the subject matter of these chapters / verses. Instead it’s to reassure the reader that the God that created the earth and it’s inhabitance is in control at all times. (Psalms 75:3, 82:5, 104:5 and 1 Samuel 2:8).
As for Job 38:4-6 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? … Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?”
The first “foundations” is the word “yacad” (Strongs H3245) It means “1) to found, fix, establish, lay foundation”.
The second “foundations” is actually 2 words, “pinnah” (Strongs H6438) which means “corner”, and “eben” (Strongs H68) which means “stone”.
To better understand what is going on here let’s see the verses in their entirety, with a slightly easier to read translation (Heads up, this is God grilling Job):
“3 Get ready to answer Me like a man; when I question you, you will inform Me. 4 Where were you when I established the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who fixed its dimensions? Certainly you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 What supports its foundations? Or who laid its cornerstone” Job 38:3-6
These are not statements about the earth, but more so rhetorical questions (basically putting Job back in his place). I don’t believe it’s a stretch to think that God was speaking metaphorically and Job knew it.
“31 Can you fasten the chains of the Pleiades or loosen the belt of Orion? 32 Can you bring out the constellations in their season and lead the Bear and her cubs?” Job 38:31-32
Jews have always know that the stars are not real animals, beings or other gods. This was well established in the Pentateuch.
Read the rest of this chapter and you will see what I mean.
And so the answer: Clearly mountains, clearly God’s sovereignty, and clearly a metaphor.
Thank you again for your blog, and opening it up for people to respond.
Your brother in Christ,
-Christopher.
Hi Christopher, I am not the one who wrote the blog, but I have been subscribed to this page. I read your response in it’s entirety.
In your first counter-argument, you say it is clearly talking about mountains. Even if the writer was talking about mountains, *mountains do not “hold up” the sky*. So you either take that as an idiom or take that as fact. Do we know for sure? No. You say that was a common idiom at the time. Where do you get this information? It is impossible to know what people that at that time. It did not have to be an idiom at all. This is not a counter to your explanation, I am only trying to point out that your explanation is not the only logical one out there. Logically, there is no way to know.
Your second counter-argument says God is talking about his sovereignty. I agree. But I have no idea why this is a counter to the argument that the writer was talking about Earth’s pillars. This is clearly a huge gap in logic. God was boasting his sovereignty BY talking about the making of the Earth. Eg. I am powerful, I made the Earth by setting it’s pillars. Just as a mother would sometimes say to her children that they wouldn’t be alive if they didn’t come out of her belly.
Just because he was talking about his sovereignty doesn’t mean that he can’t talk about his making the Earth? I have no idea what field you are coming from here.
Similiarly on your last counter-argument you argue that the questions were not talking about the Earth, but rhetorical questions. Well of course they were rhetorical questions! But why does this mean that he wasn’t talking about the Earth? If a mother asks her child, “Do you rememeber when you came out of my belly?” It is going to be rhetorical, because of course a newborn baby doesn’t remember anything. Now does that mean she wasn’t talking about birth? No. She was clearly talking about birth, and that babies come out of the belly.
Just because a question is rhetorical doesn’t mean it is also metaphorical. There is no reason to believe that when he asked Job, “What supports it’s foundations?” he was talking metaphorically! Why? Why would he have a reason to speak metaphorically? He was obviously talking about the making of the Earth! It would be like if a mother said to her child, “Do you remember when you came out of my mouth?” And then saying that it was just metaphorical! It doesn’t make sense for a mother to say that unless a mother actually believed that, or unless that actually happened. (of course, suspend your belief for the purpose of this example)
I just don’t know how you can make these jumps in logic.
If you are truly open-minded, you are welcome to try and make a counter to the Bible verses explained here: http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/11/iron-chariots.html
Which I believe is solid proof against the inspiration of the Bible. Unless, of course, you make huge jumps in logic like you did here.
Garbonzo,
Thank you for replying to my post. I can certainly see where you are coming from as I did make quite a few leaps. Please allow me to clarify.
In response to your first point: While you are correct that “It is impossible to know what people [thought] at that time” in terms of an individual verse. We do however have an entire book (Job) with 42 chapters, and 1,070 verses to put that single verse into context. My jump between Job 26:11 and 9:6 was to show a consistent usage of language (though my delivery was lacking), more specifically the use of the word “pillars”. If you accept ether the 9:6 or 26:11 as mountains, you must accept the other. If you need additional convincing on this matter:
• The Greek historian Herodotus in wrote in Book 4:184,3 “The natives (Egyptians) say that this is a pillar of heaven. The mountain was so high up that they thought it reached heaven and that it held up the sky.” Born 484 BC, Died 425 BC. It’s no stretch of the imagination that in the 400 years the Hebrews lived with the Egyptians that there were significant cultural exchanges (manifested more vividly by the Hebrews worshiping the Egyptian gods noted in Exodus).
• Gesenius’s Lexicon (Used hand in hand with Strongs for de facto Lexicon definitions) H5981 (Pillars) “Used of the pillars of heaven (very high mountains), Job 26:11; of the earth, ibid. [Job] 9:6”
• HCSB Study Bible notes on Job 26:11 “God’s power is felt in His presents on the mountains [(pillars)], which stretch from deep below the sea (Jnh 2:6) into the sky like pillars (or standing columns; cp. 1Kg 7:15-21).
• NAS John MacArthur Study Bible notes on Job 26:11 “pillars of heaven. A figure of speech for the mountains that seem to hold up the sky (cf. Ps 104:32).”
It’s even difficult to defend this blogs interpretation of Job 9:6 as the cause of earthquakes, because all other accounts of where or what the earth sits on are integrated into the cause of the earthquakes. E.g.:
• India: 4 elephants that stand on the back of a turtle, the turtle is balanced on a cobra. Any animal moves, the earth shakes.
• West Africa: The earth is a flat disk, held up on one side by an enormous mountain and on the other by a giant. The giant’s wife holds up the sky. The earth trembles when he stops to hug her
• It goes on (17 other examples): http://www.sjusd.org/leland/teachers/sgillis/seismic/Earthquake_legends_article.pdf
IF Job was making the argument that the earth sat atop of pillars, the pillars would have been the mechanism of earthquakes. Thus Job 9:6 would have looked more like this:
“He shakes the pillars from their place and it makes the earth tremble”.
Instead of what Job actually wrote:
“He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble”. Job 9:6.
Not to mention that both Job 26:11 and 9:6 are in the context of the observable (through sense perception) acts/works of God. I don’t see any free standing pillars, do you? =D
I hope I’ve made it clear enough that the evidence points to only one answer for the book of Job, and that the probability of any other solution is null or close to it.
I would like to make a final note about your argument of logic. When making decisions humans gathering all choices/options then reduce. Illogical options are first removed, leaving only the logical ones remaining. Those logical options are then reduced again to a single choice/option with the highest perceived probability of success. Your argument of logic was seemingly missing that final piece. Without it, you open yourself up to violating the Law of Non-contradiction in your own mind on a daily basis.
Thank you again for the time you put into replying to my post. I will respond to your second and third points soon to add clarification on my part.
If you’re in America, I hope you had a wonderful Thanks Giving! If you are elsewhere, I hope you had a great weekend. =]
Your brother in Christ,
-Christopher.
Hi Christopher,
Job could have been talking about mountains, but it seems many ancient peoples thought that mountains WERE pillars that held up the sky. God could have easily cleared up this error. (in addition to making sure that his book had all sorts of accurate statements about the creation of the Earth and the universe)
“Your argument of logic was seemingly missing that final piece. Without it, you open yourself up to violating the Law of Non-contradiction in your own mind on a daily basis.”
If you can explain this, that’d be great. =)
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
Mike
Hey Mike!
I had a quick second so I thought I’d respond, and thanks for the reply! I did have a really great Thanks Giving thank you. Hands down, it’s my favorite holiday.
In response to your first statement… Yes! Absolutely He could have.
In response to your second statement… My point was only that given 2 logical options that are mutually exclusive (I,e. You cannot have pillars be mountains AND be the physical support columns of the earth at the same time and in the same relationship), you must chose one or the other. Accepting both as logically ‘true’ and not further refining your options down to a single choice would be a violation of the law of non-contradiction. You must weigh the evidence of each option and make a determination from there. Ignoring the probability of one option being true over the other despite the evidence in the contrary is to willfully choose ignorance. The “on a daily basis” part was hyperbole. =]
Mike. Thank you again for the reply. Being able to talk to you, and the author of this blog is truly a special thing, and I honestly cherish it.
Your brother in Christ,
-Christopher.
When I first read this post by the 500 Questions, I did not think it was among the best in this blog. The entire question seemed somewhat insubstantial. Now however, as I have read the apologetic comments on it, I realize that this actually is an issue. It is as if the Christians reading this blog were somehow unable to read the entire post abowe.
The entire point of the post was that no matter how much apologetics and better translation is put on these verses, they do not become any better “inside information” about the state of the world, or the universe. It really does not matter wether the pillars of the earth were meant to be meaning the tectonic plates, some yet unknown method of upholding the earth, or simply mountains. All of these explanation models are either meaningless, or still fit into the Jim Jeffries description of the Bible as a book that has very little of anything in it further than five miles of the writer (as he mentions, that the Bible does not ever mention kangaroos).
Now, for example mentioning and describing kangaroos would have been a lot more compelling “inside information” in comparrison to such claims as the earth hangs on nothing, or that there are something called the pillars of the earth. And even the kangaroos would not have made it plausible alone. But there are nothing even to compare to the kangaroos in the Bible, are there? As the 500 Questions explained the comment that earth hangs on nothing, as it does, is not very convincing “inside information” regardless, if there ever were any comments about the pillars.
Even if the Bible claimed the earht is an orb, it would not be very convincing. That information would have been obtainable only a bit further away, than the five miles mentioned by Jim Jeffries, in Egypt where the local scientists had allready established the shape of the earth and even its circumference during the Hellenistic period. But if the Bible was supposed to convince us of the special nature as a word of a god, it could have actual “inside information”, that science would have confirmed later. Infact it would only have that sort of information and not a bunch of typical folklore, today only excusable as such streched metaphors of the state of the earth and universe, they no longer have any real value as information and are reduced to gibberish.
What is also very interesting in the comment section here, is that the fact that the Bible makes some equally hazy predictions as the Koran, or Nostradamus, for that matter, is brought up as some sort of example of the exeptional nature of the Bible in comparrison to other alledgedly divine sources. No matter, how plausible you personally find the Bible predictions or metaphorical descriptions of the form of nature, there are plenty of other people who find metaphors and predictions by other religions just as much reliable as you do. The fact that some people find any particular religious text plausible does not count as any sort of evidence for it actually being true and divinely inspired, but the fact that a lot of people who have read it and do not find it plausible in that sense, actually refutes the (rather slim) possibility, that it actually was a message by a benevolent all-mighty to all of humanity. It is not in any way special in comparrison to other such man made scriptures/traditional stories, if it has no more power to convince people. That is the logic of it.
Funniest part of the matter is that the Bible is supposedly the only concrete method of communication between mankind and an alledged creator of the universe and what is also alledged is that this entity inspired the original writers of this book, but obviously this same god has been quite absent from any of the translation process, since so much misunderstanding of what god meant seems to revolve around how the book was translated. Rather careless of the alledgedly omnipotent and benevolent god, would you not say?
Merry X-mass, or whatever you celebrate on winter solstice.
You said it better than I could. Never even heard of the kangaroo thing. Very nice. In addition I would like to add to the end of your last paragraph, that not only is/was he absent from the translation and interpretation process, but also the copying process; as there are many many known copyist errors in the Bible. There should be no errors at all in the work of the creator.
@ Mike. Yes, would it not be a bummer to end up in eternal torture in a lake of fire, only to realize, that the reason for “rejecting salvation” was because of a misspelling/miscopying/misinterpretation/misstraslation, that made you skeptical of the “absolute truth” in the original text? Wich of course, would have convinced you of its self evidence, if only you had been proficient in ancient Greek and bothered to read the Bible instead of reading up on Xenofon, Socrates or Homeros? Yet, this is what one also has to believe, if one thinks, that dissbelief leads to hell. But heaven will be full of guys who were scared by the mere chance of Pascal’s wager, and “chose” to believe just in case it might all be true and happened to be born into the right culture to be subjected to the correct choise between all the different gods in their – just in case – belief.
The modern pharisees are so funny…
Couldn’t ancient people have thought of the mountains as holding up the sky? It’s a possibility. Only would a person who has been to the very peak of a mountain know that is not the case, and even if there were those who did that in ancient times, only his testimony alone might not persuade the mainstream theory. Just a thought.
Speaking of earth’s crust during an earthquake, the bible describes it “like a carpet rolled under your feet ” as mentioned in the book of Revelations.
so to refute your statement, God through the bible has desbride the tectonic plate long before modern geologist invented their theory.
Hi ftcardenas,
With all due respect, I checked and the Bible is not given any credit for the discovery of plate tectonics. One would think, if the Bible had clearly described the theory, scientists today would say, “The Bible described it perfectly, we just needed to confirm it!”
Back in the 1800′s, we had no idea about plate tectonics, but Christian geologists were not pushing for the theory based on Biblical claims. If the Bible did not describe it with enough clarity for us to understand it in advance, and the only way to see it in the Bible is after the discovery, then the Bible obviously wasn’t describing it very well, and more than likely we are reading it into the Bible with the benefit of hindsight.