I’m an anonymous 40 year old homosapien residing in Northern California. I have a Christian wife, two wonderful children, and a dog.
By day, I’m a mild mannered former Christian (I was Pentecostal for roughly 30 years), and by night I’m a veracious skeptic looking down every corner and back alley for solid evidence supporting God and/or Christianity.
My Blog
Admittedly, I’m playing devil’s advocate with these questions. My objective is to challenge the God hypothesis with a multitude of random skeptical questions to see if it still holds up in comparison to a natural explanation.
In most posts, I try to answer the same question using both Christian and natural explanations. There are often wide chasms between these two viewpoints, but I believe the bulk of the evidence must surely point more strongly in one direction than the other.
Personally, I find these questions fascinating, and I spend a fair amount of time researching and writing about each one (I would rather write one good post than 10 mediocre ones). I try to make each post honest, sincere, concise, factual, entertaining, and educational.
However… if you take religion too “religiously,” you’re going to have a bad time; and if you don’t like religion being discussed with occasional humor and irreverence, you’re going to have a bad time; and if you’re easily disturbed, you’re going to have a bad time.
My Qualifications
I do not claim to be an expert in everything, though I do try to get all my facts straight (lest I unleash the wrath of the Internets). I do seek the qualified counsel of experts on various sides of each debate, while remaining well aware that the reason such debates exist at all is because some of these “qualified experts” must be wrong.
If you must be a genius or an expert in religion to find God, then we’re all in serious trouble. Hopefully, an honest evaluation of the evidence will lead us to the truth. If it doesn’t, then God has designed a very misleading universe.
I also don’t care much for pretentiousness. While a few ten-dollar words might help me sound more convincing and intelligent, I’d rather speak clearly and plainly, because I’ve never been moved by an argument that I couldn’t understand.
My Philosophy
If I only have one life to live, I want to spend it laughing and enjoying it as much as possible, but I also want to try and gain an accurate understanding of reality… whenever I’m not too busy.
Enjoy!
Just read q15. Feel free to use what is below as you see fit. It was a youtube response that was ignored.
No actual moonlight Job 25:5 — This verse also says the stars are not bright. The following verse makes it clear this is poetry. God is saying that the moon and stars are insignificant to His own majesty.
Light travels Job 38:19 — This verse treats both light AND darkness as mysterious yet concrete entities that dwell in particular regions. There is no sense of light as rays or darkness as simply the absence of light.
Stars cannot be counted Gen 15:5, 22:17, Jer 33:22 — Hardly an earth shattering observation. I’m aware the Greeks underestimated their number but the “commonsense” observation is that they are numerous.
Cosmic light Gen 1:3, – Not sure what the point is here. It just says God separated light from darkness. Again darkness here is not just the absence of light. How could God have spoken if there was no medium for the sound to travel through?
Ps 74:16 — It just says God made the sun and the moon.
Entropy increases Ps 102:25-27 — Another obvious observation: things don’t last. This is not a complete definition of the law of entropy. The fact that entropy exists at all suggests there is no central, organising intelligence — or did that all happen because a man and a woman ate magic fruit?
Condensation Ecc 11:3 – Interestingly my translation says the clouds are FULL of water, not that they CONSIST of water vapour. No understanding of condensation is necessary to observe that rain comes from clouds.
Pleiades & Orion constellations Job 38:31 — Not sure what the point is here. It’s just a description of constellations. There is no sense that stars are balls of gas or that what we see as constellations is just an accident of orientation. Taken literally the constellations have nothing to do with our modern understanding of astronomy — Orion has cords.
Mountains in the sea Jonah 2:3-6 – This doesn’t say there are whole mountains under the sea. It says he reached the BOTTOM of the mountains. This is just poetry.
Sea springs Job 38:16, Pro 8:28 — Easily put down to a commonsense speculation that the sea’s water must come from somewhere. Careful reading reveals these springs are thought to be the SOURCE of the sea’s water. Notice in Proverbs it says they are FIXED in place.
Submarine canyons II Sam 22:16 — My translation says “valleys”: a simple conclusion from a common sense grasp of topography: the deepest parts of the ocean. Not sure what to make of God’s nostrils here.
Ocean Currents Ps 8:8 — Hardly a surprising insight from a Mediterranean culture.
Water cycle Ec 1:6-7 — An interesting speculation. The impression I get here is that the winds are set on a simple, circular course. Not true. The whole point of Ecclesiastes is that things don’t change.
Job 36:27-28 — Impressive. The model here is probably very simple. Water falls as rain. It must get back up there somehow. There is no suggestion here of evaporation or the role of the sun in this process. Verse 29 is interesting. Thunder is God throwing his weight around.
Electric currents Job 38:35 — It just says that God throws lightening bolts. No insight into their nature.
why are you spouting off half trues, and twisting the eamns of scripture to suit your philosophy. On subject matter as important as this I would double check my “facts” before talking loco about the one true God. because even though you don’t believe in him. He believes in you. I’ll be praying for you. hoply not to reap hot coals on your simple little head.
Regards,
TImothy
It’s been almost a month since your last post. Are you coming back? I just found this blog and already love it!
Hi Ty, and thanks.
Yes, just been busy with some other projects lately. But I’m just about finished with my next post on prophecy… which I predict will be very interesting.
ah, so you do have a Christian background! ha, i knew it…I still think you should come and check out Bethel church here in Redding, CA. despite what you already think you may know, or not know about God. It maybe the very thing you need, though I can completely understand if you take the whole, been in church 30 years stance, why would going to another church help. Who knows, maybe you’ve been at Bethel for 30 years! Doubtful. I am a struggling christian man, also a skeptic, with an atheist girlfriend, two dogs, lol.
Lol, I actually have family that go to that church.
But ya, I don’t know that it would make much difference at this point. I spent many years as a spirit-filled holy roller, and have seen a lot of what that life has to offer. But I do remember how church made me believe I felt God’s presence. But I’d say it was a faith based more on emotion than evidence.
Eventually, especially as I started to doubt, I become suspicious of how outdated and one-sided the church model was. The preacher speaks, you listen — it’s literally a one-sided debate. All you hear is why you’re right to believe, and why others are wrong. In all my years in Church, not one atheist was ever invited to speak to us or rebut what the pastor was saying. Church is a place for people who’ve already decided what they want to believe, and not for those who want to have their conclusions seriously challenged.
So I had to stretch out, stop the one-sided programming, start asking questions, start listening to both sides. I started by spending my Sunday mornings watching Christian debates (Kent Hovind to start), where I could hear from both sides. I eventually read my first book by an actual atheist (not just a Christian book explaining why atheism is wrong). I remember I objected to everything he had to say… at first.
what a small world
Anyways, yeah I know about Kent Hovind, and he used to interest me at first about his theories. My old college buddy in had all his CD’s. Anyways, I’m afraid I’m already on the path you started on, but I can’t seem to separate from my powerful conversion…I still attend Bethel every few months or so.
Honestly, I don’t know how anyone ever loses their faith, religion (all religions) can have such a profoundly strong hold on people. I’m not nearly as strong a Christian as some of my friends and family are, and it still took me over 2 years of solid questioning before I could even consider that Jesus may not be who I thought he was. (Ugh, that was such a depressing time in my life.)
Anyway… I still sometimes have doubts about my doubts, and I suppose that’s why I started asking questions. I’m still wanting to ask that one question that makes all of Christianity make sense again.
So I got into a serious debate last night with my fiance’s family. You may or may not have heard about the comment that was made by Richard Mourdock. If not here is a direct quote “And I think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.” Now to me that is the same thing as saying that it is God’s will that a woman was raped. Too make a long story short, this comment was brought up during our conversation last night. I basically said that this is proof of God’s immorality. I was told that Mourdock was just stating what his religion believes to be true. I said if he was just making a statement about his religions dogma, he was actually inaccurate. He should have said that God says it is acceptable to rape a woman, as long as you are at war with her nation (a war ordered by God of course), you take her to your home, burn her clothes, shave her head, trim her nails, give her a month to mourn her family, and finally marry her. Needless to say, all “hell” broke loose. I was told I was going to Hell myself. My response to that was that if in order to get into heaven I had believe everything the bible says, including Deuteronomy 21:10-14, then I would rather be in Hell with Satan. I would not baandon my morality for my own salvation. I made a few more good points after that, but I was ultimately told to drop, because for every question they answered, I would come up with two more. I said you are correct, I could do this all night. Somehow that is my fault. Sorry not my fault their holy book is full of glaring inaccuracies, outright contradictions, and rampant immorality. You may not agree with everything I said to them, at least I am not sure if you would, but I just wanted to thank you. Your blog was helpful in background information for the debate. I told them that before I left, that it was not my intention to offend anyone, or to even change their beliefs. I just enjoy a good debate. But somehow these people seem to really get riled up when you bring their faith into question. If their fatih is vulnerable to my amateur scrutiny, it would never survive some of the difficult times that have happened in the past and most likely will happen some time in the future (no prophecy here
just common sense lol). Sorry for the long message but I wanted to convey the entire situation to you one so I could offer my thanks, but two so I could ask you this question. Was anything I said either incorrect or inappropriate?
Hi Aradia,
Well, I’m no expert in relationships, but here’s my advice: Apologize to your future in-laws, admit that you were being insensitive (even if you didn’t think so), and joke that you hope they will still allow you to see their daughter. Here’s why…
Even if you’re 100% correct, the odds of any sincere Christian ever conceding defeat is practically nil, so it’s just an exercise in futility. It accomplishes nothing and only makes them angry with you. Also, the value of a good relationship with your in-laws far outweighs winning a debate over God’s morality. Challenging someone’s religion, especially when it defines their entire world view, is like messing with an emotional time-bomb — they’re not going to give up easily, and if they do it will likely take months, or years.
Any desire to challenge one’s faith must come from within. You kinda have to feel them out to see where they’re at with their beliefs. If they’re closed off, there’s little you can say that will change anything.
So typically, I won’t broach the issue, but if someone asks me directly what I think, I would tell them. But usually when someone does ask me about my beliefs, it’s because they want to convert me to theirs, not because they’re honestly interested in changing theirs. But it’s not really the unbeliever’s job to go around witnessing to people about unbelief.
If you MUST discuss religion, I find it’s best to talk about a religion or god you both disagree with. For example, instead of saying, “Who do you think first thought up God, and why do you think people believed him?” you could say “Who do you think first thought up Zeus, and why do you think people believed him?” People aren’t nearly as defensive about gods they don’t believe in, so it doesn’t throw up any walls, but the logic and problems are often exactly the same!
As far as God’s immorality goes, I’d agree with you. There’s the rape example you stated (where Jews took women from families they’d killed), and another where rape is allowed if you pay the father off in silver. But my favorite is Zechariah 14:2, where God says He’s going to send rapists upon the Jews…
Gotta love God. If this is how He treats the people He loves, I’d hate to see heaven.
Thank you very much for your honest comments. And you are probably right, I am not gonna get anywhere with them and probably just cause more problems than it would be worth. Thank you again though.
Any time.
I am the female version of you I am thrilled to have found this!!
Hi Lisa, glad you liked it. Feel free to subscribe, share your thoughts on the other questions, challenge my assumptions, etc.
Wow, thanks for this site. Your writing and research is more then impressive to me. Went through period of time where we read to our son from Bible and struggled through some stories. Finally, wordlessly, we just stopped. After enough sermons on the one sin, homosexuality, and looking at my then, almost teen son, and the faces of a number of the young people in the pews, we quit going. Kids were too young for this and if they were sexually confused, my goodness, what they most went through. Enough of this, my question is really a request. Some time in future if you have inclination to do so, would really enjoy your thoughts on Augustine, Constaintine, Luther, and Calvin. Even prior to Constaintine, to the N.T., does not seem like ever a united religion. With Constaintine forward, wow, the evil they seem to have caused just chills me. Calvin today and what Luther’s writings did from his time to the Holocaust. And they are still quoted today so much. Would love blog from you on this however you wished to approach it. The questions that always play on my unresearched mind are what would have happend to Christianity without Constaintine, if these folks had the Spirit of God within, God help us each and everyone, what play on the human psyche to cause harm and to objectify others did they have, etc.. Any approach you took would be fascinating to this one reader.
Peace to you and to all and thanks for your blog.
FFTW
Hey Anonymous,
I went through some of that with my kids, too.
I don’t know if I’ll address Augustine, Constaintine, Luther, and Calvin directly, but I do plan on posting something on the evolution of religion. Put simply, it seems to me that, over time, religion evolves very much like a living thing, constantly adapting to deal with new problems (like living things must adapt to new environments).
A problem arises, and followers like the aforementioned put forth new ideas to solve them, and the most sound ideas become a new part of this evolving religion. The most bullet-proof answers seem to be those that can never be disproved. And at times, it seems to me like our faith is built on a foundation of a thousand unfalsifiable claims.
Certainly if there was a God, and his same holy spirit was in all of us, we should all come the same conclusions when it comes to religion and the Bible. There should be no Protestants or Catholics, only followers of God’s spirit, who agree on everything, but such is not the case.
Anyway, I apologize if that’s a little vague, it’s a work in progress.
Take care!
Sometimes when I post a reply it appears right away, and other times I post a reply and it never appears. Do you know why that might be?
Hi Matthew. For unknown reasons the spam filter is flagging some of your posts (hopefully it will learn). I usually check the spam folder at least once a day, so if you don’t see your post right away, just give it some time.
Hi 500 questions, i just want you to know that for a period of months i was having some problems with aspects of Christianity and some doubts (around the beginning of the year). I found this site about 6 months ago and read it all in one go, and well, by now im a complete atheist ex-christian. This is probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, it surprises me, but becoming an atheist (something i used to absolutely despise – i was a fundamental protestant/conservative christian) has made my life so much more free. Christianity was a shackle on my mind, and a bonus of being atheist is you don’t have to abide by its stupid rules anymore.
Sometimes i still cant believe i got to where i am. My christian self would have hated me. Your site was a very large contribution though. It was the turning point, the nail in the coffin. One night i re-read through the whole thing and said for the first time “I don’t believe in God anymore”. Christian one day, atheist the next.
Most of my family are still Christian though and i don’t really know how im going to tell them. I just know that one day i will probably have to tell them, and a debate will be inevitable. Sorry for asking, but does your christian wife know? What about your kids or rest of your family?
But thanks for the wonderful, well written and well researched site.
Hi Shaun,
Thanks for reading and your feedback. I’m never really sure if it’s all worth it, but the occasional positive feedback helps keep me going… that and my tenacious curiosity.
Losing ones faith can be a big deal and take a lot of time to adjust, it can be both good and bad. But I know what you mean, I never wanted to be a non-believer and never thought my seeking answers would lead me to the conclusions they did, yet here I am!
To answer your question, yes, my wife does know. In fact, we just got into a big tiff about it a week ago. She got very angry (I’m talkin’ red-in-the-face and yelling angry), and said I was deceived by Satan and I was going to hell. So… uh, ya… it’s not easy having the ones you love look at you in that way. Her religion has a strong hold on her, and she doesn’t share my sense of curiosity. But other than that, she really is a great wife and mother, but it can be very challenging at times.
But I question the need for non-believers to “come out” to believers. Firstly, because it’s not really the non-believer’s job to proselytize (as much as they may want to), and secondly, if you know you’re not going to change someone’s mind, what are you really accomplishing? The generation of anger and feelings of hostility, disappointment and/or animosity toward you? Is it worth it? Someone once joked that you should lie to religious people about your faith, because religious people prefer comforting lies.
You remember how you viewed atheists when you were Christian, do you really want others to look at you that way? But then again… there is the whole principal of the matter, and standing up for what you believe in, and being a good example of what a non-believer can be. It’s a tough call.
Well the thing is though, i wont and don’t want to lead a Christian life any more. I don’t want to marry a Christian and i certainly don’t want to raise my kids christian (i dont have any yet, but i probably will have them). And my politics have changed as well. There is quite a lot of fundamental stuff that has changed, and my family will pick up on this (they will definitely pick up on me raising kids non-christian). So i think whether i want to or not, they will find out someday. And i do agree with your point of being a good example of a non-believer. I’m not sure how i want to go about this, it could tear my family apart. I also think i do have a reasonable chance of changing their mind if am convincing enough. This is what it is hinging on, i don’t want to tell them, but not change their minds.
But for me, Christianity was a negative experience, even though i didn’t know it when i was christian. So i do have a nagging desire to turn other Christians non-christian to “save” them. Because all that religious stuff they are doing, the life, the morals, the fear of doing the right thing, is for nothing, its a waste, it would be better if they could live their life in a naturalistic way.
Like you, i am also incredibly interested in this topic, and it occupies a lot of my thought and time (I think it does for most ex-Christians, more so than people who were never religious). I guess i just want to say whats on my mind, because there is no one i can talk to about this stuff. Most people i know are Christian, its stiffening. I also love debating (and arguing), so i do have a big desire to tell people. I think smart, logical Christians can be turned if you present enough evidence and argument. They just haven’t heard the full argument, because they aren’t around non-Christians, and hearing it from someone they know was a good christian would be compelling.
But 500 questions is definitely worth it, please keep up the good work.
Thanks Shaun. Let me know how it goes if you ever do come out. I’m always here if you need to talk.
I find websites like these, debates about God, and things of the like so conflicting.
While I have this desire to help and inform people that I believe otherwise have yet to hear from a Christian that tries to actively communicate with God on a daily basis in some way or form and will seek answers from Him, I too am aggravated by these questions and lack of reverence for God.
I often seek for someone of the faith to properly represent the truth yet I am often met with people who don’t have God speaking through and as such are ignorant of things and provide unintentionally false information. And while I would enjoy greatly to type my knowledge in an attempt to share it and educate people, more often than not, God does not tell me to get into these conversations. As a result I too say the wrong things or simply don’t have the knowledge required to answer certain questions as I am not doing it through God, but rather my own limited intelligence. Since I am talking about God yet do not have His spirit leading, when I fail to give the people what they need to be changed, I end getting even more aggravated on top of being sorely discouraged.
I guess in all this, I would urge those skeptical and inquiring to factor into your conclusions whether or not the person you are speaking to is speaking God’s truth and has the Holy Spirit with them. Because certainly if they were speaking the God-given truth, it would speak to your heart and you would be able to recognize it as the undeniable truth.
*For those not overtaken by doubt and still trying to hold on, it would be helpful to see this.
http://bibletopix.blogspot.com/search/label/Doubting%20God
I anticipate some may look at the website’s scriptures only to scrutinize them, but its a good reference site anyway.
Jesus is still here for anyone who seeks Him.
Thanks Azexelai.
As a Christian, I once wanted God to use my talents. I thought maybe I’d create YouTube videos and point out flaws in the atheist way of thinking. Maybe I’d show people that it took less faith to believe in God than not to.
But the more I learned, like you, the more frustrated I became. At first I thought it was because I just didn’t understand God or the Bible well enough, and that I needed to learn more from Biblical apologists. So I did. But eventually, I learned that I was frustrated because I loved the idea of God, and heaven, and church, and eternal life… but I couldn’t logically defend any of those ideas. In fact, I couldn’t even prove that they just weren’t ideas that people made up and passed down for thousands of years. I couldn’t defend these ideas because I was (most likely) on the losing side of the debate.
I hear you saying, “I often seek for someone of the faith to properly represent the truth,” but what is the truth? And how did you determine it was true? It sounds like you’ve already decided what you want to be true, and you’re now seeking people who will agree with you (aka “Confirmation Bias”). This is entirely normal, and I’m guilty of that too, but logic dictates that we can’t get to truth unless we’re willing to listen to all sides of the debate.
Your measure for determining truth seems to be that “it would speak to your heart,” but I can give you many examples of other religions that speak to people hearts. There are many sincere Mormons out there who believe God has told them personally that the Book of Mormon is true. If you disagree with these religions, then either God is contradicting Himself, or this isn’t a very reliable way of determining truth. It takes more than just a feeling to get to truth, it takes logic, reason and evidence.
A LOT of Christian websites I visit don’t allow comments, I do. Why? Because I’m not afraid to be proven wrong. If I can’t defend my point, I should change it. If you can enlighten me and show me reasonable evidence to the contrary, I would be forever in your debt.
Live long and prosper.
I’ve always felt that it would be wonderful to believe in an all powerful and loving God, as well as heaven and eternal life. In fact the majority of atheists I’ve met (and anyone not completely sure what they believe) aren’t actually like the typical religion hating image that’s been made for them. Who doesn’t want to truly believe that there is a God who would do anything for them, and they are going to live forever after death in heaven? For me, the other side of it that holds me back is, Why praise a God that automatically sends those who don’t believe in Him to hell? Why call God benevolent, loving and just when unbelievers are without fail labelled evil while believers are the righteous? And why worship a God who puts the most emphasis on glorifying Himself, instead of actually doing what’s morally right?
In all honesty, I’m not an atheist, I’m a Buddhist, though not everyone considers Buddhism to be a religion. (Just to clear it up for people, Buddha is not a God, and there is no worship in Buddhism in the same way as in other theist religions). Im happy to be one because Buddhism is one of the oldest existing religions, and is able to safely say that it has never fought a religious war.
In my opinion, I think religion is not really a problem, it brings people together, until it starts condemning others (which unfortunately many religions do). It’s then that it does the opposite, and the problems start to spring up. When people get defensive about their beliefs, even people you are close to can tell you that you’re going to hell, which would hurt.
500Q, I’m interested in why you started to question. There aren’t many people who are bold enough to doubt and then leave their faith, especially when it’s how they’re brought up. Was there a catalyst for you that started all this?
Good work on your blog! =)
Nicely stated, Alpha.
My questioning goes way back. I think it started with me asking my mom why the Mormons were wrong and the Pentecostals were right. That led me to read books critical of the Mormon faith, which then led me to read books critical of the Pentecostal faith, which then led me to read books critical of faith in general.
But I agree that religion has the potential to divide people, it’s now the one big dividing factor between me and my wife, and my family. We still get along, but it’s always there. Religion works as long as everyone agrees to have the same one, otherwise one group tends to believe their knowledge is superior to the other (causing them to look down on each other, like we Pentecostals looked down on Mormons and vice versa).
One of my favorite hymns as a Christian was Amazing Grace. It was only after questioning my faith that I realized the subtext of the song implies that people who don’t believe in God are lost, blind, and wretched. I rather resent that… I don’t feel like a lost, blind wretch, and I don’t think it’s very nice to tell people that’s what they’ll become if they ever lose their faith.
Take care!
Hello anonymous 40 year old homosapien,
I stumbled across you blog looking at your question about the old earth verse new earth. You have an interesting blog, some of which I have read while I was thinking this was someone looking for truth. I tired of reading when I realized that you have finished your search for truth and were now only trying to confirm your own present beliefs … er maybe non-beliefs. No offence, just my conclusion.
Your questions are questions that I think all Christians should ask, but the conclusion you have made is not the one I would hope for. Because you have concluded that religions are wrong you have also concluded that the Bible must be wrong as well and thus your fatal mistake. I will try to keep this short and with only a couple of Biblical quotes.
(Will you burn in hell for it? No, because there is no such place and the Bible does not teach it, and neither will you go to Heaven because we were never promised salvation in Heaven, but I digress.)
For instance, the young earth verses old earth question. I agree with your answer that for everything to be created less than 10,000 years ago makes God a creator of confusion. However, that does not negate the authority of the Bible and the account in Gen 1. First of all in Gen 1:2 where it says, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” does not contradict scientific evidence known today. I am not a Hebrew scholar but anyone can go to a concordance to see that the word “was” is also translated “became”, “become” “should be” as well as “was”. Why not replace was with became? And the earth became without form…. So the earth pre-existed this time period and “became without form and void.” Then about 6K years ago God recreated the surface of the earth and the rest of the account remains as literal as it reads.
So your answer is right and shows forth the facts, but it does not contradict what the Bible actually says. Somehow Christendom seems to think that salvation is something instantaneous with sincerity without obtaining the truth of the Bible. John 4:23, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” Most of Christianity thinks spirit here is the Holy Ghost (no such thing as ghost, but I digress again) but it is a quote from the O.T. where Joshua says in Joshua 24:14, “Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.” Truth to God is as important as sincerity. When a Christian is shown from the Bible something that contradicts what he/she believes, they will dismiss it off hand. They are not looking for truth and really, how sincere can that be who dismisses the teachings from the very foundation to which they claim salvation?
There are Biblical answers to all your questions but one must have some degree of appreciation for the authority of the Bible before he can appreciate the answers to these questions. I am afraid you have thrown out the baby with the wash.
Bob
Hi Bob, I appreciate the response, and no offense taken.
I do realize that it’s innate in our human nature to want to make up our minds about things, and then we confirm them with our own biases (believers and non-believers alike). So while I’ll admit my scales have tipped to the side of disbelief, I still try to look at most questions from a Christian perspective and ask myself, “What if this IS true, and is truly evidence of God’s existence and the truth of Christianity?” But when the answers consistently fail to yield impressive results, it’s difficult to not to think you’ve spotted the trend. Still, I never know. Sometimes I begin looking into a question and I start having doubts about my doubts, but upon closer investigation I usually find myself agreeing with the skeptics, and find it is the believers that have gone out of their way to confirm their own bias, not the skeptics.
You’ve said that in order to appreciate the Bible’s answers one must first have appreciation for the authority of the Bible. My two-part response would be: 1) I once had plenty of appreciation and respect for the Bible, but still came to doubt it, and 2) WHY should we have an appreciation for the Bible? Believers in the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an may make the exact same argument. Why is one more special than the other? Perhaps we need to appreciate THESE books before we find the answers we seek.
By first making the presumption that the Bible should be seen as authoritative, we concede to allow the Bible (or the Book of Mormon, or the Qur’an) to temper our bias and dictate our world view. Before we treat any book as authoritative, we must have EXTREMELY good reason for doing so. Of course, believers in ALL THREE of these books will say they have such reasons, which logically tells me that they don’t, and I should be skeptical of such reasons.
Thanks again!
But if you would only believe in the authority of Twilight, you would then see that vampires must be real. All evidence to the contrary is a mind trick by the evil Volturi. PROVE ME WRONG!
Aradia, it is not for me to prove you wrong; you have to decide that for yourself. If you want to believe in fiction and your hope is fiction then your ultimate reward is fiction. I think if you are really looking for truth, wanting to have someone prove you wrong means you believe you already have the truth, even if it is fiction, and no one will be able to tell you other wise. Good luck.
How do you decide whether a book is considered to be fiction. Granted, Twilight is easy, you can just ask Stephanie Meyers. But when the author is dead, we have no idea whether or not the book was intended to be an entertaining story, or an account of true events. What criteria do we use to make this determination. Let’s suppose the author of Twilight was unavailable to determine whether or not this book is fact or fiction. Well Twilight does take place in real life locations, just like the Bible. Twilight contains fantastical elements, just like the Bible. Twilight provides a path to eternal life, just like the Bible. Twilight provides a reasonable explanation for the lack of real world proof of its message, just like the Bible. You could argue that the majority of the people in the world agree that Twilight is fiction, but that can be said of the Bible. Assuming every single one of the 2.3 billion Christians in the world actually agreed on the literalness of the Bible (which we know is not true), that still leaves approximately 4.7 billion people that think it is a work of fiction, JUST LIKE TWILIGHT. Therefore, if you call Twilight a book of fiction based on this criteria, you must also logically come to the same conclusion that the Bible is a work of fiction. And if you say to just have faith in God that the Bible is true, well you just need to have faith in Edward that Twilight is true.
My two-part response would be: 1) I once had plenty of appreciation and respect for the Bible, but still came to doubt it
Well the problem here is that you came to doubt it because your intellect began to see the contradiction of what you were being taught about it. Unfortunately, you believed in the teaching of the preacher and not the Bible. The biggest part of the problem is ignorance to which I am sure you would agree, though for a different reason. I say ignorance, but more specifically ignorance of the true Biblical teaching. For instance, you have the 2 part question about what evidence is there that humans have a spirit and your conclusion I concur with (and your hopeful response is funny) but it does not prove the Bible wrong because the Bible does not teach that we have a soul or spirit or anything separate from our living being. You may be refuting Christendom, Judaism, Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism and the such like, but you did not contradict the Bible.
2) WHY should we have an appreciation for the Bible?
That is the big question. Most people turn away from the Christian religion because the religious teachers set up false hopes that are really not part of the Bible. There is a consistent teaching in the Bible that is not taught in the other books or in Christendom either but everyone has to make their own decision.
I sometimes respond to these blogs when it looks like someone is really searching for the Truth. Unfortunately, it isn’t really Truth most are looking for. You have my email if you ever decide to look further into what the Bible truly teaches.
Thanks for the response.
Ok, now I’m curious… you seem to be promoting an interpretation of the Bible that I am unfamiliar with, one that teaches that humans have no spirit or soul, which certainly doesn’t sound like mainstream Christianity. Do you belong to a particular religious sect? If so, which? Or is this your own interpretation of the Bible?
I do belong to a specific denomination but if I tell you which one you will look it up on the internet and I don’t want you to. I would rather have a discussion first and see where that goes. We certainly are not mainstream Christianity that is for sure, but we do stick strictly to the Bible, preferring the King James personally. There are certain basic teachings that Paul calls “first principles” (Heb 5:12) that if properly understood anyone can understand most of the scriptures without spiritualizing them (which isn’t understanding them). Of course a lot of scriptures have allegorical meanings (Gal 4:24) but this does not negate the literal understanding of what we read. The exceptions would be where a proper understanding of History is required in the symbolism of books like Revelation.
If you think about the fact that man lacks this immortal soul (nowhere does the Bible ever use those two words together) what other doctrines does that affect? Not going to Heaven or hell for one … or is that two? (Eccl 9:5-6) When God said to Adam in Gen 3:19, “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” that is exactly what he meant. The first lie ever told is a lie perpetrated in every religion (as far as I know) today which is “thou shalt not surely die” Gen 3:4.
It is an irony of atheistic belief that reason without Bible teaching requires death to be death, and reason with true Bible teaching also requires death to be death(Psa 49:20), even if it does make us a jerk to tell someone that. The main difference is atheist die without a hope where true believers die with a hope. Reason is good. God wants us to reason (Isa 1:18) but to reason ourselves to a disbelief in God is ignorance and lacks understanding (Psa 14:1, Prov 18:2). Maybe not willing ignorance, but ignorance none the less and ignorance is never bliss with God.
This doctrine also excludes the idea that there is a Satan/Devil trying to win our immortal souls. There is no such thing nor are there ghost or vampires (just throwing that last one in for Aradia). Our natural tendencies are the only evil in the world or universe, which, as some of your questions actually address, concern how we deceive ourselves. Because our brains are finite we have two choices to make to escape this self-delusion. 1) we can rely on our own reasoning, but seeing that there are so many man made religions and non-religions, reasoning with our self does not seem to have much prospect for true enlightenment. 2) we need to rely on something that has a greater reasoning capacity than we do. Today, that is simply the Bible when it is understood. Most of Christendom understand the importance of the Bible but dismisses its actual teaching, thus making them all man made religions. How many of them believe in the immortal soul and Satan? They have mixed their mythologies and philosophies with Bible teaching and emphasize some point or other in the Bible and thus one Bible many Churches.
But a diligent study of these first principles will give us a good understanding and a foundation that cannot be moved and all the questions about man and his purpose are answered and the silly questions are seen for just what they are. This however, does not happen overnight, like zap and thou shalt be saved because there is so much garbage out there about what the Bible teaches one subject at a time has to be addressed.
Everyone that believes the same as I do would tell you the same as I would, and that is don’t believe me when I tell you something the Bible teaches. It is your responsibility to assure yourself that what I am saying is true and the only way to know that is to be familiar with the Bible which requires reading it, but some may say that is brainwashing. You seem to be an educated man. What class in college, that you know little to nothing about beforehand, could you take and read a sentence here and there from the subject text book and think you have the subject mastered? Or what class did you ever go to and the professor said, “come on down and be instantly enlighted?” To read and study math or English or accounting or whatever is not brainwashing, so why cannot the Bible be read to understand it without being accused of being brain washed (Prov 1:22)? If reason tells you that math is true, cannot reason tell you that the Bible is true? You wrote “I reckon that studying the Bible for 50 years is a lot like staring at ink blots for a long time, eventually you start to see things that aren’t really there. This is especially true of the Bible, since its parables and mysterious texts practically force the reader to engage in speculative spiritual interpretations. And before you know it, you’ve connected all the ink blots and the world is ending… Saturday. Wait… what?” Funny and true with those who have deluded themselves with false teachings. Their lack of understanding the Bible leads them to false teachings and false assumptions. But that does not mean studying the Bible with a true understanding is delusional or leading us to a delusion. If you asked that guy you were addressing if he believed in the immortal soul then he actually believes more of what the serpent said than what God said in Gen 3, so how could you put your trust in someone like that?
So I have said more than enough right now. I will let you ponder these things and decide what you want to do.
Sincerely
Oh I assure you, I studied the Bible on my own, before I came to the conclusion that it was a work of fiction. You say you prefer The King James Version? You do realize that the origins (and name) of this version are from King James being excommunicated by the Church for getting a divorce. He basically said “screw it”, and wrote his own Bible. That wouldn’t have normally worked, for one person to make there own version of a Holy Book and have it become so successfully widespread, but the King had alot of power in those days. So if you want to apply reason to a book of rules hand picked by a man that chose only the ones he felt like following, go ahead. At that point, my joke of applying the teachings of Twilight to my life actually seems like the better option. At least the “lessons” in that story were written purely for entertainment value. Your particular version is simply a rulebook that King James one’ thought he could handle and two, that supported him staying in power. It’s your choice of course, just don’t try to claim that it is reason driving you.
With all due respect Bob, there are so many people who have said, “If only you properly understood THIS principal, or THIS allegory, or THIS new revelation, then our brand of Christianity would make perfect sense to you!” But the fact is that (according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary) there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world; most of them believe THEY have correctly cracked the mysteries of the Bible and have come to a better understanding of the Bible than you… so who is right and why?
Naturally, I won’t live long enough to carefully investigate all these denominations, but I’ve heard many different religious pitches in my lifetime (and I shamefully admit I became a believer in several), but after awhile they all start to sound the same. Everyone is so sincere, everyone says “Don’t trust me, just look at THIS and you will see for yourself!” Everyone has their reasons why their branch of Christianity is better than everyone else’s. But how shall we judge?
According to you, we can’t possibly reason these things for ourselves, so we must trust the Bible. But… why? Because “Most of Christendom understands the importance of the Bible”? So what? Over a billion Muslims understand the importance of the Qur’an. Does this mean we should also give the Qur’an’s proper consideration?
Again, EVERY religion and denomination claims to have logical reasons for believing what they do. You have your first principals, and that’s great, but you also have 40,999 Christian sects that would say you’re wrong, and that you should believe in THEIR good reasons.
Everyone says, “Just study the Bible!” or the Qur’an, or the Book of Mormon, and judge for yourself! You’ll see it makes sense! But not everyone comes to the same conclusion, not even Christians who have sincerely studied the Bible and prayed for understanding their entire lives. If they can do this and still not come to an agreement, then what hope is there for anyone?
Since starting this blog, as you might imagine, I’ve spoken to many people from many different religions, all of whom believe that THEIR way of understanding is correct. But I can’t possibly address every possible interpretation of the Bible, so I try to stick to discussing the most mainstream Christian views. If it turns out the truth is actually a small minority view, then the Bible has hidden its secrets a little too deeply.
I could not have responded, 500 Questions, to What-About “Bob” any better than you did (tips hat and applauds). Bravo Sir! I’m enjoying your language and tact immensely!
I so completely agree with your Philosophy. My life-motto: Live Well – Love Much – Laugh Often – Learn Always! That last bit means allow your precludes to evolve based on nature’s evidence. That 2nd bit, Love Much, means do your altruistic part for & IN humanity. Live Well? Means live wonderfully in the PRESENT…not heavily or obsessively in the past (i.e. radical evangelical religion). Quantum Mechanics is increasingly explaining the “nature” of paranormal experiences, including our perceived “miracles”, theism, deism, etc, etc. I try to always introduce myself this way: “Hello. I’m a human from planet Earth. How may I serve you?”…and done. Please don’t pigeon-hole me! LOL
Love your blog. I’m now a fan and follower Sir!
Yet again, your comment has the distinct ring of the truth. I look forward to more thoughtful comments from you in the future.
Thank you kindly. 500 Questions and I have much in common regarding the freedom to inquire, question, and discuss. Fear stifles, courage fulfills.
The three of us have those things in common lol.
500Q,
Peace.
Hey I just posted a piece I want to share with you. It’s called Xenios and if you dig it then read some more. Oh, and invite other sons and daughters of reason to my table. I specialize in soul food.
I n I
Hello,
As I look about me, it is tough to believe we are any more than random evolved creatures, with no existence before or after our physical birth. If the naturalist theory prevails, if thinkers like Hawking assert that our brains are just advanced computers which eventually break down, with only oblivion to come, this gives our lives no more meaning than the activity in an ant hill. If we are just evolved, mobile computers, and not a part of something much larger and richer than we can presently conceive, all of our emotion, creation and achievement is merely the result of advanced life forms mastering natural and physical laws. No more than that. Which means that the brutality and atrocity extended to so many children from the dawn of time is merely the result of damaged brains, genetic aberrations, mainly male. It means there is no God watching,caring or there to eventually make things right in a fashion we have yet to understand.
This means that those who suffer terribly do so with no more meaning than those whose lives are pleasant and fulfilled. Because there is no Great Plan, no Watcher. No nothing. Just one little planet with a race which evolved by chance, through non sentient, unintelligent natural forces. It would mean there is no hope for us and never was. That nothing bad is ever made right. I hope I am wrong.
Would anyone care to discuss these ideas, based on the article above?
Hi Lyon, I’d love to discuss these ideas.
I think you’ve got a pretty good handle on exactly what it means.
While I’d agree with you that it would mean that life is unfair (nothing bad is ever made right), I would disagree that life has “no more meaning than the activity in an ant hill.”
I’ve been giving the meaning of a “naturalist life” a lot of thought lately. If naturalism is true, life may not have the grandiose, cosmic, eternal meaning that Christianity gives it, but just because we don’t live forever doesn’t mean it’s completely void of meaning.
I know that I matter to my wife and kids, and family and friends. I give their lives meaning, and they give my life meaning. They may not matter to any gods, but they matter to me, and my life would be incredibly lonely without them. But even if I had no friends or family, I would still matter to myself, and would want myself to be happy. And to some extent, I would still matter to the people around me, even if they’re not friends or family. If you’ve ever had someone be kind to you, or be a jerk to you, you know how they can impact your life (good or bad) and make a difference. (Incidentally, this is why I try to be good to others, for no other reason than I think it’s the right thing to do, because I want others to be good to me.)
As for unfairness, we humans go to great lengths to punish unfairness, even if God doesn’t. If you don’t believe me, try killing someone. God may not punish you, but society will lock you up and throw away the key! Justice doesn’t always happen, but it’s not as if it’s non-existent, either.
While unfairness will always exist, I’d like to think that society is continually (albeit slowly) progressing and trying to minimize it. We’re learning from our mistakes, and figuring out how to spare children from things like random TB, malaria, or polio infections. And in the future we’re sure to eliminate other causes of suffering like cancer, depression, and possibly even death itself!
But bringing any life into existence is a gamble. We have no way of knowing what that person will have to go through. Although… if your environment is awful, and you know your kids will hate it just like you do, you probably shouldn’t have them. But honesty — as odd as this may sound — if their life does turn out to be so awful, so painful, and so unbearable for so long that they just can’t possibly stand it any longer… there IS an exit. This exit isn’t something to be taken lightly, but it does exist, which is much better than being born into a life of torment that you cannot escape.
So even if life isn’t eternal, so what? We won’t be around to notice. And this is far better than being stuck in hell forever, anyway.
I just happen to find this blog when searching for Christians’ excuses for baby-killing diseases. Then I read the post about animal suffering, which I have been wondering how Christians could make up crazy excuses for. Your post about animal suffering was good and convincing.
Right now I am in my office, but I will read more of your posts when I get back home. It would be fun and informative. Thank you for your time sharing them with the world.
By the way, from my experience, I found that we CANNOT persuade most Christians with reasons or facts, because their beliefs are NOT based on reasons or facts. No matter how good reasons, evidences, that show Yahweh is not real, we provide to them, they usually evade them by changing the subject, or when they cannot evade, they simply say “I just know God exists because I can feel him.” or “God makes me happy gives me purposes, so I will keep believing Him.” It would feel like persuading your daughter who helplessly fell in love with a psychopath.
Most of the time, persuading Christians is waste of time. But, there are some intelligent young adults, who were born in a Christian background, questioning Christianity but are not courageous enough to get out it. People like you could help them. So I thank you for your efforts.
Thanks Sin Jeong-hun, thanks for the feedback.
And ya… I don’t suspect too many deeply religious Christians would want to spend much time here. But my primary goal isn’t necessarily to debunk Christianity. If I find that it’s actually a reasonable explanation of reality, then I’ll be the first to defend it. But I’m highly skeptical of that, and welcome any Christian who could prove to me otherwise.
So I guess you could say the first person I’m concerned about persuading is myself, and secondly, any others asking the same questions.
I imagine that most skeptical Christians sincerely want Christianity to be true, but they value truth more than any cherished beliefs. Those who refuse to ask questions just assume they already have the truth, like my beloved wife, who is one of those people who would say, “I just know God exists because I can feel him.” (Even though I’ve explained to her why feelings are a demonstrably poor tool for determining truth, it doesn’t matter — she “just knows” it’s true and doesn’t share my curiosity or skepticism. We just have to agree to disagree.)
Maybe it’s like the character House once said, “If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.”
I enjoy reading many of your posts. Was wondering your stance on feminism? Your reference to a woman recently as a bitch (although you did cross it out…let’s be real, we could still see it.) kind of threw me…
True, I did call psychic Sylvia Browne a bitch. I was pretty shocked to find out she’d told grieving parents that their missing child was DEAD (he was later found alive). It’s bad enough to take advantage of desperate parents, but to tell them their child is DEAD… that’s beyond reprehensible. But in retrospect, you’re right, I should retract that statement, lest anyone think my outrage is directed at her gender and not at her behavior.
As for feminism, I see no logical reason why a female should not be held in the same regard as a male (though I recognize nature typically bestows on each a unique set of gifts). But ultimately, a person should be judged on their character and abilities, not on their gender (except, perhaps, when selecting a sexual partner, which is more a matter of personal preference).
But as a Christian, I believed that the male was the automatic head of the household, even if he was dumber than his wife (which is often the case, as my wife will tell you). But after having my doubts about Christianity, I had to rethink that view, and I eventually told my wife that her opinions were every bit as valuable as my own, and that I wished to decide things as equal partners. So far, we’ve never run into anything we haven’t been able to compromise on. (And if we can’t agree, she’s welcome to try and change my mind using logic, reason, and/or sex… I’m okay with any of these).
i really enjoy reading your blogs. I just have one question: what are your beliefs at this point?
Thanks. At this point, I’m split. I think the best way to describe it is to say that I have an emotional side that wants to believe (possibly due to wishful thinking, instinct, social evolution, or religious upbringing), which is at war with my logical side, which sees no compelling reason to. I’ve become highly skeptical, but I try to reserve judgement with each question to avoid just confirming my own bias. If something actually makes more sense in light of the Christian world view, I’m willing to admit it.
I’ve just discovered your blog and thought your article on conjoined twins was quite enlightening. I’m an atheist myself but I really enjoy trying to understand different religions and why people hold certain beliefs, where you blog is really different is that (unlike almost everything else I’ve read) it comes from a neutral view point, which allows both believers and non-believers to engage with it.
I personally think the only thing really protecting fundamental religious beliefs is history, if things happened a long time ago there are few ways of providing evidence against claims. But hey, at the same time Mormonism and Scientology have managed to survive and grow! I guess some people just feel they need something in their lives.
The main thing I find depressing about strong religious beliefs are their closed minded nature, which I feel are ultimately dangerous in society. To me a prime example is Young Earth creationism, which is contrary to so so many standard scientific principles, it’s a bit of a joke to be honest. I think that people who argue this ‘theory’ seriously should be banned from using any technology/advancement that is/was developed based on evidence-based research/
I’ll definitely be coming back to read some of your other topics when I have some more time. Thanks!
Thanks Tom,
It’s religions like Mormonism and Scientology that first led me to wonder, “If people are able to believe THIS (which seemed like pretty obvious bunk to me at the time), then how much MORE would people be willing to believe something else that was false, but more convincing?” Well… it was convincing to me, anyway.
And I do think there’s something to be said for history obscuring the evidence and somehow making it more believable. It’s difficult to prove many of these things didn’t happen, and they’ve been believed for so long that it’s hard to imagine it’s all a misunderstanding. But obviously all religions cannot be correct, so it stands to reason that a lot of people believe things that can’t possibly be true.
Kudos to another intelligent individual that clearly see’s beyond the “smoke-n-mirrors” and quasi voodoo rituals that religious followers continue to defend. I feel that religious teaching based in acceptance of other faiths or belief’s, coupled with non-violent messages is not a bad thing, BUT we must stop believing archaic “storybook” notions, largely borrowed from stories passed along since the beginning of time, as the word of God.
It will soon be 2014 people… and-so my wish is that we start treating people as we would like to be treated. Allow men, women and children their inalienable rights to a life that is hopefully both fulfilling and in some small way, contributes something to our planet as a whole.
AMEN