17. Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

While I’ve previously touched on the problem of evil, I wanted to focus a bit more on what is perhaps the most heinous evil one can possibly imagine: the suffering and death of innocent children.

Each year, approximately 10 million children will die from causes such as birth defects, malnutrition, accidents, disease, SIDS, cancer, starvation, homicide, war, etc. The literal torture that some children must endure is absolutely unconscionable.

When children suffer and die, it forces us to ask some difficult questions:

  1. If God creates life for a purpose, why end it before it can accomplish that purpose?
  2. Why should an innocent child suffer for crimes it didn’t commit?
  3. Why should children suffer pain that they cannot understand or comprehend?
  4. Why make a child suffer and die when they can’t possibly learn from the experience?

If there is no God, then the suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature. Our brains perceive these events as sad and unfortunate, but nature is unthinking and indifferent.

But, if a moral God exists, then why do these tragedies continue as if there were no God? Why do children continue to suffer and die as if God is indifferent to the situation?

There are numerous explanations attempting to maintain God’s innocence in this case, so let’s take a quick look at each of them.

1. “God allows evil, but does not cause it.”

God always had the opportunity to say, “I refuse to create mankind, because it will result in the creation of evil and suffering.” By choosing to create us, God chose to create suffering where none previously existed. An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser.

2. “The natural world is under the curse of sin.”

In order to excuse God from the suffering he created, we sometimes try to place all the blame on man or Satan, saying, “It’s not God’s fault man sinned and let evil into the world!” But who defines the limits of mankind’s punishment? God! So why didn’t God just design a punishment that didn’t involve punishing innocent children?

For example, why not just kick Adam and Eve out of Eden and allow their sinless children to remain? Or allow Adam and Eve to stay, but punish them in the afterlife (instead of punishing them in this life and the next)? Or why not give children a greater level of protection outside of Eden? Or not allow them to feel serious pain until they’re older, or after they’ve sinned?

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
— Luke 11:13

Even we who are evil recognize that children should not be punished for sins they didn’t commit. And yet… they are.

3. “If God did not allow evil, then he would have to destroy everything that is evil.”

This all-or-nothing fallacy says that either all evil must exist, or it all must be destroyed — but surely there must be some middle ground.

For example, when Jonas Salk discovered a vaccine for polio, he lessened the number of suffering children in the world. He didn’t end all suffering, just some of it. Likewise, God could eliminate some kinds of suffering without eliminating all suffering, such as the suffering of children.

In fact, if God were truly benevolent, he would see to it that only the absolute minimum amount of suffering existed. Anything beyond that would be, by definition, unnecessary, and God would be malevolent for allowing it.

So was polio absolutely necessary? As believers, we have to say yes, or admit that it was totally unnecessary and that God is malevolent. But if polio was necessary, then why have we been allowed to eradicate a necessary evil? The fact that we can eliminate it suggests it was never necessary.

Similarly, thanks to improvements in science and education, the childhood mortality rate has been greatly reduced over the past 20 years. Was it really absolutely necessary for millions more children to die 20 years ago than today? If we can save them today, why didn’t God just spare them 20 years ago? These deaths appear unnecessary, because if we had these cures 20 years ago, they wouldn’t have all died.

4. “God rarely interferes with His creation.”

We Christians give thanks to God for every small thing. Why is it that God can help us with so many little things, but he can’t (or won’t) stop lunatics from raping and killing children?

If God and 99.99% of mankind are opposed to such behavior, why would God even allow it? If we’re all in agreement that we don’t need or want this much freedom, why does it exist?

Clearly, God offers us NO protection if he refuses to spare even the most innocent from the most evil. Does it stand to reason that God would want to save guilty sinners in the next life, when he won’t even save the most innocent in this one?

The Bible tells us we can identify a tree by its fruit (Luke 6:44). If God allows such atrocities against children, isn’t this evidence of bad fruit?

5. “If God stopped people from harming children, this would restrict our free will, and it might even prove the existence of a God.”

Most of the harm that befalls children comes from disease and environmental factors, not from malicious humans. Man did not design harmful viruses, bacteria, and natural disasters. Would it really destroy our faith or free will if we lived in a world without these things? Wouldn’t we still be free to lie, cheat, steal, assault, kill, destroy, and reject God without these things?

Consider the other natural limitations that God has placed on our free will. For example, we do not have the free will to live underwater. If we try, there are immediate and deadly natural consequences: we can’t breathe and we die! But there are no such natural restrictions on things like abusing children. Why not?

Why would an intelligent, loving God design a world that naturally prevents us from doing things that don’t matter, and then not protect the things that do? Is God more concerned about our going underwater than he is about protecting children?

6. “These children may have turned against God at a later date, so he took them early.”

If God put them here to make a choice, what good does it do to take them out before they make it? Why not take out every person before they turn against him?

7. “God is able to bring a greater good out of tragedy.”

No one ever says, “Boy, it sure is a good thing our son died!” or “It’s a good thing those 10 million babies died last year!” By all appearances, it’s a sad and unfortunate loss without recompense. While some good can come out of tragedy, it rarely seems enough to make up for the loss.

As a Christian, I may have been able to rationalize such loss if it always resulted in other people becoming saved; but it’s hard to imagine that such a scheme would work, or that God would kill children just to bolster salvation rates. (Why not just kill off vocal atheists?)

8. “The death of a child allows the parents to help others in a similar position.”

But if no children died, there wouldn’t be any parents in a similar position.

9. “God gives these children an eternity in heaven, which makes up for any and all suffering.”

In 1996, eight-year-old Michael Lyons was walking home from school when he was abducted by Robert Rhoades. Rhoades raped and tortured Michael for ten hours, stabbing him 70 times before slitting his throat and dumping him in a bush by a river. Now, I have to ask, what was God doing during those ten hours? Was he watching silently, more concerned about protecting his own identity and Robert’s free will than answering the terrified pleas of an eight-year-old? (Would anyone have noticed if Robert just died of a heart attack the day before? Or if he was never conceived?)

Maybe God did say to Michael later that same day, “Welcome to paradise! It’s all bliss from here on out!” And maybe Michael replied, “Yes Lord, but where were you just then? Why didn’t you stop him?” What could God possibly say? “Well… it won’t happen again, so that makes it okay.” How could someone who truly loves you allow for such a thing?

Saying that heavenly compensation magically turns a wrong into a right is like saying if Rhoades paid Michael’s parents one billion dollars, it would justify the crime. But it doesn’t. It still happened, Rhoades is still a child killer, and there will always be a time when God could’ve prevented it, but didn’t.

“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’ If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”
— Tracie Harris, The Atheist Experience

10. “The Bible tells us, ‘Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding.'”

When all the above rationalizations fail, the last resort is often to assume that God has a reason, we just don’t know what it is. I see a few problems with this answer.

Firstly, it’s not an answer, it just defers the question indefinitely and then assumes a reasonable explanation exists, despite all the evidence to the contrary. 

Secondly, this is like being told: “You should just accept that God allowed your child to be raped and murdered for a good reason! And when you get to heaven you’ll say, ‘Oh! There really was a good reason! Thank you Lord for allowing my child to be raped and murdered!'” I can’t imagine any scenario in which this could ever make sense.

Thirdly, this kind of argument can be used to defend any logical absurdity from any religion. “Stop doubting Zeus/Joseph Smith/Ahura Mazda/Muhammad/Jim Jones/Marshall Applewhite/Ra/L. Ron Hubbard/etc. and just accept that all these logical absurdities will be explained in the afterlife!” 

Finally, and perhaps most profoundly, the Bible tells us that God’s creation testifies to His nature (Romans 1:20). If God is benevolent and cares for children, yet His creation testifies to the contrary (by killing children through disasters and disease), then God has borne false witness against himself. How can we choose to love God when His creation testifies that he allows for unnecessary and extraneous evil? If only men did evil deeds, then we might be able to make a case for God’s innocence, but this creation as it stands speaks to either a god of malevolence, or a natural indifference.


Again, if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds of damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.

However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?

Would you stand idly by as someone molested, mutilated, and killed your child? If you then, though you are evil, would rescue your child, how much more should your Father in heaven if you ask him? But he doesn’t. He creates a world where it can happen, and then stands idly by as it does. 

“Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own?”
— Robert Ingersoll

This entry was posted in God's Behavior, Prayer and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

841 Responses to 17. Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

  1. innertubes says:

    Evil deceptive God fits the bill here

    • Godsentmehehasaplanforyouto says:

      Because God never intervenes in unbelievers lives and choices, but God always calls out to people throughout their lives, if people chose to ignore God and not want his help, he wont break your free will and let you do as you will, but the natural LAW in this world is, you reep what you sow, sometimes it is kinda like karma passed down from your parents or grandparents, they may have also hated God and dibalieved in him, and done many bad things that were never forgiven… but people never seem to realise death is just the beginning, and sometimes death of somebody is Gods taking them away from pain and the dangers GOD KNOWS is ahead of them.

      Atheist ask this question alot. for God stop things from happening every time a child is in need, he is taking away free will..

      However if you are a believer God will always create circumstances for you were you have the chance to leave and get out of trouble, GOd doesnt come down from heaven and magically beat up all the bad guys, he influences what happens and guides you through inner voice and tells you how to get out of trouble,, you know the saying when people say i shouldve listen to my gut, and it would of never happened, or when something bad happeneds but before they found out, they kinda felt they needed to do something but decided not too… well alot of times that is GOD,, that is the spirit of GOd telling us and guiding us…

      nothing happens over night with God, it is a tough road being a believer, far harder than any sinner.. although sinner reap pain in the end, and believers reap reawrds… for long periods of times believers have to suffer ALOT, emotionally and spiritually… sometimes a loss to a family changes the way other family members see things, for example some peoplle will appreicate their life more, or inturn, TURN and reach out to GOD after a loss.
      It is how WE deal with the situations this universe throw at us, never to blame anyone, everything happens for a reason… and life is about growing spirtually becoming closer to God… for most it takes a lifetime, for the blessed it is alot quicker so they reap the benifits on earth too… through faith..

      ME for example, i remember even when i was a kid, ive never questioned if GOd existed, noone really told me or forced me into any religion, but i just remember believing and never doubting he/she existed, and in times of pain i was speak to God.. later on as a teenager i forgot about God, got in alot of trouble, had alot of fun, got in fights, got girls, cause trouble, made a name for myself etc… but as a matured again, i felt god call out to me and felt i needed God again, as i was about to down a really dark road, which ment i would be in prison, or dead.

      God reconnected me with my talents, which was music, which took me away from everything and made me believe their was life outside all the friends and lifestyle i had built over the years.. I left ALLLLL that behind and put faith in God..but it wasnt easy i went into severe depression and most days it was a struggle, i felt lost.. but this is whole part of clensing and RELEARNING and being BORN AGAIN…
      The way I had learnt to look at life, the person I had shaped myself into through the choices of my life, I had to completely change, now that is pretty scary right????
      but through gods support and in doses he knows you can handle (he never throws anything at us we cant handle) I rememeber just the other day, i was really depressed and in pain, and I asked God to stop because i needed a break from learning, and it instantly stopped… instantly it was peaceful just like a click of a finger… (BELIEVE ME)

      For example, i was in a local pub with my friends, i live in a trashy town full of gangster wannabes, including myself back then, I was quite feared and popular respected etc.. but i was half way into my transformation, by this time i had recoonected with God and started to WANT to change my life.. So one night in this pub, one of the younger boys who i knew through friends that was from the same part of town as me knocked into some lad and spilt his drink… they lad was angry and started getting in his face and getting agressive.. I saw this instantly went over grab the lad by the throat and told him to Fuck off or ill kill him… the guy backs off… 2 minutes later a gang of 20 people started staring over to start trouble… these guys were also bad people and had toruble with the friends i was with previous, one of my friends was jumped by a load of them and put into hospital.. I am FEARLESS i stood my ground and challenged all 20 of them, They got scared and diverted the attention towards my friends insted, they was too scared to confront me……………

      now these guys werent soft, and I was 1 man confronting 20 men and they got scared,, partly due to me being fearless and insane but i believe it was all down to GODs protection.. 20 guys would beat me to DEATH with ease… but god gave me strength to stand my ground, which diverted the attention to my friends, and my bestfriend came over and told me to get there now and theyll deal with it…. and i lowered my ego, and felt God tell me, just go.. normally would stand my ground and be stubborn and stay i would rather DIE than backdown,, but i felt god tell me clearly “just leave now”……., and it was not fear but something that just made sense and felt right like i needed to do that. I had the choice to listen to my own ego and my own self at that time and couldve chose to stay out of pride, but the feeling GOD gave me when he said what he said, it came very clear and also with emotion behind it… It felt as though God was saying this is the turning point, you humble yourself and listen to me now and leave and ill save you, but I also had the free choice to deny him. the deal was either i was going to die in the fight get badly hurt, or the repercusions wouldve sent me down the road i didnt want to go…… it WAS VERY CLEAR..

      That was the moment that change, where I KNEW I was strong enough to walk away from everything i had built over the years.. not out of fear, but BE PROUD and fearless heading and rebuilding my life in a completely new direction, to worship GOD, CRACK MUSIC INDUSTRY, and become a good person again.

      GOD IS AMAZING.. I am genuinely happy spiritually and mentally.. AND I KNOW most people especially unbelievers never reach this level.. on the surface in the world they create may be happy, but within the most important part, the SOUL of the person, they are in deep dispair… only GOD through JESUS can clense the soul

      • t-dauncey says:

        wow! an answer for every dirty deed. we came from the earth and will only leave in total darkness; thank goodness (not “god”)

        • DontbeIgnorant says:

          OK! I have a question of my own! (And thanks “god” for creating me, so I can ask this!)

          What would GOD think if we threatened HIM with Hell MUST READ?

          We must save “GOD” from eternal damnation! why would he create us so different than him, and why can’t we understand why he could send people that he loves to hell, etc, Does the REAL god actually have ANY empathy at all for the people he sends to hell? Can Jesus feel their pain? Is it really fair that god would create us so different as to not know how HE thinks and HIS
          reasoning? Ok now that you’ve comprehended that, let’s ask the question. What if WE Threatened GOD with HELL? What if WE told GOD that HE WILL SUFFER IN HELL FOR ETERNITY IF HE DOESNT BELIEVE IN US! What if WE WANT PEACE WITHOUT HAVING TO BOW DOWN TO SOME ** GOD WHO WE CANT UNDERSTAND?! WHAT IF WE ARE GOOD LOVING PEOPLE
          AND WE WONT ACCEPT ETERNAL SUFFERING BECAUSE WE ARE PROGRAMMED NOT TO by the supposed same sick mofo who forces us to go there, simply because we cannot believe in some character written about in a book, that was created by reptilians? WHAT IF WE HAVE AN OPEN MIND AND WE LOVE AND TREAT EACH OTHER GOOD? WHY MUST WE SUFFER? The main answer christians give
          to this is that WE CANT UNDERSTAND GODS WAYS, he made it like this for a test, blah blah,etc NOW MY QUESTION TO ALL CHRISTIANS IS WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON GOD’s empathy for us? What if WE THREATENED GOD WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION and took over his heavenly throne? What would HE THINK? Obviusly he is supposed to be omni.* so he should have some type of
          thought regarding this. Is it not possible that God can suffer himself? Does god suffer at all, and if so, why would he chose his own suffering just to make us suffer? Makes no sense. Again, don’t beat around the bush here, I want a clear answer or obviously you all have doubts in your mind
          as to weather or not this “perfect” god actually exisits. Remember you’re only going on blind faith. Why believe in something like that SIMPLY OUT OF FEAR? Manifest a hell for yourself? Because that is all that these believes are doing.
          Why would god make us so limited as to not understand jack dick? Why would god even exist? Realize the REAL god is not a HE at all, but rather a brainless, consciousless computer system. God could be aliens, god could be a douchebag.
          The bottom line here is that WE ARE FAR MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD will ever hope to be, because WE ARE REAL. Don’t give in to the robotic theory that we “MUST ALL THINK ALIKE” To get to heaven. Try to be free, try to be yourself, that is what the collective consciouness is telling me right now, and believe it or not THIS IS REAL, WE ARE REAL. If you can THINK YOU ARE REAL. If you are
          programmed you are a ROBOT. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again….You can be one with “God” Or you can be one with the “Robot”
          Hope I didnt cause to much confusion here. I’ve dealt with many demons in my life and I do believe in lots of things. But my true beliefs come
          If JEsus were really a savior as “They” claim, then he would have saved you already and you wouldn’t be suffering on this prison
          that you are living in right now. Everything is a simulated reality. This has been PROVEN. You are not living in a REAL WORLD.
          Just accept it Christians, you are scardey cats. Now let’s hear your answers. And NO COP OUTS like “You need to go to a mental ward”
          That’s a COP OUT, I want real answers, and no stupid ones please. lol i just wasted my time here as I doubt any christian can answer this, but will
          be fun to see what they come up with. If anything, I am trying to help people wake up here, as this LIE is very dangerous. No way god
          would be loving and have NO EMPATHY for us in hell. And if he DID Feel our pain, he’d have to be an IDIOT to send us there to begin with when he knew
          we were doomed to it. Honestly, there is no logic explaintion for this other than WE CANT UNDERSTAND GOD. Again Why would you believe something so ridculous
          that god would create a bunch of idiots who can’t understand them, just so they can suffer in hell? GOOD PEOPLE GOING TO HELL IS NOT RIGHT AND WE CANNOT ACCEPT
          THIS THEORY! This is what the true darkness wants you to believe! The true evil is what has a grasp on you if you live your life in FEAR. You can manifest “Hell”
          which doesnt actually exist in reality, with your own fears! BEWARE OF GOD (Kinda like beware of DOG backwards) is my new saying. All this is common sense people
          if you wake up and stop being afraid of something that doesn’t exist. These evil idiots that create religion WANT You to manifest this fake “God” with your own REAL
          GODLY MIND POWER. There is nothing in the universe more powerful than your mind, and don’t believe for a second that some fake god IS. We are the only ones who can destroy them, as nobody coming to save us. If they were, they would have saved us long ago.time is all a human concept there is is no time in other dimensions, so if you think “Jesus wears
          a watch” you are wrong. WE ARE GOD.

          • Sal says:

            I am not going to give you answers such as “WE CANT UNDERSTAND GOD” or it said so in the bible or you just have to have faith, and so on. I know those answers are not sufficient. If we really want to know what is the real God we first must find him and then find out what he is like. If I told you I was God you would crucify me as crazy and insane. I would be locked up in a nut house. Yet we do have a historical man who claimed himself to be God. If this same person showed up today we would again label Him as a lunatic, just like you would label me as a wacko. He would be no different than me. So what else must he do to prove he is God? He would have to speak and teach like no other person before HIM…He would have to perform miracles; he would have to prophesize and fulfill those prophecies, and so on. Now you are going to say he was merely a myth, fictional, Folklore, fable, revolutionist, liar, etc. When we believe in great men such as Julius Ceasar, Napoleon, Aristotle, Socrates and so on, why do we believe in them? Do we believe in them because of blind faith? None of us was there to see them. The only evidence we have are the ancient manuscript. We believe in these manuscripts. Yet when we look at the manuscripts of all that was written about Christ, outside the bible, we ignore it. Why do we have two sets of standards? Either we have to believe in all historical manuscripts or we believe in none. All belief systems have no foundation, except one. That foundation is in the historical secular documents outside the bible. Therefore when I believe in God, I do not use the bible, the church, the religion, the Christianity or any creed or doctrine. I believe in God because He existed in human form, even if he was an alien from outer space…he told us how to live and to this day, he is the benchmark of what unconditional love means. Study his words, not from the bible but from other writings, and see if you can find fault in what he said. Again, I know there is no way I can convince you. Your mind is made up just as my mind is made up. You can write me back and criticize everything I wrote and I know you will. We can argue back and forth. You have your belief and I have mine. I will not write back to rebuttal you….thank you of your input…… I do admit it was interesting reading…

            • DontbeIgnorant says:

              Sai, There is no argument here. Everyone has their own truth and I actually agree with most everything you said. It makes sense in your standpoint. The only thing I don’t agree with is that you are looking “outwards” to find “god” there is no outwards god. The true god lives right within you, so you must look INWARDS to find God.

              Hope this helps you on your journey….

              Best of Luck and Peace and Love for us all. We deserve it

            • Anonymous says:

              Ok…so your telling people to go read about Jesus in writings other than the Bible. And you want them to believe these writings prove that Jesus is God, right? Why would they believe them when you’re telling them NOT to believe the actual, inspired Word of God Himself?

          • JESUSisourSAVIOR says:

            Praise the Mighty Name of Dearest Jesus! HALLELUJAH!
            Please before you read it, have an open HEART and open MIND, for this very moment even though you don’t believe in GOD, I am humbly requesting (ONLY FOR THIS TIME) you to call GOD and ask for the TRUTH. PLEASE tell GOD that if HE IS TRUE and HIS WORDS ARE TRUE, ASK FOR HIS SWEET HOLY PRESENCE. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH.

            I will never say any bad things on you. But for you to say that, have you read the whole contents of the bible or listened to the preachers of the Gospel? Because if you did, you’ll SURELY UNDERSTAND what you are saying. All the things that were written in the Scriptures are happening today (i will not be specific anymore, if you have time try to read. I will not put any bible verses here but what i will tell you today, my thoughts will be base from the scriptures.)

            If you only knew how much JESUS, our Lord LOVES YOU. All of us are sinners, No one is holy but God. I am writing here because GOD wants you to be SAVE. Our bodies here on Earth is temporary (I believe you are aware of it), our SOUL is the REAL US, there’s no eternal life here on Earth, we are only travelers here, and BELIEVE IT OR NOT there are only one destination of the SOUL, either the HEAVEN or HELL. The easiest path to take is the path which leads to the DESTRUCTION, the LAKE OF FIRE (if one soul got there, he/she will be TORMENTED there FOREVER, WATCH THIS PLEASE https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=599326690088301 ). How will you know that you are travelling down there? You are on easy life, you got your friends your family, colleagues, all your loved ones and that’s it. You don’t have time to worship the LORD, You respect and love your families, friends but you don’t care to other people anymore, you curse and judge other people, you say bad words, you steal, you kill people. Your attitude like you always get in trouble, you are ill tempered, you flirt, you hurt feelings of other people. In other words, All the evil deeds (if you read the bible, there you’ll also know that there are still deeds that are evil that you don’t know it is) Being KIND only is NEVER ENOUGH to INHERIT AND ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. If there are LAWS in our society, GOD also has and, for whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is GUILTY OF ALL. (It seems unfair, but actually IT’S NEVER UNFAIR) Our generation is the MOST BLESSED GENERATION among other unlike the time of Noah, Moses and other prophets in the old Scriptures, WHY? Because we had the REFERENCE (BIBLE) or the “INSTRUCTIONS” HOW TO BE SAVED. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO FOLLOW what’s written in the BIBLE. IT IS THE WAY TO ETERNAL LIFE. (How come I said that? Because I KNOW what’s in the BIBLE, and WHAT’s in the BIBLE is already HAPPENING TODAY (IT’S REALLY A GOOSEBUMPS), Why will I DON’T BELIEVE? I AM SAVED NOW BECAUSE OF GOD’S MERCY ON US. I AM A SINNER BEFORE, I GET DRUNK, I HAD SEX WITH BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS, I SMOKE, I WORE SEDUCTIVE CLOTHES, I SAY BAD WORDS ALOUD, I JUDGE PEOPLE, I GOT NO TIME TO GO TO CHURCH, I ENJOYED MYSELF IN BARS, HOTELS WITH WORLDLY PEOPLE, I GOT TOO MUCH DESIRES FOR THE THINGS HERE ON EARTH, I LOVE MY PARENTS BUT I TALKED TO THEM AS IF I AM BETTER THAN THEM, I CHEATED, I LIED. (i will not share to you anymore other testimonies) I AM NOT ASHAMED TELLING YOU THIS BECAUSE THIS IS THE REAL ME BEFORE AND WHAT’S GOOD IN IT??? I REALIZED ONE NIGHT THAT I AM GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY!!! WHERE WILL I GO??? I ASK GOD TO HELP ME AS I AM FULL OF DOUBTS, QUESTIONS AND HATRED. I AM CRYING BECAUSE I AM TIRED AND I DON’T HAVE PEACE OF MIND THAT TIME. THAT VERY MOMENT I DECIDED TO FOLLOW GOD’S WILL. I READ THE BIBLE AND HIS WORDS LIGHTENED AND OPENED MY MIND AS HE GAVE ME SO MUCH PEACE, KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING, UNTIL SUCH TIME I DIDN’T NOTICE THAT MY EVIL THOUGHTS AND DEEDS ARE BEING REMOVED GRADUALLY BY OUR DEAREST JESUS.





            feel free to visit this: http://www.jmcim.org FOR MORE LIVING TESTIMONIES. GOD BLESS US ALL! HALLELUJAH PRAISE THE LORD!

            • Anonymous says:

              Dear JESUSisourSAVIOR,
              First off, you need to get some help. Someone on this earth with a dr. in front of their name preferably. Also, that rant was really beyond belief. I was offended by all the yelling (has no one told you that typing in all caps translates into yelling?) and assuming that all who read this are as sin-filled as you were. You really give believers a bad name by your outburst. Please put the alcohol away and collect yourself.

          • Tommey says:

            I would love to see you threaten god and see what happens. And because you’re so powerful, I would love to see how you can prevent yourself from dying cause you control death right? You control everything cause you’re god..

            • DontbeIgnorant says:

              First off, I wasn’t being serious. My post was to make or prove a point here.
              We have been threatened by some fake god, with eternal suffering. I was just making
              a statement, what if WE turned the threat around on this supposed god? What would happen?
              Well nothing bad would come out of it, as long as you are like me and are not afraid.
              Threateneing the REAL god would be like threatening yourself because the REAL GOD LIVES
              WITHIN US. But the Fake god, preys on your fears and threatenes to take away what is already
              yours. We all have the gift of eternal life…and nobody has the right to take that away.
              Not even some fake god. I’m sure there are evil doers out there, who would love to take
              our souls away…but it is OUR RIGHT TO BE ETERNAL And we always have been and always will
              be. I will prove the Christian god wrong, ONCE AND FOR ALL in my post below. Just TRY
              to read and answer my “Hard” questions, (because we have already DEBUNKED EVERY OTHER
              ANSWER YOU COULD MUSTER UP…so I want to see all you Christians finally admit ONCE AND FOR US
              THAT YOUR GOD IS A GARBAGE LIE…which is meant to steal away your own personal birthrights!
              Before you give anymore of your personal power
              away to some garbage entity, continue on reading here…

              Christians: Did God really give us Ultimate Free will to chose our lives?

              Hello all,

              I hope this post is not against the rules. I am just a normal person who is trying to understand all the contradictions I hear from the bible. Please, only true christians who have read the bible need to answer. Thanks in advance and I hope no one finds any of this offensive as these are all REAL VALID QUESTIONS….please read below with an open mind and let me know your thoughts.

              First let me say, before I Ask the hard questions. The answer in my opinion is obviously, “NO”, God did not give us free will to chose. I would love
              to not be a sinner, but I have no choice in the matter. I am FORCED to be a sinner, I wish I had no sexual desires with women(if its truly sinful to make love, then WHY? I love all women equally. They are beautiful in their own way. I can understand LUST being a sin, but Sex and lust are not connected for me. To me, Sex is LOVE) Sex is awesome and makes me feel loved and alive.

              It was clearly said by the bible that we are ALL Sinners. I am not a theif or a liar and I treat people with respect. I am not perfect but I am close to it as possible. I like gambling but I dont understand how gambling is a sin either, considering I make money with it guaranteed, year round. There is no possible way I can lose gambling, so it’s not really gambling if you do it professionally. So if anyone can address how playing pro poker is “Gambling” when you are sure to make a living, then please do! OK so now that all your free will arguments are now down the drain, What do
              you have to say about your mistake in believing we had free will?? (answer this too please)

              Why would we have free will to accept ETERNAL TORTURE but not free will to be perfectly non sinning human beings? I mean
              surely a perfect god could of avoided a bunch of sinning people like us if he wanted. But we dont even have a choice!
              We’re forced, or programmed into it! Almost like robots!

              Now here’s the hard questions….Make sure you are able to address and answer each one of these properly…or else you
              know in your heart that the god you believed in was a lie…Now dont get me wrong, I DO BELIEVE IN GOD, just not one in the sky. There is no proof what so ever of a god in the sky. Jesus is not here to save us. And the god I believe in, lives right within us.

              Also did you know that Jesus=666? Why is that? Does the bible explain that? If you take each letter and add it together using the scale A=9, b=18, c=27 etc his name equals 666. So does GOSPEL and many other closely related christian words. ARe you sure you guys haven’t been deceived here?

              Here’s another one- If god gave us free will to chose, why didnt he give us free will to chose if we’d exist or not?

              Especially if he already knew who was going to accept him and who was going to be doomed to suffer in hell?

              I thought he loved all of us? If this is true and he loves all of us, dont you think he would of only created the people
              who would of used their “free will” to believe in him and go to heaven?

              Now you christians cant use the free will excuse because ive ironed that out.

              And also you cant use the excuse that he loves us all, because
              if he did, he wouldnt of created us doomed for torture for eternity (unless your twisted idea of loving someone is
              torturing them…forever and ever and ever!!! Never ending!! Imagine just 1 MINUTE OF TORTURE would be unbearable and barbaric….
              but ETERNITY??? WOW Cant imagine that…)

              These are the 2 main excuses Ive seen christians make
              so far, for people who have asked this question… so Im ironing those out here so you can hopefully see they are not valid and they clearly contradict each other. I can understand your inner fear of hell…so of course your mind will come up with anything it can think of to justify what god does, but keep reading and you’ll see that what you’ve believed all this time was wrong.

              Anyone can make up an explaination for anything. Doesnt make it true or valid.

              oh yeah I’ve also heard the “God is god, and he made us, so we can’t question what he does. He has the right to create
              something and destroy it. Well that’s all fine and dandy, EXCEPT THAT IT CONTRADICTS the supposed fact that God “Loves”
              Remember, True love is not about destroying. It’s about preserving. True love lasts forever. No loving god would destroy
              his beloved creation. I know I wouldn’t do that to my creation. Does that make me, a lowly human, BETTER or NICER than
              GOD?! What do you think? Would you rather have a god who forgave you no matter what? I mean, as long as you were a good person and wanted to be forgiven?

              Also not to mention the fact that he never would of created a douche like satan to begin with, considering he knew that
              satan would cause a bunch of problems. He could of just created us all perfect, meaning perfection so we
              never would of sinned to begin with.

              The fact that Eve sinned, proves she wasnt perfect. Free will or not, nobody perfect would sin to begin with. So another
              contradiction there. I thought God created her in his own image?

              Also why didn’t god sin if he’s perfect like his creation? It seems like this god you believe in, is “better” than his creation,
              therefore he created us to be worse than him. He can stand temptation but we can’t? Also why are we forced to be born in
              this world, and programmed to sin?

              Why couldnt he of RESPECTED US AND OUR FREE WILL and asked first, if we wanted to live or not? I know that if you truly love someone, you don’t force them into anything. But the fact is, God forced each and every one of us into these lives (at least according to what you believe, is that correct?) If so, why? I thought he was all about free will to chose what we wanted? Why can we chose heaven or hell, but not chose if we want to be born or not?

              LOVE to me is not FORCING someone to live a MISERABLE LIFE,(yes my life has been miserable, just as so many others have. Not everyone has it good here. And also I tried accepting JEsus into my heart several times in the past. It never worked for me. I didn’t feel a thing. Why is that?) But why would he force us to be in misery here, just to end up in EVEN MORE MISERY WHEN WE DIE?

              Have fun answeing that one! And please us VALID, LOGICAL answers only please.

              No stuff like “We cant understand God, we just have to believe” That’s not gonna cut it with me, thats not a valid answer. Because if we can’t understand god, then that is proof that he is so much different than us, that he has no right to judge us. Sure he might of created us, but that was WRONG for him to do that, then judge us…when we can’t even understand how he works or thinks. I heard he has all the human emotions like Jealous, anger, etc. A perfect god wouldn’t be able to have emotions, its another contradiction.

              What if the REAL god was actually the devil? OR what if the devil is actually much more powerful than god is, and he’s just too ashamed to admit it and so he lied to us and told us he is all powerful and in control?
              What if satan is more powerful?
              Then we’re screwed. Even christians. Theyve just been lied to…thinking they’re going to heaven
              on their blind faith, when really the devil has other plans in store for you, them or us.

              Just something to think about guys. Also please answer the questions from your heart, as truthfully as you feel.

              Thanks and please don’t take offense, I am just trying to figure out why everything I’ve been told was a lie.

              PS- I’ve been getting attacks ever since I tried posting these questions, spiritual attacks. I am a good person
              and I get attacked all the time by “Demons” or whatever you wish to call them. I get scratches on my body (usually
              come in 3’s) look this up on google if you aren’t aware of it…it’s very real. Now, WHY would GOD attack me
              for asking questions and trying to get to the truth? He wouldn’t. But The “Devil” WOULD! Now Why would
              the devil attack me for asking questions that are AGAINST Christianity? It seems to me that this is further proof
              that the christian god, is actually the devil in disguise. Please let me know your thoughts on this as well!

              • fi says:

                Hello there, I can see where you’re coming from and why you are having these thoughts… I think a fair number of people can think like this from time to time… also dont think that all christians havent at some time had doubts or wondered very deeply about these issues. Of course, its logically possible that the things you propose are true… but the whole thing needs unpacking and looking at more simply. Its also logically possible that the worldllview given in the bible is actually true- but it needs looking at. You say you are being attacked by demons ( Ive had experience of something very similar and I came to knowledge that demonic/ spiritual stuff exists LONG before I came to faith in Christ )- so we can agree on one thing- that there IS a spirit realm. As there is a spirit realm ( there is mases and masses of evidence for this if anyone cares to look) it stands to reason is also a spiritual creator… of course logically, that could be good or bad. We can deduce some things. We can SEE lots of evil in the world – and spirit realm… its real and exists… but if you look you can also see evidence of real love. Things like poor people sharing their meals with hurting animals, other people. Our hearts have the capacity for empathy- real and deep empathy. Whatever created us gave us the capacity for very real and deep feeling. If whatever created us did NOT have this capacity itself ( supposing evil created us and not the loving God) then it is very strange that our creator would give us a capacity or function that it itself does not have. How would it ‘know’to give us a depth it itself compleely lacks. Seems the fact that we have compassion and empathy that so does our creator. Also if you look at the world there is a lot of evidence of beauty, interactivity, nurture, warmth and love. This is everywhere if you look.. in the way animals act and relate, in how humans love and laugh and the millions of beautful, comical, lovable creatures everywhere… It seems there was a heart behind the creation… humour, imagination, love, warmth, relatability… these things dont seem to be the sorts of things an evil ( lacking love) spirit/devil would create. But while there is a good background and understanding about love in creation, in people and in the world, its also undeniable that there is evil ‘hanging around’ everywere we look, destroying things everywhere we look. So what is the best interpretation ? That a moral God with real love and capable of wrath created us for a relationship with Him or that an evil god who has no desire to relate to us created us ?

                To know that you have to start to RELATE to what is around you. When we are IN RELATIONSHIPS we all feel better, we feel safe and that we belong. When we are not relating to anyone we all start to feel alienated and strange and our ”thoughts” and speculations ( and imaginings!) take over. Thoughts take precidence so that what we IMAGINE can start to take on a reality of its own and actually and seem to be more real. God ( our loving God!) can be experienced- but then evil attack can also be experienced- but not in relationship- but more when we are UNRELATED! God actually answers people – God has answered me ( without mistake! ) about 6 or 7 times over the last 20 years and it was quite mind-blowing each time…Its possible to feel his guidance and protection . God answers real-time questions in physical undeniable ways sometimes…God even uses a third party to answer prayers in quite remarkable ways. This all takes place in a relationship, with nurture, acknowledgement of our personality and needs, protection of us as people with fears and weaknesses. All of the above happens when we pray to the Lord ( Jesus)…. but in contradistincion however, when we become unrelated ( alienated/ isolated).. and stop communicating our thoughts start to take over and we are not in real/loving communicaton with anyone… it is THEN that we can start to ”see” or believe that the world is against us… we feel alone so we start to believe that the devil is behind it all. We see evil in the world but because we are not related, we stop being able to perceive the good… little by little we can slip into a state where we can only perceive evil going on around us… we are no longer able to relate and feel part of things… The REAL ( loving) God created us for relationships however… He created us to relate to Him and He gave us qualites of love/compassion that relate to Himself… that makes sense i think. But God who created us for Himself and gave us thee deep qualities of feeling which He Himself has, also asked us to behave with compasion and morality. That sounds like a caring God, one who sets the standard of comassion. From the ten commandments to God telling us to turn the other cheek, love our friends/ enemies and fed the widows and orphans and forgive our enemies. The bible doesnt say God is ONLY loving. It also says that God has wrath about the way we have behaved and is angry at our cruelty, selfishness and abuse. God has repeatedly called us into relationship with Himself- some come, some don’t ! But God poured his wrath down on Jesus to ABSORB God’s wrath so that God could then forgive all of those who would ask for it. Those who relate to God have a healthy, respectful fear of the Lord as well as a love and appreciation. Both! But those who do not relate to God and believe there is o God, these peole receive no comfort and can ONLY speculate and little by little they become more and more unrelated and feeling that they are alone… at this point evil can realy take over and attack the mind, thus further convinceing the man/ woman that they are alond in the universe and that they are play things of the devil.
                I doubt that the devil would allow the hundreds of thousands of healings which the Lord is doing for many, many people, It seems far more likely that it is the Lord God ( who is loving) who is doing these healings and that He wants to share His gospel with many others…but for those not in relationship means what we imagine can become more stronger- Im falling asleep, Ill try and finish this tomorrow… my point is that we cannot speculate ooooour way to God, but we are created to relate to Him and the speculations are in no way an explanation for what can only be experienced….the healing miracles of God are real, by the way – and hundreds are verified by doctors ( many of whom come to faith as a result). Also I experienced years of demonic attack before I was prayed for and became a christian ( I became christian because the christians prayed the attacks would stop- and when they did I was totally amazed)-my conversion was based on ( unexpected) evidence. Ive seen miracles and healings in Jesus’name. Ive seen people prophesied over by christians who DONÝ know them and KNOW intimate details of the person’s lives- and be totaly changed afterwards. Jesus came to INVITE into life and INTO a relationship with Himsellf- not to speculate about it and what it MIGHT be like, if it WERE to exist. Asking God to prove Himself with signs is also NOT relating to Him- its asking God to prove Himself and is actually just more mental speculation!!! God does exist and does show Himself but not to people demanding proof. There are a thousand angles on this that would take ages to begin to show you- take small, but REAL steps of faith and ask questions which allow for Gods existence to be accepted. Ive suffered all the questions Ive seen on this site- yet when I searched for God with a desire to see Him and meet with Him ( and not trying to deny evidence that clearly showed Him in action!)…I saw that od was real again. I never doubted the spiritual side, because I experienced so many spiritual things ( real phenomena like poltegeistic stuff for many years and being physically healed and prophesied over when I ws desperately unhappy and in total despair- accurate, mind-blowing prophecy that no one could have imagined or invented) Ive seen people I know physically healed of tings that can’t be healed- and then converted… why ? Because my search took place in the real world- not just mental speculation ( which is always ready to pounce on any answer given and ‘deny’ it with ever-ready sharp teeth. My search wasnt just mental- it took place in the real world- I went to churches where healings happened; I went to people and asked for prayer; I went outside and screamed to God for help in my desperation ( literally, because I suffered so very much) My search was long and hard and sincere. I didnt care if I became Buddhist or Hindu or Christians, muslim, or whatever- but as it happened it was the power of Christ that helped. As someone who studied philosophy of religion I was open minded an had no preset ideas about what truth had to be. My search took over ten years. I was amused ans well as surprised to find that it was Christ who healed me so dramatically- 18 years ago I became a christian.. If you seek God with ALL YOUR HEART You will find Him- the problem i see here is that many are only doing an intellectual search, asking questions with their mind and then quickly spitting out the answer. …that is not a real search, and yet for all of that, it is a start… God bless you. Part of the key to this search is making a shift in your thinking- you cannot keep automatically saying with each person who tells their story or experience that they ”imagined ” it and it is not real. How do you REALLY know that ? How do you really know there is no such thing as demons, when you havent experienced it yourself ? How can you assume their is no devil ? And yes, just by the way, the dot of time here when compared to eterniy really is a dot of time ( when compared to eternity)- That is is no way sayig it doesnt matter or doesnt hurt or cause fear or horror- but until you start to look ( ad not automatically reject every answer) how can you understand why God allows things to happen which cause pain? How do you know its not for a reason ?? I know that i suffered terrible fear and severe depression for ten years but remrakably it LED to my being open enough to search for God I never would have before… amazingly after that I enjoyed peace and joy I never knew existed before that. This search cannot be mental. The answers you come across need to be weighed ad examined. … too many here are rejecting them in seconds and moving on to the next question. That is not a real search. When you hear of a supernatural healing dont dismiss it as though you know… go and investigate… REALLY investigate- find out if they are still healed, what the doctors said, if they were of sound mind, etc, etc… Many doctors have become christians because their ppatients have been supernaturally healed!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really must go, Ill try to come here again, God bless x x

                • Anonymous says:

                  God poured his wrath into jesus, so jesus would absorb god’s wrath, so god could then forgive us? In other words: God sacrificed himself, to himself, to enable him to forgive us humans of the wrath he created within himself in the first place, and then had forced that wrath upon us?? Honestly, the weird logic of your theology makes absolutely no logical sense.

                  Couldn’t god have simply counted to ten and taken a deep breath? I mean, even lowly humans are capable of controlling their tempers (and forgiving our own children, especially if they make a mistake that we ourselves set them up for.) No parent demands their children to love them, by threatening to destroy them if they don’t!

                  • anton says:

                    the thoughts you shared wouldn’t enter into the minds of these blind christians who have been conditioned to the highest degree of conditioning. for me god is a tyrant, capricious, sadistic, and malevolent and abusive father. i do believe in his existence, but what i have taught when i was young didn’t anymore sync with what i experienced as an adult. this god would rather listen to the devil’s whinings against us than to us. he has a three-fold scheme of answering our prayers: no, yes, wait. actually, the third eventually converts to a no and what we have are two-fold. with the devil, based on my experience, there is only one: YES. if he can be cruel to righteous job, how much more to me, who in his eyes am unrighteous.

                    • consultgtf says:

                      Yes/No/Wait…Kindly let me know which category of people get which reply?

                      As, I have been getting my request answered before this message reaches me! So, are you telling me that God is answering the prayer of some Lunatics like me?

                      But, Why should HE answer few and ask other’s to follow the queue? Why? When asked thee GTF same question. HE asked me to read the BIBLE and when I opened, I could see, Exodus Chapter 20
                      1 And God spake all these words, saying,
                      2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of bondage.
                      3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
                      4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
                      5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
                      6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

                      I started reflecting on these words, all these days, only to understand “We all are running behind illusion God’s, this includes our parents and grand parents, though we have not sinned, we have been paying the penalty, and we don’t realise this “POWERFUL COMMANDMENT”.

                      We only add the sin baggage, which will be later carried-on by our CHILDREN then their children, when we are not able to carry forward as the weight is too much! we leave it but add more weight, which will be carried by our grand children if our children offshore it their children.

                      Now I understand, “Why I AM suffering though I HAVE NOT SINNED!”

                      This answers, the most difficult QUESTION, ” Why does God allow children to suffer and die?”

                      He is not allowing, instead, we pray for getting that suffering! but never stop at least from our generation!

                      ANY TAKERS!

                • Stella says:

                  This is a total lie. Kindly go to cancer wards and pray and see if your prayers can work for cancer patient. You are just talking of possibly one person who got healed by chance how about those who did not heal why aren’t you talking about them. What is evil or satan. Does it exist? and where does it live? How does it look like?

                  • consultgtf says:

                    YOU and ME are EVIL for the next generation, who have sinned after knowing that IT IS SIN against GOD THEE FATHER, It is no use to cry over the dead, instead stop the generation, who is living to satisfy their senses only. to stop children suffering, in future generation, to follow.

              • Anonymous says:

                Good point on the lack of free will. How in the world can ANYONE have free will, when everyone is “born in original sin”? I didn’t “choose” to be born, if I was “knitted together in the womb” by a god, then that god knitted the “original sin” into me and made the choice for me to be born.

                Also, who, except for the certifiably insane, would “choose” eternal torture? What kind of god behaves like a mafia boss by holding a “Judgement Gun” to your head and saying “love me, OR ELSE!” and has the audacity to call that a CHOICE?!?

                • Anonymous says:

                  I have thought about this belief many times. Both as a former catholic and after I wasn’t.
                  It feels to me like evil to condemn an innocent infant to hell by giving birth to them. They haven’t even had time to learn what wrong is yet. Gee, thanks for the label right out of the gate, mom.
                  The idea that we are all basically sinners, bad people and will do evil if we are given the chance. So not true, obviously.
                  Let me toss this one out there…Eve was not a good listener. I and many other women I know, would have, given the chance to have such a enchanted life, listened better to the one that created me, let me live in paradise (!), fed me and gave me a mate. She’s the first woman that God made? I say he should have started over with her. Maybe put a little more effort into the makings? You know, back to the chalkboard, this one’s a dud!

                • consultgtf says:

                  Who told you that YOU are “born in original sin”? God never said or is saying “love me, OR ELSE!”.

                  We as humans, who are born with working senses, though having CHOICE/right to do anything, but can we reason out “THE BASIC” How the senses are working??? or “How my organs are doing only their stipulated job” or how a living cell works, or ‘WHY SHOULD I suffer and DIE”

                  If YOU can find answer even for one of these, just ping me!

            • Anonymous says:

              “Hey god? You’re an immoral thug and a sadistic asshole! You’re petty, cruel, and a genocidal maniac! You’re a cosmic sized bully, like a kid torching helpless little ants with a magnifying glass on a sunny day. I DARE you to come here and talk to me face to face, I’ll tell you how much of a stinking pile of shit you are in person.”

              I’ve said it aloud before, numerous times, and so far nothing has happened. I’ll let you know if posting it on the interwebs produces a different result!

              (Funny when you think about it… A god so weak and powerless, that his lackeys have to come to his defense… With equally weak and powerless words.)

              • consultgtf says:

                Stella Please wait, There is an Emergency to be attended, some maybe applicable to U…

                Dear Anonymous, Hope Every part in your body is working till now, to its maximum capacity? all your dear ones are of good health?

                Kindly answer the following, atleast 1 or 2 if you are real genius!

                1. Can Man create a living cell without grafting?
                2. Man has invented many great foolish things, which you should appreciate? Have they created one working organ?
                3. One instance of Man stopping one natural calamity?
                4. Can YOU stop your heart/lungs working and show your power?
                5. Least of all, Meet your President without appointment?…
                When you cannot meet a person whom you elected as President, then How can God YOUR CREATOR, respond to your ignorant statements, I ONLY PITY for your ignorance! YOU should believe in God because, God has left you untouched till now because you have person who is a very firm Gods child in your circle praying for YOU!

                Thank you, for calling us LACKEYS, I am honored. COUNT YOUR DAYS OR HOURS EVEN MINUTES, before God meets you…

                Dear All,
                Read, Anonymous says: at June 9, 2015 at 8:05 PM
                If you agree with him, then DON’T EVER ask why are children suffering…(For Mr.Anonymous ignorance his dear ones are going to suffer… then at a ripe age Mr.Anonymous will agree existence of God) If not prove his greatness…(two people have already supported him)

            • Stella says:

              I neither believe in god nor satan because I know there is nothing of that kind. Am waiting to see what will happen to me. Do not tell me that I will die because I know we are all born to die. Some post said that god does not do things over night. But they say he is almighty. Just by word of mouth everything he commanders comes to pass then why doesn’t it happen like that these days. I will never believe in god nor satan. Both do not exist unless someone proves to me their existance.

          • Danny says:

            My understandjng is that everything exsists because of God. Nothing can go into existence with out Him because it is Him… He is in everything and with out Him it can not exisit… If you take Him out then all you have nothing… Idk if that makes sense… He is everything… And this very same everything has sent His Word to us in the flesh and has said this is His Son whom He created everything through.

          • Hayden says:

            god dosnt exist and sooner you realize that the better and even if he did exist hes a cowered he dosnt help people all he does is let them suffer and cause wars over a difference in blithe or religion , hes nothing but burden to man kind

          • Dino says:

            You said, you have a Heart? If this were true, than you would have not commented! You appear to be confused on believing if a God even exists; how so? Well you sound so angry and are passionate about fighting against something that doesn’t exist? I was a former atheist and never argued with believers as it made no sense too. You my friend are angry at a God you don’t believe exists and it seems pretty silly. In the future save your self some time and heart ache and keep your mouth shut. The heart you claim to have would appear more genuine if you simply listen to people and help them if they need it and if you don’t have time for people, then that big heart you claim to have is in fact fake, just like the God that doesn’t exist whom you hate. I’ll pray for you!

          • Stella says:

            I love your remarks. People believe out of fear so as to inherit the so call “heaven” which will never come. Total lies are in the bible. I used to believe in god so much that I would never allow anything so called bad to cross my mind.But when my son was diagonised for leukemia, I did all what the bible says, called upon the so called god, fasted, did a lot of sacrifice apparently all what the bible says, but still my son could not be healed. The bible says jesus carried carried our burdens, pain and suffering on the cross, then why does this still continue in humanity? Please let stop being decieved, to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing like god or jesus or salvation. We live by nature and there is nothing like heaven or hell. Who can prove this to me. I need concrete evidence not something fiction.

            • Dino says:

              Fair question, but I ask explain to me how God is not real? I to need concrete evidence and non of this evolution from monkeys or fish stuff. There is no way anyone can convince God exist or that God does not exist. Science is a way for man to explain how things work or don’t work, which I Love! (Science thank you for invention of electricity, car, wi-fi, etc.) If you sit and really ponder it and want an explanation all you have to think about and dig into any science project and ask yourself this; who is behind the experiment? A person, a human? Someone made something from nothing; nothing is made from nothing. It makes zero cents that a cookie would eventually turn into a cookie simply because all the ingredients are placed in a bowl. Who put the ingredients there to begin with? Man it woman, right? Ok, so now…. The Bible says we were created in God’s image, so now, someone or something created us based on “there science” God’s science. We are a work in progress and when I die or the people I love die, they will have the opportunity to ask the # 1 question all non-believers have. AND if it’s not real, what did they lose? They lived a good life without “sin”, but wouldn’t this world be a wonderful place if everyone chose to not sin? So if a non-believer dies,,,, it sure sucks for them that God is real and they might not have the opportunity to ask or find out that an after life is real. I think I’ll do nyseld and humanity a favor and believe in God, live a life with the least amount of sin as I possibly can and await to meet my creator, whether extraterrestrial or not, but either way, us “humans” chose to give our creator the name God. God Bless everyone in this forum.

              • Stella says:

                I like you answer Dino. But why is there suffering in the world and the so called almighty, all powerfull is just watching. Are certain things beyond his control? People talk of satan. Who created it. Is it more powerful than god so that every time people talk about sin and satan? Is satan beyond god’s powers. The bible purely states that god says call upon me and I will answer you and that god is our refuge in times of trouble. I did all this while my son was sick but like I was talking to the mountain that does not hear or answer. The bible still says prayers made in faith will heal the sick person. A million prayers were made for my son but it was all useless. Still that children are a blessing from god. then why does he give and again bring pain. Can you give you child a piece of bread and before he finishes eating it you grab it from him?.
                The pain and the emptiness I am in has made me believe god is just fiction and people believe for fear in something they really do not know.
                I want to live the way animals live. No god, no jesus, no nothing and see how I will go to hell. To the best of my knowledge there is no hell. jesus was a human being just like any of us and that is why he himself could not save himself from death.

                • Dino says:

                  The Bible says that we should weep with those who weep and sometimes the best thing you can do for someone who’s hurting is just to be there with them and for them. I hope someone is there for you now, praying for your lifes peace and that you at some point might be able to forgive; because I think you might be upset with the God you once believed in and now don’t. You are pissed and rightfully so. The position you are in must be heartbreaking. I cannot imagine and am unable to relate. My heart goes out to you. I pray that peace is revealed to you and that the truth you once knew about becomes the beacon someone might need to cope with the loss of a loved one. The advantage a believer has over a non-believer when dealing with any loss, is hope and unexplainable connection to something that seems like a fairytale. So many people including me believe that life matters and life after death matters, which one is more important, living in earth or in heaven, which doesn’t exist right? Or does it? What if it does exist? Then life after death would appear to matter more, as it is written that you will live an eternity! Hold on to the possibility that you might see your son. I will pray for you… God Bless you and may you find peace with your life here on earth.

                • Dino says:

                  Scientific theories are always changing. What seems to fit a few facts in one generation may be replaced by a totally different view which fits those facts and even more. There are already observations which do not presently fit the ‘big bang’. Who’s the next “Einstein” when will we revere the next person who wows us with some scientific breakthrough? With everything we know about science why is it so hard to believe that we were created? Why can’t we accept that just maybe the ‘big bang’ was extraterrestrial whom “man” eventually named “God”. The big bang was a method of our creation and we are evolving. So do we have a creator? YES WE DO! Does our creator control everything we do and everything that happens on Earth? NO! Does that mean God does not exist? NO! There is a creator that is living and breathing outside of our earth, somewhere in space, a space that we will never know while living and breathing. God…, let’s also call Him “A.I.” created earth and humans, why? I DON’T KNOW! But, YES, we were created and our creator noticed that we were a suffering living thing, so “IT” decided to help us 1000’s and 1000’s of human years ago, “IT” (GOD, A.I.) God introduced us to a way of living a lifestyle. Good vs. Evil,… I am thankful for being created, I am thankful that the Bible was introduced to humanity; the Bible, “man made” …. NO WAY,,, the Bible was not man made. Man is to dumb to come up with this lifestyle, think about it, really-really think, if man is capable of pure love? Anyone who does not believe in living a Christian like lifestyle is 100% man. Me, I am not 100% man, my mind, body, and soul is evolving into what my creator needs me to be, which is “Christ Like”. In a Christian church, a good “God Loving church” someone there is inspired, by whom? It’s gotta be God, God is LOVE. Love is very powerful…. And you, And so many will forever ask why God allows children to die.

                  God is our creator and we are now in a world that even though He created; we are now creators within His creation and He cannot control what we create in His creation. All God can and will continue to do is let us evolve, but as we continue to evolve we must remain focused to a science that is truth, which is God’s science. YES of course the word science, maybe not identical, but the word none the less, exists in Gods place. Yes, He created us and from the “big bang”, which our science discovered, which I’m sure God was like “Wow, this is awesome, my creation is pretty cool! Look what they came up with….”

                  Somtething from nothing and now we are here! That is pretty awesome- God! I believe with all my heart, mind, and soul that there is life after death. After all if you want to dig into and believe in man science, than let’s go there; physicists say the body is made up of energy, when we die where does it go? To date, there are no confirmable experiments that show that anything special happens during death, other than a general “shutting down”.  In particular, nothing that’s both “inspiring” and verifiable seems to suddenly leave the body. God educated man a long-long time ago, and gave “human energy” the word soul, our souls go somewhere, our earthly body energy, goes somewhere. God has a science that we cannot understand and no He did not create cancer or any kind of illness, MAN did, and now even a bigger twist for you! Why HE won’t control bad things from happening on earth or why he won’t heal the sick, and the sensitive one-why do children die? Humans have to ask this these questions- Why do humans choose to raise bad families? Why do humans choose to eat cancerous foods? Why do humans choose to eat fatty foods or foods in excess? (glutny) Why do humans choose to not exercise? Why do humans choose to live selfishly? Why do people Facebook more than play with there children? Why do humans let there kids play video games and watch TV all day, which leads to them getting overweight, which leads to some kind of illness? The book of life- The Bible; there is something to be learned there. And it doesn’t break my heart or maybe even Gods heart, your breaking your own heart and the people around you who believe. They love you and they care about you, and you selfishly choose to oppose LOVE, GOD, THE TRUTH. The truth is we were created and I am sorry that people believe, that when we die “that is it.”

                • consultgtf says:

                  Did YOU ever ask your close and dear ones why they ever sin against GOD the CREATOR?
                  You won’t as you are either part of it or you like what they are doing…then why question only MY FATHER! You are thinking that ALL OF YOU…who are questioning will get away easily. No, Everyone who sins against GOD only suffer, as COMMANDED by my GTF,
                  ” And God spake all these words, saying,
                  2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the house of bondage.
                  3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
                  4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
                  5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;Ex 20:1…

                  Read again, “Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”

                  Will YOU still ask why GOD is silent spectator, watching children suffering?

                  THEN HAVE GUTS TO ASK THE SINNERS FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR CHILDREN, atleast from their time…

                  • Stella says:

                    Do you remember the verse in the bible that says for all have sinned against me. So if all have sinned who is then righteous? Who will then inherit the so called kingdom of heaven? Unless some dead person comes back, we shall not be able to know what is hidden in the grave. To the best of my knowledge, the grave is the end of life and it is the richest planet on earth. No heaven and no hell only the grave the rest are just fiction because they are not seen. When the british were coming to colonise Africa, the found that Africans were very harse people who did not want to be controlled. So the only way the british could get the Africans accept what they wanted was to bring the so called religion and cooked a story of some fictitious god who they claimed to be a creator and that whoever never obeyed would go to hell. So the African had to accept what they say and believed in fear of the un seen and un realistic god

                    • consultgtf says:

                      In Matthew 11-11, YOUR Jesus is saying, Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

                      Imagine, if John the Baptist himself is LESS than the least person in Heaven, then can you understand AT LEAST NOW, How Christianity has been cheating us for 2015-30 years.

                      None of us will/can go to heaven, it is bogus spread by Roman Catholics, no everyone who believes that world, will be judged on the last day,… Please read the Bible verse Matthew 13:39-40 again, … and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

                      END OF AGE…Now the question to all, end of whose age? YOUR’s or WORLD’s, It is your end not worlds, that is the reason NO JUDGMENT FOR WORLD till now, but everyone of us is judged at the right time in everyone’s life, at different stage of their life. So suffer, as YOU are failing for your senses.

                      Can anyone among you, come back and proclaim, that they have not sinned against GOD.

          • Anonymous says:

            Explain to me why I spoke in other tongues and felt like I was having a outer body experience. This is the ONLY THING THAT KEEPS ME BELIEVING. OTHER THAN THIS EXPERIENCE THAT I HAD I DON’T BELIEVE.

            • Explain to me how a non-Mormon can sincerely pray about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and how “God’s Spirit” stirs in his heart (causing what is known as a “burning in the bosom”), if the book of Mormon is NOT true.

              As a former Pentecostal, I can STILL speak in tongues. There have been many studies on tongues, but none that show it is anything more than gibberish (i.e. there is no magical power to suddenly speak in unknown languages).

              Likewise, many people swear they have outer-body-experiences, and while they may feel authentic, when put to the test, they cannot pass even the simplest tests (such as reading a white-board in a room next door).

              The brain is an amazing thing, but it can’t always be trusted.


        • Stella says:

          Who tells you we came from the earth? Then why wouldn’t everybody be having children since they can be got from the earth.

      • Tommey says:

        True…when I pray for something that I know is good for me (i.e. good grades), God answers. Everytime.

        • DontbeIgnorant says:

          I believe you…BUT you must understand that the “God” who answers your prayer is coming straight from within your own mind and body and spirit. There is no higher power out there, other than what works through you. This has even been proven through remote viewing. They already know what happens to us after we “Die” There is NO DEATH as they’ve brainwashed you into believing. Only eternal life. Dying is like being reborn. I hope even 500Q realizes this fact one day. At least he’s on the right track and so is everyone if they are looking for the truth, you can find it from within. Don’t worry, everyone has their own truth, so don’t be ashamed of what you might find. But yes we can all connect together to the fact that we are all ONE And Eternal. That is another huge secret that the illuminat, Cabal, etc DOESN’T want you to know.

          • Nancy says:

            How then, did WE GET HERE if there is NO GOD????? I believer THERE is INDEED a higher power.

            • consultgtf says:

              THERE is God, otherwise we will be here typing and reading this, across the world, but the question is WHO is GOD?

              • Dino says:

                Just as any great countries history was written, so was the Bible.  Take America’s history, it was written by man and this is taught in schools all across the country and it is studied as fact, why?, because it happened.  So many question God’s existence, which is unbecoming to Him; when in fact the Bible is a written history, of accounts to the creation of man.  The first teacher on earth was God; pretty amazing! Why do we not see Him, why does He not teach anymore? If God were here and gave us all the answers, told us what to do or not to do, we could very well be living and experiencing a different way of living, and if you ask me it would be wierd and it would appear unethical, which I say; based on what we’ve learned as earth humans. Know that I’m saying this from a hindsight pespective, imagine it as if it were a Hollywood movie. For God to be around and for people to want to know who He is, just like they know who the president is would not work out. If it were that way; we would be autonomic humans or we would be just like many are today, pissed off humans, but more like pissed of teenagers at our parents in which case God being, mom and dad, not giving us what we want. Because if God were here, He could “give is what we want” right? That’s what this is all about, isn’t it? People all over the world throwing a tantrum, because Dad/God will not reveal Himself to you. The Bible was not man created, there is no way mankind figured out to write the Bible, and to know the powerful affects of it. We are talking about a book that seems, to not want to go away despite the many attempts to disregard and discredit it. Look at the real American history and how it was founded, oh yes…. The Bible played a huge role, it was center stage in developing the land of the free! Not so free anymore your thinking, but why? Because the Bible is “outdated”, thats what some are saying nowadays. America is pushing away biblical beliefs; faith in God from the Holy Bible is declining, and it makes for pretty scary times, if you ask me. God/mom & dad is gearing up to teach us a lesson.

                Some people will never know and accept that God created and inspired the perfect recipe for us to follow in His absence. We need to only believe and live joyful and peaceful lives among one another.  Sadly, man will always try and make sense of what they don’t know, even if it’s right in front of them.  Some will simply never believe, that the Bible teaches that there IS life outside of this earth and the pursuit of scientific theories to discredit the Bible will always be, just that. I believe our souls “human energy” has to make a connection to God and if we don’t than life after death will not be inherent. Why do I believe this? Because the Bible teaches this and I believe it is true.

                Let me try and wrap it up, look at “dog years” which is something humans came up with.  Why did we come up with dog years in the first place?  What gave us the authority to explain the theory of dog years? Humans, how old are we? How old is God? Can time really be explained?  I don’t have a problem with science as it is something, quite fun and interesting.  Science after all is man’s natural instinct to understand the world and the things in it.  The Bible gives us the opportunity to know the miracle of life on this earth.  When you begin to know and accept God in your life; only then will you understand that God is our creator and in fact inspires scientist without them even knowing it. Yes, God does exist and knowing Him is something some people choose to refuse to do, because they believe the Bible is “man written?” But aren’t you simply a man or woman trying to figure it out? What might qualify you? If this is you, good luck figuring it out on your own, but be careful with idolatry. Be careful coming up with your own version of God. Be careful where you learn about the God you want to know.

                • consultgtf says:

                  Why do we not see Him, why does He not teach anymore? Are we, not able to see HIM? Have you ever tried to see HIM, with all your heart and soul! without disturbances from this.
                  illusion world? even for a second? can YOU? just try for a minute, if you can, YOU WILL start hearing HIS voice. If YOU still able to continue… then just ping me.

                  God is here and always but not to give us all the answers, but He has already told us what to do or what not to do, in Exodus 20:1 we would very well be living and experiencing a different way of living, if at all we follow HIS COMMANDMENTS.

          • minatadros says:

            The Bible actually agrees with you:
            “Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

            SO the kingdom of God is within us … we just need to find it and then we will find God their …

            Keep searching …

        • Anonymous says:

          yeah right :\

      • TiA says:

        God’s plan is not to our understanding,, but slowly it unfolds. Why is God letting this happen to our children? The question is, why are we letting this happen? We have eyes to see what’s going on, ears to hear when a child is crying and enough sense to do something about it and yet we do nothing. Looking for someone to blame but ourselves. God did not create rapist, murders, molesters, liars etc….,,,, we have choices to make and every action has an reaction. Pain and suffering is not all bad, how can you know what is good if you don’t know what is bad? How can you help a friend mend a broken heart when your heart has never been broken? I can go on and on, but I have a son to raise. Lean not into your own understanding but have faiths that God has a plan. God knows pain, He watched His Son Jesus Christ suffer through betrayal, beat down, people spitting on Him calling Him names, whipped, dragged through the streets like a worthless piece of trash carrying his own deathbed. Why? He did nothing to deserve such treatment, nothing. Yet God stood by and watched His only begotten Son suffer and die. What parent can do that? Have the power to stop anything and not help their child? No human can do that. Our understanding is not near to Gods. Have faith that God has a plan for everything happening. Never compare God to us humans. For the sins you and I have committed, isn’t it amazing that we have a forgiving God… Just ask and ye shall receive. God bless you in your journey to finding God. I love you

        • Maria Cunningham. says:

          Loved this ,god
          Gave us free will ,otherwise we would.be automatons.l. have been through so much pain in life l don’t blame god l blame people,they have free choice to hurt or not to hurt .l am know 75yrs of age and I know God didn’t say cause war,make this child an orphan durelng WW11 leave here with no parents and no family NO! Man did. I don’t think.you would last a week with robotic designs and desires.god gave me this feeling for mankind I might not agree with what you say but I will defend you to the death to say it ” FREEDOM OF CHOICE. “Maria.

          • Anonymous says:

            Tired of hearing everyone blaming God for allowing so much suffering in this world. WE are. NOT God.

            • If you KNOW your child will grow up to kill millions, do you conceive anyway?

              The moment you have foreknowledge of what will happen as a result of your actions, you become responsible for what you bring into existence. But even ignoring this, the evil that is allowed to exist is demonstrably excessive, and clearly has nothing to do with our own desires.


              • Esther says:

                Yes, I will conceive, and if I am as powerful as God, I will seek to change the child so he will change. This has always been the mission of the Gospel anyway: To change men from darkness to light, from sin to righteousness, to turn men from the kingdom of Satan to the Kingdom of God. Christian salvation has always been about change, why deny a child the chance to change if there is even a 0.01% possibility? But that doesn’t make me 100% responsible either, I chose to bring the child into the world, I exhausted all my efforts to persuade him to become good, yet he goes in the opposite direction because he wants that. I have fulfilled my responsibility, if he ends up dead for his crimes, its his fault. How is that illogical??

      • Thank you person who won’t use their real name for helping me make my decision on whether or not god is real. The main thing that helped me decide is when you contradict your own answers. I was raised as a Baptist. And at the age of 17 I was baptized!! I was so happy to do what god wanted me to do. As I kept going to church and doing good works and reading the bible and spreading the word, I started noticing how everything we did was selfish. We were doing things so we could go to heaven, not just good deeds for other people. Tell me when have you ever done something just because it was good. never! you do things because they make YOU feel good or making others feel good makes you feel good. And if they don’t make you feel good you do them because your supposed to do good things because you were told that’s how to get into heaven. So doing things because they make you feel good or because they’ll get you into heaven sounds pretty selfish to me. So that’s when I realized, there aren’t any selfless acts, just selfish acts that effect oneself and/or others positively or negatively. I dropped out of school in 10th grade so I’m not an academically inclined individual by any means, but after that realization hit me my ability to think critically began expand exponentially. As I started to see Christians for what they were; Self absorbed Blasphemers of their own beliefs that pick and choose what parts of the bible to believe based on their own selfish views of the world, I started to finally pull the wool from my eyes and see how contrived the bible is. I’ve never felt better!! I see now how death threats and eternal promises are used to manipulate the free will. I see now how the Bible is used literally or metaphorically as needed to fit the needs of any given point. I can see how open ended the final utterance of a lost discussion keeps hope alive; “it’s all about having faith.” Well I do have faith but not in the latest in a long line of false gods that have been worshiped and discarded, but in humanities own goodwill, intellect, and genuine need for survival for the sake of ourselves and all of humanity.

        • consultgtf says:

          Welcome, aboard. Jason. We are all the same boat though, but…

          God is God and will always be, from the beginning till today, it is our beginning! But it is only we who keep on jumping to different boats, thinking that this boat may take us to our destination…
          But, God has created us with a specific purpose and if we complete the given job in the stipulated time, then we are in His boat, otherwise…

          • Jamie says:

            Look on july 5 ,2014 i was in volved in a car accident that took the life of my 3 year old daughter if you watch your child take her last breath and stuck in a car and you do what you can to pull her out and you are helpless and scared. And you watch her die.thats the most upseting thing she was calling for me and crying and i couldn’t save her.in the beginning i was so mad at god and the world but even though i still miss her so much and i still cry and sometimes i wisg everthing would be different i want her back.i still know in my heart that she is with god and one day when its my turn i will see her.a reallt good movie and book is called heaven is for real that book gave me hope.maybe all should read it.its close to Christmas and even though im in pain though all this im in hopes she us up there with god.and im saying all this from a mom that jyst lost her child,and havnt seen her other kids that servived the accident in 5 months my mom took them to help my grieving,with no money to fix my kids room before they come home,with only a little bit if food in my house i can only eat once a day,that gave up on work because if the sadness.if i can be going though all this and u can believe that what happens to us and our kids its not gods doing but i know in my heart he is trying to help us and he is taking good care of my liitle girl and i will see her again one day.every one stay strong even though it feels like we are alone we are not are children and loved ones are watching us.

          • Jamie says:

            Look on july 5 ,2014 i was in volved in a car accident that took the life of my 3 year old daughter if you watch your child take her last breath and stuck in a car and you do what you can to pull her out and you are helpless and scared. And you watch her die.thats the most upseting thing she was calling for me and crying and i couldn’t save her.in the beginning i was so mad at god and the world but even though i still miss her so much and i still cry and sometimes i wisg everthing would be different i want her back.i still know in my heart that she is with god and one day when its my turn i will see her.a real good movie and book is called heaven is for real that book gave me hope.maybe all should read it.its close to Christmas and even though im in pain though all this im in hopes she us up there with god.and im saying all this from a mom that just lost her child,and havnt seen her other kids that servived the accident in 5 months my mom took them to help my grieving,with no money to fix my kids room before they come home,with only a little bit if food in my house i can only eat once a day,that gave up on work because if the sadness.if i can be going though all this and u can believe that what happens to us and our kids its not gods doing but i know in my heart he is trying to help us and he is taking good care of my liitle girl and i will see her again one day.every one stay strong even though it feels like we are alone we are not are children and loved ones are watching us.

            • consultgtf says:

              Jamie, Same here! As told, earlier I lost my wife and son in car accident, it was not a death on the spot though,
              We have to live for others, ONLY! who are dependent on us, we cannot run away? My parents are aged 80 and 75…

              God gives such situations, TO TEST our endurance and dependability,
              Luke/16-10:-He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

              I see, there is a lot of maturity from Oct to now as time is the best healer, we will come out this trauma very soon.

              GTF, may has better plan for you…

              • jamie says:

                even though i have hopes that my little girl is with god and one in hope I will see her again. I still have the anger towards the ones that dont even want their kids and have them and I lost mine.and even though I’m in hopes that she is in heaven I still cry and want her back.the pain of losing a child is one of the worst pain to have and to lose your child by my own hands I was the one who drove the car and could not control it for that reason I blame my self for her death and I can’t get over it.and now I’m having trouble going back to work and just getting a job and I eat only once a day cause I can’t afford food on my table and I’m having trouble paying my bills.and my other children that services the accident is still for away with my family cause I can’t find the means to fix their rooms or money to bring them home so I’m still tourn away from them I feel as I am being put shed for not being able to save her or because I could not stop the car.and every day I’m in hope for seeing her again and she is with god I’m in hope to soon stop being punish and hopes that god would take my life and let me join her.thank u for the advice.

                • Anonymous says:

                  As we are walking through that we know the value of it, while others WILL one day, thats on the sentimental part, but…Jesus has said, “They are angels”

                  We are in the same boat regarding food also! Meet you in heaven!

          • Stella says:

            No thank you total lie

      • confounded says:

        From Robert’s article above:

        “In 1996, eight-year-old Michael Lyons was walking home from school when he was abducted by Robert Rhoades. Rhoades raped and tortured Michael for ten hours, stabbing him 70 times before slitting his throat and dumping him in a bush by a river. Now, I have to ask, what was God doing during those ten hours? Was he watching silently, more concerned about protecting his own identity and Robert’s free will than answering the terrified pleas of an eight-year-old?”

        From Godsentmehehasaplanforyouto’s reply below that:

        “if you are a believer God will always create circumstances for you were you have the chance to leave and get out of trouble, GOd doesnt come down from heaven and magically beat up all the bad guys, he influences what happens and guides you through inner voice and tells you how to get out of trouble,, you know the saying when people say i shouldve listen to my gut, and it would of never happened, or when something bad happeneds but before they found out, they kinda felt they needed to do something but decided not too… well alot of times that is GOD,, that is the spirit of GOd telling us and guiding us…”

        Godsentmehehasaplanforyouto, are you suggesting that the eight year old boy didn’t, but perhaps should have heeded a ‘gut feeling’, the spirit of God, which may or may not have been present for him to heed?

        • consultgtf says:

          I fully agree with you, God should have intervened and stopped Robert, but…

          There are thousands of Roberts in every nook and corner of earth!

          Do you want God to do policeman job all over the world, 24 hours daily for centuries…

          Even if HE thinks of doing this, there will be protest and rallies from the parents and relatives of Robert, with banners…



          Simple Now, how are we taking care of our children? Except for mentally retarded person, everyone else can think and reason.

          If we are suffering today, it will BE our wrong decision or our PARENTS wrong doing!


          • Anonymous says:

            “Do you want God to do policeman job all over the world, 24 hours daily for centuries…”

            You mean it’s UNREASONABLE to expect an all-powerful, all-loving god, that’s supposedly everywhere at ALL TIMES, to actually DO the things a god is fully capable of doing with absolute ease? Your deity is supposedly the creator of an ENTIRE UNIVERSE and yet, he can’t reasonably be expected to intervene and protect utterly helpless children?? Why does it seem that the free will of a child rapist and murderer is always given preference over the free will of the child not wanting to be raped and murdered??

            Wow. I can’t even.

            Religious people scare me with their crazy justifications.

            • Esther says:

              He means its absurd that as reasoning, INDEPENDENT human ADULTS, God is required to intervene 100% of the times when we as logical beings have no lack of abilities to RESTRAIN ourselves or help others when the need arises. It boils down to you and everyone else’s sense of social responsibilities. If people should be stepping up to stop child rapes, if authorities should be coming in to administer punishment and prevent future rapes, if humans themselves should conduct themselves with the highest moral compass, why do YOU demand God to come in like a genie when He created you and I absolutely CAPABLE of stopping evil, acting with decency and doing basically the same things you demand of Him in His place? Why do you want humanity to become mere puppets, or programmed cyborgs, or immature babies that need 100% supervision and overseer of an invisible all powerful Deity? WHY?

            • consultgtf says:

              Read again, “Creator of an ENTIRE UNIVERSE and yet, he can’t reasonably be expected to intervene and protect utterly helpless children?? Why does it seem that the free will of a child rapist and murderer is always given preference over the free will of the child not wanting to be raped and murdered??”

              Very nice to see a sentimental person writing this, Where were YOU? when the Child’s Parent or Grand parent disobeyed…
              God Commandment which is very clear,
              20 And God spake all these words, saying,

              2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

              3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

              4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

              5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

              6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments…

              Is every child born on this earth having problem? or Only few… Why? Ask their Parents or Grand Parents, about their SINFUL PAST for their dear ones to suffer and validate God’s Command!!!

              • Stella says:

                Isn’t that what he is supposed to be doing? If the human police can do it then why not him, more over the claimed ‘almighty’ god is none sense. I am wish wishing this to happen to any one but if you want to know that god does not exist, let your own child get terminally ill like leukemia and pray to god day in day out and wait if he will heal your child. People just claim that they are spirtually happy and contented but who knows what is in side them?They just pretend.

                • Santa Cause says:

                  Your arguments sound logical and intelligent, however, what I am saying is all these questions and arguments, when you strip away the nuances, they are no different than the logic and reasoning offered to Eve in The Temptation and Fall of Man, Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

                  Why did she bite into the lie of the serpent?

                  We can assume that ‘The Word of God’ regarding the forbidden fruit was delivered to Eve by a man, her husband, Adam, so she likely assumed there was an error in translation; she was the most recent iteration of mankind and contained improvements Adam missed out on and, therefore, made the conclusions she made about God being an incompetent lier. She was able to confirm her conclusions with her own eyes as she looked at the obvious features pointed out by the serpent.

                  However, “Things aren’t always what they seem” was the lesson there for Eve, and then Adam, but so few of us learn that lesson and we miss the second chance.

                  When they realized they had been lied to they didn’t take any responsibility but blamed others. That is a glaring second chance missed by the progeny of Adam, us, when we follow in the same rut. Been there, done that so many times myself. You have too. Blaming others just keeps you in the same rutted tracks leading to the ovens.

      • Anonymous says:

        The Holy spirit, has credit in cleaning inside, so we can live like Jesus would want us too. Asking God is great. And to think he doesn’t appear uninvited is silly. He’s always been, in and through all. I don’t know alot about alot of things and how each purpose God has for each creature or thing. But I do know, it is for His or Her Good purpose. He made man in his image. Woman from his side. His spirit carries me. Jesus listens. I have had suffering. But if Gods way of saving is perfect then who am I to complain. I do complain that there is suffering. But im not sure it does any good. People say Jesus died to save from sin. I believe that He did. And mabey thats why. Idk. If I guessed. My God would never hold his children accountable for His own choice. Only he can heal and fix. And create. With his spirit we create. Iike to be in the light positive. But he made the darkness and there is good there too. I hope he saves us from the crazy killikg and disease ect. His spirit is just as strong as Jesus himself. He can heal. I e been well all my life. I cant look at God as being anything than always Good. Till forever. Call me nuts but I’m the sanest I know. Well, mabey a few others too. Point is complaining doesnt work. Jesus does.

      • Someone says:

        god creates situations where you can leave and get out of trouble? Always? Ask Sylvia Likens about that….oh wait, you can’t. She’s dead. Died in 1965 after months of torture, starvation, and beatings at the hands of her foster family.

      • Anonymous says:

        Your fucking nuts man!

        • consultgtf says:

          Dear, Sir was right in saying. “Children don’t suffer! comparatively But it is the parents who suffers more, if they love the child.
          The child will cry for the pain, it undergoes it is only physical, but for the parent it is both physical and MENTAL, and this pain is more severe.

      • arrogantfundamentalattitude says:

        Tell it to the 19 month old that was beaten, raped and killed by its biological father today. But I am so glad that your soul has been cleansed by Him though. How I WISH that baby would have garnered some of our all powerful gods’ attention while it screamed in absolute pain for help. Oh, that’s right, He was busy helping you out. Telling you “just leave now”. Let’s all thank god for that! Boy, he really is amazing.

      • Stella says:

        Kindly confirm that you you have and will never ever have any pain in you or your beloved one? god is not real. He is a fiction and by saying god, it was just away the whites wanted to manuplate and control others. The secrets are now being revealed. The bible tells all lies. Nonesense.

      • Anonymous says:

        Thanks for nothing there. We are discussing why God allows children to suffer and die. Leave your diary entries to your autobiography…oh and God, of course.

    • Innocent says:

      To 500 Questions, note Amos 3:6 “If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it? ”

      Note also the sequence of events there. Warning and then calamity.

      Now, God has a plan of redemption for mankind but that does not mean that all will be redeemed, as the Bible indicates. God id not partial. He will give everyone the opportunity to understand the Scripture at the Great White Throne, and then all will have the opportunity to accept the word and live, or reject it and be destroyed for good. This is what the Bible says.

      Evil exists in the world today because satan who’s the architect of it all is around. He’s the one responsible for all the sufferings and deaths you mentioned, but the deal is this: God will resurrect all those to shame satan.

      To us puny human, it might not make sense. But if you’re going to live for a billion years, which is nothing compared to eternity, any death is like a really really quick nap. That’s why Paul said that no suffering of this life is worthy to be compared to what awaits us.

      Your protestant background and satan is to blame for all your confusion.

    • joe says:

      Man is evil because of his denial or disobedience of his creator.

      • And animals are evil because…?

        • Anonymous says:

          You guys have been fooled. The ONLY people going to hell are the people who “acknowledge” that they are sinners. They made that word up to make you feel guilty. It ends up you being reincarnated back into this hell over and over again. You must rise above this crap. WE MUST rise above it. One day we all will. I will never acknowledge to being a sinner. I wont fall into that trap, but I know 100% in my heart and soul that I am a good person and the TRUE GOD would NEVER even think about sending me to an eternal Hell.

          Nobody is perfect we all make mistakes, but even according to the bible’s strict terms I am not really a sinner, I don’t lie, cheat or steal, and I do go by my heart. I also dont take drugs anymore either. I’ve gotten clean and I have no problem with accepting a “Savior” if that was truly the case. But there is absolutely not proof what so ever of us having any savior. Infact, there is proof that we DONT have one. So, I hope you guys wake up soon, so you can go to Heaven as well! Heaven is real, but to get there you must be high vibrational state. “God” doesnt send anyone to heaven or hell. We send our selves there. What these aliens are trying to do is trick and deceive you into going on your own, through your own guilt of “Sin” when infact NONE OF US ARE GUILTY….unless we did something bad on purpose which went againt our hearts. “God put his law on my heart” if you wanna get all technical about it.

          PS- Animals are not evil. lol Animals have a great spirit inside of them, and they are one and the same as us, we are all connected. None of us are evil either. The only evil comes from “Robots” and Computers and technology and stuff like that, which was never meant for this world. Also I consider ignorance to be “Evil” but other than that, everything is good. We all will make it to Heaven one day. We are all working on different levels and paths. God doesn’t wear a watch. We dont have any time limit. However long it takes, or however many lives it takes to get our vibrational state up is fine. The real “God” would never judge any of you either. Keep that in mind, and NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE to being a “Sinner” That is the trap that so many are being deceived into.

          • “Reincarnation”? “High vibrational state”? Computers are evil? (Then why are you using one?) Mind if I ask where all this insider-information came from?

            • Anonymous says:

              Me using a computer is not evil. It’s when the computer starts using you, that it becomes evil. Basically anything that is not natural was not meant for us in this world, and will only cause problems and suffering. Most people blame it on the devil, but that’s not the case. The devil is a scapegoat to blame our problems on, so that we’ll never get them solved.

              But I will admit, using a computer or technology of any king is certainly not the best for mine or your vibrational state though, so I guess you could imply it’s “Evil” Our english language is flawed, so “Evil” can be interpreted into many different things. When I say, Evil I dont mean like a conscious devil waiting to devour us.

              Now, where did I get this insider info? Direction from inside! From within! That is the ONLY place you can find “God” and the truth. Never outwards, never in books. BUT reading is great, because I actually had to study for years and years to get the data and a bigger picture on what is all going on here. Then I asked myself for the truth and it surely came. Anyhting can be true in your own mind. This is my truth and I would suggest others to pick up on this as well, as this truth can literally bring you out of hell. I try to keep my vibrational state up, even while using this evil technology, if i use it out of LOVE and to help others, it can keep my spirts high. And then other times, it’s good to go out in nature and GROUND YOURSELF, that will truly be the best thing for you.

              Best of Luck, we are all in this together.

              • So… you looked inside yourself and came away with the conclusion that you needed to adjust your vibrational state in order to get into heaven…? I don’t think I’d get that by looking inside myself.

                Surely you didn’t come up with this idea all by yourself. Is this an idea shared by anyone else, of any other religious/spiritual faction? Or are you trying to start a new one? I’m just trying to get some idea of where you’re coming from.

                • Anonymous says:

                  Wow, I am surprised you have never heard of this before. I am not the one who came up with this actually. It is a widely held opinion by many spiritual people. I looked from within to VERIFY if it was true or not. Definitely google ” High Vibrational state to heaven” or something along those lines, if you’ve never heard of this! It is totally real. Not a lie like Christianity. Even science proves that everything has a vibrational state. The lower the vibrational state it has, the more solid it will appear. Even our tables, walls, etc are actually not solid. They are just vibrating so slowly that you cannot see through them or walk through them. BUT you actually CAN Walk through walls if you know how to do it. It’s like an interdimensional thing. It’s hard for me to explain it all here, but I have actually been to the 4th dimension after a serious psilocybe mushroom overdose. (This also made me more spiritual and I get attacked by “Demons” ever since) but yes I went there, awake and alive, and I could see through everybody that I interacted with, even the animals. I could literally see and walk through their bodies if I wanted to. No joke. Things are not what they seem to your naked eye. We are all living in an illusion right now. A dimensional illusion. So, what one person sees, another may not

                  • Is that like how Mormons pray to validate THEIR information? And how God confirms to them that the Book of Mormon is true?

                    I don’t buy the idea that one can just “look inside” to validate truth, simply because logic dictates that if people are coming to mutually exclusive conclusions, then this is no way to verify a truth.

                    But you still haven’t answered my question, which suggests to me you’re trying to hide something. New Age movement? Scientology? What section of the bookstore would I find more about your beliefs?

                    • Anonymous says:

                      Barrack Obama is a clone. This is what they don’t want you to know. Barrack is not an alien himself I don’t think, as a clone is just a clone. The aliens are the ones who MAKE THE CLONES, the ones who CONTROL OBAMA….they appear human, they are not. I knew, before we even had internet, I got a psychic vision (obviously from within, since nobody told me this, and there was no internet) about George Bush being an Alien. I was young at the time, I had no reason at all to think that out of the blue. Then I find out years later, my thought had some merit to it! And I still believe to this day, our government is controlled by Aliens. Just come to vegas and look at that Luxor light…lol not created by humans. Look at Pyramids….lol not created by humans. Look at dead sea scrolls, bible, etc. Lol, not created by humans. Now as for your question that you say I am avoiding, I have no idea what it was? I am not hiding anything. Infact i am trying to get the truth out there. You should stop focusing so much of your energy on the bible and christianty, and start looking into other areas. I dont believe in scientology, just another religion which has some truth to it, but also some BS. Like I said, ONLY TRUTH COMES FROM WITHIN. That doesn’t mean you’ll get rock solid truth everytime you look from within, and you might even come up with a different truth than I did. It doesn’t make it false. You need to understand the power of the mind and how it is truly the most powerful thing in the universe, your mind IS GOD and it can defeat anything. But mind control is 100% evil and you should google illuminati mind control if you want some real shocking, disturbing info. I wouldnt recommend reading it though. It’s extremely disturbing. Even the authors (Who believe in god) said that just reading it could be fatal, if you’re not ready for that information yet. You don’t graduate kindergarten and go to college right away if you know what I mean.

                    • Anonymous says:

                      The person claiming Obama is a clone, is a classic example of the harm that can come about, from a lack of critical thinking. If a person can believe that fairy tales are true, they can believe any other bullshit is true too!

          • consultgtf says:

            You are right,”The ONLY people going to hell are the people who “acknowledge” that they are sinners! as others, who are actually sinners (on daily business)are not punished in the so called, “Hell” but on earth itself, For..their sins are so powerful that the people associated with them are affected for generations, that the main reason for so many children suffering! their parents would have enjoyed few forgettable, illusion moments, but the person in agony will always remember…

            According to each and every person they are good but the judgement is not based on our individual thoughts,(even a murderer is right, as per his situation!) but…
            God has given us Ten Commandments, initial ones for His deity but all others are for us, HUMANS!
            Trees are also not evil either, then why are being cut and punished? Animal, spirit is so high that, they can have sex with others, partner! it can be…while the owners watch helplessly…
            But we, HUMANS call them “Senseless Creatures” as they can’t think and reason like us.

            Humans are priceless creation of GTF, which we cannot acknowledge when we are young AND ALIVE, but once we get older we understand,
            “In youth we learn, But only in our age we understand”,
            I meant the Word of God, sometimes called as “Thee Bible”

        • Santa Cause says:

          Animals are evil because… they ask too many questions? I don’t know. Give us a hint.

    • Esther says:

      I still find it a very funny thing that atheists and make believe “Christians” always raise the same question and point fingers at God for every bad thing that happens in the world.

      “God always had the opportunity to say, I refuse to create mankind, because it will result in the creation of evil and suffering. By choosing to create us, God chose to create suffering where none previously existed. An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser….

      Clearly, God offers us NO protection if he refuses to spare even the most innocent from the most evil. Does it stand to reason that God would want to save guilty sinners in the next life, when he won’t even save the most innocent in this one?”

      Boy oh boy, who do you think you are trying to dictate in the first place? Do you know Him? Have He spoken to you about WHY He created mankind the way it is? As logical as you try to sound here, you are speaking YOUR side of the story and YOUR own twisted understanding of creation. You don’t have any understanding of the mind of God to even be able to evaluate His thinking, so your argument will never stand.

      The real conundrum

      “So why didn’t God just design a punishment that didn’t involve punishing innocent children?”

      You obviously can’t distinguish God’s active punishment and the fruits of a wrongdoing. Whether you like it or not, we live in a world where our actions impact us, our children and even other human beings. Disease, famine etc can never happen without human’s abuse of nature or greed for more at the expense of others. At the end of the day, its ALL people reaping what they sow and then their descendants reaping what they sow. So leave the term “punishment” out of this cycle please, thanks.

      “In fact, if God were truly benevolent, he would see to it that only the absolute minimum amount of suffering existed. Anything beyond that would be, by definition, unnecessary, and God would be malevolent for allowing it.”

      Sure, God should ensure the absolute minimum amount of suffering, so people can kill, steal, wage wars and not be able to cause others to suffer, and then these same malicious people will see that they can continue killing, stealing, waging wars since ULTIMATELY, they can only do minimum amount of damage. Wow, doing evil without much consequences is definitely a good idea for stopping evil or making people learn how horrible their actions really are…. NOT!

      “Why is it that God can help us with so many little things, but he can’t (or won’t) stop lunatics from raping and killing children?”

      Yeah, the same people who complain that God doesn’t babysit grown adults by stopping lunatics from doing evil will complain in the next second that they have no freedom because their own parents always try to babysit them. And the worst thing is, lunatics most likely won’t stop being lunatics, so what amount of babysitting should God do? Hmm?

      “Man did not design harmful viruses, bacteria, and natural disasters. Would it really destroy our faith or free will if we lived in a world without these things? Wouldn’t we still be free to lie, cheat, steal, assault, kill, destroy, and reject God without these things?
      “However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?”

      Once again, the world-where-evil-actions-don’t-yield-evil-outcomes nonsense. And you think such a world would be better? Think again.

      “As a Christian, I may have been able to rationalize such loss if it always resulted in other people becoming saved; but it’s hard to imagine that such a scheme would work, or that God would kill children just to bolster salvation rates. (Why not just kill off vocal atheists?)”

      Woah woah woah, the same person who says children should not be killed is offering an alternative of killing atheists!!! Please don’t say you’re a Christian when such horrendous contradictions and evil come right from your mind!

      “However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?”

      The REAL conundrum is the cognitive dissonance that people like you demonstrate when you try to argue for the existence/non-existence of God. On one hand, you hope God exists so that all the blame of evil can be shifted to Him. On the other hand, you hope God doesn’t exist so you can continue living life your own way and not give a damn about the millions of children that you claim are dying. Are you kidding us or something?

      If the sane people would stop wasting their time on mindless debates on whether God exists and instead use their time to help out the less fortunate children etc, the whole world would turn out just a little less upsetting. But if the same people would enjoy their time laughing at God-believers, mocking how God does not stop evil, yet themselves couldn’t give a damn about the suffering of others, then they are no less different than the “God” they complain about 24/7. They are just projecting their own indifference, hypocrisy, bs reasoning and whatnots onto a Divine Being they have zero understanding about. End of story.

  2. nrhatch says:

    I agree with your reasoning. I do believe in a “higher power” within us . . . but not a paternalistic or personified God. I don’t believe that anything is “God’s Will.” That’s just a myth to keep people in Church.

  3. Malcolm says:

    I lost my 5 year old daughter to cancer. She spent her last 3 years in extreme pain and prayed daily to God to heal her so she could go home and to school, but it was not to be. The only reason I found that made sense was that as God had to send his only Son, Jesus to save us, and who too sufferred and died, in the same way this must be the only way we sinful adults can be saved, through the sufferring of these innocent children.

    • rickray1 says:

      You and your make-believe god are pathetic. Make sure you don’t have any more children.

      • Anonymous says:

        Religious or not it really takes a low life to say something like that.

        • rickray1 says:

          “….the only way we sinful adults can be saved, through the suffering of these innocent children.” Any god, who creates a hell for his children, should be the first to burn in his imaginary, sadistic, hateful hell-hole. With 30 to 40 thousand children a day dying of starvation & disease, do you really think I’m the low life? Nobody wants to see any child suffer for any reason especially as a sacrifice to a monster of a god. The natural universe is what rules us and it cares not for our feelings. That’s reality!

          • Anonymous says:

            God never created Hell for his Children. It was created as punishment to the angels that rebelled. God also does not send a single solitary one of His children to Hell, people choose to follow God and believe in Christ at which point they become His children. Not a single one that does so will ever experience Hell. The ones that reject and deny God will experience Hell, not because He sends them there but because they chose that path for their life instead of heading His calls and warnings.

            • They choose hell? Why would anyone say to themselves… “I can either go to heaven and have eternal bliss, or I can suffer in hell forever… Hummm, I think I’ll choose hell, that way I can enjoy a few short years of sin!”

              People disbelieve because they look at the available evidence — like I’m doing here — and conclude that God is unlikely to exist. So if they go to hell, it’s because God made His existence and religion-of-choice so imperceptible that even those who are searching for it can find no better evidence for it than for any other god.

              • Anonymous says:

                Have you ever picked up a bible and searched for Him? Have you ever attempted to have a personal relationship with him. I assume based on your answers that you would say no. The Lord says that any who search for him with a pure heart will find him waiting. In other words, until you can search for him without seeking to disprove His existence then you will not find him. You search with such faithless hearts that you convince yourself he is not here.

                If God is not real, then where did we come from? DNA itself is an example of creation. Such small and intricate ways that make us who we are is proof of creation. And if not, then you would rather choose to think that randomness created beings that live with such grand design, not just in them but all around them. If you choose to believe that instead of the evidence of a creator then you have flaws in your reasoning.

                God is good. His understanding is greater than our own. Can I tell you why children suffer? No. Nor could any of you. Nor will any of us. But the Lord promises that the joys of heaven are unfathomable to any of us. We could never hope to understand the joys of what he’s created, nor can we understand the plan that surrounds the world. We couldn’t understand it if he explained it to us. How can we ask Him to explain something as complex as this when people cannot even turn from there faithless hearts to believe in him. The faithful will be rewarded, and the wicked punished.

                Question me if you like.

                • Hi His_Servant10,

                  Yes, I sought and served God with all my heart for over 30 years. I loved God very much, and would still like too! It was never my intention to doubt, I only wanted to challenge myself by questioning my faith. Little did I know, the explanations of the skeptics made far more logical sense than the Bible did. Despite what Christians may say, I did not leave the faith out of a desire to be sinful or because I was angry at God, I just sought the truth.

                  “If God is not real, then where did we come from? DNA itself is an example of creation.”

                  You know, you sound just like the old me. I would recommend reading question #36 for info about DNA and design. But in short, I would say that DNA is extremely small, that molecules are able to assemble and copy themselves much more naturally at the micro-level (something we can’t really observe living here at the macro level), and that the sheer abundance of the atoms in the universe makes the improbable probable. It’s like the odds of rolling a 1 on a thousand dice at once. It’s extremely improbable, but given a zillion sets of dice and an eternity to roll them, it’s only a matter of time. There are no large, non-living objects we can point to that clearly illustrate design, only life, which is unique.

                  Additionally, we can assume that God is far more complex than any cell or atom, so is He too an example of creation? If not, then you must admit that if complex gods can “just exist” without being created, then there is a chance less complex things, like us, can “just exist” without a creator.

                  “God is good.”

                  Is He? I’m not God, but I certainly wouldn’t do things to innocent children that God allows, nor would I ever condemn anyone to hell for not loving me.

                  “The faithful will be rewarded, and the wicked punished.”

                  You say “The Lord promises that the joys of heaven are unfathomable to any of us,” but those joys will never be known to the people who are punished. These may be people who were born into a life against their will, treated with cruelty as children, grew up to be cruel to others, leading them to be punished forever by God. How on earth is this good? How is this fair? It’s not, and all the believer can do is throw up His hands in confusion and say “We couldn’t understand it if he explained it to us!” I can explain it easily by saying there is no God, there is only nature, which is why life is so cruel.

                  • Brian Goff says:

                    This is crazy, im tring to find an answer to one cruel act and reading what hes saying and find myself agreeing with him while praying to god that im only trieng to find understanding.

                  • Anonymous says:

                    Therevis no arguing for the points you have and I will not pretend to have the answers. Nor do you have the answers. Nobody does. It’s faith for a reason, and some have it while others don’t. Part of being a Christian is admitting you don’t have the answers and seeking for them, which is whatithnk all of us are doing. The answers to our questions will always arise with new arguments against them, this works both ways.

                    My main argument to your last statement that “life is so cruel” is that there is just as much positive as there is negative. We as a society only focus on the tragedies and disasters, it’s the same reasons Jerry springer draws more attention than anything intellectual, we are intrigued by the evils of this world. I’ve heard countless healing stories, life changing stories, and stories that can only be explained by the supernatural. I think there is just as much good if not more than evil in our world than we are aware of.

                    As for child born diseases/sicknesses, I know many people who have been born with these things and made something of themselves while at the same time praising God throughout. These people, when they turn to the creator, are inspirations to non believers and draw in believers. I think these things are beyond our understanding, but like you pointed out a Christian could use this for any argument.

                    As for these tragedies.. Sometimes I believe that God uses tragedies to turn people, but for the most part I think we shift the blame to God. Are we not the culture that pushed Him out of our schools? Aren’t we the nation that wanted the phrase “under God” removed from our pledge? Don’t we allow violence like this to spread and do as it pleases while we cut the jobs of those who protect us so we can spend money on things we don’t need. We rule out allowing a teacher to hold a concealed weapon to defend themselves and there classrooms in incidences like this. We force God out of our lives and society and then when tragedy strikes we wonder, where is he? We have pushed God out and turned the blame on him rather than ourselves. His word is for daily use, not to run and find your bible when in need of something. These children were innocent, but is it possible that our lack of faith created this suicidal gunmen?!? Servant 10

                    • “It’s faith for a reason”

                      Because there was no evidence, faith became a requirement. (Faith is actually a requirement for belief in all invisible gods.)

                    • anna says:

                      The problem is, religion will NEVER give you any real answers. Religion goes out of it’s way to avoid being questioned. Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people? “It’s part of his plan”. What plan is that? “That’s not for us to know.” Why not? “Because that’s just the way it is.” Why is it that way? “Because that’s the way he wants it.” Well, why doesn’t he at least come down here and tell us that himself, or at least give us some tiny bit of proof that he actually exists? “He doesn’t have to. You just have to believe and if you don’t you will be sentenced to an eternity of torment and pain so just stop asking questions and have faith.” Science, on the other hand DOES provide real, proven, substantial answers to many questions. It may not provide ALL the answers, but it will never threaten you with eternal pain and suffering just for asking.

                    • katwarts says:

                      An omnipresent God cannot be “pushed out of” a school or invited into one. If God is present all the time everywhere, it doesn’t matter what phrases we put on our money or whether we “allow” prayer in schools. Anyone can offer up a silent prayer any time they like and no one else would even know it.

                    • MAK says:

                      To touch on one of your points. If you saw a child in trouble, would you not help that child. So why does the all powerful GOD not step in to help that child? Not that I do or don’t believe, I just don’t get it.

                  • Well put. Thank you.. I especially like “we can assume that God is far more complex than any cell or atom, so is He too an example of creation? If not, then you must admit that if complex gods can “just exist” without being created, then there is a chance less complex things, like us, can “just exist” without a creator.” That is one I am hearing alot from my Wife.

              • Esther says:

                Oh sure they can choose hell, by convincing themselves that hell doesn’t exist, so they end up there not believing that they ever could be there. Is that not possible, since humans have a habit of denying the truth when the truth is the most unpleasant?

                Unfortunately for them, they start trusting others’ reasoning more than their own experiences, and then bit by bit, they drink in the poison of the devil. I can tell you I’m well acquainted with suffering, and I have done much more questioning than you did, even questioning God outright, but I didn’t trust what others try to tell me about God like YOU did. Either you didn’t have a life changing experience that made you absolutely sure that God exists, or you wilfully denied God’s revelation to you and followed what mere and limited humans attempt to convince you about God. I hope its the earlier case because if its the latter, I can’t imagine the horror of what will happen when you find out who is really right.

                If first century Christians like Paul could write in Romans that no men has any excuse for not knowing God’s existence, then you or anyone else certainly don’t have any excuse. Meanwhile, Paul and the others died for the cause of Christ, and they lived in times just as confusing as the times you are in. There were heresies and false doctrines all over the place to convince them otherwise about their faith, yet they never wavered. If they can do that, then those who defect away from God have only themselves to blame.

            • Anonymous says:

              You and whoever else thinks god is so great has to be brainwashed. God, if there is one is a child abuser and he abuses animals as well. If he is so great and powerful and can do anything, but chooses to sit by and do nothing as these babys and animals get tortured,then he is sadistic.there is no good reason for torture to the innocent. So you keep believing your god is so great as you watch around you everything that happens to children and animals and tell yourself the old cliche… everything happens for a reason…. … bullshit.it happens because it entertains god. I hope he rots in hell.

          • eric says:

            for someone who dosnt believe in God- you sure have so much animosity towards him. I am thankful for people with spirituality because they find peace even in tragedy- where as ones like you find anger and aggression in it.

            • Anonymous says:

              Interesting to me that you avoided argueing any of my other points, besides that of it being faith. Faith is essential to Christianity for a reason. Its just like people who mooch off of a successful friend. “Well, since he shows me he has all the money and power, thats why I love him.” If God was to show in clarity, as he did to doubting Thomas who would not believe until he saw the nails in Christs hands, then people would belive for the wrong reasons. Because they had to. Because there is no other option, which takes away free will. God searches for our love just as a father seeks the love of his children, not because they have to, but because they want to. Do you have children? If yes, then I assume you love your child. That is the love Christ compares Gods love for us as. If your child does something wrong, you punish them, you show them it is wrong so that they will not repeat it. Our punishment for Adams sins is the suffering in this world, and rather it is not God that is allowing this suffering, but us who have so faithlessly turned from Him and used him as our scapegoat for suffering. I belive that as a culture, we treat God as an all or nothing type of God. If God is “good” he should end all suffering. Well, are we not all guilty? Have we not all sinned, commited some form of wrong? And do we continue to do so knowingly? It is not that God has abandoned us, but that we have pushed him away from us and then expect him to cover our wrongs while we live faithless lives that are not fullfilling to his glory.

              As for children who pass and their parents are left to mourn, the bible also refernces that children will be welcomed into heaven, that we can only wish to have hearts as pure as a childs. So while mourning is necessary, praise the Lord that these children are with there true father, who has the most love for them because he created them. The Bible also talks about suffering, and Paul says how blessed are you who suffer and still believe. Think about Job from the old testament. God allowed Satan directly to punish Job with disease, famine, death, and a loss of wealth. But still Job turned to the Lord and praised Him, and even Jobs’ wife turned to him and said, even with all of this suffering why do you not curse God. The point of this story is that through all suffering we are to praise the Lord, and we are blessed for it evne though it may be out of our understanding. Job did not understand yet he continued to praise God. We are to follow this example. Hopefully some of you reading will go to a local church, or even a few local churches, and week answers and God, those who seek Him with open hearts, will find Him waiting with open arms. – Servant 10

              • Sorry, I was trying to keep it short to avoid a long, thin, column of text. (I don’t really care for the way Word Press handles chat threads.) Feel free to start a new thread at the bottom.

                To address your other points:
                1) I obviously don’t think killing children is necessary for free will (at least, it wasn’t in Adam’s case).
                2) I don’t think it’s necessary for God to cause children to suffer to somehow help improve our faith, or bolster his salvation rates.
                3) The amount of good in the world does not change the fact that God (assuming He exists) still allows some children to suffer, there should be no unnecessary suffering.
                4) If God heals people, why heal one child and destroy another? Why does God love THAT child more than another?
                5) As for the idea that a lack of faith results in dead children, the leading causes of death in children are: accidents, congenital malformations and cancer, not school shootings. If it truly is a new lack of faith that has lead to these deaths, then why have we simultaneously managed to greatly decrease the childhood mortality rate? Perhaps God approves of our rejection of Him? I don’t think one idea follows from the other.

                “If God was to show in clarity, as he did to doubting Thomas who would not believe until he saw the nails in Christs hands, then people would belive for the wrong reasons. Because they had to. Because there is no other option, which takes away free will.”

                Not true. Adam is said to have known God personally in the Garden of Eden. Adam walked with Him and talked with Him, but still had the free will to reject him at any time, and we would not say that this experience forced him to love god, as if he had no other choice. There’s no reason why we couldn’t still be in the Garden of Eden, subject to the same test, and punished (if punishment is even necessary) in the afterlife.

                “Do you have children?”

                Yes, but wouldn’t desire any of the things to happen to them that God seems to allow. In fact, it was having children that made me wonder how God could ever punish us. If my children chose not to love me, I would still want them to be happy. That is real love, not casting them off for eons because they didn’t love me back.

                “Our punishment for Adams sins is the suffering in this world, and rather it is not God that is allowing this suffering, but us who have so faithlessly turned from Him and used him as our scapegoat for suffering.”

                I wouldn’t punish my children for my sins, why should they be punished for Adam’s? Why should we believe this is even an acceptable idea? I think, to the contrary, that man has made a scapegoat out of Adam in order to excuse God’s immoral behavior, as if it were somehow possible to blame the painting for being bad, instead of blaming the painter. If we are “evil,” it is because God has created us with a desire for evil, instead of creating us to always see evil as wholly repulsive.

                “…praise the Lord that these children are with there true father, who has the most love for them because he created them”

                Someone once said, “Why would I trust a god to care for my children who had to drown his own?” I don’t know how much love He has for them if considers them innocent, yet can justify torturing them anyway.

                God truly doles out punishment with no rhyme or reason, causing the innocent to suffer while prospering those who do evil. We are told that this is because God will rectify things in the afterlife (cross your fingers), but this also bares the appearance of not being designed. Perhaps God has to do this just to avoid detection. God must do everything He can to make it look like He doesn’t really exist.

                I think the message of Job is that people should stop asking questions about why God doesn’t respond and just believe. If it is a true story, then God is a serious scumbag if He knew Job’s heart but tortured him anyway. Would YOU torture your son or daughter and kill their children just to see if they loved you? Even if you already knew the would? That’s pretty sick. All God had to do was show Satan how that hypothetical scenario would’ve played out, so Job didn’t have to suffer for no reason.

                So you can take joy in the suffering of innocence of you want, but I still say that if God exists, He’s one messed up dude.

              • Tony says:

                If God intervened in everything evil that happens would be free to make our own choices or merely just puppets? In freedom and choice you get the bad and the good, u sound like a whiny child who doesn’t get his way, typical of liberals. You blame God for our evil choices, really. You must be the type of person who blames everyone else for your failures, take responsibility. We screwed up a beautiful and loving gift of our loving Father, not him, us. You can hate God all you want, remember one thing when you die, and you will, you will not have any excuse when you lived in country with more churches on every street than anywhere else on earth.

                • Sam says:

                  Tony, I would not hesitate to give up my freedom if it meant that millions of innocent children didn’t have die of starvation every year, and I sure as hell don’t want to follow a God who allows that to happen.

                  • DontBeIgnorantWEAREGODandweCANLOVEandstopTHERape says:

                    And also don’t forget that we DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL! That is a crock of shit excuse. If we truly had free will we could JUMP to the moon or better yet, we could have the free will to go to heaven without needing to accept Jesus first. No one in their right mind would wish or want to go to “Hell” especially the evil incomprehendable one the bible described of. We are forced into lives of slavery. Nothing free about this. Do not make the mistake of believing that you have free will because you do not. If you did, then you could have the free will to live forever…but we don’t do we? In a sense we do have the free will to look into our own minds through and this is the TRUE POWER of GOD

                    • Sam says:

                      Well I wouldn’t go as far as to say that having free will means we should basically be gods… but I do agree with you when you say that God limits our freedom in the fact that we have to do what he says in order to go to heaven

                • ok so God is perfect… he makes angels, including one named Lucifer. Lucifer a creation of a perfect god decides fuck em. (thats the first thing GOD does to prove he isn’t perfect. Evil from his own creation.) Perfect god makes man in his own image which means man is perfect because god is perfect he creates perfection. God then tells his “free willed perfect creation” what to do and not to eat from a tree that perfect god put in the garden himself. Because it will give him knowledge, and the perfect god declares knowledge will also make him evil. (or in my eyes doubt GODS existence.) Perfect god then creates a “lesser” human, a woman, to keep the perfect image of god, man, happy. lesser being must still be perfect because a creation made from perfection(man) by perfection(GOD) is still perfection yet she decides fuk em because the perfectly created angel Lucifer that now hates the perfect god because Lucifer did something imperfect (which is impossible to do if your perfect. (Wait did lucifer eat the fruit? I don’t recall him doing that. How did Lucifer become evil? ) And then the perfect woman does something imperfect by not following her perfect creators ONLY law…..does any of this make sense??? What I’m trying to say is this…. Not only is our perfect GOD creating imperfections but he is the sole purpose in which evil exist at all. If there was at one point nothing but GOD then GOD created both evil and good. but if GOD is perfect then how is that right? that must mean GOD is good and evil! or one better, he DOES NOT EXIST!! By the bye, I don’t hate GOD I hate SOME of the things that people have done in his name over the course of human history in the name of faith.

                  • consultgtf says:

                    Dear Theobald,
                    God takes personal care of HIS OWN, people who believe in HIM whole Heartedly! but punishes sinners for generations.
                    Creation of Human was His Master piece,
                    Imagine a pump working from the time it was conceived till its death, with rest without overhauling?,
                    Do we have with camera with intelligence and to recognize and recollect the events associated with that image?
                    To recognise taste? sound? Scent ?Feelings? …

                    In India, As a parent our children we expect love, honesty, loyalty, faithfulness, ownership.. it is expected from both sides but if there is any slight change in these then it is PSEUDO, which is, NOT Our GOD THEE FATHER! Hope you are with me?

                    ps:Spirits can’t fuc*, as they don’t have to satisfy their senses, as they are beyond space and time.

          • consultgtf says:

            Thank you, Your feelings for Children is heart whelming, But…

            I have my FOODS regularly, minimum 3 times a day, or whenever I want… snacks and SOFT drinks, BUT still wasting lot of food as I want…
            I will only invite my rich repayable friends for parties I host…
            I may/may-not care for the Children/OTHERS, I see suffering …
            I may/may-not contribute FROM money saved from NOT OVER spending! on festivals and occasions in my family, will borrow (credit card) spend money to fill EGO’s of All,

            Before many millennium’s…
            God redeemed the Israelites (our representatives) and fed them for 40 long years but…we created god(calf) from gold and started worshiping that…
            …wait even now we, the so called techno savvy people of 21st century are much more worse than them…
            …as we are very good at multi-tasking and are multi-skilled, we worship MANY Gods, simultaneously that too, it can be one or many of the listed, women/men, Ego, fame, materialist, loan EMI to name a few, from so many…! But not like our fore-parents who did not want to be SLAVE to ONLY ONE GOD!
            Classes were taken in our schools even on Sundays also, about SHARING! concept, from 3 loaves and 2 fish, thousands were fed…while there are only few thousands to be fed by trillions?

            For any death,(murder) there is cause,

            Who on earth? is interested in finding the root cause and eliminating THE CAUSE, for not occur again?

            Everyone likes to cut the leaves, rather than remove the problem by its Root!!

            ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM, NOT BY DRESSING THE WOUND! So that THE next generation can live in PEACE!

      • Anonymous says:

        Do you think that is nice to say for her not to have anymore children

      • laloni1975 says:

        You say ” you & your make believe god” So…. If indeed there is no god & I die tomarrow and ashes to ashes dust to dust no big deal right? So then let us say the opposite & I die tomarrow & go to hell for eternity forever right? Well what harm has been done to me by believing in God then. If there is no God no big deal right? You said he is make believe right? The alternative sure is grim though in the event you are wrong! If I am wrong then what? Then I am just wrong, right? So why all the anger? Why the constant need to impose your believe that there is no God? Why is it so utterly important that you must at all costs prove he is not real? Do you get a prize when you die for knowing that there is no god? If indeed there is no god then you should just be comfortable in knowing that. Instead you just all your time hating and going on and on about how there is no god! Something tells me there has got to be reason that you have to find it so important to make sure others don’t believe!? What harm has it caused you for others to believe in a fictional made up god? Or is it that maybe the fear of satan revealing himself is the real problem?

        • Anonymous says:

          Hello there Laloni,

          First I’d like to ask you to read my post with my tough questions and see if you can even answer one of them! If not, then you have to admit, in your heart, that you truly don’t believe in god. I mean, how can you believe in a god that you don’t know if it exists? But that’s besides my point…

          I wanted to address your question about “What if I’m wrong, so what?” You were basically asking, if you do believe in god, and you are wrong, what bad can come from that? Well I can tell you some bad things that can come out of it. First off let me also state that I’ve heard many other Christians use that same “Excuse” like you guys have some free pass to believe in an evil god or something.

          Let’s assume this god IS REAL, but he is in-fact EVIL…or maybe this god you put your “Faith” in could actually be Satan himself! And maybe there is
          NO GOOD GOD to save you from that!and now you are giving your life and soul to him! You are accepting him into your “Heart” and you are now doomed to truly go to hell if you believe in all this. So, yes I have said this before (And No, Satan is not pushing me to say this…it is in-fact the exact opposite….every time I try to expose chistianty I GET ATTACKED spiritually….I do believe in a higher power, no doubt…but it works right through us) But yes it CAN BE DANGEROUS to believe in God! I am referring to the Christian god that is pushed and marketed by the powers that be. I mean, if the devil runs this world, as you all christians think….then why is there a bible in every hotel room and on every channel on TV you see and hear about Jesus? It’s because the people who control everything and the people who have all the money and the people who worship the devil, actually CREATED the religion themselves. There is evil out there, no doubt. And it shows its ugly head everyday. If satan was real, he certainly is not hiding from anyone, nor is he trying to make people think he doesn’t exist. That is just silly. If Satan is gods enemy and his greatest wish is for us to NOT know he’s real, then GOD would come to our AID and PROVE to us that he is real, so that we would not be a victim to Satan. It’s obvious that God and Satan are one and the same! It even says it right in the bible if you read it closely. (Also Jesus=666 . Take each letter of his name and X by 9. Add the result up, its no coincidence that it equals 666) The excuse “Those who dont want the truth shal be deceived” is major BS because I WANT THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH! There are indeed negative entities out there, but obviously there is nobody named Satan. That is just another made up name by some stupid negative entity. God wouldnt of been stupid enough to create a douche like satan. Not unless Satan was here for ultimately a “good” purpose. And I can’t see how he’s “Good” for us, when all he does is supposedely try to seperate people from god. And also dont give me the free will excuse either because I’ve already proved that WRONG by stating the obvious- If god gave us truly free will, he would of asked us first, if we would like to be born or not before he so selfishly created us to our realities. The free will thing is a LIE…trust me. You don’t have any free will. You SHOULD have it, but there are negative entities out there which have taken that away from us, so now we cant even decide what kind of clothes we want to wear or not! Those are also picked out for us!

          So this is something that hopefully you will think seriously about. What has a better chance of being true? The bible? or the fact that God might actually be “evil” or “Satan” in disguise? And believing in the lie COULD send you to hell, since you gave all your power away to this lie. Also they want you to feel guilty for things that you havent done, or things that were never your fault. They want you to give them your power with your suffering. Now THAT IS THE TRUTH….So make sure not to BLINDLY believe ANYTHING without knowing what it is first! That is like asking your kids to get in the car with every stranger that asks them if they want a ride! This supposedly super powerful god of yours wouldnt be so foolish as to expect us to believe and trust something we dont know about, would he? Maybe Christians should take after god, and tell their kids to accept rides from strangers….I mean if the stranger threatens them with hell if they don’t accept the “Ride” ….It couldnt hurt right? I mean, if the kids are wrong and they accept the ride from the stranger, no big deal right? Why risk hell when you could just hope in and get raped and killed instead.

          I hope Ive made my points clear. I just feel like i am talking to a brick wall sometimes when I talk to people who are scared to think for themselves.

          • laloni1975 says:

            Okay so what you are saying is evil or not evil god exists right?

            Sent from my iPad


            • Anonymous says:

              Yes I do believe in God. Obviously we didn’t come out of nowhere. We are part of the divine, eternal force. That to me, is God. The creator of everything. We have just been lied to about a lot of stuff in the bible….to confuse us and keep us from god. That is the reason for all of our silly questions. God doesnt hate you, god would never send you to hell. Even if you dont believe in Jesus, you will not go to hell. Keep looking for the truth from within..and then you’ll know what god really is.

    • kiranirvanna says:

      I understand the loss of a child. There is nothing as horrible. I cannot imagine comparing the pain your daughter went through to the mere day or two of suffering which lasted at most three or four days Jesus “suffered” through. What Good God requires the suffering of children for salvation? I cannot imagine being okay with that. I would rather suffer for eternity myself than to allow my child to suffer like that for my sake. I would rather suffer for eternity myself than to allow any other person to suffer, but to allow my own sweet daughter to go through something so horrible. I could never accept that myself.

    • John c says:

      I find it easier to accept that a child died because of a random genetic mutation caused by an environmental cause, than to believe that a being, who could supposedly saved that child, and is merciful and good, caused it in the first place then sat back and evily allowed that child to suffer and die.Such would be akin to a child building an ant farm just so he could focus his burning glass on it.As to heaven, what does it promise? an eternity of the same, such would become a boring hell to any one within a few years, the anhialation of conciousness at death is far more acceptable than an eternity of banality.To the idea of hell, i say such would not be the actions of a loving , forgiving god, the concept alone contradicts the idea.Get real, acept death happens, it has to or the world would overflow, accept chance plays a role, accept you have one life, and to enjoy it without concience or guilt, but also without harming or disadvantaging others,its all you need.Fear drives people to religion, it offers false hope of averting the inevitable, and destroys the quality of the one life you have.

    • Anonymous says:

      Your logic is sick, flawed and twisted. The idea that a child has to suffer in pain to save us sinful adults is well…incomprehensible.

  4. Antonio says:

    I was still in the womb when my troubles began. I was born out of wedlock and born with a spinal deformity may be because my mother did not have enough nourishment to sustain me while I was inside her womb. When I came out, I was very sickly. Rarely in the week that did I not have to be rushed to the hospital because I would have fever, whooping cough, etc. I grew up with all sorts of illnesses, from colds to rheumatic heart disease. I was barely two years old when I got bitten by a dog and had to be subjected to painful anti-rabies injection (you know how many there were 63 years or so ago. And, to top it all, I grew up with effeminate tendencies which made me the butt of insults from other kids and adults. I was left in the care of my grandmother while my mother had to work far away. She eventually got married and gave me ten siblings. When I became an adult, I helped provide for the family and remained single. Presently, my grown up siblings do not give a heck if I still have anything to eat. They say if you sow good seeds you will reap plentiful harvest. But I don’t. Now, tell me, is God good?

    • Hi Antonio,

      Sorry you had to go through all that, but thanks for sharing. Life can be pretty grueling sometimes. But on the bright side… you didn’t die of rabies (thank science!). I don’t know what kind of intelligent designer would dream up (or allow) such a crazy virus as that.

      I wish I could’ve brought my kids into a more perfect world, but it is what it is — all we can do is try to make it a better place and focus on the positive. Although… I did just write post #30 recently, “Should we all stop having children?” and what David Benatar said still has me thinking… maybe we would be better off not bringing any new life into existence. Still pondering that one.

      Anyway, thanks for reading. I do read all your comments, even if I don’t reply to them all. :-)

    • Tina Mac says:

      YES! you made it, and Perservered ! (definition is; to persist steadily in an action or belief, usually over a long period of time and especially despite problems or difficulties; to overcome; steadfast; strong) that sounds like you. You are a strong person. There is a God. The best is yet to come. You are an inspiration to go thru all of that and still help provide for your family in spite of everything.

    • John c says:

      Deepest sympathy, i hope you have found some pleasure in life some somewhere,Dont ever rely on god, and dont ever let the religious tell you something is immoral if it harms no one.

    • Allen says:

      I understand you you completely Antonio, though my suffering wasn’t as intense as yours, it was something similar.

    • I’m sorry you’ve been through so much strife in your life. Hugs* I want you to know that you are a beautiful person and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

  5. Anonymous says:

    None of this helsp me to unserstand why children must suffer the same pain. Young children do not sin intentionally. They are not even aware of what sin is. How could a God that claims to love out children stand to watch them suffer so. A 12 yr old little girl is laying in bed with tubes and enough morphine going threw her system to make 3 adults not feel pain and I am suppose to believe this is Gods will? I am angry, I have prayed that God please take the pain from this child and give it to me. I have held my 3 new born children and 2 newborn grand children. I can die today and be able to say I have seen enough to have lived a fullfilled life. The little girl deserves to experience her 1st kiss, to fall in love for the 1st time, to hold her 1st new born child. She DOES NOT deserve to suffer at such great levels. She is not evil. I have sinned intentionally, I know I have done things that God weaped over.

    • Hi Anonymous,

      Sorry to hear about your pain. As a father myself, I know how I hate to see my little ones suffer. I think it’s times like these that we try make sense of suffering. But the truth probably is (as far as I can tell) that there is no good god behind it. And as uncomforting as that thought might be, it makes the most sense, and spares us from having to rationalize why good god would allow such awful things to happen.

      Matthew 7:11 says…

      “If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!”

      If we love our children LESS than God, and we wouldn’t cause them pain, how much more should God want to protect them? And anyone insisting that children most suffer so that the rest of us can maintain our free will is just spouting retarded nonsense.

      But is there no comfort for the unbeliever? Sure there is. If my child (or grandchild) died at 12, I would take comfort in the fact that we got to enjoy each other for 12 years instead of 2, and that they wouldn’t have to endure any other hardships in adult life. And given the choice, they’d probably still choose to live even if only to age 12, just to have the opportunity to take a brief look around. Ultimately, I’d also accept that they would want me to enjoy the rest of my life as best I can, rather than spend it in abject sorrow.

      But the hard truth is that life sometimes sucks balls and is completely unfair and unjust. And when we have kids, we roll the dice and hope that their life will turn out okay. But we know for a certain percentage of children, life will be hard, and we must accept those risks… or forego having children.

      But I think most people in your situation would pray, not because they believe in god, but because it’s all that’s left to do. I hope everything turns out okay.

    • rickray1 says:

      You have NOT sinned. Your religion and imaginary god are the ones who have done the sinning. Time to trust Science and reality and jump off the band-wagon of religion.

      • Anonymous says:

        Rickray1, science is the one who is killing us…look at what they do with people with cancer, inject them with things there body can not even stand. It’s all evil and evils money that kill people not God…get a real grip on life

        • how can you say science is the one that is killing us… science is nothing until we use it. It can be good or bad. Atomic bomb/polio vaccination. We as humans must strive for peace. I believe that if we blame some supernatural entity for bad or good things in the world then we limit ourselves in what we can achieve.

      • Anonymous says:

        trust science? the same science that has treatments and side effects that are worse than the disease itself? the same science that says something is good for us then 5 years later says oops we were wrong?

        • anna says:

          I’ll trust the science that saved my daughter’s life over an imaginary god that kills torments his own children any day. I’ve never seen a single credible case of someone being cured just by praying. In almost every claim of healing through prayer the patient is also receiving medical treatment along with the prayers. In the few cases I’ve seen where people claim they were cured by prayer without any medical intervention, there’s no medical proof of illness. You can’t pray cancer away. I’ve known people that honestly believe that prayer saved their loved one because they seemed to be getting worse or not responding to medical treatment and then they suddenly took a turn for the better. However, science has shown that the exact same thing would have happened even if no one was praying. The treatment for most serious illnesses will often make thing worse before they get better, prayer has nothing to do with it. If prayer alone worked, there wouldn’t be childhood cancer.

            • Mark P. says:

              Yes, prayer is worthless. My belief in that intensifies more each day. If God stands back and gives man,”free will” and He has,”a plan for everything”, what’s the point? In order for me to have faith, a little something has to make some sense. If there is a perfect God, I’m sure he will understand my confusion. If he’s not perfect, then he doesn’t exist. I mean, HE IS GOD, right? Keep hearing that, “There is evil everywhere”, well, obviously prayer isn’t going to help you, just ask the parents of the kids in Connecticut.

              • anna says:

                I wouldn’t go so far as to say prayer is completely worthless. If prayer helps a person find peace after tragedy or makes their life feel more complete, then prayer can have worth for those that believe. However, prayer alone will NEVER solve an external problem. I would never tell a person they are an idiot for praying while their loved one is undergoing treatment for an illness or injury. But I would if they were withholding medical treatment in favor of prayer alone.

                If believing that a loved one goes to an eternal paradise when they die helps a person deal with their death, then so be it. It’s not my personal belief, but it doesn’t effect my life one way or the other. What irks me is when people that know full well what my beliefs are (or lack there of) try to impart their beliefs on MY tragedies.

                • Mark P. says:

                  Sorry Anna, should have clarified. Yes, if believing in prayer helps one to get through anguish and gives comfort, by all means I’m all for it. ( Heck, if running through the streets and speaking in tongue eases your pain, I’m all for it!) Moreover, I even talk about here how I “envy” people that have deep faith and how they can somehow get through the worst of all tragedies, losing a child.I guess by saying “prayer is worthless”, I’m speaking about my personal belief that if there is a God, praying to him is a little dichotomous with all this, “free will” and “God’s plan”, thing. Futile.

              • Bonnie says:

                There is evil everywhere and it is getting worse everyday, but to say that God doesn’t answer prayers, or that He is Satan is wrong. Jesus our Savior loved us so much that He died for us on the cross, He took our punishment even though He was innocent. I don’t like the fact that because Eve and Adam disobeyed God that we are now all sinners because we are born because our parents had sex. Remember Jesus was born sin free because He wasn’t created by sex, but was planted into Mary’s uterus by God.

                When you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior and was baptized did you stop there or did you get anointed with oil and ask for the Holy Spirit, the Comforter to come and reside inside you? I did, and I can tell you there is a DIFFERENCE in just being baptized with water and being filled with the Holy Spirit. When my granddaughter was born, she was very sick, a full term baby, but she had heart problems. The doctor told me that she would be dead by Sunday there was nothing they could do for her. I prayed to my Heavenly Father, and He put peace in my heart and told me not to worry that she would be fine. I never questioned Him nor did I waver from believing Him, today she is 20 years old and has her own little girl.

                When my mom died in July of 1996, God used her voice to tell me that my dad had cancer and that I needed to get him to the doctor immediately. I believed in what He laid upon my heart again, and my dad was diagnosis with the fastest growing cancer there is, and his doctor told him if he had waited just a few more days to come in he would have died because the cancer would have taken over his body. Again I believed Him, and did not waver, because He had already told me that my dad would survive if I would just get him to the doctor immediately.

                God doesn’t want to see anyone go to hell nor does he want to see his children suffer, but we have to believe when we pray, we can’t half-heartedly pray it must be unwavering belief, and we must follow in Jesus’s footsteps when we accept Him as our Savior. Have I had problems in my life, sure I have but that was my fault not God’s, because sometimes I get impatient and try to work it out on my own and not wait for Him. But I can tell you without any doubt, that I know there is a God, I have felt Him, and I have the Comforter with me to guide me, sustain me and to kept me on the right track so that I may be Heaven bound to be with my grandparents, and other family members that have gone on before me.

            • Alfredo San Mar says:

              Hello, everyone! You are forgetting something; where did you put the faith??
              Are you ok, thinking and living without faith?
              How are you supossed to think God doesn’t care about us?, The evil is because of our freedom, it’s because of what we do and what we left from doing.
              1.- Weren’t you children?
              2.- Did you suffer when you were children?
              3.- Did your parents ask for some help when they suffered?
              4.- There are more children suffering because of we give them a bad treatment, we take them aside, we push them far away from us. Think about if your heatlhy kids are enough happy!!

              • anna says:

                Having faith in something and believing in a god are in no way dependent upon each other. I don’t believe in god, but I still have plenty of faith. It’s not a matter of thinking “god doesn’t care about me”. It’s like saying Santa doesn’t care about me, it’s meaningless to those that don’t believe. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that I don’t believe in god.

                I was raised devoutly catholic. As such, I was taught that 2 of the greatest gifts bestowed on mankind by god were free will and intelligence. What has always bothered my about religion is the fact that in order to truly “believe” a person has to completely ignore the gifts god has given them. If you use your intelligence and question god about anything, you’ve sinned and you’re going to hell. If you use your free will and decide not to worship god, you’ve sinned and you’re going to hell. That’s completely illogical. It’s like giving your child a really great toy for and then telling them they’re not allowed to play with it. I don’t understand how sane, intelligent people can believe that a god like that deserves to be worshiped.

        • Ignorance_Is_Bliss says:

          Science is the reason you are here on the internet typing the response to this URL in the first place.

          • laloni1975 says:

            No big deal then … Why does it bother you! No god right? Cool! Move on then…. No you can’t though can you! Why would you want to go to hell by yourself? The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to prove he did not exist… Huh? Otherwise you wouldn’t care you would go about your scientific way and just think how stupid all of us believers are! There seems to be this great great urgency on your part to prove he is not real and now and to as many people as you can huh? Why is that necessary ?

        • if you didn’t trust science you wouldn’t be making that statement on here at all. “Science” is what enabled you to express your thoughts and views via the internet. Science is what you use to travel, eat the processed foods, flick that light switch, and basically every necessity you have at your disposal. Religion helps you feel happy when your sad…… so does friends, family, community, masturbation, food, stand-up comedy, and a change of perspective.

      • Trust science!? The same science that invented penicillin and saved hundreds of millions of lives!? The SAME science that eradicated polio and saved millions of diabetics with the invention of insulin!? The SAME science that has DOUBLED our lifespan in 100 years, and cut childhood mortality rates IN HALF in just the past 20? Oh… ya, that science.

        Science isn’t perfect, nor does it claim to be. Science is the search for truth, whatever that truth may be. When it is wrong, it HAS to be willing to say “Oops,” or it will not continue to progress. This is more than I can say for many religious ideas, which are disproved but continue to be practiced. (Such as prayer, which has been proven ineffective in large double-blind studies, yet is STILL being prescribed by pastors and priests. When will they say “Oops?”)

    • Rich says:

      Heaven is full of perfect graces,this world isnot perfect but the people who suffer here go stright to heaven. For the people who don’t suffer here or sinned lot must wait to go to heven. In one way or anothe we all must suffer like Christ did.Believe it or not…. It may be much better for a young person to suffer alot and go straight to heaven, than commit a life filled with sins and suffer more before heaven and maybe not make it there at all would be worse than any suffering,how bad it may seeem. It is the only way some of us learn true humility and have a chance at heaven. You never know what that person was going to do when they got older. It would be horrible to see someone like Hitler grow up or worse… Also it is a great example of children who are stronger than adults. sometime I wish the Lord took me t a young age. I screwed up really bad but suffered to with illness. I will have alot to answer too for not bringing my kids up to know him. I didn’t want to push my ideals and hope the lord presents himself to my kids in time when they are ready for him. I always got an in Religion class but didn’t relly get it until I had very hard times. Suffering is the only way. Children who suffer save alot of souls!!! they are saints with greatests ewards we can’t imagine with our limited minds…..

      • “For the people who don’t suffer here or sinned lot must wait to go to heven… we all must suffer like Christ did.”

        Is this just speculation or do you have scripture that backs this up? Had Adam not screwed up, apparently we all would’ve gotten into heaven without having to suffer.

        “It may be much better for a young person to suffer alot and go straight to heaven, than commit a life filled with sins and suffer more before heaven and maybe not make it there at all…”

        So we’d better torture and kill children to make sure they get into heaven. Is this why Catholic priests molest young boys? For their own good?

        “Suffering is the only way.”

        Unless you’re Adam… then there’s the other way.

    • Anonymous says:

      As a young girl of 14 I always sought God in everything and I went to church out of my own free Will as my mom didn’t go to church at the time but she always believed in God and taught me to believe in God. I was molested when I was a little girl and as a result I was petrified of boys so didn’t date at all in school. I then met a man who I married and had my son with. This man was verbally and physically abusive to me and he started drinking heavily and couldn’t hold down a job. I continued going to church, I sought counselling for him and I but eventually things got so bad I left him and have been raising my son on own since he was 3 years old. He is now 16 and he tried to commit suicide 3 times last year and he verbally abuses me and is rude and disrespectful and blames me for choosing his father as his father. He doesn’t believe in God and hates that I go to church and believe. Whats more I am in huge financial crisis because my ex husband doesn’t pay maintenance despite numerous attempts by me to get him to pay and last year my son was diagnosed with manic depression / borderline bipolar disorder. Its an ongoing struggle. I keep praying, my mother is a believer but she too was abused as a child and her life has fallen apart to the extent that she lost practically everything. I ended up in yet another abusive relationship and then got out. I hear what the believers are saying but I fully understand why my son won’t believe and why the people who question God’s existence and his intentions feel the way they do because I feel that way a lot lately. I keep reading my bible and going to church hoping to find the answers. The bible was rewritten many times and by man. Priests rape little boys and are supposed to be good, Godly men whom people trust. The world is screwed up and people have free will. They are responsible for their own actions but I don’t believe that anyone chooses pain and suffering and abuse! God is supposed to be Almighty and All Powerful, so why then does God allow innocent, helpless little children to be raped and abused? No one has the answers and no one ever will, so believe what you want and what ever brings you peace because clearly God isn’t going to save you, if its not his plan. Some people die in their sleep and live happily without ever have believed in God and are wealthy and susccesful. I have met poeple like this and then there are those who believie in God and others have a lifetime of suffering for believing in him and vice versa. Man seeks God and seeks to believe in something or someone because its a need. Look at the buddhist monks…their lives are peaceful as they are not materialistic and they live a peaceful life. Yet one can ask if whether they eventually chose that life because they couldn’t bear to exist in the real world anymore given all the stresses and demands of jobs, relationships, etc. Few people have found true happiness and perhaps it comes down to the fact that we (mankind) have created a world that revolves around corruption, greed and violence caused by free will and now we have to protect ourselves from ourselves but there are those of us who call on the Lord to help us, to protect us and stop the suffering and pain and to keep our children safe. Perhaps if we believe enough, if our faith is so strong and we don’t doubt for one minute that God exists and we truly believe then thats what God wants from us in order to help us but if we doubt then God will not help us. What this says and what we read in the bible is that God doesn’t tolerate anyone who doesn’t live according to HIS Will. That means we have to fear God and that God is very harsh. Its scary to think that is the God I worship.

      • If we stop and allow ourselves to wonder, “What would this world look like if there were no God?” I think what we see is what we might expect to see. No one is stopping innocent children from being raped and abused, no one stops them from being infected and killed by a whole host of complex diseases, and no one stops them from starving to death. I’m not saying there absolutely is no God, just that the evidence of this world certainly suggests that if He does exist, He does not care to put an end to things that even ungodly men find morally reprehensible.

        I’m sorry to hear about your son, I had a tough time at that age, too. In fact, those were some of the toughest years I’ve ever had to endure. I think this was due in part to my Christian upbringing, which suggested life would be wonderful as long as you had God… but it often wasn’t. It would’ve almost been easier if someone had told me, “Look, life can really suck, and often will, but here’s how you deal with it…” There may be good tips on how to do this, but I’m no expert, I struggle like everyone else. But personally, I try to recognize those times when I feel happy, grateful and/or satisfied. I make a list of what happened to make me feel this way, and try to do them more often.

        We can try calling out to God for protection, but events like the Black Plague suggest to us that God really isn’t in the business of protection. I have no doubt that there’s some peace and comfort that can come from believing that God loves you and is watching out for you and your family, even if it’s entirely untrue. But if it IS untrue, I’d rather face the cold, clear reality of the situation than tie my brain in knots trying to explain and defend the torture of innocence.

        On your final thought, I think we humans often fall into this trap of self-blame, just like the ancient Jews did. Every time some unpleasant (but entirely explainable) event happened to them, they’d blame themselves instead of assuming God was evil or non-existent. For example, when the Babylonian’s overtook them and exiled them as slaves, the Jews didn’t say it was because the Babylonian gods were stronger, or because God was indifferent or non-existent; they said: “This must be God’s way of telling us we’re still not good enough!” Even today, when we don’t get healed or God doesn’t fix our problems, we blame ourselves for not having enough faith. But we can’t PROVE this is the reason these things happen, any more than we can prove Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn’t happy with us. I think we probably just use these excuses because we can’t bare to deal with the unthinkable: God doesn’t actually exist, and we’re on our own.

        • laloni1975 says:

          And I ask again so what!? No god and we are on our own! Big deal! There you are though blaming god for being evil and doing and letting the same god that don’t exist? Right?

    • Anonymous says:

      I to had to come to the conclusion that there is no meaning in suffering because the world we live is but an assemblage of atoms. Atoms simply don’t care. They come together to build matter – you, me, and the universe. That does not mean we should not care about each other. On the contrary, we should display an unyielding sense of compassion toward each other. The suffering of children is a contradiction that is very hard to overcome. I have yet to have heard an intelligent explanation by religious apologists.

    • Monica Sprague says:

      I had a minister once who continually argued with me about the topic of original sin. He defines sin as selfishness. He continues by stating that newborns are the epitome of selfishness demanding to have their needs met by crying and fussing. Therefore he determines that newborns are born sinful hence original sin. I don’t buy that and believe in the innate goodness of man that is corrupted by environment and genetic predispositions.

  6. claude says:

    My 15 year old son had cancer, and experienced the most horrible suffering I can imagine. Once doctors pre-determained he was terminal, getting access to treatment became a war zone.

    I don’t know why children get cancer. But I think I know the “why” for the rest of us. Jesus Christ walked on earth, healing and curing everyone he saw. And we are expected to do the same. The “why” for us is to cure it, fight it, and support those going through it.

    I believe the answer to all the suffering is within our grasp. We can fund research, we can bring comfort, we can provide compassion, we can battle the medical system. All of us can do something.

    Cancer and other suffering is a fact of this world. It’s just the way it is. I believe God provides the resources, and expects us act with those resources. And innocent people pay the price when we do not. As a rabbi told me, God is nowhere in the cancer. God exists in our response to cancer.

    My son lived. People say it was the wonderful grace of God. I believe that is true. But I will not forget the 57 funerals I attended while he battled for his life. I will not forget those children who died. To my last breath, I will do what I can, where ever I can, to end this. That is my “why”.

    • Hi Claude,

      So sorry to hear about your son, that’s really dreadful, but happy to hear that he’s a survivor.

      My hope is that one day we will finally defeat cancer, and future generations won’t have to know the sorrow that so many parents go through today.

      Thanks for commenting!

      • tanya says:

        im sure there is a cure for cancer but then we wouldnt need the doctors and nurses and hospitals and all the things that go with it then they would lose money..it’s all about money..my ten year old has autism, he cannot speak and cries because, well we dont even know why sometimes, im sure there is a cure for that too, but then my son wouldnt need a special school, a tss, a speech therapist, an occupational therapist, a case manager, etc…all the people that work with him get paid $20 an hour or more, why would they ever want to find a cure when they get paid so much????

        • Hi Tanya. I’d have to say that borders on a conspiracy theory. While there is a profit to be made, I also know there are a lot of dedicated and sincere scientists working on cures for cancer, many of whom have lost loved ones to it. And there are many others who work with cancer patients who would gladly give up their jobs in exchange for a cure (I’m sure they could find work battling the next big disease, until they’re all cured). Life can deal some pretty awful blows to children, but if it weren’t for nature making mistakes, we wouldn’t be here today. And thanks to the work of doctors and scientists, a lot of these children have survived these blows. Hopefully, our grandchildren will live in a world free of things like cancer and autism, but we need to support the research.

        • DanD says:

          The problem with that argument is that it assumes there is not also some entity that could make a profit by curing cancer. While it may not be in the best interest of the company presently producing the chemotherapy drugs, there is some other company out there (I’ve got a few dollars invested in one) that doesn’t currently profit from treating cancer, but will make huge profits if their new treatment approach works. They have no incentive to suppress a cure, and billions in possible profits if they find one. And their are hundreds of other small companies out there trying their own approaches.

          So either you are actually arguing against a profit motive, or you are arguing that somehow a conspiracy not only manages to shut down hundreds of independent companies, and all of the scientific papers the publish, but also the millions of investors in these companies who track their progress, and the thousands of people involved in their treatment in the clinical trials.

          And I have to agree with the author, and even go further, there is probably not an oncologist or oncology nurse (especially pediatric) on the planet who wouldn’t gladly become a GP if it meant no one ever died of cancer again. The people in those roles fit my definition of saint a lot better than most religious ones. The experience more human suffering than just about anyone else on the planet.

    • Cheryl says:

      Hi Claude,
      You are amazing. I can not begin to know or understand your pain or horrible suffering you have seen throughout your sons illness but you have renewed my faith in God. You have finally helped me understand. I feel a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders and that is thanks to you. I do not have a child suffering as you did but I am suffering, not medically but in life. I have endured some horrible heartache and I have struggled daily to find reason to even live. Everyday I have to spoken to God, I have asked why can I not have true happiness, why must things always be so difficult and why am I even here. I have asked him for forgiveness for my sins, I have asked him to show me what to do and I have listened, but in the last 2 years nothing about God and his word was making sense. You Claude with the help of God have given me the strength to go on. I am a mother of 5 adorable children whom I love with such intensity. I have completely dedicated my life to my children and I never could understand why innocent children suffered and died with God’s knowledge. I sometimes used to say to myself God took the babies because he needed them more than us for his work in heaven. But that still didn’t explain why they had to suffer before they got there. The question of children suffering and God not helping has echoed in my brain for so many years and now that God has spoken through you I understand. It never made sense to me, no matter how often I read the bible, listened in church, spoke to elders and listened to God myself when I asked him I never heard an answer that truely made sense, until now. Your understanding of God’s will and his word rings so true in my mind. God doesn’t and never did cause children to suffer or die. God is asking us to live like Christian’s who love one another, share, communicate and who work together to stop these deaths. He has given us the intelligence, money, time and resources to find cures for cancer, sids and so much more. People are not united, they are not working hard enough to achieve these goals. If we were all advocates for these children who can not speak for themselves and we all worked together with our time and money we would be able to stop innocent children dying and god would see his words being put into practice as it was meant to be. What an incredible world it would be. Thank you Claude for renewing my faith.

      • Hi Cheryl and Claude,

        I certainly don’t want to be the one to destroy anyone’s hope, and I believe there ARE many reasons to be hopeful. But I don’t believe Claude’s answer equates to Biblical truth. Claude says….

        “Jesus Christ walked on earth, healing and curing everyone he saw. And we are expected to do the same…. we can fund research, we can bring comfort, we can provide compassion, we can battle the medical system.”

        But the Bible makes it clear that it’s not our job to heal our diseases, but God’s…

        I, the Lord, am your healer. (Exodus 15:26)
        The LORD will remove from you all sickness. (Deuteronomy 7:14)
        He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases. (Matt. 8:17)

        And the cure for those diseases, according to the Bible, comes through the laying on of hands, prayer, and casting out demons:

        “In my name they will drive out demons… they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” (Mark 16:17-18)

        God never suggests going in search of natural cures, but tells us to put our trust in Him. However, after thousands of years, we’ve learned that sickness isn’t caused by demons, it’s caused by things like bacteria, viruses, and genetic defects. And we’ve also learned these things don’t respond to prayer, the laying on of hands, or the casting out of demons. We found new and more effective ways to treat these problems, but not through any of the methods Jesus recommended. And now that we’ve finally discovered these methods, it does kinda irk me a bit to hear people say “It was GOD who gave us these cures!” God did not give us these, He gave us prayer, which didn’t work, so we had to go in search of something else!

        There were times in history, such as during the Black Death, when the only hope for families was to pray to God for help, yet literally hundreds of millions still died. All they could do was cry out to God and attempt to follow his instructions for curing disease, and He responded as one who does not exist — while children and spouses died by the millions.

        Why wasn’t God answering? What message was He sending? Why did they need to die? Was He cursing them for not devoting enough money, time and resources to the problem? Was He cursing them for not praying enough? Surely these men were far more religious than we are today, yet they suffered far more, not because of their lack of faith, but because of their lack of science!

        As I said, do believe there are many reasons to be hopeful for the future. I’d like to believe the world is gradually becoming a better place, there are fewer wars, people are living longer, the childhood mortality rate is declining, and we have wonderful tools like the Internet to help us learn and communicate.

        But I think there will always be things like child molesters, child abusers, child murderers, and religious zealots who blow up buildings in the name of God. There may be no fix for these, but we certainly can (and will) continue to cure all the things that cause children to suffer. If we can’t rely on God to cure our plagues, it’s up to us to stop them.

        • rickray1 says:

          To any one who still believes in faith healing, you really need to google (faith healing deaths). The latest is the parents from Oregon who were arrested for trusting in laying of the hands on their 16 yr old son who had a burst appendix. Guess what happened! This continues. Why? Are people really that gullible and stupid? I guess so.

          • I saw that story today! Very interesting. I don’t know that they we’re gullible or stupid — I sometimes think we’re all a bit like computers, just following the programming and information our meaty processor-brains have been given. Had you and I grown up in their shoes, who knows, maybe we’d do the same thing. Probably not… but who knows! :-)

        • Cheryl says:

          Okay I really have a problem now understanding all of this after reading your reply. You have completely contradicted yourself. At the start you state “it is not our job to heal our diseases”. At the end you say the complete opposite “If we can’t rely on God to cure our plagues, IT’S UP TO US TO STOP THEM.” Please explain?????????

          • Hi Cheryl,

            Sorry for your confusion, I’ll try one more time…

            According to the Bible, we should fight disease through 1) the laying on of hands, 2) prayer, and/or 3) casting out demons. These are the Bible’s explicit instructions on what to do when someone gets sick. The Bible says NOTHING about going in search of methodological research methods, it says cures will come from God using the aforementioned methods. According to the Bible, our job is ONLY to perform these actions, and then God will take care of the disease.

            But as millions of grieving parents can attest, these methods rarely (if ever) work. If they did, the evidence would show up in clinical studies, your health insurance would pay for a priest instead of a surgeon, and any research into better alternatives would be forever unyielding. But because the Bible’s advice failed, mankind was forced to search for cures that actually work.

            As rickray1 points out, there are still some people who are faithful to the old ways, and their dead children are a grisly reminder of why we stopped taking the Bible’s medical advice too seriously.

            Still, when science finds a new cure, some believers will insist on saying (after billions of dollars in research) that “God has given us a cure!” No He didn’t, God gave us a different solution, and it didn’t cure anything, so now it’s up to us to stop disease.

            tl;dr: God gave us a method for curing disease, it didn’t work, we had no choice but to find alternate methods.

            • Becky says:

              Everything good comes from God. Methods and medicines come from people inspired by God. Some people think that praying MUST result in a miraculous answer or healing that requires nothing on our part in order to be an “answer”. Through prayer, I have been led to things that have helped or healed me or my family in the past. God sees all things from beginning to end and the answer to a prayer uttered today, could have been formulated years ago and brought to fruition with the utterance of a plea for help at this very point in time. And sometimes the answer to a prayer, is not what we think it should be.

              God also tells us that “all things work together for the good of those that love Him”. Tragedies are terrible, but oftentimes those are the times when God’s love is manifest more fully, and other lives are blessed. We do not see God’s big plan. His is an intricate weaving, of which we can only see one tiny thread. A recent tragedy, and death of a child in our area, has gotten me thinking a lot about this subject this week. A little girl lost her life the day before her “Make a Wish Trip” to Disney World. She should have lived. She deserved to live. Reading her mother’s grief-stricken words on her blog have pulled my heart strings and caused me to shed many tears . . . and I do not even know the family personally. However, I know, because of this little girl’s life, my life has forever been changed. It has caused me to look around me and count my blessings . . . to not take my life or my loved ones for granted. It has given me a change of heart, that I so desperately have needed at this time in my life. I know her story has touched so many more lives,
              besides mine. Time will only tell, how many lives this family’s tragedy has affected and changed for the better. If you believe this life is the end, and that there is nothing after this, then tragedies can seem senseless . . . but if you trust that there is a purpose to our life here on this earth, that transcends anything our mortal and finite minds can understand, then it all makes more sense. Can one person’s heartache and struggle bring more souls to God? I know for sure, that is so. I believe we are here to learn and grow and love and help each other and that God has a purpose that will ultimately dim and erase our recollections of the pains that we, and our loved ones, have suffered in this life. We will compensated one hundred, even one thousand fold, because of the love of our willing Savior . . . who suffered more than any one of us can comprehend, in order to save us from permanent suffering.

              • Tina Mac says:

                Amen, that was beautiful! You certainly helped me. Please do not listen to the negaive post regarding this. What you said was inspirational to me. Thanks for that

      • That’s not to say that God couldn’t have intended for us to find our own way to cure to diseases… but if that was His intent, it sure would’ve been nice if Jesus said something like: “Look, in a few years prayer is going to be relatively worthless for ending disease, and you’ll need to discover your own cures. God has given you all the resources you’ll need to do this, but it’ll take time. In the meantime, be aware that any insect that can suck your blood can also carry disease. Also, wash your hands frequently, especially before eating or touching your eyes, nose or mouth. And if you’re sick, cover your mouth when you cough, and you may want to stay away from others until you’re feeling better… just in case.”

        • Anonymous says:

          Wouldn’t it have been nice for the god of the bible to relay his knowledge of germ theory to his children? It might have helped convince more people to believe, AND resulted in having more believers on account of them actually still being ALIVE :)

    • Anonymous says:

      I am so glad Im not walking around in a fog thinking god is great and Im going to heaven when i die. The person that said I have alot of anger toward him , your right I do. And let me ask you, do you ever look at child abuse ? go look at baby Brianna on the atopsey table ., look at all the welts and bruises on her head and look at her broken fingers and bite marks alll over her body and burn marks on her, she lived that way for 3 years go look at her and all the other ones and tell me “oh, god is great, he loves us, theres a reason for this.” if you can look at those photos and try and imagine what those poor little innocent children went through and still think our god is so loving, then your either just an idiot or your just mimicking what youve been taught and dont have the good sense to think for yourself.

  7. Julie says:

    The most disturbing pain in our heart is the pains of seeing the vulnerable and innocent suffer. Little children, the elderly & our little animals. This is the most greatness pain for injustice.
    Even the first moments Jesus became part of this world King Herod killed all the baby boys in the entire township so Jesus couldn’t be king – can you image the suffering the cries of all mother everywhere – just as our savior started out his life this was the evil that was allowed… This injustice can be easily explained for God to love us would mean he needs to give us free-will. Free-will in its very nature has to allow for risk the risk that people may make wrong decisions, Herod loved his job, God could of taken him out, but then Herod would not of had a chance to put his rights wrong. For God to interfere would mean he would have to interfere on everyone’s sin therefore destroying the freedom we have.
    Anyway…. on with the children suffering under Gods command question…
    Jesus was ”God on earth” he loved to relief the suffering on earth, he loved the little children so much so he statement that we must become like them if we are to enter Jesus New kingdom, He was angry at religious people how they burden people with their own rules and thoughts of themselves as more special then the next man. Jesus was a man after my own heart in fact all of our hearts if we truly look. Jesus only got killed because the religious people hired a mob at 3am before the whole town woke up. The majority of people back then and I believe today truly did and would have loved Jesus and what he stood for.
    Anyway…. on with the children suffering under Gods command question…
    Jesus if he was walking among us would of healed a child of cancer if he was asked. Ohhh Good News Jesus can still be asked… (you know this) But have you considered the cost of that pray.
    So you have a great compassion for children. Why? A baby boy is celebrated by being born? Why? The child hasn’t proven anything to anyone how do you know if that child will become a good person, what if they become bad person; greedy like King Herod.
    Is it not easier to celebrate the death of a well lived person whose life was represented by love & faithfulness, As the old man health fades it takes all his strength just to move his chair closer to the window where sunshine warms him, a well lived life that was bountiful, full of love, activities, learning, pray and good will. His life a delightful give to God as he has come to the full knowledge of all his life striving which is to rest in the relies of God alone. NOW that is worth celebrating!
    There is only one thing and one thing only why you have this love to see children live happy and without suffering its your emotions justice “I want to hope” “I want to hope in this specific life”
    Do you truly think God after making you in his own image would not agree with your emotion justice! We should hope.
    Back to the question… why does God allow children to suffer, what is suffering? it physical pain that lasts for a certain time, makes children cry and worst of all they look to us for relief only then we realize how inadequate we are to make things right and better for them, for us.
    But your question is about the child’s physical suffering not the parents– After time they either get better and live whatever life they choose or died into the arms of their creator in whom they are grateful to relied on once more, for their life and relief.
    Did you know it is easy for God to heal the sick? Yes you did otherwise you would of not ask the question you are asking he can also deliver us from this uncertain world.
    My question to you is why treat people so unequal an old man can die of cancer this is sad but acceptable – A child dies too soon; and this is terrible “hope has died”
    The end result is that both (hoping the old man was right with God) are with God. Only we that are left have pain in the end.
    We all have to learn that perfect truth “rest in the relies of God alone.” It is learn at a very young age and at a very old age – we somehow lose it in the middle.
    Keep your hope secure in this
    The true sickness of man cost Jesus his life. God hates every type of sin because it harms His children hearts, teaching us to forgive and live God-fearing and people loving lives will be represented in his kingdom to come this is what our true hope is in. Not in our children but in our loving savior put nothing before him.
    Anyway suppose you know all that…. If you ever find a child that is suffering be sure to ask Jesus for a healing for that child – but DONOT ask amiss as many do… Healing is not for selfish means because you secretly have this emotion hope for this child out of your own ambitious but because you truly love that child enough that you too would actual lay down your life for that child even though you had no guarantee what that child would become, That’s true love and true hope in God alone.

    • Hi Julie, thanks for your post.

      “Even the first moments Jesus became part of this world King Herod killed all the baby boys in the entire township so Jesus couldn’t be king…”

      I know this isn’t your central point, but it should be noted that the historicity of the “Massacre of the Innocents” is hotly debated. No one else in history, including the other gospel writers, ever made mention of it. And the Jewish Historian Flavius Josephus wrote in great detail about the life and times of King Herod, and never mentions this (historically noteworthy) event. But I digress…

      This injustice can be easily explained for God to love us would mean he needs to give us free-will. Free-will in its very nature has to allow for risk the risk that people may make wrong decisions… For God to interfere would mean he would have to interfere on everyone’s sin therefore destroying the freedom we have.

      I don’t think it can be that easily explained away. I believe free-will can exist without us having to live in a world of pain, and therefore it is illogical, unnecessary and cruel. For example…

      Do you believe Adam had free will in the Garden of Eden? If “Yes,” then this proves it is possible for a man to live in a pain-free world while still having free will. (If “No,” then Adam was forced to sin, and we have a whole other problem.) If God is love, then there is no reason for us to be living in the pain-filled world we know today. We should all be living in the Garden of Eden! And if someone should choose to disobey God and eat from the tree of knowledge, then God could simply cause them to die, or disappear, or be exiled from the garden (being unable to reproduce). It makes no sense for all the innocent people (and animals) in the garden to suffer for another man’s sin, no more than it would make sense to throw every man in jail because one man committed a crime.

      Another problem is that giving one man the freedom to kill another negates the free-will of the victim, making free-will unfair. For example, if I kill you, I take away your free will. Free-will is unfair unless all people are given the exact same test, with the exact same brain, under the same circumstances, with no one else who can take away their free will.

      Finally, can we ever really have free will if God creates everything? He can make us biologically prone to good just as easily as he can make us prone to evil.

      Do you truly think God after making you in his own image would not agree with your emotion justice!

      Truly? No. After doing a lot of thinking about it, I can’t seem to find a single good reason to continue believing in God. But I’m still looking. :-)

      After time they either get better and live whatever life they choose or died into the arms of their creator in whom they are grateful to relied on once more, for their life and relief.

      So this makes it okay to punish the innocent? It’s a bit like saying it’s okay to beat your kids, because it makes them thankful for when they’re no longer being beaten.

      As mentioned above, if it was possible for Adam to live a pain-free life and still have free will, then there is no reason for any innocent person (or animal) to suffer. Ergo either the Christian God is evil, or doesn’t actually exist.

      “Did you know it is easy for God to heal the sick? Yes you did otherwise you would of not ask the question you are asking…”

      Actually, my point in asking is to suggest that the most likely explanation for our circumstance is that there is no such God.

      Sorry to be such a downer – but just seeking the truth. (If there was a god, I think that’s what he’d want us to do!)

    • Lyne says:

      You seem to have missed the point. What about the children that suffer for a long time, raped then brutally killed? For example a 6, 8, and 11 year old, all sisters in India who died this way? This is really what we should be finding answers about. That is what you call real suffering and they don’t deserve any of it. So why does God let this happen? Yes well he doesn’t because it’s the devil being this. The devil in people, and God has to allow it to happen. But what about the suffering part. Why couldn’t God have at least made it so that they don’t suffer the pain before they die if they are going to die anyway, and God knows this apparently and watched it happen?

      • Lyne says:

        If this all happened to your children, you would not be believing in God anymore, even if you are a true Christian. You just say what you want to say but you have not experience the true pain of this otherwise you all wouldn’t be writing what you have wrote so far. If a mother has prayed night and day and believed in the Lord etc and then have this happened to all her girls, you would asked the same questions why? And no matter what you write pertaining to the bible you have to look at it in the perspective of really putting yourself in those shoes ans asking is it even a persons fault if after what happened to her children that she no longer believes. Who would have the energy to after something like this happening to a Christian? And there are worse stories I can give you about a poor innocent 3 year old. His suffering lasted 4 long years until he died, but I don’t want to get into the story as it is very emotional for me and I don’t like to think about abusers.

    • Anonymous says:

      you answered nothing about children suffering . or animals ……..dont really know what all that blah blah blah was about. To me, God is sadistic, and he created animals just to let them be abused. They havent sinned at all. and either has children. He is no better then the devil. at least the devil dosnt go around telling us he loves us and then lets us be tortured, thats what god does.

  8. Ryan says:

    “The reason for the pain is so that we will pray for strength; the reason for our strength is so that we will not lose hope; the reason for our hope is AP that we can face the world; and the reason for the world is so that we will long for home.”

    We are the children of God, created to grow up and be like him. This world and all the pain in it is to teach us. It should hurt when a child suffers, but when that child passes from this world to his true home in Heaven, all the pain is gone, replaced by a joy so great, we would all endure such pain as that child, just to reach it.

    Allowing a child to suffer is truly senseless, unless at the end of that suffering, there is something greater. Just the same as dedicating your life to God is senseless, unless there is something more beautiful beyond this world.

    “13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” ~ Phil 3

    May God bless you with understanding, so that your heart will not be troubled, but that you will find comfort in His grace.

    • Howdy Ryan,

      Allow me to re-quote Matthew West’s actual lyrics…

      “Maybe the reason for the pain
      Is so we would pray for strength
      And maybe the reason for the strength
      Is so that we would not lose hope
      And maybe the reason for all hope
      Is so that we could face the world
      And the reason for the world
      Is to make us long for home”

      Even Matthew West seems a bit uncertain over why pain and suffering exist.

      Matthew suggests that pain is necessary in order for us to desire a world without it, but this logic fails for a couple reasons…

      1) God is said to have originally created the world without pain (i.e. the Garden of Eden). God effectively says “Pain is not necessary for me to accomplish my goal.” Without pain, what was it that Adam would’ve looked forward to? Hypothetically speaking, if Adam had never sinned, he still would’ve been able to fulfill God’s purpose without knowing pain or suffering. If there is a reason for pain and suffering, the reason was lost on Adam.

      2) Saying that God began inflicting pain on us (after the fall) so we could better appreciate the lack of it is a sadistic philosophy. Should we also begin torturing our children so they can appreciate the days we do not torture them? Of course not! The ends simply do not justify the means.

      “Allowing a child to suffer is truly senseless, unless at the end of that suffering, there is something greater.”

      I disagree, I would say that allowing a child to suffer is senseless, period. Would you allow me to torture your baby if I rewarded him afterwards? Likewise, is it okay for a man to rape a young woman, so long as he rewards her afterwards? No, of course not, no reward can change the fact that the purposeful infliction of pain is wrong, regardless of the reward.

      May reason bless you with understanding.

    • Anonymous says:

      Ryan, you dont know that for sure to be telling people what we are to exspect when we die and that we would suffer just to have it, that is what you have been taught, that is what has been etched in your brain. You dont know anymore than I do what happens when we die.

      • Stella says:

        For sure, Do we have to suffer in order to gain rewards. Does pain have to be inflicted on a person to be rewarded. Do we parents have to antagonise and see our children going through pain just because we or our children are to be rewarded? Nonesense.
        I agree with what Ryan has stated.

        • Esther says:

          Depends on how you define pain. All kind of work is painful, it drains our emotional and physical energy. But we still work for a reward. Working ourselves out of tragedy is just one kind of “painful” work, but that doesn’t mean it is somehow more unfair than the other kinds of work we perform to earn our rewards.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Why does God allow suffering? Firstly God put human beings in Paradise, not on the Earth where suffering & injustice are a daily issue. Man himself chose to do what was not right, and had to leave Paradise. So suffering & pain, were not on God’s Agenda when he created humans. If one looks & considers only this eartly life, then suffering & pain do not make any sense. But looking at it from the view of Life Eternal, then those who suffer & believe in God, have their reward in the life after, and the suffering they bore on this earthly life seems to be peanuts compared to their rewards & joy in heaven. Moreover Jesus is supposed to have said to a saintly person(unfortunately I do not have the name now), that if it not been for the innocence of little children and the suffering of the just, who wipe out/compensate for some of the evil in this world, the world would have long come to an end. The famous visionary Anne Catherine Emmerich, is supposed to have said, that if angels were able to experience jealousy, they would be jealous of human beings for their ability to suffer, which is of such great value for Life Eternal.

    • “So suffering & pain, were not on God’s Agenda when he created humans.”

      If God is all knowing, then He knew exactly what was in store for Adam.

      “…the suffering they bore on this earthly life seems to be peanuts compared to their rewards & joy in heaven.”

      This seems to be a common response, see the previous post for my response to this reasoning.

      “Moreover Jesus is supposed to have said to a saintly person(unfortunately I do not have the name now), that if it not been for the innocence of little children and the suffering of the just, who wipe out/compensate for some of the evil in this world, the world would have long come to an end.”

      By that logic, we can influence the 2nd coming by increasing the amount of child abuse.

      “The famous visionary Anne Catherine Emmerich, is supposed to have said, that if angels were able to experience jealousy, they would be jealous of human beings for their ability to suffer, which is of such great value for Life Eternal.”

      Lucifer is also said to have been jealous of God… ergo, imaginary angels can experience imaginary jealousy.

  10. reverend purdy says:

    I am a Dudeist (look it up its a modernized version of Taoism) my two year old with medical problems passed away three weeks ago and what I can’t stale are all the people saying things like “it all part of God’s plan” or “find faith in god he will help you thru this” and so on even the “your in our prayers” is annoying I think between the suffering he had to deal with and the pain I have over his death says more to me their is no god some one even said “don’t blame god for his death” and all I can think is why would I a child that has medical problems and was acualy starting to get better dieing just proves to me there is no god why would a god take a child that is just getting better and leave the mother and father the pain of losing a child as a test of faith just sounds like a sick joke to me

    • Hi reverend purdy, I’m so sorry for your loss.

      Certainly part of the difficulty in believing in God is that it means someone is actually running this show, even controlling it, but still allows for such things to happen. That leaves us to try and make sense of why a God would allow such a thing. But if God doesn’t exist, then this is at least one way to explain His apparent indifference.

      Even for the non-believer, this would be a horrible tragedy, but the unbeliever realizes death has nothing to do with God, it’s just a part of life, and it can happen to anyone at any time. It doesn’t happen for any great reason, it just happens because human bodies are fragile and can break.

      But that’s not very comforting to a parent who has lost a child. Children can give us some of the greatest joys, but also bring the greatest sorrows. When death comes, all we can do is grieve and try to come to terms with it. But even if there is no God, you’re not alone, there are many others who share your unfortunate experience.

    • Anonymous says:

      Reverend purdy, I am so sorry for your loss. And I agree with you 100 percent. Im so sick of people saying if someone makes it after illness… they say… by the grace of god, or when they dont make it, they say… hes in a better place…. cliches thats all that is. It makes people feel better when they say that. I think there all brainwashed because I hear the same phrases over and over.. its like robots….. theres a reaon for everything…. its gods will, were going to heaven. And the one i cant ever understand is how exactly does god letting his son suffer and die supposly save our sins? that makes no sense whats so ever. Anyway, I cant imagine what pain your feeling but I hope one day you can smile again.my thoughts are with you

  11. I stop reading you article because it was down right making sick. There’s an absolutely amazing God. Who died for all our sins so we don’t have to suffer in Hell. And ya guess what I have two terminally ill boys and they were suppose to die or the disease was suppose to be gone by the time they were 5. They r know 13 and 15 and by the Grace of God they are doing alive well. All because I pray for them and keeps amazing care of them. There is a God and one day u will all find out and u can’t say I didn’t tell u because I just did.

    • Howdy Melissa,

      It sounds like you stopped reading my article because you’ve already been indoctrinated in a faith, and my article disagreed with it.

      I’m happy to hear your boys are alive and well today due to your prayer and care. If you’ll read some of the comments above, you’ll see that not everyone’s children have survived. Would you say God loved you more than them? Or that they didn’t pray hard enough, or care enough?

    • Cheryl says:

      Hi Melissa it is wonderful that your faith is so strong and your boys are well. I wish I had your conviction and understanding about the grace of God. I struggle with all the contradictions and of course I can not understand why my friend and reverend purdy (for example) can not share their life with their children on this earth. I bet if you ask them both they prayed for their children and cared for them too just as much if not more than you did. So Tell me Melissa why do they not still have their children but you do?

    • Anonymous says:

      well im so happy your boys are doing great Melissa, go look at some of the abused children that dont make it…. like the baby who got beat so bad her insides came out, or the boy who was forced to eat his own vomit for dinner, or the babys who get starved to death…………go look at all them and dont ever tell me how great god is…. him and the devil are the same. No one, even our god could let innocent babys and animals suffer like that and not help them if they could, god is suppose to be great and can do anything, but yet he prefers to sit by an watch it happen……….your just another brainwashed robot……..I noticed you used the phrase by the grace of god….to bad he didnt have any grace for those abused children

    • Stella says:

      What type of terminal illness do they have? Is it cancer most especially leukemia. Let’s wait and see.

  12. I won’t say what religion I was raised in but I will say what I was taught on this matter. Before Adam and Eve were created all of the angels had already been created. One of them who became Satan challenged God’s sovereignty by using the snake on the tree to question Adam and Eve about whether they should obey God or not. When Satan did that all of the angels were faced with that question as well. Some of those other angels became demons and Satan’s followers. So God has allowed sin and suffering to play out so that the question of his sovereignty will be answered and never questioned again by the angels when God finally puts an end to sin and suffering in the near future.

    • Hi ABey, thanks for sharing that unique take on suffering.

      I’d say to anyone teaching this view that it’s a bit like a father hitting his wife and kids to establish his “unquestionable sovereignty.” Inflicting pain on the innocent might allow you to control and dominate them… but it also makes you a giant douche, and not someone I’d want to love and worship freely. :-)

      • The other point that I get from that teaching is that the angels take precedence over humans because they were created first and individually by God and they are spirits like God. That is why the lesson of sovereignty is mainly for them. But at the same time they are perfect until they become demons for disobeying God. Because of that once they disobey God they are doomed for eternal destruction just like Adam and Eve since they were also created perfect. Since humans after Adam and Eve are all born into sin they have the benefit of a second chance because of Jesus because he was the only other perfect human. He’s like a second Adam buying back what was lost. Except there’s no guarantee that all of us will get that prize.

        Basically this all makes me feel like a pawn on a chess board when I choose to believe in God. Sort of like in the Clash Of The Titans movie from 1981. Except we supposedly have more free will.

      • Anonymous says:

        here here

  13. Jay says:

    God gave man control of the earth in Genesis 1:26. Man gave Satan control of the earth because of sin. Satan is the cause of all things evil in the world today. God will eventually remove Satan from having that power, but for now we have to deal with the ramifications of sin which include all sickness, disease and everything else bad in the world.

    In your post you make a statement that Adam had free will in the Garden of Eden but you left out a very important issue and that is that he had no knowledge of good and evil. Once he committed the only sin that he would have been capably of was he exiled from garden and started the pain and suffering in the world. It can’t truly be free will if you have no knowledge of what evil is. So, no I don’t believe there is any evidence in the Bible that free will and a pain free world can co-exist.

    • Howdy Jay,

      I hear you saying that because Adam had “no knowledge of good and evil,” then Adam didn’t actually have free will. But this comes with a catch: if Adam truly had no knowledge of good and evil, or right and wrong, then Adam would’ve had no idea it was “wrong” to eat from the tree.

      Yes, God may have said “This tree is forbidden,” but this is a bit like giving a 3 year old a gun and saying “This is dangerous, you are forbidden from shooting it at your brother.” The child can’t possibly comprehend the consequences of pulling the trigger and shooting his brother, so we can’t rightly hold him liable for doing so, even if we firmly warned him not to.

      We can’t have it both ways, either Adam had some knowledge of right and wrong and the free will to choose evil, or Adam had no knowledge of right and wrong, and can’t be held responsible for eating from the tree of good and evil.

  14. Lauren says:

    I appreciate your compassion for children and your hatred for suffering. I have a lot of the same questions. Here are some of my thoughts. One thing I notice in your article and replies is that you want to make the analogy of man causing suffering to god causing/ allowing suffering. Because one is wrong, you are saying it follows that the second is wrong. But I would say that you cannot compare the two. According to the bible, God is perfect. He is also all powerful and he made all of us. Man is sinful. Our motives are often not pure. A murderer or child molester certainly is not pure and *this is an important distinction* had no ability to offer something better to the victim as the result of the crime. But the Bible says that God does have something better to offer. Something far better than anyone can imagine. So the murderer or abuser is always wrong to cause the crime because he, one, violates a law that God established in the first place* more on this later, and two, it causes great suffering with no good outcome, as far as it is within the criminal’s power to control.

    That God made murder and abuse wrong is another important point. He agrees these things are wrong. He would agree that it’s wrong for MAN to slap his wife with the promise of some reward, because it is obvious that man is powerless to provide her a worthy reward. But God is not powerless, in fact, if the Bible is to be believed, he created this whole world. IF that’s true, then look around and one would have to agree he is amazingly powerful. So why can’t we believe that he has something amazingly better in store for any innocents he lets die a painful death. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that a child suffers to say, scare others into thinking about pain and suffering so that other non innocent people turn to God so they can enjoy the same afterlife as the innocent. The innocents meanwhile do suffer extremely but their reward is so great, their own pain is soon forgotten. I think it is comparable to a woman in childbirth. I’ve had four kids and three of them were natural childbirths with no drugs. It hurt so incredibly bad during those contractions. I cried out to God to stop the pain or to forgive my sins or SOMETHING, anything! I was powerless to stop that horrible pain. It went on for hours like God wasnt listening. But in the end I had my baby and the pain finally went away. For some reason this pain was necessary to allow the birth of my son. Actually the bible says this increase in pain was due to Eve’s sin. And you know what, that pain scared me enough that I stopped some certain sins I was still doing. I actually became a kinder person afterward (my family would agree). So my pain resulted in some personal benefit, spiritually speaking, and my child was my reward. I think of it like labor is suffering and death in this world and the baby is like eternal life. You have to die before you can experience eternal life. And from what I can figure, death probably hurts, more so for some people than others. Pain isn’t always bad, we can see in this life that pain can be good: a warning. Like touching a hot stove once teaches us to not touch it again and be careful of hot things. And I realize you also question seemingly senseless pain, like a hold that is tortured before he is killed–he has no chance to really benefit from that pain. In that case it would be others that benefit somehow through that suffering and the child would soon be rewarded beyond imagination to make up for the pain. I do also believe God designed our bodies to shut down our pain perception as a mercy in extreme cases; science also attests to this phenomenon.

    I really do get where you are coming from because I share the same questions and I once was an athiest/agnostic. Creation science is what really changed my mind and I became convinced Christianity must be true. It just so happens there are some parts to it I have a hard time understanding or that I don’t like, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be true. Why didn’t God just make the perfect world to begin with? Is hell really true? Why couldn’t he have predisposed us so that we wouldn’t want to do bad things. I don’t know but that’s how things are. Since believing intellectually the Bible was true I struggled for 5 years really living my life in a godly way versus the sinful way. But the sinful way always brought pain and discontent and God’s way was always better. Little prayers and big prayers were answered. I believe I am saved by grace and I don’t feel I deserve the good life I’ve been given while some others have experienced great suffering.

    My experience has proved to me that Chrisitanity is true and I accept the reality that is. Something can be true and not really likable to us.

    There’s a lot more I’d like to say but those are my thoughts for now. Some books I’d recommend are “More than a Carpenter” and “Many Infallible Proofs: Evidences for the Christian Faith”. I think those two books are great for either coming to faith in Christianty or at least understanding the logic that some Chrisians base their faith on.

    Take care

    • Hi Lauren, thank you for that well crafted response,

      If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that that pain and suffering in children is allowable/reasonable for 3 reasons:

      1) God is good and has our best interest at heart,
      2) God can promise a greater reward than any man, and
      3) God can use the suffering of the innocent to convert the guilty.

      I conceded that man is not the best analog for God, and that we should judge God on his own merit. So let’s do that…

      God is said to be good and perfect, and yet His fruit… His creation… seems to lack goodness and perfection. If God is good and perfect, why not craft a better world? A world where we each have free will, but no man can torture another man, or take away his free will or his right to live. (If we were not able to kill, we would just assume that this is the way the world works.) Why would a good and loving God create an environment where such evils are possible? Where even the animals must kill and consume one another for sustenance? Surely God didn’t have to make things this way. Such things run contrary to what a good and loving God would’ve created.

      As far as great rewards go, let’s imagine (very hypothetically) that God took on the form of a powerful man and broke into your home. He ties up you and your husband, and then rapes each of your children in front of you. He then dismembers them and sets you all on fire. Upon entering heaven, God says “Congratulations! Have I got a wonderful reward for you!” Now, before you say “God would never do such a thing,” just ask yourself… if He did… would the reward of Heaven justify His crime? Is all forgiven? Could you say to Him “That’s okay, we forgive you”? Or were His actions evil, and they always will be evil? Would you forever be in heaven thinking “This is great, but God was once very cruel to us”? Does the reward really negate the crime?

      While God would never do such a thing, He — and this is an important distinction — allows such things. In fact, He set this very world in motion knowing full well that such things would happen. And when they do, He stands idly by and watches. He could stop it, or prevent it, or even create a world in which such a thing were impossible, but He doesn’t. He waits until you’re dead and says “Wow, that was very sad, but congratulations! I have a wonderful reward for you!” as if He had nothing to do with that evil, as if He couldn’t stop it, as if it were all somehow your fault, as if preventing the crime would’ve been far worse than allowing it! You may enjoy your reward, but you will always be thinking “This is great, but God once allowed something very unspeakable to happen to me… how nice could He really be to allow such a thing?”

      I think we can all agree that this world would be a better place if man were not permitted to torture and kill children, or if children didn’t die from simple diseases. And while the vast majority of us “evil” humans would agree to this, God sees no reason to agree with us or impose such a good and holy restriction. Why?

      For me, such suffering leads me to question the existence of a good God, not make me want to bow down to Him.

      Take care.

      • Lauren says:

        Hi, thank you, and yes I think you correctly summarized three of those points I was making. A few thoughts in reply… I think God could be good and still allow evil to happen because “what we meant for evil He used for good”… Also, in the Bible, God says a few things to the extent of saying that He cannot commit evil. He also condemned people to die as punishment for the evil things they concocted in their minds, implying and directly saying in a few places that it really is their mental creation, this evil. Yes God created man with that capacity to begin with but it’s really not the same as God himself doing it. Like you said God really wouldn’t commit that hypothetical crime you suggested (and if he actually would, yes it would be appalling to me) and unless he did I really don’t think I would have a grudge against him. I don’t think God will be flippant towards the suffering we endured. His rewards will more than compensate. And if eternal life does more than compensate for our suffering, then we won’t be able to feel resentment because the past won’t matter. The Bible does say that we’ll be made perfect in heaven and won’t have sinful thoughts or desires, He will wipe every tear away, and the lion will lie down with the lamb. Basically He will give us the world both you and I wish He would give us now. I think God put eternity in our hearts now and we know something is wrong with this world. He did originally create the world to be perfect but man sinned and sin put the world under a curse. But God does have a plan of redemption in place though he allows evil as a part of that plan.

        I really don’t think that a perfect God allowing evil is irreconcilable. An analogy on a very simple scale is allowing your child to make a mistake so that they learn a lesson for their own good. The mistake could be very unpleasant but you would have the child’s best interest in mind. So using something bad for our good can be consistent with righteousness. Of course WE never have permission to cause true evil to happen to other humans in order to try to effect some “good” but if God is all powerful and it’s possible for him to one day right all wrongs and make things better I think it’s reasonable to trust him that he is right and that he could be allowing evil to happen to us for our good.

        Something else to consider is that if there is a God, there are sooo many gifts we ARE blessed with. I can’t remember if you said you had children or not, but if so, you understand the miracle of life you see in a newborn baby. Or if you have a wife or someone you love deeply you could thank God for those blessings. I can worship God for the blessings he has given me in life because if I count my blessings they greatly outnumber my sufferings. I still see favorable things stacked on God’s side, like blessings, life itself etc… Plus the promise of eternal life that will make any negatives worth it in the end. While I wish He didn’t have to include suffering in this current plan, He did, and overall I think we have much more to thank him for than be angry with him over.

        On another note, you quoted that passage about how if evil man knows how to give good gifts to his children, how much more will God give gifts to those who ask. There is actually a parrellel passage in another of the synoptic gospels where it says “how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.” This leads to the understanding that the passage you are quoting is really referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts he provides. One can have the Holy Spirit and still suffer persecution, in fact Christians are promised persecution. If that passage were only referring to wordly gifts and answered prayers it would seem a lie because we ask him to stop our suffering and sometimes the answer is no. But when you understand the passage as speaking of spiritual gifts you realize he is talking about giving you something that no murderer or abuser can take away from you– the Holy Spirit which among other things is our downpayment on eternal life.

        You might be interested in visiting http://www.persecution.com. It’s a ministry that helps Christians around the world deal with the troubles caused by persecution for their religious beliefs. It amazes me to know that these people face so much abuse and still their faith is strong. They also don’t fight back. American Christians have it so easy compared to Christians in the rest of the world. These are Christians who really put their money where their mouth is so to speak and not only worship a God who allows evil, but willingly suffer that evil for the sake of the gospel. Their stories really helped me to better understand the purpose of evil in this world and how God can use it for our good. Also noteworthy is how evil is minimized every time a true Christian is made. Those “Christians” throughout the ages who used force to evangelize were no Christians at all. At least not biblical Christians the way Jesus told us we should live. A good example of Christianity changing lives for the better is the Waroni people who Nate Saint and friends reached. There was so much murder practiced in that tribe but after someone dared to reach out to them they were saved and future generations were saved from a horrible life.

        Have to run but have a good day!

        • Hi Lauren,

          Okay, well, at least we quickly identified where we disagree: I say allowing evil deeds makes one evil, and you say it doesn’t… if they reward you for eternity. Fair ‘nough. (But if Satan decides to turn over a new leaf and rewards people in hell for eternity, does that make him a good guy as well?)

          You mentioned the analogy of punishing our kids (I have two, 8 and 10), and I agree that in this world, punishment is necessary to sometimes prevent greater pain in the future. However, I think there are a couple key distinctions to be made…

          1) There’s a difference between punishment and abuse. I love my kids, so I punish them by yelling, grounding, taking away toys, sitting them in the corner, etc. I do not burn them with irons, cut off their fingers, expose them to radiation, or feed them poison. But God wouldn’t spare them from such abuse. If we looked around the world today and saw only punishment but no excessive abuse, then the God hypothesis would make sense. But this is not the case.

          2) When my children do wrong, I punish them to teach them something, but this is not how God teaches. He randomly doles out punishments and rewards to both the good and the evil, with no apparent rhyme or reason. What lesson is He teaching? Should we be good or evil? How would my children react if I cursed them for helping and rewarded them for hurting? If only the evil people in this world suffered punishment, and the good were rewarded, then the God hypothesis would again make sense.

          Christianity likes to sweep these problems under the rug by insisting that “God will stop allowing abuse after we die,” and “God will dole out reasonable punishments after we die.” Will He? Who really knows!? And if He plans on taking care of it later, why not now? Why deceive mankind by allowing punishments to appear random and natural?

          While this may all be a part of God’s plan, I’m just saying that the world we observe today (with its abuse and random punishment) is more indicative of a random natural order than a planned one.

          So if God asks me, “Why didn’t you believe in me,” I plan on asking Him, “Why did you deceive me by making the world appear as if it operated by natural laws? And why go so far out of your way to make yourself seem non-existent and disinterested?” …and I have about 498 other questions while I’m at it. :-)

          Live long and prosper!

    • Lyne says:

      Pain is not so bad you say? Wow I don’t think you would have said that if all your children were kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered at a very young age?

    • Anonymous says:

      Lauren, everyone has the right to believe whatever they believe, I believe suffering makes no sense whats so ever just so we can have a good life later. Whts the point. And what about animals, why do they suffer….. there are no reaonable answers at all and no common sense to why we should suffer so we can have a good life later……. and jesus dying for our sins is just hogwash.that makes no sense either. Sometimes I wish I didnt have a mind of my own and could walk around saying things like …. oh hes in a better place now and by the grace of god , and everything happens for a reason and not have to think about all the abused childeren , ( by the way , Im quite certain they suffered 100 times more then you did in child birth), and look at of that and say oh our god is so great and loving and blah blah blah…. but I cant, I didnt allow myself to be brainwashed with all that nonsense. All it is is phrases and cliches to make us feel better so we dont have to think about the tortured children and animals. Its so we can go along our life beliving we are going to a heaven when we die…… You know why it says we wont know hunger and we wont know pain anymore , its because we are dead and gone…… dust to dust , ashes to ashes…….lights out and we wont know the difference then

      • julie says:

        ow can God exist when there’s so much evil in the world? You can ask. But if there is ‘no God’ how can we call anything evil in the first place? The existence of evil assumes a standard that is used to distinguish good from evil. You can’t. account for a standard of objective ( good the moral rules that when broken concluded : evil or wrong has been committed) without the existence of moral rule maker: God. How do we make since of the diference between good and evil if first there is no God.

        • Hi Julie.

          I think it depends on how we define “evil.”

          As thinking and empathetic creatures, we can all observe the suffering of other people and animals and conclude that it is unpleasant. When that suffering does not appear to serve any useful purpose, we call it, or the person causing it, “evil”. Calling something evil is just faster than saying, “That thing is bad because if it happened to me, I imagine it would be very unpleasant and serve no useful purpose.” We could give it another name, but evil is understood.

  15. Nessa says:

    HI, First of all i want to commend you on such an awesome blog. You don’t just bash religion or glorify it… kudos to you for your open-mindedness. I have a 5 yr old terminally ill, severely neurologically impaired daughter…she cannot do anything, 24/7 care…not even smile. i’m in a rock and hard place…she lives in a completely broken unfixable body, or i eventually bury my beautiful baby one day. I was a very strong Christian before it happened. I also learned I was a self righteous one at that. My first lamentation was how dare “God” hurt me when I did EVERYTHING right? For the first time ever in my life i was convinced there is not a God….After 5 years, i have learned there is no black or white….Sin (original sin) falls on us all. Good/bad people, Muslims, Christians, Adults, old people and sometimes on the very innocent—-children. Some are just harder to swallow. I don’t think God planned it—sin is in nature, genetic cells, drunk drivers, the idiot nurse who wasnt’ paying attention to my labor, He just doesn’t always intervene. I don’t blame God for “causing this” I blame him for “not fixing her” (still working on that one) . With all we’ve been thru, the profound love for life i have discovered in myself and around me since my princess is born is something i could never have experienced/imagined had she not had her difficulties. Every day is truly an adventure to me and not one day is wasted. My last point on this is that our time on earth is fleeting, a few seconds in a the glimpse of a happy, HEALTHY ETERNITY! I know when I die my princess will be running to me in her yellow ladybug dress and we’ll be together forever. That sounds corny, but to me it’s the truth as much as the sky is blue.

  16. Julie says:

    True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.’— Akhenaton

    The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom. — Isaac Asimov

  17. Henry says:

    When I ask others for answers I get bible verses. I asked for answers not for you to tell me what you believe blindly.
    My life has not been in anyway joy full, I new god from a very very young age and have even met him believe it or not I don’t care, I can truly work hard, I can design and build with wood and steel can understand and am able to repair most electric systems may it be a toaster or a computer “much more not mentioned” but I was born in a country where if you are white you suffer to get a decent job so I must work for family whom has lied and manipulated to get what they have………… WHILE THINKING EVERY ONE ELSE IS A SERVANT TO THEM and then marry again others of the same mind sets, and since I can remember !!!every every every every!!! member of my family uses me for what they can get out of me with no care to my life or future. Don’t get me wrong if I did not live like this I would not be able to do a thing which I have mentioned but THIS IS NOT ANY KIND OF LIFE AND I WILL BY NO MEANS BE DOMINATED BY A BEING WHOM SEES ME AS IT’S SERVANT.

    So next God chooses your parents which dictates your traits and where and how you will live right. Until the age when you are able to choose and do for yourself right, ok so now after 18 years of abuse and rejection and emotional dis-formation and choices made in those dis-formations and only I am now the owner of my own sin and I am bad and wrong and sinful right. RIGHT SO LISTEN CAREFULLY AND HEAR MY WORDS FOR THE EVIDENCE WHICH I AM TOLD NOT TO LISTEN TO SHOWS ME THE NATURE OF GOD. This is mans purpose, to be a servant and serve a stronger being.
    Remember it is he and only he whom is said to be all powerful and all knowing and yet it is he whom has designed and made you as you are with all life’s ways and paths.

    God said it himself in the bible, that he had made us for his good pleasure.
    So if I suffer and have no way out then you need a savior, hahaha “so one has now been given” so called jesus. A need for him has been created, so we little ants must scurry around attempting to uplift ourselves and then he tells us SORRY but by no action of your own can you be saved. once again I need a savior so we all sit in our holes pleading and begging while he lays back and tells you he really understands your pain. Once again just like the power mongers of this world he and he alone has power doing to you as he pleases when ever he pleases. Ever since my childhood I asked why do the evil people live like kings and yet the good suffer indescribably when the bible teaches it rains upon the just and unjust alike “buuuullshit”. All right so david in the bible was told and then shown their end which in apparently very bad? ok so if that is true then in life I must aspire to be gods good little servant so in the unknown life here after I know how to be a good little servant. So I see Im being told to be a servant of a more powerful being or suffer beyond imagining in a place called hell.

    • Hi Henry.

      Are you saying that God exists, but has created us because it brings Him pleasure to watch us suffer? While I’d agree that such an explanation would better fit our observations, I think most believers would insist that God is a God of love, and is more interested in loving us… even if He has a pretty messed up way of showing it.

      That said, I’ve often thought the Bible WOULD make a lot more sense if God simply admitted to enjoying both good and evil. Then we could say that we truly ARE made in the image of God, and that He enjoys the occasional bit of violence just like we do, but He also wants to see the good guy win.

      It certainly doesn’t compute to say that God loves us unconditionally, yet creates us with the ability to experience intense pain and suffering, and has no reservations about casting us into hell for all eternity. Such behavior is not reflective of a loving God. God could’ve just as easily not created us, or created us with a higher tolerance for pain, or sentenced us to non-existence instead of hell. If we are to judge a tree by its fruit, then God’s fruit is truly rotten.

      But my best guess is that these concepts don’t compute because the idea of god comes from the flawed mind of man, and our stories are all subject to human error.

  18. Henry says:

    Thank you so much for your reply I do appreciate very much talking about these things. The same after I posted this I was shown this and would just like to share it with you.

    God has put you where you are as a designed path, you have free will, there is a destination awaiting you.
    Yet you must do that which is required and walk that named road to get to your destination, but remember you must work for if God will only give to you so that you as a human with free will would become spoiled and unwanted by others because of rich boy manners and desires.
    Suffering exists because free will exists, it is the choices and actions of others whom has damaged and offended you not that of God. Or do you want to be a robot with no choices and no mind and pleasure just stored until needed.
    Learn with the guidance of God to be strong and upright so that you may be able to forge your own destiny.
    God tells us of the crowns that will be received by those whom have persevered in suffering and in trials needed to clean out the impurities of your fore bares choices and makings. So as gold must be cleaned to purity so that we may want it so your spirit and mind must be cleaned. That which is rare and pure if of great value to a god and a man.

  19. Henry says:

    I am though not converted to full trust in God but the more picture I get the more understanding comes. Many thoughts still lume but I will see to find more answers and if I do I will share if that is ok.

  20. Henry says:

    I have the understanding that this life is in fact only a schooling of sorts and in believing our spirit does not die with this body we are being prepared with all the universal possibilities for a time after this one.

  21. Henry says:

    In remembering my mind is capable of believing and accepting UN-true information and basing other thoughts and ideas upon these per-concepts one tends to want to believe the worst about one whom has in some way offended us, so we receive an emotional pay off by hating another. And then in turn any other information we receive will be conformed to what we believe already only to bolster our already miss informed thoughts.

  22. allen says:

    What a great topic. I once had a strong belief in Jesus, I had a radical healing and transformation in 1999 from an abusive lifestyle. However, after this powerful healing, God’s care, and interest in my life seemed to wear thin over time; after 13 years of pain, suffering, and loss, I can only guess as to why a Being who promises hope, healing, blessings, would fail to deliver. Now, I’ve come to accept the fact that He isn’t going to help for whatever reason, that ship sailed a long time ago. Whatever reason it may be, sin, lack of faith, lack of church involvement.

    The thing is, I spent the better part of my christian walk doing all the right things, to become the ideal christian, i.e. like Jesus. Confession, community, loving/serving others, discipleship, etc. The only thing I can say is, I’ve suffered more, endured more, and had more bad luck, than I can possibly care to type here. Even Jesus had an end to his suffering, mine doesn’t seem to end. And now, if I fall away, do I get endless suffering in the afterlife too? Thank you Jesus for saving me? I know God is real, because I had a real encounter with a supernatural being, however, my life doesn’t match up with that of the life described of the believer in the Bible.

    I have failed, either too many bad decisions or whatever. Yet I still strain in prayer, still voice my concern to this God, years on end…all this had led me to understand why our American forefathers were deists. This is my conclusion folks, and were my ranting/whining about my personal life relates to this topic: God may be real, but we are the cause for sin. War, murder, rape, etc. is mostly because of us, not God. From a scientific point of view, even if some random disease that isn’t cause by man ravishes men, women, children, it’s the result of human beings living in a fallen world.

    A world of imperfection, people that are imperfect. So whatever good comes our way, we really should be thankful, suffering should help us to understand life is precious and short at times, we should share more, love more, enjoy our pathetic short lifespans more. If the Bible is true, then of course, all of our woes, dreams, and cries are answered in a perfect world/heaven. So what is eternity in heaven compared to a limited amount of individual suffering on earth?

    I don’t know why children suffer from cancer, disease, and mentally ill people who abuse them. I also don’t know why countless ‘normal’ people abuse their animals either by abandoning them to die in shelters, or whatever horrors in the world I can think of. It may be God’s mercy to allow some to suffer, in hopes that we learn how tragic the human condition is, and to appreciate what matters in life, in hopes that what is good, will last for eternity. It may be God’s mercy to have mercy on others and heal them, allow them to be blessed, and answer their prayers.

    All’s I can say is, if that many children are dying every day, and you are one of the few who care enough to do something about it, then go and do it. Go be the caring/feeding hands, at least you’ll make one small difference, instead of complaining, put your anger/heartache/passion to action. All’s it takes is one person to impact another, and you can change a life that way. Sure, be mad as hell at God, I know I am, my christian mother died of cancer, and she thought she was getting healed.

    She died in her late 40’s. But, if He is real, I can spend whatever time I have left, being the kind of person God desires me to be, or at least die trying. I don’t think we should be asking so many questions, but be people of action instead. So if you have the hope of eternity, i.e. in a perfect world, in a never ending blissful existence, do you think your negative experiences on earth will negate the joy you experience in the afterlife?

    I don’t think so, it will probably seem like a blink of an eye. Maybe in the afterlife, we will choose to do things God way, after the age of mankind on earth is said and done. I mean, who wants to experience all these pain and suffering all over again? So really, I think suffering is one way is the natural consequence of free choice, God allowing people to do whatever they wish, believe whatever they believe, but also experience some of the realities that come with that belief. We can’t possibly make sense of all the negative crap in life, but you can at least make sense of your surroundings.

    For example, if you cheat on your wife, look at porn, you are damaging the security of your relationship with your spouse. Which in turn damages your children’s security in a healthy and nurturing environment. Now is it God’s fault you are wrecking your children, and why should your children have to suffering through divorce, poor parenting, and all the consequences that come with that? Therefore, if grown men cannot have enough sense to keep their families stable, secure, and safe by loving, and caring for them by safeguarding their own hearts…how can we decide how God is unfair on such huge matters, such as millions of babies dying everyday?

    I think we need to start small first, start with your own family, are you helping those around you? Are you protecting your family? Are you loving them? Are you held accountable by other men? Do people truly know who you are? Rant and rave all you want, but I think change comes first with family, and hopefully someday, our children can lead lives that make big changes in this world if we can’t.

    • Hi Allen, thanks for the reply.

      I’m so sorry for all your suffering. I know that life can be difficult at times, and it’s sometimes more difficult for some than others (either because God wishes it… or such is the random nature of life).

      One question though… I love kids, and I happen to think it’s morally wrong for them to be made to suffer for someone else’s crimes (e.g. Adam’s). When they’re still young and without sin, wouldn’t it be MORE ethical and righteous of God to allow them to return to Eden, rather than punishing them for someone else’s sin? Even if God kills these children, and then rewards them with eternal bliss, has He not just needlessly punished an innocent person? These children had no need of free will, for they were born only to suffer and die! How could a loving God allow such a thing, when it could’ve been so easily avoided?

      My point in asking all these questions isn’t to rant against God, but to say the God hypothesis appears illogical.

      I do agree with you that we need to work together to reduce the suffering of children, because if there is no God… then we are the only ones that can help them.

      • allen says:

        Sorry about that, I know you aren’t ranting, I was refering to the general ranting people make against God. I definitely agree with you, children should not suffer the consequences of other peoples sins. Can I add I’m really impressed with everything you have to say, you obviously have a gift, usually people are one side or the other, and with not much to say other than what has already been said without getting to the heart of the matter. I didn’t address children suffering over the sins of the father completely…unfortunately, somewhere in the bible, it’s says that man was given dominion over the earth, and then we handed that over to Satan. Or somewhere else, it’s says that the enemy of this world is actually the Prince of the air, meaning, he rules this world.

        In essence, if God created us in his image, and since God rules, he gave us this earth to rule, and have dominion over, which we do, in a negative sort of way, destroying each other, and it’s natural resources, with some good sprinkeled here and there. I don’t think God wants to allow children to suffer or die, that’s just insane. I can’t believe in a God who would allow this either. But if there is a God, understanding our dominion is key, or at least I think it is. We inherited this earth, he gave us reign and rule in the garden, after we fell and sin was introduced. To say that we would never do what Adam did seems logical, living in a perfect world, why would we screw that up (By the way, Adam only had one choice, to eat or not to eat, not the knowledge of good and evil, nor did he choose evil or good, because he had no idea what they were beforehand.)?

        But the truth is, we do everyday, everyone makes poor choices, it’s our nature, it’s the world we live in. Because of original sin, and our daily choices, we now get to live with that. That brings up the question, is God just for allowing us to suffer for so long under the consequence of our choices, and others choices? I don’t know, I’m not God, and I’m certainly no judge on the matter, I’m not qualified to judge a man, so how can I judge a god? But I do have a brain, and my brain tells me, that our condition on earth, and what we have to go through is crazy.

        We want God to respond to our screw ups a certain way, including original sin and our daily mess ups. But He has chosen to resond in one way, fortunately/unfortunately through Christ. God is willing to redeem us, and offer us the world we want/need, but He respects our free will, and the image in which we are created. He knows the possibilities of all that could go wrong, and of course we are experiencing all this now, here on earth, whether as a direct result of our bad choices, original sin, someone else’s sin, etc. God says, this is what I created you for, so now you have a choice, I’ll fix things, and there isn’t a quick fix.

        Sometimes God does heal people instantly, and fix situations with a snap, but He doesn’t do that for everyone obviously. So in answer to your question, I don’t think God wants children to suffer, but in the end, we are all held accountable for so much, because our choices, much like a ripple affect, directly influence others whether we realize it or not. The good news is, he knows that, and provides a way into the new world were not even one tear will drop to the ground, or one baby will die. God knows our nature better than anyone else, including us; some need to get their hearts wrenched right out of there chests to change, others need only a little tinkering. Children should never suffer and die, but they do.

        Children have been suffering and dying for a long time now, in ancient times, people would sacrifice their children, or in times of starvation, eat them. It’s terrible, and even now, killing them off through abortion, though it can be argued what would a life of suffering be fair, so why not just spare them a life of suffering? Personally, I’d much more prefer birth control, because ending a fetus life is just haunting to me, i.e. what could have been…you just never know. But I respect others choices, though God might not in this case, I think it angers him.

        Somewhere in the bible people were sacrificing their children to the false god Molech, for the sake of crops, fertile outcomes, ,etc. The bible was pretty clear about how God felt about this…I think now we sacrifice our children for some very similar reasons: because we don’t have self control, or sense before hand to use contraceptives, we get rid of the baby for the sake of financial stability. Of course it can be argued that why bring a child into the world without loving care, and a fighting chance through good nurture/nature. But it seems hypocritical or much less, can I say, a moot point (not less important though) to ask God why he allows millions of babies to die, or children to suffer, when we abort babies by the masses.

        We can justify our reasons, financial, security, non nuturing environment, health reasons, etc. We get to play God over anothers life. Okay, that’s fine, so does God get to play God over ours then? Where does it end, we kill each other, babies, people in war, etc. But when God kills us, is he unfair or cruel? Or how that death is brought about, is it cruel? I personally think we don’t know what the depths of what love is, what a real loving God would allow for the sake of the greatest good. Just like in war, people die, children die, needlessly, it’s often from starvation, a slow death.

        The bible says we are in a war with evil, Satan and his angels, and man is ever in the valley of decision. War has casualties, and I think its right of us to say, what the heck is wrong with children dying everyday…everything is wrong with that. But we have to remember, if we are going to believe in God, we have to believe, and look at what he says, we are at war, there isn’t a easy way through it. Because of God’s nature, and He can’t change, He wont’ force himself on us, the devil, or others. That’s the beauty and dreadful thing…Of course he steps in from time to time, but ultimately, we are suppose to be running the show with God, i.e. dominion, instead we are attempting the run the show without Him.

        Even with Him, there will always be problems, challenges, losses, gains, etc for His purpose, not ours. We get to decide, it’s either the long hard road of health, or the even harder road of death and seperation from God eternal. Both roads have pain, suffering, and death, but only one has hope and meaning in the end. God wants to bring us all into a new world, we crave it, we dream about it, we are meant for it. I believe that is why we cry when someone dies, instead of accepting it as evolution. We cry because we have eternity set into our hearts, we long to be with our loved ones forever, we long for safety, comfort, hope and healing.

        That’s what we are made for, and God is going through all the necessary prepartions for that, according to the bible. But my words can’t convince you, no logical explanation is going to convince you God exits. The thing is, when God reveals himself to you finally, what are you going to do with your logical conclusions? That’s were faith steps in, not necessarily that God asks you to remain dumb, unthinking, or to stop asking questions. God doesn’t ask you to have faith for no reason, it’s the other way around, when he reveals himself to you, you won’t be able to make sense of your conclusions, and the answer is to trust as you can, because we are not God.

        This wont’ make sense when God hasn’t revealed himself to you, i.e. via encounter. You first must have an encounter with God. Then he asks you to have faith, no the other way around. I don’t know if it is possible for you sir, but I would travel to Redding, California, and visit a church called Bethel. There have been times when my faith was so weak, my brain too doubtful, and God just takes over. LOL, it’s not the grape juice, or some scam, or some thoughtful or convincing sermon, it’s God showing up and touching peoples lives in a tangeable way. I can’t explain it, but it’s real.

        I don’t know why God chooses to use Bethel, rather than, lets say, your living room, to reveal himself. But I think it has something to do with community. Many people come from all over the world to this church, it’s international, people move here just to attend, many get touched, healed and changed, some do not get all they want, but one thing is for sure, you don’t walk away the same. If I were you, and you are a true seeker of the truth, give God this chance, come check it out, if you are able. It seems silly to travel to just attend church, then travel here for the purpose to write a good article then on the church, it’s one of the more famous ones in US.

        That being said, I would never recommend a big popular church, but for some reason, God really does show up, and for that reason, you owe it yourself, as a critic or whatever, wanting to believe, to give yourself a full fledge chance. Okay, I’m done here, writing too much, and I’ve got to get back to homework. Can I just say, that you aren’t alone, I agree with so much you have to say, but as one who has experienced the supernatural, I can’t ever truly write off God, I think you deserve that chance, maybe you will do more with it than I have.

        • Thanks, I try to be reasonable. But I know what you mean about people always being on one side of the fence or the other. It’s very hard not to pick a side.

          So for starters, I would ask “What on earth is God doing turning dominion over to idiots like us? Does He think we’re in any position to rule the world?” I certainly wouldn’t trust Adam to make that call.

          I often hear people say, “We screwed up! It’s our fault the children suffer!” but God’s the one who makes everything and decides how it all plays out. God could’ve just as easily chose not to make us, or made Adam with more willpower, or refused to turn over the world to us (for our own good, as we had no idea what we were in for,) or refuse to allow children to suffer. God could also just create us in heaven and say “If you don’t want to stay, you’re free to return to non-existence.” But God can’t simply say “This mess is not MY fault, it’s YOUR fault, I had nothing to do with it!” Sure He did, He created it! It played out exactly as He knew it would.

          I agree with you that “Adam only had one choice, to eat or not to eat, not the knowledge of good and evil, nor did he choose evil or good, because he had no idea what they were beforehand.” That being the case, Adam could not have known what he was doing was wrong, because what is “wrong”? Adam was in no position to make the decision that he did. God, knowing everything, is the logical choice for who should decide what’s best for us, not Adam!

          “Children should never suffer and die, but they do.” Precisely! ;-)

          We may be at war with Satan, but where did this idea even come from? If it’s true, why would a good and perfect God EVER choose to create an evil angel? That’s just illogical. He wouldn’t! He couldn’t! (But man couldn’t call God evil, so they needed a scapegoat, ergo Satan… even if he’s illogical.)

          And if God is all-knowing, He would’ve known Satan would turn evil, so the logical choice for an all-knowing, all-good God would be not to create him at all (or cause him to cease to exist the moment he turned evil). Why create him, and then let him run rampant, starting spiritual wars and such? That doesn’t sound very smart. Don’t we humans do enough evil on our own?

          As you hinted, the Bible also says that the road to hell is wide and heavily traveled, but the road to heaven is narrow. Again, if God knows everything, why would He choose to create a world where He loses the majority of souls to hell? This too is illogical.

          But maybe these crazy ideas just spring from the minds of men, in an attempt to explain the randomness and craziness around us. If God doesn’t exist, and nature is all there is, then this would explain why the world seems so random, crazy and indifferent. It’s not that God doesn’t care, it’s that there is no such God. Either this, or we were created by an illogical — but all-knowing — God, who now fights invisible demons — that He created — over our souls… and is losing! Does this story make any sense?

          I agree that much of what Christianity is about is a personal experience, or personal revelation. Somehow, we feel it’s okay to set logic and reason aside and trust our emotions and experiences instead. I did, until I found out that people of opposing faiths were also receiving personal revelations from God about how their faith was the correct one. How could we both be right? Seeing these people on fire for another religion… I realized these convicting feelings weren’t exclusive to Christianity, and that feelings are misleading. It takes more than just feelings to root out truth.


          • allen says:

            I couldn’t agree with you more, I know I have long replies, and often defending God or in opposition. Mostly, I’m hashing out my believe system to see how I’ve gone wrong, if that makes any sense, or see what’s wrong with what I’m believing. I don’t take offense at people asking tough questions about Christianity, because I agree a lot of the time, nor do I think God, if he truly exists, would even care in such a way that he couldn’t handle it.

            As far as turning dominion over to humans, and may I add, giving us free choice…I’ve been asking that question since I’ve been saved, or once was. I heard it argued that the joy of millions of souls saved doesn’t negate the complete insanity of millions going to hell…I never understood that response. People always told me, God gives everyone a chance, or choices to make…but I know so many who make the wrong choice but still wind up doing well with God. While others, struggle hard to make all the right ones, and fail one time, and things really go south. To tell you the truth, grace versus choices makes absolutely no sense to me, were does one begin and the other end…

            In addition, if Christianity is all about the right choices, choosing to forgive, choosing to walk in grace, choosing to believe, choosing to pray, etc. Then how is Christianity fundamentally different than attaining nirvana, i.e. work your way up, or whatnot? Grace is suppose to be about God lifting you up, empowering you, but so many are failing in the church, I can’t tell you how many christian guys are addicted to lust. I don’t see many who walk like Jesus, some are really great people at best, but I’ve never seen a miracle performed, though I’ve heard of many, and friends of mine have experienced them, sometimes, many miracles.

            Anyways, so my doctrine is all messed up, so I really don’t know about Christianity anymore, I just try to keep it focused on this guy/god Jesus, if indeed he is real and he really does care about me and you. As far as fighting battles over our souls, and creating man in the first place, you are right, it makes no sense to me, whatsoever. I guess I’d go with the cliche’ God doesn’t want robots, lol. But, then again, if we are created to be gods, as the bible suggests, then that would mean we are suppose to know it all, and at the same time, be like him. So God, maybe is preparing a new race of humans, for all eternity, that are like Him, gods.

            I’ll give an example, I have a christian friend who has been given everything, nice upbringing, wonderful parents, nurturing environment, parents helped and encouraged goals, the list goes on and on. This guy for most of his life, has been one big brat, selfish, narcissistic, and depressed. He hasn’t been diagnosed with any mental illness, so nature isn’t a issue. Then I’ve have another friend, who normally should be in prison, because he was raised around drugs, parents abandoned him, he has no support system in his life besides his few friends, he battles so much, and has so little, yet he is one of healthiest, most attractive personalities I know.

            Normally, good parenting, should help us reach our genetic potential, that plus positive experiences…so the mentioned above makes no sense to me at all. Therefore I’ve come to the conclusion that there is some genetic predestiny going on, and even above that, I believe it to be an example of how, ironically, good things come out of bad, and supposedly good environments give birth to mediocre or bad. Which I think God is somewhere in those details…it’s an area of study I’m really interested in, development during the lifespan.

            In conclusion, God’s battles, human dominion, choices, good/bad, serves some kind of ultimate purpose, or at least it seems so. It doesn’t when I look at things like millions going to hell, but when I look at my individual life, it makes much more sense, only because those are the things I can even begin to make sense of. I honestly had to let this one go, because I couldn’t understand God, or his will, or his choices. I guess for a guy like me, that leaves very little choices in regards to faith, because of the lack thereof, but then again our faithlessness doesn’t nullify the faithfulness of God, that’s scripture.

            In the end, I guess when you are in a place of doubt, unbelief, but you want to believe, but for whatever reason you cannot, then pray some really hard prayers if you have the courage, and willing to see it through with God. At least this is what I’ve heard. Someone told me once, ask God, to change you, in whatever way necessary, in order to be right with him, i.e. ask him to do whatever it takes to get you back into a place of real faith. Warning: sometimes that looks like a lot of pain and suffering, by the way, I’m not being sarcastic. If your life is comfortable, and you like it, I wouldn’t pray this prayer unless you are prepared for the cost. I’ve heard some people give God permission to inflict sickness, pain, whatever it takes, to get them into a place with God.

            Now I know this is going to sound absurd to you, and I can already hear your objection, I’m not disagreeing. But for some reason, this works, especially when you are sincere. I’ve prayed this before and things happened. Simply just give God permission to do whatever it takes to get to where you need to be with Him. But uh, again, this isn’t for weak, it’s for serious desperate sinners, or back sliders, or people losing their faith. Kinda like a calling 911 spiritually. Really all’s it is, is that you are letting God take control of your life, he isn’t going to do a thing until you give permission. But like Jesus, which God didn’t spare him, should be an example of how crappy things can get. It’s lunacy, but if God is real, and you want Him, I know this works for me and others.

            I just don’t have the guts to pray this all the time, in my life I’ve prayed it maybe 2 times.

            Why God just wont bless us all, until we are all smiling and loving Him, I really don’t know. Kinda makes one wonder, what “heaven” really is….

            • “I guess I’d go with the cliche’ God doesn’t want robots, lol.”

              My response to that would be, “God also doesn’t want smart people, which is why he made us so dumb.” You have to admit, we humans are complete idiots compared to God. Why God would find pleasure in such idiot creatures choosing (or not choosing) Him, I have no idea. This too seems illogical.

              As for “genetic predestiny,” I’d recommend questions 27 & 28, they kinda cover that same territory.

              I used to honestly pray for God to do whatever was necessary to give me faith. But I do often hear people say things like, “You need to believe before you can see.” But sometimes I think we find whatever we’re seeking for. People who are searching so hard for God because they want to find Him, WILL find Him, just as people who are searching so hard for Waldo WILL find Waldo. :-)

              If we insist on interpreting things around us in a certain way, that’s what we’ll start to see. That is to say, I don’t think that searching hard or praying hard leads to truth as much as it leads to whatever you’re looking for. If someone from another religion said they prayed really hard and God revealed the truth to them, would you accept their conclusions? Probably not. You’d just think they got the answer they were hoping for.

              But if we can pray for God to break us so we can have more faith, why can’t we also just pray to God for some kind of little sign. Heck, I’d be fine with him just levitating a penny for a minute (question #7), or sending a little fire down from heaven (#9). Anything really. And then I’d be a Christian for the rest of my life — no need to ask for anything again.

              So, you can pray for something (anything) to happen to you, and likely one thing or another will happen, and you can say it was God. But ask God to levitate a penny for you… and He’ll always refuse. The funny thing is, an imagined god would behave exactly the same way. Coincidence?

  23. Anonymous says:

    God letting innocent chidren die is sorrowful for the living but the heavenly hosts are welcoming a new person into heaven

    • A reassuring thought, but do you have any proof of this outside of the Bible?

      If there is a God, then the evidence of this life says that He finds it ethical to torture the innocent, so who’s to say He won’t also find it ethical in the next?

      • Tina Mac says:

        Wow, I have read all the posts and the reason I even got on this website is because I typed in “Why do the children have to suffer, I hate you God !!” It brought up this website! I thought to myself; While I was cussing out God, I must believe in him because you can’t blame someone for everything if they are not real. right? So I do believe in him. All of you that keep asking question after question, and trying to doubt the existing of God, I believe that somewhere within you, that you truly believe their is a power out there greater than yourself. Or else that means we are having one lame discussion about something that is fake. I also believe that at the hour of your death, as you lay on your own deathbed, you will believe in God and as you take your last breath, you will finally know what all of us are trying so hard to figure out. I was going to tell all of you my horror story about what happenned to one of my children, but that will do nothing but convince someone else that God doesn’t exist. I would then be doing the devils work, so I won’t join in on that. It sure does sound that the ‘devil is in the details’ of some of the postings. Why the hell isn’t anyone putting blame where it is rightly deserved. On Satan. That is why bad things happen to good people and here I was going to join in on the Smear God campaign, but something came over me when I started to type. Believe me, I have every reason to blame God, but it’s not God, its Satan. Of Course everyone believes in Satan, no one will doubt his existence. I find that unbelievable. Satan must be laughing. To all of you- Stop asking why? Why? Why? – Just believe. Have faith, and thanks for making me see the light. PS. Sermon on the mount … the beatitudes are beautiful, there is one that says ‘Blessed it are those who suffer for the kingdom of heaven is theirs’ Sounds like we all have suffered. See you on the other side. PEACE

        • Howdy Tina, thanks for your post.

          “I must believe in him because you can’t blame someone for everything if they are not real. right?”

          Well, kids may blame Santa for not delivering the toy they asked for, but it doesn’t make Santa is real, it just means they’ve been told he exists, so their brain assumes that he does.

          “I believe that somewhere within you, that you truly believe their is a power out there greater than yourself. Or else that means we are having one lame discussion about something that is fake.”

          I think you’re right, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if some people didn’t believe that God was at least a possibility. The question is, how likely a possibility? Do we believe in God because all the evidence clearly points in that direction, or because it’s an ancient legend that has evolved over time, and is drilled into our heads since childhood?

          “Why the hell isn’t anyone putting blame where it is rightly deserved. On Satan.”

          Because who created Satan? God. If God created Satan, knowing full well what Satan would do, then God is every bit as guilty as Satan. It’s illogical to blame Satan without God sharing part or all of the blame.

          “Of Course everyone believes in Satan, no one will doubt his existence. “

          I doubt his existence. I believe nature is cruel and indifferent, as are some people. But I don’t think an invisible, evil ghost goes around making evil things happen.

          “Stop asking why? Why? Why?- Just believe.”

          As I mentioned in the post, this would make an excellent cult slogan, “Stop thinking, just believe!” But it’s not that simple.

          Today, 1 billion Christians say if we don’t accept that Jesus is God, we’ll go to hell. Meanwhile, 1 billion Muslims say if we DO accept that Jesus is God, we’ll go to hell. In which God should we “just believe”?

          And if we were born in ancient Rome, should we have “just believed” that Zeus resided on Mt. Olympus? Just because everyone else did? Or would we be right to question the reasonableness of these stories? Today we call these stories myths and legends, and perhaps future generations will say the same of our Bible.

          To sum up, I don’t think that childhood suffering and death proves the non-existence of God, but it does suggest a certain indifference. It could mean God doesn’t exist, or it could mean that God is evil, or that the Bible is incorrect, or that God once existed but no longer does.

          If it is nature that is indifferent, then such evil exists because nature is unthinking, and unaware of the problems that exist. But if God exists, He cannot be indifferent, but only cruel, because He is not only aware of the suffering and does nothing to prevent it, but He created it to begin with!

          Personally, I find the natural explanation much more comforting.


  24. Lisa Lee says:

    I don’t know why God allows children to suffer. I don’t understand why bad things happen to good people, or why there’s so much injustice in the world. Though this is hard to say, I don’t believe we are meant to understand. I try rationalizing that in order to appreciate all that is good there must be an equalizating presence of evil. It sounds good on paper until you hear horrifying stories like the mother who cut her newborn baby’s head off or the father who bit out his little boys eyes. I believe in God, but there is so mischief fail to see.

    • Thanks Lisa.

      Yes, there certainly are many horrific things that people do to children, too many to list. I often wonder how a loving God could stand by while a child is tortured for hours. That’s why, if I’m elected God, I will bring an end to childhood suffering, and not allow the free will of one person to negate the free will of another.

      But seriously, it doesn’t seem like it would be all that hard for a loving God to solve this problem.

  25. Tina mac says:

    Dear 500 Questions, I appreciate the reply, but I must say you do sound very angry. First, God did not create Satan, that is absurd. Why do you say not to blame Satan? It is Evil that does all these horrible things, not God. Somehow you think that God is suppose to be there to rescue everyone. That’s not the way it works. That would be too simple. All these people that do evil things to children are pure evil. It’s not God doing it. It’s mankind. Have you ever felt pure evil ? I witnessed it first hand as I stood there paralyzed in fear. This man’s face even transformed changing his looks. His eyebrows went way down to the middle of his nose. I will never forget that pure evil look for as long as I live. There was even a different smell in the room. Your telling me that God made this ???? Your anger has gotten the best of you. My anger almost destroyed me for about 10 yrs. Yes when bad things happen it seems to be God’s fault. Why didn’t he stop it? Why did he have to die? Why did he allow such suffering? I have a difficult time understanding all of it, but I do believe that we all will know the answer when we die. Who knows, maybe we are all dead and this earth is hell. Also when I say to “Just Believe’ I am not telling you what to believe in, I just want you to believe that there is a power greater than yourself. It’s a choice. Your choice. I did not say “stop thinking” eithier. Those are your words. You mention cult, maybe your anger has to do with a cult. Have you ever known anyone who has gotten sucked up in a cult. I have, my daughter- So believe me I am NOT saying STOP THINKING AND ACT LIKE A CULT.
    Also you mentioned Santa, and I quote
    “Well, kids may blame Santa for not delivering the toy they asked for, but it doesn’t make Santa is real, it just means they’ve been told he exists, so their brain assumes that he does”
    to that I say, they have also seen santa, sat on his lap, spoke to him face to face, seen him in cartoons, movies, commercials, etc…. Sure kids can blame santa, just as you can blame God and it makes him real if you believe.
    You keep talking about nature, do you mean God? Who made nature? You can call him or her whatever name you want but it is a power GREATER than yourself.
    I hope if you respond that you will take the anger out of the response, and just respond with your heart, not what has happenned to you. Were only here for a short time. It will be over soon enough, might as well make the best of it so why not just believe. It sure is better than not believing. I want to believe that I will see the love of my life that died too young. I want to believe I will see my sister that died from anorexia. I want to believe I will see my baby daughter. I want to Believe. I want to believe, and I do Believe. No one is taking that from me ever again. I think you believe too, PEACE.

    • Hi again,

      “I appreciate the reply, but I must say you do sound very angry.”

      Do I sound angry? I don’t see it. I may have objected to some of your assertions, and I tried to provide sound evidence to the contrary, but I do so as politely as I know how. :-)

      God did not create Satan, that is absurd.

      I’m going to disagree with you now and try to provide sound evidence to the contrary, please don’t take it personally. :-)

      The Bible makes is clear that all things are created by God:

      Colossians 1:16 – “For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

      Nehemiah 9:6 – “Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein…”

      John 1:3 – “God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.”

      Can you show me any verses in the Bible that support your assertion that God created everything, except Satan?

      If this idea seems absurd to you, then perhaps the Bible is a bit absurd.

      “All these people that do evil things to children are pure evil. It’s not God doing it. It’s mankind.”

      If humans were the only ones who did (what we call) evil, you might have a point, but not all evil is from mankind. Take the Ebola virus, or Tuberculosis, or flesh eating bacteria for example. I’m assuming none of these things existed in the Garden of Eden, and it is God who has put us in a place where such things exist, so our children might suffer from them.

      If God exists, than it is God who has put us in harms way. God could’ve just as easily left Adam and Eve in Eden, where their children would grow up never knowing such pain and disease, and God could’ve punished Adam and Eve for their disobedience in the afterlife. In fact, there are many paths God could’ve chosen that would’ve prevented injury to children.

      “Your telling me that God made this ????”

      Well… no, I would say the God argument is illogical, because a loving God wouldn’t pour out so much random evil on his children. Rather, I would reason that nature appears to have made viruses, harmful bacteria, and even imperfect humans, which better explains the callous indifference we observe. We humans are imperfect animals, and sometimes we still act like it.

      “I have a difficult time understanding all of it, but I do believe that we all will know the answer when we die.”

      And you’re welcome to believe that. But have you ever considered that maybe you have “a difficult time understanding it all,” because it doesn’t really make sense? Perhaps these logical inconsistencies are your brain’s way of saying “find a better explanation.”

      ” I did not say ‘stop thinking’ eithier. Those are your words…. I am NOT saying STOP THINKING AND ACT LIKE A CULT.”

      You said “To all of you- Stop asking why? Why? Why? – Just believe. Have faith…” To me, when we stop asking questions, and just accept something on faith (which is, to believe without evidence), we stop seriously thinking about these questions. If we just accept “a Higher Power” is the answer, and it turns out that “natural forces,” is actually the answer, then our faith would’ve stopped us from getting to the truth.

      You keep talking about nature, do you mean God? Who made nature?

      By nature, I mean the stuff that exists. Unintelligent atoms, space, etc. See question #6.

      “I hope if you respond that you will take the anger out of the response, and just respond with your heart, not what has happenned to you.”

      I really wish you knew me in person, I’m much nicer than the average male, and harbor no animosity towards God or anyone (except maybe those who disrespect others). I had a perfectly normal childhood, was a Christian for over 30 years, and have never lost anyone so close to me that it would make me hate God. It was questioning the inconsistencies of God hypothesis that brought me here, but I’m still open to believing if it really is supported by the observable evidence. :-)

      I agree with you that we’re only here for a short time, and in that time I would like to understand why we’re really here. I would also agree with you that life is better for those who believe, because that belief gives them a tremendous amount of hope, just as your faith gives you hope. However, for me personally, I don’t want hope, I want truth, I don’t want to believe, I want to know. I want to be able to reasonably defend the existence of God, or His non-existence. I’m more interested in finding the truth, even if that means that this is all there is of life.

      But the reason I write at all is because it makes me happy. If this life is all there is, and responding to these questions only made me angry, why waste my time?

      • Tina Mac says:

        500 questions, First of all you will never have your scientific answers, Never. Accept it. You will never believe. Your looking so hard for all the reasons why God does not exist. If someone gave you a million dollars to write a 2 page report on “Why God does exist” I bet you could write a beautiful essay. It’s just that you would rather stay stuck. You seem like you love to write and are very good at it, that is a gift. So why don’t you tell me Why God Does Exist. You just may find hope afterall. What do you have to lose?
        “he who loses hope, loses everything’ I HOPE you do it.

        • I can certainly try, uh hum…

          “Why God Does Exist,” by 500 Questions

          I believe God exists because I exist, and something must have made me. Therefore, God exists! And if God exists, then something must have made Him, therefore I believe the maker of God exists. And if God’s maker exists, then he too must’ve had a maker, so I believe in him as well. No… wait… let me start over…

          “Why God Does Exist,” by 500 Questions

          I believe God exists because the Universe exists. It’s big and complex, and complex things require an even more complex designer. But nothing is as complex as God, whose complexity just always exited for reasons I can’t possibly begin to explain or comprehend. But an extremely complex, intelligent, powerful and invisible God is more logical than a simple, stupid, powerless universe made of simple, visible elements. No… that’s not quite right either. Let me try again…

          “Why God Does Exist,” by 500 Questions

          I believe that God exists, not because it makes any logical, reasonable or scientific sense, but because I just feel it must be true. And unlike all the thousands of other gods that men made up and worshiped before Him, the one the Jews made up… er… had REVEALED to them, was actually the real one. God created trillions of planets, put us on one of them, got mad when we listened to the talking snake, let us live anyway, got mad again and tried to kill us with a flood, let us live again, then decided to impregnate a virgin with his son, who was actually Himself… but not entirely, so He could die for me to protect me from Himself. It really does make sense if you just stop questioning and have faith. PLUS, if you believe God exists, you get to live forever in a cool mansion! Which is far better than burning in hell for all eternity, like all those people who refused to believe me. Ergo, God does exist!

          • Tina Mac says:

            That was horrible, you don’t win. Try again with no sarcasim. Be sincere. It wasn’t even funny, it was more anger. All you did was make fun of everyone. God lives in a cool mansion. Get real. Heaven is not up and hell is not down. It is a different sphere. Don’t take things so literally. If you were really given a million dollars to write why God does exist, even if you don’t mean it, you could do it. Sister Teresa of Calcutta, who was made a saint wrote a book before she died. She too, admits she also wondered about the very existence of God. She spent her whole life in the slums helping starving, dying, diseased children. She writes that writes that in the mist of all this pain, sufferring, of children. She doubted there was a God. She was losing faith and understandably. Why don’t you read how she got it back. Just go on line and type in Sister Teresa.

      • Tina Mac says:

        hey 500,000,000 questions, please do not take my words out of context. By you surrounding them with your own spin on things… you make it sound the way you want to. wonder why you picked this to be the subject of your debate. What lead you here? Are you working for the enemy? how about 0ne question. do you believe, yes or no. The answer is yes.

      • Tina Mac says:

        God DID NoT Create Satan. Everyone but you seems to know that. That makes me angry that you would suggest such a horrible thought. Go out and take your scientific survey, 100 out of 100 people do not believe that sick statement. No reply is neccessary for this one.

        • I gave you three verses from the Bible that clearly indicate that God created ALL things on heaven and earth, visible and invisible, and all the hosts of heaven — without Him nothing was created. Show me a Bible verse that says otherwise! Or explain to me how Satan just popped into being by his own accord, I’d love to know!

          Even the folks over at Answers in Genesis agree with me… “So logically, Satan was created, as was the ‘heaven of heavens.'”

          • Tina Mac says:

            What bibe are you reading??? Satan’s version? Why don’t you quote the book and chapter????? Because you Can’t !!! There isn’t one

            • Did you not read my post? Here, I’ll give them to you once again…

              Colossians 1:16 – “For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

              Nehemiah 9:6 – “Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein…”

              John 1:3 – “God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.”

              • Tina Mac says:


                • Why are you yelling?

                  Of course that’s what it says, but all Bible interpretations are different. I’m not the one who translated it, but I’m sure the meaning is the same regardless of what version you have.

                  By “the S word,” I’m going to assume you mean Satan, and not shit. And it’s okay to say “Satan,” it’s not like saying “Voldemort,” he doesn’t magically appear just because you type his name.

                  Anyway, the Bible makes it clear that God created everything, including the “host of heaven,” which includes the Angels, Satan likely being one of them. Satan is never said to be self-created, and just about every Christian website on the Internet will probably back me up on that one.

                  Have a pleasant evening! :-)

          • freddymantra says:

            Hey 500 preguntas, sorry because of my english, I’m mexican and so catholic..
            1.- why do you talk like that about God?
            2.- Why do you talk for the children, did they tell you they suffer?
            3.- God created everything visible and invisible, on earth and heaven, but He also gave the freedom, that’s why evil exists on earth.
            4.- All of your stupid 500 questions are very simply to answer, because you have only mind to fight.
            5.- You have 500 questions for us, but I have only 1 for you:
            * If you don’t believe in God, or if you believe in a false “god”, made by you… how do you pretend that we believe in what you say?
            6.- And finally, tell us what happened in your life that you are very “Blind”.

            • Hi Freddy,

              1) Because I think He probably doesn’t exist, but I’m open to the possibility.
              2) I’ve seen too many that say they are suffering, yes.
              3) Freedom does not require evil to exist; Adam was able to exercise free will in the absence of evil (in the garden of Eden) as was Satan who reveled against God.
              4) You are free to answer any of them. If you can provide a reasonable answer, I will be happy to change my opinion.
              5) I’m sorry, I don’t understand the question.
              6) Why do you assume that it is I who am blind and not you? Please show me where I am in error, otherwise I must assume it is you who are blinded by religion, as many others are.

  26. sandy says:

    hmmmm, 500 questions – I am sorta in the same boat with all my own questions, but have you ever checked out of of the near death experience stories (NDE’s)? Don’t throe this under the bu yet, until you have… just throwin’ it out there – would like to know your thoughts on this…

    • Hi Sandy,

      Yep, I love NDEs, see questions 19 and 20.

      I spent a couple years in an NDE craze, reading books about both positive and negative NDEs. They really inspired me… for a bit. But then, there were the inconsistencies with the stories, clear culturally-inspired differences, the inability for anyone to ever see a sign or picture posted above the ER bed, the ability for people to recreate the experience through drugs, magnets, and other methods. Eventually I had to file it under “pseudo-science.” It’s a bit like the UFO phenomenon: long on stories, short on evidence.

      There is still some ongoing research looking into whether or not people can actually see signs as they float above their hospital beds, and I’m willing to accept the idea if science can repeatedly and reliably demonstrate it, but I have serious doubts. :-)

      • Tina Mac says:


  27. Tina Mac says:

    Sandy, Why would u ask 500 questions about near death experiences, it is predictable what he is going to say. He does not believe in the spirtual world, all of his comments will be negative so you need someone that sees the glass half full. Or go to near death experience proof. com

    • Tina’s right, you shouldn’t listen to just me, I may be wrong. You should study all the available evidence for yourself, and make up your own mind. (But I would like to think I’m a little less biased than a site like “NDEproof.com” would be). :-)

  28. Mark P. says:

    Dear 500Q,
    Bottom line in all of this for me: I would love to take the first step of opening my mind up for “faith” and a “believer” of all that is written in the bible.I was raised in a Christian church. I admire people that have faith to get them through the most horrific experiences we face on earth. The death of your own child being the worst. However, like you, until this one topic is explained to a point where I can wrap my brain around it, even a little, I will remain in the category of, “I have only THREE questions”: Why does a bus full of children, on the way to bible camp, get swept away and death occurs to worship God? Was it all their time to go? If it was the work of Satan and God created him, how can he (God) be “perfect”?

    I have read all here and find it very interesting. At first I thought I came across just another atheist’s website, but I’m glad I read on.

    • Hi Mark, thanks for reading.

      I think maybe we hear more about those kinds of bus accidents because it makes for interesting news; it makes us wonder how God could allow such a thing. Here these kids are trying to serve God… and He kills them! How rude!

      I don’t think it was their time, I think these buses are often driven by old men or under-qualified volunteers. Maybe God is trying to tell them to hire a professional? :-/

      • Mark P. says:

        What about tornadoes that hit churches full of people and resulting in death, why? Anyone out there? I’m not here because I am trying to disprove faith, I want to believe! (O.K., I’m at four questions now.) Long ago I asked my dad these questions and he referred me to the pastor..he couldn’t answer them either. I don’t need 100% proof, just something reconcilable.

        • Sure. And when the Black Plague hit, people also went to the church for answers. Why was God killing their families and children? What was God trying to say? But it wasn’t God, it was tiny bacteria from fleas.

          And when God struck churches in early America with lightning and burned them to the ground, what was He trying to tell us? The town would go on a witch hunt for whomever cursed the church. But it wasn’t a witch, the lightning was just trying to ground, and the steeples were the tallest objects in the area.

          So often we take these really difficult questions and try to frame them in the context of God, only to find out later that God didn’t seem to have anything to do with it, it was just a random act of nature. Maybe what we should be asking “What does nature want? What is nature trying to tell us?”

          I’m not trying to disprove faith, either, only find out what’s reasonable and logically defensible. If it is God, then I will defend Him and I have no problem believing in Him. The truth is the truth, whether we accept it or not.

  29. Mark P. says:

    “I’m not trying to disprove faith, either, only find out what’s reasonable and logically defensible.” Initially, I thought so, but after reading all of this, I think you are in the same boat with me. As you said, “Give me a sign! Levitate a penny and I will believe forever”, so to speak. That’s what I am waiting for. Not gonna happen? At least have people come into my life to explain my death questions with some palpability? That’s why I am here. And after reading many articulate answers from believers, they really can’t answer the trap. Mainly, if it is the work of Satan, why did God create this fallen angel if so perfect? Why do people, young and old alike, die in groups? It just goes round and round.

    If I may? I think you want to believe too. How great it would be to let yourself go and truly understand that their is a higher power that has a reason for everything that occurs. I know I would handle life so much easier if I had that. That’s why I mentioned earlier my admiration for people that do. My daughter has found it. Problem is, you and I know we have to TRULY believe, if he exists, we cannot fake it.

    Have you found anything within this blog that has slightly changed your mind and got you to think differently? I can never bring myself to deny his existence. Too scared and open for possibilities.Thanks.

    • Oh sure, who wouldn’t want to believe? I think it’s a huge misconception that non-believers just want to “do their own thing” and “sin without consequences.” The idea of eternal bliss is certainly better than a bunch of nothing, or risking eternal damnation for no good reason.

      “Have you found anything within this blog that has slightly changed your mind and got you to think differently? I can never bring myself to deny his existence. Too scared and open for possibilities.”

      Good question. Personally, it took me about 2 years before I could ponder the idea that Jesus may not be the Messiah (which felt blasphemous). Frankly, I don’t see how any serious Christian ever manages to escape the grasp of religion, I found it very difficult.

      I don’t deny God’s existence, but if anything, researching these questions has made the hypothesis seem far less plausible. If God does exist, He has definitely gone well out of His way to hide it. For example, He didn’t HAVE to design all plant and animal DNA to appear related. Had He NOT done this, His work would’ve been far more obvious. Like someone once said “The invisible and the non-existent look a lot alike.”

      I keep waiting to turn over that one rock that makes me say “OMG! God exists!” And every now and then I stumble upon something that gives me a brief spark of hope for a moment or two, but nothing that has ever lasted.

      But, if I had to put my best food forward, I would say life is too complex to happen by chance alone, but that would also apply to God. If we can reason that God can exist without cause, then it’s just as reasonable that we exist without cause.

      But I’d ask you the same question, if you had to put your best foot forward and defend the existence of God, what’s your go-to defense?

      • Mark P. says:

        You asked, “But I’d ask you the same question, if you had to put your best foot forward and defend the existence of God, what’s your go-to defense?”. My answer: ” That’s what I would love to find! Ability to defend His existence with substance and the rest faith”.

        As I explained to a friend: Death is the most important topic of comprehending God in my life of not what happens after, but why in groups,age and timing? It is the cruelest act that can happen, losing a child and have them precede you in death, as is part of this topic.Why shall I devote myself to His teachings when people that have done so for years get caught in biblical contradictions and revert to “just believing”? Nonsensical stuff. Then I’m being told that maybe it’s not for me to comprehend? Same thing I told my kids when they started doubting Santa. All in a corner and give the boiler plate answer.Get me past this first step and I will defend and devote til’ my last breath. I don’t need 100% proof.

      • Jim says:

        500Q, I’m not sure you are really searching for a reason to believe, looks more like reasons not to, however, I will weigh in anyway…
        I think the issue needs to be brought to complete fruition. Let’s start with Adam and Eve. God created them in His own likeness. What does this mean? Perhaps Adam had a sense of right and wrong, God certainly does. I believe Adam certainly had a free will to make decisions as he made a very bad one. If he did not have a free will, God has really not accomplished anything as Adam would be forced to do anything God desires (i.e. worship, love, fellowship etc) I believe God’s desire is for man to do that of his own volition, then it is really worth something. He placed them in Eden and basically gave them one command: Do not eat…or you will surely die.
        The Bible does not say if He told them this numerous times but it is evident Eve understood the command. They chose to eat. I believe you have stated earlier in this thread that it is not “fair” to hold Adam accountable for he doesn’t have the wherewithal to comprehend the ramifications of this. Maybe so, but he did understand the command and being in the presence of God probably should have given him ample reason to take it very seriously.
        Now that sin has entered the world by Adam’s disobedience, a chain of events has been set in motion. Evil and suffering being part of it as man does what is right in his own eyes, sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes not.
        The focus of this discussion has mostly centered on why God does not do something about children’s suffering. Let’s take the example of the child tortured by the adult. Let’s have God intervene and prevent it, But why stop there? Is that child suffering more than the starving one in Africa? God should intervene there as well if He is fair. Is the African child worth more than the American teenager killed by a drunk driver? Why just a teenager, why not an adult? Why are adults, teens and children allowed to get diseases and die? Dying is a painful thing for everyone after all. Why does God not intervene in all these? If he is “love” he should. Or should He?
        Back to Adam, sin has entered the world and poisoned it. God has allowed it as the “cost” of free will. If he intervenes at every point of suffering, he basically eradicates it. “That’s fine you say, He should! “ If he eradicates it altogether, He has gone against His own command as now there is no ramification for the original transgression. Also, He now effectively has also eradicated man’s free will as man cannot do anything God does not approve of. God will always fix it or prevent it to make sure there is no suffering. Man becomes fat, dumb and happy and in a sense has no need for God (so he thinks).
        Now God is back to where He started. All He has created is a being that can only do whatever HE wants. The creation cannot love Him for who He is out of its own resources. Don’t we all want to be loved voluntarily? Not to mention, coming to earth in human form (Jesus) and redeeming mankind shows His love also. He did not leave us in a hopeless state.
        I suspect you will find reasons to disagree, as my reasoning I’m sure is not flawless and I have not addressed all 500 reasons you don’t believe. Unfortunately, I think even if I did, you would come up with 501.

        • Hi Jim,

          Thanks for joining in on the fun. ;-) You did a fine job reasoning, here are my thoughts on the subject… (feel free to disagree, my logic may also be flawed)… :-)

          The way I see it, Adam’s free will in Eden is a bit of a catch 22. If we say Adam DIDN’T have free will, then it was NOT his choice to sin. But if we say he DID have free will, then it proves free will can exist without the need for pain and suffering.

          You might ask, “Well then, what about the need to punish Adam?” I’m glad you asked!

          First, God may wish to punish Adam, but that’s between Adam and God. God could’ve caused Adam to (eventually) die, and then tortured him forever in hell. Additional pain and suffering were of no added benefit to his children, and only forced them to suffer for crimes they had not yet committed. Able, for example, loved God and may have never eaten the fruit. It would’ve been far more reasonable for God to have left us in Eden, and given us all the same test Adam was given.

          Second, there’s also a catch 22 when it comes to punishing Adam for his sins. If Adam was always under the threat of death for disobeying God, then Adam never truly had the free will to love God, it was always “Love me, or die.” True love isn’t like that. True love says, “I’d like it if you’d love me, but I can’t force you to, so if you don’t there won’t be any consequences. I’m not going to do anything crazy like give your children tuberculosis or torture you forever.” The only way God could receive genuine love and adoration is for Him to remove any threat of punishment for NOT loving Him.

          Finally, if Adam DID understand the consequences, and did it anyway, I can’t imagine he was very smart, or that God would even want the adoration of such a moron.

          Have a nice day! :-)

  30. Mark P. says:

    Oh,and additionally,at the same time I am told, “To pray for protection for my family?” What’s the point? If it is ,”their time to go, it’s their time”. Never could understand that either. I’m sure plenty of people that were in those churches that perished did that frequently.

  31. Mark P. says:

    lol…no, I’m done. Need to get past “death” part to go further.

  32. sandy says:

    500, what is your opinion or belief of how “man” came to be? I can’t help but notice that even today (referring to evolution), “man” starts out as as baby, who needs to be taken care of by an adult, or else “he” will perish… – – so, where did the adult come from? It’s the old “chicken or the egg”? question…

    • Well, evolution is definitely a possibility. I don’t think all creatures always cared for their young, at least in the very beginning. But since the offspring of protective parents were more likely to survive, evolution began selecting for such parental traits. But it didn’t happen overnight.

      As for we humans, some scientists believe that part of what makes us so unique may be our unusually long childhoods (compared to the rest of the animal kingdom). But I don’t think it was always this way, a few million years ago our childhoods were probably much shorter.

  33. sandy says:

    Have you entertained Dr. Hovind’s theory?

  34. sandy says:

    OK, back to NDE’s – I found this intriguing – an excerpt from Howard Storm’s NDE: “When the review was finished they asked, “Do you want to ask any questions?” and I had a million questions.

    I asked, for example, “What about the Bible?”

    They responded, “What about it?”

    I asked if it was true, and they said it was. Asking them why it was that when I tried to read it, all I saw were contradictions, they took me back to my life’s review again – something that I had overlooked. They showed me, for the few times I had opened the Bible, that I had read it with the idea of finding contradictions and problems. I was trying to prove to myself that it wasn’t worth reading.

    I observed to them that the Bible wasn’t clear to me. It didn’t make sense. They told me that it contained spiritual truth, and that I had to read it spiritually in order to understand it. It should be read prayerfully. My friends informed me that it was not like other books. They also told me, and I later found out this was true, that when you read it prayerfully, it talks to you. It reveals itself to you. And you don’t have to work at it anymore.

    My friends answered lots of questions in funny ways. They really knew the whole tone of what I asked them, even before I got the questions out. When I thought of questions in my head, they really understood them.

    I asked them, for example, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like, “Presbyterians.” I figured these guys were all Christians.

    The answer I got was, “The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God.”

    • Jesus also spoke in parables, with the idea that only the “real” believers, or those whom the Holy Spirit was with, would be able to decipher the truth behind them. The ears of the unbelievers would always be hearing, but never understanding.

      Is this really true? Or is it just confirmation bias – we begin seeing because we really want to believe. Just like with the writings of Nostradamus, we’re drawn to these mysterious parables, that challenge us to solve their riddles. But there are at least a few possible problems with this…

      1) There are former Christians, like pastor John Loftus, who believe for many years but still turn away.
      2) There’s no longer much need for special spiritual interpretation, since people with this “special talent” have been translating the Bible’s mysteries for centuries.
      3) People with this “special talent” often disagree about what the Bible is saying… but why would the Holy Spirit disagree with itself?

      I did read Howard Storm’s book. If I recall, at the end, he talks about a vision of the future, where people make plants grow in a matter of minutes just using the power of their mind. So… ya. Not saying he’s nuts, but it certainly doesn’t help is credibility any.

      I’ve also heard interesting stories from people on drugs, who believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that what happened to them was real. One college student, for example, swore she could separate from her body while on drugs, she was certain of it… until she performed some simple tests and realized she really couldn’t. In other words, her brain lied to her about being able to leave her body, and she was unable to determine it was a lie. The mind is an amazing thing.

      Again — there are so many amazing stories: people get abducted by aliens, fly through time and space, are told they’re messiahs or prophets, they meet angles and demons, elves and fairies, living and dead relatives, etc. So many stories, so little evidence.

  35. Pingback: More on “A Sinner Comes Around” « JACKBLAIRDAILY

  36. Word says:

    Exodus 20:5
    …for I, the Lord ypir God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”

    It’s got nothin to do with the children, it’s the punishment God promised on the disobedience of great-gradndfathers!

    Romans 9:20

    “…but shall what is formed say to him who formed it, why did make me like this?

    Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use??

    Please read down Romans 9

    And may the mighty God have mercy on all those doubt. Amen

    • Hi Word,

      The Bible ALSO teaches that it is wrong to punish children for the sins of their fathers…

      Deuteronomy 24:16 – “Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.”

      Ezekiel 18:20 – “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

      As for the potter, I would say no, he most certainly does not have the right to do whatever he chooses. Allow me one example…

      Imagine a future scientist designs a completely new form of life, unlike anything that has ever existed. He gives it intelligence beyond man’s, and the ability to experience pain beyond what humans can suffer. Now, imagine he chooses to strap them down and inflict unimaginable pain and suffering upon them day and night. If you were to witness their cries and suffering, would you say “This is acceptable, for He has created them, and he may do with them as he wishes”? Or would you say “I find this unethical, for he has given them life without their consent, and now tortures them when they clearly do not wish to be tortured”?

  37. Lisa says:

    Thank you so much for this article Thank you!!!!!! Again Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

  38. Mark P. says:

    500Q:I moved this correspondence over to the appropriate topic page. Hope you don’t mind! :-)

    With all due respect to 500Q,: Superdave, I came across this site the other day after typing in the question in a search engine, “Why does God allow children to die?” After exploring this site, I have found your posts as intellectually stimulating as the moderator here; Very articulate and well thought out argumentation. Me, I am looking for my “revelation”. Instead of re-posting what I have written in question 17: “Why does God allow Children to suffer and die?”, would you be so kind to visit that topic and respond to my thoughts? Would like to hear your explanation on this matter. It is the sticking point that has always kept me from truly believing. No one, including Christians, with many years of thought and information, can provide the least bit of a “small” logical answer on this topic,i.e. “What is the point of praying for….if?..etc…

    Hope you are still visiting here and view this message. Maybe God can direct you to it if not? : -) And 500Q, thanks again for creating this blog for people like me without heavy handedness of your beliefs and some humor. Best I’ve ever come across. The multitude of views given is satisfying to say the least.

    October 22, 2012 at 3:13 PM

    Hi Mark – I’m really glad you posted this question, because I know there are so many people out there who struggle with this issue. I have a daughter myself, and when she was very young I occasionally had dreams that something terrible happened to her and I’d wake in the middle of the night terrified that the dream was real and that I’d lost her. That’s the closest I’ve been to losing a child, and it’s much closer than I ever want to be to that particular nightmare. I can’t imagine the pain parents who have actually lost a child have to go through, but I have a sense of what it would be like.

    The short answer to your question, for me at least, is that I don’t think God allows children to die – I think He created our complex universe to work in a certain way, and that universe has rules and laws and events that sometimes result in what we perceive as bad things. One of those bad things is that children, being human beings who are subject to all the weaknesses, risks and dangers that we all live with, sometimes die before they get a chance to grow up. Part of living is dying – that’s one of the fundamental rules. When a child dies, it seems unfair to us, whatever the cause. But death is inevitable for us all, and being born into this world means that eventually, at some time, we’re going to die. I think that God has little, if not nothing, to do with how or when that happens – He allows us to live and die according to the rules of our universe rather than intervening in the working of that universe.

    The longer answer has to do with why He would do that. If God is omnipotent, He knows a child will die before it happens. He has the power to stop it, to change it. Why wouldn’t he do that and save a child from some horrible fate, if he could do it?

    It’s really a simple answer – because that’s how the universe works. If God had to intervene every time the universe did what it does, it wouldn’t be a perfect system. If it weren’t a perfect system, God wouldn’t be perfect – a perfectly good God could not create an imperfect system. It’s a matter of perspective – God knows what is good and right, and we do not. We cannot see what the effect of any one event will be in the future. We look at an event like the death of a child from our own narrow, personal, human perspectives.

    Even when we try to reason out a long-term benefit of a tragedy like the death of a child, and even when we’re not close to that child, we can’t really come up with much. When we are close to the child it’s even harder to do. That’s part of what we are too – loss is personal to us, any long-term good is not. Most of us, maybe all of us, would choose to keep our children safe and forsake whatever good may be involved in the death of our own child. Especially when the only good we can come up with is that part of living in this universe is that children sometimes die, and that our reality would be somehow less if that weren’t the case.

    Of course, it may be that God does in fact intervene and save children sometimes. Maybe many more children would die than do if he didn’t, and we cannot know when he does that because we can’t know what would have happened but for His intervention. But I think that would mean that He’s there making decisions and changing the operation of His universe on some occasions and not on others. That’s inconsistent with a conception of the universe as a “perfect” system, a system that makes life possible, and that makes something as incredible and as sublime as Man possible.

    I believe that God created us to stand on our own – we are free to exist freely. That freedom carries responsibilities to make choices that keep us safe. We’re ultimately subject to the rules of the universe. We can’t always prevent every danger, but we have the right, and the responsibility, to decide for ourselves the best way to try to do it. That God does not intervene is a gift to us, not a burden upon us. It’s a gift because that’s what true freedom is.

    How do I know any of this? I don’t “know” it – I simply believe it. I have faith in God, and therefore I have faith that what happens in this reality we live in, good or bad, must be right. To the small degree that we can apply our logic to a concept like God and His Creation (and it’s really a small degree), the only explanation that makes sense to me is that God has given us a reality that works in a certain way. Part of that reality is that children sometimes die. Human beings sometimes do terrible things that cause them to die. Diseases take them, they starve, they succumb to accidents.

    But that’s not God acting, or not acting – that’s the way our reality works. If a child dies through human action, or inaction, that’s not God, that’s human beings causing the result. That’s our responsibility, and putting it on God is simply shifting that responsibility. If a child dies through natural causes like disease or accident, that’s the way our universe works. We don’t like it, it hurts us when we must live with tragedy – but that is what freedom is. We have the responsibility to use the gifts God gave us to make our reality better, to use our intellect and our drive to make the bad things that happen less likely, less frequent, less severe.

    The atheist might say, “well, a perfect God would not create a universe that works that way.” But that’s no different than a believer saying what I’m saying. They’re both ultimate conclusions about the existence of God. There is no way for human beings to fully conceive of the existence of God through our intellect – and we can’t figure out why a perfect God would create a universe that works like ours does. We have to either believe that He did, and that He is right in His Creation, or not believe at all.

    My experience has led me to the former – I believe God created us, the universe, and the way it all works – and that whether I can understand it or not, it’s a perfect universe. I haven’t always believed these things, and I have to work sometimes to accept things that happen in life as part of a perfect plan. But I would rather accept that, and – knowing that God has given me the freedom to make my own decisions about the course of my life – take responsibility for shaping my reality in the best way I can, than to believe that we are just a random development of a random universe, and therefore all alone in a chaotic, dangerous, empty existence.

    Sometimes I think that God should do more for me, or for those that experience tragedy. But then I think that if He did, we wouldn’t truly be free – if God was in the background holding our hands and keeping us safe from the universe, and from ourselves, we wouldn’t take responsibility for ourselves. We wouldn’t work hard to take care of each other. We’d sit back, let life happen to us rather than work to develop ourselves, and take care of ourselves and each other. We’d blame God when bad things happen, rather than looking at ourselves and trying to find ways to make things better. When I think like that I can start to see why a perfect God would create a universe like ours.

    If those bad dreams I used to have about my daughter ever actualized, it would be hard for me to think like that. It would take me a long time after such a loss to accept it. But I would try – maybe not at first, maybe not for a long time, but I like to believe that eventually I would. I love to believe that my daughter, too, has that gift – that when and if tragedy happens to her one day, and she has to live through it, that she will have the gift of freedom and will understand it enough to try to understand that she has the freedom and the power to overcome that tragedy. I would want her to know that God hasn’t abandoned her because something bad has happened, but that He’s there with her, to support her through the loss and the pain she’s experiencing, and that His love is there for her.

    It’s a lot easier for me to say all of this than for a parent that’s lost a child, obviously – and I hope I never have to experience it myself. I hope my daughter never does, either. My task, though, is to do everything in my power to prevent it from ever happening, and to teach myself and my daughter to keep our faith in the face of it if and when it does happen. My task is to believe that God is with us whatever happens, and that His love will be there for us to carry us through. -Jack

    Wow, Jack! I have to say, that was the most reasonable and rational answer I have ever heard. Have talked to people of the church that couldn’t articulate what you have written. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would like to ask some follow up questions concerning this topic, but unfortunately, do not have the time right now (my kids). I just wanted to write a quick “thanks” and will write back within a few days.

    Regards- Mark

    Mark P. said this on October 23, 2012 at 3:22 am | Reply

    Sorry, took me longer to get back to you than anticipated. Such as life. Okay, a few comments and questions. :

    From the theme of your earlier response to me, you basically are proposing that: God created the perfect universe and steps back “most” of the time and does not interfere with how it unfolds, i.e. death,etc… Reasons? We can only comprehend what our human brain allows us. Moreover, that God gives us the power to make certain decisions to protect ourselves and our children; We can choose to make the right choices, or throw caution to the wind and suffer the consequences…Hopefully, I summarized your thoughts adequately!

    Okay, as I’ve said, what you have written sounds reasonable, but I have one central question.If God steps back and lets the universe play out destiny; What is the point of prayer?

    What is the point of praying for “anything” if God steps back and observes? This is the circle that always gets me stuck. Prayer is the focal point of Christianity and yet, if God is giving us this “freedom” to “make our own bed” in the universe, then deductively prayer is futile. I can’t reconcile how you can have both. Furthermore, if especially children,( and this is THE most important quandary for me ) are in route to a church for the purpose of learning about God and are wiped out by a drunk driver, where is divine intervention when needed? Wouldn’t those children be safe at home if their parents had not “chose” to go to church that day? Why does God sometimes step in? If he steps in only once and saves one child, why not others when consequences of suffering and death are there? Especially in groups.Unjust, beyond comprehension.

    Jack, again, I want to believe! I want to get my cup just a fraction filled and fill the rest with faith. But, as reasonable and somewhat rational as your response was, there are “burning questions”. If I am simply just to believe and not get through the contradictions, it’s hard for me to move forward. Thanks for your blog and all the time you spend responding. Your thoughts are appreciated!

    Regards – Mark

  39. Mark P. says:

    NOTE!: Want to correct statement, “Prayer is the focal point of Christianity”. Of course, God and Jesus, as our “Lord and Savior”, is the focal point of Christianity. Meant that “prayer” is a “integral part” of Christian faith. Sorry! :-)

  40. Anonymous says:

    I understand the difficulty with this the loss of or suffering of any child is a terrible thing. Ultimately a child that loses there life will spend eternity in paradise. God turns something good out of every evil thing whether we see it every time or not.

  41. David says:

    I’ve read this whole article looking for an answer to my daughters suffering and what the author overlooked completely is the fact that the Bible teaches that because we are descendants of Adam, we are all born into sin. We inherited a sinful, diseased world from conception. This is why the Bible teaches that a person must be “born again” to have the life God intended. Adam is the bad tree and we as his descendants are the bad fruit. This means all life on the earth is cursed by Adam’s sin with the suffering and disease it brings. The only hope we have to reverse this curse is Jesus Christ who is the “good tree” and if we put our trust in him for salvation, the Bible teaches that we will be “born again” with Jesus as our spiritual ancestor rather than Adam. And since we are still here on the physical earth for a while longer, we will still be subject to the disease and evil of the physical world we inherited, but upon death we will begin eternity in the Heaven God intended for us, with Jesus Christ as our new ancestor. So in a sentence, children suffer because they are the product of two sinful adults, but God’s son suffered and died physically so that those who put their trust in Him could be born again in a sin and disease free world because their ancestor is not Adam, but the sin free son of God, Jesus Christ.

    • Mark p. says:

      Can I buy a vowel? That clears up the board there.

    • Hi David, thanks for writing.

      First and foremost, I’m sorry for whatever your daughter’s suffering through. As a parent myself, I can imagine nothing worse than watching my children suffer.

      Someone once said that death is the price we pay for living. I think we can extend that to suffering as well. I don’t believe there is necessarily any good or evil spirits, or ancient curses that cause us to suffer. I think that life comes to all of us with no guarantees. When each of us has children, we roll the dice, not knowing whether things will work out for them or not. In fact, I would advise anyone considering having children, that if you can’t accept the possibility that your children may suffer, then you shouldn’t have children. That may sound callous, but life is callous, and you have to be prepared for that possibility.

      Even though all parents must accept that risk on behalf of their children, I think the odds are pretty good that they will enjoy and appreciate life. (And even if they don’t, it won’t last long.) In other words, we shouldn’t beat ourselves up for bringing them into existence (unless there was a good reason not to). All you can do now is say “This is what sometimes happens, it’s no one’s fault, no one is to blame, we just have to push through it one minute at a time and do what we can to make things better.” And often times, positive things DO come out of suffering, (I’m mostly just opposed to God allowing gratuitous/unnecessary/unfair suffering… if He exists).

      But I understand the Adam argument as it comes up often. But let me ask you this, would you ever spank your daughter for a mistake YOU made? No? Why not? What about for a mistake your mother made? Your grandmother? Or your great-great-great-great grandmother?

      I’m not sure why we Christians automatically accept that it’s OKAY for us to be punished for someone else’s sin. Children should not be presumed guilty until proven innocent, they should not be made to suffer for doing nothing more than being born.

      It is Adam, and Adam alone, who should suffer for his own sin. If the story were true, and God were a fair and benevolent God, He would’ve left us in the Garden and given us the same deal He gave Adam. God could’ve easily punished Adam in the afterlife, there was no reason to make him suffer in both worlds. And if Adam had the free will to accept or reject God in Eden, then adding additional suffering to our experience is pointless — we just don’t need it. It’s as if God is saying “Your great-grandfather Adam was a dick, so I’m making you and your children suffer for it,” which is just absurd.

      • Santa Cause says:

        500 Q, I’ve got a couple of comments on your comment to David:

        1. You say “In fact, I would advise anyone considering having children, that if you can’t accept the possibility that your children may suffer, then you shouldn’t have children.” yet you criticize God for making man BECAUSE it would entail suffering.

        Did you refuse to father any children because of the possibility of their facing suffering and you suffering as well along with them?

        2. Adam, when he disobeyed God’s Word to not eat of the tree, surrendered to Satan and the realm of earth is now Satan’s kingdom. God is the ruler in the kingdoms of men, yes, but its still Satan’s kingdom, along with all Adam’s sin-corrupted DNA. However, Adam’s progeny have a choice and can choose to change their DNA and their kingdom allegiance and, therefore, not have to pay for the sins of Adam if they will no longer be subjecting themselves to the Lordship of Satan. That is ground they will have to earnestly fight to hold on to as long as they are still mortals, but divine help is always there for that.

        • Hi Santa,

          1) My position on this has changed over the years, as I’ve learned more and had more time to ponder this question. I eventually concluded that if it was wrong for God to create man (because of man’s potential to suffer), than yes, it is likewise theoretically wrong for humans to create other humans, because of the potential for suffering.

          But ethically speaking, if there is no God, at worst, a child will only suffer for ONE lifetime (and should their suffering be unbearable, death is always an option). Creating life is never a theoretically sound choice, but there’s a good chance they will enjoy their existence, and if not, it will be over soon enough.

          But if God DOES exist, and he creates humans who may suffer ETERNALLY, then by all means, God’s decision to create man is infinitely more cruel than our decision to create children.

          2) I don’t really believe in talking snakes and magic trees anymore, but assuming it was all true, and the creator is a moral God, I would argue that it was morally wrong for him to allow Satan to punish innocent children for the sins of their parents.

          Do you, Santa, deliver coal to upright children who just happen to have rotten parents? I think that would be a pretty shitty thing to do, don’t you?

          It is morally wrong to make the innocent suffer for the sins of others. (Yes, even in the case of Jesus. People sin, and they should receive just punishment for their sins. But not hell, because that isn’t a just punishment.)


        • kats says:

          There was no Adam and Eve, so you are proceeding from a false premise.

  42. Anonymous says:

    You talk like an unbeliever.Our present understanding is very limited indeed. The fact is that we lack proper understand of events in this polluted world. Satan is the god of this world. The wickedness that is going on is monumental. It is first perpetuated in the spiritual covens of whichraft and co before they manifest in the physical. God is love and with Him there is no evil at all. Think for a moment about Jesus Christ. Imagine the Status and position of Jesus spiritually yet He had to take the form of human being and came to this world to suffer and die for our redemption from sin and satan. He did not deny Stan’s lordship of the present world. The bible says many are the afflictions of the righteouse and they are delivered from them all. Satan is the author of suffering in the world.

    • Howdy Anonymous, leaning heavily towards doubt, that’s for sure.

      I don’t really see God living in this world as a huge sacrifice. I mean, really, it’s the least He could do. You shouldn’t make others to do what you’re not willing to do yourself.

      And while being crucified doesn’t sound very pleasant, I’d GLADLY do it if I could save mankind. Heck, I’d do it if it only meant a cure for cancer or hunger. But being crucified is nothing compared to spending an eternity in hell, now THOSE people really suffer (and for just their own sins!). Perhaps Jesus should spend eternity in hell for our sins, that seems like it would be a more appropriate substitution, anyway. :-/

    • Mark P. says:

      Hey Anon., So it’s Satan that allows children, to “suffer and die”? Not God?

    • John c says:

      Once again, a fool blames satan for evil perpetrated by men, its a cop out of our collective responsibility,there is no god or satan, its chance that bad things happen, but when people cause bad things to happen deliberately, its their own motivation, usualy greed,If there was any concious force for good that had any power,he would be moraly obligated to prevent harm, the fact that he does not means, he either does not exist, or has no power,in which case he is irrelevant, or he deliberately allows what he could stop, in which case he is evil.I refuse to worship an irrelevance, or an evil being, end of story.If you do worship a god who allows what he could prevent, you bare condoning evil, out of fear, your a worm, grovelling.

  43. John says:

    My biggest, baddest analogy here is the analogy of the parents and the teenager. The teenager lives at home, the teenager is taken care of by mom and dad. Mom and dad tell the teenager “Now son, we can’t control you, but we’d really like for you to not have sex.” Of course the erm…snake…tells the teenager that sex is pretty good, and that mom and dad seem to enjoy it, so why shouldn’t you? The teenager then has all the sex he wants and before he knows it, he wasn’t careful and he gets a girl pregnant. He then has to get a job, find insurance, buy a car, finish school, keep a relationship with his child, and find a way to start saving for college. These things strain his parental abilities. The parents knew these things, and even warned the teenager, but the teenager insisted on following his own way. The child out of this (I’m not saying children are a malady fyi) is therefore going to suffer for the mistakes of the father, possibly psychologically, socially, or even physically. Not because the child is to blame, but because the father was sinful. The socioeconomic status of the single parent is not so high, so even further generations down the line might suffer. Yet despite that, the parents of the teenager are willing to take care of the child. They also recognize the place the teenager has in his son’s life however, and are there primarily as moral compasses. The world is an indifferent place you see, but the one complete and total opposite of indifference is either love, or hatred. God would occupy the love spot, and thus Satan batting for hatred. I know it’s probably not the best metaphor, but it covers some of the main bases. So uh….yeah, I guess I’m saying that children suffering is not because of an indifferent God, but because of an indifferent everybody else. I’m personally against blaming God if you don’t believe in him and I appreciate that you’re at least not a hypocrite in that respect Mr. 500Q. (P.S. I used to be a Pentecostal too, but I got the sense that they’ve got a pickle up their collective rear about something)

    • Hi John, that was interesting.

      I’m not exactly sure I got the metaphor, but couldn’t the child have been spared all of this by God preventing the pregnancy? In fact, it seems God could prevent a lot of unnecessary suffering by preventing all unwanted pregnancies, and even preventing people from getting pregnant who did not meet God’s gold standard for qualified parents.

      But mostly I’d say that we should all still be in Eden. If that were the case, even if the son made a mistake, the only evil the child would suffer would be evil coming from other people (if that was even allowed by God).

  44. egozzini says:

    Either way we take this debate, it’s just that. Notwithstanding that some of the posts here of the supporters of God show a state of inability to ‘think rationally’ that can only be the result of extensive and accepted brainwashing, the proof is in the pudding. We have a world here to look at as The Proof of God Creation. If there is a God Creator of all this Evil worshiping is insane and evil in itself, as condoning this world for a better world ‘after’, which is as crazy since no one came back telling us it’s better on the other side. In fact the only thing everyone seems to agree about is ‘As Above so below’ does this imply in anyway “BETTER”?
    SO just the point of the kind of bet people are taking in supporting the AFTER and not the Here is interesting to say the least. If God was a bastard, should we follow in his footsteps? Someone who sends his son to be crucified for his mistakes, would normally be considered a cruel parent and would be denied access to his child, and why are we praising him for that, because he is GOD? An all knowing God, should have foreseen where this was going to end, we have 1 billion people starving, if God created everything, WHO created EVIL? And if he didn’t and Evil just came to be without his knowledge while he was not looking, why is he a God? So, whatever our origin, we are Here now, the point of God or not God is dangerous as it can be used to justify why we don’t need to change (God Believers) or why we can’t change (God Blamers), and yet the change required is self evident. We can support a world that works for All, F O R G E T God, he was either a psychopath, or he died just before EVIL was born, let’s say we can’t count on him anymore for the good or the bad, so consider instead standing up for Change and a Solution that can guarantee a Dignified Life for All. I have found one, it’s called Equal Money, that will be the beginning of a New World where benevolent Creators (yes that’s would be us) begint to live the words of Jesus as in sharing equally and in giving each other what we would like to receive for ourselves, which is Not Prayers, as they have NOT been feeding the hungry or healing the sick so far, but access to all earth resources Equal for All, and that will include best Healthcare, best nutrition, the best life everyone can wish for, for themselves and others, One and Equal. Cast your vote for Life @ Equal Money

  45. Mark P. says:

    I guess “free will” reins again in Connecticut. “Free will” removed from kids and others. Just gut wrenching. So hard to comprehend. Prayer is worthless.

  46. P. Smith says:

    Although I respect the fact that the majority of people wouldn’t know the answers to these questions, it certainly challenges my temperance when I hear someone say “it’s simply God’s will”. If there is “higher reasoning” behind seemingly natural occurrences and this reasoning can be better understood through the teachings of the Bible, and the teachings of the bible are as they are purported to be, self-evident, How is it that there could be such bitter confusion and repulsion felt by so many towards them? This is the way I feel when I hear it said that suffering is necessary because it builds character. I wonder how God could answer for the innocent children constantly suffering of malnutrition in small villages the majority of people will never hear see or speak of and provide an detailed explanation as to why that child’s suffering was NECESSARY. Im interested in God’s explanation to the child who dies of starvation how his suffering had purpose and meaning, how it helped build character for his grieving loved ones and thus quietly made the world a better place. It is not a personal ambition of mine nor does it give me any satisfaction at all to try to diminish the hopes and dreams of any one who believes in something they feel holds truth for them. Human beings will believe almost anything out of fear, and perhaps the greatest fear of any mortal being would be the fear of death. The idea of a loving and just God creates meaningful purpose for people as well as hope for everlasting life. There is no way of blaming or ridiculing anyone for wanting to believe in such a reality, however, I strongly believe that the power and potential religion has been able to have over people’s lives individually, collectively and as a whole is alarming to say the least. Although we typically associate religious martyrdom and the negative aspects of religious faith with that of Islam, I think we should be wary of any institution that has the ability to separate or divide human beings against each other or themselves. Religion is most capable of this. Just think about the number of people who have sacrificed themselves in the name of religion. Let’s assume they didn’t all have mental health problems but had been manipulated into believing they were serving an honorable service to an omnipotent God which allegedly exists outside of their comprehension, but can be felt in spirit. Man’s history has shown itself to be one of survival. He will do anything to survive, and has thus made it this far. The skeletons of early man are robust due to the physically demanding requirements for survival. Modern skeletons are more slender as we can now depend much more on technology as opposed to self-reliance. Personally, I can’t be sure that there isn’t a supernatural, nor a God who created all existence and perhaps even intended for life to be permitted. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I can’t say for certain that a God doesn’t exist because I don’t agree with his rules, however a loving personal God is a stretch. I worry a lot less about the afterlife than the present life therefore, I worry a lot less about God than I do religion.

  47. kiranirvanna says:

    I’m reading a lot of these comments by those who are religious. I cannot imagine that if they read the post from start to finish that they actually let a single word of it permeate their brains. I cannot imagine anyone who was a decent human being reading this, absorbing it, understanding it, and still being able to spout claims of belief.

    Okay, maybe a single word or two. I’ll be fair, but certainly not much more than that.

  48. Monty says:

    I would like to start by saying that I have 2 kids, and I sincerely believe that there is no grief greater than seeing children in pain. My heart sincerely goes out to all parents who have seen their children suffer, or have lost a child.. I can’t begin to imagine how difficult it must be on them..

    What I am about to write is not my justification for why such unfair treatment is meted out to children, or people in general. It is just the reasoning given to us in my religion..

    I know this Blog is basically about Christianity, but I would like to give a Hindu (my religion) take on this.. As Hindu’s, we believe that our past lives affect our present life, and our present life will affect our future Lives. Basically, the soul does not die, it just leaves the body when we die.

    The basic idea of our soul coming back and taking residence in a body from life to life, is to improve the soul, until it is finally pure, and attains Moksh (Nirvana). The soul needs to take human form, because the soul can’t feel the trauma’s of negative emotions like hatred, anger, selfishness etc, which a human body can.

    So, if a child has cancer, or a women is raped, a Hindu, after getting over the sadness of the situation, and feeling grief for the child and the women, will in all probability feel it is because of some past life sins, and now that the soul has paid, the next life will be better.. (again, this is not my justification, but a Hindu belief).

    The only way to reduce the number of grief striken lives you will have, until you attain Moksh, is if you make a genuine effort to become a compassionate, caring and a giving human being. Not just by giving money to a charity, but to genuinely feel for other human beings (not just the less fortunate), from the bottom of your heart. How can you see an elderly lady wanting to cross a road, and not help her, even if it means you will be 5 minutes late for that meeting ??? How can you not ask the name of the waiter serving you in a Restaurant, just to make him feel that he is not a nobody ???

    Also, I personally believe that it is very important for us to meet some not so good people in our lives, because it is easy to be good to good people.. The real test is if we can remain good human beings even when we meet people who test our patience and goodness… Similarly, it’s important for us to go through rough patches in our lives, to test our true character.

    Hindu’s also believe that everyone close to you in your present life, has some close connection to you in some past life. Your wife could have been your father.. or you could have been your mothers father etc.. and with each passing life, we have to pay our dues to the ones close to us. For example, my daughter may have been my mother in my past life, who took care of me, so in this life she has come as my daughter so that I can take care of her.. If you begin to believe this phenomina, you will take your relationships more seriously.. This can only be a good thing..

    The above believes are passed on to us by our parents, and our parents got it from theirs. So, if you ask me for proof, I have none.. But, I have read some books by Dr. Brian Weiss, a noted American Psychotherapist, and a scientist, who has written quite extensively on these issues. This leads me to believe that maybe there is some truth behind these believes…

    Take care of yourselves, and take care of people around you.

    • Thanks for that take Monty,

      I can certainly see how this would motivate people to care for others, but it can also backfire. For example, I once heard a story about a woman visiting India who saw a deformed child. She took pity on him and his mother responded by saying, “He must’ve done something really terrible in a past life to deserve that!”

      These beliefs can have both positive and negative consequences. Sure, this mother may feel obligated to care for her deformed child, but he will grow up thinking he has done something terrible and deserves to be punished, even when he has done nothing wrong.

      • Monty says:

        I feel these beliefs only give us some sort of an explaination as to why things happen.. This should not be used as an excuse or a reason not to take care of children or people who are not fortunate to have a normal life.. Besides, If a mother feels obligated to care for her child whether the child is deformed or not, she is not a mother at heart.

        I don’t think these children need our pity, they need our love. Huge difference.. Infact, if the mother truely believes that her child is deformed because he had done something terrible in a past life, she should introspect and think of what would happen to her in her next life, if she were not to genuinely love and take care of her deformed child.

        • Anonymous says:

          One of the reasons I see religions as inherently harmful, is that most of them at their core “blame the victim” which is disgusting really. It’s like saying the 8 year old boy must have done something so terrible that he DESERVED every second of the 10 hours being brutally raped, tortured, and killed.

          The only way religions really work, is by COMPLETELY destroying a person’s value, to make them out to be vile and WORTHLESS bags of meat, so the religion can then offer the “cure” when there never was a sickness to begin with!

          It’s snakeoil salesmanship at its most appalling level.

  49. Monty says:

    Just adding to my previous reply, if you look at my initial message, I have mentioned that Hindu’s also believe that people closely related to you in this life, were also related to you in a past life.. Maybe in a past life this mother was the deformed child of her present life’s child, and was taken care of. So, now it is her turn.. or maybe, if the mother does not take care of her deformed child in this life, she will come back in a future life as a deformed child, for the soul to be made to understand what a deformed child actually goes through.. and for the soul to learn that all human beings, whether deformed or otherwise, should be cared for with love and compassion..

  50. Anonymous says:

    you people are sick if you think god gives a shit about you

  51. John c says:

    The idea that any being would use the suffering of children to teach adults a lesson is repulsive,any such deity would be unworthy of praise, and a tyrant, on your knees on fear religious fools,the primative ,uneducated ,superstitious ramblings of 2000 years ago have been long superceded by freethinking people,science has rendered them obselete.Morality does not require religion, yet it claims a high ground on morality, the holy texts all contain swathes on the genocides and horrors perpetrated by a judgemental and arrogant god,its time for humanity to put their sky fairies in the same cubpoard as santa and the easter bunny, its all crap,a comfort blanket for the pathetic minded fools.

  52. DLW says:

    I think you have the answer in the bible and also on your board. I qoute from your message post:

    ‘The Bible also tells us that God Himself sometimes executes children, such as in Exodus 12:29, “At midnight the Lord killed every firstborn male in Egypt…”’

    Then if we take that lesson from God in what happened to the Egyptians and we then look further ahead in the new testament:

    ‘The Bible tells us to identify a tree by its fruit (Luke 6:44).’

    So questions posed:
    1. If we were to identify the Fruit of God concerning how he treated all children and people in egypt based on the pharaohs heart is he a good tree or bad tree?

    2. Since Jesus is the ‘Son of God’ and we are to believe his message to be true, then if we go to Luke 6:39,41,42: “He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?….Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?… How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

    Given those versus does that then mean God can’t judge a child killer since he himself killed children, and further more he shouldn’t be our leader since he too his blind?

    I can imagine this scenario:

    Child killer get executed on the electric chair and stands before God.
    God: You have sinned greatly and shall be punished…
    Killer: Umm. Remember Luke.
    God: Yeh. Was a good guy.
    Killer: Remember that book he wrote. Chapter 6.
    God: Yeh. My son was talking about not judging folk since you are just as bad.
    Killer: Yeh. Remember the whole First-Born thing in egypt. Children being murdered by you.
    God: Well….Ummm….Technically it was the angel of death…
    Killer: Seriously….

    Killer ends up in hell on a legal technicality, end of story….

    • Interesting, though I imagine most people would just argue that since God knows all things and created all things, He (somehow) kills for good reasons while we kill for evil ones.

      Still, I’d add to your first question that pharaoh’s heart was hardened by God. If pharaoh’s heart was ALREADY hard, there would’ve been no need for God to harden it. Therefore we can assume that Pharaoh originally intended to listen to Moses and no children were going to die. But God didn’t like this outcome, so He hardened his heart so He could kill all the first born. Why did God kill the first born? Because pharaoh’s heart was hard. Why was it hard? Because God made it hard. Why did God make it hard? So he could kill the first born. Why did God want to kill all the first born? To make some sort of point, I guess.

      I can imagine this scenario:

      God: So pharaoh, why didn’t you let my people go?
      Pharaoh: Why did you harden my heart so I wouldn’t let them go, and then kill all our first born?
      God: I’ll ask the questions, here!

  53. Holly says:

    What an unusual blog as compared to the usual. I deeply appreciate 500Q logical mind and kind manners. He allows for open discussion without the threat of being treated disrespectfully. It doesn’t seem it’s because of any rules here, but just that his way encourages respect. Thank you!

    I have not seen here the consideration that maybe the bible is just a book or a compilation of some of the ancient writings of a somewhat primitive people, understandably historically accurate in many instances, but not a factual account of the reality of existence and consciousness and love. When I base all my thoughts about a creator on this book, it doesn’t satisfy in any way; it simply turns me off (for all of the above stated reasons). Though I tried to find a church for many years, maybe hoping for a sense of community and love, it did not satisfy either, nor were my questions considered important and relevant by those who invited me to ask.

    Though the parts of the bible that reveal love and decency in my fellow human beings is gratifying to me and does make me feel a part of something that is real, my desire is to find truth, not partial truth/partial fantasy. I’ll admit also my longing to be together again with my son who died, yet whom I feel is still with me spiritually.

    I look around and see beauty and intelligence and wonder in nature. It’s illogical to me to even consider that all this intricacy just came into being on it’s own. So I do tend strongly toward a belief that it was created and designed. I also feel that my feelings and my dreams and the subconscious part of me also, are the spiritual part of my life. I trust in my feelings and I trust in love. Love is incomprehensible and cannot be explained scientifically (at least not yet??). Even if it could be explained, like other things, it wouldn’t change the wonder of it. Some surmise that DNA is responsible for our personality types and that may be true, but it still doesn’t explain why or obviate the truth that we are still able to choose so much in our lives.

    So I don’t want to write a book here, but have you ever wondered if nature is our teacher and not the bible. If nature is meant to be our teacher, our comfort, our guide. If nature can reveal to us the nature of the one who created us? If the bad in life was not meant to be, but happened for some reason, through no fault of good people. If, after suffering and also after living happily, we will come to a place that our hearts long for when we die? If the beautiful feelings of love we have will never die and will continue to be the only real thing in the world ultimately?

    Please be gentle. This is my only hope. I must see my son again.

  54. Holly says:

    And one more thing about the bible. I don’t want a God who condoned slavery, encouraged patricide and genocide, encouraged WAR, couldn’t control his anger, punished people for being born, needed to be worshiped, sent his own ‘children’ to hell for eternity if they didn’t believe in him, allowed his own son to be tortured and called it goodness, considered women to be inferior to men, and did not lecture constantly on the greatest evil in this world, which is child abuse. One would think the subject of child abuse would be a central teaching in such a book.

    • Hi Holly, thanks for your comments. :-)

      I think if we were to re-write the Bible today, we’d probably do it much differently than they did 2000-3000 years ago. We’d keep all the good and lovely bits, and toss out all the jealous, hateful, unreasonable and illogical bits. But maybe we’ve already done that… our image of God seems to have evolved over time.

      One of the WORST parts of being alive (aside from suffering) is knowing we will die, and having to endure the loss of our loved ones. When someone close to us dies, I think we all desperately want to hear that: 1) their death was for a very good reason, 2) they’re not REALLY dead, 3) they’re somewhere living happily ever after, and 4) we’ll see them again later. When we see someone suffering from the loss of a loved one, those are the kinds of things we want to tell them. No one wants to be the douche who says “Nope, they’re just dead.”

      I think death motivates us. We don’t like seeing our loved ones die, and we are nothing if not creatures who instinctively want to survive. This conflicts with our big brain, which realizes we will die no matter what, so we have to invent a way out.

      In the movie “The Invention of Lying,” it’s death that motivates the main character to start lying to his mother. I love this scene, because I think it beautifully illustrates how our desire to comfort others leads telling comforting lies, ones that we all desperately want to believe:

      If your son were here, surely he would want you to live your life to the fullest, and you should do so out of love and respect for him (just like you would want HIM to do so out of love and respect for you). In that time you were together, you MATTERED to him and he MATTERED to you (as he still does). Even if God’s love does not exist, OUR LOVE really does. These emotions are real because we are real and we experience them. I love my own kids, they matter the world to me and I know I matter to them. So even if there is no God or afterlife, I know I mattered (not that it really matters, but it makes me feel better, lol).

      But personally, I’m most interested in getting to the honest to goodness truth of the matter, not in accepting comforting lies, even if they are life-affirming. But I agree with you that there ARE things like consciousness, love, DNA, nature, math, the Universe and complexity that need to be explored, and they give us hope that maybe there’s something more out there. Are these things proof of creation, or is there a natural explanation?

      I also agree that nature is probably the best witness, and her testimony is more valid than whatever men might dream up. Nature leaves us solid clues that we can investigate and take confidence in. While nature can be beautiful, nature can also be wholly indifferent and cruel (though not intentionally). This tells me that nature is unthinking, and if the other aforementioned things can be explained naturally, then we are probably just temporary bits of the Universe. But if so, we’re some EXTREMELY rare bits of the Universe that can actually comprehend itself (more rare than gold or diamonds). Even if there is no afterlife, we are, in a sense, Gods: we ARE the eternal Universe, we understand morality, and we can even create things that have never existed before. So what if life is only temporary, it’s still a special and unique experience, and we’ve all been given a very rare opportunity to experience it. It’s much more interesting than what we were all doing for the eons previous to this life, which we will all return to soon enough.

      That’s about as gentle as I can be. Live long and prosper. ;-)

      • Take it easy! because you are playing being a god, you are trying to give a good answer every moment, but you don´t forget you’re just a human; the best thing from God is the love and I think you can’t give the love enough! Bible is the God’s word, so how can you think like Him?, please tell me the beginning of the life and I will be your main fan.

        • Holly says:

          Alfredo, I thought this sight was a place to discuss things rather than just receive answers from 500Q. Nothing wrong with that, but I was hoping for more discussion, back and forth.
          Like other sights this seems to be just the biblical believer vs. the non believer.

          May you all find the answers you’re looking for and the dreams you seek. I think I’ve absorbed all there is to absorb here. Sigh

  55. Holly says:

    Well, it’s good to hear your response and thank you. I don’t know what will happen when we die and neither does anyone else obviously. Even if you told be dead is dead, which it seems is what you believe, I do not consider that your take on it is any more correct than my own, which constantly changes and that is not what I meant by being gentle with me. I simply meant to let you know that I am in a vulnerable state and to respect that. But consider what I have said about the power of love and the beauty and lessons of the natural world, which includes us. I ask that you really think about this, because I see that you have a good mind and would love to explore it with you and anyone here.

    We are often so ingrained in the ‘bible’ that everything flows from that, including our rejection of it and a god. Imagine that the bible didn’t exist and all we had was nature to show us the way. I haven’t begun to learn all that science and the natural world has to teach me and yes, it gives me hope. I have also read 100’s of books in my search and continue to seek truth and knowledge. Beauty and love give me hope.

    I don’t have time to go into all I think about this today, but sometime I would like to throw some thoughts out there.

    And 500Q, you are right that my son would want me to live life fully but the honest reality is that when one loses a son (at least in my case), the choice to go on and be happy has been denied to me. It’s not about a choice at all. Just trying to stay alive without him living here with me is all I’m capable of doing and I am proud of myself for that. I think he would be, and is, glad that I will always search for him. We will find each other some day.

    Yes nature can be cruel. Humans are a part of nature and are the cruelest. Animals can be very cruel. Snakes try to bite me. Any number of animals would attack me if given the chance, and so would any number of people in the world. I wish it wasn’t this way and that we could all just get along. But there’s a reason for it somewhere and yet, we will probably never know it. Something that has really helped me in this journey is the movie called ‘The Privileged Planet’ and there’s the same book, which explores the probabilities of other planets having life,. which the authors doubt due to analysis of logical probabilities and how perfectly positioned and placed our Earth is for life. It’s just amazing the amount of research they have done. I don’t agree with everything and it hasn’t convinced me absolutely, but has been a great tool in my search.

    Thanks again, for your reply and for this blog.


  56. Pingback: 42. Why does God allow animals to suffer? | 500 Questions about God & Christianity

  57. Anonymous says:

    Because there is no god…no further explanations required

  58. Lyne says:

    I think all of you missed the point. A reason to believe in God or not should stem from a question like how God could allow a child to suffer for a very long time, abused and tied up and then eventually die from hunger, or abused slowly and dieing from inflicted wounds, either way some children have suffered for years from abuse until they died, and I’m talking about young children ages 2 to 8 years old for example. Some have been kidnapped and suffered for at least a year until they were murdered, raped or died from torture and abuse. God has time to look at all this day after day and allow this to happen? Remember for some it’s a long time. Like that little boy who was tied up to a dog house at the age of 1 1/2 and treated like a dog but worse, enduring the abuse until he died when he was 4 years old. Even for 1 year or months is extremely bad for a young child to endure until death. This is what we should should be focusing on pertaining to whether there is a God or not. The fact that he has seen this for a long time and yet did nothing. Not a murder from an evil person, a disease, etc that also happens to children, and yes it’s still where the child suffers, but it is not as intense as the information I gave you above. So when God has time to see this and the child suffers for a long time from the hands of an abuser until the child dies from it. This is what I don’t understand as to why God can allow this child to keep suffering like this until death.

    • Anonymous says:

      “Even for 1 year or months is extremely bad for a young child to endure until death. This is what we should should be focusing on pertaining to whether there is a God or not. The fact that he has seen this for a long time and yet did nothing.”


      Lynne, I haven’t weighed in for awhile…So, I will say this: Your above statement of, “we should not be focusing …” on His existence, is the whole purpose of this website. Some want to believe, others do and don’t and support why. Some of your examples about death and suffering of children make it difficult to believe. I have the same issues.

  59. Lyne says:

    But what confuses is me is the true stories in books of some who have lived to tell the story on what they have seen in the near death experience. It just sounds so real.

    • Hi Lyne,

      You and me both! These NDE stories kept me going for awhile, until I discovered they have their share of logical problems. For example, many Christians don’t like the fact that many of the “unsaved” also have lovely near death experiences. This drove some Christians to object to the validity of NDEs, or call them satanic deceptions. I found this very ironic — you’d think Christians would be first in line to endorse NDEs.

      There are a number of other issues I wrote about under question #20: “What evidence is there that humans have a spirit? Part 2: Near Death Experiences (NDEs).” If you have any other thoughts or questions on NDEs, please post them there (so other folks curious about NDEs can find your related comments, there).

      500Q :-)

  60. Lyne says:

    Interesting! I will look into that. But first, let me get this off my chest. But before I do let me add, I use to be a Christian and now I am doubting it and have stopped going to church for 2 months now. It’s all a money making gimmick anyhow.
    The truth is, there are NO supernatural gods of any kind in any religion. There are no devils, no demons no satans.

    The christian religion has to have a devil to blame when things go wrong. Christians cannot allow any blame to fall on their god.
    They have to have a devil to blame.
    Without a devil and a hell, their entire religion collapses.
    I am going to prove based on rational evidence, that there is no god, there is no devil, there is no hell, there is no heaven.
    1. Prayers are never answered when verifiable things are prayed for.
    Christians have been praying for at least 50 years for their god to stop abortions, but their god has never stopped even one single abortion.

    2. No amputee has ever had a limb picked up off the ground and healed back on.

    3. No one with a bleeding open wound has ever been healed.

    4. Three billion living and long dead christians have been praying for their god to appear on earth in person for 6,000 years.

    The bible god has never been seen except in the fictional bible. The bible god is still a no show…..If the bible god existed, he obviously doesn’t care anything at all about his silly followers.

    What could a supernatural god be doing for 6,000 years? A real supernatural all powerful god could do anything with a though alone, yet the bible god can’t take even one minute to appear on earth IN PERSON.?!!!!!!

    5. Absolute proof your god can not really heal anyone. Gather together christians in the largest church possible. News media notified. Prayer event can be televised live worldwide.

    Get a christian volunteer to walk on stage as every christian watching commences praying. There is no chance that a real god could miss several 100 million or so praying christians. As prayer continues the christian volunteer has a finger or hand chopped off. The severed limb must be allowed to fall to the floor with camera close ups from all angles to prevent fraud.

    Meanwhile all christians are still praying enmass, begging their god to pick it up and heal it back on.

    Praying can continue until the volunteer either bleeds to death or is treated by a DR.

    The volunteer will NOT be healed. GUARANTEED.

    Testimonials about this or that christian who had cancer, or someone’s heart condition, or any church members cirrhosis of the liver etc etc etc, who were healed through prayer are just worthless testimonials.

    None of that was visible. If It can’t be seen it can’t be proven. Testifying is meaningless. Proof must be visible to one and all..

    Blind faith is meaningless and useless. There are two kinds of faith, demonstrated faith such as faith that your car will start because it always has, and blind faith such as belief in witches or goblins.

    6. Christians claim they have a loving god, yet according to their own bible, their god slaughtered all the first born babies in Egypy one night, then slaughtered all the fist born animals too for good measure.

    7. Also according to the bible the bible god slaughtered the entire population of the planet including all children, all babies, even all plants and animals.

    This is a god to worship?

    8. Christians blame free will for bad things that happen, but free will is is a false premise.

    Here is why:

    Chirstians claim their god is all powerful and all knowing. If that’s true the bible god knows in advance what all 6. 7 billion people on the planet will do……. before they do it.

    No one has the option to change that which their god knows IN ADVANCE…. (Remember god is ALL KNOWING) that they will do.

    If god is NOT all knowing then he has to sit back and wonder what each person will do next. In that case, god cannot be all knowing.

    So either the bible god knows in advance what each of us will do, or he cannot be all knowing.

    9. Christians claim they have a supernatural god but the only way to prove that is to have their god appear in person.

    10. It is incumbent on christians to actually prove this claim. I can claim that god Vishnew created everything. My claim has the same credibility as yours……… Exactly zero ……unless one of us can actually produce our god in person.

    Neither one of us can do that because all gods are make believe. All are imaginary. Christians only have a make believe god.

    • Hi again. It sounds like you’ve got a pretty good handle on why some people have their doubts about the existence of God. I’m just going to add a few of my own thoughts in response…

      “It’s all a money making gimmick anyhow.”

      In all fairness, I think this is an oversimplification. I know a few pastors that sincerely believe in the work they do, and I know I sincerely believed and tried to serve God. But for some douchebags like Peter Popoff, it’s just a way to make money.

      “Without a devil and a hell, their entire religion collapses.”

      That’s an interesting thought, but I know there are some Christians that don’t actually believe in hell, and that doesn’t seem to stop them from going to church and praying.

      But on a somewhat related note, when people were polled and asked if they had to choose between eternal life without God, or God (as we understand Him) and just this life, most people chose eternal life. In other words, most people don’t really care about God, they just don’t want to die.

      #1. Agreed. And ironically, Christians make up the majority of people who get abortions.

      #2. Agreed. There’s even a fellow who has a website “whydoesntgodhealamputees.com,” and he makes the same point. Healings are never quite this obvious.

      #3. There was that one guard that Jesus’s glued his ear back on, but this has never been verified or repeated.

      #4. Agreed (though I think you mean 2000 years, or maybe 6000 years for Jews?). Sending us a little fire from heaven, or showing us that prayers work when directed to Him vs. other gods — there are plenty of ways He could prove He isn’t imaginary.

      #5 Alternatively, we could ask all Christians to pray at the same time for the restoration of limbs for one well-deserving quadruple amputee. I’d be convinced!

      #6. Ya, not very loving. And let’s not forget verses like Psalms 137:9, “Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!” And for some reason, God still thinks it’s necessary to continue killing children with things like TB, malaria, diphtheria, influenza, AIDS, cancer…

      #7. Ya, flooding the world… not sure how much of a difference that really made in the long run.

      #8. And if He knows what everyone is going to do in advance, and He knows the majority will end up in hell, why create them?

      #9. Hummm. I’ve often wondered about this one. I don’t think I’d need to see God in person to know that He existed. For example, if I said, “God, could you levitate this object for me to prove that you’re not imaginary?” and He did, I think I’d be okay with that. I’ve given Him plenty of opportunities to confirm He’s not imaginary, but so far He seems to be ignoring me.

      #10. Agreed. The burden of proof should be upon the person making the claim.


  61. Oran says:

    Evil is here for a purpose. God probably MADE evil and suffering so we can LEARN from what other people have done and why not to do them. It does not mean he does’t love us, he ABSALUTELY loves us. He wants us to learn from experience. Without pain, we wont know what to look out for in life. Same with Satan’s Palace. (Hell) is there for a reason. God made it. He made it because he doesn’t want bad people in his Beautiful home. He wants the bad people to learn from what they have done

    • Howdy Oran, thanks for your polite comments.

      I hear you saying that God loves us, and just wants us to learn from the evil other people have done, for without pain, we wouldn’t know what to watch out for. That’s reasonable enough when pain is administered logically and given in conjunction with sin, but that’s usually not the case. For example, when the black plague killed men, women and children by the millions, was it God’s way of saying, “You should all watch out for this mysterious unknown thing that is killing you.” Was God punishing them all for some reason? Or when TB kills 1.4 million people per year, is it God’s way of saying, “Coughing is obviously evil and leads to more death, so you should all stop doing it.”

      Don’t get me wrong, I can appreciate an appropriate amount of pain used for conjunction with discipline. But God’s pain is often illogical and seemingly undeserved, especially when it comes to innocent children and even animals. If a child is kidnapped, tortured and raped for several years, and then killed, we wouldn’t say, “Well God allowed it, so it must’ve been for a good reason. It wasn’t excessive, it was exactly the right amount of torture, rape and pain that this child needed, as opposed to all other children, who don’t need that much.” I can’t think of any way in which we can re-frame this kind of punishment is appropriate.

      As for people in hell, I might be okay with it if hell were temporary and only for the purposes of “re-education,” but I don’t think most Christians see it that way, I think most see it as an eternal separation from God.


    • Claudia Earl says:

      so a 4 year old is tortured, raped and murdered….they learn what? What’s God’s logic for this?

  62. Lyne says:

    Hello Oran,
    Your message didn’t make sense to me only because you seem to have forgotten about the innocent children that suffer in the hands of evil. You said Evil is here for a purpose. God probably Made evil and suffering so we can Learn from what other people have done and why not to do them. How is that related to young children? And you said God wants us to learn from the experience. These are YOUNG children, now come one!!!! These children do not deserve the pain.

  63. Sal says:

    Could God create a world where only the worst evils and suffering are removed? Why can’t God intervene and remove only the worst suffering. In that way the world would still remain as a free moral world. On the surface it looks good and it does appear that to remove only the worst suffering would not disrupt the world too much. In this kind of world God can still build moral free creatures because suffering even though it’s at a lower level will still exist. True freedom will still be there. But let’s suppose that God did intervene and eliminated only the worst suffering and the worst of evils, and let’s say that on the scale of 1 to 100 He would remove the worst evils with the magnitude of 100. Would there be still instances of the worst evils namely the evils of the magnitude of 90? That same reasoning would apply to these evils and suffering. God would be required to eliminate these as well. Given enough time the evils of the 80’s would be the worst evils and the principle would have to again be applied. In short, consistently applying the principle that God intervene to remove the worst evils we derive at the fact that God is required to remove all evils. This kind of world eventually would cease to be a free moral world. If God was allowed to remove the worst evils and suffering, human freedom will eventually be removed. Surely this is not the best option.

    • rautakyy says:

      The concept of free will has been gravely distorted by religious people. Constantly one runs into these silly claims that the evil in the world is directly derived from human free will. But how does polio result from the human free will? How does human free will cause earthquakes?

      What is evil? Selfish choises made by men, or rather terrible suffering experienced by humans?

      What is “free will”? The freedom of an individual to act this, or that way? Yet, in the real world we only have a limited amount of freedom. Some people have freedom to choose from a multiple amount of options whille some have only a very limited scope from wich to choose. If there is a god that so values the individual freedom, is that god some sort of Libertarian? Does that god appriciate more the free will of the man who was born rich, than the free will of the poor girl child born handicapped in a slum for example?

      Did the god who alledgedly appriciates so much of the free will give more value to the free will of the nazi stormtroopers and political leaders, than the free will of the concentration camp victims? Even children there? Surely their free will would have been to continue alive, while the free will of the natzies was to murder them.

      If there is a god, that is actually interrested us humans and intervenes in the world and desires us humans to believe in its own existance, then it could act directly and openly against such abuse of free will, that results in terrible atrocities and against such evil that in no way results from human free will. But it never does, does it?

      If individual freedom means the possibility to make choises and a god appriciates it so much, then why do human societies try to limit that free will? To set all sorts of laws for people to obey? Possibly, because we as humans are quite aware, that free will can be employed by individuals and communities without retorting to evil shit. That freedom is actually not seriouly damaged, by making choises between different good actions and inaction.

      Alledgedly this god has interfered in human free will by setting some rules himself, but the problem with those is, that they seem like arbitrary commands and tribal moralism of the ancient people who wrote them down, not like some divine wisdom from the creator of the universe. It seems we humans have today a higher moral ground to ethics in comparrison to that god.

    • Interesting point Sal, but I beg to differ.

      There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that a certain amount of suffering is necessary in order for human free will to exist. For example, Adam lived in a garden with zero pain and suffering, but even in this perfect environment he had the free will to choose to rebel against God. There’s no reason Adam and Eve couldn’t have eventually died in the garden and been punished in the afterlife, while their children continued to live in Eden and were given the same choice. If we insist that human freedom requires a certain amount of evil to exist in our environment, then we also insist that Adam had no free will.

      Even if we could establish that Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden was somehow logically necessary, in a moral universe would should see punishment befalling those who break God’s moral laws, not the innocent. Instead, we see both the good and bad suffer equally, and we’re reassured that God will make up for this discrepancy in the afterlife.

  64. Sal says:

    One moment of time

    The universe is somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years old. The most common estimates are something around 13 billion years. If an individual human lives 100 years, then that would mean we live less than 0.000001% of the universe’s age. If the whole history of planet earth was a 24 hour clock, then human life would be the very last second. Now imagine if God is in infinite time, does that not make us even more insignificant in time. When we talk about suffering please remember we are talking about a near zero of time of suffering in comparison to God’s time. Sure, suffering is unjust, especially for little children, but if God gives us eternal life in exchange for that trice of 0.00000000000000000000001% of time of suffering then no suffering is unjust.

    To create a perfect paradise free from suffering may not be the best world to live in if our time in paradise on earth is near zero. I mean if our paradise would be a world where suffering never occurs, it may be less desirable. Without living in a sinful world we would never know what sin is. We could never know the real true meaning of paradise. Love patience and other good values would not be possible with the presence of sin. In a perfect world without evil, man could not learn how to overcome the great pain of suffering with patience humility fortitude and with the help of God. Man would not know these values. There could never be a right or wrong action. If there were no afflictions there would ever be difficulties to overcome. If we never face fear or danger then courage and strength would not be needed. There would be no generosity, kindness and other ethical values. Man would not know this. To live in paradise without the trial and troubles would cause harmful consequences on human development. Feelings such as bravery, chivalry, joy, peace, love and so on would not be known if there was no risk in life. Do away with the discipline and heartache and we would never learn endurance. If there were no temptations, where would righteousness be? If there were no darkness to be fought where would be the thrill of happiness? Construct a perfect world with no troubles in it and immediately you banish some of the finest qualities in the world. Eliminate every element of difficulty would degenerate the goodness of man. If all evil actions and suffering were to stop then men would not learn the consequences of evil thoughts and actions. If the pain of growing were to vanish there would be no potential for moral progress or achievement. Without the trials and obstacles the growth of character could not develop. All moral learning would cease. If God never creates us where evil never occurred we could not learn how to produce good. If we cannot live it we cannot know it. There is no other way to learn. There is no way to produce a great champion without the preconditioning of painful practice no matter how harsh or unjust it may be..

    The heartbreaks of little children suffering and dying in our zero time frames may not be a high price to pay if the end of this life brings us to the threshold of eternity. The most fortunate people in the universe are those who discover, through suffering, that this life is not all we have to live for. Those who find themselves and their eternal God through suffering have not wasted their pain. They have let their poverty, grief, and hunger drive them to their Lord of eternity.

    WOW just one flash second of life teaches us all that. Paradise would teach us nothing.

    But why would God give us only a twinkling second to live?” why can’t he give us an immortal life without the fear of death. Could God create a world where men were free but would never die? Picture what the world would be like if people lived forever yet still filled with evil in order to develop human growth. It would be horrible. First, if people never died the world would become impossibly crowded. In fact if the population increases only 1% a year for a million years there would not be enough planets in the universe to hold them all. People would avoid having children to avoid the crowding. We would probably never have been born. Knowing we will never die would be unbearable. Life would have no meaning. Every decision would have no purpose. Free choice would not be important to people who are immortal. People who are mortal and fated to die, their time is limited and what they choose to do with it represents a real choice. Many of us could not endure a life that went on forever. The blind would remain blind. The sick would remain sick. The paralyzed would never walk. The retarded child would never have a normal mind. Aching hearts would continue to ache and never be healed. Evil men such as Adolph Hitler, Josef Stalin and Mao Tse Tng could dictate godless societies forever. We would come to the point were death would be the only healer. Living with the knowledge that we will die may be frightening but knowing we will never be release from the pain of living would be hell. I think that one instant second of time is enough for us to learn.

    Remember this; if you are one who is raising your fist to the sky and asking why, then immediately you are automatically assuming that a higher power exist. When we ask why God allows evil and pain to exist in a world we are presupposes that God exists. The difficulty to understand suffering is because of God. In fact it is precisely our belief in God that creates the problem. There is no real problem of evil and suffering for the man who does not believe in a loving God. If there is not a God and just a dead mechanism of a world, then obviously there is no reason why these things happen.

    • Hi Sal,

      That was a thought-provoking attempt at trivializing the suffering of children. While I disagree, you did add a few good possibilities that haven’t been suggested yet, so I’d be happy to address these.

      “When we talk about suffering please remember we are talking about a near zero of time of suffering in comparison to God’s time.”

      While time may be minimal to God, we’re not God. (Although, any time you try to do math calculations with infinity, things get complicated). To the innocent girl who’s forced to live as an abused sex slave, that time is long, painful and significant, because she sees it through her eyes and not God’ time. (I’ve addressed the issue of eternal compensation/rewards elsewhere.) But regardless of how fleeting it is compared to eternity, it’s still evil. Evil is evil unless it can be shown to be absolutely necessary on every level. Additionally, if hell exists, then this evil persists in God’s time as well as ours (assuming such a thing even exists).

      “Love patience and other good values would not be possible with the presence of sin.”

      I’ve considered this kind of yin-yang possibility, but firstly, it would also mean that we must always have suffering (or memory of suffering) in heaven in order to appreciate the lack thereof. We can’t very well have no tears in heaven if we still remember these scars. Secondly, it’s unfair for God to cause some children to endure a lifetime of extreme suffering while others get off scrott-free. If you are correct, and a certain amount of suffering is necessary in order to appreciate heaven, then all people should be subject to that same amount of suffering so we can appreciate heaven.

      “To live in paradise without the trial and troubles would cause harmful consequences on human development.”

      So… a life in Eden would’ve caused harmful consequences on Adam’s development? Because God seemed to think anything but Eden would not be ideal.

      “Do away with the discipline and heartache and we would never learn endurance.”

      Millions of children never even have the opportunity to learn from the experience. What becomes of them? They can’t possibly go to heaven, because — as you’ve already stated — they wouldn’t possibly be able to appreciate it.

      “Construct a perfect world with no troubles in it and immediately you banish some of the finest qualities in the world. “

      My objection isn’t to really to setbacks, temptations and challenges. My objection is to gratuitous and seemingly unnecessary suffering. If all suffering could be logically matched up with God’s moral laws, we might be in a better position to argue that God exists and is fair. Instead, punishments are randomly assigned and to varying degrees. And once again, if we all require a certain degree of pain, trials, temptation, etc., then we should all be subject to the same experience.

      “If we cannot live it we cannot know it.”

      Because God is all-powerful, but not powerful enough to create people with false memories, or an innate appreciate for good over evil.

      “There is no other way to learn. “

      How did God learn? If He always had the knowledge He has, and He always had an appreciation for good and evil, then there must be another way to learn.

      “Those who find themselves and their eternal God through suffering have not wasted their pain.”

      Like… animals? What reward to they receive for their suffering? None? Then their suffering is wasted pain.

      “Paradise would teach us nothing.”

      Wait… now you sound just like the serpent in the garden of Eden. Are you saying “It is GOOD for us to know evil!” Because God didn’t seem to think so, God warned Adam and Eve against knowing evil. Are you suggesting He was full of crap and actually wanted them to fail so they could later appreciate heaven?

      “There is no real problem of evil and suffering for the man who does not believe in a loving God.”

      I couldn’t agree more. Removing a good God from the equation completely solves the problem. It is only when we assume there is a benevolent God that we have to struggle to explain all these illogical inconsistencies.

  65. JESUS Freak says:


  66. JESUS Freak says:

    this web site is sooooooooo dumb my God is a good God

    • Well that wasn’t very nice, I work hard on this site. :-(

      Again, do you have an answer to this question? Because it’s hard for me to be won over by someone who’s idea of an argument is covering their ears and yelling, “God is good! God is good! God is GOOD!” Can you prove it?

  67. Mukund says:

    For those to be blessed, there have to be those that aren’t blessed.

    • Hi Munkund,

      Let’s think this through. Are you saying that we MUST allow some 5 year-olds to be raped and murdered, or else OTHER 5 year-olds can never feel blessed? (It seems to me that a good God would find a way to put some age restrictions on such atrocities.)

      And what about Adam and Eve? Are you also suggesting they could NEVER feel blessed unless someone else was suffering?

  68. Dave says:

    Life is purposeless. Pain and sufferning is cruel. If there was a God what aq cunt he must be.

  69. Nobody says:

    I’m looking for answers myself for a life of pain and lost loved ones and all I can say is if the God of the Christians does not exist then life has no meaning and there is no hope for the mess I’ve made of my life.

    • I won’t shit you, life is hard sometimes, really hard, but I wouldn’t call it meaningless. Some times are just better/worse than others, and that’s the cost of living.

      Part the appeal of Christianity (or religion in general) is the promise of greater meaning, and most religions do a pretty good job of convincing their followers that life will be meaningless without them, but I don’t buy that. Even if God doesn’t exist, WE DO exist, and we still have needs and feelings that matter while we’re alive. It may not be eternal life, or eternal meaning, but it’s still life, and it’s still meaning. (And one day, we may even defeat death, and death will become a choice.) So while we don’t have any great cosmic meaning, we do matter to ourselves and to others while we’re here.

      But I think Christianity also appeals to us because it gives us a god who can magically erase our sins. It feels nice to feel like we’re doing the right thing, and to feel forgiven (even if it’s nonsense). But if it turns out God doesn’t really exist, then we never were really forgiven, nor were we doing what He wanted, it was all imagined. The trick is to be able to forgive ourselves and to do the things we feel are right without the sky fairy.

      But really, if you had to choose between a reality where >50% of the population die and end up in eternal torment OR where 100% of the people die and are eternally at rest, which would you choose? I’d choose the latter, which results in less overall suffering. So if the God of the Christians does not exist, this may be a GOOD thing. But even death can be a good thing — can you imagine being born into this world and your life having no end to it? After awhile, I imagine you’d wish for death.

      Still, the transition from belief to non-belief can be a difficult one (partly because religion promises us things like greater meaning and forgiveness), but there are groups out there that can help with the transition, such as recoveringfromreligion.org.

      Take care!

  70. Alex says:

    Today an infant was shot in the head. Two days ago my daughters friend 7yr Sabastian died of brain cancer…..there is so much agony going on inside me I do not know what to do? I do know that I am upset with God for allowing these acts of evil happen to children. Being born with sin is a bunch of crap…..we could of have easily been born in heaven….am I right? Just skip all the bullshit and suffering and everyone is happy. So don’t count on God for anything, keep watch over your children as best as you can. Give them the best of health and nutrition to keep their bodies strong. Donate to legit cancer research groups to help fund a cure….and always be as good as a person you can be. If there is a God ( I used to believe but now i’m doubting) I assume he is not happy with what I am saying, but you know what?….I don’t care anymore. I worry so much about every little petty sin I commit….worry about what God thinks of me, but you know what? I think God should worry about the people losing faith in him! He should worry about the parents who no longer can hold their child’s hand because some fucking disease or insane murderer took them from them. Thanks God….thanks for all the hurt.

    • Yep. We humans don’t want this crap to happen, and God obviously doesn’t want it… so why allow it? To please Satan? Can God not save us unless a certain number of kids are murdered or die from cancer? You’d think God could come up with better plan… one where the guilty suffer and the innocent don’t, instead of applying blessings and cursing randomly. Unless, of course, He doesn’t exist… which would explain quite a bit.

  71. Geri ben Avraham says:

    Food for thought:

    “The sins of the fathers shall be visited on the children to the 3rd and 4th generations.”

    Does anyone think they understand our Creator?? Most of you don’t even know His name….to far removed….so the cycle goes unbroken.

    • More food for thought:

      3rd and 4th generation? So much for being a forgiving God.

      Deuteronomy 24:16 – “Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.”

      Ezekiel 18:20 – “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

  72. Geri ben Avraham says:

    We were warned several thousand years ago…but we still today refuse to listen…leaning on our own understanding…

    • You make it sound so simple!

      I’m not refusing to listen, I’m just not sure whose understanding I should lean on if not my own! The understanding of the Muslims? The Mormons? The Greeks and Romans? The Jews? The Christians? The Egyptians? The Mayans? The Zoroastrians? The Catholics? The Protestants? Which understanding of God would you recommend? Pick any one, and billions of people will still tell you you’ve chosen incorrectly.

      How can anyone have an understanding of God when God hasn’t bothered to make His religion of choice entirely clear? Even after thousands of years of bickering, we’re still no closer to figuring out who truly speaks for god, because God refuses to take a side. God just acts… nonexistent, and refuses to show a clear and testable preference.

  73. Anonymous says:

    This is from a scientist who was athiest but is now a new born christian because of what he knows from science.

    • [Note: The above comment was edited to link directly back to the original source. This way we can give credit to the original author.]

      To be fair, I believe there are just as many Christian scientists who become atheists than the other way around (in fact, probably more-so), but this probably shouldn’t be the crux of the debate, so I digress.

      I certainly have no objection to “a temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity,” that actually sounds quite nice! What I object to is the gratuitous and violent acts that God allows to be played out upon the innocent. These children are violently denied their right to even make a choice, it’s made for them (and I don’t see how this benefits God’s plan). Is God not smart enough to design a world where He can grant free will to one man, while still protecting the free will of another?

      I’m no God, but even I can think of several possible alternatives (though I’m sure God could do better): God could’ve created an Eden-like paradise where only those who chose evil are evicted or made to suffer from it. Or God could’ve created a world where the innocent were far more durable and protected from harm. Or God could’ve even created a world where everyone remained in their spirit form and were not subject to physical harm, but still given the free will to accept or reject God. Those are just three examples, but I’m sure we could imagine many more.

      If there’s another specific point from this article that you think provides a valid reason for God to allow children to be raped, tortured and murdered, I’d be happy to explore that possibility. But since it makes several points, I’ll need you to be a bit more specific.

  74. Anonymous says:

    blame the actual people that commit this shit. God has no control over the things we do. we humans are the problem. yeah God’s law is fucked up, i sometimes think “stop dicking around and do something about this mess” but at the end of the day, humans do it. some are evil some are not. why can some people commit these acts. ?

    • Hi Anonymous,

      According to UNICEF, the top 5 global causes of childhood death are: acute respiratory infections, diarrhea, measles, malaria and malnutrition. Point being, most childhood suffering and death is not caused by men, but the environment.

      • Anonymous says:

        poor nutrition causes those deaths- a sad fact because governments are loaded yet their minds are greedy and ambitious. they’d spend billions on fire power and instruments of mass destruction instead of helping poverty stricken states. men rape women everyday and spread the killing aids disease from mother to child. a lot of suffering is caused by man kind. it is man’s choice to act on ones thoughts.

        • Governments are not responsible for the invention of “natural” evils, such as respiratory infections, measles, malaria, TB, AIDS, cancer, genetic defects, natural disasters, flesh-eating animals and bacteria, and so on. If the ONLY evil we observed in life came directly from humans, we MIGHT be able to make a case for a benevolent God (though we might wonder why God made these men at all), but that’s isn’t what we observe.

  75. Anonymous says:

    you’re angry. because all these cruel things are happening. you clearly believe in God but you don’t understand him. you’re pissed because he won’t tell you why the shit that happens on earth happens. you’re not gonna find out, no matter how many posts you make, no one knows god. you don’t, and that’s what makes you so angry. no one knows him, recite the bible if you will but that shit was made by man. when you die, then you can ask questions and get real answers.

    • This sounds a lot like a Christian argument: “Just stop asking questions, lean not unto your own understanding, trust in God and everything will be okay when you die.” Perhaps. Problem is, this answer may actually be pure bullshit. So while I could bury my head in the sand, I’d rather try to understand both sides of the argument (for and against God/Christianity). Because when I die, I may not be able to ask questions. Will I ever have 100% certainty? Probably not, but at least I’ll understand the debate.

      • Anonymous says:

        i don’t think everything is going to be okay when we die, there’s way more to it then the straight “you either go to heaven or hell” belief. what i’m saying or rather asking is what are you trying to achieve from these posts? you’ll understand the ‘debate’?? mankind kill children everyday whether it be physically or mentally. if you don’t believe in God why are you trying to blame child sufferings on him? why don’t you blame the people that actually DO the acts.

        • “…there’s way more to it then the straight ‘you either go to heaven or hell’ belief.”

          Can you prove this, or is this just wishful thinking? A lot of believers who would disagree.

          “what are you trying to achieve from these posts?”

          I value truth, so I’m trying to find it.

          “if you don’t believe in God why are you trying to blame child sufferings on him?”

          My point in this particular post is to suggest that childhood suffering contradicts the idea of a benevolent God. I would only blame God for this suffering if He actually existed, otherwise, I think suffering is just a natural consequence of being alive. Luckily, we’re able to eliminate many forms of suffering, and no gods seem to object to our doing this (which they might, if there was actually a purpose to suffering).

          “why don’t you blame the people that actually DO the acts.”

          To the contrary, I DO! If someone intentionally harms a child, he SHOULD be brought to justice. But the majority of children suffer from natural diseases and defects.

  76. Faith Journey says:

    I’ve thought and prayed about why innocent children are allowed to suffer for most of my life. I believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior but this one has been a struggle for me with my limited human capacity. None of us can imagine the horror and pain a child goes through when something like this happens.
    After much prayer and thought, I choose to believe that a child’s soul is taken into to the palm of God’s hand and that the innocent’s awareness and pain are not there as this horrific act takes place. This helps me balance my belief in a just and merciful God. I admit this doesn’t answer the real, heart wrenching pain of a parent suffering such a loss, even for those with strong Faith. I have children and can’t imagine it.
    As much as I don’t understand many things, I do know that without my Faith , life would hopeless. For my own well being, I need my belief in God to cope with all the injustice and chaos of this world. I also have reason to believe because I’ve seen and experienced so many wonderful people in my life. When life’s adversities are beyond my control, I always return to prayer. Hopelessness is just too depressing an option for me.

    • What happens when the pain and suffering is not over quickly? What happens when it is spread out over many years? In those cases, we can’t say these children are “taken into the palm of God’s hand” and they are unaware of it. For example, young boys and girls are are forced into the sex trade? They don’t experience the same wonderful people that you do.

      For me, it’s easier to reason such things happen because God doesn’t exist, rather than try to grapple with why a good God would allow such atrocities. But I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you need your “belief in God to cope with all the injustice and chaos of this world.” I think you hit the nail on the head, THIS is why we humans NEED and bias ourselves towards God, because the idea helps to make life more bearable.

  77. Sal says:

    No answer to “why?”

    The scriptures do not answer why there is unjust suffering, especially to innocent little children. When we search for the answers in the bible we find there isn’t a clear why to suffering. The most famous sufferer of all time was a man named Job. According to the Bible, Job lost his family to war, his wealth to wind and fire, and his health to painful boils. Through it all, God never told why it was happening. As Job endured the accusation of his friends, heaven remained silent. When God finally did speak, He did not reveal that His archenemy Satan had challenged Job’s motives for serving God. Neither did the Lord apologize for allowing Satan to test Job’s devotion to God. Instead, God talked about mountain goats giving birth, young lions on the hunt, and raven in the nest. He cited the behavior of the ostrich, the strength of the ox, and the stride of the horse. He cited the wonders of the heavens, the marvels of the sea, and the cycle of the seasons.

    Sixteen times Job asked God “why”. God never answered Job’s why, in other words we should never ask God to explain or justify his actions or lack of actions. Once we begin to question God “why” we got our thinking in reverse. If he created us then we owe God our lives for the few or many years we live. He has the right to do what he wants foe us when he wants and how he wants. God owes no explanation. God is like our parents. How often does a child ask parents “why” and sometimes as parents we reply,”you are too young to understand”. No explanation is given. Many times the child will never understand. We should take refuge in the God’s ways are above our ways, the same as it was hard for a child to realize that our parents were in control.

    Job and his friends deliberate almost endlessly (sort of like bloggers). In the end God shows up, not to give Job and his posse answers but basically says “who are you to question me?” I know that sounds like an incredibly arrogant thing to say, but he is after all, the Creator of the Universe. If God created the Earth, the universe and all that’s held within, then wouldn’t it stand to reason that he would “own” it? If he owns it, can’t he do what he likes with it? For that matter, if he created all matter, then even my body is his. But at times I still think God should at least act in a moral way but He made the rules.

    Job was left to conclude that if God had the power and wisdom to create this physical universe there was reason to trust that same God in times of suffering. Through Job’s suffering we see a man who not only came to a deeper understanding of God but who also became a source of encouragement for people in every generation to follow.

    Also in the bible we find that Paul had responded to the question of God’s fairness. But he didn’t answer the question directly. His response is “Why are you even asking? Paul’s response was a stinging rebuke: “Who are, you, O man, to talk back to God? But don’t we have the right to ask God: “Why did you make me so I would get cancer or suffer so much? Why wasn’t I a clay pot with a different design?” Paul refused to directly answer “Why?” He defended God’s wisdom and justice. Paul insisted that no matter what our suffering, we must accept that God is wise, merciful and just. Paul was saying that God allows human suffering because he is God. God is so great, his thoughts so far above ours, that inferior human logic does not apply to his actions.

    Christ once did ask “my god, my god, why have you forsaken me”. Again, God did not answer. The outcome speaks for itself. For whatever reason why God made man to experience extreme pain and suffering he had the guts to take his own medicine. Christ has joined us in his suffering. Decent people will often suffer, and those who do terrible evils will often prosper. Jesus Christ pointed this out when he said that the rain falls on both the “righteous and the unrighteous”

    We can conclude that the why question is really the wrong question to ask. Everytime we ask a specific why question it takes us back to something that we can’t change. We must look forward by asking: What is the prupose? Unfair as it may sometimes seem? What future does God have beyond this ?

    I know that this lack of answering the why question wil not bring comfort to those who are grieiving. I’m not here to defend God because He is certainly not giving us any answers. I’m just presenting my personal convictions and the conclusions that I have come to. Perhaps faith is the only answer.

    • Hi Sal, thanks for your comment, that was very intelligently stated.

      You’ve touched on one popular explanation that (in my own words): “God has an explanation, we just don’t know what it is.” But before I address this possible explanation, I have to wonder briefly why we should even accept the story of Job as true? It’s written from an omniscient point of view, where the author somehow knows exactly what God, the Devil, and Job are all thinking. If I wrote a story like this you wouldn’t believe it was true, even if I said it was inspired. And if this were a story about Baal instead of God, you would quickly dismiss it. But I digress.

      Getting back to the point, I’m a firm believer in the evolution of religion. I see religion starting with a few simple ideas or stories, and growing and adapting over time. When it came to Abraham’s God, it probably became quickly apparent that this God’s cursings and blessings were completely arbitrary; He would punish the good and rewarded the evil. It was almost as if Abraham’s God didn’t even exist! So in order for this region to survive, it needed to find an explanation to this problem. Many may have been suggested, but the answer that seemed to work best was the one provided by the story of Job.

      But Job’s answer of: “God has an explanation, but He doesn’t owe you one, so shut the hell up” (again, paraphrasing just a bit) troubles me for couple reasons:

      Firstly, because it’s a non-answer, an escape hatch — it gets the religion out of having to solve the equation by providing an answer that’s impossible to disprove. We can’t PROVE that God doesn’t have a good reason for killing millions of kids each each year, nor can we prove that some of them need to get raped, murdered, or sold into the sex trade. Nor can we prove that some need to get diseases, though strangely, God lets us cure some of these diseases… so apparently they’re not needed. We’re just asked to assume God must have a good reason, as if we’ll get to heaven one day and find ourselves saying, “Wow, NOW I understand why you let my son get raped and murdered! You really ARE a loving God! Thank you for allowing that!” I can’t personally imagine a scenario where this would play out, but you’re welcome to hope against hope that it could.

      Secondly, this same tactic can be easily used to defend ANY god or religion against ANY logical absurdity. You just say that ____ (insert God or religion’s name here) allows for ____ (insert logical absurdity here) because he/she/it has his/her/its unknown reasons. For example, we could say that The God of Joseph Smith allowed for the Golden Plates used in translating the Book of Mormon to be forever hidden, not because they never actually existed, but because He has his reasons. It’s a total logical fallacy that can be applied to anything. There is no answer given, and the rational objection is forever subverted and substituted by an unfalsifiable claim.

      In order for religious ideas to continue to prosper and occupy mind after mind, they need to be able to defend themselves. When there is no logical answer to questions like these, religions defend themselves by resorting to logical fallacies and unfalsifiable claims.

      Moving on to the other justification you presented is that God “has the right to do what he wants foe us when he wants and how he wants. God owes no explanation.” I don’t think you really believe this is a logical conclusion. We are not paintings or jars of clay that are void of any feeling or emotions. Just because you create something, it does not logically follow that you have every right to torture it. Imagine if your neighbor created a living human-like creature of his own design (not from DNA, but… say… from PB&J), does he have the right to torture it? Imagine you see it naked in his front yard on all fours, and your neighbor is whipping it for fun as it writhes in pain, do you say nothing to stop him? Are you completely unsympathetic? Or do you reason that if you were this creation, you wouldn’t want that happening to YOU?

      Now, we can try to justify this suffering by saying that Jesus was willing to subject himself to torture, but this was HIS choice. I don’t recall ever being given a choice. Additionally, extreme gratuitous suffering is obviously NOT a requirement for all of us, or we would all be forced to endure the same amount of pain. So why not create a world where we all endure only the minimum amount of pain? Instead, the amount of pain we endure is completely arbitrary, just like God’s supposed blessings and curses. I think such randomness really only makes sense in a world where there is no moral administrator overseeing everything. I don’t want to believe it, but that would be the rational conclusion.

  78. Pazuzu says:

    Why does God allow children to suffer and die? Because he either hates them and enjoys their suffering or he simply does not exist. For instance, no parent, if he had the power to heal his sick child with a touch, would withhold his healing touch from his suffering child. And why not? Because that parent loves his child and wants him to be healthy, happy, and able to live a long and full life, and the idea of his child suffering through an incurable illness and dying early would destroy him. Again, no parent would withhold healing from his child if he had the power to do it.

    No, it takes a special kind of devil to do such a thing. And that devil is the “God” of the Bible, who mandates that mankind suffer for no reason other than existing – something else that is the fault of God, if he exists. Disgusting.

    • I don’t want to believe it, but that seems to be the logical conclusion.

    • Anonymous says:

      You’re saying that God is the devil? Do you believe in God or don’t you believe in God? You seems so convicted on something your not even sure is true.

    • DontBeIgnorantWEAREGODandweCANLOVEandstopTHERape says:

      Of course the fake bible god (who is NOW BECOME real in this world, becuause of so many people created and beleived in him out of the fear in their hearts) but of course he was a jealous god that the evil people created in order to control us…which in turns means he(bible god) hates his children. Jealously is not love. The bible admits to him being jealous…like that is some excuse for his henious crimes. Also he would be a hypocrate as well which is the worst kind of person. Humanty sucks, we gave in to fear from some evil ass fake god and now we are all doomed. And this BS god even demands FEAR out of his “Children” in order to get to Paradise…HAHA WHAT A DOUCHE! The god in the bible is evil as hell just like the idiots who wrote it. Do NOT believe in that sucker! Just as everyone said, would you let your children rape each other while you idly sit back and watch? I don’t think so.

  79. Sebbie says:

    I think we were wired to seek our source or a higher power. If that ‘source’ isn’t God… then what is it that we’re looking for? We definitely belong to something greater. Is it just an intelligent universe that came to be all on its own? It’s obvious we’ll never have all the answers. Imagine though, the day you die and face God and he asks why you rebelled against him and all you will be able to say is that he didn’t make it clear to us that he existed… to which he might reply something like “and you thought that with your feeble mind and flawed logic you could understand the magnitude of my greatness… what were you thinking???”
    … then off to hell you go. Would you ever consider believing and trusting in him to avoid the possibility of going to hell? It could play out many different ways after you die… but what if? I can’t say I’m bright enough to think I have all the answers… therefore, I just don’t think I’d risk it. In the real world, it’s fine to go against the current… but when facing an uncertain afterlife, well, there’s just too much at stake. So, I get it… you’re looking for answers, but you and I both know you will never have them. So, what will you decide to do? Are you waiting for that one person who will finally come along one day and answer the question about suffering? There is NO answer! It’s just not going to happen… so why stretch this out needlessly? The way I see it, you either decide not to believe in God and abandon this blog and live your life thinking what you want or decide to believe in God, leave this blog and live your life in faith… OR just continue dragging this on until you get bored of answering questions. I know that you know that nothing anyone here has said or will ever say can stand against your logic.. simply because the people who are in favor of God cannot offer an argument based on logic. It’s like apples and oranges… what kind of equation will ever yield a satisfiable answer when those are the variables? That said, I can only assume that you continue to debate the issue simply because you enjoy doing so…. otherwise, why else would you still be here. I mean, come one,,, you’re obviously a very smart guy. So, have you thought about it yet? When will you finally decide that God does not exist for you? You can’t go on like this forever you know……….
    I made my choice long ago. I believe in God… and Jesus… I do not question them or their teachings and I live a happy life knowing that I made a decision that works for me. And when adversity strikes, or when I see people around me suffering, I simply accept it. I hope you make up your mind soon… whatever it is you decide to do,,, because, frankly, it IS a form of suffering to life your life this way… not knowing which way to go… not knowing what to think. Make up your mind soon, 500 Questions, and enjoy life. Life is short.

  80. Hi Sebbie, thank you for your comment and concern.

    I can’t help but notice that you don’t really address the difficult subject of gratuitous suffering in children, other than to suggest that perhaps our minds are too feeble to understand it. But like I stated above, I find it unlikely that I would ever arrive in heaven and find myself saying, “‘There really WAS a good reason for allowing those children to be raped and murdered!” This tactic basically avoids giving an answer by forever deferring the question.

    Rather than addressing that question, you basically tell me that your reason for believing is that you fear the possibility of hell… and that believing just makes you happy. These are a little off-topic, but I’ll go ahead and address them anyway.

    The threat of hell (also known as Pascal’s wager) is a fear fallacy, it doesn’t actually prove anything, it just threatens you with what will happen if you don’t cooperate. The reason this kind of argument isn’t very helpful is because many different religions issue the same threat, and there’s no way to distinguish who’s threat is actually correct. Muslims, for example, say that if you believe Jesus is God you’ll go to hell. Are they right? Who knows, because the threat does not provide any actual evidence. Even various Christian denominations insist that other denominations are going to hell (using verses like Matt 7:22-23 to justify their claim). Are they right? Who knows. We might say, “But OUR belief is more logical!” Really? Because it doesn’t even explain why children must suffer. We’re asked to wait until the afterlife for this absurdity to be explained.

    So if we can’t tell which religion/denomination is correct by this threat alone, what shall we use? You insist that “people who are in favor of God cannot offer an argument based on logic”, so using any sort of logic is also apparently out of the question. So how do we know what is actually true? Some say if you pray earnestly about what is true, then Satan is not allowed to interfere with this question, and God’s Holy Spirit will confirm his truth with you in your heart. I’m speaking, of course, of Mormons; millions of whom claim that God has confirmed for them in their hearts the truth of the Book of Mormon.

    So if we can’t use threats of punishment, logic, or prayer to determine truth, how about happiness?

    Happiness is pretty subjective, and as George Bernard Shaw put it, “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.” The sober man, while unhappy, is actually thinking more clearly than the drunk man. But religion in and of itself doesn’t make everyone happy. Take, for example, Rick Warren, author of “The Purpose Driven Life”; Rick just lost his 27 year old son to suicide this weekend. Why? Sometimes religion and prayer are not enough to keep us happy.

    So why do I personally keep asking questions? I’m not sure, but I think I may suffer from what’s becoming known as “Religious Trauma Syndrome” (RTS). Believers who take their religion very seriously, and then come to the intellectual conclusion that their religion is false, often suffer fallout from years of religious indoctrination. So like many Christians, I feel the need to question all those things that I once believed, and perhaps prove to myself that hell doesn’t really exist. (Religion only works as long as you continue to believe in it, then it messes with your head.)

    By the way, there’s some other new interesting research that suggests people who lean more on intuition for answers tend to be more likely to believe in God, while those who rely on logic are more likely to be skeptical. My internal battle seems to be waged between these two ways of thinking.


    • Sebbie says:

      You’re right. Truth be told… I can’t address something that may eventually disrupt my way of thinking. I don’t want to end up like you… questioning it all. That would drive me insane, I think. I’d rather live in my bubble and not waste my energy trying to figure something that in the end will bring me nothing good; nothing but frustration. Besides, even if I accept living a delusion,,, it gives me peace and it harms no one. I believe that trusting in God and trying to follow Jesus’ footsteps makes me a better person. So what’s the worst that can happen? Perhaps someday we will discover the truth… and then I will probably just say, “Well, I spent my life believing in something that brought out the best in me.. and as a result, I enriched the lives of others” … so whatever happens after I die, I will be satisfied in knowing that I lived my life well and treated people with love…. and that gives me great comfort. And I understand you don’t necessarily need to be Christian to do this… but it just so happens to be the life I fell right into… and what feels right for me at this moment. I fear questioning too much because I prefer to stay calm. We’ve enough nonsense in this world to deal with and the last thing I want is to add to it by being torn in my mind as to whether God exists or not. In the end, what would it do for me anyway? I still choose to live a life of good regardless, so ultimately hell for me isn’t really an option because it’s not in my nature to do evil.

      How do you suppose your life will change if you discover unequivocal proof that God doesn’t exist? Will you then say to yourself, well then, now that I know for a fact that there is no hell (or heaven, for that matter) I can do as I choose because I won’t be held accountable for my words or actions? FREE WILL? Is that what it will do for you… make you truly FREE? … because I don’t see any other benefit. And even then, are you really free…..Free from religion maybe,,, but far from being free form this prision of a society we live in. You said it yourself,, a Godless universe is an indifferent universe. So, you’re basically on your own at this point. And perhaps you will free yourself from the ‘nonsense’ of worrying about why God would allow children to suffer and die. Yet coming to the realization that God is not responsible for children’s suffering, because he doesn’t exist, will NEVER make the suffering of these children any less or make it go away. I wonder what would happen to the world if everyone just one day decided that there was no god.

      In any case, sorry for not addressing the question posed in this blog. I just wanted to understand what you thought you would gain out of this whole thing. I’ve read your other blogs too and I must say you pose some VERY interesting questions without a doubt. I did my best to try to read it as objectively as I could… but I must confess at times it was difficult because of the simple fact your logic IS flawless. So I found myself starting to question things too… but then quickly dismissing it and sticking to my guns, for the sake of tranquility.

      I’m sorry about your RTS but it does appear that you’re at the point of no return…. and I can only wish that reading this feedback will somehow help to alleviate the stress it’s causing you… and that one day you will not have the need to get back in here to continue to fuel the disquietude.

      I’ll check out the ‘new interesting research’ link. Thanks!

      • Thanks for your understanding and your admission. You raise some thought-provoking points here. What good DOES it do to ultimately know the truth if it brings no greater benefit? And what harm does it do to remain in ignorance of that truth?

        I think the search for truth is probably its own reward. It’s the reason that science even exists, and why shows like “Myth Busters” are so popular. We humans long to understand, and knowing the truth allows us to make better decisions.

        You’re right that knowing the truth won’t take away from the pain one feels when losing a child, but the truth is still better than a comforting lie, because it has the potential to prevent other tragedies. The truth tells us: “Stop wasting your time on prayer and tithing, which accomplishes nothing for childhood suffering, and instead invest in finding cures for things that are causing other children to suffer.” For example, childhood mortality has dropped by 50% in the past 2 decades, not because we’ve finally figured out how to cast out demons (as Jesus might have suggested) or because we successfully funded another mega-church, but because we’ve invested in educating other countries. It’s science and knowledge that worked to prevent these deaths, not more knowledge of God.

        What other harm does it do? Well, there’s a long history of religion-based wars, such as the crusades, for starters. And there are the controversial things that the Bible seems to support, such as slavery, witch killings, segregation, genital mutilation, and denying rights to women and gays. If the Bible isn’t correct, then we’ve made some horrible decisions because of it! There’s also the denial of reality, substituting it with ideas like creationism, or not caring for the environment because the rapture “is going to happen any day now!” And there are folks like me, who suffer because of the ideas and threats that religion has put in our heads. Believing in the Bible, if it’s not true, can cause lots of harm.

        I don’t think there could ever be “unequivocal proof that God doesn’t exist”, no more than there could be unequivocal proof that aliens or invisible fairies do not exist (because it’s hard to prove a negative). There is only an increased certainty that you are correct in your thinking.

        And you’re right, this uncertainty does bother me, and I wish the truth were easier to come by. While I’d love to believe that God is real and that I’ll have eternal life with my family, it’s more important for me to know the truth than to believe in something that may just be a comfortable lie. But for the most part, nothing has really changed. I miss the idea of God and I no longer pray, but I still treat others the way I want to be treated; I now support science more than religion, and I support things like the rights of gays to marry. And I certainly value this life as if it were my only one. But perhaps most importantly, I no longer wrestle with questions like “Why would a good God allow suffering in innocent people and creatures?” because I know the answer… or, at least I think I know. ;-)

  81. Sebbie says:

    I think it should be easier for you to say God doesn’t exist seeing that you are a person who relies on logic. Why are you even in a battle between both ways of thinking when your reasoning screams out the undeniable truth to you: that nothing and no one in this world will convince you of God’s existence. You worked it out perfectly when you talked about Adam and Eve… and then God allowing children to suffer and die. I guess what I’m trying to get at is, we already know the reasons why you believe there is no God… so what are the reasons why you believe there is? Is it just a side effect of many years of religious indoctrination? Like.. a side of you that operates on faith being the basis of your beliefs? That’s really interesting. How does that even exist within the same mind that draws its conclusions based on logic? Honestly, I don’t even comprehend how two diametrically opposed ways of thinking can co-exist. Or is it that you’re 95% leaning towards atheism,, and the remaining 5% is an automatic, embedded response to an idea which is in fact inherent and exists outside of any indoctrination or mental conditioning. Like I said in my first post…. I believe we are predisposed to search for God, because he must exist.

    • Anonymous says:

      JESUS FREAK!!!!

    • “Is it just a side effect of many years of religious indoctrination?”

      Yes. If I were a robot and completely detached from my emotions, I would probably quickly conclude the notion of God was illogical and move on. ;-) But there are things like the origin and complexity of life that do make me wonder…

      It may be that we are predisposed to believing in Gods, that’s an interesting question I may have to explore later. But if so, God doesn’t seem to direct people as to which kind of god (or gods) to serve. I think it’s probably more like that we humans are just naturally curious, and the big question of “Where did we come from?” has always weighed heavily on our minds. Thousands of years ago, a designer probably seemed like a reasonable conclusion.

    • DontBeIgnorantWEAREGODandweCANLOVEandstopTHERape says:

      Sebbie, unfortunately you are a selfish victim of fear, as many are. You are duped by evil and while you think you’re living in a “Bubble” well that is your own hallucination because this is no fantasy bubble. This is WAR and EVIL and RAPE and you have chosen to side with that evil out of your fear of burning for eternity. This is the unfortunate choice of us humans which will lead us deeper into hell. But I can tell you that you ARE CORRECT when you say GOD IS REAL, but Why believe in an Evil piece of crap God, when you could believe in an all Loving God who DOES NOT EVER CAUSE TORTURE UPON ANYONE OR ANYTHING…that is the god I worship!! NO ONE ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  82. Sebbie says:

    Sorry, I added another post without realizing you had just answered the previous one. I apologize for the disconnect. Anyhow, I respect your thinking and I agree on many of the points you included in your new post….. and I wish you clarity or enlightenment…whichever comes first in your quest for answers. All I have left to express is my gratitude for you taking the time to respond to my posts. You are a very interesting person and you bring up a lot of valid points. I’m very happy to have encountered such a first-class individual, even if it happened in a blog. Much love and success for you and your family.

  83. noblasphemy says:

    There are two parts to the answer; the first part, you’ve heard before. Suffering exists because it is a fallen world, and by giving mankind free will, they sometimes choose evil. That leads to the second part of the answer, which is, what you see with your worms-eye view is not all of reality. We are talking about eternity here. We all suffer in various ways as we move through this life, and it deepens our character if we learn from it and grow from it. Now, when children suffer, it breaks our hearts, but I do not believe there is any rememberance of the event. It’s probably similar to a caterpillar and a butterfly – the two states are so different, and God, IMHO, would not prolong the bad memories of life as a caterpillar to haunt the butterfly. So it happens, yes it is horrible, but it is relatively a brief instant when compared to eternity.
    We don’t see the entire picture; we definitely do not have the God’s Eye view of the situation. You’re trying to figure out why God doesn’t just wipe out the athiests who are leading people astray; well, I don’t think God is in any hurry. Everything will work out the way it is meant to, and though you want to judge God for the suffering you see on this planet, you, as a mere man created by God, are in no position to judge.
    We don’t get to understand everything either, being clay pots created by a potter. I know you want to understand, and for you, the lack of understanding is enough to cause you to give up your salvation/faith. But to me, when I don’t understand, that’s where faith kicks in.
    And there is plenty I DO understand that strengthens my faith; there are the experiences where He has spoken to me through living scriptures; some have never read the word with an open mind, but it is not called the living word for no reason. Through unusual experiences. Through the design in this world and solar system. Why does a perfect solar eclipse happen with the earth, moon, and sun, and not with the other 166 moons and 7 other planets in our solar system? Why is a dusty heap like Jerusalem still at the center of contention in the world today? How is it that the Jewish people were scattered, and then regathered there, language and religion intact, after 2000 years? How do we account for changed and reformed lives (like Son of Sam and Mickey Robinson, for example)? There are literally hundreds of bits of evidence like these.

    • mark p. says:

      See, the quandary for the author is that it is a never ending “repeating myself in answer to repetition of statements made over and over….” .Tired head. : – (

    • Ya, it’s kinda been covered before, but I’ll sum it up:

      1) The Bible itself shows us that gratuitous suffering is not a requirement for free will to exist (for example: Adam and Eve made a free will choice to reject God in the absence of any excessive punishments, and Lucifer apparently denied God even in heaven).

      2) Yes, eternity IS a long time, but the evil that was committed/allowed will ALWAYS be evil. There will never be a time in 10 billion years when you can look back and say “That event was not evil”, no matter how much God compensates us for it, or even if we can no longer remember it. The moment God allows a single unnecessary or gratuitous evil to exist, He stops being benevolent. Animals also suffer gratuitously, but their suffering is not rewarded with eternal life, nor do they need to suffer so they can exercise free will.

      3) Yes, our worm’s-eye-view is limited. Are you suggesting that you may someday arrive in heaven and say, “Wow God, it really WAS absolutely necessary for all those children to suffer!” Was it? What about all the children that suffered and died from polio? Was this ABSOLUTELY necessary in God’s view? Because right now, we’re ridding the world of polio, so if God sees polio as necessary, we logically we should stop vaccinations and allow children to continue to suffer, because it’s important to God. But if it is important, why hasn’t God stopped us from preventing polio? And if God allows us to stop this suffering, then it obviously isn’t necessary, and probably never was.

      We can try to avoid the question by saying, “God will explain suffering in the afterlife,” but all we have to go on in THIS life is the information God gives us, and if he DOES care about these children, yet behaves as if He doesn’t, then the message we observe is that He doesn’t care — that He is indifferent. If this isn’t true, then He has deceived us and led us to believe a lie.

      5) God may be the potter and we may be the clay, but His benevolence obligates Him to… well… be benevolent!

      • noblasphemy says:

        Hi – to point 1: Adam and Eve most certainly did suffer for their decision to eat the apple, namingly they “died” physically, childbirth would be in pain, farming would be harder, etc. Lucifer did suffer for his sin of pride and rebellion also, being cast from his position in heaven and ultimately to suffer death.
        2. Two responses to this; one, the event may look evil from this perspective right now, but not be so evil with different glasses on. For example, denying food to an overeater could be viewed as evil until the facts are known and we realize that the denial was necessary to save a life. Two, the event itself may in fact be evil and it may be that God allowed it but it was necessary for His larger plan to be carried out, a plan which we cannot see the edges of because of our perspective.
        3. I am not personally hoping for God to reveal why evil things happened; if it were explained to me, great, but I recognize that any being who can create 100 billion galaxies probably knows an infinite amount more about what is necessary than I do; I accept my position as a speck of dust with some small power of reasoning, in this vast universe, and look to what good service I can do in His kingdom.
        4. The message you perceive is “he is indifferent” but the message I perceive is that “He is above my understanding”.
        5. And my point is that His benovolence may be more benovolent than you think, it’s just your perception and insistence on understanding it in its fullness with your present-day, earth-bound goggles and 3-pound brain that are limiting you. It is also true that true growth often involves suffering; when I failed a class in college, it motivated me to work harder. A person who suffers as a herion addict can recover and later be a great help to those they meet who are struggling with addiction. Watching your child die of a disease makes you more empathetic towards others in the same predicament. As long as we take these trials in the right spirit, our hearts grow and become softer towards God and humankind.

  84. noblasphemy says:

    Sorry I tired your head, Mark – just trying to be clear on my position. I’m willing to accept that I am not going to understand every nuance of this existence. One of the OPs other questions is “why didn’t God make us smarter” which illustrates that we are not that smart, so why do we think we can solve all of these heavy questions with our three-pound brain?

    • mark p. says:

      Fair enough. I have no problem with healthy discourse and exploring different points of view with our “three pound brain”. Also, in your defense and others, it is a arduous task to read everything that is written within this blog and stay fresh. Obviously, there is duplicity with many views here and the author, or others will respond in kind. So, I apologize for my choice of words and everyone carry on with a constructive exchange here. : – )

  85. Sal says:

    Sinless Free-will World

    Could God really create a world where men were free but would never sin to cause evil and suffering. Can freedom without sin be possible? After all Jesus was free to sin and did not. Men are free to sin and often do not. Heaven will certainly contain free people who will never sin. Two thirds of all angels were free to sin and did not. Adam and Eve were free to sin and for a long time did not. God himself is said to have a free will and can not sin. So why can’t God create all free moral beings who will never sin? God could do anything. What if God made every angel and every human with a free will like Jesus Christ, then of course nobody would sin. But Jesus is God himself. Jesus is the word of God. He is the uncreated. God cannot change. He is God in the flesh. Jesus did not have a separate free will from God. Jesus only knew love. He is love eternally. He is from eternity. God has need for nothing else. An infinite being cannot change because nothing can be added or subtracted from an infinite. If God is the same from all eternity, it is impossible that He could violate His own loving nature. Man is not like God. If God made all humans with the free-will the same as Jesus then all of us will be the infinite uncreated God and not a separated free-will created being.

    Imagine paradise with the free-will to never sin. Death would have to be abolished as well if sorrow and suffering were eliminated. But what would we do? How would we live? Can we obey the Ten Commandments? Can we live absent from the seven deadly sins of Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride? Can we live opposite the way of being selfish, impatient, arrogant, self-centered, bossy, hate, dishonest, vengeful, impolite, intolerant, quarrelsome, narrow-minded, materialistic, thoughtless, inconsiderate, resentful, vulgar, vain, overcritical, etc? Can we be strong enough to have the free-will to avoid all these temptations? If Jesus is the benchmark of how we should live, can we actually follow his example? Jesus is the one who said that to even think about sin is the same as doing the act. Can we truly live to this high standard and not sin and obey all of God’s teachings. Given the nature of free choices, given the many temptations, given the significant number of persons and given enough infinite time, one might conclude that not every human will obey. After all, one third of all angels were cast out of heaven.

    Why did the angels and Adam and Eve disobey? Adam was surrounded by every good thing that God created and only had to abstain from the fruit of one tree. He was in paradise and lacked nothing. Yet he still failed. Jesus on the other hand was led out into the dry and desolate desert where he went without food for forty days. He had every reason to fail and yet he succeeded. Both were tempted. Both made choices. Both knew the Father’s will. One rebelled, the other obeyed. Jesus was tempted to sin and did not. Adam and Eve were tempted but did sin. Jesus did what Adam Couldn’t. Had Jesus failed, God Himself would have failed. But He did not. He resisted the temptation of the flesh.

    Are temptations the cause of sin? Many believe that free-will is the cause of sin yet others believe we do not have a free will to sin if God is an omnipotent and omniscient God. Jesus said to his disciples, “There will always be temptations to sin.” Temptation is not sin; it gives us the choice to sin. Stands to reason that if we never have the temptations we will never have the bad choices. Prior to using the free-will to sin we need the temptation first. When we yield to temptation then we sin. Temptation(s) Appears in the Bible 23 times and the bible says it is Satan who is tempting us everyday. “The devil made me do it”. The Bible says, ‘Lead me not into temptation.’ Well, the best way not to be led into temptation is to take the Tempter away! Isn’t it? To remove temptations in paradise, God would have to remove Satan as he did in heaven. God would not have to remove Free-will. Free-will without the temptations can exist in a sinless world. In that sense we can have a sinless free-will world similar to Eden’s garden before Satan arrived.

    Satan is everything that is wrong with the world. Whether you believe Satan is an angel or a metaphor God certainly can kill Satan or temptations, but God is supposed to be all loving, so because he loves his creations and he created Lucifer, he can’t bring himself to do it, I mean, if you are an all loving father, would you kill your son because you don’t agree with him, or if he doesn’t agree with you? God would be destroying himself as a loving God as well. If God destroy evil by doing evil he is strengthening Satan. If God just reached out with His power and struck Satan, other created beings could say He did it because He could not win by love, and so He had to resort to force and fear. He would have to rule by fear, rather than love. Basically if God has simply abolished Satan, then everyone would be forced to worship God out of fear rather than making a choice to worship God out of love.

    Also Satan is an angel and angels are “spirit beings.” Spirit is immortal and cannot die. But the bible does state that Satan will be bound for 1000 years and sent to the Lake of Fire. So why doesn’t God do it now? Why can’t god just say, ‘you know what Satan, Screw you, you’re gone. It seems to me that if God wanted to prevent sin he could have destroyed Satan before Adam and Eve ever came along. God could have done away with not only Satan, but Adam and Eve also after they sinned. He could have destroyed Satan immediately , or just not have created Lucifer at all. Satan was cast out of heaven after Adam and Eve were created, because God said the Creation was good. The Bible tells us that Lucifer was in Eden and was still without sin on that day.

    He could have prevented Satan from entering the Garden of Eden but that would have left Adam and Eve sinless by default. You could not say they chose not to sin if no chance to sin ever presented itself. If God had simply just taken out Satan from the beginning what would that tell us? It would say that he is afraid that Satan was right about being able to do a better job to give what the people want.. Perhaps God is allowing Lucifer to prove to other angels that Satan’s way is wrong. If God eliminated Satan immediately, then they would never know how it will turn out. The same reason America doesn’t nuke other evil countries. Other enemies would say that America is hypocritically cruel and harsh in its pursuit to spread democracy or love. Or imagine you have a business and your son told you that he can run it better. As an all loving father, I think you will let this ambitious son with his new methods give it a try. If not, then how would you prove to others that his ways will not work?

    Imagine if, after Lucifer told the angels that God really didn’t care about their needs, God then destroyed Lucifer. What would those other angels think? Would they still love God, and serve Him out of love? Or would they think, “Maybe Lucifer was right. If God cared about us, why did He kill Lucifer? Now He might kill us, too.”

    What if we see that the devil is a tool in God’s hands to work for our good? We are tempted so we can succeed in overcoming temptation and prove it can be done. We experience trials and our character is formed. We overcome evil with good because if there were no evil there would be no demonstration of good. We are weak and we stumble and sin and this adversity makes us stronger. Perhaps God is keeping Satan alive so He can test our love for Him. How else can we prove our loyalty? Can you imagine how furious Satan gets every time we resist temptations and how happy that makes God? But this doesn’t square with God’s omniscience since God can automatically and infallibly predict what it is that we would do in response to any scenario.

    We know that if God were to kill the devil thereby eliminating evil in the world, God would be eliminating your ability to choose evil. Perhaps Satan offers no better way for an all loving God to defeat evil because when God through his people permanently triumphs over evil then evil will have been defeated without destroying free will. If after evil is removed without destroying free-choice then free creatures’ remains in its proper state.

    For whatever reason, God is allowing evil to exist and he will not intervene to prevent it. Could God create a world where men were free but God would stop Satan to prevent suffering? Why couldn’t God stop Satan and prevent physical evil and suffering? For example, why doesn’t God intercept the murderer bullets? Why does He not turn the assassin’s knife into jelly or a rioters club to cotton? Actually men really don’t want God to intercept every act or thought. No one wants to get a headache every time he thinks against God. No one wants his or her mouth filled with soap every time we speak against God. Continual interference would make life impossible. Chaos would result. Imagine children throwing knives at parents knowing they will turn to rubber or parents driving through stop signs knowing God would create air shields. Intervention would grow to the point that would effectively remove human freedom and responsibility. God could intervene and heal everybody instantly but he will not work that way because intervention will be taken for granted.

    Despite hundreds of millions of prayers, this god couldn’t even kill dictators such as Hitler and Stalin and save hundreds of million lives let alone Lucifer. Oh Lord, so many wasteful senseless deaths throughout history and then every year letting ten million children die and suffer needlessly is too much of a high price to pay to keep Satan alive. To make matters worse, Satan will enter into the Antichrist’s body, and will reign over the earth in a time of tribulation. My God how much worse can it get. God, I sure hope you know what you are doing.

  86. Sebbie says:

    Just listen to this… even if it’s only the first 30 minutes.

    • rautakyy says:

      It seems Lee Strobel is an a-hole. He says he had no moral without a god. His own daugther was affraid of him. What an ogre!

      He says all religions in the world boil to one question about the resurrection of Jesus. What has that got to do with Buddhism? Even if Jesus story was not true, or if it was never presented to us (like it has not been to billions of people) that would not prove wether or not the claims by Buddhists are true or false.

      There are no eye-wittness accounts of death, or resurrection of Jesus. There are hearsay stories in the Gospels, but even if they were eye-wittness stories, that would not prove they are true. And exeptional claims like the resurrection of Jesus would require exeptional evidence, but none exists. At least Lee Strobel presents none.

      He claims he did not give any other credence to the Gospels, than any other ancient historical “documents”, but still he claims that the death of Jesus was a fact. When the source is obviously at least partly a myth and could be such entirely, just like most such historical documents.

      First E:
      Mr. Strobel says Jesus was whipped before the crucifixion. So what? Everyone else executed in this fashion was whipped also. And even so from Josephus we learn, that men could survive crucifixion. And we do know that it often took even days before the crucified died. But according to the Gospels, Jesus was taken down during the same afternoon he was crucified.

      He goes on to describe the asphyxia effect, of popping up and down to breathe, but it takes quite a while of hanging before one has to start doing that and often the crucified had a bit of a stool, so they would not need to do that, nor to die of that cause. There are several possible reasons for wich the crucified died and it is mere folly to claim by the Gospels as a source we could know what was the cause of death of this Jesus character in them. Certainly the Gospels do not describe the popping up and down, so it is silly if some medical “expert” has claimed to Lee that the symptoms are clearly described in the Gospels. In longer crucifixions one of the argued main causes for death is actually death by drowning, as when your hands are held up long enough fluids start to build up in your lungs. Gospels say, that Jesus was stabbed to the side just prior to being taken down and that he bled blood and water wich indicates that he was suffering from this build up of fluids in his lungs, but also that he was still alive as the dead do not bleed.

      Mr. Strobel has the audacity to claim Jesus was declared dead by multiple experts. Wich experts are those? The women present at the event who are said to have observed it from far back? The Roman soldiers who took him down, because the Jews (who alledgedly just few hours before so eager to get him executed) asked him to be taken down because of the Passover festivities, or because of the storm? If the soldiers were legionaries, the women had no means to know what the soldiers concluded between each other in latin. Same goes if the soldiers were (as is more likely) palatia guards or auxilia mercenaries it is just as if not even more unlikely the women or any Jews present had any idea what they were talking about. But one thing is sure, as long as the Gospels are honest, the soldiers knew their commander in chief Pontius Pilatus had wanted to save this man’s life. It was only to please the conservative Jew bigots, that he had ordered the execution to take place at all.

      Most atheists, skeptics and agnostics I know do not subscribe to the Jesus being dead when taken down from the cross, because they – with good reason – think the entire story is a fabricate myth, or that we can not know what really happened. But if he was then most likely the rest of the story of him being alive afterwards is a fable.

      Strobel claims there are several sources of outside historical support to the claim Jesus was dead when taken down from the cross, but none of those writers was present at the event. Just like none of the Gospel writers. He mentions only Josephus and Tacitus. Josephus quote is most propably a later addition to his history of the Jewish rebellion, but even if it is not it still is just hearsay. Tacitus was not even born when the events took place, but if we are to take Tacitus at face value, we should also take into account his claim that the Christians have all sorts of immoral habits and that there were dogheaded people beyond Sarmatia. Why do we not think there were dogheaded people? Because it is just as wild claim as that an unemployed carpenter resurrected.

      Strobel quotes Gerd Lüderman for writing, that the death of Jesus as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable, and Strobel makes a point about it, that this is an exeptional claim. As it is. In what context Lüderman made this claim is not told, but it is a wild claim indeed, since the sources are so vague and the circumstances at the execution so exeptional from the common practice. The Gospels say that the soldiers did not brake the leg bones of Jesus because he was allready dead, but it was common custom to brake the bones of even dead crucified. And if Joseph of Arimathea had bribed the soldiers to give him the body of Jesus, why had he not bribed them to save him. For the sake of the soldiers and Jesus everything had to look like he died, because the soldiers (and Joseph) might have been punished, if it was known and the enemies of Jesus would have jumped him, if they thought he survived, but obviously as only one Gospel claims there were guards and a seal at the tomb, it is a fabrication. If the tomb was sealed and guarded, what the hell were the women doing there after the passover with their emblaming oils? Clearly, Joseph had ample possibilities to transfer Jesus from the grave during the passover.

      Second E:
      Strobel claims that the early appearance of the legend makes it more plausible. Like all the legends about the Moonlanding being a staged trick had to be true, because they were invented allready when Neil Armstrong’s lifetime? As if there were no legends about Elvis allready in his lifetime and some soon after his death? Like fans claiming to have seen Elvis alive?

      The fact that contemporaries believed something, does not mean by any means, that what they believed was true. The fact that theologians claim the “creed” could be dated to 2-5 years. How could they do that, and even if they could, what then? He refers to a scholar who claims that it takes decades for a legend to emerge. That is pure poppycock. How many legends have you heard about the 9/11 attacks? How many people believe those? How many years has it been from the death of founder of Scientology and how many people have found it true enough to accept it as their one true religion. People are innovative in making up legends and they are gullible. And Lee Strobel is using that to make up a point, wich would not stand in front of any other crowd, exept totally ignorant people or people who allready believe his point even without his feeble evidence.

      Strobel says that since many of the parts of this legend are so old, that the contemporaries could have pointed out the errors in this story. Well, who says they did not? Contemporaries are pointing out weaknesses of Scientology, but yet the movement keeps growing.There are anciet stories about the father of Jesus being actually a legionary named Pantera. And the mere fact, that Matthew had to insert into the story guards at the tomb tells, that people had noticed, that the facts that someone alledgedly dying on a cross and an empty tomb do not lead to the assumption he resurrected, but rather that he was taken from the tomb (alive or dead).

      Third E:
      So if the entire story is not a fabrication, the tomb was empty. Then what? He tells us that the contemporaries bribed the soldiers who guarded the tomb to say they fell asleep and the diciples stole the body of Jesus. Well if there were guards at the tomb, why only one Gospel bothers to mention them at all? Is Joseph of Arimathea much more likelier person to take Jesus from the tomb, than any of the diciples who seem to take the resurrection as an explanation to why Jesus is still alive after the execution, none of them even bothered to attend?

      Strobel says, the Romans wanted Jesus dead, but according to the Gospel this is not at all what they wanted. Maybe they saved Jesus deliberately to use their common tactics to “divide and conquer”. Jesus was useful asset for the Roman officials in his lifetime. He was into non-violence, he said pay your taxes (to the emperor) and he divided the Jewish people who could have stood as one behind their religious leaders in a case of revolt (wich did follow few years later).

      Lee Strobel says: “liers make bad martyrs”. Perhaps, but gullible people make very good martyrs. People who have committed their entire lives to lies (like nazism) make a lot of martyrs.

      Fourth E:
      Strobel goes on to claim that in his opinion the “most logical” explanation for the tomb of Jesus to be empty is that he “physically rose from the dead”. I find this absurd. It is not logical to conclude something, wich has traditionally been expected to be accepted by faith alone. Even the wildest conspiracy theory we could cook up about what actually happened would be more logical, than a resurrection, as long as it does not include anything as unnatural as a resurrection. Even aliens abducting Jesus from the tomb is more logical, than that he resurrected from the dead because he is the flesh and blood son of the creator of the universe. Sorry, but that is how logic works for you.

      These Jesus stories of him appearing to skeptics seem to be very important to the believers, but that is exactly what you would put in a story to make it more plausible, if you were to cook up one. is it not? To the contemporaries of Jesus the idea of flesh and blood son of a god resurrecting was not such an exeptional claim. In the Roman empire there were many such deities and their alledged sons. From the pharaos who would resurrect once a year in a sacred ritual, to kings and rulers like Alexander the Great who alledgedly was the son of Zeus, even though everyone knew hif dad was king Philip. Even the Roman emperors could trace their lineage to gods. But the fact that it was natural for them to accept resurrection among plausible explanations, was because they had no idea of celldecomposition of the dead. Or just about any other medical facts. The miracle was much less miraculous to them, than it should be to our contemporaries.

      If 515 eye-wittnesses really claimed they saw Jesus after his execution, and only three, or four hearsay eye-wittnesses claim he died. Then obviously we should take the claim of the bigger group of eye-wittnesses and not conclude, that both groups are right and he magically resurrected. However, we do not have 515 eye-wittness accounts in the Bible as Strobel shamelessly claims, but just a claim that about 515 people saw him. These are not eye-wittness accounts by any logic.

      If Lüderman makes both the claim that beyond doubt Jesus died on the cross and that he appeared as risen Christ to Peter and others, then his claim is that the diciples hallucinated Jesus. Well, even without the expert on hallucinating Strobel claims to have interviewed, this seems like a silly assumption. It is ridiculous, that such a claim would even need an expert opinion to be demonstrated false. Yet, Strobel openly admits to have believed so himself. Now, that proves Strobel is a nincompoop. And so is Lüderman, if his explanation of the hallucination is not better founded than just thrown into thin air as a loophole. But, if the expert Strobel refers to, really said to him, that the 515 people having the same hallucination would be bigger miracle, than the resurrection itself, it proves that the expert is even a bigger a nincompoop. Because, as I said, we do not have 515 wittness accounts. Just a claim of them from writings that oddly enough seem to be different written versions of the same hearsay story. And because it is actually less miraculous, that more than 500 people thought their hallucinations were similar enough to validate a story, than that a dude actually rose up from the dead. And I do expect, that Lûderman has explained how he thinks Jesus disappeared from the tomb, though Stroble plays it up (deliberately dishonestly, if he is not even a bigger nincompoop) as if Lüderman had just forgotten that bit.

      At this point Strobel starts to call the Gospels “exellent historical data”, wich is to say rather silly, since they are full of all sorts of magical and unnatural events like miracles. We do not know, if Jesus had a brother James, nor was he a skeptic, but even if we accept that might be the case, his turning is just about as convincing as any other person turning to a religion. And why not? For James this meant glory among the adherents of this new cult, when by the enemies of the cult, he would have been hated anyway just for being the brother of the main cult object. Anybody turning into any cult or religion, be it Saul of Tarsus or Lee Strobel, is not evidence, that there is anything true about the teachings of the cult. But both of them seem to have made their mark in history and living through that religion since being convinced by it, so it obviously served them to turn.

      It could very well be, that Jesus died on the cross and somebody took his body. And that later one of the apostoles had a hallucination of meeting Jesus, and the other stories of people meeting with him were just extrapolations to the story to bolster it up. I personally think it is more likely that Jesus happened to be one of those guys we know survived the crucifixion, but it was explained by the contemporaries who had invested their lives in him before the execution event, that he actually resurrected. And most of it seems like a legend anyway. The multiple contradicting versions of the Gospel are exactly what we could expect from a verbal tradition being written down few decades later after the actual events by members of the cult who allready believed the mythical parts to be true. I bet even a good number of theologians might agree with that analysis even, if they have their own faith on the line.

      Contrary to what Strobel claims, the diciples are in fact just the kind of crowd who would cling on to any straw of hope, that the dude, who was so precious to them and to whom they invested their reputation and lives when they expected him to absolve their nation from the empire, eventually would prove to have some deeper meaning, than just die in the hands of the empire.

      Strobel claims that the belief of the diciples is somehow different from the belief of some terrorists who are willing to die for their cause. But that is silly, since none of the diciples was present at the execution, or the resurrection. Their faith is exactly the same as that of an ss-man, who had met with Hitler and was willing to throw away his life in the streets of Berlin for the “final victory”. Exactly, exept that, unlike the diciples, we actually know such ss-men really existed.

      Besides how do we know, that when Jesus alledgedly said he was the son of a god, did he mean it in the polytheistic way like Greeks and most people within the Roman empire would have understood it as a flesh and blood son, like Hercules, or a righteous man following their god’s orders like the Jews of that day would have understood the claim?

      Apostole Paul wrote: “If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile…” But he had not wittnessed the event. He took it by hearsay. And expected his readers to do the same.

      If this is the best case Lee Strobel could make after two years of research, then what is wrong with him, that I could totally debunk it easily enough?

      I’d say he was such an a-hole and lived so immoral life (as he himself confesses to), that he was in actual need to find morality and forgiveness from any source. His cultural heritage led him to research Christianity, but if he was a Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, or what ever other denomination, that is the most likeliest place he would have found it. Does this mean Christianity is a religion meant for the gullible and the vicked, who are in constant need to be guided by arbitrary commands and forgiven? Instead of people who seek for the truth and who have moral backbone?

      Just because a myth has a beneficial effect in the life of a person, or any number of people, proves nothing about the truth value of the myth, but the damaging effect of the same myth to the lives of many, speaks tons about the truth of it.

  87. Sebbie says:

    For anyone else who has the time to see this second video. This one deals with the issue of pain and suffering. It’s just interesting to see another person’s perspective. Especially when that person was once an atheist.

    Minute 31:50 addresses the issue of suffering, in case you don’t want to sit through the first 30 minutes.

    • Hi Sebbie,

      There’s obviously a lot of material covered in these two videos, but I’ll address the problem of evil in how it relates to the suffering of children.

      Before I do, I should mention that when I first began having doubts about Christianity I read Lee Stroble’s The Case for Christ. At the time, I wasn’t looking for any serious objections to Christianity, I just wanted reassurance that what I believed was true (confirming my own bias). But even back then, it was pretty clear that Lee Stroble was pretty biased. In the book, his wife wants him to become a Christian, so this motivates him to go out and interview ONLY believers — not ONE atheist or former pastor who might contest these opinions. In the end, he makes a list of pros and cons, and decides it makes more sense to believe. Well, of course it does, you never gave the opposition a chance to speak! What kind of news reporter does that?

      In The Case for Faith, Lee makes up for this by consulting ONE athiest, Charles Templeton (whose commentaries touched me far more than anything else in the video) and then, again, Lee goes about interviewing ONLY Christians for the next hour in an attempt to explain away a couple of Templeton’s objections. Any good atheist could’ve quickly dismantled these explanations, but Lee never gives one a chance to speak.

      Anyway, in the video, Charles Templeton comes to the logical conclusion that there cannot be a loving God with all the suffering that exists, and Lee throws out almost every known Christian argument at this question in an attempt to nullify it. Many of these I’ve covered elsewhere, but let’s take a look:

      First, the video calls into question what it even means to be “good” or “all powerful.” Lee Stroble might think that raping and murdering a child is actually GOOD according to God’s definition, but I cannot accept this. And he might also believe that “all powerful” means that God can’t logically rescue a toddler from cancer, but Jesus told us to pray for the sick and they would recover, so there’s no logical reason why He shouldn’t or couldn’t do this. Bottom line: anyone using this argument is just trying to strip words of their meaning.

      Second, the video suggests that the very question itself may be somehow illogical or nonsensical to God, like asking “How many hours are there in a mile?” But this is just another attempt to dodge the question, there’s nothing wrong with asking why children need to suffer. And if Lee really thought the question was illogical and nonsensical, he wouldn’t spend the next hour trying to answer it.

      Third, Lee moves on to the popular free will argument, saying that we humans need free will so we can choose to be either good or evil. Fair enough. But the problem here is that the majority of children are NOT killed by men exercising their free will, but by the environment God has placed them in. Can we honestly say that we wouldn’t be able to exercise free will in the absence of disease?

      Fourth, Lee doesn’t blame God for creating a harmful nature, he blames mankind (though surely God played a role in designing harmful bacteria and viruses). In other words, because Adam exercised free will and chose evil, it is now somehow necessary for children to suffer from things like polio, TB, malaria, influenza, and cancer. 10 million children will die this year because Adam exercised his free will… even though these children had nothing to do with it, and are even being stripped of their own opportunity to exercise free will in the process (which seems to defeat the purpose of creating them in the first place). If millions of annual deaths are a requirement of this curse (our fall), then why are we humans having so much success in preventing these deaths? Childhood mortality rates are now half what they were even a couple decades ago. If millions of deaths are being prevented, then either no such curse exists, or these past deaths were unnecessary.

      Fifth, the video then claims that God is innocent in all this, because He created the world good, “just as it was supposed to be.” However, the obvious objection that is never raised is that God never had to create us in the first place. If God never created us, none of this suffering would’ve EVER existed. An ALL-GOOD God should’ve chosen NOT to create us in order to prevent any additional evil from existing. Lee really should’ve addressed this question, but he doesn’t, because he’s only interested in reassuring himself and other believers that they have the truth. So he pretends to ask hard questions, but then conveniently and completely avoids any and all atheist responses to these questions.

      Sixth, the video says free will is necessary because as soon as love is forced, it’s not love anymore. But if hell exists, then we are forced to love God or suffer the eternal consequences. The only way for love to not be forced is to remove the threat of hell and give us the free will to decide to love God on our own, without consequences. And again, an all-good God would not create a situation in which the majority of souls (which He supposedly loves) end up in eternal torment. In fact, even if only one soul ends up in hell, we could reason that the logical choice would’ve been to not create anything at all, so the total amount of suffering in the universe would remain at zero.

      Last but not least, the video suggests that suffering might make us stronger. Well… that’s true… unless it makes you dead. But most parents who lose children don’t become any stronger, only sadder. And again, are we HALF as strong as we were 20 years ago? The suffering we observe does not appear intentionally and purposefully directed, but random, gratuitous, unevenly distributed and often unnecessary. Even in the animal kingdom there is rampant pain and suffering where it provides no ultimate benefit to anyone or anything.

      In short, The Case for Faith is Christian propaganda, a tool designed to reassure doubting Christians and proselytize the uninitiated with one-sided arguments. It relies heavily on emotionally-charged images and music to provoke an emotional response; it fails to address obvious objections, and it fails to allow even ONE living atheist (even a heavily-edited one) to offer counter-arguments to all the explanations that these believers offer. It is 10 minutes of atheist objection, followed by 60 minutes of one-sided refutation. As a journalist, it’s a wonder that Lee can’t see that he’s only confirming his own bias.

      But the comments of Charles Templeton make this video worth watching, I see him as the sole voice of reason, the only one willing to risk everything for what he believes to be true — the lone voice crying out in the wilderness, saying: “Follow the evidence wherever it leads! And damn the consequences!” That guy’s the real hero in this story. :-)

      • rautakyy says:

        I bet Lee has made a fortune with his books and videos.

        The free will argument is totally moot, since, if there has to be evil and doubt about the existance of a particular god for free will to exist, then is there no free will in heaven? If evil is banned from heaven, and full knowledge of a god is obvious to all there, then the residents of heaven are simply worship robots?

        How does ignorance benefit free will? How does evil benefit free will? I am perfectly happy to exercise my freedom between choises of two different good things.

        The argument, that we can not fathom god and the purpose of the suffering (of children) from our limited perspective is also moot, because a god would know we have a limited perspective and therefore a benevolent god would not ask us to have faith in something we are unable to percieve.

        Atheists like Lee Strobel who find faith and openly admit it are often celebrated by religious folk. My favourite among those is C.S. Lewis who in his fairytale books made allegories refering to Christianity. What should we learn about those allegories? That the Jesus story is just about as believable and true as the Narnia stories? There are several times the child characters who in these books visit the magical land of Narnia are told, that they are too old to visit there any more, ie. they have grown almost adult and should not take fairytales for real. What is that an allegory of? Instead of becoming “re-born” should people rather grow up?

        • Former atheists like Lee Strobel are indeed celebrated by Christians, because they allow Christians to say, “He was an atheist and now admits he was wrong! So we MUST be right!” But Strobel never really struck me as the kind of person who took atheism very seriously, as he doesn’t seem very familiar with the arguments (or isn’t willing to talk about them).

          But atheists could make similar claims in the opposite direction. Just like Charles Templeton, many pastors, priests and apologists have abandoned their faith after coming to the realization that they were simply wrong: folks like John Loftus, Dan Barker, and Jerry DeWitt (you can find their testimonies on YouTube).

          While it’s always interesting to hear what they have to say, the conversion itself is still only anecdotal evidence; ultimately the debate must come back to the evidence and the quality of the argument on either side.

  88. Ginny says:

    I don’t know about all of you but I believe in God. He has showed Himself to me all kinds of different ways before I truly began following Him my life was full of misery, I wanted to die, Life was meaningless I had no real purpose. Than I discovered who God really was, He was Love, an unconditional love, He has given me purpose I now have something new and exciting to look forward to everyday I smile all the time though I still go through times of suffering He sees me through it where before trying to see myself through it got me no where but more angry and hateful continuously closing myself off from the world, spreading sickness. Now I spread light He has gave all the years back to me the enemy stole away and I couldn’t be more amazed at him I am so grateful for everything He has ever done for me and none of it would of been revealed without suffering Praise the Lord……Here is something else He lead me to that may help……

    The Weaving:
    My life is but a weaving, between my God and me; I do not choose the colors, He worketh Steadily. Oft times He weaveth sorrow, and I in foolish Pride forget He sees the upper, and I the under side. Not til the loom is silent, and shuttles cease to fly will God unroll the canvas and explain the reason why the dark threads are as needful in the skillful weaver’s hand as threads of gold and silver in the pattern He has planned.
    – Anonymous –

    • Hi Ginny,

      I wish God would show himself to me! Even after being a Christian for some 30 years, praying every night, asking for signs, listening for that still-small-voice, praising and worshiping him… I didn’t get diddly. Perhaps God just loves some more than others. :-(

      More to the point, you seem to be excusing God by saying “He sees the upper” and will explain it all when we’re dead. The Weaving puts it poetically, it just doesn’t really stand to reason (see #10 above). This just dodges the question, postponing the answer until after death, saying, “When we die, then God will make the illogical logical! He will show us how black was really white, how right was wrong, up was down, and circles were really squares! And He’ll even explain how all those evil things He appeared to allow were actually good things!”

      Unfortunately, I’m told I need to make up my mind about God BEFORE I’m dead, not after, and all the information I have to draw upon is the world God (reportedly) created. So my dilemma is this: even if I assume God is good, then He is STILL evil for allowing His creation to bare false witness against Himself, which led me and others to believe He was either evil, indifferent, or nonexistent.

      Perhaps, if I looked around and the ONLY evil I observed was what one man did to another, then I MIGHT be able to believe that God was still innocent in all this (though He still chose to create that world in the first place), but even that’s not the case.

  89. Anonymous says:

    Oh wow. You really are the voice of reason. I don’t understand how anyone with half a brain can read through everything that has been said here and still try and justify the suffering of young, innocent children. Thanks a bunch dude, keep up the good work.

  90. I do not have the perfect answer..or scientific proof of God, or why he let;s bad things happen…all I know is I try to have a faith….maybe blind faith..as I have a Mother, Father & dear sister who have passed on….and if there is no Go0d…then where would they be ? I want to see them again…and I want to believe in a heaven……If there is no life after death, then what is the point to life ? Accident ? wow ! all these people , millions of years….all the science & technology….such smart people…..and a lot of Good people….in this vast Universe, there has to be a reason…a reason we have made it this far…..and see so much more to learn…there has to be a reason, maybe a higher power..maybe another demention…and Im just supposing from my meek little brain, as I have read everything from Darwin to the Bible…and a lot in between…..what a waste if there is no reason….and even my little mind cant help but hope…..if there is nothing when I die…I wont know..will I ? but if by believing the best I can in a God who has a purpose for us..maybe…just maybe…I will awake on the other side…and this keeps me sane….I hope everyone, can find something that gives them comfort, and refuge in this life…and hope we will all be rogether in the next…..imagine..all the souls since time began…thats a lot of people….but then again, the Universe is a big place…and Quarum Psysics gives possibilities of many dementions…right in front of our eyes…..anything is possible….excuse my spelling errors….I am not perfect….peace & Love to all…

    • Anonymous says: