17. Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

While I’ve previously touched on the problem of evil, I wanted to focus a bit more on what is perhaps the most heinous evil one can possibly imagine: the suffering and death of innocent children.

Each year, approximately 10 million children will die from causes such as birth defects, malnutrition, accidents, disease, SIDS, cancer, starvation, homicide, war, etc. The literal torture that some children must endure is absolutely unconscionable.

When children suffer and die, it forces us to ask some difficult questions:

  1. If God creates life for a purpose, why end it before it can accomplish that purpose?
  2. Why should an innocent child suffer for crimes it didn’t commit?
  3. Why should children suffer pain that they cannot understand or comprehend?
  4. Why make a child suffer and die when they can’t possibly learn from the experience?

If there is no God, then the suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature. Our brains perceive these events as sad and unfortunate, but nature is unthinking and indifferent.

But, if a moral God exists, then why do these tragedies continue as if there were no God? Why do children continue to suffer and die as if God is indifferent to the situation?

There are numerous explanations attempting to maintain God’s innocence in this case, so let’s take a quick look at each of them.

1. “God allows evil, but does not cause it.”

God always had the opportunity to say, “I refuse to create mankind, because it will result in the creation of evil and suffering.” By choosing to create us, God chose to create suffering where none previously existed. An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser.

2. “The natural world is under the curse of sin.”

In order to excuse God from the suffering he created, we sometimes try to place all the blame on man or Satan, saying, “It’s not God’s fault man sinned and let evil into the world!” But who defines the limits of mankind’s punishment? God! So why didn’t God just design a punishment that didn’t involve punishing innocent children?

For example, why not just kick Adam and Eve out of Eden and allow their sinless children to remain? Or allow Adam and Eve to stay, but punish them in the afterlife (instead of punishing them in this life and the next)? Or why not give children a greater level of protection outside of Eden? Or not allow them to feel serious pain until they’re older, or after they’ve sinned?

“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
— Luke 11:13

Even we who are evil recognize that children should not be punished for sins they didn’t commit. And yet… they are.

3. “If God did not allow evil, then he would have to destroy everything that is evil.”

This all-or-nothing fallacy says that either all evil must exist, or it all must be destroyed — but surely there must be some middle ground.

For example, when Jonas Salk discovered a vaccine for polio, he lessened the number of suffering children in the world. He didn’t end all suffering, just some of it. Likewise, God could eliminate some kinds of suffering without eliminating all suffering, such as the suffering of children.

In fact, if God were truly benevolent, he would see to it that only the absolute minimum amount of suffering existed. Anything beyond that would be, by definition, unnecessary, and God would be malevolent for allowing it.

So was polio absolutely necessary? As believers, we have to say yes, or admit that it was totally unnecessary and that God is malevolent. But if polio was necessary, then why have we been allowed to eradicate a necessary evil? The fact that we can eliminate it suggests it was never necessary.

Similarly, thanks to improvements in science and education, the childhood mortality rate has been greatly reduced over the past 20 years. Was it really absolutely necessary for millions more children to die 20 years ago than today? If we can save them today, why didn’t God just spare them 20 years ago? These deaths appear unnecessary, because if we had these cures 20 years ago, they wouldn’t have all died.

4. “God rarely interferes with His creation.”

We Christians give thanks to God for every small thing. Why is it that God can help us with so many little things, but he can’t (or won’t) stop lunatics from raping and killing children?

If God and 99.99% of mankind are opposed to such behavior, why would God even allow it? If we’re all in agreement that we don’t need or want this much freedom, why does it exist?

Clearly, God offers us NO protection if he refuses to spare even the most innocent from the most evil. Does it stand to reason that God would want to save guilty sinners in the next life, when he won’t even save the most innocent in this one?

The Bible tells us we can identify a tree by its fruit (Luke 6:44). If God allows such atrocities against children, isn’t this evidence of bad fruit?

5. “If God stopped people from harming children, this would restrict our free will, and it might even prove the existence of a God.”

Most of the harm that befalls children comes from disease and environmental factors, not from malicious humans. Man did not design harmful viruses, bacteria, and natural disasters. Would it really destroy our faith or free will if we lived in a world without these things? Wouldn’t we still be free to lie, cheat, steal, assault, kill, destroy, and reject God without these things?

Consider the other natural limitations that God has placed on our free will. For example, we do not have the free will to live underwater. If we try, there are immediate and deadly natural consequences: we can’t breathe and we die! But there are no such natural restrictions on things like abusing children. Why not?

Why would an intelligent, loving God design a world that naturally prevents us from doing things that don’t matter, and then not protect the things that do? Is God more concerned about our going underwater than he is about protecting children?

6. “These children may have turned against God at a later date, so he took them early.”

If God put them here to make a choice, what good does it do to take them out before they make it? Why not take out every person before they turn against him?

7. “God is able to bring a greater good out of tragedy.”

No one ever says, “Boy, it sure is a good thing our son died!” or “It’s a good thing those 10 million babies died last year!” By all appearances, it’s a sad and unfortunate loss without recompense. While some good can come out of tragedy, it rarely seems enough to make up for the loss.

As a Christian, I may have been able to rationalize such loss if it always resulted in other people becoming saved; but it’s hard to imagine that such a scheme would work, or that God would kill children just to bolster salvation rates. (Why not just kill off vocal atheists?)

8. “The death of a child allows the parents to help others in a similar position.”

But if no children died, there wouldn’t be any parents in a similar position.

9. “God gives these children an eternity in heaven, which makes up for any and all suffering.”

In 1996, eight-year-old Michael Lyons was walking home from school when he was abducted by Robert Rhoades. Rhoades raped and tortured Michael for ten hours, stabbing him 70 times before slitting his throat and dumping him in a bush by a river. Now, I have to ask, what was God doing during those ten hours? Was he watching silently, more concerned about protecting his own identity and Robert’s free will than answering the terrified pleas of an eight-year-old? (Would anyone have noticed if Robert just died of a heart attack the day before? Or if he was never conceived?)

Maybe God did say to Michael later that same day, “Welcome to paradise! It’s all bliss from here on out!” And maybe Michael replied, “Yes Lord, but where were you just then? Why didn’t you stop him?” What could God possibly say? “Well… it won’t happen again, so that makes it okay.” How could someone who truly loves you allow for such a thing?

Saying that heavenly compensation magically turns a wrong into a right is like saying if Rhoades paid Michael’s parents one billion dollars, it would justify the crime. But it doesn’t. It still happened, Rhoades is still a child killer, and there will always be a time when God could’ve prevented it, but didn’t.

“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’ If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”
— Tracie Harris, The Atheist Experience

10. “The Bible tells us, ‘Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding.'”

When all the above rationalizations fail, the last resort is often to assume that God has a reason, we just don’t know what it is. I see a few problems with this answer.

Firstly, it’s not an answer, it just defers the question indefinitely and then assumes a reasonable explanation exists, despite all the evidence to the contrary. 

Secondly, this is like being told: “You should just accept that God allowed your child to be raped and murdered for a good reason! And when you get to heaven you’ll say, ‘Oh! There really was a good reason! Thank you Lord for allowing my child to be raped and murdered!'” I can’t imagine any scenario in which this could ever make sense.

Thirdly, this kind of argument can be used to defend any logical absurdity from any religion. “Stop doubting Zeus/Joseph Smith/Ahura Mazda/Muhammad/Jim Jones/Marshall Applewhite/Ra/L. Ron Hubbard/etc. and just accept that all these logical absurdities will be explained in the afterlife!” 

Finally, and perhaps most profoundly, the Bible tells us that God’s creation testifies to His nature (Romans 1:20). If God is benevolent and cares for children, yet His creation testifies to the contrary (by killing children through disasters and disease), then God has borne false witness against himself. How can we choose to love God when His creation testifies that he allows for unnecessary and extraneous evil? If only men did evil deeds, then we might be able to make a case for God’s innocence, but this creation as it stands speaks to either a god of malevolence, or a natural indifference.

Conclusion

Again, if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds of damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.

However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?

Would you stand idly by as someone molested, mutilated, and killed your child? If you then, though you are evil, would rescue your child, how much more should your Father in heaven if you ask him? But he doesn’t. He creates a world where it can happen, and then stands idly by as it does. 

“Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own?”
— Robert Ingersoll

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1,053 Responses to 17. Why does God allow children to suffer and die?

  1. Dino says:

    I don’t know what books your reading, but you seem to be taking bits and pieces to conform to your lifestyle. (the 10 commandments, see if it’s in any of the books you’re reading)

    Listen, believe me or not I tend to ask for forgiveness before engaging anyone that does not believe in the God I worship in The Bible (NLT, NIV, KJV, ESV). You’ve obviously created your own version of a god and I say again; one that best suits your lifestyle, which from the sense I’m getting let’s you do anything you want! Well, that there sir is in fact a form of ideology. Now if this upsets you which I’m sure it does, I suggest you try the power of prayer. You appear to have a totally different view of religion which is way off the chart and I believe personally that all the so called ” good people” have a warped definition of “good people”. There is nothing I can say and nothing you can say that will pull us closer to one another’s beliefs. All we can do is choose to disagree and live in this world peacefully.

    Also, ironically thank you for having this discussion with me, I do not go looking for these types of debates, but when they present themselves to me I believe it has a purpose. It pushes me to seek answers and my God seems to always pull through as I’m sure yours does; (hey you get to do whatever you want!)and hey maybe they are the same God and when we sit before him one of us might just get a real good butt chewing. Which one of us might that be? God bless you and I pray that you figure out how to live in peace with people who don’t agree with your beliefs.

    See Wikipedia’s definition of ideology: ideology in the Althusserian sense, is “the imaginary relation to the real conditions of existence.” It can be described as a set of conscious and unconscious ideas which make up one’s goals, expectations, andmotivations. An ideology is a comprehensive normative vision, meaning that it is a set of standards that are followed by people, government, and/or other groups that is considered the “norm”.[1][further explanation needed], a way of looking at things, as argued in several philosophical tendencies (see political ideologies). It can also be a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of society to all members of society (a “received consciousness” or product ofsocialization[further explanation needed]), as suggested in some Marxist
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

    • Lena says:

      But you didn’t answer the above questions. You’re just bashing the author, claiming ideology, but you have no answers for the above questions.

      • Anonymous says:

        Yup, and goes on to justify belief by saying “read the bible” makes assumptions about “living however you want” (none of is living in a civil society does everything we want) i think we’re all familiar with the ten commandments. How many of the ten has “God” broken?

    • Nancy says:

      Never doubt God , try and pray more God tests us all a true believer never doubts God

      • Anonymous says:

        A true believer may doubt. Consider Thomas…

      • Paul says:

        Nonsense. It is in our nature to test and question things or God would not have given us a brain. God has designed a very clever game. Perhaps He designed it too well. He over-engineered it. That’s why people struggle to understand it.

    • dinoconstant says:

      Thank you for your contribution Dino. It may help if you stated your opinions in a more gentle way, like Jesus did. This is only a suggestion from a humble human being who dedicates about 140 hours a week to taking care of his 93 year old ailing mother, by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

    • Pan says:

      It seems that you forgot that God gave all human beings choice, God cannot take away one human beings choice to protect another for then he would be an unrighteous God. If He removes the rapist choice to save innocents then He would have to remove the whole of humanities choice in everything and anything. We bought this evil world and suffering of children upon ourselves. God gave us a choice between trusting and choosing Him or being misled. God never gave Adam or Eve a reason not to trust in Him but they did not listen to Him – “but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” – The warning we where given. Yet we chose to listen to evil instead.”For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” – said the serpent. As humans it is our choice to choose good or evil. Humans will always find excuses to blame God for their own idiocy. The reality of the matter is that it is because of our choices that the children in the world suffer. “Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”- We blame everything and anything else instead of excepting that it is our choices that have put us here.”God punished Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, by making their lives hard. No longer could they live in the perfect world of the Garden of Eden. Men would have to struggle and sweat for their existence. Women would have to bear children in pain and be ruled over by their husbands. Adam and Eve were thrown out of the beautiful Garden of Eden forever”

      “There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgements, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.” [WCF 2.1]

      “The end of God’s appointing this day [wherein he will judge the world, in righteousness] is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord: but the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” [WCF 33.2, insertion 33.1]

      Your biggest mistake is that you think you can try and understand God and you forget that God is God and we are only human. God cannot be judged by humanity if your truly believe in God, you would open your eyes to the fact that the devil lives amongst us and that we are here as a punishment because we could not trust that God had our best interests at heart when he warned us not to eat the forbidden fruit. We turned our backs on God and followed the serpent, yet you expect God to give us mercy?

      • “God cannot take away one human beings choice to protect another for then he would be an unrighteous God. If He removes the rapist choice to save innocents then He would have to remove the whole of humanities choice in everything and anything.”

        Did you not read #3? It is not an all-or-nothing situation.

        If God can create a world where a man can die from putting a peanut in his mouth, God most certainly can create a world where a priest dies from putting a young boy’s penis in his mouth.

        Just because God takes away the freedom to do some things, it does not follow that mankind has been stripped of all freedom. Consider all the ways our freedom has been limited: we don’t have the freedom to fly, or breathe underwater, or survive in outer-space, or live forever, or heal our own bodies, or dig through the ground like a gopher, or run like a cheetah — hell, the list of things we CAN’T do far outstrips the things we CAN do.

        We don’t NEED to be able to rape and kill children in order to reject God. Satan rejected God, and he hadn’t harmed anyone. And I have never harmed an innocent child, and I never would… but I’m still going to hell for not believing in God, right? If I can still go to hell without harming an innocent child, than this freedom is NOT a requirement. (And not only is it not a requirement, but it interferes with God’s greater plan of allowing for these children to grow up to accept or reject God.)

        If your God REALLY can’t think of ways to create a world where the innocent are protected, then your God is NOT very creative. As mentioned, God could’ve allowed the innocent back into Eden, or made them more durable until they were older, or made it so they didn’t grow sex organs until a certain age.

        With love and respect,
        500Q

        • marcia says:

          all are born in sin. everyone and the wages of sin are death. so you are assuming that we are born innocent we are not. we are born under sin through Adam who willingly chose to sin. and people who hurt children are making a choice to be as God said evil. our hearts are wicked. the only thing that saves us as humans is the blood of Jesus who died to take away the sins we are under. so unfortunately kids are in that too you can Thank adam and eve.

          • There you have it then, babies are filthy sinners that deserve to be punished. Should you be thrown in jail for sins of your father? You can insist that we are guilty just for being born human, but that doesn’t mean it’s fair, or even reasonable. Animals too are punished, and did nothing wrong. What was their sin?

            500Q

            • K says:

              None of us deserve life, we are only here because of Gods grace. Children go to Heaven where as if that child grew up he may not of chosen God and may of gone to hell so although the death of that child is devastating for the family left behind, the child goes straight to heaven, and all it missed out on is a life on earth for 80 years or so which most of us don’t seem to enjoy anyway. Lol everything is in Gods plan and sometimes we may not understand it, he does and we have to trust in him. You don’t sound like you believe in God anyway so I don’t know why you care lol

              • sklyjd says:

                “None of us deserve life” Speak for yourself.

                “the child goes straight to heaven, and all it missed out on is a life on earth for 80 years or so which most of us don’t seem to enjoy anyway. Lol”

                This appears to be a bit of a joke for you but it is an extremely delusional view of the world because you have basically said that every child that is murdered or killed in a car accident for example or the 20,000 disadvantaged children that are born into various religions who die of starvation and disease every day have only missed out on living a life.

                From your view, obviously they did not deserve to have a life anyway and as God had decided they were to die, so be it. I might also add he had plenty of practice killing children in the Old Testament through dishing out punishments, so I guess what’s the difference if kids die today and don’t have a life.

                Everything is OK anyway, right? Because they have the advantage of a passage straight to another life with the Christian God in heaven and these deaths are planned by God because it is “God’s plan” and that is something we do not need to understand but accept gracefully.

                These dead children and their devastated parents just need to trust God has done what’s best for the child and it is probably the best result because you believe most people do not enjoy this life anyway.

                Have you expressed these views to anyone who is not indoctrinated in your ideology who has lost a child?

                Your unbelievable assumptions and claims are only supported only by what you read in an ancient scripture and what your church ministers and possibly your parents have brain washed you about a god. This repetitive preaching has warped your emotions and manifested a false reality within your brain. I sincerely hope you do not preach your doctrine to children.

              • dinoconstant says:

                Hello ‘K’!

                Your thinking appears to be quite muddled.To say that none of us deserves life suggests that God made a mistake. We are here, we are reproducing, children are being born without choosing to be born. If they die early, do they really go to heaven straightaway? Who told you that? What about Christ’s second coming when He is supposed to judge us all?

                You appear to be an apologetic with a need to defend God as though you are defending yourself and He doesn’t need your help since He is omnipotent and can reach into people’s hearts and minds easily, if He wants to.

                Peace and love to all,

                Dinos

          • vivakats says:

            None of this adds up.
            There was no Adam and Eve.
            Even if there had been, the story makes no sense. An omniscient God creates two people, rigs the game, knows what they’re going to do, lets them do it, then blames them for it and everyone who comes after them. Really?
            Why not just create a paradise for everyone to live in for all time?
            Why create the possibility of evil in the first place?
            Why create Lucifer, knowing ahead of time that he would rebel and take a bunch of angels with him? Why not obliterate him if he’s such a problem?
            Why bother to create hell except to be sadistic?

            • Stella says:

              Vivakats, I agree with you 100%. There has never been an Adam or Eve, and Nor talking snakes. This story was just “cooked” to brain wash people’s mind. In fact this is a man made story most especially by the rich who wanted to rule over the poor and to their property. We the present humans now, Can someone tell me where he/she has heard a snake talking?.
              If god was loving and almighty, why did he not forgive adam and eve for the sin they committed since this was just their first sin. More so if he could not forgive those people then how you expect him to forgive us now.
              That is why the bible is total lies because it states that god is a forgive god yet he did not forgive adam and eve.
              Tell me how about animals, are they also forgiven since we do not have any difference with them?. Do animals have souls? When they die where do their souls go to? Do they also go to the purported heaven?
              I believe we humans and animals have no difference. When we die, we die and that is the end period. Let’s not be decieved.

              • consultgtf says:

                Stella, Our parents or Grand parents may have sinned, but CAN we the techno-savy generation stop sinning at least for the sake of our Children?

                We are NOT judges here but we are parents with human feelings, When we know that “Our God is punishing God, then why SATISFY our senses with illusions?

              • Rob says:

                It seems making your chose to not believe in God doesn’t satisfyyour appetite if you truly believe in your disbelief then why look for someone to answer you out of your questions

                • Anonymous says:

                  I think those of us who don’t believe only appear unsatisfied because we’re always in a constant state of tease by believers. Since god can’t be proven either way, when believers act as though they’re so sure he exists, we can’t help but wonder what is it that they know that we don’t? And so we question them. But rarely do believers give truly satisfying, verifiable answers and so we keep questioning, eventually wondering if in reality the only difference between them & us is that they WANT to believe in god, even though they have no more knowledge or proof that god exists than we do. Believers just don’t want to admit that they really don’t know for sure and go on pretending as though they somehow DO know god exists, even though they’re only believing because that’s what they want to believe–it makes them feel better about life, about death, gives them purpose, etc. But I have more respect for believers who are honest, who admit that their belief is only a belief and feel justified in believing simply because there is no proof that they’re wrong. But they ALSO have the humility to accept that they COULD be wrong, yet they’re satisfied in just believing as long as it hasn’t been proven wrong yet. But when a believer insists that there’s no possibility that their belief is wrong, that’s when I can’t help but question: what makes them so sure? What do they know that I don’t? And I’m always left hanging with inadequate, incomplete, & inconsistent answers, frustrated by their denial to admit that they’re just deluding themselves.

          • Holly Kennedy says:

            You, Marcia, are missing out if you cannot perceive the innocence of a child. A child’s innocence is surely the most beautiful thing in the universe. What a shame you are choosing to miss this. Doesn’t it say in the bible to see through the innocent eyes of a child to comprehend love? They are god’s greatest gifts and remind us all of what true love is. See the truth with your very eyes and see what’s right in front of you instead of believing literally in (1) book written by men so long ago.

            It’s easy to research the origins of the bible and catholic priests on google. Any caring person would be horrified at the depravity of the catholic priests throughout all of history, even now with the pedophile priests in huge numbers. If there were satans on earth, they would be priests. And priests are the ones who decided what went in the bible and changed the stories or made them up to fit into their plans to hold unbelievable power over the people. Please google ‘Council of Nicaea’ held in AD 325 for origins of the bible. A really great and scholarly book by William Manchester entitled “A World Lit Only by Fire” for the history of Christianity in the aftermath of that Council and through the Renaissance. Because…..do you really want to know the truth?

          • Rob says:

            My question is what about the four scripture that says things like ask anything in My name and you will have it ask and you shall receive …doesn’t that mean if a child being raped is praying for God to stop what’s going on, by definition of those scripture He will grant theme what they desperately beg for? Or is his or her free will being ignored because the rapists free will is in jeopardy? .

          • Jay says:

            If humans are wicked and we are created in God’s image then God is wicked.

        • Pan says:

          Let me ask a question then, is it not a miracle in itself that we created a higher power, a being that created us? Who, one day decided to call this being God or whatever higher power they believe in? How did we come up with that concept that there is something bigger than us out there?

          And then if you do not believe in God, how can you blame something that does not exists? If you then take God out of the equation, why do people do the evil things they do? If there is no hell to fear what keeps us from becoming evil ourselves. Who thought you your morals and where did those people learn wrong from right?

          The Bible again and again asks us to make the right decision and we choose to disobey.
          Colossians 3:5
          Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

          We choose not do this. We give in to temptation everyday.

          We turned our backs on God and followed the serpent, we where denied the tree of eternal live because we did this. If we where obedient we would still be in the garden of Eden and none of this would affect us.

          Who knows we might have even been able to do all the the things below and more.

          “Consider all the ways our freedom has been limited: we don’t have the freedom to fly, or breathe underwater, or survive in outer-space, or live forever, or heal our own bodies, or dig through the ground like a gopher, or run like a cheetah — hell, the list of things we CAN’T do far outstrips the things we CAN do”

          The devil is the one who convinces people to do evil and people choose to follow him.Or more accurately to follow temptation. Why does God have to make it impossible for a human to want to harm a child? Is it not our mission to protect our children and create harsh punishment for people who do this sort of thing? These people get of lightly and have no fear of committing these crimes.

          We stand idly by and do nothing. The blame lies with us not God. This is our freedom of choice, we get to choose to live a life of good or evil, God does not hinder our choice in this.

          And why are their al sorts of ways for us to die? Well once again we choose that.
          “but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

          lest you die – we choose mortality.

          Cancer is a man made decease, rape is a humans choice.

          Humans are the evil of the world. We choose to disobey God everyday and now we have to live with the consequences of those choices.

          The bible is a moral guideline, it is our choice to live respectable moral lives or to live as despicable scum of the earth. God will not intervene in this choice because our first choice was to betray God instead of trusting Him. “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever ” We could not ask for Gods permission or wait until he granted us the knowledge, we disobeyed him and therefore we suffer the consequences of our and other human beings choices.

          We fail to punish the people who do these things, God has given us the power to be good we chose to be evil and then we blame everyone but ourselves.

          Most people think that God is only a loving, forgiving and mercifully God, what they forget is that God is also a just, jealous, wrathful God.
          Exodus 20:5
          “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS ON THE CHILDREN, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.

          We make our children pay for our sin.

          Deuteronomy 4:23-24
          “So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you. “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

          You might morn what a child has gone through but know one thing, if we fail to punish evil doers, God will not. It might seem like a fairytale to you but I know that it is not and I would not wish internal damnation on anyone. We cannot even begin to comprehend what kind of suffering such a person will have to endure. So God sends, people like me to knock on your door so that you can let him in. He keeps asking but you keep turning your back on Him. It is up to you if you want eternal life or not. No one will force you to believe, once again it is your choice. You know the consequences of your choices so you cannot even say that you did not know.

          You want children to live long happy lives, stop being okay with sex being promoted, “American children and teenagers spend more than 7 hours/day with a variety of different media.7 Those media are filled with sexual messages and images, many of which are unrealistic.2 On television (TV), which remains the predominant medium in terms of time spent for all young people, more than 75% of prime-time programs contain sexual content, yet only 14% of sexual incidents mention any risks or responsibilities of sexual activity.8,9 Talk about sex on TV can occur as often as 8 to 10 times per hour.10 Between 1997 and 2001 alone, the amount of sexual content on TV nearly doubled.”

          Stop promoting violence. We teach our children all these things and we created a world where this is the norm. If we truly wanted change we would put a stop to it and we would stop blaming God for our inadequacy to do so.

          • Stella says:

            You said cancer is a man made disease, can you also get us the cure to it since it is man made?

            • Pan says:

              Please read the below articale
              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1320507/Cancer-purely-man-say-scientists-finding-trace-disease-Egyptian-mummies.html

              Sorry Stella, that’s not how it works, we have polluted this planet with all sorts of horrible and poisoning things, we even get cancer from food these day because we want to genetically enhance our food to last longer, without considering the consequences of the effect of that on our bodies.
              Cancer is caused by Gene mutations that occur after birth. Most gene mutations occur after you’re born and aren’t inherited. A number of forces can cause gene mutations, such as smoking, radiation, viruses, cancer-causing chemicals (carcinogens), obesity, hormones, chronic inflammation and a lack of exercise.

              Our air is polluted, our ground is polluted, we pump radio active and piousness chemicals into the sea and our drinking water. There is more plastic in the ocean than there are fish! We create means of warfare that is unnecessary in this day and age to steel from neighbouring countries. Countries send their children to fight wars that are all about greed and consumption.

              We have only ourselves to blame, as we only chase money – the root of all evil. You want a cure? Well, ask all those smart people who make money of chemotherapy. If a cure to cancer was discovered, do you really think that they would make it public? No they would not – How much money do you think the medical industry makes of cancer patients?

              Read the below article
              http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/the-cancer-industry-is-too-prosperous-to-allow-a-cure/

              Open your eyes to the truth. Human beings, money and greed are what run the world. God tries to guide us but we choose to ignore Him. We have bought this on ourselves, humanity has turned it’s back on God once again and ignored His warnings. Why must God listen to our plea if we refuse to listen to Him.

              • sklyjd says:

                Pan it is clear you have no faith in humans at all, only in your Christian God. You are actually using human rejection of your Christian God as an excuse to show your disgust at the progress of the world even though some of it may be misguided.

                “A number of forces can cause gene mutations,” Agree, however they are not passed on to the next generation. If someone wants to live an unhealthy life style don’t they have that right? Technology and medicine often have effects that are negative as much as they are positive and we simply just have to look after ourselves better. Smoking used to be the cool thing to do before we knew the consequences and he current research on the health risks of GMOs is inconclusive.

                “Our air is polluted, our ground is polluted” Populations have increased rapidly, millions of cars etc. Stupid politicians, Oil is the black gold, Understandable.

                “we only chase money – the root of all evil,” always has been the way from the day the first caveman bartered with another caveman. All religions do exactly this, watch them on American TV.

                “ask all those smart people who make money of chemotherapy. If a cure to cancer was discovered, do you really think that they would make it public?”
                As with many religious people you appear to decide that everybody who is scientifically employed must be lying or corrupt. Are you one of those Christians that believe they lie about evolution as well just to destroy Christianity?

                “Open your eyes to the truth. Human beings, money and greed are what run the world.” I agree this is what keeps the world economies going, and many of these types of people are Christians or religious types, so what’s your problem?

                “God tries to guide us but we choose to ignore Him.” If God does absolutely nothing there is a good reason for this…… he only exists within your mind, and progress has far surpassed superstitious beliefs.

                • dinoconstant says:

                  Hi sklyjd!

                  I’ve just read your response to Pan’s thoughts. I always appreciate your comments and the logical way you present them.

                  There are some people who like to use forums such as this one to bash us, and humanity as a whole, with their doctrines. They defend their God as though they are defending themselves. Such people attribute God with omnipotence, so He is well able to defend Himself, even to cause non-believers to die and go to hell where they cannot spread their evil atheism to others! Alternatively, He could cause them to experience something so unique and wonderful, they think it must be from God and are converted! A good God should be willing and able to do this, shouldn’t He?

                  Anyway, I’m a disbeliever in the God as described and worshipped by many on this forum. I believe that if He does exist, then any of the following could explain the conundrums apparent to all thinking humans:

                  1) He maybe powerful but not omnipotent;

                  2) He may be omnipotent but not entirely good;

                  https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-45-7/

                  3) He may be a creative force, one that causes life to come into existence, incorrigibly on this planet, if true, and indifferent to the problems caused by the struggle to live and to thrive;

                  4) He may lack omniscience – unaware of the havoc He’s caused us.

                  5) He may not exist or be worthy of the title, “God”; it depends on how we define God;

                  6) whatever His nature, who are we to know or indeed how are we to know, with real evidence, and not from the Bible, which promotes itself like an idol to be worshipped and paraded in churches;

                  7) if He exists and is worthy to be called “God”, how likely is it that He should require worship and isn’t this activity for the benefit of self-indulgent worshippers;

                  8) if He is worthy to be called God, why do we anthropomorphise Him and give Him human traits, like jealousy (I am a jealous God…), Lover of those who believe in Him and obey His commands, Hater of the non-believers who do not, angry about our repeated misdeeds, joyful to those who are self-sacrificial, doing His “good works”, in synergy with the Holy Spirit, etc?

                  This is not a comprehensive list and I leave readers to imagine other possibilities. Please be aware that I consider myself unclassified, whatever readers may think, because of the way different religions assign different attributes to God, and because, within Christianity, there are more sects than can be imagined by those who are content within their own, and have not explored other Christian denominations. Below are a couple of links that list the denominations and estimate their number:

                  http://www.seiyaku.com/reference/denominations-list.html

                  http://www.seiyaku.com/reference/denominations-alpha.html

                  If you feel the need to be a Christian in order to be good, one of the best websites I’ve explored is shown below:

                  http://www.frimmin.com/faith/index.php

                  Peace and love to all,

                  Dinos

          • miguel ortiz says:

            Wow, you have it wrong. When somebody who is completely neutral looks at your comment they will go something like WOW, or actually Double WOW.
            And maybe it has to do with the fact that it is unfair, and actually an entity that behaves like that, meaning standing by while harm to childres is going on, well, Triple WOW.

        • Holly Kennedy says:

          500Q: “If God can create a world where a man can die from putting a peanut in his mouth, God most certainly can create a world where a priest dies from putting a young boy’s penis in his mouth.”

          RIGHT ON! RIGHT ON! THANK YOU!!! If God can create a world, he can make it as he wishes it. Pretty logical, I’d say. Great words here.

          And……as for the matter of the pedophile priests, “ye shall know them by their fruits”. Ye shall know false religion by it’s many, many pedophiles.

        • The truth hurts says:

          Dear author, I appreciate your very solid logic throughout the piece.

          Like many people, my belief in God is based more on tradition then it is on trying to make perfect sense of a spiritual existence in a physical world. That along with the extremely weak alternative ideas as to how everything that is in front of us came into being.

          I did want to refute your logic as it relates to the priest dying with the penis in his mouth.

          The person who you reply to it has a very strong point here. If the challenges of life is to find a pattern that can be hidden most of the time, then it would be a self-defeating purpose to practice religio The person who you reply to it has a very strong point here. If the challenge and purpose of life is to choose good over evil, then it would be pointless to create humanity in a world in which making those bad decisions caused immediate physical retribution to the sinner. Do you really believe that if any time someone commited an act which was defined as evil by God he was immediately struck by a bolt of lightning that there would be any doubt of a higher power?Therefore, the fact that someone can choke on a peanut does not make it any more reasonable that one should be able to die by choking on a penis, because by definition the former would not defeat the purpose of creation and the latter would.

          Secondly, your entire discussion is based on the premise that a two-year-old has a high level of innocence and cannot learn from these events. I challenge you to draw the line regarding at which age or point in a persons life pain and suffering becomes understandable. Is it three, five, nine, 11, 13 ? I would argue that there are people that are in their 20s and 30s for who were incredible people and certainly did not “deserve” their fate. Why is their suffering any more understandable? The answer is that it is not. You can decide to be a nonbeliever because of carbon dating and suffering, or you can look for the truth without an agenda.

        • Anonymous says:

          Why do Christians want to be the one God should hold responsible for having prevented Him from sending them a child? A child, something so precious to God that he would literally lay down His life for. Why would Christians who say they trust in God, they believe in God want to be the one resposible for preventing that child? God says ” I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you. Do Family Planning Christians think that God is some aging person who is losing his strength, who can no longer think straight so they must correct His thingking? Seriously what are Professing Family Practicing Christians Thinging?

        • Anonymous says:

          Your argument that God owes us certain natural laws to prevent evil is based on the premise that God has an obligation to lessen our suffering. God doesn’t owe us that obligation. Despite our fallen state, he still loves us! Because of his kindness and compassion, he lived a life of suffering, tortured and killed by his creation, so that we have a path to rejoin Him. What more can you ask for?

          One of the comments below asked why did God create us and rig the system to see us fail. I believe God created us so that we can know and love him. God gave humans free will in order that they might be capable of genuinely loving him. True love is voluntary, so in order for us to be capable of loving God, we also had to be capable of something else, including rebellion/sin. You may question whether that is really freewill — when one of the choices is eternal damnation? Yes, that is freewill because we have the ability to choose. Freewill doesn’t guarantee that both choices have to be good. Free will just means you get to decide.

          • sklyjd says:

            Yes, we may have been granted free will and obviously your God must have realised with this gift we also have the ability to question what we are told and look for evidence to support what we are told.

            Surely any god worth loving would have realised that the criminals were going to cause brutality and pain for their victims, that human decisions will cause thousands of children to die in agony every day from starvation and understand wars started by leaders including Christian leaders would kill millions of people, but also in the knowledge that most would not have been aware of the Christian God.

            And surely he would have known many thinkers and scientists within his human creation were going to be questioning, investigating and uncovering mysteries of our universe and the credibility of human creation and the stories as recorded in all religious scriptures.

            Since you claim this particular God gave us free our will for the simple reason “so we know and love him” I find that a lot more ridiculous than I can explain because even if it had any chance of having any slight truth at all this Christian God of yours was obviously having a huge joke and a laugh at our expense.

        • Cat says:

          We inherited the sin of Adam and Eve. It is not God’s lack of creativity that caused this… it is man’s sinful nature that is the root of all suffering. We are the creation given free will by our Creator, thus, we are to blame for the sin we commit. It is only by God’s grace, love, and mercy through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice at the cross, that we can be saved from ourselves, be forgiven and have eternal life. We all have the potential to receive this free gift. It is an eternal reward that we don’t have to work for, and we certainly don’t deserve. Our choice is to accept it or not. God is good and righteous and created us in His image. Count your blessings. 🕆

          • dinoconstant says:

            Hi Cat!

            You wrote, “We inherited the sin of Adam and Eve. It is not God’s lack of creativity that caused this… it is man’s sinful nature that is the root of all suffering. ”

            You should know that many Christians do not believe in the Adam and Eve story, so it does not explain to them why God allows evil.

            It’s worth considering how eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, said to give Adam and Eve the ability to know what is good and what is evil, could make them “as gods”. Most human beings would say that you need to have supernatural powers to be “as gods”, not the knowledge of good and evil.

            Also, if God is good and has foreknowledge, why did He put that tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden, knowing that Satan would tempt Eve, and that she would succumb, according to the biblical account?

            Another Christian explanation of why we do misdeeds, not based on the concept of Original Sin, is that we somehow doubt that our efforts to be good will be enough to guarantee a place in heaven, so we are tempted to indulge in earthly pleasures while we have an earthly existence. This has much more merit and credibility than the Original Sin idea, since it challenges us to be good out of love for God, and not so that we can buy a ticket to heaven by following commandments from the Bible. Also, it leaves the integrity of human nature, as God created us, good and intact! We are innately good but surrounded by temptations for pleasure.

            Peace and love to all,

            Dinos

          • sklyjd says:

            Supposing your Christian God exists. This eternal life is not a free gift. God is supposed to know everything, he knows it before it happens, he knows what we want to do, he knows what we think, he knows completely and absolutely everything, he watches each one of us and he makes it happen, right? So what happens to us is already decided, we cannot change it, we have no choice it is an illusion.

      • Man of God says:

        Truthful

      • Wayne says:

        Does disease have a choice? Does a tornado? These natural things are by definition made by god and have nothing to do with free choice. Yet they have devastating effects on all of humanity. Lets face it. God allows horrible things to happen to innocent people. If you believe in god than you have to agree that he is all knowing and all powerfull. Therefore he allows horrific things to happen and it has nothing to do with free choice. Those horrible costly events were gods choice.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hi Wayne!

          Does disease have a choice? Does a tornado? These natural things are by definition made by god and have nothing to do with free choice. Yet they have devastating effects on all of humanity.

          You make some good points.

          Here is some food for thought:

          Who has decided the nature of God, a Being said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (or panentheistic – everything within God), and wholly good? What if God has some, but not all of these attributes? This is what Epicurus (341 – 270 BC) had to say about God:

          Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

          And this is what the original KJV of the Bible says about the origin of evil:

          Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

          7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

          My feeling is that there’s not much point in criticizing God and those who believe in God, or defending God and criticizing unbelievers, without first agreeing on God’s attributes. We may then have an honest and meaningful discussion.

          Peace and consideration to all readers,

          Dinos

          • Steven Boyd says:

            I’m no expert in apologetics nor a scholared theologian, but based on my having read the bible thoroughly, many of its parts repeatedly throughout my christian upbringing and once straight through from cover to cover, as well as many other articles and books on the subject of god/christianity, the overall theology to me is pretty sound–except one contradiction that I have just recently come to realize. I’ve always accepted that if god is true, he is, whether directly or indirectly, responsible for pretty much all the evil in the world, but as part of his ultimately good plan. The plan being that all the evil in the world whether natural or man-made exists for the sole purpose of soul-making. We are made inherently with free will so that we may grow in adversity from darkness to light. Only then may we become beings truly worthy of his presence and fellowship and share in his abundance by our own free choice. The fall of satan, hell & eternal damnation, the original sin of adam & eve, all the way up to the antichrist & armageddon can all be rationally understood (with some slightly more liberal interpretations of scripture) as part of this plan. But for whatever reason, I’m only now realizing that this can in no way apply to the millions of children and infants who die every day from disease, poverty, natural disasters as well as the atrocities of men. There is no way I can reconcile this, not even with liberal interpretation of scripture. When thought through thoroughly, it simply does not make sense. In order for god to truly be god, he must be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and the bible gives enough evidence for this. Just as well, the plan I described above should more or less be his actual plan in order to rationally reconcile the reality of the state of man with god as depicted in the bible. But if all this is so, then the souls of millions of children are slipping through the cracks! It would be absolutely unjust of god to automatically have all those souls sent straight to hell. Yet if we just accept that they will automatically be in heaven with god, then what actual importance or necessity is this test on earth that the rest of us must still going through?? If the sin of adam applies by default to all those born after him, then all those children got a free pass without having to take the test! It would then be BETTER that all children born be immediately killed so that they may be guaranteed heaven and suffer no risk of temptation & damnation! Of course, this can’t be true. So how else can we explain it? Are we to assume that maybe infants and young children simply have no souls and that if they die, they simply cease to exist? That can’t be true as well, otherwise pro-lifers might as well throw down their signs and just go home ‘cuz even god might say they’re wasting their time. As far as I can see it, we only have two other alternatives we can accept: either god does indeed have a reason for allowing the deaths of countless children that fits accordingly with his overall plan and we with our meager minds simply cannot fathom it, or a much simpler, more likely reason–he doesn’t exist. This is a conclusion I’ve been leaning toward for quite some time for quite a few other very heavy and overwhelming reasons, but I think this realization just might be the final nail in the coffin. At least for now. I will always humbly maintain that I could still be wrong as there will probably never be a way to truly DISprove god, but I can’t help but buckle at the weight of rationality against his existence. And believe me, in many ways, life is actually much more peaceful, more hopeful, more infinitely astounding and beautiful, despite all its horrors, without the existence of an all powerful man in the sky.

            • dinoconstant says:

              Hi Steven Boyd!

              You wrote an interesting post and I thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

              There are always other explanations for the contradictions between doctrine and the empirical evidence available to us. God is defined as that Being which created the universe and everything within it, and has the attributes: omnipotence; omniscience; omnipresence; goodness; and love.

              There is no empirical evidence that a creative Being, said to have brought us to existence, has all these limitless attributes – the Holy Bible only serves to confuse us with accounts that compromise them. There may be a creative force, a genesis factor, that generates life in the right circumstances, but it should be inappropriate to call this force God.

              If earth is the only planet that has life, and God was the motive force that brought it into being, what is the purpose of the rest of the universe? An omnipotent Being could have constructed just our Solar System, for instance.

              This is what Epicurus had to say about God:

              Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

              To conclude, there are other possibilities when considering how we came to be. If we want to believe in a Creator, we, as limited human beings may benefit from re-defining such a Being so that it is at least consistent with the empirical evidence. If we did that, it would enable our young to think about it more logically, unencumbered by a book that causes its believers to become apologists of God.

              Peace to all,

              Dinos

              • Steven Boyd says:

                Hello dinoconstant, thanks for your reply.

                Yes, a definition of god I’m more willing to go with is that he is both willing and able to prevent evil, but he *won’t* because of our free will and his ultimately designed plan of perfecting our souls by allowing us to suffer adversity. But as I explained, this can’t apply to the millions of infants & children who die of both man-made and natural causes. However, I have been thinking it through some more, and I have just been able to speculate on how this might be allowed while still holding true to the definitions above. Again, this is all with a more liberal view on scripture: It must be that hell & damnation are not a place of punishment and judgment, but rather a state of consciousness that is lost from the light of god. The suffering souls endure in this state must be due to their vain clinging to material life, their ignorance or denial that they need god or are otherwise incomplete without him, and due to any fears in life they have left unresolved because of their lack of faith. God can rescue souls from this state, but not without violating their free will, which he will not do as their souls will not be properly perfected. He could also guide them back to his light as he does with us in this world, but again, not without violating their free will as it would seem necessary that our souls would have more power to reject or be lost from god in the afterworld (by having more free will as a result of our consciousness unrestrained from physical laws) than it does in this world. It must be assumed, though, that it is possible to escape from “hell”, but not without more extreme difficulty as god cannot help in any way without violating free will. Souls in this state are COMPLETELY on their own. Thus, in regards to the souls of young children & infants, they too would be lost to this state. But I posit that there would be some hope for them, more so than adults lost in this state, as their innocence would incline them more to seeking the light, despite all the darkness that would be around them. So the pertinence of the test in this life remains intact while god is justified in the allowance of evil, including the deaths of innocents, due to his ultimate design. Of course, this is not without liberal interpretation and speculation of scripture. But I dare any fundamentalists to argue how this interpretation goes against any of the basic values of christianity in terms of how god expects us to live and exist with one another. Also, while this returns the theology to soundness in my mind, it of course does NOT prove that god, heaven/hell, etc. does exist without a doubt. It just removes any contradiction within the ideology itself (at least for me). But one still has to believe in it to begin with.

                • sklyjd says:

                  Unfortunately, Steven you appear to be doing exactly as apologetics are doing. You are building a story to suit the ideology.

                  Remember the Bible was written by various people over a long period of time and this is why stories have discrepancies and there are many interpretations of what it all means. Logically, from the evidence they are all just stories borrowed from former older obsolete religions and ideas from the minds of the writers, that much is plain to see.

                  There is no heaven or hell for children, they sadly did not have the chance of a life.

                  • Steven Boyd says:

                    Exactly. I see christianity as merely (as the philosopher Alan Watts would put it) a “model”–a way of looking at the world. Which is essentially what science is. Science presents a model of explaining the world as it is, and then tests the model to see if it matches up. The difference is that science is more concerned with the “how”, whereas religion attempts more aptly to explain the “why”. Also, science has less issue with deconstructing or tossing out old models or models that no longer fit, whereas religion tends to have a bit more difficulty doing this. But this is where I feel religion, particularly christianity, could benefit greatly. As it currently stands, I feel the model for christianity is (as you described) old. It needs a newer, more fresh interpretation. One that still maintains the essence of its ideologies, but also takes into account that which we know of and are more aware of today. Whether or not christianity is true in a literal sense is not actually important. I feel the themes of christian ideals can have great benefit to humanity so long as it corroborates with actual human experience. So to clarify your initial statement, what I’m actually doing is building a story that will suit the ideology much better to reality. You say there is no heaven or hell, but the reality is we don’t know that. All we can do is believe and/or speculate. What I’m attempting to do is speculate in such a way that does not conflict with reality but still upholds basic christian values. Science does the same: theories have come and gone, they have been changed and altered, but from the very dawn of science, the scientific method established basic values that are maintained until this day.

                    • consultgtf says:

                      Very Good argument and nice points to discuss, but are you talking, Bible in general or new testament in particular…?

                      As we have not changed from the biblical time of Adam and Eve, though we are planning to land on Mars or… but still not able to control our basic senses!

                • consultgtf says:

                  I agree and disagree with you, Lets start from the beginning…

                  God Made Everything, and asked us to live…but as a CREATOR, He has every right to test us. We failed, they were not as brainy as we are but We, who can create very similarly to God’s creation are not able to control our senses, and suffer only because of that not that God gave you AIDS or HIV, or …You are the reason NOT God!

                  • Steven Boyd says:

                    I’m trying to reply to your latest comment, but for some reason there’s no reply button, so I’m replying to your earlier comment (and my reply can more or less apply to both anyway). I’m talking about christianity as a whole, including both old & new testaments. And my argument can apply to any religion, basically–islam, buddhism, hinduism. They’re all “models” thru which men have intuited (divinely or otherwise) ways of explaining the world and man’s role in it. I believe that in all of these there is an essence which is true. All the details surrounding them is irrelevant as to whether or not they are also true and should be allowed to change so that they communicate and reveal better the underlying essence. That essence, I feel, is faith. Faith in “the all” or the “ultimate higher power” (god) and not in our “selves”–or at least, not in our “selves” as distinct, isolated, separated, or without “the all” (god). I would say the reason we cannot control our senses is mainly because of our having a “misdirected faith”.

      • Holly Kennedy says:

        Concerning the ‘free will’ and ‘it is our choice’ thought process, it always makes me think for a minute, especially being born in the United States, where we are quite ‘free’ as compared to the majority of countries in the world. I’m so grateful that my children were born here and to know that I can reasonably expect them to be safe and free all of their lives. This is one of our greatest achievements as Americans, if not the greatest, and most of us understand that we may have to fight for it or send our sons and daughters to fight for it, from time to time. Freedom is our core belief and was really our purpose for choosing to come here. (We surely screwed the original Americans though, and yes, I know our military often has to fight for politician’s evil designs and not true freedom). Regardless, I am still most grateful and yet extremely sad that so many in this world are not free. It seems to me that is why so many want to come live here.

        But this isn’t the kind of freedom that Christians espouse. What they are saying is that we are ‘free’ to make a choice – choose “God” or not. But then they totally contradict themselves by saying, BUT………..IF you don’t “choose God”, then you will suffer in hell for eternity. So really, folks, it’s not a ‘choice’ at all, is it?

        We aren’t even told why. One is not allowed to even question it…(have “faith”)….It’s like a parent saying…”because I said so, that’s why”. Now most parents wouldn’t torture their child for disobeying, even if the child did something dangerous. We would be too busy hugging them and thanking goodness that they are okay, safe and sound. In fact, good parents would never torture their children or anyone else’s children at all, for any reason, not even for a split second.

        And if we are given the so-called “gift” of free will by “God”, why did he leave out the children? Aren’t they people and even more important considering they are completely dependent and innocent? Doesn’t it matter that a little child cannot choose? The adult can choose to abuse the child, but the child cannot choose to make it stop. And praying hasn’t proven to produce results for that child. This would be a large and important prayer too, not the run-of-the-mill, “please god send ME something good today” prayer.

        I do know, for a fact, that as a mother, I could not allow my child or any child to spend one second in this Hell. I would die to stop it without a second thought. I would kill to stop it. I would blow up the universe to stop it. That is what love is. Isn’t “God” love? That’s what it says in the bible. It sure does. Maybe the bible god has a different definition of love? It must be so because even thinking about some of the things he ordered his Christians to do, would never even enter my mind when thinking about my children or anyone else’s children or even animals or even adult people.

        Those with the least little bit of compassion could never deliberately hurt another human being or animal, but most especially not a little child. But I am expected to worship someone who hurts others deliberately – all in the name of demanding my worship.

        If there is a creator, he gave me a brain and the universe and nature to ponder with and learned and inquisitive minds to share their knowledge and he also gave me the ability to “think”. When you say I could never understand him and just have to have faith, it isn’t logical. How could I make a ‘choice’ to choose “God” if I didn’t think about it first? You read your bible to understand god, don’t you? Or do you?

        I believe in freedom and all it means, including choice of religion, or anything else. I don’t believe that I’m going to hell for not worshiping the kind of god who must have men write it in a book for him. After all, wouldn’t it be more reliable to just tell us about himself. Or maybe let us know in a creative way like nature. Or maybe to truly be there for us as a “father” would, if indeed he thinks of himself as the father. We are told to worship him as the father, or we are bad and hell-bound. I’ve never understood that concept worship. When I was little I suppose I worshiped my dad, but when I grew in age and knowledge, I realized we were equal and yet we still loved each other. Being equal made the love more authentic and meaningful. I can be grateful for the beauty in the world and grateful that it was (my belief) created, but I wouldn’t worship. That’s just not real love at all. It’s more of a master/slave relationship.

        If anyone wants to respond, please don’t use scripture to validate your beliefs to me. I’ve already heard it all. Use your brain, your own thoughts and ideas, please.

        • Stella says:

          Dear Holly Kennedy, I just love your post. It is very meaningful. Thanks.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hi Holly Kennedy!

          I liked your thoughts and thank you for sharing them with us.

          There are always other explanations for the contradictions between doctrine and the empirical evidence available to us. God is defined as that Being which created the universe and everything within it, and has the attributes: omnipotence; omniscience; omnipresence; goodness; and love.

          There is no empirical evidence that a creative Being, said to have brought us to existence, has all these limitless attributes – the Holy Bible only serves to confuse us with accounts that compromise them. There may be a creative force, a genesis factor, that generates life in the right circumstances, but it should be inappropriate to call this force God.

          If earth is the only planet that has life, and God was the motive force that brought it into being, what is the purpose of the rest of the universe? An omnipotent Being could have constructed just our Solar System, for instance.

          This is what Epicurus had to say about God:

          Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

          To conclude, there are other possibilities when considering how we came to be. If we want to believe in a Creator, we, as limited human beings may benefit from re-defining such a Being so that it is at least consistent with the empirical evidence. If we did that, it would enable our young to think about it more logically, unencumbered by a book that causes its believers to become apologists of God.

          Peace to all,

          Dinos

    • Danielle says:

      Why did you not answer the question ? I would be honored to hear your answer. I read the 10 Commandments was i to find the answer there? Im sorry I did not. What sin are you asking forgiveness for when you have a discussion with a fellow man? I cannot imagine what that would be? Is it for your judgmental and unsupported comments? About him living any way he wants? And what about his lifestyle? Where did the writer address this? I am very confused. I do understand agreeing to disagree, i have ended many discussions in this very same way. I under no circumstance believe you honestly wanted to bless the writer, i felt far too much animosity in your words for that to be true, but isn’t that what God tells you to do or is it. Please correct me for i do not want to walk around with a head full of nonsense about Christians and their beliefs, how they judge a man by his beliefs or lack there of and possibly just his opinions. Oh and your second paragraph, wow i dont know what to say ???? Did your bible really not have the definition? Simply too hard for me to believe you. I hope i haven’t wasted your time in reading my reply. I have this feeling, a feeling of loss, wgat is it??? Maybe it is the fact that i really missed out today, something lost here that I really needed to hear because i had a purpose fhis Sunday morning when I Googled this questions.. Oh now wait are you saying that you do not agree with the writer ? Is that the case ? So why does God allow innocent children to suffer and die? My friend I do wish to cross paths with you one day, I would say with the utmost respect and genuineness, well my friend I guess we shall agree to disagree this day, namaste dear one namaste

    • Paul says:

      I thought that the author of this article made some interesting points about free will: why we are prevented from going underwater while a rapist is not prevented from torturing a little boy for ten hours?. And what about terminally-ill babies? They do not have free will to escape their untimely death, but a rapist is allowed to brutally murder an eight-year old. It seems that this free will thing is VERY selective indeed.

      I absolutely believe 100% in a creative intelligence, but I do not believe that the Christian faith gives satisfactory answers to the problem of suffering. This is because it won’t face up to the reality that this life is a play or a game dreamed up by a creative intelligence. The Bible is the script to a play. There are scripts for other plays too, such as the Vedas in Hinduism. The Bible is absolutely the work of a creative intelligence, (as are the Vedas) but people can’t see the wood for the trees and get ridiculously bogged down in archaic Old Testament rules which are now rendered obsolete by the New Testament. It seems to a great deal of people that this life is the main event. But it is not. We can only see and feel a small slice of ‘frequency’ at the moment.

      So, when put in that context, pain and suffering are part of the game. A game designed to allow us to see two sides of a coin; to learn and grow before the frequency is expanded and we return to our real home. If you think this is nonsense then the game is doing the job for which it was designed. The task for humans is not to pass some piety pissing contest, but to wake up and see who they really are.

  2. VeryHonestlySpeaking says:

    Because God is very Evil, and a real God would’ve never did that.

    • Stella says:

      god is no better than evil if both exist

      • Andrew Longmire says:

        You don’t know God or wouldn’t say something so ridiculous about him. Just an excuse to live the way you want to live, and do what you want to do no matter the consequences, but thats your choice and you have a right to that. That’s one thing God will not do, impose himself upon your own will.

        • While I have no qualms with people having the right to believe whatever they want, one of the negative side-effects of Christianity is how it encourages followers to view non-Christians as either broken “fools” or sinners chasing after “the lusts of the flesh.”

          Honestly, if I could reason that God likely existed (and all that stuff about talking snakes and global floods wasn’t just made up), I’d be all over it! Why on earth would I reject endless love and eternal life for a few years of fleeting pleasure? And an eternity in hell?

          Speaking of which, you say God doesn’t “impose,” but what is eternal damnation but the biggest imposition of them all? It’s as if God has said, “You don’t HAVE to choose to love me and repent, but know that if you don’t, you will be tortured forever. But either way… it’s totally up to you… I wouldn’t want to impose.”

          Take care,
          500Q

          • Anonymous says:

            It’s seems that even though we know what will happen, we still choose to doom ourselves. Adam and Eve knew that by eating the fruit they would receive mortality and yet they still choose that. If you did not have any choice in the matter you would not know about the consequences of your actions. We all know that in doing evil deeds we lead ourselves to damnation, yet we continue on this path. God is all Knowing, meaning that there is a possibility of infinite futures for you, in those futures there might be a few where you do decide to follow the path to God and that might be why you’re here on this site, seeking answers. We try and imagine what God is like with our limited minds and then we make presumptions of how God is.

            We also presume to know what He knows (If God knows where you will end up then why does he not send us to hell or heaven without having us suffer on earth?)… Our knowledge of God could be compared to a speck of dust floating in the universe. God is bigger than us, so much more than us, who knows maybe He intended to repopulate the earth after it was wiped clean because He saw the possibilities of us making the right choices and choose Him instead of temptation.

            He might have know the evil we where capable of but He also knew what great good we where capable of. If we choose to be good instead. Maybe the good out ways the bad in all your infinite possibilities for a future, God could force you to be only good but that means forcing His hand and taking away your choice, when He knows you yourself is cable of making the right choice without Him having to intervene, He has seen it in your infinite possibilities of futures and He is patiently waiting for you to make the right choice…

            We can not even begin to try and understand or know anything that He does. It’s impossible. I only know that the God that I love would never force anyone to follow Him, He warns them of what is to come to make them live moral lives yet so many ignore it. He watches sadly as humanity breaks the world that he created, He watches people give into temptation, He watches and waits for them to see the wrong they do, yet they ignore Him and carry on.

            He sees greed consume people because they want more than what they need. He sees small children being harmed because grown ups are no longer reliable to look after children, they give into their sexual temptations without a second thought. He watched the media broadcast sex and violence across the world because that is what makes money – Money the root of all evil.

            He watches children rape each other, they saw this on TV once and it was something that tempted them into trying it too. He waits for the people to return to what He intended them to be, to follow the moral guidelines He gave them, but they close their eyes and ears to His calling.

            Even the churches sin against God and use the power He gave them for controlling people and making money. God intended them to use their power for good to nurture the people , to protect the children, to help the sick and those in need. He gave us insight into curing deceases yet we prolong peoples suffering because money got involved and healthy people don’t pay if they are healthy.

            We turn a blind eye and we blame Him because we refuse to blame ourselves. We think that we are better than God even though he has giving us the power to stop abuse, rape, disease, the suffering of the world. We stand back and say we are alone even though there are so many people who can ban together to stop all of this, we refuse to because we do not want to inconvenience ourself to ease the suffering of the world but yet we complain about it. We blame God because we are too afraid to follow His path and save the damned.

            Maybe you should ask yourself, what you have done to right wrongs, even if it is small things you do in your everyday life. What have you done to feed the hungry, to save the children, to stop the pain and suffering? Have you done anything or have you stood back and blamed God for your incompetence to do so? I will admit that I have done this in the past but I am doing more everyday to change that. As they say change starts with YOU.

            • GREG BANTER says:

              amen

            • Anonymous says:

              ” I don’t believe that I’m going to hell for not worshiping the kind of god who must have men write it in a book for him. After all, wouldn’t it be more reliable to just tell us about himself”. The above is quoting what you yourself wrote. God does tell us in the bIble.Yers,it was written by men,men who God chose,but they did not make these things up and if you actually read God’s word you would understand better.

            • sklyjd says:

              If you had the power to change the world such as feeding the starving millions with let’s say plenty of rain every year to water and grow their dying food crops would you use your free will to do that? Of course you would, however, if everyone knew that with a snap of your fingers you could save millions of lives but instead you decided for some crazy reason you let them all die of hunger how would you be judged by humans with a free will?

              In this modern world people demand action from those with the power to do something to make a big difference, such as politicians and when it comes to any god who is claimed to have so much power and love for the people dying from hunger, and the god does nothing, he will also be judged very harshly by people with free will.

              By the way literally tons of money have been sent for decades and is still is sent to poor countries, however due to many of the world’s problems and disasters and many not in control by the human race we need a god right now who can step up.

              Over $500 billion (U.S.) has been sent to African nations in the form of direct aid. The consensus is that the money has had little long-term effect. Quoted from Wikipedia.

          • Val Kelly says:

            You cut right to the quick ! I see God everywhere I look in the majesty of things He has made – His glory is apparent and obvious to those that can see – but, but ,but – all the questions you pose are relevant to the thinking mind, and I will go to the grave anguishing over the suffering of innocent children.

            • consultgtf says:

              THAT’S FOR GOOD PEOPLE, though.
              But not for those who wants to satisfy their senses, WHO CANNOT CONTROL it, but later cry for life long…for satisfying their senses.

              • sklyjd says:

                Do you honestly believe the starving, sick and injured children suffer in pain because your god wants to punish the adult family members and if all these adults lived a life free of sin children would stop suffering and dying???

                And asking any elders would confirm this? Well I am an elder person and my opinion is that it is one of the most complete and utter nonsense posts I have read by an extremist for years, ask any elder, they will agree.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hi Andrew Longmire!

          Please accept the following discourse as positively as you can. You’re a human being, as well as a believer, and I mean to challenge your mind and not to harm your soul.

          If God does not, “… impose Himself upon your own will”, why are you judging Stella, on God’s behalf, with, “You don’t know God or wouldn’t say something so ridiculous about him.” You’re sharing a forum with a wide range of belief and disbelief concerning God. As a believer, you’re expected to show restraint when people use words about God that you don’t like. Also, you’re expected to demonstrate love and kindness, as Jesus did, according to the gospels.

          Have you considered the possibility that Stella may be right? There are many different versions of the Bible in English. Many Christians consider the King James Version (KJV) to be the most faithfully translated. This is what was translated from Hebrew to English in the KJV, Isaiah 45:7 –

          “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” If you want the full text of that chapter, check the link below:

          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45&version=KJV

          Other versions like the New International Version (NIV) put it differently –

          “I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.” Below is the link to that chapter:

          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045

          Do you see how you can be misled by the adulteration of translation? The word “evil” is a translation from the Hebrew word “ra”. Below is a link to the Torah version in Hebrew and English side by side:

          http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1045.htm

          You’re free to investigate this for yourself, of course, and here is another extract for you:

          Isaiah 45:7
          HEB: שָׁל֖וֹם וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה
          NAS: and creating calamity; I am the LORD
          KJV: peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
          INT: well-being and creating calamity I am the LORD

          The link from which it came is below:

          http://biblehub.com/hebrew/ra_7451.htm

          Words are a human creation, wherever you find them, and beliefs, based on words, are not facts. We should be moderate with each other on Forums such as this, whatever our beliefs.

          Peace and love to all,
          Dinos Constantinou
          (dinoconstant)

        • Stella says:

          Andrew,
          I think I do know very well why I have decide to say “god is no better than evil if both exist”. I used to be a very strong believe who took in all what the bible said but when disaster struck me, I ran to god for refuge as stated in the bible that he is our refuge in times of trouble but I could not find any help. I do not think any loving parent would do this to his children when they need him most. I later came to realise that all bible writings are just “cooked up stories”. Up to now I have failed to see talking snakes. If god was looking why did he decide to put the tree of knowledge in the middle of the garden and why would he not want adam and eve to have know?
          If at all heaven exists and if at all there is life after death, why do even belief seek medical attention when they fall sick? Why would they not accept to die because they will have eternal life?
          I get amazed every time I go the hospital and find even bishops seeking for medical treatment yet they know very well that heaven exist.
          Please do not be decieved, the bible is like any other literature and it is not until when you get trouble is when you can dig out the truth about god. There is nothing like god, jesus, heaven or hell. When we die, that is it period.

          • Pan says:

            We tend to only truly believe in God when we need something from Him, but our faith wanes when we have nothing troubling us. Would it not be grand to never have to prove our faith in God? O wait, God gave us that chance but we turned our back on it it.

            Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

            “Those scriptures struck me deep in my heart when I read them. For over 40 years I thought I was a Christian, but then discovered I wasn’t. I was not doing the will of God, but I was living in the world as I sat in a pew singing and praising God on Sunday. It was all a sham, but I didn’t realize it. Satan had me exactly where he wanted me, sitting in a church pew complete ignorant and undone. In the scriptures above, who was Jesus talking to? It was to those who think or say they are Christians, that’s who. Those “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” (2 Timothy 3:5)”
            The link to read further if you wish: http://www.discoverrevelation.com/Salvation.htm

            The, of course people who have faith go to the doctor, God expects us to do everything in our power as humans to help cure diseases. We can’t just expect God to do all the work.
            “4 He who watches the wind will not sow and he who looks at the clouds will not reap.”

            If we stand idly by when we know there is something we can do then God will not reward us.

            “5 Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things. 6 Sow your seed in the morning and do not be idle in the evening, for you do not know whether morning or evening sowing will succeed, or whether both of them alike will be good.”

            But we can pray that the advise and treatment we get from the doctors will cure us and because we did our part God will do His.

            “Pray without ceasing
            One of the reasons we feel our prayers are not being answered, is because we stop praying.

            1 Thessalonians 5:17 says it best, “pray without ceasing.” Paul is more direct in Philippians 4:6, “In everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.”

            God is eternal and does not measure time as we do. 2 Peter 3:8: “Beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

            Never turn your back on God. We asks you to return to him everyday.
            3 ‘Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’ 4 For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says about the houses in this city and the royal palaces of Judah that have been torn down to be used against the siege ramps and the sword 5 in the fight with the Babylonians[a]: ‘They will be filled with the dead bodies of the people I will slay in my anger and wrath. I will hide my face from this city because of all its wickedness. – God will punish who does not listen in his own good time.

            And as for the bible being filled with made up stories – Please go do some proper research before making such claims. The Bible has a lot of actual history in it.

    • Anonymous says:

      God is not evil, children die because of what is happening. The barcode of hell has spread and the microchip of the beast has gone into people already since Jesus was born. Think of what your saying right now cause once you go to hell you will never come out no matter what happens!

      • Dino says:

        Now that’s the real veryhonestlyspeaking and the ironic truth is, there are two different truths. Some truly believe we “are just here” while others, myself included faithfully believe “God” is why we are here. For those who don’t believe in a Devine creator, I’d ask them to explain how they came to be? Sounds confusing how it’s worded, but then you simply put it; you were born into existence from a male and female human. Everyone has an origin that leads back to what we all know as a mother and father (simple enough). The origin of humanity is not the “big bang”. Come on now! I can sit here and come up with some pretty crude jokes with the word bang, but let me just say it takes two to tango and the origin of Jesus Christ is God and we are simply asked to live believing that this is the Truth and live a life accordingly.

        Some of us standardize our way of living based on biblical teachings while others live by ways defined by humanistic standards (Kardashian, Hollywood, news media, McDonald’s, iPhone, selfies, me-me-me, etc.).
        Some people just don’t get it, which is another sad truth. Reality is not found in “reality t.v.” it’s found when you’re completely alone and so many rebellious people towards the true origin of our existence live a reality that is far from what they truly want; which they’ll never know unless they find God through the reality of Christ.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hello Dino!

          I’m not going to challenge you for your own beliefs, which I respect, as I respect the beliefs of all concerning God.

          There are other possibilities than to presume that God is:

          Omnipotent; Omnipresent; Omniscient (knowing all); Goodness without evil; etc. These are not based on religious belief or disbelief, but on philosophy and logical reasoning – things that are readily dismissed by people whose faith is unshakable, but the inescapable truth is that only God knows the whole truth, we only glimpse it.

          I’ve tried to be kind by offering explanations for why suffering and death of innocent children might happen: Vitalistic Theory; God may not have all the attributes that we assign to Him, etc, in my other posts. I have not quoted much from my Bible (Orthodox Christian version with explanations from the Church Fathers), in an effort to avoid boring readers who are not Christians, and there are many on this forum.

          I think you should know the truth according to the KJV of the Bible:

          I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things – Isaiah 45:7. If you want the full text of that chapter, check the link below:

          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45&version=KJV

          Other versions of the Bible have moderated this passage, but you see the point: that God created evil, only He knows why, and it’s natural for us to speculate on it! Discussion, if you want it as a committed Christian, should honestly start from there.

          Peace and every blessing to all,

          Dinos Constantinou
          (dinoconstant)

      • dinoconstant says:

        Dear Anonymous!

        I’d like to know which Christian denomination you belong to that dispenses fear of hell to persuade people to repent and seek salvation? You should know that it doesn’t work and makes it less likely for people to turn to God in a good way. You’re acting on behalf of the Evil one, unwittingly, I hope!

        Despite the bad deeds of people, the integrity of human nature remains unaffected. This is the image of the Trinity. Christ came to save all humanity; not just you and others like you. This salvation is given freely and is independent of what we do. We do not have the capacity to save ourselves by choosing to believe in God and attempting to lead a sinless life. This is the true doctrine of the early Christian Church. You have departed far from it but do not worry. We will all be united with God, eventually. Nobody is condemned to hell, although it may feel like that if you have gone against your true nature, extensively, when you are united with God – that’s the true meaning of hell.

        Peace be with you, in Christ, Saviour of all mankind,

        Dinos

  3. You are assuming that children are not able to continue a greater purpose from their eternal life home. That is not true.

    #AriOrange #MagnetToJesus #ForeverMine

    • Hi Sara,

      First of all, I’m opposed to the unnecessary suffering of children regardless of whether or not they die. The innocent should not be punished for crimes they did not commit.

      But for the sake of argument, let’s assume ALL dead children DO go on to heaven to continue a greater purpose in eternal life. I would still argue it was wrong of God to cause the innocent to suffer, but I would also wonder why God would give them life at all. Why not just create them in heaven and spare them all the suffering? In fact, why not just create us ALL in heaven and spare us ALL the suffering?

      If your answer is, “We MUST exist here to choose God of our own free will!” Then what is the logic in allowing these children to be taken out before they’ve had the opportunity to exercise their free will?

      This also raises the question, “Why not just kill all children to guarantee their place in heaven?” If we believe 100% of dead children get into heaven, we shouldn’t risk the possibility of letting them grow up to choose hell.

      500Q

      • What if there is no such thing as hell to begin with? But just heaven for everyone.

        • Then we are no longer here to a make choice, because the choice has already been made for us. And if that’s the case, why not just create us in heaven? Why create billions of innocent creatures (animals and children) only to have them suffer before entering heaven?

          500Q

          • Dino says:

            Earth is a testing ground for heaven. God created us in his image in heaven and we all know how that turned out. (fallen angels) . The spirit world the heaven that is being prepared for us is what we have to look forward too. If His had created us in heaven, then, that heaven would be earth. Now, wait a minute, so are we in heaven here on earth? Ummm….. No, why not? Because it sure doesn’t feel like it. But, for those of you who believe in everything that the Bible and the Holy Spirit has led you to believe and if your heart, mind, body, and soul has felt, what you know to be God, then you know there is an after life and the perfect heaven our Lord and savior is preparing for us. Jesus Christ has said I am going to prepare a place for the people he loves and does for. The mortals, the humans; we are a creation of God, he created us because, remeber we were created in His image and with that I’m sure is curiosity. Don’t we tey new things? Don’t we have a need for children? A spouse? A new car? Now, I’m really sounding like who knows? My point is God created us period! Why? I don’t know, but I don’t believe a baby was created first, the baby would not have survived. God created Adam, then Eve and eve nurtured and cared for the first baby evere; Cain! And that’s where it all started. Evolution did not happen! The 1st baby if anything would die on its own! Man was created first and God was the teacher, not rocket science. Just chew on that…. Really put some thought on how anything would survive. Go have a baby and put him in the jungle, I’m talking a fresh new born and see how that experiment pans out……WAIT no, don’t do that cause we know the outcome, duh. So first person here on earth? Bingo! Adam, who was his teacher? Bingo God. Why did he create us? I don’t know, but I Wil live a faithful life and find out. You nonbelievers may find out in hell or never know and just turn to dust. I’m awaiting my judgement day by my creator, God! Amen.

            • Anonymous says:

              DINO: VERY NICELY SAID!! And I agree 100% And AMEN!!!

            • donnie says:

              What if you found out Cain and Abel were not Adams sons? Reread eve ate the fruit 1st. Wish we know wasn’t fruit. It was sex. Why didn’t she awaken then? Only when she and Adam unite did they awaken and saw they were in darkness not” some beautiful garden. I am tired if this world and the deceptions that are abundant. Soon if what I know is to happen pray I get it right. For to long the innocent have suffered needlessly. If what some know of me is true I’m sorry this happened. I battle this everyday within myself. Due to the brainwashing of a belief that was handed done through centuries. Many came to stop me when something powerful happened 7 years ago. They say God sent them but my gifts knew they were evil. Think about this. God came to this world and by thus very act is trapped also just like all people and has to Awaken to who he is so as to make right what went wrong. And that means you are not alone in your suffering. And he crys everyday till he truly believes this. And when he learns his real name not the names men know will it happen and he can put and end to this darkness? I am what I am. Its been along journey. I’m tired. Only because of my visions do I ponder this. And someone or something has protected me all my life. Some saw things that should have killed me but yet I still stood it drove one mad. Many events to speak of. Please pray the way Jesus taught. Not out loud. The lords prayer. Please do this for me if not for the innocent. Remember our father in secret knows. Thanks and truly sorry for this suffering. Amen

              • dinoconstant says:

                Hello donnie!

                I won’t pretend to understand what you’ve written but I must thank you for sharing some part of your grief with us on the forum.

                I found it interesting that you posit that eating the fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden was a symbolic reference to having sex! Can you please let me know where you found this interpretation? If it was from the net, can you send me a link please?

                Many thanks,

                Dinos Constantinou (dinoconstant)

      • Ironically your site truly affirms my faith and I agree with so much of it. I don’t have to throw out God entirely to do so, just the repressive religious right slanted version of it I was raised with.

      • Stella says:

        Good reply. And who has ever confirmed the the existance of heaven? Why doe god have to be jealousy if he is above all things and has power over everything? Are there other things beyond his control and reach?

      • Stella says:

        I have just received sad news about the death of a friend from Malawai. This guy has had cancer (Retinoblasma) right from the time he was one year old on this earth. He has had this disease since then to the time of his death two days ago at the age of about 30 years. Let’s all put ourselves in the shoes of this guy’s parents. Would you continue believing in god when seeing your beloved one going through such kind of un explainable pain? Tried to called upon god for all this years but with no answer?. I have gone through such experience and that is why I personally say. There is totally no god. Why would he punish such innocent children for the sins they did not commit? What I have come to know about all this so called religion be it Christianity or otherwise is just a fiction. If god was all loving, forgiving why did he not forgive Adam and Eve since that was their first sin?. Someone must have “cooked” this story of the so called god to manuplate and control the populace in the name of inheriting eternal life which will never ever be there at all. The coming back of the so called jesus has been song thousands of years ago but generations after generations have gone but where is this guy? By the way jesus was born of man and woman just like any of us and died.
        The bible says it was the serpent that tricked Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. I want someone to show me which serpent is able to talk or speak to this day since it and Eve were able to talk to each other, meaning serpent even up to now should be able to speak.
        The bible says jesus carried it all on the cross, why is there still suffering, death, agony and many things happening in the world?.
        I do not believe in god, nor jesus, nor the bible. First of all the bible contradicts itself.
        Why do things happen them satan is blamed? Who created? Is it more powerful than god?
        I am not trying to say say that people should not believe in god. It is one’s choice but I for one I will never again believe neither trust in god after all the calls I made to him during the painful sickness and death my son went through.All religious books are man made none sense. There is nothing like god, eternal life, hell heaven, nothing at all. We die and that is it period.

        • Anonymous says:

          Stella: I am so very sorry to hear of your loss. I cannot imagine – I have never been in your shoes and I can see how going through that would question your faith. I do know however, there is a God. (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). The fact is, the teaching that God causes suffering causes more suffering. The idea that God gives people what they deserve, that our misdeeds cause our misfortune, is a neat and attractive solution to the problem of evil at several levels, but it has a number of serious limitations. It teaches people to blame themselves. It creates guilt even where there is no basis for guilt. It makes people hate God, even as it makes them hate themselves. And most disturbing of all, it does not even fit the facts…

          Sometimes we try to make sense of life’s trials by saying that people do in fact get what they deserve, but only over the course of time. At any given moment, life may seem unfair and innocent people may appear to be suffering. But if we wait long enough, we believe, we will see the righteousness of God’s plan emerge. The value of one human life is a lesson well taught in Scripture, especially in many of the parables of Jesus. What was the lesson of the one lost sheep? What was the value of the one lost coin? Was it not the importance of one individual to God? The following verses corroborate this truth:

          Deuteronomy 32:9-11
          (9) For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.
          (10) In a desert land he found him, in a barren and howling waste. He shielded him and cared for him; he guarded him as the apple of his eye,
          (11) Like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them on its pinions.

          Christian brothers and sisters who have handled distressing and difficult times by taking comfort in the belief that everything that happens to us is somehow the will of God. If this is you, please know that not everything that happens to us is the will of God, but the Christian who stands firm in the faith will eventually see that we have a God who turns “lemons into lemonade.” ALWAYS TRY ADN REMEMBER……the justice of God will prevail and, thankfully, the suffering of God’s people will end. At that time, the saved will see God’s justice dealt to the wicked (Matthew 5:11,12; Romans 2:5-11; 2 Thessalonians 1:6,7; 2 Peter 2:1-10). Very few people really do excuse God. Most feel angry, hurt and betrayed. Their tragedy (bad enough by itself) and their anger toward God are then compounded by the guilt they feel for being angry at God. Furthermore, they have no basis to ask God to relieve their suffering. This is how terribly frustrating life can become due to error about God’s Word in regard to evil, sin and suffering.

          Finally, remember, when you are truly Saved by Christ, meaning you admit that you are a Sinner, and acknowledge that Christ died for your Sin and ask him into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior….you can be Saved. Only at that time will you have love, joy, PEACE (Gal. 5) and will know how to live in wearing all of his armour. God be with you all who have experienced suffering and questioning your faith. GOD IS REAL. God bless us all.

          • Stella says:

            Thanks, but I do not want to hear anything referring to the bible. It does not work for me. I believed in it so many years ago but I did not get any help and neither did I see any sense in it. I like what Dinoconsult has just posted in this blog. To me there is no god. I just want to live the way animals do because we are no better than them.

            • Anonymous says:

              Regardless, Stella, I will keep you in my prayers. I hear so much hate and bitterness and I am so sorry your life events have turned you away from God. It is not God’s fault…please stop blaming him.

              • Stella says:

                So please tell me whose fault was it. I ran to god for safety but he was not there to help me and hear my prayers yet the bible gives a lot of promises about trusting in god which I used to do right from my childhood. So who else should I blame. I thought the bible teaches us that god is above everything or are there somethings that are above him?

          • sklyjd says:

            Anonymous, the science backs up not a single word you say, just read over what you wrote slowly and it is obviously just superstitious nonsense.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Thank you Stella for sharing the sad story about your friend from Malawai. I have never heard of the disease that he suffered for 29 years of his life. I tried a web search and was offered information on a condition with a slightly different spelling than the one you used. I should be grateful if you would let me know if the condition in the link below is the one your friend suffered from, please:

          http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/retinoblastoma/Pages/Introduction.aspx

          You raised some important points in your post. My feeling is that God is not as described, if He exists at all. If we assume that He does exist, then the facts point to a Being who: lacks empathy towards the creatures on this planet, or, is indifferent to their suffering, or, is both malevolent and benevolent, or, is incapable of preventing suffering of animals and human beings alike (this would mean that He is not omnipotent), or, any combination of the above.

          Of course I am leaving myself open to the riposte that He doesn’t lack empathy. Jesus suffered, and therefore God (as part of the Holy Trinity) suffered, an extreme flogging, and then crucifixion, which should have given Him first hand experience of human suffering. However, I’m quite sceptical that we can learn anything about God from what is referred to as the Holy Bible. This is a book that purports to be God’s revelation to man. There is considerable disagreement on the interpretations of the texts, possibly due to wrong translations of the original texts, even among scholars!

          The Holy Bible consists of 27 books in the New Testament (NT), which were written in Greek. There is disagreement about the number of books in the Old Testament (OT), which were written mostly in Hebrew, in a form without vowels, open to misinterpretation! Within Christianity, the number of books varies according to the broad categories below:

          Orthodox — 49 books
          Catholic —– 46 books
          Protestant — 39 books

          It is remarkable that there should be such a difference, and each of the broad categories think they are right about which books to include, and which to exclude, from the Bible!

          I have written an alternative possibility about life forms depending on a ‘Vital Force’. I posted it on March 7 at 11.57 pm. It provides for another explanation of why there is suffering. It lies forlorn and neglected, unrated and without reply, at the end of this long chain of 860+ responses to Question 17 from 500Q!

          I’ve pasted it’s intro here to help you find it if you’re interested:

          dinoconstant says:
          March 7, 2016 at 11:57 PM
          I’m forever in debt to people who are willing to share their views on discussion forums and thankful to those who take the time to create web sites and write posts that are interesting enough to inspire responses. Below is an extract I wrote about the concept of ‘sin’ on another web site……

          I’m uncertain if it was me you were referring to as ‘Dinoconsult’ in your most recent post:

          Stella says:
          March 10, 2016 at 9:10 AM
          Thanks, but I do not want to hear anything referring to the bible. It does not work for me. I believed in it so many years ago but I did not get any help and neither did I see any sense in it. I like what Dinoconsult has just posted in this blog. To me there is no god. I just want to live the way animals do because we are no better than them.

          Thank you if you took the trouble to read this long post – Dinos Constantinou, 11/03/16.

          • Stella says:

            Yes DinoConstant. The condition in the link you quoted is the one my friend suffered from and letter succumbed to it. Thanks for your kind words.

          • Anonymous says:

            Dinoconstant…..I read your reply to Stella. I cannot believe that you would lead her to a writing that offers an explanation of No God. You seem to know a lot about the Bible, times, etc. and most Athiests do. NO ONE can explain the Holy Spirit and most certainly if you are not born again he does not live in you. I feel so sorry for you and all the Lost people out there that has not felt God’s love and peace even through the most awful trials and grief and then tries to explain and debate what the bible says. It does not matter the religion, doctrine, scripture…….it is Jesus and only through him can we get to our Father in eternity. I feel you may have alredy been turned over to a reprobate mmind as it is written in Romans and that is so very sad because you will not be able to be Saved in later times and will suffer greatly during the Tribulation and then ultimately in hell and thrown to the Lake of Fire. Our home is not this World. We were never promised it would be easy, never. And we were never promised there would be no suffering….quite the contrary, especially if you follow Jesus and live your life for him. So many of you are so very confused. You can blog away and write as many books as you want, but you will never be able to understand the Word of God because you are not Saved and Jesus will not reveal that to you. Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling….think about that. I pray for us all. God Bless-

            • Ellen says:

              Have you ever read anything posted at ex-christian.net? There are tons of people who were saved, were ministers, active in church, you name it, but they’re not now, for many reasons.
              And there you go with the Fear Factor. Fear, trembling, suffering, penalties, and so on. Why should anyone have to suffer forever in eternal torment for their temporal crimes? What does it accomplish? What is the point?

              • Anonymous says:

                Why would anyone even chance it is my question???? Our bodies are only here on this earth for what….80 years if we are lucky! Remember 1 day to Jesus is 1000 years here on earth so imagine an eternity in hell and then to the lake of fire to dust. Remember we started out as dust and if lost in the end will be turned back to dust. My Goodness, why chance that? Is it that hard to love Jesus, the Creator? Is it that hard to follow his Commandments? Is it that hard to repent for our sins? Is it that hard to pray everyday? Is ii really acceptable to blame HIM for what MAN has turned this world into? Is it acceptable to blame HIM for our trials and grief? Is it that hard to humble yourself???? and yes, I greatly fear the Lord because I do know the Bible and 60% of his Word is Judgment, is it not…..his Word is unfolding everyday as it was written 2000 years ago and I cannot see how even the Lost cannot understand this and still think it is “okay” and still not fear HIM. I am SAVED and I FEAR the Lord still because I will still have to stand before him at the time of my taking and I want to hear his sweet words “you have been a good servent, enter in” NOT “I never knew you, depart from me”. I mean….really??? Could you imagine?? No thank you! I love my Lord and Savior for all he has blessed me with and I have suffered greatly in my own life and have lost loved ones in my own life and I do NOT blame HIM!!! Just the contrary, he helps me with my grief and gives me peace in my heart and his We are not to know everything and he has a purpose for every life and unfortunately that is not revealed until we stand before him rather that is when the Church is raptured or we die, including babies, and children. We all know babies and children (under the age) automatically is blessed with their life with the Lord. Why do they or any other innocent person have to suffer? We will never know but that does not mean we should just blame HIM. Is it really that hard???? On the short time we have here on this earth. Think about where you would be if you died at this very moment? Would you want to open your eyes in a beautiflul heaven or hell? It is a simple choice…to love, to not to love, to have peace in your heart, to not have peace in your heart, to forgive, to not forgive, the choice between life and death…..the choice is yours. The Lord lets us chose. And I pray you chose wisely and will keep you in prayer.

              • dinoconstant says:

                Thank you Ellen for your response to Anonymous’ attack of my post to Stella about her concerns. We must love God, find Him through Jesus, or we shall be condemned to Hell. Anyone who is not a ‘born again’ Christian is lost – how nice?

                Thank you for your reference to ex-christian.net, which is new to me!

                Peace and a good life to you,
                Dinos Constantinou

            • dinoconstant says:

              Hello Anonymous!

              I think the last paragraph of my piece based on the concept of Vitalistic Theory was lost on you it seems?

              I never described myself as an atheist; nor was my piece an explanation of No God. It’s the nature of God that I question and the acceptance of the possibility that He doesn’t exist!

              Why do you feel it necessary to categorise other bloggers? We don’t do it to you.

              How do you know whether the Holy Spirit lives in me or not? Are you a prophet?

              According to biblical texts, Christ had the power of knowing everything about a person even without meeting them! Do you have the same power to know me just from my blogs? Amazing!

              May God moderate your attitude to the rest of us mere mortals, condemned to Hell after we die.

              Peace,
              Dinos Constantinou (my true name)

              P.S. How is it possible that I am a full-time, live-in carer to my 93 year old mother, and put in 140 hours a week (includes nighttime), and neglect my own house occupied solely by my youngest son now? I will not get a penny more than my sister will after our mother passes. How do I do it without the Holy Spirit, which you assure me I am without? How do others do it without the Holy Spirit?

        • Anonymous says:

          Stella: Unfortunately then, you will never see your son again because you will be in hell, so your love for your son is not great. That is truth and that is black and white. You are right, we all have a choice and unfortunately you are making the wrong choice. God have mercy on your soul.

          • Boy, with friends like these, who needs enemies?😉

          • Stella says:

            Please, I think you are touching on a wrong button. Am not scared of hell since it never exists. Where is it and how many have you confirmed to be suffering there?. Yes I know I will never see my son since I will also be dead. How dead have you seen seeing each other. Bull shit with god.

            • Dino says:

              Anyone who does not believe in God is arguably confused in the matter. Two years ago I was not a believer. God to me was not real and people that believed and tried to talk to me of God would not make it past there 1st sentence. Maybe you’re angry with God? Deep down inside you feel that there is something beyond what is offered here on earth. Everyone living and breathing on this earth cannot deny the realities of a greater power. Our existence has been debated as being a miracle and I believe that we are indeed a miracle! The cruel things that happen on this earth are very unfortunate, but ask yourself what are the benefits to being cruel? What are the benefits to being kind and loving? What are the benefits to a God, allowing any of it? Are we simply a miracle and the miracle continues after death? A lot of questions, I know (?) So where am I going with this? Anyone in here denying God’s existence is aching for proof that when they die or have lost a loved one to death; these people are looking for proof, so that they might find purpose to why they’re hearts and mind ails them.

            • Holly Kennedy says:

              Stella, I lost my son also. He was 23 yrs. old. Please know that my heart goes out to you. I used to try to believe, studied the bible for years, tried different churches. Could never feel this ‘holy spirit’, but I have felt my son’s. Since I lost him, it’s really critical to me to know truth, not just my wishes. Peace to you and your son.

  4. http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hell_test.html

    Take out hell, and clearly the bible as literalism, no longer see the bible as the only source to know God and throw away all earthly man created theology – could it be that these human created things are actually what has created your doubt?

  5. Marc says:

    Great topic & post. I think that the useless & senseless suffering of children is the most compelling evidence of the inexistence of a caring God. That God is supposed to be a caring father of all mankind, but what kind of father would let one of his children viciously attack & even kill another, under the excuse of “preserving the free will” of the attacker? (It’s funny how theodicies never consider the issue of preserving the free will of the victim.) A real father wants to make sure all his children grow up respecting (& limited by) some value system, not getting away with destroying people & things because being impeded to do so would be some sort of existentially illegal restriction on their free will.

    & of course a father would want his child to learn to fend for herself, & would in most cases allow the child to experience things as needed to develop resilience. But he’d also pay attention & intervene whenever the child came upon challenges that she can’t tackle yet, when leaving her alone would result in her destruction, instead of education. Love is implied by involvement, not by abandoning your child to amoral competition.

    My apologies if people have already commented along these lines, & also for any typos or grammar mistakes, as English is not my first language.

    • Anonymous says:

      There is far more compelleing evidence that there is no god in the sky, than just children suffering. Here is the best evidence I’ve seen (But this all came to me within first)

      http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm

      It is not possible that the bible is the truth

      • Dino says:

        Someone posted this and appeared so grateful for finding their “holy grail” of truth! Lol…. This Andrew W. For not believing was pretty passionate for writing such a details of how “he” feels about religion. To me, again “me”, just as “he” sounds lost in emotions. He sounds angry, sad, and has figured out that when he dies, that’s it. Now according to what he wrote, he is the smartest man with no problems and if he does have problems he knows what to do. Wow! This guy is sounding more and more crazy than relgion. Sounds like the makings of a cult leader who wants people to believe and only listen to him because he is ” real and fleshy” I’m sure he was proud of himself and enjoys that people worship his every words, which is against everything he doesn’t believe in! His motives, madness, he is mad at the world and the religions who rule it, which include him. The 10 commandments, the constitution, all the rules that are on fact needed to protect us from single minded rulers like this Andrew Werner guy. I’m thankful that 12 years later this guy is nobody and the baseball player is much more known. God Bless this bad man.
        http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm

  6. Anonymous says:

    It’s funny how everybody in here blames why god why God. Why God you are not in control why. But yet when their parents tell them hey no your staying home tonight your not going out with those friends to party or with that boy to movies or to vacation with those people. Yet they get mad at partners having hate, or anger, blame, and complain my life sucks I hate this it’s not fair. But when they chose not to listen and things Happen instantly why God, why God, why God, why God. Make up your mind you double minded person. And make a decision either be obedient and have free will to do what ever and when things happen get arrested, raped, kidnaped, jail, got drugged, because you didn’t wanted to listen to your parents. Don’t complain we all not stupid enough. Allot of kids knows this days that they’re called bad guys, biggie man and evil. But yet that kid wanted to walk by him self or instead asking friends for ride home. There is always other way.

  7. hrmagoo says:

    Hi-I really feel you with this article yet, I am going to tell you a story that is more an exception to the rule than what is apparent in the world:
    I was beaten by my father. No, more than beaten..I had to take all my clothes off, spread my legs, bend over (while he masturbated) and then he would hit me until I peed the floor and screamed until my soul popped out of my body. While out of my body, I saw 3 monkeys (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil). This abuse lasted a few years until, at last, my father committed suicide.
    At 9 of 10 I had a lucid dream. Some telepathic voice showed me that my mother, sisters & entire (hateful religious) family would get on a train & leave me-I was so lonely & full of sorrow. This voice said I could choose to endure that pain or die. I was told to knock on the red door if I wanted to die. I chose to die but at the last minute, I changed my mind. I couldn’t wake up & a voice told me to close my eyes while in the dream and I would wake up, which I did.
    Now, I’m an artist who can communicate with (God?), Saints, the deceased.
    My cousin chose to die at 13 bc of her lonely life. I know it.
    I am so angry to see children getting sold in the sex industry & abused where it’s difficult to ever trust again. Maybe they were given a choice in a covert way…I really don’t know. I feel like “God” took my selfish.religious family away to save me from a lonely world without true love

    • Hi hrmagoo,

      If this is true, I’m very sorry it happened to you. The depravity of man will never cease to amaze me.

      And sure, you could say, “God saved me from this!” Or you could ask, “But wait… what the hell kind of God stands by and watches this happen?” Not a very nice one. How can God be “loving” and “all powerful,” yet powerless to help a child? Or to prevent these things from happening in the first place?

      I hope you can, at the very least, help others work through similar experiences. Life is sometimes cruel and unfair, and all we can do is see to it that it doesn’t happen to others. Because if God won’t protect these children, who will?

      500Q

    • Esther says:

      I have been through emotional abuse too, and I can say, God has an answer to this, but for each of us its going to be different because we are created different. The outcome is also going to be different because we react to things in different ways. Don’t ever forget what God has done for you, and don’t let people convince you otherwise.

      • dinoconstant says:

        Thank you for sharing.

        I think the important things we have in common. We need: food, water, Oxygen, shelter, to be loved by someone, to laugh, to cry, to belong to a social group, etc. We exaggerate our differences sometimes because we want to argue, and for some of us this becomes a habit. If you want the biblical view, “Let us make man in our Own image …” Within us then is a configuration like the Holy Trinity, so how and why do some behave against their Holy configuration? Perhaps this is a corruption, an aberration, or maybe there is nothing to stop us, not even God, who, if He exists, appears to be unwilling, indifferent, or incapable of preventing trespasses by human beings on other sentient beings, including the Blue Whale, cruelly hunted by us for centuries!

        Peace to you Esther; be true to yourself.

        Dinos Constantinou

    • I am so sorry for what happened to you. Your father was full of demons as are all religious people. Satan starts attacking the moment we are conceived. He is the most religious of all. That dream and voices were not from God, it is demonic,they will never tell you to turn to the truth, they send visions dreams and voices to keep you away from knowing your Heavenly Father. I used to see them come at me out of the ceiling from the age of 3 Ask Jesus to come and be in your life and heart, He suffered all that you suffered and more during the crucifixion. He will touch you heal you and strengthen you. It may take time, but He will. I guarantee it. He did it for me. Bless you dear one. xxx

    • Holly Kennedy says:

      Oh how my heart breaks for you, hrmagoo. How horrifying for you and such a young age to be so abused physically, emotionally, and in every way. Your father was so evil and cruel and I’m so glad he is dead. You are so strong to be able to write here and well, just to still be alive. Trust is broken for you and I totally get that. You were treated like a fucking piece of trash and you are not a piece of trash. You never were. You are beautiful and I am so sorry that your mother and family left you and that all this happened to you. It must have purely devastated your soul and how frightened and lonely you had to feel when they left you. Gosh it’s just the worst thing that could happen to an innocent little child. You are (were) one of those children I’ve worried about my whole life. There is nothing worse to me than child being hurt and I’ve wondered how any child could go on living after treatment like this. It makes me feel right now like I want to scream and break things and tear up the damned universe for what happened to you. Please know I’m keeping you in my heart always. Your spiritual communications are just awesome. Much love to you.

  8. Jono Major says:

    1 Cor. 1:25 says: “For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.”

    I quote this not as a biblical literalist. I’m saying: as children, for example our often faulty rationalisations make perfect sense in our own heads, while at the same time we are often naive and neglectful of entire domains of thought without knowing our ignorance. Let’s remember – if we are theists – we must ultimately admit we know nothing. All the soul searching and logical arguments in the world won’t get us out of our own heads. If there is a God who loves us, death is not what we think it is. And I know there’s a God who loves us because he lives in my heart.

    • Hello Jono Major,

      It’s certainly not unreasonable to assume that IF the God of the Bible exists, he probably knows more than we do. But likewise, one could argue: “For Zeus’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and Zeus’s weakness is stronger than human strength!” Before we can make this argument, we have to show that God (or Zeus) exists. Once we’ve established that, we can chalk up every case of childhood rape and murder to, “Our loving God has a plan!” and go on our merry way.

      I think we humans CAN know, or at least reason, whether or not some things are true, just as humans eventually reached the conclusion that they should no longer pray to Zeus, because he was likely mythological. Logical contradictions about God, such as the one described above (a loving God who punishes innocence), suggest he is just as imaginary as Zeus.

      The evidence you’ve given that God is real is that you FEEL he “lives in your heart.” But feelings are not proof, because if they were, they would prove the gods and religions of many different people and cultures (see question #47). I’m sure some believers in Zeus also felt quite zealous about him, but nevertheless, he was never really real.

      500Q

      • Jono Major says:

        Hello

        And thanks for your reply:) God’s existence (or otherwise) is surely one of the most enduring and ubiquitous questions. Maybe it is *the* ultimate human question: is our ability to reason, and to process logically the things we take in with our senses, matched or superseded by anyone or anything? Or are we actually alone?

        You use the phrase “the God of the bible,” I’m happy to run with that; but it has some problems up-front. The God of the bible is notoriously fickle and diverse. In Deuteronomy 20:16, 17, we find “But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded.” This sounds suspiciously like genocide and it troubles modern sensibilities to think of God commanding genocide. So, I don’t think you’re on very solid ground saying that the “God of the Bible [is] creative enough, and powerful enough and loving enough to be able to prevent horrible things from happening.” Since, to the Hittites et alia, God actually seemed to command the Israelites to do horrible things to them.

        To think of the bible as some kind of divine history doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s a haphazard collection of writing by people (some very barbarous and evil people, by our standards) as they grappled with questions about things they didn’t understand. It’s useful to me as a Christian believer on that basis alone. It is “sacred,” yes. It is important o my faith, yes. But it is a human document whose apparent unity is largely illusory. It was put together in the way it was for complex reasons, some of them political, some of them dubious. For this reason “The God of the bible” is not a terribly meaningful concept, I don’t think.

        I am a theist because I have an experience of God; or, to put it differently, I have an experience of *something* that seems to be extrinsic to me. You’re right – absolutely right – that it’s a feeling. It feels like this thing I have experienced comes from outside my own brain. I am very willing to accept I may be mistaken. There’s a fairly good chance that I am! ANd so, yes, in the strictest sense my invocation of “knowledge” that God exists because he’s in my heart is a poetic use of the word “knowledge” too. It’s not justified, true belief – which is the sine qua non of actual knowledge with a capital K. But linguistically we do this all the time. I say that I “know” I’m typing this reply on a computer keyboard. But maybe I’m not. Our perception of the physical world may or may not correspond to “reality,” if such a thing has any real meaning anyway.

        Of course I can’t prove that God exists or that he doesn’t, beyond any kind of doubt. I’d challenge anyone to try. But as a theist, I *can* (to use your phrase again) “make assumptions” about God. Because he has revealed himself. Through scripture, yes, but in a very attenuated sense. Through other people, through the tradition of the church, in the sacraments, in the priesthood. In all these things, God reveals himself. Now, I have absolutely zero interest in trying to convince anyone else of his existence. The hereafter is totally invisible and it’s just as likely to be dreamless sleep forever and ever as anything else. Heaven and hell are poetic ways of describing a conception of existence that no longer carries much meaning.

        In short: human suffering just is. Tying myself in logical knots over it is a bit pointless because minds far greater than mine have not illuminated the subject. If you want to characterise that as “God has a plan! and I’m going merrily on my way,” you may. That doesn’t bother me. But it’s a bit of a straw man.

      • dinoconstant says:

        Excellent! Well argued, I suspect that there is no overseer of the universe, but if there is, the evidence suggests that He is indifferent not only to the suffering of sentient beings, including the Blue Whales, but does not appear to care how badly we pollute this Goldilocks planet of His, with all its millions of different organisms.

        Dinos Constantinou

  9. WhyWouldHeDoSuchAThingLikeThat says:

    Well because God is an Evil Scumbag piece of shit.

  10. I speak of what i think, feel and believe you can go ahead and laugh at me all you want you can mock me all you want and you can insult me all you want but you wont break me so here goes nothing i guess. Im both LUCIFER and JEHOVAH those are who i really am my divine mother gave birth to me she fell in love with me and she lost her virginity to me i also gave her my virginity my divine aunts fell in love with me too each of them gave their virginity to me my divine grandmother have incredibly strong feelings of love for me she even saved her virginity just for me but i havent accepted her love yet i believe but i think i will accept her love after i return to heaven and i think i have a divine big sister who developed very strong feelings of love for little old me but i refused to have sex with i refused to sleep with her and i refused to take baths or showers with my divine big sister i said no to her all the time she is persistant but i hope one day she will be able to give up on me or at least only love one of my cloned selves instead if i create a clone for my divine big sister if i felt there was no other way and what would you say if i could have cloned myself if i could done self-duplication would you find it amazing or not ?. As for myself i was born before the universe was created i do not have a father im the very first man to ever exist before me there was only women before i existed no-one knew anything about love and sex and after the universe was created i conceived many healthy children specially with my divine mother and i conceived many healthy children with all my divine aunts too i think i have around 20 sons and daughters with my divine mother and i have like 18 sons and daughters with my divine aunts i speak of what i believe is the truth i know most of what i say is the truth at least no matter what youre told but you brainwashed mortals can live in denial all you want. About the children to suffer what would you have said if i did it as a part of a huge test for many to see how much anyone is willing to do to help those in need instead of using excuses and blaming others i admit im not the best creator i was arrogant in the past i could have tried to help those in poverty when i return to heaven for real this time once im back in heaven i can help to make the world better or i cant least promise that the children that die will be able to go to heaven that is if they could have remained innocent not thinking of hurting anyone not thinking of stealing and not thinking of raping anyone either not in the future either if you adult humans wants to go to heaven you better promise to not try to lay a finger on my divine mother specially her if you tried to rape her and made my divine mother cry in sadness i would felt tempted to cast you to hell for it im serious you can call me cruel all you want i may be a cruel god i may be a vengeful and wrathful god at times and i may be a stubborn and jealous god at times too but i can be a kind god at times as long as theres no raping in heaven as long theres no man who tries to forcefully molest any girl or woman in heaven then i will be in a good mood and i will be in a really good mood if no one in heaven says incest is evil, wrong and sinful. Thats all i had to say farewell you foolish, blind, naive and misguided mortals.

  11. Santa Cause says:

    In reading over your question of why, regarding little children suffering, I was disturbed to focus on the fact that little children suffer. I suppose I’ve not looked too deeply into that whole realm just because it is a very unpleasant area and there’s nothing I could do to change it. Reading about the details is depressing. One of my jobs was typesetting obituaries and I’ve had to hide my eyes from my co-workers on more than one occasion. I sometimes can look like a biker, (perhaps in my own mind, and minus the Harley and the tatts) and misty eyes just do not cut it with that picture.
    However… you’re not really asking a question, you are giving answers. You don’t know, truth is, WHAT God’s take is, or actions were, on all this slime, but you’ve allowed it to convince yourself that it isn’t healthy and God is immoral or that it is proof there is no God.
    Same old, same old in Genesis 3, where Adam is presented with what he believes is the real truth about God, and bites deep into that deception.
    And so have you.
    You can fancy it up with real-life drama and add a nice touch of lucid and intelligent dialogue, but if you strip away the subtle garnish its just a re-hash of what went on at the dawn of time.
    I’ve been at the same point you were but after some serious contemplation I made a different turn at that ‘Y’ in the road, the junction where you took the wrong road. I probably backed up a little to take the road I’m on now because I did travel down it a ways.
    I had reason to believe, at one time, and well after I was baptized in the Holy Spirit complete with ‘light show’ and all (way better than a flipped penny I’ll tell you, but sadly, imminently forgettable – i.e., read how the signs God rendered to the Children of Israel resulted in a triumphant exit, pursuing soldiers drowned, wrote a song, whooped it up and 3 days later wanted back to Egypt because God, in their wisdom, had abandoned them – same for me) but I felt that God hadn’t quite demonstrated to me that he really cared, judging by my own personal circumstances.
    But the Holy Spirit repeatedly brought scripture to mind that spoke of his enduring mercy and his love and I gradually ‘woke up’ to that. The two did not jibe and I made a decision then and there that I would go with what the Word told me about God and not my circumstances. And I stuck to that several times after that point. I probably will have to do that again too, and I will because I know I’m on the right road; there have been far too many road ‘signs’ along the way that have confirmed that to me.
    Without hearing God’s rebuttal, and without being able to see behind the scenes into the spirit realm as described in Job, and based on what you’ve seen, you have concluded what you have concluded, allowing it to erode your faith completely, from what I’ve read in some of your dialogue.
    You say you are waiting, in the ‘flipped penny’ piece, for God to prove something to you, but I think you’re too far down the wrong road to come back, even for God.
    That is as sad and disturbing to me as what you have described in this piece about suffering children.

    • Stella says:

      Whatever you have said does not hold any water because you do not any real truth about it. You just got it that way and have accepted it that way. First of all they say jesus raised lazarous from the dead. Where is Lazarous now. If jesus knew he had the powers to raise the dead, why did he weep when he heard Lazarous was dead?

      • Santa Cause says:

        Stella: “Whatever you have said does not hold any water because you do not any real truth about it. You just got it that way and have accepted it that way.”

        Sorry, I’m going to have to guess at what you are saying here, and I’m guessing you are correcting me, and, Stella. I was there, you weren’t, when I was in turmoil and God answered me. How can you even presume to know what happened? You sound like you consider me to be a puppet who can only understand what you explain and interpret to me. Seriously.

        Stella: “If jesus knew he had the powers to raise the dead, why did he weep when he heard Lazarous was dead?”

        It would be my guess that he was deeply moved by the grief he saw, and perhaps he was reminded of the horrendous grief yet to come. If you really want to know the answer though, ask Jesus. He’s still alive, just as the bible says, even though you can’t see him.

        • Stella says:

          This is all ‘a cooked story” and none sense. There is totally no god and jesus lived a normal life and died just like any of us. All the secrets have been revealed. So dont cheat and deceive yourself. There is no eternity. We shall meet in the grave then that is when you will know that all what you believed was a waste of time.

          • Dino says:

            “Santa Cause” ha! Good one…..

            A waste of time; who’s time? Exactly! Why come on here and waste your time with YOUR nonsense? You said it a “waste of time”. Everyone has a right to believe in what ever they want to believe in. If WE want to “waste our time” believing in our GOD, what do you care? After all He doesn’t exist to you, so YOU are in fact wasting your time. We believe in GOD! So to us, it is not a waste of time. Now you watching porn a good part of the day, that could qualify as a waste of time, in fact it is a waste of time! The thing is, I could easily tell anyone, anything they do is a waste of time; take for example what I just told you? I just mentioned you watch porn…. Probably pinched a nerve, yes-no-maybeso. In any event you will likely reply to me and “waste your time” when in fact your time was over as soon as you read this.

            I will pray to God that you will figure life out before you make it to the grave as you say. As you see, I am believer and as you continue a life as you see it, we will not meet in the grave, we will not meet at all. It’s sad to see how non believers live, it really is. I genuinely; from the bottom of my heart care for non believers, which is why I come on this forum to get them to question their lives and seek a hire power. We did not come from nothing – it takes something to make something. Just as real as science is on earth so is God’s science. God has His science, which we cannot understand while here on earth. He did create us! I do believe the Bible is a true written account of mans creation, just as American history is and continues to be written. And the confirmation of God’s existence is personal to me. Supernatural occurrences in my life happened that made me a believer. How did they happen you might wonder? Prayer, I believe enough people prayed for me and that is what I will do for you. And really if YOU don’t believe,,,, again your wasting your time. Just continue watching porn and do what ever else it is you do, cause it could be that now, I really am wasting my time.

          • Santa Cause says:

            Stella, why would you WANT to be right about your conviction that there is no God?

    • Esther says:

      Don’t let those people shake your faith in God. They were the tares among the wheat right from the beginning. If you look carefully at their arguments and reasoning, its full of psychological projection (they project their own hypocrisy, indifference to mankind, malevolence onto God), logical contradictions and cognitive dissonance. Most of those atheists or Christians turned atheists I’ve argued with use the same arguments over and over, and their mindsets are similar. The poison of the serpent has long seeped into their minds, and they allowed it.

  12. Stella says:

    Whatever the bible talks about is man made nonesense. There is totally no god in the world. If god really existed and loved us why is there a lot of suffering in the world? If he is a patient and enduring god why did he give Adam and Eve that heavy punishment for the mistake they made. Would he not have forgiven them for the first time just the way we forgive our children when they error. Nonesense about god

    • Anonymous says:

      Stella, At last I found my mate!!! In same thinking, Thanks EVE.

      There is no God. Yes, You are right, A man made motor runs not more than 10 years max. Something not made by made, but made by itself or BIG BANG works for your life time! I mean your Heart.
      Next, Your lungs have been thought to absorb only oxygen and push out Carbon-di- oxide? By whom? When every cell in your body is replaced on an average by 7 years? Then what is your age?

      WHO EVER BELIEVES THAT THERE IS NO GOD, forget the Bible, as it is for only few dumb heads like me who believes in GOD for everything. Challenge me!

      Your nose/Ear/Tongue/ski…, knows to distinguish between different… YOU THOUGHT THIS TO THEM or MY FATHER! THERE is NO GOD only MY CREATOR. sorry OUR CREATOR.

      .

    • Esther says:

      Because God created us to be responsible for our own actions, and that gives us power to cause suffering to ourselves and others. How else can we be independent, responsible adults when we cannot make decisions for ourselves and live with the consequences of what we do? Come on, this is basic common sense. It applies to you and your future generations. Apply this to the case of Adam and Eve and then you know why God gives them choices and consequences.

      And who told you forgiveness removes consequences? If you played with fire as a child and got yourself burned with a scar on your hand, does your parents’ forgiveness remove that scar? No it doesn’t. So don’t expect God’s forgiveness to miraculously solve all the left-over issues of your wrong decisions. God’s forgiveness only means you are given eternal life after this temporal life, but the consequences of your current choices stay with you until you die TO HELP YOU LEARN. It is necessary because without those consequences, you will just do the same wrong things over and over. Wake up to your illogical reasoning that God cannot exist in a world with suffering.

    • Jay says:

      If God does exist he must be insane.

  13. nsmit says:

    PLEASE can someone answer the question properly and in just two sentences and NO verses from the bible. Explain to me, like you would explain to a child. Why does God allow innocent children to be raped, tortured and murdered? Until i get a SHORT readable explanation for this i shall remain an atheist..

    • There is no God. Remain an atheist.:-)

    • consultgtf says:

      Child’s parents or Grand parents are the reason for ALL CHILDREN suffering.

    • Santa Cause says:

      You’re biting into the ‘same apple’ as Eve. Read the encounter in the Old Testament about Eve talking with the serpent; from what she could see with her own eyes, the serpent makes accusations against God and she believes them without question. The Word of God to her via a man, Adam, was dismissed probably because of a presumed error in translation, and, he was a man, she was a woman, a more advanced iteration of the human species and knew more. Change it up and go talk to God about what you see around you and the accusations against God that you are believing so easily. Or not. Your call.

      • Amalthea says:

        : I don’t know if a ‘god’ exists or not. One has not manifested herself in my presence.

        • Jim Alexander says:

          Amalthea: I don’t know if a ‘god’ exists or not. One has not manifested herself in my presence.

          If you’re not seeking, you won’t be finding: Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

          • With all due respect, the Mormons use the same line when they knock on your door and say, “Just pray about it! And God will reveal to you that the Book of Mormon is true!” If you want to believe something bad enough, you can convince yourself that God is telling you it’s true.

            500Q

            • Jim Alexander says:

              Amalthea: “If you want to believe something bad enough, you can convince yourself that God is telling you it’s true.”

              That certainly seems so. Also, same rule applies for wanting to believe there is no God at all.

              I’ve never talked to any Mormon about their faith. I would make the time but the one and only time they attempted to call on me I had other plans. Whether they are arguing from their Book of Mormon, or someone is arguing from their worldview, if it contradicts what I have proven to myself to be true, I won’t accept it as truth.

              The process I went through to arrive at the conclusion that the bible is Truth was not one where I desperately wanted it to be true. That will only hold for so long and then it will unravel. Case in point: 500Q.

              • I didn’t WANT to believe Christianity was true, I BELIEVED it with all my heart and soul for over 30 years. But it was actually through studying other religions, like Mormonism, that I saw many of the same arguments I was using to defend Christianity being used by other religions.

                And that’s the problem with many Christian claims, like the one above (that heartfelt searching leads one to truth). Because these claims cannot be falsified, they can be used to defend ANY faith. I could just as easily claim the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the creator of all life (prove he’s not) and that he wants you to have faith in him (prove he doesn’t). The only difference is that your story has been around a lot longer, and people have spent millions of collective hours writing about it, creating new stories, and working up ways to defend them.

                Now, if you want to go through life believing that things like talking snakes, huge arks, and global floods are sound science, then that’s your call. But please do not accuse me and others of simply “wanting” to NOT believe, as if rebellion is our only reason for rejecting such nonsense. You have no idea who I am, or what I’ve been through, and you are being an elitist asshat to assume that only YOU have discovered the REAL truth, and therefore all others MUST be wrong.

                500Q

                • Santa Cause says:

                  You may be right about me being an elitist ‘asshat’, but one thing I’m sure of, I sought (with everything in me) and I found. I don’t care if ‘seek and ye shall find’ can’t be disproved. All I know is that before I sought, I had not found. Just because other religions proclaim similar things in order to induct new followers does not change my experience, nor my resulting faith, in the slightest.

                  Science and faith will always be at odds and I have no interest in proving my beliefs to anyone along scientific lines. I have found very good reason, however, to believe the bible and I have staked my life on it. I love science, and it has uses in our world, but it will never assist a person in their search for God since it has to hypothesize first of all that God exists before it can go looking for him. Nor would I ever stake my spiritual life on science. I’ve staked my physical life on it, but only because there were no other options. So what if my faith in eternal life in a wonderful place has to come with talking snakes and gigantic arcs made of gopher wood? It’s all good in the grand scheme of things.

    • Pan says:

      All human have choice, what we do with that choice is entirely up to us. If God took away evil doers choice, He would have to take away all choice. Choice is our punishment for not trusting in God in the fist place. Blame humanity not God we bought this on our children.

      • sklyjd says:

        So what, let God take away evil doers choice, if it is going to save lives of children why not? And why does he have to take away choice from normal people, isn’t God supposed to be all powerful and be capable of doing a miracle like that?

        This blame game regarding guilt passed on to all humans because of a Bible story is a complete crock. This was designed solely to fool and manipulate the primitive uneducated masses into becoming repenting worshipers making them easier to control.

        • Anonymous says:

          You have just answered your own question “So what, let God take away evil doers choice..” “And why does he have to take away choice from normal people…” It’s staring you in the face, humanity will never be selfless enough to give up their choice to save others, do you think that if someone gave all humans a choice of living in peace with everyone for ever more, where no harm would be done to anyone that they would take it, if it entailed taking away their choice? Even in today’s life people look down their noses at God, because they think that God wants to control them, yet they do not look at all the wrong they do. The Bible is a guideline to living a moral life, a life that reflects the good and not the bad. “Do onto others as you would have done onto you”. I do not fear hell because I have no reason to fear hell, I know that I am living a life that reflects my God’s love. Someone who truly beliefs in God would never inflict pain and suffering on others, if there are people who say that they are believers and do not live their life accordingly then they do not truly believe in God. That being said I would rather believe in a God who wants you to live a moral life than one that lets you do what you want without any punishment. Humanity has proven time and again just how horribly hateful it can be. We are left with our choices and time and time again we make wrong choices, choices that inflicted pain and suffering, humanity will never be selfless. Let me put it to you like this. Have you ever done anything to stop the pain and suffering of children? Have you joined an organisation who invests time in helping such children? Or are we all here just typing away on the internet and discussing problems that we ourselves are not willing to fix because instead of getting out there and helping and doing something, we are all just complaining? We have the power to create a better world and here we are doing nothing. Yet we want to lay the blame at God’s feet because we forget that change starts with YOU YOURSELF. My God has given me the power to make the world a better place by giving me the compassion to help others. I will not sit idly by while there are people who harm children, I will do everything in my power to help those children that are in need. In the bible it also tells us not to force people to believe in God but to life a life that reflects God so other people will see that and come to faith. I did not live an easy, carefree life, I have been in some horrible situations but every time I have called out to God, He has come to my aid. Other peoples bad choices have put me in harms way but God has pulled me out ever single time. If me helping where I can puts me under the control of God then so be it, at least I know that I am making a deference. I do not fear my God because I have no reason to fear Him. We can all do more to help, even if you do not want to believe in God there is still noting stopping you from helping. I will not force my God on you but I will ask you to help because more helping hands can change the world into a better place.

          • sklyjd says:

            You say “humanity will never be selfless enough to give up their choice to save others,” and “Humanity has proven time and again just how horribly hateful it can be.”

            Do you not see or understand the facts of life? You have written about how Humanity is so wrong, bad and sinful and I agree you are not at all wrong, but you have forgotten the overwhelming fact that we are human animals and we are part of the animal kingdom whether you like it or not.

            Animals are constantly in the natural state of survival and all will kill their own kind or any other if required for their own survival. Because we have the biggest brains in the animal kingdom we appear to have more complicated issues and emotions than the rest of the animal species, therefore, we are the ultimate survivors and killers that will never live in peace together in your lords’ ideal world. It is an absolute impossibility and it would be intrinsically unnatural.

            Look at history, man has naturally been at war or killing people from the days of our early ancestors well before Christianity was invented, tribes and groups of primitive hunters would either be bonded in friendship or at war with each other. This is the way it was from day one and will always be this way as long as the human species exists I am sorry to say.

            I to have been in horrible situations and suffered greatly from other people’s choices and I have also done my part with assisting the less fortunate, you are not alone. If God helps you through your life with these issues I am very happy for you but one thing I do state with conviction that it is not fair to indoctrinate children with any ideology.

            • Anonymous says:

              While I respect that you have your own beliefs, I do not share them, the human mind is so much more than just an animal instinct to survive, while humans are capable of great evil, we are also cabal of change and great good. Have animals evolved to the point where they can speak? Have animals invented technological things to better their lives? When I say animals, I mean, bears, lions, pandas and so on an so forth… We are so much more than animals, it seems though that we lack the ability to learn from the past, you have said it yourself. “Look at history, man has naturally been at war or killing people from the days of our early ancestors” We have not naturally been at war, greed has driven humanity to war. Wanting more than what is necessary to survive.Animals are not consumed by greed. You say that it is not good to indoctrinate children with this ideology, yet I was never forced to believe what I believe today, I have been introduced to many different religions and I have even been given the option to be an Atheist, never once was I forced to believe what I believe today. My faith has been given to me through personal experience and I will love God till my last breath. I find it absolutely wonderful that there are people who do not just talk about issues but are actually making a change in the world. Ultimately we need more people doing this, even if you do not share my faith I am very happy to know that you are helping. Even if we can’t stand together in faith, we as humans can stand together in peace if we are willing to change and learn from the past. Yet greed consumes us and so we continue on the path of destruction. As I have said before, I will not force my believes on any one, but I will live a life that reflects my faith.

              • sklyjd says:

                Anonymous. Animals have evolved to exist in their environment and to be able to communicate with those it needs to. Animals have also developed traits that are good and bad within their own groups and communities and their cognitive abilities and languages scientists have found are more developed than it appears possible.

                Man is the most advanced animal and this obviously makes us greedier and demanding in what we want and will naturally take it though violence if need be. Animals do also get consumed by greed and violence, however it is to do more with claiming hunting territories and food supply that is driven by basic survival instincts.

                We have not needed our cave man survival instincts for many thousands of years so we have evolved further into a different more complex modern animal from those days. We still are basically the same as any other animal but with such a complex brain and this is why humans have always complicated what could be simple lives with emotional states of mind such as love, hate, jealousy, materialistic greed and of course superstitious belief among many others.

                You do not have to be forced to believe anything, you rationalise and justify your decision due to many factors that may involve childhood memories, emotional memories, fear and loneliness, people who you meet, mentors and various events you have experienced and you may not have remembered or been aware of these factors when you made your decision and this brings into question our free will, but that is another story.

                You are correct that we need people who will make a difference to the world in a positive way, however there will always be those who tear it all down to justify their ideologies and needs and as I have explained this is a natural human animal trait regardless of how much we can learn from the past. What all humans do whether it is good or bad or indifferent it is considered normal as far as the animal kingdom is concerned, and if your God did create humans to be good he blundered because he certainly forgot to remove our natural animal behavioural instincts.

        • Anonymous says:

          “Why would God go through so much trouble if, everything comes to nothing?”

        • Pan says:

          It seems to me that most people want to believe that God wants to control them. People take what other people do and then they blame it on God or religion. Someone who truly believes in God will be as selfless as possible. Someone who believes in God does not inflict pain on others. Someone who believes in God helps others no matter the cost to them. If people say they believe in God and do not live a life that reflects it, then they do not believe in God. It is as simple as that. God wants us to be good not evil.

          God did not want us to eat from “the forbidden fruit” because He knew what we did not. He knew that if we had the knowledge that He had, the world would turn into what it is now. He tried to protect us against this. He did not want us to be robots that just did what He commanded and there for gave us choice. He told us before hand what would happen if we did what we should not. We chose to ignore His warning and did what we wanted to do.

          If you know something is wrong and you still do it, it is you who does the wrong not the religion that you believe in, unless you believe in a religion that condones evil.

          Even if you do not believe in God, I cannot say that you will go to Hell, because I am not allowed to judge you. Only God can judge you and He might find that you are worthy of Heaven, only God knows.

          Science has not been able to disprove the existence of God, have a gander at the link below.
          http://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/

          “Biological evolution has not brought us the slightest understanding of how the first living organisms emerged from inanimate matter on this planet and how the advanced eukaryotic cells—the highly structured building blocks of advanced life forms—ever emerged from simpler organisms. Neither does it explain one of the greatest mysteries of science: how did consciousness arise in living things? Where do symbolic thinking and self-awareness come from? What is it that allows humans to understand the mysteries of biology, physics, mathematics, engineering and medicine? And what enables us to create great works of art, music, architecture and literature? Science is nowhere near to explaining these deep mysteries.

          But much more important than these conundrums is the persistent question of the fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe: Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life?”

          • sklyjd says:

            The reasons you provide to truly believe in God are quite extreme for today’s modern standards. In fact, to go further with this extremity would be to live with only enough food and clothing to survive with a simple shelter and comforts forgoing your valuable possessions to assist the poor and disadvantaged.

            Of course you can go much further in reflecting Gods life with your own and follow the Bible to the letter. Of course this is basically impossible as in modern times as we have outlawed much of those primitive attitudes and aggressive behaviours in civilised countries.

            As you will understand the passage of time and increased knowledge has changed a lot of people’s perceptions about gods and religion and it does not stop there. Science has also moved forwards in leaps during the last 200 years removing a lot of the beliefs associated with religion such as the age of the Earth, the shape of the Earth, the rotation and trajectory of Earth and a good idea of the size of our universe, not to mention the way the weather works and the biological evolution of man. Most of these have now been reluctantly taken into mainstream religious doctrine.

            We also now understand many human related things associated with health that were previously associated with the devil by religious doctrine and in fact still takes place in some African countries. It is only logical to believe in another 200 years of modern science many more mysteries will be uncovered of the world we live in, therefore it is somewhat extremely critical of Amir d. Aczel, a mathematician and science journalist to overstate the lack of understanding the beginnings of life and these sciences in general when it is obvious modern science in comparison to religious ideologies is very young indeed.

            The statement: “Science has not been able to disprove the existence of God” is a redundant statement. Not that the onus of proof should be on science anyway, but as I have detailed above how science has chipped away at religious theology through the normal and natural role science plays in life. Science has not purposely set out to destroy religions as so often claimed because science does not need to do this. Science relies on real evidence discovered within the natural world and not on superstitions, astrology or mythological stories.

            You ask “Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life?”

            The law of averages, luck or the thanks go to an alien microorganism. Any of these are suitable answers considering the massive universe and time scales we are working with.

            • Pan says:

              My reasoning is not quite extreme at all, if you believe what I believe it’s an all or nothing belief. There are no half measures. Even in the modern world God will make provision, that does not mean you can sit back and do nothing, it means opportunities will be presented to you so that you can help who you need to help.

              “The law of averages, luck or the thanks go to an alien microorganism.”
              Bingo! So in other words, we have not yet come to understand what is out there and what is possible. We cannot yet pin point what brought us here and why. An alien microorganism can be anything that we do not yet have knowledge of, meaning this could in fact be God…

              We do not know what God is or what exactly He is capable of, we refer to Him as a person yet He is not that at all. We cannot define what God is.

              I believe science and religion go hand in hand we just have not discovered what we are meant to discover as of yet. After all God tells us to …

              Matthew 7:7
              “7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds;…”

              God has never said that we are not allowed to ask question, I think he wants us to, so that we can better the world, then again it’s up to us to use our knowledge for good or evil.

              We have so many brilliant people in the world, surely if they all came together and decided to better the world, they would be able to invent unimaginable things to better the world.

              Once again greed will over power the need to help, diseases will not be cured because healthy people do not pay to be cured, instead of creating new means of energy we ruin the current resources because we do not want a future for our children or their children, we live only for today and take the planet down with us. We are not happy with what we have, we want more all the time. Advertising “indoctrinates” us into wanting more, more sex, more money, more food, more clothes, more cars, more houses and so on and so forth. All things that we don’t need but want. Keeping up with the Kardashians…

              We are doomed to be selfish and greedy unless we are taught morals, respect, love and that there are consequences to our actions. If we are not taught wrong from right we are doomed to indulge ourselves to whatever we want. We should want to be good instead of evil, to life lives that protect yourself and others.

              Excuse my English it’s not my first language, so my grammar and paraphrasing is not all that great.

              I’m from an African country, more precisely South Africa, and in some ways I think that western civilisation has made the world a pretty nasty place… While a few where killed or outcast because they where believed to be associated with the devil, millions now die because of science. Biological warfare, new weaponry that could wipe out entire cities, countries even. Both religion and science have good and bad points.

              Religion and science also have one thing in common which is this. If either of these things are used for the wrong reasons, destruction will follow…

  14. Dino says:

    Bad parents are to blame! Teach no evil do no evil. Don’t teach at all, those are the people killing children. Man alone evolved, and continues to evolve into a cancerous stigmata that affects everything around it. It’s in your food, your clothes, and places you visit. The Bible teaches the difference between good and evil. Freewill survives you on earth, but it will not save you in heaven. A good heart will live for all eternity and that’s the lesson to be learned on Earth. I believe in God! I don’t believe in man… The Bible is man created you might say? Simjklop was created by man millions of years ago; why is it not around anymore? The Bible has proven the test of time and the words in it change people’s hearts; that in itself is a miracle!

    • kats says:

      So you believe in evolution after all?
      What the heck is simjklop? Not showing up on Google.
      Bad parenting causes tsunamis, wildfires, earthquakes, famine, drought, and pajama jeans? Wow.
      Lots of words can change people’s hearts. This is not exclusive to the bible.

      • Dino says:

        Sorry, yes very exclusive and not what you want to hear, I know! And the fact that you googled that word is exactly my point. You seem to be seeking answers; ironically from man. Knowing God or the creation of man is something not found, but something that is felt and unfortunately many are emotionally inept from feeling the very thing that created them. And of coarse I believe in evolution, just not in the same way a non-believer does. Everything evolves, yes even God. The word means to change; transform- to come into being; develop. God knows what He’s doing, we don’t; we cannot even follow our own hearts, that is why people should focus on transforming “evolving” their hearts into something not of this earth, because we in fact do follow our hearts. I’m telling you God does exist! We were created based on God’s science of evolution. I pray nothing but the best for you and hope you find what your looking for. I Hope your pal Google points you in the right direction.

      • consultgtf says:

        This is INCLUSIVE and, THAT is BIBLE! read faithfully.

        Yes, Evolution from Human to ANIMAL…in all ways, as GOD created Humans, but we evolved, and…to become, worst than animal in all ways…

        Human’s were made to toil for his food…Why?
        Man knows, to feel jealous…How?
        He searching something…What?
        He will find that…When?

        This is Human journey from from past 6000 years, after he was chased out of God’s protection.

        Agreed, Or still evolving?

  15. Seriously says:

    God is a low life piece of shit Scumbag for punishing us innocent people, especially for all the misery and murders that are going on in this world which he should stop this once and for all.

    • Esther says:

      And what are you?

      • GoFigure says:

        And many of us are innocent by the way. Why should Good people like us suffer on this Rotten no good earth anyway? What we do Wrong?

        • Santa Cause says:

          Why should ‘good people like us suffer on this rotten, no-good earth’, GoFigure?

          Good question.

          I think the answer may lie in the third chapter of Genesis where Eve believes a lie about God. If you believe a lie about God, there are consequences. There are plenty of lies right in these comments and so, many opportunities to repeat Eve’s calamity. But don’t blame her and her husband if you fall into the same trap. It’s your free-will choice to do so.

          Oh, and God’s own son was not immune from suffering, neither were God’s servants most of whom were killed in a tortuous death.

          The thing to keep in perspective is that mortal life is very short, and the pain and suffering even shorter, especially when that short amount of time is compared to eternity.

          • kats says:

            Kinda hard to keep mortal suffering in perspective when you’re the one suffering or you’re watching someone else suffer, especially if it’s a kid or baby.
            Adam and Eve again? *sigh* Just when do you think these folks existed? 6000 to 10,000 years ago, like the YECs believe? If not, then how far back did they exist?
            Aside from that, the whole concept of original sin makes no sense whatsoever. It posits the idea that we’re all wicked even before we’re born, that we deserve to die and go to hell unless we beg forgiveness for….what? For being born as flawed humans who had no choice in the matter.
            The A&E story certainly has provided plenty of opportunity for people to treat women like dirt and blame them for “the fall.”

            • Santa Cause says:

              “Adam and Eve again. Sigh.”

              Yes, kats, again, and, sigh, you’re repeating the same mistake Eve did. Can’t blame her now for your own mistake.

              Nope, the earth is not 6 to 10K years old, and if you read it you’ll see the bible doesn’t say how old the earth is and its not an exam question that you have to get right to enter heaven, so, I don’t really care how old or young it is. It doesn’t matter. Red herring. Some Christians will die on it thinking they have to believe its 6 – 10K years old or all the work that Jesus did on the cross doesn’t count. Whatever…

            • Holly Kennedy says:

              Wow I really like what you wrote, Kats.

              “It posits the idea that we’re all wicked even before we’re born, that we deserve to die and go to hell unless we beg forgiveness for….what?”

              Yeah, I have the same question? So a baby has to beg for forgiveness too I assume. Again the master/slave thing. It’s clear that story was written to control the masses.

  16. Anonymous says:

    God is real. Suffering does not change the fact that God is real.
    We see the design of a Creator in nature. Nature is too complex to come out of nothing.
    To deny the existence of God just because one cannot explain the purpose of suffering is not sound logic.
    There is a realm that we cannot see but we know it is there. There are spiritual manifestations that cannot be explained if we deny the existence of a Creator.

    • Suffering does not prove or disprove God, but it does raise some good questions about why a good God would allow innocent children to be tortured.

      And there’s no question that we see design in nature, but is it the design of an intelligent creator, or undirected design that has come about through trial and error? Complexity in nature appears to be limited to living things, why has this same creator not chosen to design complex objects that are not alive?

      “Nature is too complex to come out of nothing.”

      It’s “special pleading” to insist that complexity requires a designer, and then turn around and insist that a complex God (who is surely more complex than his creation) does NOT require a designer.

      “To deny the existence of God just because one cannot explain the purpose of suffering is not sound logic.”

      Likewise, to claim an all-powerful, invisible, eternal being exists just because one cannot understand the complexity seen in nature is also not sound logic. (And I would argue that it CAN be naturally explained.)

      “There is a realm that we cannot see but we know it is there.”

      What realm? How do we know it’s there? There is an endless number of realms and spiritual deities we could dream up if we are not required to offer any proof.

      “There are spiritual manifestations that cannot be explained if we deny the existence of a Creator.”

      The Amazing Randy is still offering 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove any psychic or spiritual manifestation. I would argue that most of these are tricks or self-delusion. Most of these, if they were real, they would be easy to confirm with a few simple tests.

      Thanks for posting!
      500Q

  17. Rachel marie says:

    Hi I’ve been looking for the bible verse god allows suffering , but does not create it. I’ve looked every where I can’t find it again I found it once but never marked the page and I saw u used part of it can u help me out if possible at all I’m going crazy 😲 trying to find it thanks

    • Anonymous says:

      Thank you for bringing THE MOST IMPORTANT topic in this illusion world in the right way…
      hopefully

      “God allows suffering , but does not create it,” Great!

      What was your perspective when you wrote this line?
      Was it that, He is just a spectator.
      Enjoying our suffering, Watching us cry in pain?

      Or was it a plain statement, He allows us to suffer, irrespective of its consequence?

      Or in simple, English, HE IS A SADIST! and you want proof for this?!

        • Dino says:

          Lol…… I like how this article ended. “treat others with kindness and make the most of the one life we are fortunate to have.”

          Like everyone has that figured out! The Bible teaches people the very thing this writer wishes for everyone on earth. The reality is; this article and the words written in it do not have the “IT” factor. The Bible and the words in it, for what ever reason has an unexplainable ability to hypnotize people into doing the very thing this article wishes. This article, very humorous, ends like it discovered the holy grail; like a “secret revealed”,,,,, what a joke of an article, such a week ending. Thank the “God”, the God some people don’t believe in; for Pastors.

          Pastors/Church leaders, help people understand and help the world by promoting to, “treat others with kindness.”…. This article sucked in the sense that, people will not decide to, “treat others with kindness” after reading it. A pretty sad article. It promotes a person who thinks they figured out life. And tells people, God is not real and that your silly in “believing”. My prayers go out to those who believe we evolved from nothing, but hink about it, take nothing and try to make something; zero + zero equals zero. Even if we are descendents of monkeys, it still would have required a 1+1. If you are convinced that we evolved from nothing, great, it means we both believe in magic and the only thing capable of magic is God. We have a creator; someone birthed everything on earth. If you don’t know how to be kind to people and you have no desire or passion for anything; Please try going to church, but go with an open mind. You just might be inspired to treat someone with kindness!

          • kats says:

            The idea that “something had to come from something else–not nothing” is highly debatable and not all that provable. Google it some time.
            And we are not “descendants” of monkeys. This is not what evolution means. We primates sprang from a common ancestor and branched off into humans, apes, monkeys, etc.
            And do you really think people can’t be kind, or learn how to be kind, without going to church? That’s rather presumptuous. You probably think atheists and agnostics don’t have a moral code to follow because they don’t share your faith.
            As for pastors…..Okay, some of them are kindly. Many others, though, preach hatred, bigotry, violence, subjugation of women, abuse of kids, and more. There are pastors telling their congregations that the folks in Paris who were killed in the concert hall deserved it for listening to “Devil” music; a pastor in Harlem insisting that gay people put semen in Starbucks coffee; another insisting that women are responsible for our downfall and have to be kept out of leadership positions; and pastors refusing to stand up against domestic violence because women are supposed to be obedient and submissive.
            And there are many, many more. I didn’t learn about kindness from the Baptist ministers I grew up listening to. All I heard was You’re evil and wicked and a sinner and you deserve to go to hell and don’t you dare ask questions or have doubts, because if you do, that is the devil working on you.

            • Dino says:

              The devil works in all of us. The key is to have Christ work him out of us and as a former athiest all I can say is; athiests are the most vulnerable and the type of people most susceptible to the devils enchantment. I spent a good portion of my adult life living in sins. I’ve made choices that were not kind. I had know understanding of what true kindness meant. In fact as an athiest then, I would have never thought to reach out to a forum to argue about something that did not exist to me.

              I’m sorry, but I believe it’s true; we are not capable of being kind all by ourselves, you have to realize that all the kindness you see in this world is rooted to some kind of spiritual belief and the whole monkey business, you missed my point entirely. Let me ask this, just as you suggested to me; Google how America was truly founded, remember “in God we trust”, “I pledge alligance”. I am sorry what I wrote upset you and/or offended you. I truly believe that God is the answer to all our problems, and yes I believe the Church plays a huge role and what ever the Church did to you; I am sorry and my heart goes out to you. It makes me sad. You are obviously unable to forgive at this time in your life. I will pray for you and ask that you forgive me for my offensive forum script. I believe the Holy Spirit guided me to this forum to understand non-believers and to meet people who hate God, which to me again, actually makes zero sense. How could you hate something you believe does not exist? Why not just read a book about kindness as suggested and treat all people with kindness. The reality is, it’s just not possible. People are born and if they are not brought up by kind people they will not know how to act upon the defintion of the word. The Bible is the only book capable of changing people, and so many simply do not understand it, which is why there is a need for Church. My mother a kind woman one day and the next day the most vicious woman on the planet. Could she have used Church to help her raise kind children? Yes!

              I want you to know that I appreciate your reply. I am learning so much from this form and again I thank you for your honest words. Have a wonderfull Chistmas ma’am and God Bless you:).

              P.S. seriously, I am overjoyed for your comments. Thank you! I am not perfect and I feel convicted to do something kind for someone tomorrow and what ever it is I decide to do for someone, know that you played a role. God speed my dear person.

                • Anonymous says:

                  Kats, Hope you understood the reason,
                  “Sex, reports WYMT. The director of the Christian homeless shelter, Billy Woodward said that people are having sex at the shelter, and that behavior can’t be tolerated”.

                  People need kindness and shelter, once the basic is achieved, they want PLEASURE! same with ALL HUMAN’s!

                  Why Shouldn’t THEY be punished, THE SINNERS, I mean?

                  • kats says:

                    You’re being sarcastic, I hope.

                    • consultgtfc says:

                      No, I am telling only the truth and fact.
                      In India, we have proverb, “Those who eat salt, have to drink water”. There is no sarcasm in this. YOU are eating salt, after knowing “IT IS SALT”, the why crib to drink water?

                      If, we are here to satisfy our senses, then be ready to get all the associated freebies, don’t say NO, neither you can I suppose.

                      There are some people who try to associate themselves with all the things happening in this world, but do nothing to change it.(not just shelling out some money, though)

                • Dino says:

                  Really? Lol…. Ok, so you judge the entire group?! Are all black people lazy? NO! Are all whites, rascist? NO! Are all Mexicans illegal? NO! Are all Christian’s the same? NO! I am a Christian and I am nothing like, many. Am I perfect? NO! Do I agree with Woodward’s decision? NO! I mean, at least the women were relocated. We can go back and forth with article’s that will support both arguments. Here are some just to prove my point. The group of people in these articles, are they Christians? Are they like YOU? Don’t be that person you so despise. Some of us are good God fearing loving Christians, some of us are not. Some are good non-believing in God people and some are simply just bad, real bad.

                  http://citylimits.org/2015/02/25/after-the-shouting-do-shelters-and-supportive-housing-harm-neighborhoods/

                  http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/inspire/2015/12/19/camp-alpha-homeless-shelter-sunnyslope-phoenix/77556542/

                  http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/05/11/3657404/washington-homeless-criminalizaton/

                  http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/55322881-story

                  In this last article from Fox… Are the customers “scared away”; are they Christians or non Christians? Are they black? Are they white? Do they even belong to a religion? What religion? Religion is not the problem, it’s the insidious plague in people that is sewed in from generation to generation. There are good Christian groups and there are bad Christian groups. I hope and pray to God everyday to help me live as much as possible a life instructed in Matthew 5-7.

                  The balance some of us make as God fearing people, is a balance most do not consider. Woodward has a balance and I am thankful for people that have a balance; to take care of themselves and others regardless of there color, race, or creed.

              • Stella says:

                Have you ever met a devil? How does it look like. I for sure do not believe in god nor the devil and my life is moving on. I stopped believing in these things when I lost my son to leukemia. I was a very strong believer in god and followed all what the bible said but when my son was sick, I prayed endless prayers but still god who promised in the bible that prayers made in faith will heal the sick did not listen to my prayers. Ever since then I now believe there is totally no god nor satan and there are only two things in this world life and death period. Do not tell me that it was god’s plan. I do not have to pay a heavy price to get god’s blessings. Do not even tell me that he has gone to a better place because it does not exist the only better place is on this earth. Why hasn’t jesus who is claimed to be most holy not come back and he will never come back. I have given up with god and religion. I want to lead the life animals are leading.

                • consultgtf says:

                  I fully agree with Stella, but partially though…

                  Whether You are Believer or Atheist Scientist, GOD did not create evil, devil, wrong, bad…so on, so forth, HE cannot because HE IS GOOD GOD, not MAN who is born with SENSES and live only to SATISFY them.

                  Only bad human wants to prove that illusions are great, from the time of Adam to latest …Think of Anyone who fits in that slot.

                  Now Stella to answer your basic question… IF YOUR BELIEF in GOD was without doubting HIM, like Lot’s wife your son would have been saved… very easy to say this! without knowing your family background, MAYBE ONLY YOU PRAYED while all others were continuing a sinful life. Did YOU EVER STOP THEM or were not interested?

                  God has plans created for EACH and EVERY ONE of us,

                  We have been loaded with talents when we are born, if we like those mentioned in parables either hide or waste them for nothing, get only NOTHING in return, but blame God?

                • consultgtf says:

                  Now to answer your last question, “I want to lead a life animals are leading…”

                  What are others living.. No one is leading, everyone is living, to satisfy their SENSES not even like ANIMALS, but the difference is, some get satisfaction with either MONEY, MAN/WOMEN, FAME, Materials…

                  No one is living a worthy life to question God, only when we are pushed to the corner, we seek GOD, otherwise we NOT atheist, but BETRAYERS of GOD’s LOVE.

            • Santa Cause says:

              kats: “And do you really think people can’t be kind, or learn how to be kind, without going to church? That’s rather presumptuous. You probably think atheists and agnostics don’t have a moral code to follow because they don’t share your faith.”

              King James version bible, Romans 2:14 “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”

  18. Esther says:

    I still find it a very funny thing that atheists and make believe “Christians” always raise the same question and point fingers at God for every bad thing that happens in the world.

    “God always had the opportunity to say, I refuse to create mankind, because it will result in the creation of evil and suffering. By choosing to create us, God chose to create suffering where none previously existed. An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser….

    Clearly, God offers us NO protection if he refuses to spare even the most innocent from the most evil. Does it stand to reason that God would want to save guilty sinners in the next life, when he won’t even save the most innocent in this one?”

    Boy oh boy, who do you think you are trying to dictate in the first place? Do you know Him? Have He spoken to you about WHY He created mankind the way it is? As logical as you try to sound here, you are speaking YOUR side of the story and YOUR own twisted understanding of creation. You don’t have any understanding of the mind of God to even be able to evaluate His thinking, so your argument will never stand.

    “So why didn’t God just design a punishment that didn’t involve punishing innocent children?”

    You obviously can’t distinguish God’s active punishment and the fruits of a wrongdoing. Whether you like it or not, we live in a world where our actions impact us, our children and even other human beings. Disease, famine etc can never happen without human’s abuse of nature or greed for more at the expense of others. At the end of the day, its ALL people reaping what they sow and then their descendants reaping what they sow. So leave the term “punishment” out of this cycle please, thanks.

    “In fact, if God were truly benevolent, he would see to it that only the absolute minimum amount of suffering existed. Anything beyond that would be, by definition, unnecessary, and God would be malevolent for allowing it.”

    Sure, God should ensure the absolute minimum amount of suffering, so people can kill, steal, wage wars and not be able to cause others to suffer, and then these same malicious people will see that they can continue killing, stealing, waging wars since ULTIMATELY, they can only do minimum amount of damage. Wow, doing evil without much consequences is definitely a good idea for stopping evil or making people learn how horrible their actions really are…. NOT!

    “Why is it that God can help us with so many little things, but he can’t (or won’t) stop lunatics from raping and killing children?”

    Yeah, the same people who complain that God doesn’t babysit grown adults by stopping lunatics from doing evil will complain in the next second that they have no freedom because their own parents always try to babysit them. And the worst thing is, lunatics most likely won’t stop being lunatics, so what amount of babysitting should God do? Hmm?

    “Man did not design harmful viruses, bacteria, and natural disasters. Would it really destroy our faith or free will if we lived in a world without these things? Wouldn’t we still be free to lie, cheat, steal, assault, kill, destroy, and reject God without these things?

    Once again, the world-where-evil-actions-don’t-yield-evil-outcomes nonsense. And you think such a world would be better? Think again.

    “As a Christian, I may have been able to rationalize such loss if it always resulted in other people becoming saved; but it’s hard to imagine that such a scheme would work, or that God would kill children just to bolster salvation rates. (Why not just kill off vocal atheists?)”

    Woah woah woah, the same person who says children should not be killed is offering an alternative of killing atheists!!! Please don’t say you’re a Christian when such horrendous contradictions and evil come right from your mind!

    “However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?”

    The REAL conundrum is the cognitive dissonance that people like you demonstrate when you try to argue for the existence/non-existence of God. On one hand, you hope God exists so that all the blame of evil can be shifted to Him. On the other hand, you hope God doesn’t exist so you can continue living life your own way and not give a damn about the millions of children that you claim are dying. Are you kidding us or something?

    If the sane people would stop wasting their time on mindless debates on whether God exists and instead use their time to help out the less fortunate children etc, the whole world would turn out just a little less upsetting. But if the same people would enjoy their time laughing at God-believers, mocking how God does not stop evil, yet themselves couldn’t give a damn about the suffering of others, then they are no less different than the “God” they complain about 24/7. They are just projecting their own indifference, hypocrisy, bs reasoning and whatnots onto a Divine Being they have zero understanding about. End of story.

    • consultgtf says:

      So are you concluding that, there were/are none, born on this earth till now?

      If God exists, and then so called SANE people should have realised it earlier and stopped sinning long ago…to save atleast the coming innocent new born, but THE sane people let the children who is/WILL suffer for MY SINS or be SANE enough to continue WALKING against THEE GOD?

      • Esther says:

        Sane people don’t always make the right decisions. Even if they know God exists, they can still turn against God and actively rebel.

        You didn’t seem to understand my argument. I was mocking the atheists and ex-Christians for their complaints against God when they never looked at how they themselves acted to allow the evil in this world. They shift blame and refused to take responsibility as independent, capable human beings.

        • Dino says:

          We are capable humans…. BINGO! That’s it. God exists, PERIOD. Those who don’t believe, might simply never. They will simply live “the best life ever” die, The End. Pretty sad if you ask me. For those who don’t believe in God are the very same people that would be appose God should he reveal Himself to them. Let me see if I can paint the scene….. (We live in a world, where God is all revealing; everyone knows who God is. The world is “perfect” God does not allow anyone to do anything wrong, in fact He controls the choices you make, because he knows that it will lead to hurting someone 5 years from the day YOU wanted to make a “bad choice”.) Ok, if you can understand, than you know where I’m going with it. Everyone who hates and opposes God’s existence would rebel. It’s really a lose-lose. The God, the God that exists and is taught from Bible scripture is revealed to those who believe and choose to accept a righteous way of living.

          Human lives develop so much better when they accept that we are not alone, that there is a God after death that will give us a spirit body and those who accept to live by the commandments as best as they can; the commandments spoken from Jesus Christ in Matthew 5-7. Folowing those instuctions to the best of your ability guarantees a fulfilling life for each new generation. This is why it is so important for parents to raise children to believe in God and life after death. Go to Church instead of a drinking party, read the bible instead of facebooking 5+ hours a day, help the homeless instead of watching movies all day. The “homeless” do they believe? … They came from broken homes and likely lived faithless lives and made some bad choices (unGodly choices). I’m not claiming to know statistics. Each story is unique, go an ask them. That’s my source, from actual homeless people.

          P.S. This wasn’t aimed towards you Esther. You just got me to want to say something. Thanks for the inspiation!

        • Stella says:

          Are you saying that you do not have pain and are always perfect. Does it mean that you or your people never go through pain, sickness or death because you are not insane and watch what you?

  19. consultgtf says:

    God is God, ALWAYS like Sun,only we so called human run away from him, rotate and revolve but only around the Sun, and keep blaming Thee Father for ALL mistakes/Sin we commit.

    At least this NEW YEAR let us take oath, WE WILL NOT SIN! and see the difference!

    • Stella says:

      Which other sin? I though Jesus died for our sins and he pardoned us. Does it mean his death was nothing. Why does the bible say jesus died for our sins. This where where I get to refuse but acknowledge that all religious books are man made none sense.

      • consultgtf says:

        Happy Christmas Stella,

        I have been asking, THIS question to all Fathers of the church from 1196 till date… No one has answered My Basic Question, “What is the validity of Christ death?” Meaning is it for Jews of 0-33 AD or Gentiles or Romans or new generation coming in 2050…

        No No No…

        Jesus could have never died for MY or YOUR sins, or did YOU say “I have Debit card loaded with Christ death for Life long validity TO SIN?” was I wrong in my hearing?…

        WE SIN, OUR CHILDREN SUFFER, This VALIDATES, First Commandment. God is Loving God for loving people and very BAD God for BAAAAAAAAD People, whether they are Adam or Eve!

        Or NONE should be suffering as Jesus died for, WHAT EVER I and YOU are Sinning, or MY Human fore-Fathers committed, from past 2000 years and years to come.

        All books maybe cooked up to suit your way of living but not OT, Quran, or Tanakh. Read them with care and holiness then you will understand, HOW MUCH OUR FATHER loves Us.from creation.

      • Pan says:

        You only get pardon from your sins, once you except Jesus as your savoir and ask for forgiveness. Once you have asked for forgiveness you cannot go back to your old ways, you have to change your ways and commit to living a life free of sin otherwise it’s pointless.

        Revelation 3:15
        “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!”

        Revelation 3:17
        “You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.”

        In other words you can ask for forgiveness and keep repeating the same sins.

  20. Anonymous says:

    There is no God.

  21. Um says:

    I have read the many posts in search of answers and hope during a period of darkness. Through all these posts, the most real are the ppl who have lived through tragedy and have come to find God or loose god. To these people, my wish/prayers/thoughts are that you either continue to find strength in your God or that you find strength from something of this earth. To the man who lost his three year old, my heart goes out to you. Your other children need their father. Go to them if you can. Your sense of guilt helps nobody. You must live and carry on. We can only live the present and the future. Find someone to hug you physically or emotionally. Look in people’s eyes and you will feel the hugs. To the person that lost their child to leukemia, again my heart goes out to you. To the man who turned himself around through his belief, good for you! You have done an amazing thing. To the person who reached out, there is God, love or programing at its finest. The rest is arrogance in my opinion. After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion that God’s existence is immaterial. It is what brings us peace, strength, love, compassion and hope that matters. It is what brings us self love and compassion as well as for others that gets us through the darkness and is a beacon to others. Proving the existence or lack thereof of God/god is an intellectual pursuit that does nothing but divide us from what we all share, being human with the tragedies, miracles, light, dark, sad, happy, successes, failures, and so on. I notice in this discussion of God/god, the primary focus was on the Christian God. We all bleed and we are all children of God or of this earth. Welcome to your belief. This is your free will given to you in some cases, hammered into you in others, or chosen by you in others. I wish you all peace.

  22. Darrell Lamb says:

    After reading all of this, I cant agree. Children should not suffer

  23. Ian harsant says:

    I think the same way I’ve read many questions but yours have touched me more thank you

  24. consultgtf says:

    My doubt, Will you suffer more, when you are hurt or when your kid who is so young at age, who is unable to express their pain suffers?

    GTF, is telling us not to SIN, but still if we continue, our next generation suffers for what YOU DID!
    If YOU want THE SUFFERING TO STOP, THEN YOUUUUUU first stop sinning. Can you?

    • Santa Cause says:

      Jesus said that if a man looks on a (married) woman to satisfy a sexual desire, he has already committed adultery, one of the listed 10 laws (commandments) of Moses.

      Furthermore, St. Paul himself, author of a good chink of the N.T. and a man who forsook all for the sake of the gospel, describes the losing struggle against sin: Romans 7:18 NKJV (St. Paul) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

      You say to stop sinning and ask, “Can you?”, and I will ask you the same question.

      For me, the answer is yes, eventually, but only with the death I received in baptism with Christ and only as I ‘mortify the deeds of the body through the spirit’. Watchman Nee in his book, ‘The Spiritual Man in Three Volumes’ speaks on this topic at length.

      Its the narrow gate that few get through.

      Like a tourist who can’t find his way using the map and who refuses to stop and ask directions, for this reason this narrow gate is very hard to find, let alone recognize once its found.

      • consultgtf says:

        But, the problem is we are not tourist on this earth! In fact, this earth was made for YOU & ME, then…
        My MISUNDERSTANDING is, I CANNOT/WILL NOT go to GOD! whether you believe or not read,
        Matthew/11-11…

        Do you agree to DISAGREE?

    • Stella says:

      So what was the reason for jesus’ coming into the world. Was it not to pardon our sins? If we are still being punished for our sins which jesus claims he forgave us then it is not true that he died for our sins. I believe very well that you are a father. Do you always punish your children every time they go wrong? If us humans can forgive our children, then what kind of god is this who punishes his children even for the slightest sin they commit. If one of your children makes a mistake, do you punish the rest of the other children because of the mistake made by the other child?. If god is loving, why does he push the punishment to innocent children. I have said Nooooooo, there is no god . We live by nature. We are born and we die period. Nothing like eternal life. If souls existed, then dead bodies would be able to talk and have feelings.

      • Santa Cause says:

        Jesus pardoned our sin? Yes and no. Jesus was a sacrifice for sin but sin never will be condoned or acceptable with God. Sin brought inescapable death for Adam, as warned by God. The only escape from that resulting death for the offspring of Adam (humankind, also referred to as ‘Adam’ in the bible) is by presenting the sacrifice of Jesus. It doesn’t just happen automatically for all. Its available for all, but, like any free gift, you have to accept it before its yours. This whole world was given over voluntarily to the devil when Adam and Eve obeyed the devil and disobeyed (disbelieved) God and all their offspring (all humans) have a chance to reverse that decree through Christ who came not only to forgive sin but to give us life if we ask.

        God intervenes for those who pray and relate to God along the guidelines exampled in the bible. If no intervention is requested of God along those guidelines, then it is unlikely that the end result will be a happy ending. The usual reaction to prayer not answered is an attack on God or a denial of his existence, however, that’s similar to blaming your computer for perceived failures when you haven’t taught yourself how to run it.

        You misunderstand souls and dead bodies: bodies are like clothing for the invisible human spirit. When the spirit moves on from mortal life, the clothes are left behind to rot and the spirit either goes to be with the Lord or with the devil, depending on which one was made the boss.

        • consultgtf says:

          Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin? To whom was he sacrificed? and Who pardoned humans for Jesus sacrifice?

          So, YOU are not a Christian, who believes that there are three God’s, in one God…who believes in Jesus sacrificing himself to himself…Please!

          Just BELIEVE in GOD THE FATHER, all others are HIS creations! Any doubt?

          • Santa Cause says:

            Whoa there, consultgtf. Let’s back it up a bit to the question you asked about sin:
            You: “If YOU want THE SUFFERING TO STOP, THEN YOUUUUUU first stop sinning. Can you?”

            I then asked you this in my response: Santa: “You say to stop sinning and ask, “Can you?”, and I will ask you the same question.”

            But you have not responded.

            Lets deal with that question first shall we? After that I will be happy to answer your other questions related to the sacrifice of Jesus, the matter you raise of being Christian and Matt 11:11, which says: “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he”.

            • consultgtf says:

              Thank you for reminding and stopping.

              Yes, I HAVE STOPPED SINNING COMPLETELY. In fact I did not when I was supposed to!
              I don’t want to see, MY generations suffering.

              Anyway, why should they? for my sake!

              • Santa Cause says:

                Your claim for complete sinlessness is a bit hard to believe, consultgtf, in light of the scriptures which say: “1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

                • Kyle says:

                  We are talking about children. What great sin can a four year old child commit, deserving of death by cancer?

                  When my son fought leukemia, I saw children who were born with cancer. What sin did they commit, deserving suffering and death?

                  No one here is claiming to be perfectly sinless. The question is the suffering and death of children.

                  • Santa Cause says:

                    “No one here is claiming to be perfectly sinless.”

                    I was addressing consultgtf’s claim of being completely sinless because ‘he doesn’t want to see his generation suffer’.

                    I don’t have any children suffering an agonizing death, and just seeing that depicted in news stories or passing by an obvious case of such sickness on the street is enough to undo me. Living with it through your own child’s suffering would be unbearable for me, personally, and I admire your stamina. Thank you for sharing with us about what you are facing. Words can be too easy when there is not someone ‘in the room’ who is going through this agony themselves.

                    Allow me to say that unless we get an answer from God as to why he seems to be allowing pain (circumstances are not always a reliable way to draw conclusions) and suffering by disease in children, we won’t know the answer because the bible has situations where disease is the result of sin and in other cases its not the result of sin.

                    “What great sin can a four year old child commit, deserving of death by cancer?”

                    None. Its ludicrous to assume the child is to blame. The child is not to blame, and if Jesus were walking the earth right now and was in the same room as this 4 year old child, the child would be on his knee in a heartbeat and I’m certain the outcome would be a complete healing. In a fully functioning Christian body of believers, Jesus walks, but I only hear of miracles happening in more remote areas of the world and sometimes they occur in North America, but far too few in number. I’m guessing that has a lot to do with the ‘condition’ of the church today; rot and decay render it useless, or we’re too busy preaching the wrong stuff and not the ‘good news’; the gospel. In the early church the gospel was preached and miracles happened to confirm the word preached. But I’m sure it must be more than just that and more complex than that and, try as we might, there are other factors at play that none of us really know about or understand.

                    Honestly, I would rather have miracles than answers.

                    I hope and pray your child recovers completely, Kyle.

                • consultgtf says:

                  True, what you are saying is very true! As I told earlier. I met with a very tragic accident, which made to lose my wife and son in one go… I survived but to be called as a Antrograde Amenisia by doctors, coming back to normalcy after 5 years. I have survived by Miraculous blessing of GTF!

                  I was declared, as 99.99% dead, and 0.01% alive.When I was taken to hospital…

                  I back into action, to tell all “HOW MY IS GREAT, but only to THOSE who adore HIM and worship ONLY, HIM!

                  I agree, if I was advised,about this, I would have doubted, like YOU.

                  By HIS grace, I have traveled the world almost… Visited USA, China, Singapore, three times, then all JPAC countries… Only country I couldn’t visit is Australia and Israel. Why am I telling all this?

                  Though I could have done lot of EXPERIMENT’s, I didn’t. That’s the reason YOU are reading my life testimony. Or…

                  • Santa Cause says:

                    That is quite an experience, consultgtf, and please accept my condolences about your wife and son.

                    I have to disagree with your claim, however, that you are walking in sinlessness.

                    St. Paul did not even claim sinlessness and he was raised back to life more than once after being left for dead when a crowd stoned him for blasphemy. And miracles of healing were done through him as well, so, I have to go with his claim that he wasn’t ‘perfect’ yet, however, more ‘perfect’ than any Christian today while still in a mortal body: Philippians 12:12 “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.”

                    For the sake of those I come across in a wheelchair or those children suffering cancer, I would very much love to have miracles happen through my preaching but I fail if it takes that level of commitment. I’m nowhere near the level that Paul reached: Acts 20:22 “And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But none of these things move me, NEITHER COUNT I MY LIFE DEAR UNTO MYSELF, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.”

                    The account in Acts of Paul’s missionary work goes on to describe some brutal conditions he would knowingly face after this point, and eventually a tortuous death at the hands of Nero: Wikipedia: “The Bible does not say how or when Paul died. There is an early tradition by Ignatius, probably around 110 AD, that Paul was martyred.[92] Dionysius of Corinth in a letter to the Romans (166–174 AD), stated that Paul and Peter were martyred in Italy.[93] Eusebius also cites the Dionysius passage.[94]”

                    Paul put everything he was into his ministry: Acts 20:33 “I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.” (He was a tent and sail maker and worked to cover his own financial needs so he would not be a burden on the church)

                    I think the level of Paul’s devotion to God, together with his knowledge of God through the Holy Spirit, and the miraculous healing resulting from that level of devotion are connected. I can’t help but think that if the whole of the global Christian population were as sold out as Paul, there would be no sickness on planet earth because their prayers for healing would result in miraculous healings and 500Q would have to shut down this blog.

                    Really, I do think that and God knows I’m willing to test my theory out. God knows I can’t just make that happen on my own and I would need His help, but he knows I’m hoping for that now.

          • Stella says:

            I do not think I just have to believe in god as you have said. I can not believe in something I do not know. I think jesus was not a sacrifice because if he was, then we would not be going through pain now and neither did go love the world. If jesus sealed our sin by his death on the cross, why is sin still being talk about

            • consultgtf says:

              Let us not mix up…Belief in God vs Something YOU don’t know, Do you know how your body is alive?

              You should not believe in God, just because I/we believe. Believe for yourself, with these facts…
              Working of a single human cell, then they grouped together to become a separate functioning Organ, then they grouped to become a system, then all these clubbed together to become a distinguished Stella!
              You would have read about in these in school days but can, YOU create something like this?
              We humans know only to copy.
              To answer your question, why is sin still being around?
              No, We will have it until we have Homo Sapians on this earth, not before we stop using our FREE WILL and EGO. It will never die, as it keeps dying with every human, resurrected again in other person, in other form…

          • Santa Cause says:

            consultgtf: “Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin? To whom was he sacrificed? and Who pardoned humans for Jesus sacrifice?”

            Are you responding to some theological work? Are you trying to prove you are right and whoever says that Jesus was a perfect sacrifice and propitiation for our sins is wrong? I have never read any great theological works on the subject and I’m not a theologian, and that is who you need to ask. But it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind even without reading any theology on the subject. I don’t need to read any theology on it. I’ve read only the bible and it lead me into some awesome, spiritual experiences and communication with God the Father through the Holy Spirit, so I don’t need to read the theology about those things you’re convinced are not true. Its like I don’t need to be a mechanic to know how to drive. And its like someone telling me that bumble bees are aerodynamically unsound and therefore can’t fly. I’ve seen them fly and so I can say to that someone that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

            consultgtf: “So, YOU are not a Christian, who believes that there are three God’s, in one God…who believes in Jesus sacrificing himself to himself…Please!”

            Again, what theological works are you referring to here that you find you can’t agree with? My experiences, not someone else’s and someone else’s theology, have convinced me beyond doubt of what I believe and I’m not at all interested in helping anyone to agree with me unless they are open to a different understanding than they have at present. That would not be you, consultgtf.

            consultgtf: “Just BELIEVE in GOD THE FATHER, all others are HIS creations! Any doubt?”

            I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, not a creation of God. And, no, there is no doubt.

            • consultgtf says:

              Good Santa, You have started asking questions now…
              But if Jesus, was lamb sacrificed for our sins, THEN PLEASE answer,
              WHY ARE PEOPLE SUFFERING? WHEN god was sacrificed for our sins, my sin credit card can be always in used, anyway?
              When God has given his only begatton son as sacrifice, for MY SINS, I will not repeant, and keep satisfing my senses, let my generation suffer, ,

              My GOD is just like a MIRROR, punishing people if they people are punishing people…loving God if people are loving one another, answer me!
              Does everyone suffer in our locality or only few…? those who deserve love, deserves more love.

              And those who punish God’s creation, suffer for generation,

              PROVE ME WRONG!

              • Santa Cause says:

                No, I have no interest in proving you wrong. Besides, God will have to do that, not me. If you would like to believe what I believe, I can help you and will continue the conversation with you. Do you want to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, died and rose again?

                • consultgtf says:

                  Santa, Don’t catch me on the wrong foot, though.

                  Jesus is Son of God, meaning Jesus is God himself, so You want HIM to die for your SINS! Because you will keep satisfying your senses, You want a scape goat to die for YOUR sins.

                  • Santa Cause says:

                    (I’ve started a new comment in order to prevent the narrowing thing happening… see: consultgtf: “… so You want HIM to die for your SINS!”

                  • Santa Cause says:

                    consultgtf: “The whole BIBLE is about GOD’s LOVE, and as you could find verses to show Human weakness, I can collect lot of Bible verses to support my HARD FIND TRUTH, that we can CONTROL OUR SENSES,”

                    You are talking like a person who has rejected Christ, and you sound like you want a debate on the subject but not honest enough to admit that to me when I told you already I’m not interested in debating.

                    consultgtf: “Santa let us understand the REALITY, ONE PERSONS DEATH CANNOT SAVE TRILLIONS of life from 33AD, till today, for coming generations.
                    This is Psychology, well thought one…refined over years.”

                    This is not psychology. It’s written in the bible that ALL, ALL trillions and trillions are included in Christ’s saving grace:

                    Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for ALL; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

                    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for ALL, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

                    As I said previously, I’m not interested in debating you or anyone on this subject. I asked you if you were interested in believing what I believe and the honest (to lie is to sin) answer would be for you to have said, simply, “No”.

                    If you are calling everyone on this site to stop sinning, start with yourself and honestly answer me that you don’t want to believe what I believe about Christ and that you want to argue and debate your views instead.

  25. Kyle says:

    I am a father of a child with stage IV leukemia. I have watched many children die, and those deaths are horrific. I have watched my son suffer beyond limits that most could endure. Many here have used their personal theology to explain, justify, or defend the suffering of the innocent. You may not understand it, but your words are like heaping hot coals into the souls of us who have gone through these experiences.

    I have not real a single direct answer to the question. If God is God, why does he allow children to suffer? You say we cannot understand the mysteries of God. However the care and protection of innocent children seems to be a safe starting point. Why does it not happen?

    I have made many friends on the cancer floor. Many of them have lost their children to cancer. They all work through their loss in different ways. The one thing they do to do is become dogmatic, preaching to everyone to see God through their eyes. They understand that everyone must approach the question in their own way.

    Your theology is your interpretation of God. Do not condemn or judge others, simply because we do not see it your way.

    Seven million children, under the age five, die every day. Do not be so arrogant to believe that you have the one and only correct answer, straight from God. Many others believe in the same God, red the same Bible, and see things every differently.

    Stop the preaching. Stop the blind obedience to theology, creeds, and doctrine. Try a little understanding. Try a little compassion. A child dying of cancer is not good. Period.

    I can accept that there is both a God and pediatric cancer. What I cannot accept is God’s people saying it is good, or right, or justified in any way. I cannot accept God’s people telling me to be thankful. I cannot accept God’s people telling me how to feel or think. I can believe in Christ. I just can’t handle all his damed Christians and their callous arrogance.

    • Jeff says:

      I have 3 children of my own who are all adults. I cannot imagine the pain you are going through. There is really nothing I can say except that you have my sincerest sympathy. I agree with your post 100% – it is this callousness and arrogance that has driven me away from the church. (they didn’t drive me from church – I fled.) I am sorry for your grief.

  26. I don’t hate God, I’d love God if someone could give me proof. I lost my Mother to cancer and right to the very end she really believed in God, so Did my Dad. This I find amazing, but this I believe was not a testament to God, this was a testament to how strong my Mother was as a human. That is far more amazing to me than any God, she was more to me than a sermon at her funeral and the time the preacher spent belittling families who used non christian songs to remember their loved ones, she was my mother, my amazing Mum. I am angry at the concept of God, at those who believe it and the way its been manipulated for financial gain and to justify bloodshed! The arrogance and stupidity of this article I find soul destroying, I could argue anyone on any single one of these points made under the table.

    • consultgtf says:

      Sorry Benjamin, I also have a very old mother, in her Eighties, preparing food for me…keeping it hot, and waiting for me to return from work in late hours…

      losing MOTHER, which cannot be explained! But I know the REALITY, though.
      Let us not discuss with that as base, I don’t want to…

      You have every right to get angry on those who manipulate…

      But, Please do not blame God for this situation.

      God never KILL’s/murder people, it is WE who are doing it to HIM every minute and second,

      • Kyle says:

        We don’t give cancer. We don’t cause tornados. A four year old child with a brain tumor is not doing anything to God or anyone else.

        • Pan says:

          On the contrary, we created cancer. Natural disaster occur more often due to all the nonsense we do to the earth.

          “Cancer is a man-made disease fuelled by the excesses of modern life, a study of ancient remains has found…
          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1320507/Cancer-purely-man-say-scientists-finding-trace-disease-Egyptian-mummies.html

          http://borgenproject.org/natural-disasters-increasing/

          Humans are responsible
          http://theconversation.com/explainer-are-natural-disasters-on-the-rise-39232

          “Without question, anthropogenic climate change will result in changes in the frequency and severity of hydro-meteorological disasters. However, the changes will not be uniform globally, with some areas experiencing more frequent events, other places less frequent events.

          There is significant complexity and uncertainty about these future trends but much research is underway to investigate this issue. For example, in Australia, research suggests tropical cyclones will become less frequent but the severity will increase. By contrast, in the Mediterranean region recent research has suggested significant future variations of rainfall extreme events with some locations likely to experience more rainfall events and others less.

          So, yes, the number of (natural) disasters occurring is on the rise but this is because of a complex set of interactions between the physical Earth system, human interference with the natural world and increasing vulnerability of human communities.”

  27. consultgtf says:

    I am not justifying, what all are doing is right but I am only requesting all SINNERS to stop sinning atleast for ONE generation and see how your life changes for good.

    I am sorry, As a four year old is undergoing pain and trauma, have we stopped SINNING!

    • sklyjd says:

      Obviously God gave us choice, therefore what you are asking would never happen. Do you not realise God knew this? Or in fact the inventors of Biblical stories set this up and knew this.

  28. a pray to gods for land for unwanted , unneccesary , not required peoples, please donot kill and spoil ,donot send under earth and hells

    • consultgtf says:

      Is God doing this? Or we humans?

      • Santa Cause says:

        The question “Why does God allow…” assumes that God allows. How do we know ‘God allows’ other than by what things we see taking place in the visible realm? To make the assumption that ‘God allows’ has to also assume that God exists and that the unseen, invisible realm He exists in must also exist, and so, carrying through on that hypothesis, how do we know what goes on in the unseen, invisible realm in order to say for certain that nothing is happening at God’s end regarding the evil such as children dying horrible deaths from cancer?

        Do you know me? How can you claim you know things about me? Would that not be ridiculous for, conversely, me to assume I know you and then go on to make disparaging calls about your character? Getting to know me, unless you know how to hack out my telephone number and are able to find my address and meet me face-to-face for a few coffees may begin the process of knowing me, but getting to know God is far easier than that. Jesus made that possible.

        The real question should be, “Why are you not bothering to get to know God?”

  29. Santa Cause says:

    500 Q: “And maybe Michael replied, “Yes Lord, but where were you just then? Why didn’t you stop him?” What could God possibly say? “Well… it won’t happen again, so that makes it okay.” How could someone who truly loves you allow for such a thing?”

    This seems to be a reasonable, hypothetical situation and the supposed answers all SEEM to be easily predictable, however, if you want to keep with your faith (and perhaps you don’t… that’s your call to make and yours alone) you will predict the answer based on knowing God from scripture, or, better yet, you will ask him for an answer right now instead of waiting until your life is over and you’re on death’s door.

    Again, I’m repeating myself: Eve jumped at the serpent’s (devil’s) proposition that God was controlling her and lying to her.

    If she really knew God she would not have done that.

    We all have a second chance but we still do the same thing she did and so our blame for Eve getting us here in this ‘death-limbo’ called mortal life on earth is not justified.

    Get to know God. Oh, and give it everything you have or you will fail. Even if you succeed, it will take a while for your ‘spiritual eyes’ to differential between good and evil sources of direction for your life, but you’ll get the hang of it in time.

    Or not. Maybe the struggle isn’t worth the sacrifice for you and you’ll take your chances with what you have. Your call entirely.

    Yeah, it sounds trite, but its true. We’re in a maze here on planet earth and what seems like the way out probably isn’t. There are spiritual forces that want to block you from getting out of the maze and they are nastier and better-equipped for trickery than, say, some of the most believable internet scams that would convince you that light is dark and dark is light.

  30. Child Of God says:

    Why god let ISIS beheaded innocent christians and children?! I guess it hurts.😦

  31. Bunnyl Lake says:

    Bullshit!

  32. Santa Cause says:

    consultgtf: “… so You want HIM to die for your SINS!”

    (I’ve started this new comment in order to prevent the narrowing thing happening)

    No, I don’t want him to die for my sins. He has ALREADY died for my sins, and wanted to, so, among other things besides providing eternal life, I can be free from sin’s rule in my body.

    You don’t understand the purpose of the Law, that it was to expose sin. No one can live up to the full measure of the Law. No one has, Romans 3:23: ‘for all have sinned’… The Law was to expose sin and lead us to Christ:

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    (Justification by faith is not through the works of the law, which is through the flesh, which is impossible, as Romans 7:18 and 7:21 clearly shows.)

    Romans 7:18 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

    Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    (But we can’t use the above as an excuse to sin freely. Jesus provided the way out of the sin trap through the process of having faith in His death working in us, making us dead to sin but alive to God and therefore able to live free from sin’s control, but not sinlessness. We still have to contend in faith for this ‘deadness’ to sin.)

    Romans 6: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    • consultgtf says:

      Santa let us understand the REALITY, ONE PERSONS DEATH CANNOT SAVE TRILLIONS of life from 33AD, till today, for coming generations.
      This is Psychology, well thought one…refined over years.
      Everyone is suffering, will suffer till we understand the truth.
      Then, What is the TRUTH?
      We are CREATED to GLORIFY, Our Creator, and NOT SATISFY OUR SENSES!

      The whole BIBLE is about GOD’s LOVE, and as you could find verses to show Human weakness, I can collect lot of Bible verses to support my HARD FIND TRUTH, that we can CONTROL OUR SENSES, and MOVE TOWARDS GOD, and not AWAY!

  33. laura deines says:

    I am repeatedly disappointed in our inability as humans to decypher reality from fiction. Religions, all religions are just brainwashing mankind to a point where we don’t have any brain matter left.The most evolved and intelligent humans on earth are not followers of a religious deity, as religion is just a crutch for the weak

    • I too am repeatedly disappointed in our species, for many reasons.

    • Lucio says:

      The honest truth though is not that god is love but just look at the condition of the world right now… Is that love ? Is this from god ? He truly doesn’t love us because he actually hates those people who oppose him. That is why he sends all kinds of diseases like AIDS. And cancer to kill them faster and send them to H.E.L.L. faster. So who can trust him ? Is he trustworthy like he says in the bible ? Does heaven really exists or is H.E.L.L. the only reality ? I would answer and say YES there is no heaven or reality itself. It is all an illusion like startek. Physics and the virtual reality. I was reading an article about how quantam physics has discovered that we are not an existing as reality would show that we are merely ghosts. That is what the startrek series was airing on t.v.. Recently.

  34. Lucio says:

    Oh sure i am 100% convinced that this god is really none other than the devil himself. So I believe evil exists or is borne of him. They call him the “father”. So if he is then christs father is satan
    Pope francis did make a mention that god is evil recently. So we are all punished for the excuse of sin. I think he is nothing but the destroyer and his almighty will must be followed. His perfect justice is the contrary. Can anyone define for me what true justice is? Oh happy fault !!!.

    • Santa Cause says:

      You’re not the first to accuse Jesus (God) of being the devil:

      Matthew 24:22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
      24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
      25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
      29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
      30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

  35. bill says:

    Its funny to me listening to everyone’s opinions here. Bottom line is we don’t know all the answers and we wont until that fateful day when our hearts stops. And then its to late to let anyone know if Heaven is for real or not. So I look at it like this, bad things happen in this world. But for me I believe in doing good and doing the right thing. When you wake up in the morning and look at your child with all the love in your heart, how can you explain that feeling other than something more than us. Explain to me how a stranger can risk his or her life for another? Explain how a soldier would give his or her life for his brothers and sisters in arms? Yes there are horrible things that happen in this life, but there are also good and beautiful things too. The human race is a special kind of being . We have free will, we have the ability to reason, We have the ability to believe in something bigger than our selves. Why is it that no other animal on earth can do that? Ask yourself if everything you see around you was just a fluke. How everything in this universe is governed by laws. Statistically the chances of having a planet that can attain life and thrive is a miracle in itself. So yes there is more evidence of a creator than not. Believe what you want but in the end its your choices that effect your outcome.

  36. consultgtf says:

    We fail for senses, this is the NAKED truth, Instead of agreeing to this, we talk about other things.

  37. Benjamin says:

    This is EXACTLY the issue I have been struggling with for some time now. Your reasoning is sound, your logic is undeniable. To carry on believing in a healing, prayer answering God is to deny reality and live in a fantasy within your head.

    So why do people continue to believe? FEAR. Take away death and not one would care for God. Not one. Fear keeps people believing and loving that which is unbelievable and un-loveable.

    Having said that, the arguments for the design of life and the creation of the Universe and Earth are staggering. How can consciousness come from a complete lack of such? Why is there anything at all rather than nothing at all?

    The only truly logical, reasonable and rational position to take is that of the Agnostic.

    • dinoconstant says:

      “The only truly logical, reasonable and rational position to take is that of the Agnostic.”

      Thank you for your contribution, Benjamin.

      There are options other than that of the Agnostic that meet the criteria above: Vital Force or the absence of some of the many qualities we assign to God. I’ve explained this in other posts on this web site.

      Peace and love to all mankind.

      Dinos Constantinou

  38. mary says:

    Been there myself as a child. Now somewhat understand.

  39. dinoconstant says:

    I’m forever in debt to people who are willing to share their views on discussion forums and thankful to those who take the time to create web sites and write posts that are interesting enough to inspire responses. Below is an extract I wrote about the concept of ‘sin’ on another web site:

    As for the story of Adam and Eve, why would God put the tree of knowledge in the garden if it was a sin to eat its fruit? Why would He tempt us so? Do we leave our valuables on show inside our cars or put them away in the boot? Why should it be a ‘sin’ to have knowledge? Why are we naturally curious and desirous of knowledge? Surely we didn’t acquire our curiosity as a result of Adam’s original sin?

    I have also written a short essay that I circulated to my friends and include it here to promote logical reasoning and thinking:

    My essay is an attempt to view life from a scientific perspective and to gaze in wonder at the beauty of our planet, which is teeming with life – hence my reference to Vitalistic Theory: The view that life, and all consequent biological phenomena, are due to a ‘Vital Force’. Suppose that the Being we call God is no more than this Vital Force?

    God, or the Vital Force, has been extremely active on this planet: there are the plant and animal kingdoms with millions of varieties of species and add to it the fungi and the unicellular organisms (e.g. amoebas and plankton) and all the micro-organisms e.g. bacteria and viruses.

    Now the purpose of life is clear: each species naturally exists to perpetuate itself; to compete for its existence with other species; to overcome adverse environmental factors by evolving; and, to flourish in environs that are favorable to it. Some become extinct but the Vital Force remains unaffected! There are still millions of forms of life that continue to exist. Maybe the God so many human beings pray to is similarly unconcerned, even if God is omnipotent! God does not die if a species becomes extinct.

    Vital Force could explain all the miseries endured by the human species. Without a need for benevolence, nor malevolence, all the miseries that we experience as human beings (e.g.s disease, famine, wars, physical attacks, mental suffering, etc) are merely the consequences of our struggle for survival and the ability of relatively small groups of elite human beings to dominate the rest of us. In the past, religious leaders used to subdue and dominate the masses. Currently, elite groups of secretive organisations fulfil these roles and subvert human beings in order to pursue their own agenda. Examples may include the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Links for more info on these and other secretive organisations are included below:

    http://listverse.com/2012/11/21/top-10-scandalous-freemason-secrets/

    http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/the-illuminati%28903482%29.htm

    http://listverse.com/2007/08/27/top-10-secret-societies/

    To conclude: What is the purpose of Life? For each species on this earth it is to: exist, reproduce and flourish. For most of us human beings, we want, additionally, to: enjoy our lives, love one another, avoid wars, respect our planet and all its life forms, engage in intellectual and artistic activities, and improve our quality of life for ourselves and future generations.

    It’s not that God or the Vital Force doesn’t exist; it’s likely that we human beings have a tendency to anthropomorphise Him. It’s the nature of God that needs to be understood, with honesty, and without rationalisations, misguided loyalty and solipsistic defenses of dogmatic positions, whereby we defend our opinions as though we are defending ourselves.

    • consultgtf says:

      It is YOU who are the reason for your sufferings not your God. Are you ready to accept this naked truth???

      • dinoconstant says:

        Dear consultgtf,

        You posted:

        “It is YOU who are the reason for your sufferings not your God. Are you ready to accept this naked truth???”

        I’m not so sure you understand that there is no reason for suffering. It’s a state of mind and thinking. My 93 yr old mother, for whom I am a full-time carer, frequently asks God why He has not ended her life rather than visiting many age-related ailments on her. My ex-wife left me and my children for another man, but I understood that I should not have dedicated so much time to my career, and neglected her needs. I never blamed God. Why are you alleging that I am blaming God for the sufferings of humanity? There was nothing in my piece to suggest this.

        I provided an alternative explanation for the sufferings and the substance of my penultimate paragraph was rather positive:

        “For most of us human beings, we want, additionally, to: enjoy our lives, love one another, avoid wars, respect our planet and all its life forms, engage in intellectual and artistic activities, and improve our quality of life for ourselves and future generations.”

        I tried to explain that our concepts of God are affected by human thinking and that we should not presume to know the true nature of God. We are a presumptive species and quite arrogant about what we are so sure we know. Your views do not strike me as particularly Christian. Many of your comments could easily be attributed to a Buddhist.

        Peace and love to all,
        Dinos

        • consultgtf says:

          Dear Dinos,

          I never wanted to hurt your sentiments, I am like you in all the ways, but enjoying my life as there are no One to bother me for anything and I call it blessing!

          I also have aged parents 83 and 75 yrs old, and I thank God for giving me such parents with all age problems, but now I am able to spend more time with them.

          Do you remember, “Honor your Father and Mother so that your will be live longer on this earth”.

  40. Eve Chapman says:

    In every life there is a procurement of options that lead to the first children of Adam and Eve resulting in procreation. In the beginning the bible clearly states his motive in creating Adam and then Eve. In clear unmanipulated text. He created, Adam in his image, equally he rules over the garden as god Creation. The Creation of the garden its self and all its inhabitants complete and perfect balance. The shift today’s relations in sin, Adam was a companion not a slave. A companion would not constitute for a thoughtless emotionally incompetent lacking the mental ability to know what its primary function. He made Adam and alike anything derived of his beening perfect function. He knew how to care for and rule over every species there in. By introducing free will the bible shifts describes the my personal interpret of a god who creates this exsisnstance for companions ship and then concludes the emotional attachment of that companionship then giving him free will. In faith of that relationship intentions it was for the the evidence of emotional dedication recipeacted and equal of each others capabilities to one another. Simplest Adam had never known sin wasn’t able to sin he was perfect. So introduce the idea of sin to see the human heart and its capabilities. In a deliberate attempt to show the true marvel of a humanity, yet evil sickness perverse animinties all power was given for that one game changing quality Love.. Endures forever. That ability to be consumed by weakness flesh, and that one act love that requires forgiveness and judgments based of self judgment.
    Let thee judged, less thee be judged in the eye of god. What so ever measure you use judge so that same measure will you be judged by god.

    • dinoconstant says:

      “In every life there is a procurement of options that lead to the first children of Adam and Eve resulting in procreation. In the beginning the bible clearly states his motive in creating Adam and then Eve.”

      Thank you for your contribution, Eve.

      Please don’t be offended if I remind you that there appear to be two stories of how Adam and Eve were created!

      Both are difficult to believe due to the archaeological evidence that human kind go back much further than the 6000 years suggested by biblical genealogy. If I had to choose, I would choose the first story. It is more logical and the Laws of Physics suggest that logic prevails throughout the universe.

      Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our own image, according to Our likeness……”
      Gen 1:27 So God made man; in the image of God He made him; male and female He made them.
      Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them……

      We should try to be realistic. The idea of original sin is a way of rationalizing the prevalence of suffering, not explaining it. The idea is riddled with problems:

      1) Why should knowledge of good and evil be a sin prohibited by God?
      2) If God is omniscient and good, why should He create Adam and Eve knowing that they would fall from His grace?
      3) If God is good, why should He curse Eve and all women with suffering and pain during childbirth?
      4) If God is good, why should all of Adam and Eve’s descendants be condemned to suffering?

      I could go on but I’ll stop there. God cannot be all we suppose Him to be: omnipotent; omnipresent; omniscient; Goodness and Love, etc……Something is missing, and I have no ill feelings towards God as many Christians posit to anyone who dares to question His true nature, or indeed, His very existence!

      Peace and love to all human kind.

      Dinos Constantinou

  41. Peace and God win every time so be loved says:

    look up child defense mechanism and fight or flight some fly straight to heaven into Gods arms. Love peace joy and mercy though Jesus Christ. Justice is for lawless men which beigning human by nature is evil so the only way to God your maker the one who loves you and attempts to teach you when you let go of him or are super close to bring you closer to him. But those ugly feelings are not God. He our God is perfect and unquestionable as to why things happen I think it is to pick up his chosen few. Have you been chosen ? Well here it is he wants you because his love for you is stronger than you can ever imagine.

    • dinoconstant says:

      “He our God is perfect and unquestionable as to why things happen I think it is to pick up his chosen few.”

      Thank you for your contribution, little bird.

      I think you may have it wrong. If Adam can cause the fall from God’s grace, how is it possible that Christ is unable to save us all? He is part of the Holy Trinity and co-substantial with the Father. The idea that God will pick up His chosen few is elitist, presumptive and reminiscent of the illumanati and the Freemasons.

      Peace and love to all human kind.

      Dinos Constantinou

  42. Tim says:

    I believe that there is a greater purpose for suffering, and I believe that suffering is a deliberate act from God. I also believe that suffering is an attribute of life that is given to us out of love from God. I know this is going to be unpopular, but please hear me out. I’m not going to quote scripture and I’m not going to offer my prayers to people, as I know that is condecending to your beliefs. I AM a Christian, but a modern-Christian, I believe in equality in faiths and I am a strong believer in science when it comes to the way that this plane of existence works, as I believe that these rules are a product of the divine creation. So, without further adieu here it is:

    God created the universe, and all in it, I believe that he set the conditions for it and was the one who flicked the proverbial swithc. I also believe that he created the conditions required for suffering as a product of this creation. I also believe that he did this deliberately.

    When the universe took shape, Earth formed, dinosaurs arrived, died out and then humans arrived, as per God’s plan. We were different to anything else, and we were the first true intervention by God, as we were able to understand suffering to its full extent. Yes an animal can feel suffering, but do they have the full cognitive powers of a human? Probably not. I digress!

    Suffering is a fear that we all have, nobody wants to suffer and nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer. It is suffering and death that accelerate human development. Mothers used to die in childbirth at alarming rates, humans had enough of this form of suffering and developed the means to overcome, means that are being improved on and spread across the globe every day. People used to fight and kill over squabbles and mis-doings, sadly, they still do. So humans created laws, democracy, organised religion, war and justice based on the principles in The Holy Bible (a lot of our laws today still revolve heavily on The Bible, especially in the UK, where I’m from) all as an attempt to overcome this suffering (we’re still working on this one, but we will overcome and sadly, the more people suffer, the harder we will attempt to find lasting peace and then this suffering will end forever. Power, Medicine, Technology, Literature, Writing, Language, Training Animals, Agriculture, Sewage… the list is endless and all of these are results of man trying to avoid suffering.

    I believe that suffering is the greatest fear that we have, and we turn the fear into a tool to overcome. Suffering brings people together and people are greater together. God himself has suffered (not to the extent as millions of humans have had to suffer, but he has suffered, starved, died, been betrayed, begged for his life and he even questioned his faith) and I believe that is important in the analysis of suffering. God’s reaction to his suffering was to set up the Church, and spread the news that we were saved, we had our salvation and that God is good. From then on, God has done all that he needs to do, he has saved us, he has given us life, somewhere to live and has even given us all a ticket to heaven. He has equipped us with all we need to work together and one day overcome every form of earthly suffering, so why should he intervene? A loving father gets more out of watching their children work it out on their own and become their own success, than to create a brat. Now I know that this seems callous, and I apologise I did not mean this to say that complaining about suffering is brattish, but instead meant that it is more worthwhile for both ourselves and God for us to overcome suffering by ourselves. We need that initial incident to understand our suffering better and come up with solutions to these problems. True, this bears little-to-no comfort for those who have suffered greatly, and my heart goes out to every single one of these people, but the “greater good” is a real thing that we as a species are evidence of.

    Again, I apologise for any offence that may be taken from my rather cold statement. But I have asked this question of my own faith countless times. Every time a girl gets attacked, a man dies from an illness or a baby is still-born. I have suffered myself, and I have family members who have suffered greatly. God is a comfort to me through suffering, the whole “well at least I’m going to heaven” really does help, as does talking to him, but I don’t expect God to intervene, and if one day he does, then I’ll be even more grateful.

    Of course, if anyone has a direct quote for me that will shoot my argument right out of the water, I’m willing to listen.

    On a side-note, thank you for posting this thread it has raised questions, and hopefully for some, answers. After all, what good is faith if you can’t question it? It is through questioning my faith that my it gets stronger. I don’t foresee myself losing my faith, as I already have once and I was welcomed back with open arms. We all have or reasons for believing and not believing, and its so refreshing to see this being respected on a messaging board where all parties are invited to talk, and are respected and listened to.

    • sklyjd says:

      All animals have advanced cognitive abilities that have evolved to maintain the survival of the animal and ours are likely to be more complex because our brain is larger.

      It is easy to lump your explanation of God into being a modern Christian, because this is a way to opt out of the traditional doctrine of the religion and is such an easy position to maintain in the face of any debate with non-believers. Correct me if I am wrong but your world view is that God created the universe and everything else and man is now discovering how God’s creation has evolved and existed and this is supposed to be part of God’s plan.

      It is also very easy to shrug off the pain and suffering in the world where 6.3 million children under the age of five died in 2013 from a lack of food and medicine as God’s plan. Please just get on a flight to some of these godforsaken places or Google the internet and take a look at the statistics and pictures for yourself of diseased and thin destitute children dying in what must be an agonising death. You say this suffering will accelerate human development and the more suffering the better because we will try harder to find lasting peace or a solution so it will end forever. How on earth do you believe that?

      It appears religion always paints the picture of perfectness, justification and love when it comes to God who is praised for miracles and goodness but uncommitted to disasters and bad deeds that are often attributed to Satan, and it all fits into God’s so called plan that is unknown by anyone.

      Originally it was believed the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe however science has changed that belief and now is accepted by the major religions who have adapted their doctrine and Biblical interpretations to agree with this. The same is happening with biological evolutionary principles and other related scientific discoveries. According to some interpretations science proves God exists and according to others the scientists are devils with the sole intent of destroying religion.

      An obvious fact we have is the Bible or religious faith can be interpreted by any crack pot to fit their conscience, world view, lifestyle, morals or political issues of the day to make it magically appear that this god in who you have faith in is not just omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient but who loves us so much that if we do not worship him we will suffer damnation with more pain and suffering in hell.

      All I can say is I believe you are seriously deluded.

      • dinoconstant says:

        Well done sklyjd!

        You presented your arguments very well. I’m not sure that it was part of religious belief that the earth was flat, but certainly religious authorities were sure that it was the centre of the universe. Incidentally, if this was the only planet that God gave life to, it should have been easy to create our solar system and nothing else. The rest of the universe would be an extravagance.

        Dinos

      • consultgtf says:

        God is NOT YOUR/Our servant,

        He is God, more than your Manager or even PM, He created all these immortal things, which perishes like vegetable including Humans, You rot and smell bad after a day of your death.

        Obey and have His blessing or Suffer till you Die, but don’t blame anyone,

        You are reason for your sufferings, Not GOD!

        • sklyjd says:

          I do not want a servant or a master. Slavery may be condoned by God and he wants to be master of the universe but I am not going to fall into line.

          Suffer? I know devoted God worshipers who have suffered a lot worse than I have, their prayers did not help them, and we will all stink when we die, even the most holly.

          Of course you may believe suffering is supposed to bring one closer to God anyway, just like Mother Teresa said to her dying poor as she deposited millions into the Vatican’s bank account.

          It is a scientific fact we were not created by any god and I don’t blame anyone or a god but myself for what happens to me, but unfortunately and obviously you depend heavily on your god to get you through life and consequently you are frightened of burning in hell if you do not impress him.

          There is nothing I can do to help you; you are beyond the indoctrination reversal process.

          • consultgtf says:

            Devoted God worshipers suffer? Please do not joke! It is the testing period,

            You test your product before it is released into the market, as it has endure lot of difficult zones, so that is not suffering, it is product validation.

            • sklyjd says:

              Testing period? that has to be the joke. You may be a marketing guru, however are you suggesting the thousands of starving children and the victims of war and terrorism are merely being tested as products by God the creator?

              • consultgtf says:

                Very well said! If you believe that my Father Created this worl, then…
                God never created misery or sufferings?

                Then who created? YOU and ME.

                Adam was given the forbidden fruit by Eve, By snake for Eve to eat the forbidden?
                Who is the decision maker of your life? Your five senses or YOU?

                • sklyjd says:

                  I have lost you a bit on this and do not know where you are going so I will answer that you are meaning if your father (God) never created the world he never caused misery or suffering so who created us and how do I decide anything in my life.

                  This is common of all the animals that walk on our earth. Animal and human Life evolved and just as logic and common sense suggests misery and suffering or happiness and joy will be decided from a number of factors and many of them are beyond any control. Some animals are born disadvantaged to various degrees and may suffer more misery or sufferings.

                  We originally made decisions for our survival in the jungle so to speak and these decisions are made by the best information we have at the time also using all your senses and this is true for all decisions most people will make.

                  Biblical writers obviously could not hide the fact that God would have to have created misery and suffering because you cannot create one side of a coin without the other. Therefore, the creation of a bad angel who became Satan was a clever story and also shows a benevolent God who could have killed him but instead allowed him to live on earth forever. This was probably a bad decision by the writers however, because God has basically lost control of what happens on earth.

                  • consultgtf says:

                    GOD created, No one else can do such marvels!
                    For any misery and sufferings, “Do a RCA”, you will conclude , it was our decision.

                    • sklyjd says:

                      Punishment, sin, death and hell are part of the main messages that most past and present religions are based upon and why do you think this is so?

                      The most logical answer is that without the sins that are conveniently passed on to a newborn baby and the terrifying ordeal of a burning hell rather than the rewards of eternal life nobody would bother to worship any of the gods.

              • Dino says:

                Since the time Jesus walked the earth, is the time our Exodus began. Everything that happened in the exodus, during Moses time is comparible to occurance in every century since then.

                I have faith in God and Jesus, because of my own personal supernatural occurance that no book will ever explain. God bless you And I pray that you might come to believe in a creator that knows way more than we could ever imagine.

                • sklyjd says:

                  To me, your beliefs present no inclination to want to acknowledge evidential facts over fiction, and you will base your truth solely on faith. Therefore, I doubt it will do any good to point out this fact.

                  A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence of Moses and the Exodus and have therefore abandoned the investigation.

                  Supernatural occurrences can only exist inside your head and if they become visual you have symptoms of psychosis.

                  I really hope that one day you read a book about real scientific evidence of life on earth because that holds way more truth than any god could imagine.

                  • Dino says:

                    Haha! You said I’m crazy, in a fancy way! Two thumbs up for that…. Lol. I can assure you I’m not 100% crazy. From one crazy to another (lol) “evidential facts” makes sense, if you are ALL IN, to believe man science, which you’ve gotta know is the same thing as bible thumping. Even archeological/scientific facts, was once fictional, only until someone or a group pinned it as “fact”. It’s all man made! Do you not see that? Cause I do…. And I’m crazy remember?

                    The facts that are taught to society is a form of faith. Everything is man created… BUT!-What created man? I don’t care what anyone says,,, man will never, never,,, never ever, know who created man. I mean, why are you here Blogging? “Bring me to your leader? (lol)”…. your wasting your time arguing with someone/something you don’t believe in- And if you tell me your just bored or simply just hate believers, then I am far better off a crazy Jesus freak vs. not.

                    God bless you. I believe because we had this interaction; something supernatural, might occur in your life to encourage you to question the true purpose beyond “religion” of the truths about the Bible. Your life will surely improve and this I pray in the name of Jesus Crist! You have a wonderful weekend:)

                    • sklyjd says:

                      You may believe someone like myself who agrees with over 97% of the worlds scientists is crazy, however I do not hold to the fact that they have got it all wrong or that there are what you call “man made” science or conspiracy theories attached to them.

                      Science is “Similar to bible thumping” you say?? I don’t think so…they could not be more opposite than black and white because facts have nothing to do with faith, facts are the reality, on our planet anyway.

                      You claim “I don’t care what anyone says,,, man will never, never,,, never ever, know who created man.” I thought you knew this answer, are you following a new interpretation of the Bible?

                      Man is always getting closer to discovery regarding the origin of life on Earth and the chances of it being any supernatural god is very slim and in fact probably zero.

                      I am neither bored or hate believers as I know many, I am blogging people like you to help in some small way to save the children or in fact anybody from superstitious based ideologies and indoctrination. I can just hope that you are not teaching children science.

                      In my view, your reasoning about science is similar to the flat earth believers and the people who think the moon landing did not take place or the holocaust deniers, and sorry to break this to you but it does tend to put you into the loony category, so maybe I should understand where you are coming from and provide sympathy instead of criticism.

                      I appreciate your good will and blessings but I do not expect something supernatural to make me want to believe as you do, so help me God, excuse the pun. I also wish you a great weekend.

                  • consultgtf says:

                    “A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence of Moses and the Exodus and have therefore abandoned the investigation.”
                    DID THEY FIND ‘HOW A HUMAN CELL, IS DESIGNED? In different tissues, for a different operations? When YOU can’t find out, about a single cell, then how can YOU, humans conclude, No evidence, No …
                    Think it over, again!

                    • sklyjd says:

                      You have asked, “DID THEY FIND ‘HOW A HUMAN CELL, IS DESIGNED?”

                      The cell contains various structural components to allow it to maintain life which are known as organelles. All the organelles are suspended within a gelatinous matrix, the cytoplasm, which is contained within the cell membrane. One of the few cells in the human body that lacks almost all organelles are the red blood cells.

                      The main organelles are as follows: cell membrane, endoplasmic reticulum, Golgi apparatus, lysosomes, mitochondria, nucleus, peroxisomes, microfilaments and microtubules.

                      A quick look around the web and I think you will agree they have human cells fairly well sussed out.

                      The one thing that puzzles me the most is that people such as yourself cannot acknowledge common plain and simple facts that involve over a hundred years of scientific investigation in some areas and are a major part of the reality of life on this planet, just as the unquestionable fact that most of us understand gravity and realise the earth is a sphere.

                      I can only deduct that religious indoctrination of certain people is not only an extremely emotional process, it is these emotional states of mind that control and block the natural processes of logical evaluation, simple consideration and deduction.

                      The religions before Christianity well understood the power of religious indoctrination and of course it has been improved upon and has been commonly used in religious and political ideologies in recent times.

  43. dinoconstant says:

    “I believe that there is a greater purpose for suffering, and I believe that suffering is a deliberate act from God. I also believe that suffering is an attribute of life that is given to us out of love from God.”

    Thank you for your contribution, Tim.

    I’m not sure that suffering serves any purpose, but it should be unlikely that to be a deliberate act from God, if He is entirely benevolent? If you want to argue for a purpose for suffering, it might be that Satan tries to divert us from God. Also, we should have no fear of suffering if we believed that it serves a greater purpose from God.

    Suffering abuse from a parent during childhood often leads to abusive behaviour to others when the person gets older. How does that accelerate human development?

    It’s been suggested by some theologians that it’s an ‘unconscious’ fear that there is no after-life that leads us to transgress! If there is no after-life, then we cannot be punished if we trespass against others in our pursuit for pleasure, power, adulation, etc.

    I don’t think ‘our Father’ watches us lovingly as so-called Christian nations wage war in the middle east against predominantly Muslim nations, resulting in the deaths of many innocent people, including children.

    I think that human kind has shown the greatest amount of cruelty to other animals, including our own species, because we can – we have the technology. There are many animal species that appear to show much less aggression to others within their species. However, it’s too easy think this without knowing the truth and a link below shows how male dolphins tried to kill a new-born calf:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20150716-dolphins-that-kill-their-young

    I think that it’s unworthy of us as a species to be closed-minded or dogmatic about our beliefs.

    Peace and love to all human kind,

    Dinos Constantinou

  44. Mary says:

    God gives us free will, so the man that raped me as a four year old should burn in hell. But if he asks for forgiveness and accepts God as his savior, he’ll join God in heaven. God didn’t make this evil man do this, it was his free will to act in such a horrific act. I was a small child! I didn’t do anything to deserve what this man did to me! Why didn’t God protect me? He formed me in his image in my mothers womb. He knew me before I was born. So why? Why didn’t he reach out and take me away from the situation? Or why didn’t he just let me die? He could have sent someone to help me. He didn’t! God so loved the little children! As an adult, fifty plus years later, I believe in our God! I attend church. I pray and I read the bible. But no one has a good answer to why God would ever let this happen to an innocent child. I won’t and can’t believe that there is not an answer! Not just any answer, but The Correct Answer.

    • Sorry that happened to you, Mary.

      • dinoconstant says:

        Mary says, “But no one has a good answer to why God would ever let this happen to an innocent child. I won’t and can’t believe that there is not an answer! Not just any answer, but The Correct Answer.”

        Thank you, Mary, for sharing your experience with us.

        I must first state my position that I’m not an atheist, nor an agnostic. I have a strong suspicion that there is a force that we call God, and that ‘believers’ assign to Him the attributes: omnipotence; omnipresence; omniscience; goodness; justness; etc. Enlightened believers understand that we cannot find the ‘Correct Answer’ to your question of ‘why God would ever let some one rape a four year old innocent child’, nor indeed, allow for the suffering and death of all innocent children. Nor can another human being tell you the answer; only God can reveal this to you personally.

        I hold a different view which is that God does not have all the attributes assigned to Him listed above. The physical evidence is that there may be a Vital Force that brings life and all consequent biological phenomena to organic matter, according to Vitalistic Theory – see below

        Vitalistic Theory: The view that life, and all consequent biological phenomena, are due to a ‘Vital Force’ [source: A Dictionary of Science].

        If God was omnipotent, He could control the Life Forms that He brings into existence. If He is benevolent and without malice, there is no need to ‘create’ parasitic organisms that disable or kill their hosts, including us, who are meant to have been created in the image of the Holy Trinity [Let Us make man in Our image…..from Genesis 1:26].

        Without deluding ourselves, we cannot excuse God for these parasites since there are those that can be just as lethal to some of the smallest creatures that are very unlikely to have ‘Free Will’ –

        http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/watch-parasitic-fungus-erupt-ants-head

        It’s not that God punishes us for our wrong doings; it’s that He has an infinite imagination and a propensity to bring into existence a humanly unimaginable number and type of organisms. After that, He lets nature take its course.

        We humans are capable of the worst cruelties and the best altruistic behavior, but altruistic behavior is not exclusive to human beings! I have included just one link of many below:

        http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

        We do not need to blame God for all the injustice that exists; we need to understand His true nature and examine the empirical evidence, honestly.

        Peace and love to all,

        Dinos Constantinou
        (dinoconstant)

    • Holly Kennedy says:

      I’m so sorry Mary. Of course you want answers and I can see that you’re searching as you came here. You may find more peace by seeing the beauty of creation (my belief, I think), rather than the threats in the bible. I personally did not find peace at church or in the bible, but just walking in the woods, feeling love, and knowing that I don’t even know you but would hug you so tight right now if I could.

  45. Jessica Brutcher says:

    We are so quick to turn on God. People want free will but don’t want to do everything God’s way. They are selfish. Then when something unfortunate happens we blame him. We need to examine ourselves. I lost my baby too. She was my first child and was stillborn. I prayed for this child. I was shocked when I found out she had passed. I was very angry, but I didn’t blame God because I have not always put him first. It taught me to never take anything for granted. Even if it is an answered prayer. God does give us gifts, but we have to remember, when he does give a gift, he doesn’t tell us how long we will have that gift.

    • sklyjd says:

      Sorry to hear about your baby. Theists are fast to acknowledge God as the cause of good events so it is logic that he be blamed for the bad. The truth is you will have good and bad things happen with or without any god. Atheists have the same ratio of good and bad things happen as religious people do, so in reality a god does not control what happens to you, therefore, you can blame God, Batman or the Easter Bunny but it makes no difference because you just have to be able to pick yourself up and get on with life.

  46. jmcmeyer1 says:

    Jim Meyer
    5.5.2016
    Will God Answer Your Prayers?
    “The death of a child is a tragic loss. Yet, every year, almost 11 million children die — that is, 30,000 children a day — before their fifth birthday. Most of these children live in developing countries and die from a disease or a combination of diseases that can be prevented or treated by existing inexpensive means. [The number only increases when the Western developed countries are added.] Sometimes, the cause is as simple as a lack of antibiotics for treating pneumonia or of oral rehydration salts for diarrhea. Malnutrition contributes to over half these deaths.
    These kids didn’t die in school shootings. For whatever reason, if any of them had died that way, you would have heard about that on the front page of your newspaper. But these 30,000 kids that I’m writing about who died today (as well as a different 30,000 kids who died yesterday, and yet another 30,000 who will die tomorrow) their deaths could EASILY be prevented. As the United Nations link below at page 18 also notes: “Most of these children…die from a disease or a combination of diseases that can be prevented or treated by existing INEXPENSIVE means. Sometimes, the cause is as simple as a lack of antibiotics for treating pneumonia or of oral rehydration salts for diarrhea. Malnutrition contributes to over half these deaths.” [http://unstats.un.org/unsd/mi/pdf/MDG%20Book.pdf]”
    No one, except someone with neurotic or pathological issues, would ever say, “It was a good thing those 11 million children died last year or 30,000 children die each day.” That is unconsciousable. The literal torment and suffering that some children must endure, along with their siblings and parents, is unquestionably horrifying and immoral. ‘Why me’ is an often asked question or ‘why my son or daughter’? Where were my prayers?
    I have listed some reasons why God-fearing people believe God permits this disturbing and immoral suffering. 1. “These children may rebel against God, so he took them early to save them.” If God gives children a choice or free will, what good is it to allow them to die before they make their choice or exercise their free will? Why not simply kill every child or person before they revolt against this God? Why should they be punished for exercising their so-called ‘God given free will?’ This is totalitarian. 2. “God is able to bring a greater good out of tragedy.” Where is the greater good while watching the child die a slow painful death? Why is good more valuable only if accompanied with evil? Why can’t good be good enough by itself? If you have no choice but to do good what’s wrong with that? If you wanted to do things that you somehow could not do, yes, it may be frustrating. However, if you didn’t even want those things to begin with it would be no problem.
    Augustine says suffering isn’t a real thing. It is simply ‘a falling away from God.’ Augustine said; … “for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil…For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? It is similar to darkness being the absence of light.” [Augustine. “What is Called Evil in the Universe is but the Absence of Good.”] To tell a mother that her child is not really suffering, rather, experiencing the absence of God’s mercy or goodness with a purpose in mind resonates as hollow, cruel and malicious to a grieving parent. Where is the greater good for the child?
    If I were to ask simple questions that only require ‘yes, you may/can’ or ‘no you may not’ I think my chance of getting an answer would be the same as flipping a coin; heads I can and tails I cannot or 50%. Plus, the advantage of the coin flip is I don’t have to wait till ‘God knows when’ for an answer. Any question more complex, just use your own reason and judgment. Where was God during WWI, WWII, Spanish influenza, the Plague of the 14th century in Europe, tsunamis, Crusades, Inquisition, Genocide in Burma, Rwanda, Congo, Dar Fur, Sudan, Tiananmen Square in 1989, The American Civil War, Spanish Civil War, Australian Aborigines, Native Americans in the 16th-21st centuries, East Timor, Vietnam War, ISIS, 2003 invasion of Iraq, Armenian Genocide 1915-18, Wars going back to 5000 C.E. in Europe, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc. Oh yea, what about cancer, heart attacks, deformed babies, murders, child sexual abuse (Jehovah’s Witnesses), diabetes, HIV/AIDS, malaria, unclean drinking water, suicides, epilepsy? Yes, please visit a children’s cancer hospital and tell them/ parents that God has a loving plan for the intense suffering their children are going through. Really, try telling them God cares as they watch their little babies die a slow agonizing death. I’ll stop here, it’s getting depressing.
    Where was God; nowhere. He is nothing more than a man-made construct. Religions have made trillions of dollars over their sales pitch while the commoners wonder the streets aimlessly. Maybe we need to rephrase the question: Is there a God to answer prayers? I don’t claim any special knowledge, but I just cannot make myself believe He is. In addition, I cannot make myself believe in a square circle or that 2+2=5 or that the totality of the Universe is just for us.
    Again, with no God, there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature is indifferent and uncaring about our existence. This is not necessarily appealing, but it is the truth. What I see in all the above and more is exactly what I would expect having arrived on this planet and developed through evolution to become homo-sapiens some 200,000 years ago. I would certainly expect to see things enormously different [better] if there was a God, however, there isn’t. It’s simply wishful thinking. I am certainly not trying to advocate for a Darwinian lifestyle. We have made enormous progress as a species but our time is running out. I don’t like the fact that I will die but I cannot deny it either. Part of life involves dying. It’s all around us.

    • Pan says:

      Would you then rather believe that there is nothing for those children at the end of a horrible, excruciating existence. Nothing… their suffer was for nothing… They where then only born to suffer on earth and die. That is it? That their existence never mattered or made any difference to anyone? Is that not even worse than seeing a child die? To believe that that child’s life did not matter and that he or she was only placed on earth to suffer? Yes the world might be harsh but we have the power to change the world. We have the intelligence to save the world. Yet we don’t. Even if you don’t believe in God and there are millions of people who don’t. It does not change the fact that we can change the world if we so choose but humanity seems to like seeing others suffer and humanity will never stand together to change this. We have blundered, we have let a world exists where children suffer. Mark 9:42
      “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”
      It is our fault that children die because we as adults have forgotten that we are suppose to look out for them. I’m from a 3rd world country, we pour so much money into taxes, taxes that are suppose to be used to feed and clothe the needy, to provide medical care to the sick, to pay for children’s upbringing. Instead our government uses this money at their pleasure to line their pockets and build expensive houses. Is this God’s fault? No it is our fault for electing a government that could be corrupted. So the children suffer the consequences of our choices. If all of humanity could stop their lust for money and immorality then we could move forward in peace and save those in need. We are capable of such great good if we could be selfless…

      • consultgtf says:

        The sufferings are not for the children,
        IT IS FOR THE PARENTS AND GRAND PARENTS, as THE child is suffering for the sins committed by these, so called matured people, (Is anyone ready to change to save their children and sometimes, grand children?)

        Ask any Elders, the will agree!

      • sklyjd says:

        Your last sentence “We are capable of such great good if we could be selfless…”
        This is an impossibility and we cannot change the world if we choose, nor is it possible humanity will stand together to rid the world of suffering. Since the beginning of cave men corruption, greed, violence and all unlawful acts have been a natural part of human behaviour within our communities. We are animals after all, our DNA and very advanced brains are always subject to scientific investigation but as much as we know how to be good people and love our neighbours the opposite is also true.
        Given the odds, any government is going to have some corruption, even if it was not true, do you believe they would use every dollar to save starving children and lower their own status from what they are accustomed too?
        We have the desire to own expensive things and at the same time a desire to donate to a charity or provide some food to the starving but even the most Christian person in our world is not going to sell his or her possessions to save some third world child’s life.
        If God really created humans he knew already what would happen, but because he does not exist outside of the human brain we should all try to face reality of the life we have and do the best we can to survive as we have been doing since we walked the earth and what we are designed to do. We must also accept the good fortune that we were born in a rich country and where we have the capability to at least help the suffering and the poor.


        https://polldaddy.com/js/rating/rating.js

  47. Darrell says:

    Its about time.Someone who thinks like me. Why did God let my mother who was so God fearing and kind die of a massive heart attack in front of me?

    • Holly Kennedy says:

      Dear Darrell, I’m so very sorry that you lost your mother and saw the whole thing. How devastating for you. There’s a really good website called Griefnet and they have different categories such as parent loss, child loss, etc. and you become a part of a group who are in the same boat who listen and support each other. I went there when my 23 yr. old son died and it helped so much just to have people understand and care and to talk to. Or I would be happy to email with you any time. Just let me know. I miss my son so much and I know you miss your mom. I believe she misses you too but knows you’ll be together again. Not necessarily because of “God” but well, just because I believe that our souls still exist. May you find peace with this incredibly difficult grief. Sending you much love. A Mom.

  48. jerry says:

    Why does God allow evil to happen? If He really does? I thought Lord God aould stop all Evil!

  49. Man of God says:

    One thing U can tell He is God He’s not a person… He knows everything… He’s full of Grace n Truth..Trust In Him… Jesus is the King or Messiah not on this world… Life after death.. So He Came as a light tht lighten evry men came in those world… How must people live… He is the Way the Truth n the Life… Its true… We All need Love n Peace n in Hell there is No Love n Peace… I Once work for The Evil one but I’ve been rescue or salvated By God Himself under the kimdom of darkness… I was a senior… So please people of God don’t be mislead by Evil.. Remember your Covenant between u n God.. Love You people of Good.

    • sklyjd says:

      And your evidence is?

      If you go back in history you will find many gods have been worshipped by the indoctrinated ancient people just as you are today. Of course the first thing you will notice how all the religions have some similar stories and characters, much like Islam and Christianity has comparative events and individuals.

      Gods were always the answer for natural events and the sun was represented by most of the gods in ancient times. It was not until modern science from over the last 150 years could explain the natural weather events and evolution of our planet and all life. Therefore, the need for gods and supernatural events to explain scientific events can be discarded.

      If you are going to dedicate your life and I assume your death to a single god I suggest you do a bit of research because at the moment there are many gods or at least another one or two gods being worshiped by a sizeable following on this planet in the same way as you worship your god and claim to be the one true god. You need to bet on the right one or all of them.

      • dinoconstant says:

        And your evidence is?

        If you go back in history you will find many gods have been worshipped by the indoctrinated ancient people just as you are today. Of course the first thing you will notice how all the religions have some similar stories and characters, much like Islam and Christianity has comparative events and individuals.

        Your piece was well thought out and written, sklyjd.

        I have been surprised by the number of people I’ve met and got to know, who are intelligent, hold down demanding jobs, then abdicate their intelligence and logic for a belief in their God, whom they defend as good and just against all the available evidence. If the God they believe in is omnipotent, omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipresent or panentheistic (everything within God), then such a God would not require worship. Those that do worship God do so for their own benefit; to belong to church communities that give them a support and social environment, for example.

        The only logical argument for belief in a God of creation is that of intelligent design of the universe and the cause of the big bang about 14 billion years ago. However, to extend this and believe that the Holy Bible is God inspired, inerrant in its entirety, and describes the creator of the universe, just goes beyond reason and human intuition. Where is the evidence that God somehow controlled all the words written and compiled into the Bible? Why would a God of goodness create so many micro-organisms that cause suffering to animals that have not sinned as we are said to have done? Was The Flood truly world-wide, saving only the inhabitants of The Ark?

        The Bible is full of contradictions that are rationalised by those who must believe in its authority. No doubt, the following passage from Isaiah, which suggests that their God created evil or calamity, can be explained away:

        Isaiah 45:7
        HEB: שָׁל֖וֹם וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה
        NAS: and creating calamity; I am the LORD
        KJV: peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
        INT: well-being and creating calamity I am the LORD

        The extract was taken from material from the link below:

        http://biblehub.com/hebrew/ra_7451.htm

        Dinos

        • sklyjd says:

          I agree with all that you say.

          At work today I got into a conversation with a Catholic guy. A nice man but he insisted I should read this book he gave me called “Heaven is real but so is hell” written by some self-proclaimed mouth piece of God called Vassula Ryden. I read the first few pages and honestly I could not decide if it was a fictional horror story or a book of comedy.

          And as you say intelligent and successful people who are far smarter than I am actually believe this stuff. I think when you read this rubbish it makes you realise just how stupid some people can be. I also think it is dangerous because it is mostly about God heaping destruction on the planet when he returns to earth due to the sinners and atheists not worshipping him. Of course they are seriously deluded as they have been since the beginning of human invented gods.

          The danger is many of these nuts always think God has a plan even when 30,000 children die every day from lack of food and basic medicine. I believe they are mentally challenged.

          Budda, Krishna, Odysseus, Romulus, Dionysus, Heracles, Glycon, Zoroaster/Zarathustra, Attis of Phrygia, Horus all did similar things before the Christian God copied them such as virgin births, walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, were crucified, descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Read more here:
          http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

          • dinoconstant says:

            Thank you sklyjd for your reply and the link to listverse.com. I found it much easier to read than the link that I posted about resurrections that occurred before Christ’s.

            I think believers in God, have assigned to God, attributes which cannot be substantiated by evidence and logic. This is what Epicurus had to say about God:

            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God.

            This is somewhat simplistic since God may be able to prevent evil but is unwilling to do so, because God may be both malevolent and benevolent, just as we can be with our deeds. If God is infinite, then the universe and everything in it should be within God – panentheism. Therefore, evil, or the capacity to be destructive, would be within God, both directly and through the actions of God’s creatures.

            You are right to suggest that there is danger in the beliefs of fundamentalists. The idea that there will be a Judgement Day has enabled ‘end-timers’ to wage wars like those in Iraq and Syria believing that they are part of the process that will bring it about. It doesn’t matter to them how many innocent women and children die as collateral damage, since good, deserving people will be admitted to God’s Kingdom, anyway. Any undesirable events can be easily justified or explained differently by those who believe in God, and that God is good and just, and that we are inherently bad due to Adam and Eve’s original sins.

            God should have known that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit that gave them knowledge of good and evil as God is said to be omniscient, so why put the tree bearing that fruit in the garden? Maybe the gift of free will to us humans defies God’s omniscience, so we are an experiment?

            Dinos

            • sklyjd says:

              I appreciate your comments and links and have to agree with the facts as you and very few people seem to be able to do. The most damage to society I find is Indoctrination into an ideology that always involves a power based doctrine to rule the life of people. Indoctrination is a very powerful process as we can attest through Nazism and past communist regimes and today through communist North Korea.

              Indoctrinated political or religious persons can be from a moderate to an extremely emotional state of mind so immersed within an ideology to the extent that it can and has through history taken precedence over their own families and in some cases many other families. We know this has happened recently in extreme political examples such as North Korean Kim Jong-un killing his uncle and aunt, religions such as scientology and the Exclusive Brethren who have literally destroyed families and these are about as close as an example I can get to identify the hold indoctrination has. Therefore, you can easily see how and why most of these individuals cannot see anything beyond their extremely narrow scopes of belief.

              The young vulnerable children aged from birth to about 15 years old that are indoctrinated today by what I see as fanatical religious people who think they are doing Gods work is the crying shame within our society and should be outlawed as a serious crime. We rightly prosecute sexual predators who psychologically damage children’s minds and we protect them from harm in every way possible yet we allow their indoctrination into an ideology that will remove the fundamental right for these children to decide for themselves when they see fit to do so. I understand many people died fighting for our individual and collective freedoms so this is unacceptable from any religion in our free world.

      • dinoconstant says:

        Heracles, much-beloved son of Zeus, (the supreme god who reigned in Olympus over all the other gods of Greek Mythology), was resurrected after suffering a cruel death. Below is a link:

        https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080513184229AASwaB1

        There are many stories of resurrections detailed in the second link below:

        http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/library/myth.shtml

        Dinos

  50. Melissa says:

    Why? Because there is no god. I’d never try to stop any of you from being religious as that’s a choice you are allowed to make, just as we atheists are allowed to not follow your beliefs, but those of you who worship a gold that allows horrible things such as starvation, rape, incest, and murder should probably look for another god to worship. Humans have been creating gods for many thousands of years, looooong before the bible was written, so there are plenty of gods to choose from. It makes sense to choose a god who at least has “valid” reasons for “allowing” horrible things to happen.

    Regardless of which god you choose to worship, I wish you the best.

    • dinoconstant says:

      Hi Melissa!

      I liked your comments:

      Why? Because there is no god. I’d never try to stop any of you from being religious ….

      There is another explanation for the ‘horrible’ things that happen. The Christian God may not have all the qualities: omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence (or panentheism – everything within God), and wholly good. Epicurus (341 – 270 BC), put it this way:

      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

      As for the origin of evil, we should consider what the KJV of the Bible says:

      Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

      7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

      Peace and consideration to all readers,
      Dinos

    • Holly Kennedy says:

      This God not only ‘allows’ terrible things; he demands these terrible things in the bible. This is why I don’t understand religious people worshiping the Christian god or any other god found in a book.

      • consultgtf says:

        Kennedy, Can you please list the, so called TERRIBLE thing demanded? Is it, Worship only God, not his creations or Honour your Father and Mother, because tomorrow you will also become parent or finally, Be Loyal to your partner as you would expect?.

        Which one is most TERRIBLE?

  51. Lindsey says:

    I think it’s because God gave us free will.

    • Anonymous says:

      Hi Lindsey!

      Maybe if we all had the same perceptions of the kind of Being God is there may be some point to your very short statement. Anyone who thinks about the nature of God in a rational way is drawn to question how a Being, said to have the attributes of omnipotence, omniscience (knowing all, past present and future), omnipresence or panentheism (everything, including the universe, contained within God), and goodness itself, can create sentient beings like us, but is somehow unable to prevent our suffering?

      Free will is hardly an answer as it suggests that this God created us knowing that some would do bad deeds to others, or, He is somehow unaware of what we will do because we are completely free. If He did grant us such a freedom then it suggests that He is not omniscient, or, we are some kind of experiment, and He renders Himself unaware of what we will do until after we do it!

      Also, you have to ask why a person who is abused as a child is much more likely to become an adult who abuses children than one who is treated with respect? What happened to that person’s free will? If it always requires a bad choice to do bad things and a good choice to do good things, then we should not be designed to learn bad or even good behavior! We should not be so susceptible to programmed or learned behavior, especially bad behavior.

      Dinos

  52. Steve says:

    An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser——if he didn’t create us the wouldn’t we also miss out on all good things people do also? For all the evil in this world is there not more good than evil that occurs in most people’s lives? One tragedy occurs but what about the hundreds of good moments that occur before and after?
    why not give children a greater level of protection outside of Eden? —-when God created the world everything was created in a pattern. Scientists see it in nature. Trees, animals, humans, plants, even bacteria/microorganisms have a beginning, lifespan and an end and will follow those base patterns.

    #3 and #4 I do not agree with the argument that the question implies.
    #5 isn’t free will a moral restriction and the other things you mentioned physical restrictions? i don’t understand how you are correlating one with the other?
    #6 is a horrible argument. Whoever told you that, I believe, is horribly wrong.
    #7 there are far too many scenarios and far too many people in this world with far too many situations to determine whether or not something has had a greater purpose in their life or not. How can you assume it hasn’t?
    #8 is not a reason why God would allow children to die, it is the common trait of empathy that people share when they go through similar circumstances. Tragedy of any kind can bring people together. #9 if heaven is an eternity long, and this life, at most, is 120 years long, how can anything that happens in this life be worse than the good things you will experience in eternity with God? In this question you are posing it from the point of view of the person experiencing it, not the ones they have left behind. In eternity it will be so joyous an experience the bible says that the former things will not even be remembered. #10 that is something that is difficult to understand for people who don’t know God but for us as Christians it is life. God is above human capabilities and understanding and there will be things in life we don’t understand, but you forgot #11 & 12.

    My conclusion: #11 While this doesn’t help the people left behind, for the child who dies they go to heaven. They don’t have to worry about anything anymore. They are at peace and #12 if you are on your way to heaven you will see them again. what an awesome thought. Anyway, that is my take on it and God bless

  53. Tammie says:

    I always wonder this. I see a tragedy strike and imagine the faces of my children. If a child had to die for whatever reason of God’s, why not a quick, painless death? Of all things, or children should be most protected by us and God, from suffering and fear and immeasurable pain. I don’t understand. I went from being raised religious (Mormon) to being a agnostic adult, then Christianity, baptist, and non denominational. Now I just don’t know.

  54. Pan says:

    Just because God is not what you want Him to be does not mean that He is not God or that He does not exist. Just because God does not do what you want him to do, does not mean that He does not know best. We are human and can’t even begin to understand or know why things are the way that they are.

    If you did not know what would happen if you plant a seed in the ground, would you still plant a seed in the ground?
    Would that not kill the seed?
    If you did not know, that might be what you would think.

    • dinoconstant says:

      Hello Pan!

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

      This is a forum for people to exchange views. Contributors show a comprehensive range from full disbelief, through neutrality, to full and unconditional belief in God.

      It is natural that people who think about God should wonder how it is that He is somehow not as described. The views of all human beings are equally valid and it’s better if they are respected. Being dogmatic about God is unhelpful, since, as you point out, we do not know.

      Assuming God does exist, we have every right as rational and curious human beings, to question if the attributes used to describe Him, are compatible or contradictory. We are not playing God; we are expressing our humanity.

      If we choose to believe in God, which faith should we follow – the Christian, Islamic, Jewish, or other? Which is the best way to worship God? If we choose the Christian faith, which sect is best? Below is a link:

      http://www.seiyaku.com/reference/denominations-list.html

      Why should we believe? If for fear of eternal damnation for our disbelief; we are merely servants. If for passage to heaven; we are merely merchants. Only for love of God are we true Christian practitioners, but how many churches or religious leaders preach this without mentioning hell and heaven?

      I’m sorry that I don’t understand your analogy about the seed. I think I would plant it BECAUSE I don’t know what would happen, and I’m curious enough to try it, to find out. I find the direct approach is a better way to communicate – it’s less likely to lead to misunderstandings.

      Peace and love to all,

      Dinos

      • Pan says:

        I did not mean to offend in any way at all. I understand that people are allowed to have their own believes and make their own choices. As I have said many times before on here is that, I do not judge, I merely give my point of view. With regards to the seed, it’s as simple as, if you did not know what its purpose was, would you know what to do with it? You would have to learn from somewhere that it must be planted so that it can grow. You would not just know out of nowhere.

        I have been reading through all these peoples thoughts and it seems that most here believe that God can only be good and if He is not the way that they want Him to be then why believe in Him, right? I have said this before, God can also be wrathful, vengeful and jealous. He is the only one who can judge humanity, if you believe what I believe. He might find you righteous according to your actions on earth and someone who says they believe and does not live their life accordingly will be damned.

        Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

        Romans 2:12-15
        “12 All who sin apart from the Law will also perish apart from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.

        14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15 since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.”

        People put God into this little box that they believe that He is suppose to be and then they are disappointed when He does not meet their expectations. But they never truly believed in God for if they did they would not make an all powerful being box bound.

        Why choose Christianity? Well simply because it teaches good morals, puts love above all else and is a forgiving religion. It is not specified for only a certain type of person but for all. It also teaches us to be selfless and to not judge others. Ultimately, God wants us to be good and to treat each other with kindness, respect and love. To not simply want everything but to give everything and in doing so we will never be lacking.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hello Pan!

          Thank you for your response.

          Please understand that I was not offended by your post on June 17, although I could easily see how other readers could be – those who have suffered without a satisfactory explanation of why they did, e.g. girls who were raped by their fathers. If you were the mother and you saw your husband about to rape your daughter would you not try to stop him?

          If we are expected to live Godly lives, then we should expect at least as much from God Himself. If He is truly omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and good, then He could and should prevent unnecessary suffering. We know this simply by using the intelligence we were endowed with.

          There is no need to imagine that God may have a grand plan and that we mere mortals cannot see things from His perspective – this is putting ourselves in a box! If you believe that God has revealed Himself in the scriptures, then, as you’ve said, you will find Him showing that He is wrathful, vengeful and jealous, but these are human traits, not Godly ones.

          We can criticize what people say about God, without being blasphemous, because we know the difference between right and wrong, even if we do not live entirely good lives ourselves. Most of us know that to have children is to take on much responsibility for their care and protection, not to punish them unduly, as God is said to have done to Jews and Gentiles, according to the scriptures.

          Eastern Orthodox Christianity teaches that our nature has remained good because we were created in the image of the Trinity, which is wholly good. It’s no wonder, then, that there are people who do by nature what the Law requires. Also, Christ redeems all, without exception – nobody is damned. It does not follow that E. Orthodox Christians do what they like. Their message is more positive, and they do not do good deeds to avoid eternal damnation, but through love of God and humanity.

          I’m still puzzled about the seed. I would not just know out of nowhere what to do with it; nor would it appear from nowhere! I might observe that seeds fall to the ground from trees and plants and deduce that there is a good purpose for this. However, you have not explained how this relates to our knowledge or lack of knowledge of God? Surely, we learn from empirical evidence and experience?

          Peace and love to all,

          Dinos

          • Pan says:

            As I have said I do not mean to offend, I myself have had a very hard live, my father was a soldier and did some horrible things in the name of his country because of this he drank a lot, he abused my brother, my mother and myself. On one of these nights where he became so drunk he hung my mother by her feet from the 10th story from the flats balcony where we lived. I was 4 my brother was 6, both me and my brother tried to stop him, he knocked my brother unconscious and he kicked me away. I started crying and he pulled my mother back up and started apologising. There where some days that we thought that we would die, but we never did. He was not a bad man but the horrible things that he had done warped his mind ultimately. He passed away when I was 6, he never amended his will, my grandparents took everything from us, we where left with nothing. My mothers parents wrote her off when she married my father and she had no family that we could turn to. My fathers parents never wanted my father to marry my mother either and never saw us as part of the family. We had no one to go to.People from a Christian church helped us, my mother worked hard to provide for us and we started going to church, none of it was ever easy, there where nights when she would not eat so that we could. But every time we where faced with the most difficult of situations my mother would pray and ask for help. We received our help, a car was donated to my mother through the church so that she could get to work. Things where going well and we where happy. My mother then ran into someone that she knew from her past. We stopped going to church, my mother spend less time with God and more time with this man, after two years they got married. This man abused me and my brother yet again, we where sent off to boarding school and eventually, my mother caught this man in be with another man, she was heart broken. She was trying to divorce this man, but he would not have it. We where stuck in a very bad situation again, things where going horribly, my mother tried to commit suicide. She was saved by one of her friends. The man that she married tried to use this against her to take me and my brother away from her. Once again the people who had helped us in the binning helped us. My mom was granted her divorce, we started going to church again, things where slowly getting better again. My mother never wanted another man in her life after that, but then she met a man that loved God with all his heart, this man adopted me and my brother, he never wanted any other children because we where enough. He is the best father that I could ever have asked for. Even if I look back now I have no hate for any of the people in my past. Every time that we truly needed help God was there.

            If all this had not happened, we would have never met my dad, it made my faith stronger, not weaker. I was one of those children who suffered, I had cracked bones and black an blue bruises every week. I have ever right to question God but I don’t need to. I know that if I did not have the life I had then I would never be where I am now,that also does not mean that because my mom turned away from God that she was punished. She made the wrong decisions and ignored warnings from people who had her best interests at heart. We all suffered the consequences of that.

            “There is no need to imagine that God may have a grand plan and that we mere mortals cannot see things from His perspective – this is putting ourselves in a box! If you believe that God has revealed Himself in the scriptures, then, as you’ve said, you will find Him showing that He is wrathful, vengeful and jealous, but these are human traits, not Godly ones.”
            You are mistaken to say that we would put ourselves in a box, on the contrary I am able to help more people and also understand their pain and relate. I have extreme companion for those in need and would not have that if I had lead an easy life. “but these are human traits,” We where created in Gods image, meaning they are also traits that describe God.

            “and they do not do good deeds to avoid eternal damnation,” see this is the key, you should do good because, it is good. Not because you fear what will happen if you don’t. You should want to be good for your own accord. So as to not inflict suffering on others that is what God wants.

            As for the seed you would have to study the tree to find out that the seed has to be in the ground to grow or someone would have to teach you. If there are things we do not understand we are not meant to just except them but ask and we will be answered, seek and we will find.God also wants us to search for Him to learn as much as possible to find Him.

  55. Craig says:

    In nature, a wounded or handicapped creature soon dies, and their suffering comes to an end.
    Where the balance of suffering and pleasure is such that the suffering far outweights the pleasure, then the rational solution would be to end it all.

    In our modern times we seek to prolong life at any cost – even when we are only prolonging a life of complete suffering.

    So one way to end suffering is simply to seek death

    Another way to end suffering is to seek healling, if it is available.

    Another way to end suffering would be to dissociate oneself from the suffering through mental effort – for example a trance state.

    The problem of evil is actually the problem of pain, and anything that can reduce pain will be part of the solution.

    So, whatever world God has created, there are still choices that we can make to stop suffering.

    • dinoconstant says:

      Hello Pan!

      What a conversation we are having and thank you for sharing your grim life experiences.

      As I said in my previous post, it is a great responsibility to raise children. I do not mean to cause offence, but it wasn’t helpful of your mother to introduce you to further grief with another man from her past. Also, you suffered enough from your biological father and there was no need for further suffering to shape you into the person you are.

      The good experience you have received from the church that you attend and from your current father may be more important in shaping who you are than all the grief you suffered. The church that you attend, is it evangelical? Do you believe that the Bible is God breathed and inerrant in its entirety? I congratulate your church for the ways they have helped you and your family with their good deeds, e.g. donating a car to your mother to help her to find work.

      Please understand that you have not explained how the seed relates to God. You still have not explained what you wanted to say about God in relation to the seed, and that is why I wrote that it’s better to write explicitly than to use analogies. I have a scientific bent so it is enough for me to see that seeds fall to the ground from trees and plants to try planting them. I would not need to be taught, but I would not reject information from some one who offered it to me.

      Confucius put it well –

      There are three ways to act wisely:

      Through meditation; this is the noblest.
      By imitation; this is the simplest.
      Through experience; this is the bitterest.

      Peace and love to all,
      Dinos

  56. abass ahmad lone says:

    Accept all things blindy as a wish of god then faith will remain in God./ reject God then all will b responsible for environment , mutations , time , place etc.but we r a mixture of these , obvisiouly when god their is God & when bad we raise finger against God .choose among one but all r with package of merits & demirits.but show patience in every one everywhere .

  57. Gemma reece says:

    When I meet God I’m gonna ask why. Why does he take children? And send me to hell cause I don’t want to be with something or anyone that thinks it’s OK to do that to innocent children, and then makes it sound OK. So send me to the depths of hell least the devil owns up to it!!!

    • consultgtf says:

      I understand your pain, but before you meet God who will very busy and will not give appointment in near future, Instead, Why don’t you ask your fellow humans to stop sinning and listen to the Creator!.
      As HE, very clearly told in the beginning…
      2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the house of bondage.
      3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
      4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

      Even after following His words, if there are discrepancy then we’ll discuss!

      • sklyjd says:

        There is discrepancy bout these quotes “You shall have no other gods before Me” and “showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments” Obviously the only people who are going to heaven are Christians. It appears hell is going to be really popular with all other religions and atheists bathing in the same pit of fire.

        This does not make any sense because people of non-Christian countries have no hope for heaven on these terms. I thought the Christian God created all life on earth, but obviously another god or gods created Islamic Muslims and Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Sikhism followers, because many of these people have never heard of the all good and loving Biblical God or Jesus and their own gods have also promised versions of eternal lives or rebirth. Therefore, would a Christian God be justified to condemn these people to hell?

        And these quotes “You shall not make for yourself a carved image” and “you shall not bow down to them nor serve them” This also does not ring true. Christians have the cross (many carved from wood) they bow down to and kiss, Catholics have the virgin Mary and the Pope who they bow to and kiss but Jews appear to adhere strictly to this rule.

        • dinoconstant says:

          Hi Sklyjd!

          I hope you find this as I wanted to respond to you but the site is telling me that I’m replying to Anonymous?

          If you want to check on contradictions, you could look at Leviticus 20:

          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20

          The Israelites and the aliens who lived who lived with them, were executed (licensed murder), by their fellow Israelites, for breaking any of the laws, as described in this scripture, thus breaking the sixth of the Ten Commandments, “You shall not murder.”

          Years ago, when I first read it, wanting to know what were the consequences of breaking the Ten Commandments, I was shocked both by the lack of morality of God’s chosen people and that God should require them to kill anyone who broke the laws. It made more sense to me that either God should cause the deaths of the law breakers by His own ‘hand’, or, that they should be banished. The stoning of their fellow Israelites could give some of them a lust for murder.

          Peace,

          Dinos

          • sklyjd says:

            Thank you dinoconstant for the response (I did not receive the normal prompt in my email) and link. I agree that God should be doing the killing with a lightning bolt or whatever rather than allowing men to become accustomed to murder. In fact, if any of it happened outside of the writer’s imaginations the violence, genocide and murder leads me to conclude Christianity is linked with the Islamic God and if they are not the same God they must be related.

            In fact all the gods from before Christianity share many similarities with God so maybe the whole lot are from the same family 

  58. No one says:

    I do not know why but God does. I will trust and belief i will find the answer. I pray you will too

  59. Rex says:

    A real God Never would have done that.

    • consultgtf says:

      Real will always DO IT! Because only He knows the pain of creation and if We, the creations are not bothered to even respect the Creator what else can we expect from the ALL LOVING GOD!

      What YOU, DESERVE to DESIRE? Can Anyone of you answer to this NAKED TRUTH!

      • dinoconstant says:

        Hello my friend, consultgtf!

        You are wise enough to know that none of God’s creatures know much about God, the uncreated Trinity. There may be those who know more through ‘participation’ when the Trinity allows it. This is the naked truth. The rest of us, without this participation, are merely expressing our views using a created language to vainly describe the actions and desires of an uncreated Being.

        How we are judged is God’s business; how we behave to one another is ours. It is better to try to lead a good life showing kindness to one another than to speculate on what pleases or displeases God. It’s quite probable that God is unaffected by what we consider should displease Him, since displeasure, anger, and other negative emotions are human traits of His creatures.

        Below is a link that you and other readers may find helpful:

        http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php

        The index to other topics on the same website is given below:

        http://www.frimmin.com/faith/index.php

        I ask with all humility that God will allow you show to show kindness, patience and respect to other readers whom you consider are being disrespectful or rude to our Creator.

        I think you believe that we shall be judged, eventually, and that we will be treated differently according to the way we have lived and behaved to others. If that is the case, I’m merely letting you know that the tone of your messages and your use of capital letters may offend some readers. If you want to be judged by your own standards, then I suggest that you try to show some kindness and respect to other contributors on this website.

        Peace and love to all,

        Dinos

      • sklyjd says:

        Simple, I do not believe he created anything apart from his presence within your own emotional mind.

        Naked truth are only tough words when not supported by real evidence.

        I would respect a man or any god who could look me in the eye and present the naked truth, but I cannot have respect for any non-physical super man-god of the spiritual world who commands me to love and worship him by threatening me with a so called hell.

  60. dinoconstant says:

    Hello everybody!

    Have you ever wondered why fundamentalists defend God as though they are defending themselves? It’s probably due to a common human trait which the author David McRaney calls Brand Loyalty in his book You Are Not So Smart. A link below refers for those who may be interested:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/You-Are-Not-So-Smart/dp/1851689397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469741124&sr=8-1&keywords=your+not+so+smart

    Brand Loyalty explains how we rationalise anything we hear or read that contradicts our rosy view of anything we have adopted as ours. This applies most profoundly to people with dogmatic views of God. For those of you who are unafraid to think, how much of the following have you heard that excuses God for allowing unnecessary suffering:

    We fell away from God’s grace due to the sins of Adam and Eve. Really? God is omniscient; why did He create us knowing that we would fall from His grace and that humanity would bring about a world of injustice and add natural disasters to ensure our demise? See the Bible ref. below:

    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    If God is everywhere and in everything (omnipresence), then He dwells also within evil. To say that Satan is the cause of evil is to contradict God’s omnipresence.

    Thinking people are likely to notice other problems with the creation story. Why would a God who is wholly good plant a tree in the middle of Eden that Satan could use to bring about our calamity and reduce us to mortality? The KJV version is shown below:

    Genesis 3:1-5King James Version (KJV)

    3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    So, having knowledge of good and evil is the key for us to “be as gods”, and God wanted us to be innocent and unknowing? I thought to be as gods we should have power over nature, as God is said to have. How does knowledge of good and evil make us as gods?

    I could go on, but this post would become too lengthy.

    In the interests of some balance, to those who want to believe but have difficulty with God’s method of using reward (heaven) and punishment (eternal damnation) to encourage us to be good, below is a link to a website that presents Him differently:

    http://www.frimmin.com/faith/index.php

    You may appreciate some of the topics from the introduction far better than what is offered by controlling pieces from fundamentalists.

    Peace and love to all,

    Dinos

  61. Anthony Mastrandrea says:

    Excellent article. Thank you. You touched on the one matter that caused me to continue to have faith in a God, that being we cannot as natural beings understand the thinking of a supernatural being. I cannot understand why God made my wife,a very good person, undergo extreme pain from the many medical problems and then let her die at the relatively young age of 62 just shortly after our 25th wedding anniversary of at all times. I continue to believe in a God, I cannot answer who or what God is, I have problems with saying Jesus or Allah or anyone is God. But I do believe in a God because my wife returned to me after her death for a brief 30 seconds. We did not speak and she quickly disappered. I was not dreaming or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I did see her in bodily flesh not some vapor of a ghost. Therefore I have scientific proof that a supernatural life does exist.
    I have then gone from Science to faith that there is a God, one that I cannot define by name or other means, that does exist that has created both natural life and supernatural life. My greatest wish is that I will be reunited in the Supernatural world with my wife at the time of my death. I would be interested in your thoughts. My name is Anthony Mastrandrea. My phone number is [REDACTED]. My email address is [REDACTED]. I live in Los Angeles. I thank you in advance for your response. Anthony Mastrandrea

    • Hi Anthony,

      Thanks for your comment. I think if I had an experience like that, I might believe too! Though I might question my state of mind, especially in my grief-stricken state, as it is still a pretty extraordinary claim that is being made.

      While your experience may have been real, it was not my own personal experience. So while it’s great for you and your faith, unfortunately, it cannot be considered truly scientific until it can be repeatedly tested in some way.

      I’ve long been fascinated by ghost stories and Near Death Experiences (see questions #19 and #20), but at the end of the day, science has been unable to prove either. It wouldn’t be all that difficult to hook up a bunch of cameras and sensors to a dying person, to see if we could detect the departure of the soul, but there doesn’t seem to be much interest in trying. And even if nothing is detected, believers could still claim that the observers had the wrong equipment, or that souls were undetectable by man-made interments.

      But there actually have been empirical tests performed with hundreds of cardiac arrest patients to see if they could view images placed above their hospital beds, but not one of them were able to describe the image. There have also been tests with people who believed they were able to have out-of-body experiences, and they were asked to try and read something that was written in another room — still nothing. We’ve also invested millions on testing prayer, because so many people claim it works — but this too has come back empty. So while many believe strongly in these things, and they have a lot of personal anecdotes and testimonies, there isn’t much empirical proof when we try to test these theories.

      So… while you have a fascinating personal testimony, it’s great for you, but not really me. I’ve heard too many strange, conflicting, and disproved testimonies to believe all of them are true. I also know the human brain isn’t nearly as reliable as we’d all like to believe, for a variety of reasons. Thus, it would unreasonable for me to accept every testimony of every extraordinary claim, no matter how much I might want them to be true. People have many strange experiences, and believe many things, or tell tall tales for many different reasons. If I were in there shoes I might believe differently, but until then, I have to demand better evidence before believing any extraordinary claim.

      Thanks,
      500Q

    • sklyjd says:

      Sorry your wife died so young, I lost my wife aged 38. It is just too easy to say “we cannot as natural beings understand the thinking of a supernatural being.” or the more common “God moves in mysterious ways” are often used to answer these sort of events, but in reality it only gives comfort to the already indoctrinated.

      People in similar circumstances as yourself have claimed to have seen a loved one after death and it is a natural phenomenon that has to credited to the unknown and mind boggling complexities of the brain. Some people I have blogged and people have written books believing they have seen someone or constantly see people who have died from the ghostly apparitions to solid life like forms.

      The brain can manifest reality so well that it fools you and for some people this has been related to mental illness, however, these events open up the many questions about how much do we do not understand how the human brain functions and how we can possibly ever have full control of it.

  62. s says:

    Sure you have said it rightly

    • dinoconstant says:

      Hello ‘s’!

      I’m perplexed by your response to 500Q, “Sure you have said it rightly”

      Would you please clarify if you meant:

      Sure you have said it rightly? (OR) Sure, you have said it rightly!

      Peace and love to all,

      Dinos

  63. Joe says:

    I am sorry but God let his own son die on a cross, as a father I have a hard time believing that a father wouldn’t do what he could to save their own children. Then the bible says he died for our sins… We’re still sinning!!!

  64. Roby says:

    When the angel Lucifer sinned against God he was then banished from Heaven and given his punishment. The punishment was that he rule over hell. Rule meaning he became the God of hell. Thus creating the inevitable balance we now know as “free will”. God does not condone evil. He detests it! The world will forever be at odds. Good versus evil. God and Satan. Life and death. God created life and death. Satan created unimaginable evil and death as a result of that evil. Because of free will God cannot interfere. If he does then the balance would no longer exist. I love my God and I have faith in him. My faith has been challenged many times in this life. I have seen and felt suffering. My solace lies in my eternal home. Where my pain and suffering as well add my children’s will come to an end. I pray for peace and understanding for all the readers of this article. It comes to this….a choice. You are free to choose. To live in the light of a God who loves you and cries just as you do over the suffering of all who have been created or live in darkness without any faith at all in something better than what Satan has to offer.

    • EKS says:

      Copying my own reply from April :
      Why create Lucifer, knowing ahead of time that he would rebel and take a bunch of angels with him? Why not obliterate him if he’s such a problem?
      Why bother to create hell except to be sadistic?

  65. dinoconstant says:

    Dear Readers/Contributors,

    There are some people who like to use forums such as this one to bash us, and humanity as a whole, with their doctrines. They defend their God as though they are defending themselves. Such people attribute God with omnipotence, so He is well able to defend Himself, even to cause non-believers to die and go to hell where they cannot spread their evil atheism to others! Alternatively, He could cause them to experience something so unique and wonderful, they think it must be from God and are converted! A good God should be willing and able to do this, shouldn’t He?

    Anyway, I do not believe in the God as described and worshipped by many on this forum. I believe that if He does exist, then any of the following could explain the conundrums apparent to all thinking humans:

    1) He maybe powerful but not omnipotent;

    2) He may be omnipotent but not entirely good;

    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-45-7/

    3) He may be a creative force, one that causes life to come into existence, incorrigibly on this planet, if true, and indifferent to the problems caused by the struggle to live and to thrive;

    4) He may lack omniscience – unaware of the havoc He’s caused us.

    5) He may not exist or be worthy of the title, “God”; it depends on how we define God;

    6) whatever His nature, who are we to know or indeed how are we to know, with real evidence, and not from the Bible, which promotes itself like an idol to be worshipped and paraded in churches;

    7) if He exists and is worthy to be called “God”, how likely is it that He should require worship and isn’t this activity for the benefit of self-indulgent worshippers;

    8) if He is worthy to be called God, why do we anthropomorphise Him and give Him human traits, like jealousy (I am a jealous God…), Lover of those who believe in Him and obey His commands, Hater of the non-believers who do not, angry about our repeated misdeeds, joyful to those who are self-sacrificial, doing His “good works”, in synergy with the Holy Spirit, etc?

    This is not a comprehensive list and I leave readers to imagine other possibilities. Please be aware that I consider myself unclassified, whatever readers may think, because of the way different religions assign different attributes to God, and because, within Christianity, there are more sects than can be imagined by those who are content within their own, and have not explored other Christian denominations. Below are a couple of links that list the denominations and estimate their number:

    http://www.seiyaku.com/reference/denominations-list.html

    http://www.seiyaku.com/reference/denominations-alpha.html

    If you feel the need to be a Christian in order to be good, one of the best websites I’ve explored is shown below:

    http://www.frimmin.com/faith/index.php

    Peace and love to all,

    Dinos

  66. Anonymous says:

    Yall are all over thinking this waaaaay to much… idk about yals but MY GOD is awesome, and ill never let him wonder from my heart again! AMEN

  67. dinoconstant says:

    Hello Anonymous!

    Your whole post was –

    Anonymous says:
    August 16, 2016 at 6:08 AM
    Yall are all over thinking this waaaaay to much… idk about yals but MY GOD is awesome, and ill never let him wonder from my heart again! AMEN

    Your message is unclear and your grammar does not help. You have not said who your God is – it could easily be Allah? Also, how did you let him wander from your heart?

    If you’re referring to the Christian God, then you appear to have forgotten what Christ said about the great commandment –

    Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Did you notice that Christ, according to this scriptural passage, includes thy mind?

    Peace and love to all,

    Dinos

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