While I’ve previously touched on the problem of evil, I wanted to focus a bit more on what is perhaps the most heinous evil one can possibly imagine: the suffering and death of innocent children.
Each year, approximately 10 million children will die from causes such as birth defects, malnutrition, accidents, disease, SIDS, cancer, starvation, homicide, war, etc. The literal torture that some children must endure is absolutely unconscionable.
When children suffer and die, it forces us to ask some difficult questions:
- If God creates life for a purpose, why end it before it can accomplish that purpose?
- Why should an innocent child suffer for crimes it didn’t commit?
- Why should children suffer pain that they cannot understand or comprehend?
- Why make a child suffer and die when they can’t possibly learn from the experience?
If there is no God, then the suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature. Our brains perceive these events as sad and unfortunate, but nature is unthinking and indifferent.
But, if a moral God exists, then why do these tragedies continue as if there were no God? Why do children continue to suffer and die as if God is indifferent to the situation?
There are numerous explanations attempting to maintain God’s innocence in this case, so let’s take a quick look at each of them.
1. “God allows evil, but does not cause it.”
God always had the opportunity to say, “I refuse to create mankind, because it will result in the creation of evil and suffering.” By choosing to create us, God chose to create suffering where none previously existed. An all-good God should’ve chosen not to create us, since this would allow him to keep the amount of suffering in the Universe at absolute zero, and our uncreated souls would’ve been none the wiser.
2. “The natural world is under the curse of sin.”
In order to excuse God from the suffering he created, we sometimes try to place all the blame on man or Satan, saying, “It’s not God’s fault man sinned and let evil into the world!” But who defines the limits of mankind’s punishment? God! So why didn’t God just design a punishment that didn’t involve punishing innocent children?
For example, why not just kick Adam and Eve out of Eden and allow their sinless children to remain? Or allow Adam and Eve to stay, but punish them in the afterlife (instead of punishing them in this life and the next)? Or why not give children a greater level of protection outside of Eden? Or not allow them to feel serious pain until they’re older, or after they’ve sinned?
“If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
— Luke 11:13
Even we who are evil recognize that children should not be punished for sins they didn’t commit. And yet… they are.
3. “If God did not allow evil, then he would have to destroy everything that is evil.”
This all-or-nothing fallacy says that either all evil must exist, or it all must be destroyed — but surely there must be some middle ground.
For example, when Jonas Salk discovered a vaccine for polio, he lessened the number of suffering children in the world. He didn’t end all suffering, just some of it. Likewise, God could eliminate some kinds of suffering without eliminating all suffering, such as the suffering of children.
In fact, if God were truly benevolent, he would see to it that only the absolute minimum amount of suffering existed. Anything beyond that would be, by definition, unnecessary, and God would be malevolent for allowing it.
So was polio absolutely necessary? As believers, we have to say yes, or admit that it was totally unnecessary and that God is malevolent. But if polio was necessary, then why have we been allowed to eradicate a necessary evil? The fact that we can eliminate it suggests it was never necessary.
Similarly, thanks to improvements in science and education, the childhood mortality rate has been greatly reduced over the past 20 years. Was it really absolutely necessary for millions more children to die 20 years ago than today? If we can save them today, why didn’t God just spare them 20 years ago? These deaths appear unnecessary, because if we had these cures 20 years ago, they wouldn’t have all died.
4. “God rarely interferes with His creation.”
We Christians give thanks to God for every small thing. Why is it that God can help us with so many little things, but he can’t (or won’t) stop lunatics from raping and killing children?
If God and 99.99% of mankind are opposed to such behavior, why would God even allow it? If we’re all in agreement that we don’t need or want this much freedom, why does it exist?
Clearly, God offers us NO protection if he refuses to spare even the most innocent from the most evil. Does it stand to reason that God would want to save guilty sinners in the next life, when he won’t even save the most innocent in this one?
The Bible tells us we can identify a tree by its fruit (Luke 6:44). If God allows such atrocities against children, isn’t this evidence of bad fruit?
5. “If God stopped people from harming children, this would restrict our free will, and it might even prove the existence of a God.”
Most of the harm that befalls children comes from disease and environmental factors, not from malicious humans. Man did not design harmful viruses, bacteria, and natural disasters. Would it really destroy our faith or free will if we lived in a world without these things? Wouldn’t we still be free to lie, cheat, steal, assault, kill, destroy, and reject God without these things?
Consider the other natural limitations that God has placed on our free will. For example, we do not have the free will to live underwater. If we try, there are immediate and deadly natural consequences: we can’t breathe and we die! But there are no such natural restrictions on things like abusing children. Why not?
Why would an intelligent, loving God design a world that naturally prevents us from doing things that don’t matter, and then not protect the things that do? Is God more concerned about our going underwater than he is about protecting children?
6. “These children may have turned against God at a later date, so he took them early.”
If God put them here to make a choice, what good does it do to take them out before they make it? Why not take out every person before they turn against him?
7. “God is able to bring a greater good out of tragedy.”
No one ever says, “Boy, it sure is a good thing our son died!” or “It’s a good thing those 10 million babies died last year!” By all appearances, it’s a sad and unfortunate loss without recompense. While some good can come out of tragedy, it rarely seems enough to make up for the loss.
As a Christian, I may have been able to rationalize such loss if it always resulted in other people becoming saved; but it’s hard to imagine that such a scheme would work, or that God would kill children just to bolster salvation rates. (Why not just kill off vocal atheists?)
8. “The death of a child allows the parents to help others in a similar position.”
But if no children died, there wouldn’t be any parents in a similar position.
9. “God gives these children an eternity in heaven, which makes up for any and all suffering.”
In 1996, eight-year-old Michael Lyons was walking home from school when he was abducted by Robert Rhoades. Rhoades raped and tortured Michael for ten hours, stabbing him 70 times before slitting his throat and dumping him in a bush by a river. Now, I have to ask, what was God doing during those ten hours? Was he watching silently, more concerned about protecting his own identity and Robert’s free will than answering the terrified pleas of an eight-year-old? (Would anyone have noticed if Robert just died of a heart attack the day before? Or if he was never conceived?)
Maybe God did say to Michael later that same day, “Welcome to paradise! It’s all bliss from here on out!” And maybe Michael replied, “Yes Lord, but where were you just then? Why didn’t you stop him?” What could God possibly say? “Well… it won’t happen again, so that makes it okay.” How could someone who truly loves you allow for such a thing?
Saying that heavenly compensation magically turns a wrong into a right is like saying if Rhoades paid Michael’s parents one billion dollars, it would justify the crime. But it doesn’t. It still happened, Rhoades is still a child killer, and there will always be a time when God could’ve prevented it, but didn’t.
“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you.’ If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.”
— Tracie Harris, The Atheist Experience
10. “The Bible tells us, ‘Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding.'”
When all the above rationalizations fail, the last resort is often to assume that God has a reason, we just don’t know what it is. I see a few problems with this answer.
Firstly, it’s not an answer, it just defers the question indefinitely and then assumes a reasonable explanation exists, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Secondly, this is like being told: “You should just accept that God allowed your child to be raped and murdered for a good reason! And when you get to heaven you’ll say, ‘Oh! There really was a good reason! Thank you Lord for allowing my child to be raped and murdered!'” I can’t imagine any scenario in which this could ever make sense.
Thirdly, this kind of argument can be used to defend any logical absurdity from any religion. “Stop doubting Zeus/Joseph Smith/Ahura Mazda/Muhammad/Jim Jones/Marshall Applewhite/Ra/L. Ron Hubbard/etc. and just accept that all these logical absurdities will be explained in the afterlife!”
Finally, and perhaps most profoundly, the Bible tells us that God’s creation testifies to His nature (Romans 1:20). If God is benevolent and cares for children, yet His creation testifies to the contrary (by killing children through disasters and disease), then God has borne false witness against himself. How can we choose to love God when His creation testifies that he allows for unnecessary and extraneous evil? If only men did evil deeds, then we might be able to make a case for God’s innocence, but this creation as it stands speaks to either a god of malevolence, or a natural indifference.
Conclusion
Again, if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds of damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.
However, if God exists, then we face a logical conundrum: why would a good God allow such evil things to happen to children? If he loves our children more than we do, why would he create a world filled with devastation and not safeguard them from it?
Would you stand idly by as someone molested, mutilated, and killed your child? If you then, though you are evil, would rescue your child, how much more should your Father in heaven if you ask him? But he doesn’t. He creates a world where it can happen, and then stands idly by as it does.
“Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own?”
— Robert Ingersoll
500 Questions about God & Christianity 
Well said. Thanks Ajit. I wish all would have brains like yours and mine.
I voted “other” on the poll because I do not think God probably does not exist, I believe without doubt that no gods have ever existed past or present.
Hi sklyjd!
I find it hard to be dogmatic about anything.
There appears to be something god-like about humanity itself. I think we have a combination of curiosity, creativeness, imagination, intelligence, capacity to be altruistic, desire to improve ourselves and to dominate our environment that is unique on this planet. People have done amazing things, like climbing mount Everest, competing in the Olympics, theorizing about the natural world, as Einstein did, invented, discovered and built things, like pyramids, cathedrals, amazing bridges, dams sewerage systems and clean water supplies. We have achieved much through self-belief and for humanity.
Belief in deities, gods or monotheism also has consequences, even though they may be based on delusions. If enough people believe, it becomes a reality; their god or gods exist to them. Such beliefs govern the way they behave both as individuals and collectively. Mostly, such beliefs hold back progress, like the belief that the earth was the centre of the universe held back the acquisition of knowledge of the universe. Although there was no entity at work, the collective beliefs were.
Another consequence of beliefs in an entity higher than ourselves is the the concept of an after life, and the idea that we get what we deserve. I think such beliefs endanger the survival of humanity as it allows leaders of powerful countries to go to war with middle eastern countries, sure that God will look after innocent people, caught up in the conflict and often referred to as collateral damage. So it enables them to go to war without responsibility of the outcome.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Exodus, I can debunk everything you said just about. But one line made you look insane- “”If God was just, which he is, then we’d all be in hell right now.”” One problem with what you just said- We are not in hell right now. Well really we ARE, but not according to your beliefs. So this shows the cognitive dissonance that you’ve been programmed to go through by your evil religion. God of the bible is most certainly 100% Evil. And he lies too. Just read the bible for proof. Words are spells, look up truthiracy he completely exposed the bible for what it is. Bible= Bi-bull= 2 bulls, written in parables= Pair Of Bulls. I could go on all night, but I dont have time now. But I can prove the bible wrong on every level and cause your head to start spinning. And I guarantee you won’t be back. lol
Thank you for your response.
God=Satan=BothOneandThesame=IllusionOfDuality; First let me start by stating that I’m NOT looking for a debate or to cause ANY negative reactions by my reply, with that said, I can completely relate to this post, my son who was diagnosed with Leukemia @ 6yrs old, in critical condition, was by far the hardest thing I ever went through in my life, 8 long back to back years of chemo, treatments, and watching my youngest son become ill, scream out in pain, wake up crying to ask me if he was going to die, so I get it, I do! However, I do have my own beliefs that also hold weight, NO, my beliefs are not the normal idea of what the Bible says our God is, actually I call him, The A.I.D. Absolute Intelligent Designer, it has been proven that NOTHING happens by chance AND it is also fact that our universe or whatever you want to call it has certain laws of physics AND the AS ABOVE, SO BELOW, Balance of opposites, such as: Night/Day, Good/Evil, ect.. And it obviously took me years of cursing and questioning the Creator/God BUT I realized that no matter how terrible the situation is there is ALWAYS a Rainbow to be experienced, if not for you/me, someone, ALWAYS, that’s the Balance of the evil and NO, it may not affect you/me BUT sometimes it’s for something BIGGER than you or I. I may not have seen the rainbow during those 8 years BUT I did become a stronger person, learned lots of tough lessons AND at the END of the 8year Hell Storm, my son and I finally experienced the other side of that Beauty from all the pain, and suffering, he is now Cancer free and 16 years old… I also gotta say this, before someone says “Well, at least your son is alive” keep in mind that WE ALL have dark patches and no one truly knows the pain of another, it is something that should NEVER be placed above or below anyone else’s….. I do hope this helps at least 1 person, much love 😉
I absolutely agree with you! So no debate here : )
When I say God is Satan, I am not talking about the true god (which is love within us) I am talking about the god of the bible. If you read about the atrocities he has committed, you’ll understand why I say he is the devil. Luckily he isn’t the true god though, or we’d all be doomed.
Peace and Love to you
I felt so good after reading your son is doing good…But a father loses her 5 yr old kid in a road accident which is not his or his child fault and only the fault of the driver, what do you say for that? this incident happened yesterday in my city and it greatly troubles my faith towards creator…i do believe him but why the fuck small innocent kids die painfully angers me to the core…
Ah, friend, I’d enjoy hearing your eisegetical hermeneutic of the Bible. Avoid the demarcation problem and Fitch’s Paradox of Knowability, and illustrate an irrefutable and epistemological proof that’s not a self-applied, heuristic postulation, and I’ll grant you the time of day.
Hi dinoconstant,
I think I understand what you mean. Nothing is simple about humanity and I do not believe everything is as it appears to be. This, as you say is a god-like phenomenon and it is a fair enough description.
Humans are amazing animals and can achieve a lot as you have pointed out and the human brain is the most amazing organ to have ever evolved. The brain of course is the ultimate key to everything we achieve in life but I believe is also the number one candidate for much of what we do not understand and a lot of what is unexplainable in both the physical and spiritual worlds. Science has a long way to go in answering questions about the capabilities of the brain and to some extent I feel that humans are trying to catch up to discover the capabilities of our own faster and more evolved brain.
The process of religious and political indoctrination is still not fully understood even though it is based on suggestion and delusion it is one of those amazing capabilities of the brain that can manifest a very real perception of reality and belief often beyond logical understanding and contrary evidence.
Indoctrination and mind control would have been an evolved brain proficiency originating from our common ancestors to help ensure our survival. Indoctrination is dangerous in our modern society because as you pointed out these beliefs can hold back the acquisition of knowledge; create psychological damage, radicalisation and discrimination, human life can become worthless and responsibilities non-existent.
Anyone who says they know that there is or isn’t a god has either made a god of themselves or shut the door to anything beyond their tiny, brief experience of life.
They close themselves off to the possibility of realizing god if such a being does exist.
I can’t see how any human being on this tiny speck of a planet in an unimaginably huge universe can pretend to hold such an immense piece of knowledge.
Seems to me that agnosticism is the only logical position. But then again, I’m only human.
How on Earth do you make a god of yourself? My experience of life is quite extensive, and I am far from being a young man who is wet behind the ears like yourself. You write and assume you are somehow more knowledgeable and experienced in life to people who do not believe in your god.
Let us be clear, I cannot believe the unbelievable, and I want to shut the door on your god which ever god that may be and every other so-called god unless there is good reason for me to change my mind, and that I can bet will never happen, therefore I will stay true to my word.
If you cannot understand how someone can pretend to hold such an immense piece of knowledge in this huge universe, please read some scientific Earth bound facts regarding the first religions, biological evolution, the impossibility of raising the dead and life after death, cosmology, geology and of course neuroscience to find out exactly where your god exists.
Thanks for an intelligent, soundly written reply.
I appreciate your candor.
Looks like you’ve got things pretty well figured out, so many blessings on your journey … Or your arrival I should say 😉
And by the way as far as reading scientific, earth bound facts, try director of the world wide genome project Francis Collins, neurologist Caroline Leaf, or Templeton prize winning physicists John Polkinghorn or Paul Davies.
As far as my being a young man, I only wish that were the case. Your childish insults, and assumptions about me only reveal your own lack of maturity and a very fragile ego.
The response is a perfect example of my original point.
Anyone who claims to know the unknowable is either incapable or unwilling to learn anything beyond their own limited experience.
You call my comments as “childish insults,” that is being a little precious don’t you think? I have been called far worse.
OK so you are not so young, however you originally wrote as though I was and assumed I would fall into this statement.
Your statement “Anyone who claims to know the unknowable is either incapable or unwilling to learn anything beyond their own limited experience.”
Precisely, so as you do not know that any gods exist, the Bible and faith simply are not recognised as evidence by science, it is unknowable, or are you saying your experience is not limited and you have inside information? And what makes you assume anyone who does not accept your ideology does not already understand what it is about, is willing to learn something new and has plenty of experience?
I’m not sure what you mean when you say my calling your comments childish insults are “precious,” but yes, backhandedly calling someone “wet behind the ears” is an insult. So is insinuating they have no knowledge of “earth bound facts” simply because they haven’t arrived at the same conclusion as you have.
Having said that, I have to admit, that the internet can be a terrible place for people of differing views to hold a civil discussion. It’s easy to make assumptions and send the wrong message. Sorry if my original message came off as disrespectful in any way. In retrospect, I would have said that “I can’t see how I, a human being on this tiny speck of a planet in an unimaginably huge universe, can pretend to hold such an immense piece of knowledge as whether or not there is a god (not necessarily the biblical god) or any kind of supreme being.
In regard to your question as to whether or not I have inside information of the fact that there’s no way of knowing that there’s a god … Are you suggesting I have inside information that I don’t know something? Sorry, just seems like a nonsensical question.
Anyway, I’m willing to concede to the fact that you really believe there is no god. If you found enough evidence to satisfy you, then contrats. Nothing I say is going to change your mind.
For me it’s not so simple, for there are millions of educated people (as you are I’m sure) who have come to believe that there is in fact a god.
Having listened to hundreds of debates, read numerous books on both sides of the argument, I can honestly say I don’t know, and I don’t know how anyone can know one way or the other.
One thing that I’m wondering though… if you know there is no god, why go to a website called 500 Questions About God and Christianity?
It’s been a pleasure trading barbs. You’re a good debater for sure.
I wish you happy holidays, and all the best of whatever may or may not be out there.
John
What evil thoughts or deeds are YOU guilty of? Should God stop YOU every time YOU have an evil thought? That is the point of the Gospel – men are wicked. If God did not allow us to do what we want to do, then what is truly inside of us would not be revealed. Men are wicked and need a savior from their sins. Men would not have free will if God did not allow us free choice.
Man has the choice to love God or reject God for self. What is in man’s self is sin. You and I are both sinners. What is in our hearts is more important than what acts or deeds we perform, for the acts and deeds proceed from our hearts.
If God stood over you watching your every move and said “Now, now, don’t you do that,” or “Don’t you think that way,” we may say “Oh, sorry about that,” but our true desire still remains.
You can imagine God looking over you even NOW, yet you choose to deny him and live in sin. God still lets you be yourself, patently awaiting your repentance. God allows ALL men the ability to freely choose either God or self. God allows man free reign without constant intervention so that the sin that is within us will be exposed. All men are sinners.
God allows evil to exist so that it can it can be eradicated though the cross of Christ. Men must yield themselves to God by the cross of Calvary, by Jesus Christ, by repentance from sin and forgiveness in Christ through belief in his life, death, burial and resurrection. Once those who freely choose God and reject self and sin are fully numbered, the end will come. Evil will be eradicated.
Dear James Hampton,
Do you think you are doing good by describing all men as wicked? What is the basis of this claim? What gives you the courage to judge all men? Why have you not mentioned women?
IF you are basing your venomous views on the Bible, don’t you know how terribly flawed it is? Within it, there is as much literature on the goodness of humans, and a guarantee that we are all saved, as there is that we are all sinners and only some of us will be saved. As for evil, don’t you know that the Bible states that it was created by God?
Below are some Bible quotes for you to rationalise:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”
Genesis 1:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
John 4:42 King James Version (KJV)
42 And said unto the woman, “Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.”
I’m not a scholar of the Bible, just a human being who thinks and writes freely and without fear, so if you want to examine your Christian beliefs in more detail, I would suggest you read the information provided in the link below:
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
I recommend this not because I think it is good to believe, but it is better to believe in the immanent goodness of humans, than in their wickedness, and in the sincere hope that you will refrain, in future, from allegations that suggest that all men are wicked.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
God did not create evil. There is no evil in God. If that was so, God would cease from being God. Evil is contrary to God’s nature. Habakkuk 1:13 tells us that God is of purer eyes than to behold evil. Allowing evil is different from creating it. I don’t think Jesus as God incarnate came to give His life as a ransom for good people.
Romans 3:10-12 tells us
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
God bless!
“Earthly minded” you say, let me explain that evidence for something that happens in the real earthly world is profoundly logical, observable and not beyond reasonability. Earthly evidence does not come from a superstitious hope or emotional faith based feelings.
You mention “9 million abortions that happen yearly in America”. Apart from the massive over inflated figure you provided it is nothing compared to the real figures such as 21,000 children who die each day of poverty who suffer in agony from hunger and disease.
Considering your Christian God is omniscience and omnipotent he would have already have known what happens when he created the world. So yes, if you have to believe in a spiritual super being it must be your God who is to blame. In reality, if you can take a moment to connect with it, it is humans of real flesh and blood on a real earth that have real control of such matters and are the only power able to do something about it and of course take the blame.
You make a song and dance, saying “Would you allow your child to be brutally beaten, spit on, mocked, and nailed naked to a cross to save your enemies…the ones killing your child? Would you?” The fact is many, upon many thousands if not millions of people have witnessed more brutality, suffered more and lost their children under similar or even more bizarre circumstances than Jesus, and often under the name of God. One huge difference, Jesus \God knew he could be revived back to life, however the parents on earth simply do not have such a convenient plan B to fall back on.
You claim “We lack the capacity to love like God but we gather the nerve to put God on trial as if we are the judge in some inverted way God needs to be somehow absolved of His actions. Can’t you see the utter blashpheme in such an act?” Not at all, this God of love and morals obviously does not exist, he judges unborn babies and suffering children according to your faith but many of us have real earthly evidence he is a myth and a real workable set of human morals that says what is right and what is wrong.
You state “This fallen, sin cursed world is not our (believers) home.” OK fair enough but for all of us unbelievers and condemned sinners it is our home and while you believers live with the morality that children are born sinners who deserve death without having life in the real world do not expect any sympathy or a lot of tolerance regarding your superstitious faith.
What rubbish “Your brain, and mental accumen falls extremely short in deciphering the mysteries of God.” This is exactly the opposite, many of your cognitive processes have been emotionally corrupted through indoctrination into your specific ideology, just in case you do not believe me check out what it means:
“Indoctrination often refers to religious ideas, when you’re talking about a religious environment that doesn’t let you question or criticize those beliefs.
Noun example, the act of indoctrinating, or teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view: religious indoctrination.
You say “What I am hearing is that you can do a better job at being God than God can right?” Right on, from what I have read and found out about your fictitious Christian God and the many other gods invented by man I can safely and unequivocally say there are many millions of people who would make better role models and gods.
You blunder on “God did not tell us to place our faith on the conditions of suffering babies and children. Sin is the cause for so much pain.” Of course, sin and Satan trumps over love and good every time and the greatest power known to the universe can do nothing about it??
More bluster “What God allows is His business. Pain is the common and usual elixir to break the stony hearts of men to come crying to God.” Oh that justifies everything, can you take a step back and see how stupid this is?
Again “God is either good or evil. If God is evil which is what is implied by your post and many other comments i read then the devil…Satan must be good.” You assume a lot of stuff. Let me be clear, true atheists do not believe in any gods or deities and this includes devils, Satan and the evil angels.
You say “God said He created man in His image.” Maybe, but we have far more ethics and morals than he could ever understand.
May you see the facts one day.
Thank you for engaging. Enjoyed reading your post. God bless.
dino, He just meant that God loves all sinners equally and that all sins are equally bad in his eyes. It doesn’t matter if you lie, cheat, steal, kill, or rape, God sees all sins the same and since all men are sinners, he sees us all the same way.
Dear Shelley,
The laws of many predominantly Christian countries do not see all crimes as equally bad. I certainly would not judge the desperate stealing of food to live as bad as the willful killing of another human being for personal profit. We have no way of knowing how ‘God’ judges our sins; I imagine you are only guessing when you write, “all sins are equally bad in his eyes.”
Reading The Ten Commandments could lead you to think that the worse sin is to put other gods before Him, the monotheistic god, as it’s theme of the first of the Ten! In fact, there is no direct moral guidance until Commandment number five which instructs us “Honour your father and your mother …….”
The only ways we can presume that all human beings are sinners is by assuming we are sinful by nature or that we inherited sin from our “ancestors”, Adam and Eve. It would be wrong to think that an omnibenevolent god could create us as sinful in nature and His failure to instruct Eve, as well as Adam, about the Tree of Knowledge, would suggest He wanted them to fail so that He could execute His master plan that included our suffering.
I prefer to think of human beings as innately good, not as sinners, and I imagine that most able-bodied adults would rescue a child seen drowning in shallow water, even though the child is a stranger to us.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
YOU don’t judge stealing food the same as other sins and neither do I, but how do you know God doesn’t?
I don’t “presume all human beings are sinful by nature” and I never said that in those words but I do know ALL human beings sin.
Apart from the great reply Dinoconstant has submitted to you the first thought that entered my head when reading your writing was that it is claimed by most Christians (as you would know) that your God knows what is going to happen long before it does.
Therefore, I assume you do not follow this doctrine because the question would have to be, if he knows what wickedness is inside of our hearts, who is going to repent or who is going to be consumed in evil so what was the point of creating this world?
You say he allows evil to exist, but why is this an issue anyway if he already knows who is heaven bound? Obviously, our life is predetermined and God just loves to watch people do what he knows they will do…. Boring.
God knows everything such as who is going to die today and it is condoned as part of Gods big plan and us mere mortals are not supposed to understand it. We are told to be subservient and worship this God until it is our turn to die and be at his mercy for his judgement on your fate in either heaven or hell. This all appears to be a waste of his time and another fantastic story designed to scare children.
No one dies. Everyone lives forever! Eternally in hell or eternally with God. True death is total separation from God in outer darkness.
God is eternal and infinite and can not die. We as man are created in God’s image and neither can we die. God will get the glory no matter what. If you go to hell God gets to glory for eliminating sin and allowing those who wanted nothing to do with Him to be separated from Him for all eternity. If you go to heaven God still gets the glory for redeming you from hell.
Since my words are so insane, please permit me to elevate the insanity by giving you the words from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
John 6:50-51
50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
God bless!
According to the Bible verses, your God and the writers of his words had absolutely no idea of the immensity of the universe, the solar system, our earth or the diverse world we live in. Unless of course you believe in an earth supported on pillars or foundations within a dome it is then not possible that they could understand much more than what they could imagine to be true.
Let me explain, the emotional state you feel about God is called indoctrination and it takes a firm control of individuals in any form of religious life.
Best wishes to you and all the writers for the new year
so how does a 6 month old baby ‘eat of it’?
Many thanks Dino. I just love your remarks/Comments
It would all make sense if the earth is actually hell and all of us were sent here by God to either choose love or evil. When we learn to love we will be accepted back into the kingdom, otherwise we would corrupt the kingdom. Why do you think we were born onto an isolated planet in the middle of a universe with nothing else but us? We are in Hell and Satan rules here unless we learn to follow God and then it is decided whether we have learned how not to corrupt the kingdom and then we can go home.
If that were Biblical I might debate it, but it’s not. The Bible doesn’t say we were all citizens if heaven, who were sent to “hell” because of some heavenly transgression. Would that make more sense? Maybe, but we can’t go changing the story.
Do u really believe in the words that u have written here??
I suggest both Good & Evil lives in every man & woman, Add a D to Evil and you get Devil, add an O to God you get Good.. What do the two letters added spell?.. DO as in DO Good and Evil?
Hi Marshall!
Thank you for your contribution.
I think you can show all sorts of links by modifying words and comedians do it all the time.
Your suggestion that good deeds come from God and bad from the Devil has a biblical base, but behavioural psychologists have shown experimentally that such behaviours can be readily learned. Such studies have limitations but are probably better than biblical bases for good and bad behaviour. A link to the Bobo Doll Experiment is given below:
http://www.simplypsychology.org/bobo-doll.html
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
500 Questions,
We should ask this question to Jesus when He returns (in Millennial kingdom).
I am curious what’s the answer.
Sure. I’d also like to ask him why he didn’t return 2,000 years ago, like he promised he would. (See #64.)
BTW, The Second Coming happens after the reign of Antichrist.
In order to ask Him in Jerusalem, you must survive 7 years of Antichrist (New World Order).
You must know that, right?
Err…. Do you believe in New World Order conspiracy, BTW?
a child that suffers because of a natural calamity..stil can understand..but how do i understand a childs who suffers in the hands of another human being…theres a mafia gruop around who break the back bone of small kids to cripple them and send them out for begging…pls God keep of children safe..please God..ONLY THOU CAN
This is very sad and a disgusting crime just as over 20,000 children die every day from hunger and disease. Pray all you want, day and night. We already know nothing will change so does this not tell you something quite profound?
Lets us proclaim the Mystery of Faith.
Satan walks this earth as sin. Reincarnation = sin—–Kingdom of Heaven = repent from sin.
He states in the Bible that He will protect us! But he does not! Especially children!!! Children…BABIES being raped and murdered!!!! No real father would allow that!!! How can we feel safe in that belief?
I share the same thoughts as you on this. I just can’t seem to wrap my Intelligence around this bullshit.
These answers about this question from you god apologists folks are always seemingly the same, and it is insulting in the lowest common denominator.. YOU ARE VERY INCONSIDERATE AND BAD PEOPLE FOR YOUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS..
You keep saying children are innocent. They are not innocent. In the womb sin affects every new born baby. A baby doesn’t become a sinner when it sins…NO. A baby will eventually come to the point of sinning because the baby is a sinner. The outward act of sin is simply a manifestation of the condition of every man or womans heart that is born.
Secondly, as the creation with all due respect, where do you muster up the impetus and audacity to use your fallen human rationale to try to comprehend the acts of a sovereign infinite eternal being. Our thoughts are not His (God’s) thougts and our ways are not His ways. What you are doing is using falible reasoning to try to unscrew the infallibity of God.
What God allows is just and right because I trust in His attributes as a righteous pure and holy God. God’s character should not hinge upon the faulty short sided reasoning of man.
The same babies who suffer that you keep talking about in order to pluck at the heartstrings of man pales in comparison to what God allowed to happen to His sinless son who committed no sin. The perfect lamb was slain. According to your perspective God would be evil for allowing evil to afflict His one and only begotten son. But it is that perceived evil act in your eyes that God brought about redemption, salvation, and forgiveness of sins to those who place their trust in the son Jesus Christ.
There is purpose in suffering. Just because your finite brain is incapable of grasping the complete scope of what God allows and what He does not, doesn’t make God inept. It makes us as fallen man inept. I’d rather place my trust in a sovereign God who has complete control than to try to infuse my frail human logic in trying to assassinate the character of God.
God is on the throne! He eas there when He allowed His son to be murdered, and He will still be on the throne when babies suffer.
God bless!
Exodus, your excuse for this fictional baby killer is very poor and your comments are just supporting bloodthirsty superstitious rubbish from a book filled with myths.
As you are preaching a version of religious faith and your thinking has been seriously distorted by religious indoctrination I understand you are not fully responsible or able to comprehend these emotionally disturbed comments.
Fictional baby killer? Was it God that told the Jews to sacrifice there babies to the evil pagan god Molech?. People would take their children to appease a god of the sun by burning their babies alive. Out of fear people did this. Is it God that tells 9 million people a year in America to commit abortions?
Myth? No….I disagree respecfully! Your inability to comprhend the vast and immense paradigm of an infinite being speaks more to your flawed logic than it does compared to the wisdom of God. I simply trust in God who alone has the power to redeem lost unrgenerate men from hell. I’m assuming apathy and indifference from your perspective because after all this is all a myth to you.
Fictional and God can’t be mentioned in the same breadth. The brain you are using this minute to arrive at your conclusion was given to you by the same God you claim is fictional.
It’s unfortunate that a conclusion denying God is indicative of what Paul wrote in Romans about having a reprobate mind. If you deny God and abandon Him, he’ll return the favor and give you over to a reprobate (useless) mind. Henceforth the type of conclusion you have arrived at. How can the giver of life and the source of life be called a baby killer? Only an inverted mind far beyond perversion would arrive at such a judgment!
Your judgment OF God will be the evidence of your judgment FROM God. Call it myth all you want, but the only myth that exists in our contemporary world is that God does not exist. To add insult to injury is to say God exists but He’s a baby killer.
God bless you.
“ Is it God that tells 9 million people a year in America to commit abortions?” Why do you insist on quoting ridiculously inflated figures, is it to try and impress on us how shameful we non-Christians are? This sort of falsehood is however, in line with your beliefs. Is it God who controls everything on earth and knows what people are going to do before it happens anyway? So maybe free will is a lie and he has programmed certain people to commit abortions.
“wisdom of God” I can easily comprehend through logic and evidence what wisdom is and when something is a myth. Like I have said you are indoctrinated and it is simply all inside your head.
Baby killer, murderer, genocidal maniac or dictator, he has been called many things by many people who see him as a fictional character, please read your Bible properly and do not skip the parts you do not like. Only an indoctrinated blind emotional mind could read any sort of justification into criminal events.
Thank you for your response. It eas a pleasure. God bless.
that is not true. there have been many babies born who are and were saintly. read your own book! that you can even say that a baby is already a sinner and thus, deserves pain and suffering is insane!
and the fact that you can be so cold about it just kills me.
Would you be saying that if it was your child that died?
Good question. No one will ever know how it feels to loss a child until when they are affected.
So babies are already sinners in the womb? So when God creates a new human life, He creates a new sinner? Even years before the baby had the chance to actually commit its first sin. So God creates sinners and blames them that they sin. And therefore you deserve eternal damnation in hell…
Hi Ruben et al,
There are tens of thousands of Christian denominations and many of them are arrogant enough to think that their brand is the right one and the others are wrong. Some individuals unconnected to any church regard themselves as the only true Christians. This allows for an extremely diverse set of beliefs and for the existence of Christian sects unfettered with oppressive beliefs that babies are sinners in the womb. Indeed, some do not accept the concept of original sin that condemned all of Adam and Eve’s descendants to be born as sinners. Many Christians accept our evolutionary origins from a gene pool of about 10,000 individuals from Africa in preference to the Biblical creation story. Below is a link which may be of interest to you and some other readers:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
I’m reading some of these comments and it truly shows me how earthly minded people are. God tells us repeatedly in scriprure to focus on the eternal things and not the temporal things. I am not by any means trivializing the pain and grief that comes with the suffering of babies and children. While you guys are on the subject of babies, how about the 9 million abortions that happen yearly in America? Who’s responsible for that treachery? Is God to blame for that too?
What I see hear on these comments are plenty of unbelievers who are grasping at straws to give validity to their unbelief? The best you can do is use babies as your premise. Do you know that all serial killers, mass murderers, rapists, thiefs, and pedophiles were once babies too? Do you think that you have more love than God attains for His own creation? Would you allow your child to be brutally beaten, spit on, mocked, and nailed naked to a cross to save your enemies…the ones killing your child? Would you?
We lack the capacity to love like God but we gather the nerve to put God on trial as if we are the judge in some inverted way God needs to be somehow absolved of His actions. Can’t you see the utter blashpheme in such an act?
This fallen, sin cursed world is not our (believers) home. I read these comments and i see many Cains. When I say Cains I am referring to Cain and Abel. Cain was of the Earth and Abel was of the spirit. Hence, Cain bringing God something he fashioned from the Earth with his hands. He was Earthy. That’s what many of you are. Abel was of the spirit and obeyed and trusted what God prescribed. At the end Cain murdered his brother. Your minds are murdering the character of God.
When you guys carry the logic you have against God you are essentially committing the same abomination that Satan himself used to deceive Eve in the Garden. All the devil has to do is seduce you to not trust God and your sin nature and vile disposition will take care of the rest. Essentially, you’ll grow to hate God your ceeator, but then somehow justify yourself as a good person while harboring hate within. Can’t you see the irony in that?
Your brain, and mental accumen falls extremely short in deciphering the mysteries of God. I beseech all of you to reconsider your position and STOP assessing God’s character as if He was a man like you and I. The same rudiments or tools used to judge men are insinersted immediately when attempted to be used to judge the ULTIMATE JUDGE of the universe.
What i am hearing is that you can do a better job at being God than God can right? Based on the one subject of babies or children who suffer right? Correct me if I’m wrong, but is Earth supposed to be our heaven? The Bible in many occassions reiterates that mans days on Earth would be filled with trouble. God did not promise us a good life, what He does promise us is eternal life to those who place their faith and trust in His son Jesus Christ. God did not tell us to place our faith on the conditions of suffering babies and children. Sin is the cause for so much pain. What God allows is His business. Pain is the common and usual elixir to break the stony hearts of men to come crying to God. It turns the stony heart into a heart of flesh. A pliable heart that can grow spiritually with God by the work of the Holy Spirit.
STOP leaning to your own understanding. The Bible says that there is a way that seems right to a man but that way leads to destruction. Please….please don’t think yourself to be erudite with some gotch ya proposition to debunk God. God is either good or evil. If God is evil which is what is implied by your post and many other comments i read then the devil…Satan must be good. It makes perfect sense how the anti christ will come and deceive MANY. People will barter their souls to hell to remedy a temporal ill that God says will be completely eradicated once He creates a new heaven and a new Earth.
Put your trust and faith in God and His sovereignty! Don’t place your faith on yourself, because the Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9 that the heart is evil and desperately wicked. Renew your mind and be born again. Carrying this faulty logic about God is damning!
God does not need to explain anything to us. Why don’t i hear anyone asking why God even allows sinners to enter heaven? If God was just which He is, every single one of us would be in hell right now! We don’t want to talk about God’s redemptive act. That will make God look good. Let’s focus on suffering children and babies to create a mean, disconnected, impersonal god. God said He created man in His image. I think we have just returned the favor by creating god in our image by using fallen thought to surmise the essence of the one true God.
God bless.
ok, since whatever we do is ok and loved by god, why did he destroy s&g? why the flood? why did he try to right the world, if we are all accepted and loved, no matter what? why didn’t he just let it go, as he created it, instead of trying to ‘cleanse’ the world, as he did?
Good comment, Exodus.
Dear Exodus,
You have put your faith in a book of writings by men who wanted to say their own messages to anyone silly enough to take it seriously and some who wrote about their experiences not knowing that the accounts would be gathered into a book called the Holy Bible, which is very much a misnomer.
Most of the early Christians were illiterate and their belief was not based on the so-called scriptures. It was the Reformation in the sixteenth century that elevated the book to the status of an idol of worship and this was a reaction to the corruption of Roman Catholic Christianity, which allowed the rich to buy ‘indulgences’ and bishops to do whatever they liked. I suggest you read the book reviewed in the link below to gain a better understanding of how you fell into this foolish reverence for the Holy Bible:
I wish you enlightenment and peace and love to all humanity,
Dinos
Thank you for your response and taking the time to entertain and indulge me in my supposed ignorance.
My faith is not in any book written by mere men. My faith is in the word of God. Permit me please to explain.
No message of Scripture is a matter of one’s own inspiration. That is to say, Scripture does not come out of inspired men in the sense that some men are inspired because of some level of religious genius. “No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of origination in one’s own mind.” No message of Scripture comes out of any human source. That’s the idea. Men are not the origin of the content in scripture. The Bible is antithetical to human reasoning. Men don’t write books that condemn themselves. If the Bible was a book written by men, then men like you would believe it.
2 Peter verse 21 says, “ For no message was ever made by an act of human will.” Scripture is not the product of men. It is not the product of the will of men, but men moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God. Very clear and very vital. No message was ever made. It means to bear, carry along, convey, produce, bring forth, bring along. No message was ever conveyed, born, carried along, produced, brought forth by an act of human will, but men were born along, carried along, conveyed, brought forth by the Holy Spirit to speak from God. The Holy Spirit filled them. The idea is like putting your sails to the wind on a ship and being born along by the breeze. The Spirit of God moved them along, blew them along.
Now that tells us the process. The content of the Bible is revelation. The process by which that content was written down is called inspiration. It wasn’t a high level of human activity. It wasn’t even a high level of religious human activity. Men were in the process, but it didn’t originate with them. It didn’t come from their desire and their will. They were used as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit and enabled to speak from God. They spoke divine words. God use them. It was their personality. It was their background, some of their insights, their experiences, their perceptions, but every word was the Word of God. That’s the miracle of inspiration.
Men, they were used, carried along by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God. That’s what the Scripture says. So when you pick up a Bible, you’re not reading the word of men. You’re reading the Word of God that was written by men who were moved along in the process by the power of the Holy Spirit, not apart from their personalities, and not apart from their experiences, and not apart from their vocabulary, and not apart from their heart, passion, and compulsion. But integrating all of that into the power of the Spirit of God and never compromising the truth that every word came from God: a great and glorious miracle. So vital.
So, God spoke in the Old Testament to the fathers by the prophets in many ways and in many portions. God has spoken in the New Testament by His Son in the gospels, and then about His Son in the rest of the New Testament. The process by which God gave us that revelation is inspiration. Inspiration was God putting His revelation in, as it were, the hands of men to be written down. First, to be spoken and proclaimed, and then written down as they were energized, carried along by the Holy Spirit. Men were used, and yet no Word of God was ever violated. The totality of Scripture all Scripture, every Scripture is, God-breathed. It is the breath of God, the writing of Scripture.
Most of early Christians were not illitetate. During the Spanish Inquisition (crusades) when Roman Cathlolicism persecuted Christians, they simply kept the scriptures away from people and only allowed the priests to handle the scriptures. Roman catholicism was a perversion of Christianity that infused many Roman pagan practices into Christianity.
The scriptures and their ealier manuscripts were already fixed thats why the Roman Catholics marginalized the scriptures by trying to add human works to faith. The Bible says by faith alone is what saves but RC’s perverted the gospel by adding sacriments, prayer to other saints, and the deifying of Mary. The Bible is not an extraction from Roman Catholic perversion. R Catholicism is a distorted truth from the inerancy and infalibility of scripture.
God bless.
Dear Exodus,
I have posted many comments on this website and you could find out why I do not believe that the Bible contains words that are “God-breathed”, as you put it, if you read some of them, so I would not need to repeat myself.
I never stated that you were ignorant in my previous post to you. Please try and stay with the facts. I expressed my view that the Bible was written by men, and you have not contradicted me; God did not write the Bible Himself. You have shown that you are not ignorant since you have quoted from the Bible. Where we disagree is whether somehow all the writers were writing only God-breathed words. There is no evidence for this; it is a faith-based belief. The words in the Bible cannot be used to somehow prove that they were God-breathed, but they have been explored by serious Theologians who have found that some of the words used described things that did not exist at the time they were written! Theologians discovered anachronisms within the texts that suggest additions or forgeries.
Some of your post simply isn’t true. You wrote, “Men don’t write books that condemn themselves. If the Bible was a book written by men, then men like you would believe it.” Things aren’t so black and white as you suggest. I expect that some of the Bible has some historical accuracy and worth, but I do not believe that all of humanity was descended from Adam and Eve; nor do I believe that Adam, if he existed, lived to the age of 930 years!
I’ve read lots of books and have reflected that some were unbelievable, like one that suggested that The Philadelphia Experiment was based on scientific facts. I’ve also read several autobiographies. The information contained within them was not always verifiable, but to suggest that people don’t write books that condemn themselves does not apply to all authors. Russell Brand provided an account of himself that made me feel sick of him, in his first book. A link to a review is given below:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/nov/25/biography.features
Rather than reproduce some of my previous comments, I have provided a couple of links that indicate, to a good extent, most but not all, of what I have thought, prior to reading their articles:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/sins-of-the-father/
Click to access Did_Paul_write_Timothy_or_Titus.pdf
I don’t want to contradict everything you’ve written, but I must point out that I was thinking of Christians in the first century A.D., when I referred to most of the early Christians being illiterate. There was no formal education at that time and only the educated rich or privileged, had access to written material of any kind, let alone scriptural manuscripts. It wasn’t until 1456 A.D. that the first printed book, the Gutenberg Bible, containing the Latin text, was printed. Below is a link to a timeline that I think you’ll find useful, if you haven’t seen it before:
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
You may wish to scroll down to the part that deals with the Bible Translation History at the end.
Do you have any interest in the book on the Reformation by Andrew Atherstone that I recommended in my previous post, or do you consider the Bible the only book worth reading?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Dino
I’m very impressed by the wealth of information you have concerning this subject.
I agree with you when you stated, “There is no evidence for this; it is a faith-based belief.” Your rational mind and mental aptiude said something in that extracted quote from your post. It shows me how insightful you are. You’ll be amazed in how many unbelievers I speak to who couldn’t come to that conclusive statement that you made.
Your statement is affirmed in the scripture when the Bible says in Hebrews 11:6 Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Dino, I absolutely agree with you. Its faith from above that permitts me of such a divine privelage to believe in God and His revelatory message. This is not some self manufactured faith. I’m sinful and there is nothing good in me. Outside of divine intervention i would be impotent in any self generated effort to know God on a personal level through His son Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit.
If it took human effort, human rationale, and self professed theologians to decipher the mystery of God’s revelation then man would be accredited with the award of being inciteful and intellectually savvy. Man would have the opportunity to boast of his faith. The Bible also affirms this when it says, ” Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
In other words it’s impossible to exercise the human faculties in trying to decipher divine supernatural truth. How can the natural mind unscrew the intricate bolts of a supernatural being? Can an infant with an infantile mind grasp the totality of adult reasoning? Can man with his limited capacity to absorb omniscience and the omnipresent nature of God and be skillful enough to know God on a personal level? The answer is no. The usual response to the proclamation of the gospel is denial. It’s common for most men to deem the work of Christ on the cross as foolishness.
1 Corinthians 1:20- 21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
The elite, the experts, the intellectuals have a wisdom that falls severely short in knowing God. The world perceives the BIble and its contents foolish, but it pleased God to use the foolishness of the Bible and preaching to save those that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:27
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Dino, all of your research and alleged facts no matter how well intended will never be enough to cause you to believe the Bible. As a matter of fact it will do more in preventing you to come to it. I don’t know how two people can see a blue sky and arrive at the same conclusion saying that the sky is blue, but when two people are given the Bible you will see a split in how each individual perceives and receives the content within scripture.
It goes to show that faith is given to those God elected for glory. They are the only ones who can believe. People don’t believe because they can’t believe. Its not about evidence…it’s about faith. Knowing that a God exists and knowing what that God expects are two totally different things. Its only by the provenient grace of God that i place my faith in the word of God.
God bless Dino.
Exodus. Simple and logical answer is that Dino is not indoctrinated into an ideology like you are. I am sure you have read the concept of indoctrination and you may even help perform this process yourself. If so, I just hope it is not on children.
I agree with your article. I want to believe in God but can’t. From the numerous churches that I have attended, they say “pray to God, that he will make a change in your life”, etc. ok, for me. I choose to believe and things get better for me. What about that battered baby, or the abused and neglected dog or cat? Do they also have to believe? What if they can’t comprehend? They suffer. I don’t understand how that is a loving God. I don’t understand the purpose of innocents suffering.
This response is not to dissuade you from your decision. I am a sinner. I hold no power over you. My passion for Jesus Christ is what compels me to respond to you. When i am moved by the Holy Spirit I respond. God will hold me accountable for what I did with His word and God will also hold you accountable with what you did with what He has revealed to you.
God’s kingdom is not of this world. This world is cursed due to the degenerative effect of sin. That’s why we all eventually die. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20). Sickness and disease are all infused within the curse. Death is the monarch of man. There are TWO things certain in life; death and judement. Hebrews 9:27 says, “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”
Suffering is built into the fabric of life. We are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. Essentially what you have is a bunch of sinners living within a cursed and fallen environment. Bad things happening are inevitable.
Against popular rheteoric God is not the ruler of this world. Satan is. It’s says in 1 John 5:19 that “We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” God has sovereign rule but the evil one Satan has corrupted every soul. He has made us lovers of self and haters of God. Satan has succeeded in creating an environment that accentuates the depravity of our debased minds.
Man is a worshipper at heart. Dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Our innerbeing known as our spirit is and was made to worship. You can see people worshipping themselves as atheist who dismiss a concept of God but make themselves their own god. You see people in false worship fall prey to rituals and traditions (human works and achievement) in a vain attempt to have a good standing with God. You have worshippers who worship their intellect and put their human rationale above all things and deem themselves erudite and wise. You have people who read tons of books and are enveloped with knowledge but lack the spiritual knowledge of God. They love their thinking and idoloze informatuon and subdue the truth of God. Finally, you have worshippers who feel that a God exist but rely on thier moral effort in the form of self righteousness to get into heaven. Those are the people who say, “I am a good person.”
People speak of being indoctrinated with teachings when it comes to religion. But the world apart from religion attains its own doctrine as well. It’s called self! Satan has devised a million and one ways to lure the soul from God into utter destruction in hell (death is not the end. All those babies who have died by abortions or ill acts of men will be in heaven with God) Any message, any philosophy, or ideology that slanders the character of God and undermines His sovereignty is of the devil. You don’t have to bow your knee to Satan and worship him…No. Just simply deny God and by default you are on his (Satan’s) side.
You see, man is born to glorify God but along the way man begins to rely on his fallen mind to judge the judge of the universe. It’s like a new born baby putting his parents on trial to question them. Does the baby know more than the parents? Can’t you see the arrogance and utter blashpeme in man balling up his fist at God to question His love. It’s by God’s grace alone that we are still alive. Man has become his own god and now questions the true God. God in due time will render and answer to every soul that denied Him. I say that to say, do we as humans know more than God? We have to trust God and stop using the operations of a cursed world to dismiss God.
Adam and Eve sinned then ran and hid from God. Man has been running from God ever since. What did God do? God did not kill them. NO! He pursued the sinners as He does today to save man from his sins. He found Adam and Eve and covered their nakedness. Only in a Satanic world would people adopt an inverted logic as to say God is evil. So if God is evil, who is good? Us? We are the sinners not God. God allowed His sinless son Jesus to take our penalty of death that came from sin. Just as Jesus rose from the dead so will we. God treats Jesus the way He should have treated us and treats us the way He should have treated Jesus. Its called imputed righteousness. Righteousness is accredited to us while our sins are placed on Jesus when He died for those who will believe. God had to satisfy His justice. God would seise from being God if He did not punish sin. His moral character would be questioned. Synonymous to a judge who allows a murderer to go free when the killer has all of the evidence stacked against him. Video footage shows the man killing someone. But the judge lets him go. Would you consider that judge a good judge? Off course you wouldn’t. God MUST punish sin.
God in one act by giving His son Jesus to us accomplishes two things. It shows His love and shows His hate for sin. We are given a righteousness we do not earn or deserve. Its by faith. God never promised a good life, what He does promise is eternal life in heaven for those who believe. We will not always understand everything on this side of reality but we do know that their is purpose in suffering. The proper teaching of the Gospel is not to evade suffering. I don’t know what those churches were teaching you but i pray the spirit of God gets a hold of you and reveals to you what the true Gospel is about.
Until we truly understand the severe ramifications of sin, we will never fully grasp the concept of God. When i say sin, i am talking about our own individual lives.
God bless you Bethany. Don’t give up on God because He hasnt given up on you.
Our human mind will never be able to believe in God logically because even the existence of this incredible universe is not comprehensive despite all the discoveries and how you can literaly see all the images taken of stars, planets, galaxies, and how the man itself has been able to visit the moon and see with his own eyes a molecule of this unexplicable universe. Because of our limited mind, I am convinced that if God itself comes in person with all his glory and stand in front of us and shows us the universe and explain every thing that doesnt make sense, we would end up assuming we are turning schizophrenics but our mind simply can not process the wonder of a creator. Therefore, I dont even try to understand why all these bad things happen because life itelf is a mistery. I do know there is a God creator, I do know God is not a bad God (because he has proven to me he is merciful and thoughful) but the fact he has proven to me his kindness, still doesnt make me understand the evil in this world nor will I try to understand it. The creation is a mistery and no one has ever discovered a mistery by logic but by searching and getting closer to the source of Mistery which to me is GOD.
That truly appears to be an illogical way to think. I do agree that many things are a mystery to us, however this will never always be this way due to scientific advancement etc. just as has happened from when early man started to ask scientific questions of the natural events that happened in the real world.
The reason you believe we “cannot process the wonder of a creator” and because you state “I don’t even try to understand why all these bad things happen because life itself is a mystery”. This I believe is easy for you to accept without much effort and it eliminates reality and the possibility it may be contrary to your ideology.
Hell, if everybody had the same attitude as you do, we would still be in the dark ages. Our minds are not limited as you have suggested, we have a lot more to learn and build on what we already know to be real.
I do not understand your bias attitude, you seem to know a lot about a good god who has proven to be merciful and thoughtful to you, but obviously when all these bad things happen such as the 20,000 starving and diseased children who die every day or a cyclone wipes out a whole community it is an evil mystery in this world and you will not even try to understand it. I think you must look at what we positively do know as real life events and not write off bad things as superstitious evil mysteries.
Your assertion “The creation is a mystery and no one has ever discovered a mystery by logic”. Is mostly incorrect, we have a very good idea how the planet evolved and life developed and evolved on it from both indisputable scientific evidence and logical deductions. Please get yourself a science book and educate yourself and maybe a spell checker might be a good idea as well.
Best wishes and wisdom to guide you from here.
Evolution goes against rationality! Nothing times nothing doesn NOT equate to something. Every effect had a cause. You may deem yourself to be an ancestor of a monkey but i am not. The natural order had a supernatural cause. That supernatural cause is God.
The teleogical design of the universe with its complex intricacies and intelligent design speaks of a creator. Intelligent design means their is purpose in the created order. Order doesn’t come from choas. You can blow up thousands of pieces of scrap metal and will never form a a sophisticated Boeing 747 plane. You need a designer. The natural rudiments of law speak to a creator behind anything with a design. The proof of a creator is all around you.
How far will you go to persuade yourself that there is no God? Fine, you think the Bible is false. You think Jesus is a myth. But to arrive at evolution as your premise to convey the origin of life is nonsensical.
Evolution? Seriously? Studies have shown (real science) that over time species lose over time. There’s a decline. The second law of thermodynamics…the law of entropy says that things lose over time. There are no examples of a new species (new creatures) evolving from its kind into another kind. First they said the univers is millions of years old. They have to arrive at such numbers to give their erroneous theories a chance. Through out history no one has seen anything evolve or been witness to it. Now Scientist are saying the universe has been here Billions of years. Soon, they’ll move it to trillions of years to render crdulity to such a bizzare proposition as evolution.
You have theories that can not be proven and men who desire to eliminate the idea of a God who call themselves scientist will arrive at decadence and depravity to form his or her own reality.
People say Christians are stupid for believing in God. If we are stupid, then ask yourself this, “How stupid is the individual who places his/her eternal fate on things being here from absolutely nothing. ” Nothing does NOT come from nothing. Only reprobate mind as God says would say there is no God.
The argument that “Something can’t come from nothing” has already been debunked. Here is just one link: https://argumentsagainstreligion.com/2012/12/27/the-problem-with-something-cant-come-from-nothing/
Also, I think you meant descendant instead of ancestor, but you’ve still got the premise wrong. Evolution doesn’t say we evolved from apes. Humans are primates. Apes and monkeys are primates. We have a common ancestor. Again, just one link: https://ladyfreethinker.org/humans-didnt-evolve-from-apes/
And the reason why scientists keep revising the age of the earth? They keep making new discoveries and then change their data so that it is correct, or at least more accurate and updated. This is what religion fails to do. Religion proceeds from fixed ideas from long ago (from people who didn’t know much of anything about science, the world, the universe, human nature,etc.) and then refuses to accept new evidence that contradicts anything in their holy books.
Well done Viva!
Your piece was well-written, supported and concise.
I agree with what you’ve written. I would have said that new science revises previous conclusions rather than data as it might suggest that scientists alter their empirical evidence to suit their hypotheses. I suppose that some may actually do this but it’s not in the spirit of true science. I suspect that it might apply more to Pharmaceuticals.
One problem I have with some Christians is when they refer to all humans as sinners, based on the story of Adam and Eve’s original disobedience. They ignore the obvious contradiction that we are said to have been created, “…in our own image.” Since God is considered to be omnibenevolent, how could Adam and Eve be persuaded to sin? The apologetics answer contradictions of this sort but each answer leads to another contradiction.
Another problem I have is with Christians who preach that if we do God’s will and believe in Christ we shall be saved, but if we do not we shall be eternally damned. If this were true then God is not giving us an unconditional choice. If we believe for passage to heaven we are merchants; if we believe to avoid damnation we are servants.
All of this kind of preaching causes ill feelings to other humans. If people must believe in a good God it would be better to believe in the immanent goodness of humanity!
The links below are mainly for “Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura” Christians and they are worth a read as they dispel some of the Biblical misunderstandings and they are scripturally based:
http://frimmin.com/faith/belief.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticalheart.php
http://frimmin.com/books/gospelofthomas.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticismstart.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php
I hope that some of the dogmatic Christians who describe us all as “sinners” will take the time to read some articles provided bt these links.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
You phrased it better. I wrote my piece rather quickly. 😉
Also, this: http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.129746312.2254/mp,550×550,gloss,ffffff,t.3u3.jpg
Exodus. Your argument is flawed and exactly the same one used by apologetics every time they need to find an easy answer. You are comparing the animal biological system to an airplane and this makes your proposition unreasonable as there is no commonality at all.
This cause regarding the beginning of life that you speak of may not yet be fully understood by science, however it has plainly not been abandoned and attributed to a god. The seed of life may have indeed been planted on our planet by another life form or delivered by a meteorite unknown to us but this concept has also not been attributed to any gods.
Evolution has been proven and supported by over 90% of scientists (some religious) for over 100 years to the point of beyond doubt, it is as real as life itself, how long will it take before blind religiously indoctrinated people stop believing it is not reality?
From what you write I can see you are beyond any rational discussion regarding scientific evidence as you obviously are in the camp of conspiracy theories. You elevate your reasoning and false beliefs without evidence over accepted scientific evidence and facts to fit into your personal ideology.
If you are going to argue that scientists are trying to eliminate god, please just don’t waste our time.
Dear Exodus,
Your venture into Mathematics and Physics is imprudent.
Nothing as a nought involves a concept that represented by ‘0’, which is not regarded as a number in the normal sense, as {1,2,3,…..} and {-1,-2,-3,…..} are.
In the physical world, IF you are trying to say something cannot come from nothing, then I can refer you to the following link that shows that something DOES indeed come from nothing:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-virtual-particles-rea/
And below is an extract:
Gordon Kane, director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, provides this answer.
Virtual particles are indeed real particles. Quantum theory predicts that every particle spends some time as a combination of other particles in all possible ways. These predictions are very well understood and tested.
Quantum mechanics allows, and indeed requires, temporary violations of conservation of energy, so one particle can become a pair of heavier particles (the so-called virtual particles), which quickly rejoin into the original particle as if they had never been there. If that were all that occurred we would still be confident that it was a real effect because it is an intrinsic part of quantum mechanics, which is extremely well tested, and is a complete and tightly woven theory–if any part of it were wrong the whole structure would collapse.
Were you trying to posit that the universe must have been created? It is better to stick to what you know, the scriptures of the Bible than to venture into realms where your knowledge is limited in order to express a point metaphorically.
I hope you understand that you are probably alienating more readers towards Christianity than you are attracting them to it. We have a tendency to defend our opinions as though we are defending ourselves. This is a discussion forum, not a contest to see whose opinion can prevail. If you feel wounded by some one’s post, you have the choice to turn the other cheek. Where is the love for your neighbours?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
God bless you Dino!
I wash my hands clean. I am finished with this conversation. I have done what God has asked of me to do. That is to proclaim His truth.
Peace!
For some reason, christians run far away from my questions. Maybe because they are afraid of the truth, anything that threatens their faith (faith is not truth) or are unable to answer them. Anyway, I’m glad I didn’t write the book!
How about this Exodus….God is going to hell. He has sinned. He violated our free will and sent billions to hell without their permission. What goes around comes around. God is in for a brutal hell. lol see you can turn it around on him too, and it still remains just as much nonsense as claiming a good person goes to hell, cuz they inherited sin, from a dude disobeying god. God knew his children(creation) would disobey. Sin was part of god’s plan. Therefore God is 100% responsible and must reap what he sowed.
Dear Exodus,
Thank you for showing wisdom in your decision to finish the conversation on this forum. If you want to continue it on another forum, may I suggest:
https://realasthestreets.org/
Peace and love to you,
Dinos
Good Morning,
When I found this blog, I was looking for a specific topic and got to read your entire writing. Even though I didnt agree with most of the arguments, I felt motivated to participate because I didnt find your words offensive, sarcastic or intentionally directed to minimize the Christian faith but to my impression, you were just simply expressing your points of view, however, this last reply denotes some anger and you also used unnecessary criticism by pointing out my spelling which by the way, it is because as you probably noticed, English is not my first language and I am still learning the language. I write from a cellular by the way with no option to check spelling. I think my comment was very understandable any ways and thats what matters but I wanted to remind you (because I am sure you know this): A healthy debate is free of sarcasm and unnecessary critissism otherwise you lose participants.
Every thing that the human believe in regards to creation is by faith, whether you are a religious person or an atheist. We have not met the person that was there at the time the moon , the sun, the starts, the dinosaurs, the universe itself was being created therefore every thing that we dont see with our own eyes is believed by faith, even the existance of Jesus who indeed existed because is written in the history, is believed by faith and faith is something that comes from God that will only be given to a humble heart ; faith wont be given to the altive person who is eager to critizise God but wont do any thing to help the starving children or whatever it is that you can do to bring a benefit to our projime.
Also, the fact I said I dont even pretend to understand why evil happens, doesnt mean I dont care about children starving to death or that I dont care if this world falls apart, I do, but I can only do what I can do and discovering the misteries of this life is not something I can do. What I can do is what I Actually do which is to patrocinate 2 children in Indonesia via World Vision and try to help poor people near me as I can, for instance a widow lady that sometimes has no money to pay for her electric, etc. Mentioning my good charities is not correct biblically but I think just for this time, it is worth mentioning to prove my point.
I am not a scientific so I can not go to the moon or work in the investigation field to figure out who we are and where we come from, but I can help others as I do and this is to me “the reality” , what makes the difference and if all of us help hungry children, we wouldnt have to be questioning whether God is indifferent to these tragedies. At the end, we are his hands, his eyes, his legs and we were called to help each other but we dont. So whether you are a scientist contributing to our world by investigating or a simple person who helps those in need, the important part is to do something productive. What are you doing to contribute with our world? Whatever you do, never cease. Our contributions are the one that will make a better world.
And yes I believe in God as a creator not because I have seen him but because he has given me faith to believe and the faith he has given me is not simply a pack of faith deposited in the middle of my chest out of the sudden but its a combination of trials, fails, sins, sorrows, and tears that he have used to proof his existance. God doesnt just give faith in one minute, He doesnt like magic to build a genuine person ,He doesnt like Robots.
Please forgive me if I have said something that sounded rude or offensive. Like I said English is not my first language.
Marleny. I have no idea about your language skills and because you repeated the word “mystery” incorrectly so many times I felt like I should comment as tactfully as I could. If you perceived my comment as sarcasm you are incorrect but if I have offended you, I apologise. I am no expert, however if you are learning the English language you do very well from what I read but remember confirming spelling with a dictionary is a good way to learn.
You say “Everything that the human believe in regards to creation is by faith, whether you are a religious person or an atheist.” Definitely an incorrect statement, religions such as yours are based on faith and it is supported by ancient scripture. Atheists rely on evidence, facts, logical and rational assessments from what they know is real, and have the capability to change their minds as new information becomes available, therefore the difference between theists and atheists could not be further apart.
Take a minute to understand this. It will never be any god or deity who will stop the children from suffering it will only be science and ordinary people like you and I. Science has already saved multiple billions of lives through medicine and food production along with multiple billions of dollars provided every year by tax payers around the world to assist in food distribution etc. That is the reality of life, do not try to make excuses for the lack of help from a god.
Your faith is just like all the other religious believers, it usually grows stronger over time. Why is this? It is because the ideological information is fed regularly if not repetitiously into your brain and the more you are fed the more faith you obtain. You believe it is a divine faith because you have been concocted to believe in Bible stories and in an exclusive faith that your God is a reality. This is a catch 22 for you believers and this changed state of mind is called indoctrination with the most common result being impossible to reverse for many if not most people who want to leave their religion.
And by the way, nothing to forgive, you have never offended me but thanks for the thought anyway.
No worries SKLYJD. I do get sensitive when my English Skills are diminished in any way, maybe because in my native language, I have always enjoyed a great grammatical and spelling skills and I take pride on that. I am sure I have to be less conceited with my skills and need to learn modesty. On the other subject, what could I say after every thing Exodus has posted? I think you should at least give one chance to God and in the secret silence of your soul, ask him to reveal to you what He really is and if He does exist. If you instantly refuse to even try that, then you are putting yourself like Exodus said, away from him and there is nothing else to be said or done.
God bles you Marleny!
Thank you Exodus. God bless you too.
Dear Marleny,
Thank you for your thoughts.
It’s not for me to dissuade you from your belief in God; it must be a comfort to you despite the grief we experience in relatively wealthy Christian countries and the grief we inflict on Muslim countries! Belief in God in predominantly Christian countries has no bearing on who suffers, and to what extent unless your belief leads you to a life of sacrifice.
I do not feel the need to assign the mystery of creation to a God, especially one with all the attributes: Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence. For a more detailed description of the attributes that Christians have assigned to Him you may enjoy the info provided in the link below:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/attributes-of-god.htm
There is no need to magnify God and diminish the power and imagination of the human mind. If you believe, then we were made in God’s image and we know the difference between good and evil. That explains for believers why we are like Gods ourselves, and if you’re curious as to how evil came to exist, you need to look no further than the KJV of the Bible:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Is God really Omnibenevolent?
For a more detailed look at what I think it means to believe in God, you could scroll up to my last post to Exodus that begins:
dinoconstant says:
December 29, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Dear Exodus,
I have posted many comments on this website and you could find out why I do not believe that the Bible contains words that are “God-breathed”, as you put it, if you read some of them, so I would not need to repeat myself.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Dino,
Good Morning and thank you for your polite point of view. What makes a debate interesting is the diversity of opinions among other facts.
I just wanted to mention this:
When I say that I dont even try to understand why evil things happen, I am not saying I am indiferent to suffering and pain. On my last response I mentioned some of the charities I usually practice which I wont mention again because I know it is not moraly right to praise our good actions and I only mentioned it, like I said on my prior response, to prove my point.
I do care for those suffering by all means so I rather act and do something about it than spending all my life trying to understand what I will not understand. Like I said, the universe is a wonder that simply doesnt fit in my imagination. Maybe I am not very smart, or maybe I am too smart and thats why. Revelations Chapter 10, reads: “And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not”
Even in the Bible you can find mistery and if someone doesn’t believe in the Bible then that means nothing to them but I used the example as I do believe in the Bible as the word of God to us.
So interesting how each religion believes in its own book and its own God. The day will come when every thing will not be by faith any more and on that day, the entire world will know who was our creator.
So whether you believe or not in a God, in evolution, in Big Bang, or you simply dont believe, please, please, please, obey at least your conscience and never try to shut her voice off, do good to others, help the poors, dont judge, and live your life in a way that when your final day comes, you have no remorses because if we were given a conscience, then it should have a purpose, just like our hearts have a purpose and the day it stops beating, we die. The purpose of our conscience is to feel compassion and treat others exactly as we would like others to treat us, and PS: this goes to me as well. This is the reality and nothing else. My point of view of course.
Thank you Dino for mentioning me in your comments.
I want to quickly respond to the verse of Isaiah 45:7 used to indict God with being evil.
No. God is not evil. Scripture says that when God finished His creation, He saw everything and declared it “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: “God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone” (James 1:13). “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5). “God is not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33)—and if that is true, He cannot in any way be the author of evil.
Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) and claim it proves God made evil as a part of His creation: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (emphasis added).
But the New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: “There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.” In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil.
Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature.
Thanks Dino, and God bless.
it all belongs to God. He can kill us all if He desires. He loved us. Past tense. If we reject His son we must pay the price. Case closed.
Amen.
Psalms 2:12
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish
from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.
What we do with Jesus will seal out erternal state! When God is angry just a little His wrath is felt. Deny the son and you’ll see the wrath and fury in full form..
Just because you create something, this does not give you permission to mistreat it. In fact, it obligates you all the more to care for it.
And if you KNOW that most of your creation will end up being tortured for eternity, you simply don’t create them. Case closed.
500Q
God has the prerogative to do whatever He wants and whatever He pleases. Case closed. Those who go to hell for eternity will give God glory because hell and judgment speak to the righteousness of God. A righteous God must punish sin.
Those who enter heaven also will give God glory because entering heaven puts God’s loving attributes on display. It puts His mercy and grace on display.
God is loving and He will eliminate ANYTHING that threatens what He loves. God has His elect chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). Just like any loving father with children would do whatever he can to protect them and even go as far as destroying anything that threatens his children. Because God loves totally, He aso hates totally. We are God’s children; engrafted into the kingdom by the work of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. By faith we believe.
We believe not because we have anything in us to believe but because God chose us. We are the image of God for we were all created in His image. God will anihalate anything that comes against His image. All Cains who persecute Abels will be punished. All unbelivers will be punished, all God haters and God deniers will be punished. Those are God’s words not mine.
People are so fixated on attacking the Bible. Why? Because the message is narrow. Not inclusive and speaks to the depravity of men. Jesus testifies against the world and the world hates it. An antithetical message doesn’t sit well to a cursed world. People are trying to cocncoct rational arguments wrought from fallen human logic (compared to the mind of God) to debunk a supernatural force…diety. Not because the idea of God doesn’t make sense but because they love their sin. Self righteousness…thinking you are okay and good enough to not need God. So God gives men up to a reprobate (useless) mind. Your inability to not believe, believe it or not is judgment from God (Romans 1:28).
You will NOT believe because you can NOT believe.
God bless.
“God has the prerogative [sic] to do whatever He wants and whatever He pleases. Case closed. Those who go to hell for eternity will give God glory because hell and judgment speak to the righteousness of God. A righteous God must punish sin.”
Case closed? Not so fast.
A righteous God wouldn’t HAVE to punish sin, if NONE existed. So why create it? There is no glory in creating men, only to cause them to suffer, so you can make some hollow point about how righteous you are. That’s just an insecure dick-move. A righteous God doesn’t create these men to begin with, or destroys them when he’s done.
I have no problem with punishing people for evil deeds, but eternal punishment is excessive, and only serves to prove my point.
You make excuses for God that amount to nothing more than a justification of “might makes right!” God should not be exempt from ethical behavior simply because he is God. If God admitted to being evil, would you still serve him? Simply because he was the creator? Perhaps out of fear that he might punish you? What does that say about you?
“You will NOT believe because you can NOT believe.”
Let me tell you why that excuse sucks.
Having been a Christian for over 30 years, I too am guilty of thinking “I’M not wrong, it’s OTHERS who are deceived, evil, fools, or not ‘one of the elect!’. But such a statement is a worthless argument, because it can never be falsified, and ANY believer in ANY god could use the same excuse for why YOU refuse to believe in HIS God. It’s an argument that only works if you already believe, but it’s not going to convince anyone else.
Respectfully,
500Q
Bravo! Or let’s put it this way: If you have children, or pets, is it your right to mistreat or kill them because they’re yours? Well, no, because we have laws against that. People go to jail for breaking those laws.
But they don’t go to jail forever.
And nobody, NOBODY, deserves to suffer forever in hell no matter what they’ve done. After a few million, billion years of torment, one would think that even Hitler or Pol Pot would get the message. But the torment will never ends. What is the point of that? What purpose does it serve? They can’t learn a lesson if the suffering never stops. It’s just sadism if it’s endless.
It would make more sense to annihilate someone than to send them to hell for all eternity.
And here’s a real mind-boggler: If Anne Frank was an unsaved Jew, then logically she had to go to hell so she could roast on a spit next to Hitler. Ironic much?
“I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..” — A. Hitler
Maybe Hitler is in heaven — even more ironic. 🙂
500Q
You were a Christian for 30 years? I’m sorry but you were NEVER a Christian. A Christian is one who remains until the end.
1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
You were never a Christian. Who can escape the grip of God once He has regenerated you? God is not inept that His saving power be impotent. Those He saves He saves. No vascilation of any sort. Salvation does not hinge on the ingenuity of the sinners will. Spiritually dead people can’t save themselves.
You being a Chtistian lies on the same parrellel as Judas saying he was a follower of Christ. Yeah….he follwed Jesus only to betray Him. What you have committed is apostasy. Judas had 3 years with Jesus and came to his costly conclusion. You had 30 years. How much severe do you think your judgment will be if Judas (according to scripture) went to his own place in hell (Acts 1:25). Judas is the son of perdition. Unreedemable! Such a tragic end to a hopeful begining.
Your blasphemies are bold. You elect to bring down the God of the universe and put Him on trial to question ethics. God is the moral absolute and the standard. God is ethics personified. Just because your impotent mind (no offense) compared to God can’t figure out your environments and rationalize the ills of the world shouldn’t be an erroneous prerequisite to lable God as evil.
Exodus,
All I can do is speak to is my own experience. I was raised Christian, I WAS Christian, as evidenced by the gift of speaking in tongues (which was important evidence to us Pentecostals, but admittedly not so much to other groups). I loved God with all my heart, soul, and mind, and I always put God first in all things.
Now, if you want to say to me, “My book says if you ever stop believing, you were never a believer,” well, you can believe that if it helps you sleep at night. But I think it’s just another argument used to reassure believers that those who walk away haven’t just figured something out. And again, ANYONE following ANY religion could make the same claim (e.g. “If you leave Islam, you were never a true Muslim!” or “If you leave Scientology, you were never a true Scientologist!” or “If you don’t like Jar Jar Binks, you were never a true Star Wars fan!”).
For me, I know that it felt very real to me at the time, and I was as in love with God as anyone. I NEVER thought I’d be on the other side of this argument. In fact, my original desire was to minister to people online, to show them how it was more reasonable to have faith than to doubt. But after much sincere research, I had to face the surprising fact that the better arguments were actually on the OTHER side. Emotionally, as much as I wanted to remain a Christian, it really didn’t make logical sense. (I could give you 500 reasons why, but the extremist will always find excuses for everything.)
Christianity (ironically) is the real one teaching what “itching ears want to hear,” not so much the skeptic. No one wants to hear how NOTHING happens after they die, or that their loved ones are dead and gone forever, or that there’s no God above who loves them, or wants to give them a MANSION when they die! These are all very comforting ideas, and if you want to believe them, go right ahead.
Still, it does concern me when Christianity, or any religion of “peace,” devalues the “out group” to the extent that torturing them forever seems entirely acceptable… somehow. This is the same kind of righteous extremist nonsense that allows some Muslims to justify killing or torturing others, or causes Christians to shoot up abortion clinics. So believe whatever you want, just don’t harm others who disagree, because you never know what you’ll believe tomorrow.
So I’ll end it with that, as this discussion really doesn’t relate to the suffering of children.
Hope you find your heaven,
500Q
A righteous God did not create sin. Since sin does exist, God will punish it and eliminate to totally to never have it erupt again. God is patiently waiting for all of His elect to repent. Righteousness is not based from your personal perspective or finite fallen reasoning. You are approaching deity as if God was a mere man as you and I. What do you know about righteousness? Everything God does is righteous. God doesn’t do something because it is righteous. Righteousness is defined by what God does. In other words every act of God is righteous. God is the absolute standard of righteousness. You haven’t been alive for a century but you feel pompous and arrogant enough to define what righteousness is to God who is an infinite being without an end or a beginning. Even the air you breath that gives you the capacity to speak such blasphemy is from God. Why does God allow any sinner to be alive should be the question. If the penalty of sin is death why aren’t we all dead in hell? Do yo really want God to display his righteousness? His righteousness decrees that all evil should be punished, yet God is patient displaying His love mercy and grace to those who will come and receive the gift of redemption in His son Jesus Christ. Man is unable to redeem himself. God has the remedy and He freely gives it and we receive it by faith.
God created men good and desired a relationship with them. When sin came into the world is separated man from God. Jesus is that bridge that allows man to come to God. There’s only ONE name under heaven’s and Earth that will allow man to see God and that name is Jesus Christ. God was faced with a choice. Destroy every sinner and send all of humanity to hell or deliver a plan to redeem man from his sin. A plan that will glorify HIm, a plan that would bring honor, glory, and worship to His son, and the glorification of man. God chose the latter.
When man is saved He gives glory to God. When man rejects and hates God and receives justice from his rejection God is glorified because He is just to punish evil. Isn’t it just and righteous to render to the sinner what he so desperately wanted during his life on Earth. If the sinner wants nothing to do with God who seeks to redeem him; that would imply that the fallen man wants the same judgment set for the demons, fallen angels and Lucifer. You see, you can only fully embrace God’s love until you understand the “excessive” hate toward evil. Yes hell forever is excessive to the human perspective but God does supply a way to escape it by being the sacrifice for you and me. He died for us. He paid the penalty that you nor I could pay by entering humanity as man to win back His elect form the hands of Satan. God made the law, we broke it, but He pays the penalty for the law we broke. How is that not loving. We don’t deserve his love. Why? Because while we were sinning and loving our sin and hating God He gave His son for us. That’s true love without condition.
Satan doesn’t care about you or I. We are nothing but pawns in his attack against God. He desires to effect God by luring souls to hell with teachings, doctrines, and heretical reasoning.
Eternal punishment is excessive according to who? What’s excessive is to live everyday of your life denying your creator. That’s what’s excessive. Hell was never made for man.
The spirit of Cain is alive and well. It’s called the spirit of disobedience. There are many who are in that spiritual lineage. They are many and they hate God and do their best to dethrone His lordship. The spirit of Abel is alive and well and many serve God with the same spirit of Abel in faith and are ridiculed, mocked, martyred, persecuted, and hated.
Why should God force you or anyone into His kingdom against their will. If you want nothing to do with God now on Earth what will make you feel you would want to be with Him in heaven for ALL ETERNITY? Since God is everlasting without a beginning or an end His beloved creation (Man) will also have no end. You may die on earth but your soul will not cease to exist. Sorry! That’s just the way it is. Hell forever or heaven forever. It’s convenient for the sinner to really try to eliminate the thought of a supreme law giver and a supreme judge. Hell is not a popular subject for sinners but popularity in a sin cursed world should never be the litmus test for truth. The teaching of the Bible is contrary, antithetical, and opposed to the way of the world. You hating God or trying to eliminate God from your conscience is the usual. You are in good company. There are many like you. From Cain until now many have fallen in that cursed line.
-Exodus
Exodus,
You must be a Teologiant. I want to send you this verse of the Bible that I am sure you have read many times:
Matthew 10:32King James Version (KJV)
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Thank you for standing up and testifying for my God.
God bless you. No i am not a theologian. I am sinner who just loves the word of God. I believe man can know God on a personal level if his or her heart sincerely seeks after God.
I wish i could stand up for God. It’s a divine privelage that God would see me and use me as a vessel to proclaim His truth. I am unworthy to even represent Him. It’s only by the grace of God thay i do what i do.
Our God is awesome!
Quote “You will NOT believe, because you CANNOT believe” and then you go on to say that God is causing these people’s inability to believe. I am one of those people. I am simply UNABLE to believe the bible is the word of “The one true god”. i believe it is the word of reptilian aliens…but that is a whole nother convo. So let me just make my point here and ask you a quick question. WHY does god basically force people to not believe? You said it’s judgement….judgemnet for what? Why is 500Q not allowed to believe, but you are? Why are you better than us, in god’s eyes? Dont you think we’d all be equal? Why did he chose you to go to heaven and us to go to hell? Where is our free will? If you can answer these simple questions, I’ve got some tougher ones for ya….Just getting started. lol I do appreciate you taking the time to respond though. I’d like to see how your mind can make sense of what you are saying in your own words. Again, why does god force us into not believing. Other chirstians have told me I am bullshitting when I tell them I cannot possibly believe. They say “Yes you can, you just dont want to” But the truth is, I can’t force myself to believe something that my brain doesnt believe and knows in my heart and soul, isnt true. I would be lying if I said I believed jesus was the savior. There is a good video on youtube which shows how christianity was clearly plagarized from older pagan ideas….Jesus “being with us until the end of age” simply means until we get to the age of Aquarius. You should watch it…it may open your eyes. But I doubt it, as the bible is a powerful book of magic spells (WORDS=SPELLS….SPELLing Words, SPELLing B, etc) and it puts a heavy trance on the reader, especially those like you who take it seriously and put time and effort into trying to read and understand it. It’s a dangerous book. At the very least, you will be reincarnated, that white light you see after you die (NDE’s) is actually a soul trap. A projection of your true light within…it’s an illusion and the archons will trick you into coming back here to this hell. And who knows, you may be one of the starving children in your next life. Or maybe you’ll be a roach and get stepped on. Do you really want to come back here? I would be very careful what you trust and believe because the bible is a mainstream book and was controlled by the illuminati from the start
Yes. Everything I said is from God. God does not need to be taken off the hook. God decrees the ending from beginning. You want to put God on trial? Lets go!
WHY does god basically force people to not believe?
Your question comes from a faulty premise. God does not force people not to believe. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” What God does do is change the will of the sinner to believe. His Holy Spirit regenerates the dead man. Why? Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). So, if natural man can not know God, God should be given the credit for infusing man with the will to seek Him. Those who do not believe are doing what their natural disposition leads them to do. God gets the credit for salvation and man is fully responsible for his damnation due to his rejection of God’s son. How can a blind person see? How can the born spiritually dead come alive to the knowledge of God. It’s God who regenerates man. That’s why my faith is not my own. God has given me the ability to know him. Those who don’t believe are doing what the natural born sinner is suppose to do. That is….reject God.
You said, “judgemnet for what?”
Judgment for sin. Penalty of sin is death…eternal death separation from God in hell. Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Why is 500Q not allowed to believe, but you (I) are?(am)?
500Q can’t believe because he chooses not to believe and God will never force man to believe. When you reject the little light God gives such as creator to creation, and begin to justify sin by suppressing truth in unrighteousness, God then proceeds to give you up to the futility of your own mind (Romans chapter 1). God’s wrath is now in effect and will be fully consummated in hell. When men are given up they are under the curse because they are incapable to believe. That’s what makes Gospel of God so humbling. I don’t know what is so special about me that He chose me. I am a sinner and hated God before I was saved. God does not come to save special people, He comes to save those that acknowledge their depravity. As a matter of fact Jesus while being nailed to the cross screams out to God to forgive those for committing their murder against Him. My sins placed Jesus on that cross because He died for all of us who would believe. I don’t deserve saving. I’m sure 500Q has lived a better life than me. 500Q is probably so good that he can’t fathom believing in a God for salvation. The cross of Christ is a foolish concept to those who are perishing. God comes for the broken and those in contrition over their spiritual condition (Psalms 51:17). All glory goes to God for redeeming me. The word of God says in Ephesians 1:4-6 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Dont you think we’d all be equal?
We are all sinners…yes we are all equal.
Where is our free will?
Man does not have free will man only has one will and that will is to sin. So in other words there is no free will for the sinner. The sinner is forever enslaved to futility, captive by Satan destined for outer darkness. We are captive to our nature and without sovereign divine intervention from God all of humanity would take their supposed free will to hell. Man becomes free when He surrenders to the lordship of Jesus Christ. Then and only then can you be equipped to make righteous decisions and incur distinctions between every act you commit. You can choose righteousness rather than unrighteousness. Every act you do that is righteous is made with an association with Christ in mind. The Bible says, “And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him” (Colossians 3:17). Human good without the acknowledgment of Jesus is “filthy rags” in the sight of God. Isaiah 64:6 “But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousness’s are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities (sins), like the wind, Have taken us away.”
“Other chirstians have told me I am bullshitting when I tell them I cannot possibly believe. They say “Yes you can, you just dont want to” But the truth is, I can’t force myself to believe something that my brain doesnt believe and knows in my heart and soul, isnt true. I would be lying if I said I believed jesus was the savior.”
Your statement above proves that you have been given over by God to the futility of your own mind. The deeper the hell is for the one who receives revelation and rejects. It would be better for you if you weren’t born. Sodom and Gomorrah in their sexual perversion will have a better hell than the Religious Jewish leaders who saw Jesus and rejected Him.
May God be with you.
Dear God=Satan=BothOneandThesame=IllusionOfDuality,
I found your post rather interesting and certainly different. Your remark about the Illuminati suggests that they are happy that Christians fear God so they’re not up to the challenge to take more control of their own lives and instead, adhere to the requirements of the scriptures?
Take care,
Dinos
Exodus,
For every excellent answer that you post, there is a deeper rage in the heart of atheists against God. Matthew 11:25 is very clear and you also said it before: They won’t believe because they can’t believe. It takes humbliness and a genuine desire to find the truth before a person believes through the faith that comes only from God.
Dear Marleny,
We thank you for your contributions and without you and others like you, there would be no discussion.
At 66 years of age, I’m probably one of the older contributors to this website; this may explain my politeness. Exodus misunderstood me earlier but I think he understands me now.
You should try to understand what people are writing when we write against the belief in God and all the doctrine that goes with it, especially heaven and hell in an afterlife. We are not angry at God since we do not believe in the Biblical God of thousands of contradictions. If such a God had created us, why did he give us the intelligence to understand that we have been conned by the elites who invented Him to control the masses? Clearly, if a creative force created us and all living things, it is not omnipotent, and probably has no consciousness.
The concept of God originated in ancient times when people did not understand natural events like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and thought the gods were angry. They appeased them with sacrifices, including human ones. The concept of sacrifice to win favour with gods became a legacy that the Israelites could not give up even after they adopted the monotheistic God. Consequently, they killed livestock to make burnt offerings to Him and used the blood of sacrificed lambs to cleanse the worshippers of the monotheistic God in the synagogues.
And yet, Psalm 50 KJV from King David’s time (reigned Judea and Israel 1010–970 BCE), reads:
8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
They continued their sacrifices until 70 A.D. in contradiction of Psalm 50 – see the link and a brief extract below:
https://bible.org/question/when-did-animal-sacrifices-stop-and-why
For the Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, animal sacrifices done in obedience to the Old Testament covenant were stopped in A.D. 70 at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the armies of Rome. Jesus warned of this in the Gospels.
Do you see how quoting the scriptures can be used to contradict God’s purported consistency by non-believers, just as believers use it to support their dogmatic fundamentalist beliefs? You could choose to be honest and avoid making excuses for what is clearly wrong. If you don’t, you run the risk of dying, hopefully at a ripe old age, as a person engulfed with delusion and twisted by incongruent, contradictory doctrine and scriptures.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
And it really is that simple.
There is no eternal torture. The bible does not support this theory. 500Q and all others in doubt need to watch this video for proof- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xTcDU-cMAg
Nice video, but this gentleman is guilty of cherry-picking verses to meet his own conclusions. There are many verses he’s leaving out. For example, in the parable of the rich man, the rich man was NOT unconscious, but suffering.
See: https://carm.org/hell-eternal
Hell is extremely problematic for believers, because it goes against all logic to think that a loving God would punish people forever. I can certainly understand why there’s an effort to undermine this idea, as it’s good PR for God. But this man has a bias, and he’s cherry-picking verses that can be used to confirm it.
500Q
Well in the video, he never denied that you suffer in hell, what he is showing is that hell is not forever. The meanings of the worlds in the bible don’t usually mean what they say. The true meaning is saying that its only temporary suffering. The eternal part refers to the death. Either way the bible surely doenst say hell is eternal torture so there should not be anyone bringing that up. Its not true and obviously anyone in their right mind knows a loving god would never do that.
Dear readers,
One problem I have with some Christians is when they refer to all humans as sinners, based on the story of Adam and Eve’s original disobedience. They ignore the obvious contradiction that we are said to have been created, “…in our own image.” Since God is considered to be omnibenevolent, how could Adam and Eve be persuaded to sin? The apologetics answer contradictions of this sort but each answer leads to another contradiction.
Another problem I have is with Christians who preach that if we do God’s will and believe in Christ we shall be saved, but if we do not we shall be eternally damned. If this were true then God is not giving us an unconditional choice. If we believe for passage to heaven we are merchants; if we believe to avoid damnation we are servants.
All of this kind of preaching causes ill feelings to other humans. If people must believe in a good God it would be better to believe in the immanent goodness of humanity!
The links below are mainly for “Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura” Christians and they are worth a read as they dispel some of the Biblical misunderstandings and they are scripturally based:
http://frimmin.com/faith/belief.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticalheart.php
http://frimmin.com/books/gospelofthomas.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/mysticismstart.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php
I hope that some of the dogmatic Christians who describe us all as “sinners” will take the time to read some articles provided by these links.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
There’s no good in humanity. Humans have successfully taken everything God made good and corrupted it. From sex, to human interactions and human relationships to their own relationship with Him (God). Man is the deadliest creature among all that God created. We kill more of our own through crime, wars, abortions, and murder. Man was once created good but man’s sin has plunged him in a bleek disposition He is hell bound in need of a savior.
Even religion is corrupt. Man has also found a way to corrupt true worship with false worship. Religion is NEVER man at his best….NO! Religion violates the first commandment when God says that “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Religion is man at his worst.
Christianity is about a relationship with God through His son Jesus Christ. Kill the rituals, sacriments, repetitiouse deeds, traditions and external displays of piousity.
God is relational for even His essence is comprosed with relational harmony (God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit). We are made in God’s image. God loves. We love. God can create. We can create. God gives life. We can give life (reproductively). God can take life and we as man can take life (in the form if government an ordained tool by God not something used for personal vengeance. This affirmed in scriptutre when Jesus tells Peter to put down his sword when Peter was fighting off the guards from capturing Jesus. Jesus told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. Personal veangence is never promoted in scripture.)
God’s general make up is sown in within the construct of the human spirit. So, if or when hell becomes a reality man will be without excuse.
Rimans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
You have asked very good questions and just to add on, if jesus died for our sins why are we still suffering. Has any one who claims that god is alive and is good ever visited any cancer ward and seen how these people are in pain? what does that ‘loving god’ have to say about this or is he insane?
Very poignant question to the topic. If Jesus dies for our sins why are we still suffering?
Jesus dying for your sins doesn’t eliminate suffering in this present world but it does keep you from facing eternal damnation in hell. A hell that was designed for demons, and fallen angels. Fallen men will be included in that destruction as well because they fell to seducing doctrines that lured them to deny Jesus and His lordship.
Suffering is part of the curse that fell upon humanity once Adam and Eve gave up their dominion to Satan. What’s this temporal life in comparison to eternity. The suffering is for a short while. We Christians fix our gaze upon the coming of the Lord. All suffering, all death, all pain, all calamity, and all evil will one day be put to rest and be destroyed for good. Evil will never prevail. God is allowing evil to run its course to the fullest extreme and He will stamp it out one day. Sickness and disease were never built into the plan of God. Sickness (ie..cancer) or any type of ill are part of the degenerative effect of sin that brought death into the world. Truth is, we will all die because of sin. Whether be from old age, or from an accident, or from giving birth to child. Death is the current monarch of man. But Jesus came to give life. Life everlasting that never ends with Him in His kingdom. The Bible tells us that God’s kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
While we wait, we are commissioned to be salt and light to a tasteless dark world and spread the gospel in order to save men who are dammed in their sin. I’d rather suffer now and spend eternity with God than to enjoy the pleasures of the world and burn in hell for all eternity. This world belongs to the devil but God still attains sovereign rule. Satan has his limits. You can see that in the book of Job when Satan gets permission from God to afflict Job.
Suffering is part of this world. Don’t be like the children of disobedience who wage war internally against God and fight to find fulfillment in sin saturated world. Why would God want you comfortable in a place contrary to his nature? As a father you want your kids home with you. You are a child of the earth. Your home is here. I am a child of God my home is elsewhere where my God is. God created everything good in Genesis. It was man that sinned. Not too long after Adam and Even sinned their son Cain kill his own brother Abel.
Trust the plan of God and do not lean to your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6New International Version (NIV)Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;in all your ways submit to him,and he will make your paths straight.
Is God insane? No. Man is insane for denying His creator. Insanity is deny your savior when he comes to rescue you from His wrath. A gift is sent to humanity and humanity rejects it then has the unmitigated gall to call God insane. On the contrary, man is the one indicted with being insane. Only a fool says in his heart that there is no God. Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
You state “Jesus dying for your sins doesn’t eliminate suffering in this present world but it does keep you from facing eternal damnation in hell.”
The truth is Jesus did not really die. Jesus was really his father (God) and because he had the power he could come back to life. If I am not mistaken this is obviously unbelievable, but for theists this is the power their god has. So, if Jesus did not actually die he did not die for our sins, did he?
Your claim “This world belongs to the devil but God still attains sovereign rule.” I think you may be wrong here. Christianity at most only has 2.3 billion followers in a world of 7 billion people therefore many more billions of people have probably never heard of your god and many of them worship another god. If all these people have been persuaded by the devil is it not obvious that the devil has sovereign rule?
You quote John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. Have you thought that maybe the meaning is that our world is not part of his kingdom and he is subtlety acknowledging it belongs to the devil?
You believe and state “Trust the plan of God” and “Trust in the Lord with all your heart”.
Let’s say hypothetically a man loses his wife and two teenage daughters to a maniac rapist killer. Was it the Christian God or the devil who made this happen? If I am not mistaken Christians believe God has control of everything, especially the good things that happen in life. Therefore, is it not feasible to think God does not have as much control as you believe and the devil is running rampant?
Jesus was fully God and fully man. Jesus is the second part of the trinity which entails God the father, God the son, God the Holy spirit. God is one person 3 beings. Jesus’ function was to die for man. The Holy spirit’s function was to lead Jesus as illustrated many times in scripture. God the father unleashes the commandment and the son obeys but never outside the guidance of the Holy spirit. That’s why God in His essence is harmony personified. God never acts without the harmony of His 3 beings. Each being is fully God but each being serves a different purpose. God in his complexity can do that. Don’t attempt to put God in box to satisfy or pacify frail, inept, human logic. No human acumen can graze the depths of God’s infinite essence. Just like we as humans have one being (who we are) and one personality. God is one person with three distinct beings but all are God. God is a spirit and can’t be seen. God is reachable by the GodMan Jesus Christ. Lets get that out of the way first before I attempt to enlighten you on what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
Your statement:The truth is Jesus did not really die. Jesus was really his father (God) and because he had the power he could come back to life. If I am not mistaken this is obviously unbelievable, but for theists this is the power their god has. So, if Jesus did not actually die he did not die for our sins, did he?
Jesus actually died because he was a man like you and I. He’s the incarnate God. He set aside His deity to dwell among men to share in our sufferings. He was tempted as we were but never sinned. He wept, He cried, He felt betrayal when Judas one of His beloved disciples betrayed Him. He cared for the sick, He healed anyone who came to Him. He pretty much banished disease in modern day Palestine. He displayed His compassion to men. Hence, His large following. Soon as He began to unleash deep spiritual truths about sin and drinking His blood and eating His flesh many walked with Him no more. People love the Jesus that can give them what they want but hate the Jesus that makes demands on their lives and speaks to their sinful ways.
Jesus was man. He was born like you and I . He came through the vaginal canal like any other child. The only difference in his birth was his conception. The seed of man did not enter Mary for she conceived by the Holy Spirit. This was done to bypass the sin nature in man. Women are the carrier and men are the ones who attain the seed. When Adam fell all humanity fell.
Jesus died. Not in the sense that you know or think death to be. We are eternal creatures so technically we never die. True death is described as separation from God. Jesus received the true death blow in every sense. He died a physical death due to the physical beating, and torture, He also died spiritually (true death) in that God separated Himself from Jesus. Hence Jesus making the statement; “Father Why have you forsaken me” (Mathew 27:46)? God placed His wrath upon His son and turned His back on Jesus. In that sense Jesus did die. Absent from the body is to be back to your creator and judge (2 Corinthians 5:8). Everyone will be resurrected from physical death. That’s not an issue for God. If God can create life He can definitely sustain it. It’s unfortunate that some will be resurrected given a body fit for hell, and others resurrected given a body fit for eternal life with the Lord. God has the power to raise man from physical death unto eternal life or eternal death. The significance of Jesus’s resurrection is that his sinless life and sacrifice now paves a way for fallen man to be redeemed. In Adam we fell but in Jesus (the son of man) we are alive. If we place our faith and trust in Jesus death for us.
God made the law, man broke it, but God paid the penalty for mans lawlessness. God has no flaws. He alone satisfies His own justice by giving up His son. He provides the propitiation (atonement for sin) for sins He did not commit. God can’t die because He is a spirit, but the GodMan Jesus can. That’s why the name of Jesus is so vital in salvation. NO one comes to father but by His name (Jesus). He alone has the key to life and death.
Dear Anonymous,
Your post is quite close to the doctrines of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
I should like to avoid the narrowing feature that happens to responses, especially as the string of thoughts lengthen. I’ll present my post at the end of all the comments when I have time. Right now it is 19.45 in England and I have caring duties to my elderly mother to attend to.
Peace and love to you,
Dinos
If in your words “Each being is fully God but each being serves a different purpose. God in his complexity can do that.”
If you can justify a complex God with such ease what makes you think it is only this God with these traits? The complexity of real life we can really see, touch and smell. Biological evolution and science is complex and the chances of far more advanced and complex life existing in the universe is infinitely more realistic than any god coming from within the pages of ancient books. It is unconceivable to claim your God created everything within a few days because you must have something more than faith to support what is regarded as a fantasy claim.
What is this? You say “Jesus actually died because he was a man like you and I.” You cannot have it both ways. Jesus was always going to be a third of the Christian God and even though he came from a normal birth it proves nothing but just indicates another fantasy miracle for the local people because it was just another one of God’s powers just as he walked around healing people, feeding thousands, walking on water and so on. Therefore, he was not a man who was anything like me or you in any way at all, right?
God may have separated and allowed Jesus to endure the pain of physical death but he always had a plan B and that was to resurrect the God made Jesus that was his other third, bring him into heaven and become whole again. If he had not resurrected Jesus he would have some credibility by sacrificed a part of himself as his son, but he did not, so do you not see that this sacrifice really means nothing? What pain did God really go through? Such a powerful God who had raised many from the dead and killed many others as well, this was a simple exercise for this god with no permanent grief or penalty for him.
This may have been justice for some people who are emotionally consumed by this touching story, however, there are no real facts or tangible evidence to justify any of these events happened anyway never mind this grotesque idea that we never die supported by blind faith.
Faith and trust in old stories written by many unknown authors over many decades after they supposedly happened are the sole foundation of this religion.
I simply just described His nature but I can’t explain how God can be 3 persons but one being. The math doesn’t add up. I just believe it in faith. Thank you. You give me too much credit. I did not think I explained God’s complexity with ease. I just tried to explain it the best way that i could.
HE is SUPERNATURAL. Outside this time space capsule. HE is a God. Evolution is not science. It takes faith to believe in that heresy in the same way you tell me that it takes faith to believe in God as the creator of all things. Believing in evolution takes faith. NO one to date has see anything evolve. I am not the only one here that has faith. Evolution helps to get rid of God as the creator. It’s a theory that has yet to be proven but people take it as fact. DNA proves that evolution is an impossibility. Every species has their own distinct code. One species can not morph into another. Your ancestors sklyjd were not apes. Apes have a set of distinct DNA codes that makes them Apes and man has a totally different set of DNA codes.
Why would it be difficult for an eternal being who has no end or beginning who has always been to create from nothing. God is not limited by the time space capsule that we are in. All things come from God. The Bible doesn’t try to rationalize creation to the reader. It simply says what God did. He spoke everything into existence. It’s that simple! True Science points to a God. Now, you may choose not to believe in the God of the Bible but don’t sit here and violate reason and conscience and dismiss the idea of a creator.
A well-known scientist, a very decorated scientist named Herbert Spencer, died in 1903. In his scientific career he had become noted for one great discovery; it was a categorical contribution that he made. He discovered that all reality, all that exists in the universe can be contained in five categories: time, force, action, space and matter. Herbert Spencer said everything that exists, exists in one of those categories: time, force, action, space and matter. Nothing exists outside of those categories. That was a very astute discovery and didn’t come until the nineteenth century. Now think about that. Spencer even listed them in that order: time, force, action, space and matter. That is a logical sequence. With that in your mind, listen to Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning,” that’s time. “God,” that’s force. “Created,” that’s action. “The heavens,” that’s space. “And the earth,” that’s matter. In the first verse of the Bible God said plainly what man didn’t catalog until the nineteenth century. Everything that could be said about everything that exists is said in that first verse. Now either you believe that or you don’t. You either believe that that verse is accurate and God is the force or you believe that God is not the force that created everything. And then you’re left with chance or randomness or coincidence or evolution as your alternative.
-Exodus.
I have as much faith as you that there is no creator. I have done some research on the credibility of the Biblical stories and it is more than clear that many stories were based on similar stories from much earlier religions long before Christianity was invented. Christian apologetics will twist and turn with all sorts of excuses and stories to justify what they have faith in, just as you have done with your butchered creationist version of evolutionary science to fit your faith.
Biological evolutionary principles have been considered as solid facts by the world’s foremost scientists for over a hundred years including agnostic Herbert Spencer as you will know. How can you just ignore that fact, it will never go away?
Time, force, action, space and matter is a good example of tacking something together to claim a point for God. Not convincing enough to induce faith that God thought of it first and then created everything.
You can just keep up your misconceptions and keep rattling on about your superstitious beliefs while the many intelligent scientific people continue to uncover the exciting facts about our real world. You obviously live in a completely regulated ideological world compared to mine.
Regards.
God never had a plan B. God had ONLY one plan and that was Jesus. Jesus…the lamb that would be slain was prophesied in the book of Genesis thousands of years before He was born.
-Exodus.
Dear Anonymous,
I’ve been following your posts with interest. Your strong, comprehensive views of what should be considered true Christian doctrine reminded me of the strong views that Jews had about how lambs should be sacrificed during the Passover. A link below refers:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/temple.html
And below is an extract from it:
It would be physically exhausting work. Made exhausting not for the least reason that most Jews had very strong opinions on whether the Priest was doing his business properly or not…. Sometimes reading ancient sources is like overhearing family quarrels in a distant room… I mean, people who weren’t priests at all would have absolutely firm opinions on how the Priests should be doing their business. A Priest who would be a member of a particular group, say a Priest who had a Pharisaic orientation, might think something should be done one way, and a Priest who didn’t have that orientation would think it would be done another way. Everybody is looking at the Bible and then on the basis of tradition and improvisation, doing what he thought was the correct way to do it….
It’s strange that God chose the Jews as His people only to have the majority of them turn their backs on Him, and in 33 A.D. they saved Barabbas to force Pontius Pilate to crucify Jesus Christ!
Presumably, you believe that all non-Christian Jews are consigned to hell after mortal death?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Does the bible say that we should trust MAN? I believe it says not to trust man…and you, Exodus with all due respect, are a man (or woMAN, same deal) so what is the purpose of you telling us this stuff, if we trusted you, we would be going against what the bible says. I think the bible also tells christians to spread the gospel, which in turn is contradicting itself, when it says we should not trust what man says. Unfortunately the gospel didn’t come from any true god. That was just a lie, and you trusted it on faith. Your mind is so powerful that once you believe something enough it comes true. We are the creators. I have seen proof of it. I asked the universe once, to manifest an exact amount of money- $10,000 dollars. And I had never in my life ever had that kind of money. Within one month, I shit you not, I received a total of 10 grand. I knew it wasn’t a coincidence because I have also experienced many other synchronicites as well. God is an illusion that you have created with your own mind. You have to be careful because Hell is very real, to the person who experiences it. When you believe in something, you give power to it. Notice the word LIE in the world beLIEve? Again, no coincidene. Words are spells. The bible is nothing more than a book of spells, and a very powerful one at that. So whenever someone (MAN) quotes a scripture, I ignore it. So I believe the bible says that those who have not heard the gospel cannot go to hell. Therefore, you are only hurting people by spreading it, because if they havent heard, they cannot be held accountable. This is according to your own book, that you beLIEve in. Anyway, evoultion is indeed a lie, but so is the bible. All history is lies. Nothing they tell us is true. Everything is illusion. The only real truth can be found from within. —————–
Dino, I apologize for my late response I have been so busy. I will try to answer your questions soon. I just have way too much to say, and to prove my point, I would have to write a book. And just dont have time anymore. But go to you tube and watch the video which shows what Jesus really is, it shows proof with images and it’s undeniable once you see it. It explains where the Jesus fish came from, what “end times” really is (we are not in end times, lol) and a whole lot more.
I beleive you can search out the title “Can you handle the truth, bible” and you will find the video. It is 31:59 running time. Please watch it and let me know if you resonate with it…it shows what a scam christianity really is. It’s nothing more than a copy of older pagan beliefs and mythological gods. Of course they have added stuff to the bible as well. A whole load on nonsense to confuse and separate people. But that’s just another reason religion is extremely bad and evil.
Hello God=Satan,
I too am pushed for time, so I’ve copied your post into a word document to review later. I’m using Word 2013 and have switched on some advanced features including Readability Statistics. Your piece showed:-
Averages: 10.5 sentences per para., 12.8 words per sentence, 4.0 characters per. word.
Readability: 2% passive sentences, 78.4 Flesch Reading Ease (100 is the max.), 5.5 Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level.
You are a good communicator. Flesch Reading Ease link:
http://www.readabilityformulas.com/flesch-reading-ease-readability-formula.php
Take care,
Dinos
Well thank you Dino. I appreciate that. Although I thought I wrote it pretty badly. I was just in a hurry. Well, I just wanted to say that if everyone in the world was like you, this world would be such a better place. I don’t mean all robots with the same personality, I just mean with your kind of morals of peace love and respect. There would be no war, no murder, no rape, etc. I don’t know you, but by reading your posts, I can obviously judge you as a good person. Religions have really ruined this planet. Christians always say that christianity is not a religion, and rather a personal relationship with Christ, but I can’t grasp my head around that because they are always quoting the bible to make their arguments. If they had a true relationship with Christ from within, then they would not need a book to get their information. It would come straight from Christ himself, via their own temple. So while I agree truth comes from within, I think christians are getting their info from the wrong source. And that is what leaves them confused and brainwashed.
Also I apologize, I didn’t mean to ruin the conversation, or to scare Exodus away. As crazy as my questions sound, they were serious questions. And I thought since Exodus is good at answering questions in detail, and he seemed passionate about it, I thought he would maybe at least attempt to answer some. I actually had a book I was writing (Not to be published or anything, lol!) with 1,001 tough questions to ask christians. Many of them, the answers CANNOT be found on google, or in the bible. So it’s a sincere way to test the christian faith. As they cannot just copy from another source, they would need to get the info from within their own self. It was an attempt to get them to think for themselves. But so many are just set in their ways, they are terrified to think outside the box, and that is what causes them to flee from my questions. I have never once lost a debate with a christian. They are always the ones who end up not answering my questions. But I always address everything in their debate.
i admit this time, I did not because I have not had time. But I indeed could address his posts, and I plan to. So at least you guys can see some of the info I have gotten from within…and many other people across the planet have also gotten the same info. So we are indeed connected to a collective consciousness. It’s just unfortunate that christians have been cut off from this. By their own doing. Just another reason why religion is so deadly.
Hello God is Satan,
I’ve written on other websites that all Christians need to do is to love God and one another as they should love themselves; non-Christians could love one another without loving God.
Fundamentalist Christians think they were born as sinners so they’re unlikely to love themselves, and they project this self-loathing onto other people. This is a corruption of our genetic predisposition to be innately good and gregarious animals. Their indoctrination causes them to behave badly to their fellow human beings in the same way that a bad upbringing does to non-believers.
It appears that if there is a number of moderate Christians following the thoughts expressed on this website, they have the good sense to avoid the risk of being dragged down by the Fundamentalists or having their faith eroded by the intelligent questions of non-believers.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Here is a question for you exodus. I asked this to several other christians, and never got the same answer (therefore, obviously it doesn’t have an answer for this in the bible?) But let me try with you, since you always give, good detailed answers. Ok here goes- WHY DIDNT GOD CREATE US TO BE LIKE HIM? And I dont mean “In his image” I mean, why didn’t he create us with his perfect nature, so that we would be unable to sin, like him? First, let me assume you agree that God is UNABLE to win. Most christians believe this. So if God is unable to sin, does that mean God does not have free will? And if he IS able to sin, how can you trust a god who could end up being a sinner one day. One million years is like one day to god. So who is to say that in one of “Gods” days, he wont become a sinner? Does god think about everything? Is his mind infinite? has he experienced the thought of raping children? Just asking some tougher questions now. Is it a sin for god to think those things? And if he doesnt think those things, is he limited in his ability, and therefore without free will? Anyway my main question here, is why didnt god create us all perfect like him, with the SAME amount of free will that he has himself. (I mean I think you already admitted we DONT have free will anyway…so that isnt even part of the debate) If you say God DID give us free will, then I can prove that wrong right now- In the bible it says we have ONE OF TWO choices, Heaven or Hell. What if we do not wish to go to either place? what if we prefer to just roam the universe or reincarnation and come back to earth, etc? How is FORCING us into existence without asking us, if we wanted to be alive or not, and then fORCING us into one of only 2 lousy options after death, free will? It’s not free will at all. It’s far from it. So now that we’ve established that we were not given true free will, why didnt god just create us perfect, so that we would all love him and no one would suffer. Granted if he created us with the perfect love, we still wouldnt be like robots, we would be just like him. One answer I got from one christian was- It’s impossible for god to create us all like him. I say to that- Well then he can’t be god, if he doesnt even have the power to make us as good as him. I think he might just be a tyrant and that’s what he created us all lower them him. (Slave/master relationship) If that’s what your heart is into, go for it. But I would just be careful is all I’m saying…God of the bible is actually Satan in disguise and has you deceived.
Your statement: Your claim “This world belongs to the devil but God still attains sovereign rule.” I think you may be wrong here. Christianity at most only has 2.3 billion followers in a world of 7 billion people therefore many more billions of people have probably never heard of your god and many of them worship another god. If all these people have been persuaded by the devil is it not obvious that the devil has sovereign rule?
Why do you try to use earthy, temporal vestiges by which to explain the supernatural eternallity of God’s truth? it’s impossible. The world belongs to the devil. God tells us that in scripture. The unperceived God of the universe has made Himself known through the scriptures. That’s not up for argument. I’m simply proclaiming God’s truth and not arguing truth. This is not a matter of opinion, or pie in the sky concept extrapolated from the residual decay of fallen human logic (in trying to grasp spiritual truth). Fallen human logic is near sighted, earth based, sinful, selfish, inept, handicapped, and incapable of knowing God’s truth. Only faith given by the Holy Spirit can reveal God’s revelation to man. Apart from that man is blind. Born blind. Born in sin. Born an enemy of God, and destined for hell. Proclamation made not an argument. You either believe it or you don’t. Don’t try to rationalize it.
Yes…many people have not heard of Jesus but that’s why the patience of God remains, awaiting for all to come to repentance placing their eternal fate on the work of Jesus Christ. That’s why Jesus tells Christians to go out in to the world and spread the Gospel (Good news). The good news is that you were once destined for hell but God has laid out a path to redeem His elect.
Satan has rule but not sovereign rule. Satan in the book of Job has to get permission from God to afflict Job. Satan meant the affliction for evil but God used the affliction for good to prove Job’s faith to himself. No one ever grows in times of bliss. Its trying times with severe difficulty that often times reveals our true character. How do you know your faith is real if it isn’t tested?
If the devil was sovereign he would not need permission to do anything.A sovereign ruler does need to get permission. God rules Satan. Satan is God’s lap dog and evil on this earth serves a purpose that you and I will not always understand on this side of reality. When God punishes people He will often times give them up to the hands of Satan.
Satan lacks any power to persuade sinful men. Man is sinful by nature. All Satan does is create an environment the helps to incubate evil within the sinner, further accentuating the sinners ideals to be reflected in a positive light in a world amassed with satanic influences.
The only sovereign rule the devil has is toward the children of wrath and disobedience (Ephesians 2:2). These are the sons of Cain. They all hate God’s ways and aspire to kill, persecute, and sabotage those who believe. That’s exactly what Cain did to his brother Abel. He murdered his brother because Abel had favor with God and Cain didn’t. My spiritual lineage and heritage dates back to the origin (Geneis) with Abel.
-Exodus
Your statement. You quote John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. Have you thought that maybe the meaning is that our world is not part of his kingdom and he is subtlety acknowledging it belongs to the devil?
Yes…You have done well as a Bible expositor. You read, analyzed, applied critical thought, and kept the text in its context.
Jesus is definitely saying that the world belongs to the devil but that does not mean that the devil attains sovereign rule. Sovereign rule implies supremacy and ultimate authority. How can the devil be sovereign when his judgment will be in the lake of fire with the rest of the unGodly?
Your statement: Let’s say hypothetically a man loses his wife and two teenage daughters to a maniac rapist killer. Was it the Christian God or the devil who made this happen? If I am not mistaken Christians believe God has control of everything, especially the good things that happen in life. Therefore, is it not feasible to think God does not have as much control as you believe and the devil is running rampant?
Sin is the cause of the evil. Devil comes to kill steal and destroy and his children manifest his character traits. The issue with your premise is that there is no one good nor anything good outside of God in this world. Sin has permeated through man and has even impacted the biological sphere. The entire world is cursed.
Death is not end if you are a Christian who desires to be with God and escape the sinful flesh you carry. “To live is Christ and to die is gain” ( Philippians 1: 21).
The two daughters and wife would have nothing to fear if saved and believed in Jesus Christ. They would be ushered in with God where He is in heaven immediately they die because of what Christ accomplished on the cross (2 Corinthians 5:8).
We will all die, no one escapes death. What you don’t want is eternal death separation from God in hell. What’s eternity compared to the span of life given to man. While alive repent and surrender to the will of God. A fallen world, with fallen people is bound to have atrocities.
Would it be better for God save the wife and daughter from physical death and let them live a long sinful life only to still end up in hell? We trust God and we allow him to work out the issues of mans heart. His providence and infinite wisdom far eclipses any feeble attempt to try to judge God by infusing hypothetical scenarios…in hopes that you can unmask God for being unruly and unjust in your eyes. If you are your own god you that makes sense.
-Exodus.
Your comment “Death is not end if you are a Christian who desires to be with God and escape the sinful flesh you carry.”
Why do Christian families not indulge in mass suicides or take to undertaking death defying acts if this is so patently true? I will tell you why they don’t, it is because your belief in God is based only on faith and hope not fact. Not many Christians I can recall have had the confidence to test the water before the natural time of death arises and I expect they would fight to the bitter end as any animal and atheist does to stay alive, wouldn’t you?
Your comment regarding my hypothetical rape and murders “Would it be better for God save the wife and daughter from physical death and let them live a long sinful life only to still end up in hell?”
If they were your family and they were unbelievers, would you be happy that they died and went to hell and did not have to live long sinful lives to end up in hell? What about the suffering they endured at the hands of the rapist before death? Is that acceptable because they are sinners as we all are and we must just take it because you say “A fallen world, with fallen people is bound to have atrocities.” And I guess this is part of your fantastic God’s infinite wisdom.
If the wife and daughters were of course Christians, would you be even happier knowing they have had a far better frame of mind while being raped and murdered by knowing they were going to go to heaven and to be with God?
Personally, I think this is somewhat appalling that people can even contemplate such things from religious mythology, however apart from being of a sane mind what would I know about the other minds?
Why indulge in mass suicide? God is the only one who can give or take life. If God wills a man to live he shall live to glorify God all of his days. If God wills a man to come home to be with Him in heaven so be it. God doesn’t promote suicide. The Christian commission is to go out into the world and spread the gospel to those who are called. If all the Christians committed mass suicide the commission would be rendered null and void.
For the sake of this discussion as a follower of Christ I’ll detach myself from being compared to the acts of animals. An animal’s instinct is what it is. The best of an unregenerate human (one who is NOT saved) at its optimal state is that of an animal. That’s where you get the survival of the fittest doctrine that is responsible for premise behind many genocidal acts. A follower of Christ as I am, I don’t try to die nor fight to live as animals and unregenerate humans. I allow the providence of God to take fold. Whether I live or die I do it unto the lord. To live is Christ and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:21). We are all on borrowed time. Death calls everyone and death is undefeated. When and how you die is the question but dying is inevitable. While man is busy fighting not to die and to live it up in this life, they die anyway and end up in hell already sweating from all of the exertion put forth in this life.
If they were your family and they were unbelievers, would you be happy that they died and went to hell and did not have to live long sinful lives to end up in hell?
No, I would be sad but I would also be happy that God is glorified because whatever God does is just and right. It is right to punish sin, it is right for the unrepentant sinner to face judgment. God’s law decrees it. If God’s attributes are put to on display I am happy. What is not right is for God to even apply a means by which men can escape their own sinful disposition. He produces the sacrifice and becomes the sacrifice and you are here worrying about the temporal when your eternal state is at steak hanging in the balance. Pigs in a pigsty are dirty no matter how clean some may look. All humans on Earth are wretched, vile, and sinful no matter how good some may think they are. The lie from Satan purported through various means says man is good and God is evil. This is what God says about man.
Romans 3:13-18
13 Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
These verses speak to the instincts of the unregenerate man who operates in the flesh and not the spirit.
Galatians 5:19-2
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
No, that would be sick for me to get joy knowing that rape occurred. It ANGERS me tremendously. This is due to sin in the world. That’s why I love a God who hates sin and punishes it. All types of sins will be punished. All evil will be done away with one day. Even the self righteous who thinks he doesn’t need Jesus will suffer the same eternal fate as the rapist and murderer. One thing that you should know is that in heaven there will be many murderers, and rapist who repented and surrendered to Christ. Ex rapist, ex murderers, ex fornicators…. on the flip side many moralist who thought themselves to be good and not need saving will enter hell. God came to save the sick (spiritually sick) and sinner, not the self righteous God hating rejector who seeks any opportunity to violate a conscience that tells him of a creator. Once you deny a creator all logic goes down from there and the individual begins to only resort to the Earth to rationalize his sinful disposition. You can’t come to recognize spiritual truth from the depth of human depravity and the environment in which it pervades no more than a pig can become clean remaining in a pigsty.
– Exodus
Christians would not want to commit suicide without real evidence that God exists not because they want to spread the gospel. Most Christians I would suggest have followed the faith and do not want to die because they are hedging their faith about heaven as a real place.
You are either plant or animal and humans are specific animals called mammals, you should get used to it, and did you know we share approximately 99% of our DNA with mice? You can fight against scientific facts as much as you like, but science is here to stay, it is real, it deals in evidence and facts not fantasy and mankind has depended on it for hundreds of years.
You cannot have it both ways, as you say “God is the only one who can give or take life” and “whatever God does is just and right.” According to you, this makes it absolutely clear he has the power to make the death a far more humane prospect than a vicious rape and murder or the unrelenting pain from starvation for a 3-year-old child. Quote all the scripture and make all the excuses you like for your God; however, you can never bend a fantasy to become a fact.
Unprompted, you quote the Romans 3:13-18 and a huge paragraph raving on about sin and what God will do about it one day. This appears to follow your trend of vindictive writing that is consumed in righteousness, superstitious concepts, hate and death.
You would not realise this as your mind is firmly fixed in some extremist camp, but I expect many moderate Christians would take a step back from you and your eccentric views. I must also point out atheists do not hate any of the gods, simply because they cannot hate gods that do not exist. How many do you hate?
You really miss out a lot and keep mixing yourself. I have one or two questions. What brought death into the world god or satan? Why is the penalty for sin death? Does god love? Take yourself as a parent. Would you give your own children and ever lasting punishment for failing to do something you instructed them to do? god is bullshit. I have said I will never believe in that so called god because I know there is nothing like that. Let me face the fire of hell that is, if at all it is there. But to the best of my knowledge, this was just the way of enslaving people by the few elites who did not want anyone to oppose them.
Please do not tell me about the bible because even you yourself , you were not there when this book was written and therefore you can not tell me that the bible is the book of god where is the evidence. I deal with evidences not stories. No wonder there are a lot of verse that have repeated because the authors did not have what to write but to copy what the other writers had already written. Look at the new testament what is in Luke is in mark is in John is in Mathew and is every where.
What will you do on the day you die and find that what you have been believing in does not exist any where.Shame up on you. When we die, we die and that is it period. Don’t be deceived.
Bravo for the good questions. Take care.
You have stated in one of your paragraphs that in the book of Job, satan had to get permission from god to afflict Job. This must be real madness for a loving god to test his children through afflicting pain on them to test their faith. I hope this is not what you do to your children. Bullshit.
I couldn’t do to my children what God did to Job. I don’t have the sovereignty to do that. I alone don’t have the power of life and death in my hand, nor do I possess any power to cast anyone in to hell. I’m a finite creature who has laws given by God by which I operate. Never will I commit blasphemy by putting God’s actions under the scope and scrutiny of mere man. Comparing God’s actions to mine would be an exercise in futility.
Only God can use the panorama of evil in a sin saturated environment to bring out good. We are at war!! This is Spiritual warfare and Satan is collecting souls everyday when people are dying without salvation. Our eternal souls are at stake.
God doesn’t need me to get Him off the hook from questions wrought from vile sinners who deep down hate Him and try to conjure up scenarios to make God look evil. I will give you the truth. The truth will make you hate God even more. Here it is;
Do you know it was God who offered Job to Satan. In the book of Job 1: 8 it says,
” And the Lord said unto Satan, “Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who feareth God and escheweth (abstain or keep away) evil?”
Not only does God give Satan permission to afflict Job, God initiated the exchange. He gave Job up to Satan. Job had no knowledge of this exchange in the spiritual realm. I told you, I am not trying to get God off the hook. You will get the truth unfiltered. You will either hate God more, fear HIM and repent, or continue to eliminate Him out of your conscience.
Satan’s name means the accuser of the brethren. In other words, Satan goes to and fro to God accusing the elect of God of the evils they commit. You see, Satan sinned once and was catapulted straight out of heaven and he can’t stand how God continues to forgive sinful man for his plenty sins. What Satan desires the most is to show God that HIS creation which HE loves so much (man) is flawed. Not only are they flawed but their love and faith is only good when you are good to them (Job was very wealthy). So what does God do, HE suggest Job to Satan for the test. The devil comes to tempt man to sin, curse God and reject His plan for salvation, while God will use the temptation as a test to prove your faith in HIM to be authentic. God never tempts man! You see, God is omniscient and is never in need of information. God knew Job’s faith was real. He knows everything. That’s why He suggested Job in the first place. The test was for Job to see his own faith and for Satan to know that nothing he places in front of God’s elect will dissuade them from believing in God. There is always pain before glory my friend. Jesus illustrated that when HE went to the cross. Now He is forever glorified.
After the test, Job was restored and gained double what he had lost. You can’t be a follower of Christ and not expect persecution. If Christ was persecuted so will we. This world belongs the devil and he is constantly after God’s elect. He’ll even use unbelievers to do his bidding. This is warfare. Spiritual. Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood (humans), but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Satan doesn’t need to accuse you because your position places you as an enemy of God. You are on his side.Why? Because you reject the idea of a God the same way Satan rejects the idea of God. Satan once desired to dethrone God and and be worshiped and was dealt eternal damnation. You desire to dethrone the idea of God and worship yourself or some ideology that helps you make sense amidst your reprobate mind.
Your case is settled. You see, being a follower of Christ doesn’t barricade you from the ills of a sinful world, nor does it guarantee a troubled free life. Believer or not you fill face trouble. The difference is, my troubles have a purpose within the plan and design of God and I trust Him. If HE saved me, why would I not trust Him with everything else. IF He suffered for me why would I abandon His presence. I CAN’T. Because you don’t believe your troubles are just troubles. We both will die one day. Genesis 3:19 For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.” We both will face judgment. Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: You will be judged whether you believe it or not. I am judged already. My sins both past, present and future were crushed by God when HE crushed His son as the sacrifice for my sins. You on the other hand will pay the penalty for own sins for all eternity separated from God in outer darkness. This sounds cruel I know, but it’s because I love you that I am telling you this.
Imagine going to hell and saying I wish someone told me about this. Well….I”m here and I’m telling you now. What you do with the information will carry you forever in eternity. The truth is proclaimed and never debated.
-Exodus.
My dear do not be deceived, there is nothing like the lake of fire when we die. Once we have died, we have died period. Stop imagining the un imaginable.
Ok i will start by keeping my question simple. If there is a law of free will, then why did God force billions of people into existence with his plan of creation, without asking them first, if they wanted to be born or not? Also why does he only give the option of heaven or hell when they die? What if they don’t wish to go to either place? I am just asking my questions based from popular christianity beliefs.
Also, think about this for a moment….God lives outside of time and already knows the future. Therefore nothing we can do, no amount of prayer, etc will change what god already knows will happen to us. So in this case, why should we even try, when our fate is already set in stone?
This post is directed at any and all christians here. Now if your answer is “We do NOT have free will” then I have to ask- Why didn’t god just force us to go to heaven then, so nobody would have to suffer in extreme agony for eternity? Or at least they could experience the love of heaven and it would dissolve their evil ways.
I also do not buy into the lie that “We need to know evil, to appreciate the good” If we never knew evil, our lives would be so much better. The “Balance” thing is a big time lie, to get people to accept evil
If you were able to post your point of view, that evidently means you are alive and being alive means you have never died, because no one has ever died and resurrected to explain what’s after we die (except JESUS, etc. but you don’t believe in Jesus). That raises a question: How do you know there is nothing like the lake of fire when we die? You have to die before you come to that conclusion unless you believe it by faith. We are not just flesh and bones. We have a soul and a Spirit. I understand you may not believe we have entities that are unmaterial and not visible within us but if you can not believe that someone higher than us created the wonder of the universe, some of which you can even see with your own set of eyes (i.e – the moon, etc), much less will you be able to believe what you can not see, unless you are given faith to believe.
Dear readers,
I’ve written on other websites that all Christians need to do is to love God and one another as they should love themselves; non-Christians could love one another without loving God.
Fundamentalist Christians think they were born as sinners so they’re unlikely to love themselves, and they project this self-loathing onto other people. This is a corruption of our genetic predisposition to be innately good and gregarious animals. Their indoctrination causes them to behave badly to their fellow human beings in the same way that a bad upbringing does to non-believers.
It appears that if there is a number of moderate Christians following the thoughts expressed on this website, they have the good sense to avoid the risk of being dragged down by the Fundamentalists or having their faith eroded by the intelligent questions of non-believers.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Dear JessLeigh99,
It is refreshing to hear from a believer who is not a Fundamentalist on this forum – thank you.
I’m not here to change your views; people reach a certain age then their opinions tend to coalesce and become quite firmly fixed.
I was sorry to hear the turmoil you went through and the suffering your youngest son had to endure for eight years with Leukaemia from 6 to 14. Your son endured it and you got through without loss of faith of the Absolute Intelligent Designer (A.I.D.).
You’re right that no one truly knows the pain of another. If you know parents who have been through ordeals that shook their faith and destroyed it, I hope you do not hold it against them as the capacity of each person to withstand ordeals varies. If you accept that, then you can understand that the A.I.D. asks more than some people can bear. This is evident when people who believe, lose their faith after their ordeal. Unlike you, they do not see the beauty on the other side of the rainbow because for them there is no beauty, only the ugly outcome they dreaded. They may not be comforted by the thought that it’s for something BIGGER than you or me.
My own view is that there probably is no Creator or A.I.D., or if there is, It is unaware of our suffering being only interested in creation. I wrote a short essay on this referencing Vitalistic Theory and I’ve copied it to a separate post at the end of all the posts, if you or any other readers may be interested?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
The purpose of Life – a scientific perspective
by Dinos Constantinou
The trend for most intelligent people is towards secularism and with good reason: religious leaders have let people down with their claims to provide moral guidance and a promise of a better after-life. Instead, they imposed control and indirect taxation on people they were meant to serve, with the greatest burden on the poor, who could not imagine that they could get a better life without them! Additionally, they conserved ritualism, sacramentalism and religiosity to bore away present-day people seeking some spiritual uplift! Various philosophers have contributed much more towards an ethical approach to life than religious leaders have.
My short essay is an attempt to view life from a scientific perspective and to gaze in wonder at the beauty of our planet, which is teeming with life – hence my reference to Vitalistic Theory: The view that life, and all consequent biological phenomena, are due to a ‘vital force’. Suppose that the Being we call God is no more than this Vital Force?
God, or the Vital Force, has been extremely active on this planet: there are the plant and animal kingdoms with millions of varieties of species, and the fungi and the unicellular organisms (e.g. amoebas and plankton), and all the micro-organisms, e.g. bacteria and viruses.
Now the purpose of life is clear: each species is genetically configured to perpetuate itself; to compete for its existence with other species; to overcome adverse environmental factors by evolving; and, to flourish in environs that are favourable to it. Some become extinct but the Vital Force remains unaffected! There are still millions of forms of life that continue to exist. The God so many human beings pray to may be similarly unaffected.
The Vital Force theory may explain some of the mysteries of life for the human species. Without a need for benevolence, nor malevolence, all the miseries that we perceive as human beings (e.g. disease, famine and mental suffering) are merely the consequences of our struggle for survival, and the ability of relatively small groups of elite human beings to dominate the rest of us. In the past, religious leaders used to subdue and dominate the masses. Currently, elite groups of secretive organisations fulfil these roles. Examples may include the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Links for more info on these and other secretive organisations are included below:
http://listverse.com/2012/11/21/top-10-scandalous-freemason-secrets/
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/the-illuminati%28903482%29.htm
http://listverse.com/2007/08/27/top-10-secret-societies/
To conclude, the purpose of life for each species on this earth it is to: exist, reproduce and flourish. For most of us human beings, we also want to: enjoy our lives; love one another; avoid wars; respect our planet and all its life forms; engage in intellectual and artistic activities; enjoy hobbies and pastimes, and to improve the quality of life for ourselves and future generations.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Unless you are a spiritual person, then you won’t understand a song that says that every thing has
a purpose that there is no winning without pain, that every thing has a value, a price for which we must fight, even when we stumble….and what would be the point of winning if it would be so easy to get to the goal…Yes, I know, sometimes life has to beat us down so that we are able to
grow and reach a higher level of maturity, otherwise we wouldn’t know how to handle what is yet to come, even when the pain is cruel during those times, God will not allow us to remain there longer than we can resist. No, we don’t want to go through difficulties, but sometimes difficulties will allow for the gift within us to be awaken and forces us to come out of our comfort zone, that comfort that makes us to grapple to the ease. Only then we can move along with firmness toward our goal.
At the end is between us and our creator, not between the opinion of others about suffering and the creator.
I could tell you the story of my life that’s not necessarily the worst one because I didn’t starve when I was a child but my heart was starving for a father that I didn’t have, for a happy family that I never had, for a hug and a smile that I never had all of which was the result of my parent’s decisions. I was cheated many times, and I learned how painful it was so I told myself I would never cheat on any one while I was hurtful and offended with God because I didn’t understand why he allowed me to go though so much pain that I didn’t deserve but then I ended up cheating too, and I learned how painful it was to be betrated by my ownself, I learned how I shouldn’t trust even my best intentions because we are weak without God and I was unemployed once for 4 months with no money and at some point I was frustrated with God for closing all doors for a new job but I needed 4 months of misery to be able to understand how poor people feel so that I could remember my pain when I find a person in need
and be able to help them with happiness. I ended up finding a job once I realized that was the purpose of my unemployment gap. So all I am saying is that you shoulnd’t try to keep to understand why so may children are starving to be able to believe or not believe in God or to judge God’s justice. Only he knows what we need to go through and why.
Marleny. Your comment “a purpose that there is no winning without pain, that everything has a value, a price for which we must fight,” With all due respect, this cannot help a rape victim or a starving child when they are outside of their comfort zone as you so casually suggest.
You also comment “At the end is between us and our creator, not between the opinion of others about suffering and the creator.” An easy comment for Christians to preach if they have only endured nothing more than emotional pain.
Your unbelievable comment of absolute ignorance “Your shoulnd’t try to keep to understand why so may children are starving to be able to believe or not believe in God or to judge God’s justice. Only he knows what we need to go through and why.”
You obviously have no better answer as to why your dammed god kills so many children apart from “Only he knows what we need to go through and why.”
This is absolutely the most pathetic fantasy, and illogical rubbish a person with limited intelligence could hear. I appeal very strongly that you get on a plane as soon as possible and go to Africa and see some of the world’s real 6 million poor starving kids and tell them your story, because that should certainly give you some realistic emotional pain and misery.
Sklyjd,
I obviously don’t have the great skills you, Exodus and Dinos have to explain your points of view using the intellectual words you all use, but I am smart “enough” to understand every thing written on this blog and I feel if you are so smart as you are – because you are – then you must have understood that my comment about life and how every thing has a purpose and how sometimes pain takes us out of our comfort zone, etc. obviously doesn’t help a rape victim or a starving child. The only point I was trying to make was that along our lives we go through though times and every hard time has a purpose for our own grown that only God knows and only He knows what we need to go through and why. Of a child has no food in Africa, besides the reason being that yhe world is selfish and corrupted, there most be something else that I dont know in regards to the good will of God. I also dont have to go to Africa necessarily, I have watched World Vission and it was enough for me to patrocinate 2 kids since I am 21 years old and I am now 40. If that is too difficult to understand I dont know how else to explain it to you.
If our intelligence is going to be measured by much our points of views make sense to others then I would think you are the most foolish person for believing in evolution and the only smart people in the world to all atheist would be the ones believing in evolution. I may not be very skilled in exposing my points of view but I am not stupid and there are many people in this world with a superior intelligence whom believe in God by faith.
Marleny,
I apologise if I was a bit too direct with my comment to you, however it really annoys me when the problems of the planet are real and right in front of our faces yet you will condemn man for selfishness and corruption but in the same breath claim God is controlling us and allowing this to happen with “Only he knows what we need to go through and why.”
So, tell me does God have control or not according to your ideology? Most Christians claim he does when good things happen but then it is the devil taking control when bad things happen. Alternatively, many Christians claim God is in control all the time and because he created us, he has the right to give and take life as he sees fit. So, in both of these situations man cannot be blamed for anything that happens.
If, as many Christians claim we have been given free will by God to make our own decisions surely this means that God has no control at all and therefore is accountable for nothing good or bad that happens on earth, however they often claim Godly generated miracles so how do you figure that?
Please forgive me if I appear confused and do not believe any of these ancient superstitious beliefs because I believe in reality, and for your information the foremost intelligent scientists on this planet believe in the biological evolutionary principles because they are supported by a similar standard of high quality evidence and facts that determine the earth rotates around the sun, so you need to read a science book.
I understand the extremely difficult issues of unconscionable evil that have been brought up here. However, all of these arguments have been debated by top intellectuals on both sides of the fence over the ages. What always comes from these debates is always essentially this “One chooses to believe–or accept for the time being based on evidence–what one desires to believe.” No one has ever been able to ABSOLUTELY prove the existence of God or the non-existence of God. It all comes down to a choice. That said, the little boy going through such terrible torture for ten hours until ultimately murdered is an example of an evil that is exceptionally vile and difficult to accept. It does seem that God must have known this atrocity was happening, but chose not to do anything about it. I’m sure the little boy was crying out for even God to help at some point.
I didn’t read every comment here, but those I did that took the “God side” in the matter I’ll leave alone. I did want to add that there could be the following theological idea: The Bible has made it known that in the afterlife both “up there” and “down there” there will be various stages of eternal reward or punishment. That is to say that some people will be given an even greater eternal happiness (for lack of a better word) of an even greater eternal grief (for lack of a better word) dependent upon his/her dedication to the faith, works, deeds, SUFFERINGS, and so forth, and I suppose the opposite for those who shall be punished. Perhaps that horrifically tortured little boy might receive the highest eternal reward that God has to offer? Conjecture to be sure, at least from my relatively novice theology, but still an idea that could make for a theoretical discussion that has a more acceptable conclusion? I would also conjoin any such conjecture with the notion that God allows even unconscionable evil to make faith in Him all the more truly faith and not based at all on proof that he exists.
Blaise Pascal, an intellectual giant in even secular circles, said “In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don’t.”
I believe you have taken a practical view of this issue, however your comment “No one has ever been able to ABSOLUTELY prove the existence of God or the non-existence of God. It all comes down to a choice.” To me this suggests there may be an equal chance that the Christian God exists to the chances he does not. I think it is more than just a simple choice for most people and the evidence is quite clear that gods do not exist and the reasons are:
From the purely scientific and historic side of the argument it must be acknowledged that the reality of gods, creators and divine beings ever existing would be rejected by about -90% of the world’s major scientists and as close to absolute as you can get with most things in science.
From the neutral point of view using the written word and applying basic common sense, realism and practicality against information and stories in the scriptures these could only be 50% believed at best.
From the theist who was converted through an emotional indoctrination or from childhood using faith and the Bible as the argument for their god’s existence is always 100% and you will get nothing less than that.
Emotions and faith cannot and will never be a measure of any god’s existence as they are always extremely one sided and indoctrination is a mind-altering technique to control thoughts to support an ideology or political system without question.
Dear GigECJ,
Welcome to the forum.
You ended your piece with a quote from Blaise Pascal. I don’t doubt that he is a highly regarded intellectual but it does not follow that what he said about faith was profound. Although rather simply put, I think that these words from Epicurus were more helpful:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence came evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus (341 -270 BC)
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Mark 14:36 – “Abba, Father,” he cried out, “everything is possible for you. Please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”
Dear readers,
I believe, and the moderator who manages the website should correct me if I’m wrong, that this site is primarily or exclusively devoted to the description of God through Christianity, based mainly on what is referred to as The Holy Bible. This book of books has been elevated in status since the Reformation in the sixteenth century to something greater than the Pope, which it has usurped.
I think the main problem for both Atheists and Christians is the unreliability of the Bible. It purports to express what God wants from us and describes the miracles performed directly by Christ, and indirectly by His apostles, Moses et al, through whom God acted. It also seeks to prove its divinity through the ‘fulfilment’ of prophecy and through Biblical texts that claim all texts within it are God-breathed or inspired by God, or that Christ is the Word.
Instead, the Bible gives us a mixed bag of confusing texts and it is claimed that only the initiated can properly understand them. Such people quote the scriptures regularly to spread the Good News or to ‘prove’ something about God or to explain the ‘apparent’ contradictions by way of cross-referencing with other scriptures and they are often referred to as Apologetics.
Many Fundamentalist Christians regard God as a Being who is:
Omnibenevolent
Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient
Infinite
Paradoxically, they also describe God as ineffable (too great to be expressed in words). We have to smile. What then is the Bible?
Is God Omnibenevolent?
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Genesis 3:16King James Version (KJV)
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Is God Omnipotent?
How then did He allow Satan, who was banished from Heaven into the Garden of Eden and to tempt Eve?
Is God Omnipresent and Omniscient?
Genesis 3:8-11 King James Version (KJV)
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, “Where art thou?”
10 And he said, “I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked and I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
There are too many contradictions within the Bible to list here. I’ll just mention that Leviticus 20 lists several laws for which the punishment is the execution of the lawbreaker by the people. Thus they have to break the sixth of the Ten Commandments, “Thou shalt not kill.”
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
“…this site is primarily or exclusively devoted to the description of God through Christianity.”
Primarily, but not necessarily exclusively.
500Q
Hello 500Q,
“…this site is primarily or exclusively devoted to the description of God through Christianity.”
“Primarily, but not necessarily exclusively.” – 500Q
Thank you for clarifying this point.
Peace and love to you and your family,
Dinos
Some difficult and heart wrenching points to think through. Appreciate the honesty. I think many wrestle with this issue, whether Christian or not. It is very troubling this whole topic.
One point I would push back on is saying a person can’t conclude, in their utter grief at losing a child, that there is more to all this story than we can know at this time. I say this because Jesus sees a friend die (a man, not even a child), and cries out in indignation and sadness. The proper interpretation of that passage is that Jesus is deeply troubled by the reality of death in the world; he knows this is not how it is supposed to be. Death is indeed the greatest enemy.
And yet in his time on earth, Jesus doesn’t stop every child from dying. He heals a large number, but not all – and that is only in one small geographic region of the world.
So it seems like a great contradiction. Jesus – who said “if you know me you know the father” – weeps and is greatly disturbed by death. And yet he does not stop it when he clearly had the power to do so.
What reason would he have for not stopping death, especially the death of children?
I don’t know the answer to that. It is troubling. But I know that if I met someone who had lost a child, I could say (if they gave me permission to speak) with all certainty that God was mourning with them.
You bring up some good points Andrew. Your point about Jesus sadness when a friend dies it is also to note he wept for his enemies and himself before being crucified. Why did he show any emotions when he had the power to change what he already knew what was going to happen and why does he not use his awesome powers when they are truly needed?
God was grieved by the actions of mankind and seeing the wickedness of man was sorry he made man on earth. So, the fact that God is claimed to be all knowing or omniscience is in fact false. The whole issue about his powers is confusing and cobbled together like most of the Bible to try and make some sense from it so that people can have some faith that this superhero existed and the stories really happened.
The obvious and overwhelming conclusion to any thinking person is when you consider the contradictions and the many interpretations of the Bible as well as its long thousands of years’ history from the alleged writers to its compilation, it is clear we have a book that is far from what it is claimed to be, and the reality that the Christian God is as the rest of the world’s gods and the result of ancient mans insecurities.
God does not mourn for anyone, that much is well beyond doubt.
So there is no answer to why does God allow innocent children to suffer because what I read left an ending that said if we who are bad people in general would not Stand By and let somebody rape torture and kill an innocent child and God who loves all children stands idly by let’s it happen. So there is no answer to why God lets innocent children suffer consequently good and bad people surmise that there is no God for if there was a God why would he let that happen
Hello Sad adult,
Your argument is based on the premise that God is good. Indeed, He is referred to as omnibenevolent. God may still exist but we can see clearly that He is not omnibenevolent and the atrocities attributed to Him in the Bible would seem to confirm this. The Great Flood is a very good example. He spared only eight people!
Naturally, believers cannot accept this painful truth, assuming God exists and apologise for God by suggesting that He has a grand plan that we mortals cannot possibly understand and How dare we judge God? Well, our judgement is due to our ability to reason and to have empathy with others who suffer. If God exists then, He has only Himself to blame for endowing us with intelligence and empathy.
Another possibility is that God is simply indifferent to what happens to us, good or bad. He may be interested only in creating as many different life forms as He can imagine and nothing else matters to Him. We wonder why He felt it necessary to create a parasite that eats the brains of ants in order to reproduce and a link describing this is given below:
http://www.livescience.com/47751-zombie-fungus-picky-about-ant-brains.html
The mind boggles if this is truly the work of our magnificent Creator!
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Good comment. There is totally no god for all this bad things would not be happening in the world. We are just being brain washed. The so called bible states that god is our refuge in times of trouble but many have ran to him for refuge and have not been able to find it.
There is a perfect combination to misunderstand God.
Dear Heir,
I don’t think I’m alone to wonder what you mean by your eight-word comment. You’ve sacrificed clarity for brevity.
If there is a perfect combination to misunderstand God then why has He created it? Is He truly Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent or is it just what believers fancy of Him? And if He is lacking these three qualities why call Him God?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Hello Dino,
When reading your comments, I question this:
Do you believe a God DOES exist, however he is a bad god and he shouldn’t be worshiped or called God? Or – do you believe there is no God whatsoever?
There is totally no god. for if he exists, then all these bad things and uncurable diseases wouldn’t be there. Where is this this god where people are suffering from the cancers, going through un explainable pain.
Dear Heir,
I believe that the God described in the Holy Bible is more bad than good and just as unworthy of worship as the Gods of Greek and Roman mythology. I think that if the universe and all forms of life were created by an intelligent and powerful Being, that Being does not care for us any more than any other thinking creatures in the universe. There is human suffering everywhere and it is wholly wrong for a creator to blame the creatures. I think our concepts of God are unclear and our main source, the Bible, is unreliable and self-contradictory.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
There is an ant wondering who, when, how and why was the world Wide Web created, but if scientist Tim Berners tries to explain it to the ant, the ant would not understand it; an ant would have to understand our language to begin with and that’s imposible.
The ant will most likely die thinking the WWW was self-created due to its inability to comprehend the whole creation process , however Tim Berners will continue to be the creator, the inventor whether the ant believes it or not.
The WWW was created for a great benefit – instant communication – but it has been abused by humans to promote pornography. Cybernetic Pornography has destroyed many marriages, families, children.
An ant would never understand that Tim Berner’s intention was not evil by creating something that ended up destroying the society.
The human intelligence standing next to the universe can very well be compared to the intelligence of an ant trying to understand the explanation from Tim about the creation of the WWW and what was his true purpose behind his researches resulting in what we know as the WEB.
As much as this may be insulting to your intelligence, it is the reality.
A few days ago, 7 new planets similar to the Earth were discovered. They are 40 light-years away from our planet.
Isn’t that amazing? I wonder – how many planets are somewhere in our universe that will forever remain undiscovered?
The universe… astonishing and magnificent.
Psalm 19:1- The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork
Hi there,
I have always thought the ant example was an unfair comparison.
For one, we humans are much more intelligent than ants and able to differentiate between reality and fantasy (well, most of the time, anyway).
Second, just because one doesn’t understand how something works, that doesn’t mean we can’t logically rule things out. For example, you may not understand how an automobile works, but you can safely rule out magic, and hamsters running on hamster wheels.
Seeing as how the overwhelming majority of creation stories must be mythological (many are mutually exclusive), it stands to reason that humans like to make up stories, and millions like to believe them. Thus, the biblical explanation is more likely invented myth than actual fact. In fact, had you not been raised with the idea, you would find ancient myths about talking snakes and arks filled with animals to be primative and laughable nonsense.
So no, we are NOT ants, we’re perfectly capable of reasoning, and NOT understanding something does not mean we cannot rule many things out for being illogical, fanciful, or contradictory.
500Q
Hi 500questions,
I agree with you – we are not ants, that’s undisputable. I also agree that we are smarter than ants. Actually, our intelligence versus an ant’s Intelligence is NOT comparable; no arguments – HOWEVER – when you reflect on the perfection and impressiveness of our universe (humans included), you realize there is a creator (whether you believe in Christian’s God or not). Then you try to compare the creator’s intelligence versus our intelligence and I am sorry but it is also NOT comparable, it can only be compared with the ant’s example.
The ant’s example by the way is not something I have heard before ,I simply thought about it and it was the closest illustration I could use to expound my thoughts, specially because ants are fascinating and very intelligent creatures.
I might add to the great answer provided by 500Q. The God you speak of is supposed to be all knowing and is that what you believe?
If that is so, he would have known what his creation was going to turn out like in the future would he not?
When the Bible was written, the ancient people had no idea of what science and modern man was going to understand, and this fact is quite obvious from the scripture, therefore, it is impossible an omnipotent and powerful God ever inspired the Bible or ever existed outside of mans creative brain.
Hi sklyjd,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the Bible. I should add that believers often refer to God as ineffable (too great to be described in words). What then is the Bible?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Good reply Dino. I detest people when they begin “preaching” like they know or have talked to god face to face.This is just something people imagine it exists just like a script play. What kind of a father would threaten his children with violent punishment if they do not follow his instructions.If all have been considered sinners, who will then see the purported kingdom?
Hello Anonymous,
Anonymous says:
March 14, 2017, at 6:14 AM
“Good reply Dino. I detest people when they begin “preaching” like they know or have talked to god face to face.”
I’m guessing you are adding to the string of thoughts that include Shelley Rowland’s reply to my rebuff of James Hampton’s piece in which he “informed” all of us men that we are sinners?
According to the Bible, God already reduced mankind to just eight people, Noah and his family, by way of the Great Flood. You’d think that the offspring from these carefully chosen people should be more worthy of God’s kind consideration, but it appears that this is not so. But then, what would be Christ’s purpose?
The contradictions in the Bible are never-ending. Some believe that God has already chosen those of us who shall be saved; others say that belief in Christ our Saviour is what saves us. Then there is John’s gospel –
John 4:42 King James Version (KJV)
42 And said unto the woman, “Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.”
Maybe we’ll all be saved; we just have to suffer during our lives and accept the suffering of children until God decides what to do with us.
Or, perhaps belief in our species is a more natural and productive way forward?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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People believing there’s a God heaven and hell.well if that makes you feel better then do it.People have the right to choose which way they feel best.I myself just wanted to say that when a person passes in what ever way it may happen.That person doesn’t know that they ever lived,or anything,that is what is called resting in piece.And your body Is never seen anywhere again.I strongly say if you love someone on this earth enjoy them now,because there’s no after for anyone.Take care.
Very good statement. I like it. I always compare a dead person to a embroy in a woman’s womb. both know thing and they do not know where they are. But if by believing that there is a god high up, makes some please feel better, then that is ok but they should not impose their believes on others
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.”‘
Romans 14:11
Greetings Marleny,
It’s easy to make claims such as these when you never actually have to back them up. When EXACTLY will we be bowing down? This week? Next month? Next year?
Open-ended predictions are worthless, because they can never be discredited. Literally ANYONE could make this same claim, and they would never be proven false.
Luckily, Jesus DID state that this event would occur within one generation (see question #64). This prediction only became open-ended after it failed… and here we are… two THOUSAND years later… still waiting. How much more time do you need?
500Q 🙂
Dear 500 Questions. I wish all people had brains like yours. Many have been brained washed and shall wait for the coming of the so called lord or jesus in vain. I detest every thing about god because there is nothing like that in this world. We are born and we die period. We shall never bow to any thing.
To answer your question, we will bow before God the day he returns to this world. I don’t know when. He never said when. He did advise us to be watching out for certain events that would occur before his 2nd coming.
Christianity has been adultered, abused, sabotaged, falsified. True Christianity is way way more than what most called Christians preach including myself when I was doing the wrong things but defending God. I have dishonored the name of God with my actions but he has given me a new oportunity and I will do whatever it takes to clean the bad reputation I out on Jesus name even if that means going to my neighbirs home and ask them to forgive me for any bad testimony I have given them. I once said that I betrated someone which is a breach of one of the 10 commandments. The problem with most believers are that they dont really have God in their heart, and as much as they preach, if they dont have the Spirit of God , their actions will say the opposite. Being a Christian is more than going to a church every week or dressing this or that way. To be a Christian is to live imitating Jesus every second and having him as a filter for every action or word we speak.
I know God loves you 500 questions. I am not sure what have happened along your life that turned you into an enemy of God but don’t let the devil keep jostling you. The Apostle Paul was also an enemy of God until the day God stopped him. He truly believed he was doing the right thing. Maybe you think you are doing the right thing by trash talking God in a decent way or maybe you are simply lime Judas. You have nothing to win but much to lose.
I can pray for you if you ask me to. God will listen to me.
You will never understand every thing related to the mistery of salvation and the universe.
Hi Marleny,
Thank you for your reply.
I don’t believe I am an enemy of God, I simply no longer believe that he exists (it’s like saying I’m an enemy of unicorns).
I think, like thousands of other gods, he was simply the product of human imaginations, and the idea of God has been evolving in the minds of men over time. As the idea evolves, we see the same thing over and over: numerous claims and arguments that can never be proven or falsified.
But I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you a chance. I’ll wager that your God doesn’t exist, and as such, he’s knows nothing, and can’t even do the smallest thing. I ask that you pray on my behalf, and that God delivers to you the next six numbers for the California Powerball Lottery (it’s up to 50 million!). In two days, I’ll place a bet on whatever numbers God gives you. If you win, I’ll take down this site, and donate the entire sum to the Christian charity of your choosing (or his choosing). I’m sure the sick and the poor could use it! (Or does God not care about them?)
Keep in mind that I’m not asking for God to appear to me in person, or even do a fantastic miracle. In fact, even if you ARE correct, it could still be construed as a mere coincidence by skeptics. It won’t PROVE that God exists, but it will be convincing enough for me to change my beliefs.
The truth is, all you can offer is excuses about how God won’t work that way, or claim God desires blind faith (for some odd reason). But just as Jesus cannot return (because he’s not God), God cannot predict simple lottery numbers (because he does not exist). Or… you could try to prove me wrong…
500Q 🙂
Immediately after I read your proposition, I thought about Isaiah 55 : 8 – 9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says: Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. But if you want to test him, you can do so on the tithes. Malachi 3: 10 says: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and PROVE ME NOW herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. On Apr 6, 2017 6:25 PM, “500 Questions about God & Christianity” wrote:
> 500 Questions commented: “Hi Marleny, Thank you for your reply. I don’t > believe I am an enemy of God, I simply no longer believe that he exists > (it’s like saying I’m an enemy of unicorns). I think, like thousands of > other gods, he was simply the product of human imagina” >
The reason I do not find these kinds excuses convincing is that anyone can use them. (They are the same played-out excuses that have been keeping Christianity afloat for 2000 years.)
For example, I could say, “My god is named Rick. Rick is invisible but he wants YOU to believe he exists. Why? How should I know? Rick’s ways are HIGHER than our ways! Can you prove they are not? I didn’t think so! So just believe in Rick!” It’s easy to claim, difficult to disprove. All I’m asking is for better evidence for God than for Rick.
Similarly, one could say, “Rick wants to PROVE to you he exists! Give me some of your money, and you Rick will reward you with more!” Uh… no.
Firstly, it would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to prove that there was any kind of correlation between tithes and returns. There are billions of poor people who tithe, and billionaires who do not. If ONLY tithers became rich, we might suspect there is some kind of correlation, but that’s certainly not the case.
Second, if this is the ONLY way God is going to allow us to test him, then it’s not a very good test, especially without more concrete results.
Personally speaking, I tithed for decades, and can’t say it made any difference. Since I’ve stopped tithing, however, we’ve doubled our income. Meanwhile, my mother tithed her entire life, and now she’s broke… and lives on Social Security. I’m not saying this is proof of the opposite, it’s just anecdotal evidence, but I don’t think there is any real-world correlation. (And even if there was, there could be other social factors tied to religion that benefit tithers more than non-religious folk.)
Anyway, I would recommend question #61. The Bible gives many examples of people testing God. In fact, he even berates idols for not being able to provide clear evidence of their power. I’m asking for far less than what God demanded of the idols.
So… lotto numbers?
500Q
If you want to know the God I serve who is invisible to us but who does exist, believe by faith and if you have no faith, ask him for faith, then get baptize, receive the Holly Spirit and only then He will reveal to you in ways you never imagine.
On Apr 6, 2017 8:09 PM, “500 Questions about God & Christianity” wrote:
> 500 Questions commented: “The reason I do not find these kinds excuses > convincing is that anyone can use them. (They are the same played-out > excuses that have been keeping Christianity afloat for 2000 years.) For > example, I could say, “My god is named Rick. Rick is invisible bu” >
Marleny, many people have done exactly what you have suggested and have come away with nothing.
Besides, I only get the Holly Spirit in December.
Thanks once again, but as someone who was saved for 30 years, and can (still) speak in tongues (oddly enough), I don’t think this excuse will work, either.
I’m not sure how many times I need to repeat this, but literally ANYONE could claim this same thing.
For example, I once had some young Mormons tell me to pray about the Book of Mormon, and that God would confirm with my spirit that it was true. Obviously, a lot of people fall for this. Not because God has anything to do with it, but because they REALLY want to believe it’s true. I didn’t, and it didn’t work for me. But we all see and hear what we want to see and hear, and interpret it differently.
That said, I want you to believe in Rick. If you pray to him, he WILL prove it to you in a myriad of ways. In fact, every good thing that happens to you next week, is Rick’s way of telling you he loves you and he’s looking out for you. Besides, you don’t want to die and go to Rick-hell do you? (If you do, his step-brother Ronald tortures you forever. Best to believe, just to be safe.)
Still waiting on those lotto numbers,
500Q
Like I told you before, there are many false Christians and doctrines and churches. If you were saved for 30 years and ended up with nothing, you were not drinking from the fountain of living water but you were just there filling a space and doing what you were told was right to do but you never had a relationship with God.
I have been in churches as a visitor where people have been speaking in tongues but their life speaks higher I God forbit that I say a word to judge others speaking in tongues but if your fruits dont speak well about who you are, then I dont know what tongue are they speaking but one thing I know, its not the spirit of God.
Its written on the bible that you will know true christians by their fruits,.which means that you will find false christians along the way but the fruits of the spirits are love, patience, forgiveness, understanding, and many others. There is a very popular christian pastor these days called Joel Osteen who is millionary but his preaching is not biblically founded and still he claims to be a Christian and has thousands of followers, reason why he is a millionary leaving from the tithes of his members and preaching what every one wants to hear so that they can be happy. Thats not christianity, 500 Questions commented: “Thanks once again, but as someone who was saved for 30 years, and can (still) speak in tongues (oddly enough), I don’t think this excuse will work, either. I’m not sure how many times I need to repeat this, but literally ANYONE could claim this same t”
About the lotto numbers, thats not something I would ask God. Not only because he wont give me an answer but also because your motivation is not genuine clear.
Jesus said we ask and dont receive because we asked the wrong things. The bible says every thing you ask with faith, you will receive but if you ask God to kill your neighbor because he is annoying, you will never receive the answer to your prayer as much faith as you think you have. Ask God to get u a job at a place you have ever dreamed of but that God knows you will fall in love at that place with another man thats not your husband, most likely he wont open that door for you and if he does, most likely will be to proof your weakeness and to guide you through trials that will make you stronger in that area.
Ask according to the will of God who is holy and knows whats best for us.
People have asked that their missing children be returned safely to them, yet often those children turn up dead, murdered , days or even years later. Were those who prayed asking for something unreasonable?
Dear Marleny, where did you meet and and talked to god. As per your statement, looks like you have talked to him face to face. Please do not say to me it is the bible because it was a “cooked up” book by some ancient guys.
Hello Marleny,
There is little point in referring to god as beyond our understanding. You must know that the writers of scriptures who wrote this were living in a time of much ignorance. For example, they did not know that disease was caused by microscopic organisms or that visible white light was made up of seven colours. But we have read about God in the Ten Commandments and there is no mystery about Him in the first four of them, see below –
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
It’s my opinion that to write that God is beyond understanding is evasive and unworthy of stating in a discussion forum. It may be that you have not searched hard enough to answer better?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Good Morning Dinos,
I will respond to you in the afternoon.when I get off from work. I have something to share with you. On Apr 6, 2017 11:53 PM, “500 Questions about God & Christianity” wrote:
> dinoconstant commented: “Hello Marleny, There is little point in referring > to god as beyond our understanding. You must know that the writers of > scriptures who wrote this were living in a time of much ignorance. For > example, they did not know that disease was caused by microsc” >
Hello Dinos,
I disagree with the last part of your comment. In response I will send you a portion of Job 38:
Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions?Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring lineacross it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a ] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? 18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, 23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? 24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east windsare scattered over the earth? 25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, 26 to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, 27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass? 28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains[b ] of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? 32 Can you bring forth the constellationsin their seasons[c ] or lead out the Bear[d ] with its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s[e ] dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’? 36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f ] or gives the rooster understanding?[g ] 37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens 38 when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions 40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
A fascinating religious way to look at why children die. We all die one way or another through random accidents and diseases etc. This is the natural way as it is within the animal kingdom to keep the population at a certain level and often with death it takes away diseases that will not be passed onto others. It has nothing to do with any gods cursing the ground.
Leaving the pool gate open and accidently killing a child is a mistake and this is also a natural and inevitable part of our lives just as the criminal element and natural disasters. All this is due to random events or bad behaviour planed by random criminals. God or anyone else did not decide who will be a victim or die and who will not, if that is also part of your ideology.
This all boils down to randomness, luck, chance and is all natural and has nothing to do with “God’s greater purpose.”
You say: “he needs to provide natural evils occurring in regular ways in consequence of natural processes. Or rather, he needs to do this if he is not to give us too evident an awareness of his presence.”
He provides death and destruction but does not want us to be aware of his presence, yet he wants everyone to love and worship him. This is the same type of logic all religions appear to always use to justify their gods existence, his actions and so called morals.
It is easy enough to work out how life works is it not? We are exactly like any other animal on this planet we adapt and evolve to survive the best we can. This does not have any other meaning and people do not get whisked up to a another life in heaven or a hell. This is reality and you should get used to it.
I like your statement ” We are exactly like any other animal on this planet we adapt and evolve to survive the best we can. This does not have any other meaning and people do not get whisked up to a another life in heaven or a hell.” It is the same thing I always mention and many have taken me a mad woman but I have stood my grounds. We humans are like any other animals no difference.
Hi 500Q and all interested in knowing the truth, please take the time to watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC-yZclradQ This will answer all of your questions about why children suffer, etc. Just as we expected Christianity is deception. There isn’t some all male god watching over us. Watch this awesome video to reveal insight you’ve never knew before. 500Q you seem like a smart person, I only ask that you watch it with an open mind. Try to imagine, what if this is true? I believe its a very accurate and informative video and I guarantee you wont dispute it directly. And you’ll then see the reasons for the suffering. When asking your question, you were assuming IF Christianity were true. But we all know its not. It’s been altered and changed from the original. And anyone with a brain would know this considering we live in a corrupt world where anyone in power can change what they don’t wish for us to know. The history books also been altered, so basically don’t believe what you hear or you will be deceived. Look within yourself and see if it resonates with this video. Here is the link- Please post this 500Q it’s not off topic, this goes into the TRUTH. And without this, your question can never be answered. I am not the author of the video and I am not promoting anything except knowledge. Youtube censored this guy! Why? Because he’s on to something! They dont censor all the jesus slave videos! Thank you…… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC-yZclradQ
Lost me after the first 20 seconds. Mother + Father = Swastika… whoooa… back up a little. WTF is this guy talking about?
Is this part of some kind of religion or “ism?”
I skipped around a bit, and he seems to be making one biased and random association after another, trying to establish a claim, but with no real substantive grounds for any of it. Much like a conspiracy theorist, or a numerologist.
Whatever the truth may be, I seriously doubt this guy has it.
500Q
Hello Viva,
My comment to you was rejected and amother one is missing. I have been responding directly by email and it may be the reason why. Any ways here is what I said with some editing on the spelling, etc.
Your question answers itself. My grandmother lost her daughter at the age of 12; she died from a throat’s infection. God did not heal her.
You must have an intrinsic relationship with God to assimilate and discern other dimensions of life’s tragedies. Here is a very interesting article you might want to read from Clay Jones who is associate professor in the master of arts in Christian apologetics and the existence of evil.
**Perhaps the most difficult and emotionally charged question ever asked the pastor or apologist is why God let a particular child suffer or die. The question is rarely abstract. I’ve never been asked why God lets children die. I’m asked why God let six-year-old Ethan get killed by a car while he was skateboarding or why God let four-year-old Kaylee die of leukemia. The typical Christian answer is, “We won’t know until we get to heaven.” Of course, we will certainly know more when we get to heaven, but is that all we can answer? I suggest we know more than that. We may not know all of God’s reasons for letting a particular child die at a particular moment, but we can answer why God allows children to die.
Note that this article isn’t directed toward those who have just lost a child. My wife, Jean, and I experienced five miscarriages, which led to our never having children and we know firsthand what it is like to have Christians try to “solve” grief.1 Those who grieve rarely search for explanations of how God works in the universe. Instead, they need hugs and maybe meals. The Scripture tells us to “weep with those who weep” (Rom. 12:15). But there comes a time, when the initial anguish subsides, that people seek the larger picture of what God is doing in the universe.
WHAT CAUSES CHILDREN TO SUFFER AND DIE?
Children suffer and die due to three main causes. First, children suffer and die due to pestilence and disease enabled when the Lord cursed the ground after Adam and Eve sinned. He banished Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, thus barring humans from the rejuvenating power of the Tree of Life. God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, “you will surely die” (Gen. 2:17), and He didn’t add “at a ripe old age of natural causes.” He just said, “You will surely die,” and we’ve been attending funerals ever since. Second, children also suffer and die because of the mistakes and sins of others, such as leaving a pool gate unsecured, drunk driving, murder, and so on. Third, children suffer and die because natural laws work in regular ways: the gravity that keeps us on planet Earth also enables fatal falls; the fire that warms also burns; the water in which we swim can also drown.
Disease, sins, and consistent natural laws, then, are the main reasons that children die. That brings us to the question, why doesn’t God afford children special protection?
THE IMPORTANCE OF OUR HUMILITY
Although I said above that we can do more than just say, “We’ll find out in heaven,” that doesn’t mean that humility isn’t a part of our answer! It is. After all, since we don’t know what we don’t know, especially in such circumstances, how we judge the meaning and significance of a situation requires giving God the benefit of the doubt. That’s where humility and faith play their parts.
I must say, however, that every Christian I have ever known who has suffered a severe loss, and remained faithful, in time understands how God has used that suffering for good. There is an “already, not yet” aspect to our understanding. I expect that in kingdom come we’ll fully understand God’s greater purpose.
That said, we can go beyond just, “We’ll find out in heaven,” so let’s look first at why free will requires God’s hiddenness and what role that plays in the answer to why God lets children die.
THE NECESSITY OF FREE WILL AND GOD’S HIDDENNESS
In Matthew 12:38–39, when some of the “scribes and Pharisees” told Jesus, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you,” He answered, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah,” by which He referred to His resurrection. Because the Lord doesn’t want to interfere with our free will, He gives enough evidence of His existence so that those who want to believe will have their beliefs justified, but not so much evidence that those who don’t want to believe will be forced to feign loyalty. Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne puts this in perspective:
If God is to allow us to acquire knowledge by learning from experience and above all to allow us to choose whether to acquire knowledge at all or even to allow us to have a very well-justified knowledge of the consequences of our actions—knowledge which we need if we are to have a free and efficacious choice between good and bad—he needs to provide natural evils occurring in regular ways in consequence of natural processes. Or rather, he needs to do this if he is not to give us too evident an awareness of his presence.2
Isaiah wrote, “Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior” (Isa. 45:15). A miracle-filled world diminishes the significance of our actions and compels the rebel to feign allegiance.
THE PROBLEM WITH CHILDHOOD INDESTRUCTIBILITY
For those who wish God would afford children with more protection, the problem arises as to exactly how God would keep bad things from happening to children without displaying millions of miracles every day.
I’ve had this kind of conversation many times, and it typically goes like this. Someone asks whether God was unfair for letting Kaylee die from leukemia. I respond, “But it’s not just Kaylee that you’re concerned about, right? I mean, you don’t think God should let any child die of cancer, right?” They always agree to this point. After all, you’d have to be a selfish swine to say that you only cared if one child died of cancer and not others. Then I point out that it’s not just cancer, right? I mean, you don’t think children should die of other horrible diseases, right? They always agree to this too. Then I ask, but it’s not just disease, right? You don’t think God should let children drown, or be crushed by boulders, or burn in fires, or be murdered, right? They always agree. But then I point out that it isn’t just death, right? After all, you don’t think children should be maimed or raped, right? They always agree. So finally, I ask, well, if all this is true, if children shouldn’t be able to suffer being raped or maimed, or to die from murder, accident, or disease, then to what age do you think children should be indestructible?
At this most start laughing because they realize the absurdity of indestructible children. In fact, when you change the question from why God allowed a particular child to die to why God allows children to die, the question almost answers itself.
But rarely someone gives ages. One woman blurted out, “Twelve.” But this quickly falls apart. After all, she didn’t really think it would be okay for God to let thirteen-year-olds be raped or die from murder, accident, or disease, did she? Is it any different for the seventeen-year-old? Wouldn’t those who argue that children should be indestructible until a certain age still accuse God of unfairness?
But perhaps the biggest problem with indestructible children regards the mechanism required to keep these children from being seriously injured or killed. Again, God couldn’t do tens of thousands of miracles every day without causing those who don’t want to worship Him to feign loyalty.
Also, a child’s actions wouldn’t mean much. For example, Johnny could be cutting his steak next to his little brother Jimmy and suddenly jam his knife into Jimmy’s side and God could make the knife turn to rubber. The whole family could laugh heartily—but that’s a cartoon world.3 In such a world, we could encourage our kids to go play marbles in the freeway: “You’ll just bounce around a lot.” In such a world, children wouldn’t learn morality because many of their choices would lack moral consequences.
Now, I suspect the more serious answer will be that God should every day orchestrate tens of thousands of providential occurrences to protect children. But if God constantly worked through providences, then God would still have to interfere constantly with free will. For example, how does God prevent parents from getting drunk, or texting, or nodding off, while driving? How does God providentially keep all children everywhere at all times from the fatal occurrences that might afflict other family members? How would God providentially keep all children from being harmed by the intentional cruelty of adults? He couldn’t do all these things unless He was to make Himself unmistakably apparent. After all, even the most dull-witted person would conclude, sooner or later, that there’s something about the universe that prevents children from coming to harm. In the real world, parents and their children must learn to be responsible because natural laws do work in regular ways.
And suffering has other benefits.
WHAT GOOD MIGHT ARISE FROM A WORLD IN WHICH CHILDREN DIE?
Many important spiritual lessons are learned from the suffering and/or death of children—courage, patience, compassion, selflessness, humility, and so on—but I’m going to focus on perhaps the most important. From the death of children, whether other people’s children or our own, we learn that we can never base our ultimate happiness on this world. The American Dream—that we can have our kids grow up, graduate, achieve successful careers, marry great spouses, and have wonderful children, and through whose children, and children’s children, we can gain a sense of immortality—is forever in danger. There is nothing worldly that we can count on, including what most people love most: their children. Instead, we must look to God for our ultimate and eternal fulfillment.
Only worshippers of God can accept this. We shouldn’t expect those who only live for this life not to bitterly complain that God is unfair for threatening what to them is supremely valuable and their best chance for a semblance of immortality.
Suffering can be valuable for children, too. As a child, rheumatic fever damaged my heart and caused my parents and doctors to fear for my life. But I thank God for that because it gave me a strong sense of my own mortality, which has benefited me spiritually ever since!
Visit
http://www.equip.org/christian-research-journal/ to read full article.
Please note: I haven’t rejected any comments, so not sure where the problem is.
I didn’t think it was you, I received this automatic message below
Howdy!
We ran into a problem with your recent comment reply by email. Specifically, we weren’t able to find your comment in the email.
We’ll do our best to get this fixed up. In the meantime, you may want to comment directly on the post:
https://500questions.wordpress.com/2011/06/05/17-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer-and-die 500 Questions commented: “Please note: I haven’t rejected any comments, so not sure where the problem is.”
Good to know, thanks. (I try not to delete any comments unless they are spam or entirely inappropriate.)
Hello Marleny,
Thank you for your response.
I’m not sure what your point is by referring to Job 38? To me, it’s ironical that God takes Job to task for believing himself to be righteous ( the sin of pride) and then boasts about all He has done and belittles Job. Below is an extract from a website that I found interesting –
Paul Schneider says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:27 am
That is God didn’t order the Satan to do anything with here. Remember, the Satan is doing all of this according to the wishes of God. By the way, Job is not the oldest book. Your dating of Job is based on the false premise that since Job is described as an Edomite patriarch, he must have lived in the time of the Hebrew patriarchs. But Edom didn’t exist at that time. The Hebrew of Job is not classical/biblical Hebrew. There are loan words from Arabic and Aramaic, the latter showing that it had to have been written during or after the Persian period in the History of Judah.
As for the purpose of the book, it is a criticism against some of the sages of the Israelite Wisdom Tradition. Some sages believed that they knew how the God of Israel thinks because they believed thew knew how the world works. Hence, they believed they knew God’s mind. For the author of Job, he criticizes their thinking, which is represented by Job’s friends and also Job, i.e., God only punishes those who have sinned, that only bad people suffer. This is why Job is so furious and refuses to repent for a sin he doesn’t know anything about. And in the end, God tells Job that he has no right to know why he is suffering because he is just a human being.
Point of the story is that bad things happen to good people. Why? God knows but he is not telling. However, the readers know why Job is suffering and it is because of a bet between God and the Satan. By the way, the Satan here is not the Satan in later forms of Judaism and Christianity. He is a member of the heavenly court who comes to earth to discover who has been loyal to Yahweh or not among the Jews. We are dealing here with a book that was most likely written in the 4th century B.C.E. He is not evil here, etc. That will come about 100 to 160 years later in literature that never entered the Bible.
Furthermore, when it comes to Job being Edomite, Jewish readers would care less about his predicament since the Edomites betrayed their Israelite cousins by siding with the Babylonians when Jerusalem fell to them in 587 B.C.E. One of the reasons why you have a number of post-Exilic prophets calling for the genocide of the Edomites.
This criticism of the Israelite Wisdom Tradition is also found in Ecclesiastes, which was probably written close to the time of the composition of Job.
The first four of the Ten Commandments that I presented to you were very clear in their meaning to me:
1) the god described is a jealous god;
2) He acknowledged the existence of other lesser gods;
3) He punished Israelites who worshipped other gods and hated Him and punished their descendants down to the third and fourth generations.
This is not a description of a good god by the standards of people of reason and through the study of ethics.
I hope that I have made my thoughts clearer to you even though you may find them disagreeable.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
On godandscience.org answers for atheists I’ve read that when God killed all the babies with the flood, Sodom and Gomorra and Jericho and so on… God did the babies a favor. They would instantly go to heaven. So in that way we should be grateful to all baby killers. The babies wouldnt be able to grow up, to sin and go to hell, but go directly to heaven. The best thing to do is let one man kill all the babies on the world and they all will go to heaven and only one man goes to hell. So in a way this man sacrifices himself for all mankind! He would be a hero!
It’s just stupid of us we don’t do this, or wait….
Hi Ruben,
It’s this kind of wonky logic that has led some to kill babies. Luckily it doesn’t happen more often. Case in point: http://nowiknow.com/the-worlds-worst-loophole/
500Q
True, God killed all the babies with the flood, In fire…Sodom and Gomorrah and Jericho and even now…everywhere God did the babies a favor because otherwise they would have been called as Bas***D for the SIN committed by their Biological Mother and Father!
Not all Babies BORN in this world are dying? Has anyone dared to ask WHY?
God will be overrun with babies in heaven, thousands die from starvation every day so possibly not enough room up there or not enough baby sitters to look after them all, and I would guess he will be back on Earth very soon to get some rest because even a god will eventually be driven to escape the constant noise.
I love this. Thanks. Sure he come on earth to look for some rest.
Hey, don’t try to rationalize why God allows suffering,PERIOD! He/she/it doesn’t allow or disallow anything at all. God could only get credit for either if God actually existed. Blaming God for anything at all is pointless because you’d first have to prove God exists before you could blame him/her/it for it. Blaming imaginary entities for non-fictional events, no matter what they are, is a fruitless endeavor. Now, were God to actually exist, and it is true that God answers all prayers even if the answer is sometimes (all the time,actually) no, how do you reconcile God’s failure to hear the pleas of the “least guilty” of us with the immense morality attributed to this deity? Oh, I know, “God works in mysterious ways”. SERIOUSLY?
I like this. Sure god is an imaginary entity. I this this was just created by the elites so that they can be able to control the masses.I get irritated when believers say jesus is coming back soon. When? this statement has been there even before my grand father was born.The authors of the bible did not think that at some time there would come more people who are more knowledgeable than them.
I personally I know there is nothing like god in the world. We live by nature. I do believe in science.
There is an easy answer to all of this. There obviously is no such thing as God. No one will believe in such a stupid belief in the future. Unfortunately, we all have to live with the remnants of the past and this backward ideology or belief system. It is impossible to debate with a religious person because they’re completely irrational and a fanatic in their belief which they have no proof of. They have been brainwashed and other people have to suffer as a consequence. It annoys me that so much energy is wasted on such a pile of nonsense instead of dedicating our efforts into helping people not to suffer. All these silly religions just perpetuate all the suffering. They are very cruel and need to be eradicated. Basically, however, you would define evil you have to say that having religions in the world is the biggest evil you can never have. Whatever good is, it certainly has nothing to do with religions. The most vile evilness ever written will be found in religious texts. And to think that thousands of years after these disgusting texts of being written, people are still carrying out the evil punishments and killings encouraged by these texts.
Many thanks Edna. I wish if all people had brains like yours, the world would be the best place to live in.All this is just because the elite want to control the helpless.
Only human know what is good and sin so for doing sin in one human life god has created 84 lakh species to give them punishment other species are only born to get punished for the sin they have done in human birth crores of sin in one human life and we get punished we born and die the process of birth and death can end only in human life the main reason for suffering is desire and attachment
To end. Suffering
Remove desire
Remove. Attachment
Everything belong s to god
He has the right to take back
Everything u have today
U will loose. It one day
Because it belongs to god not u
Your body
Your. Mother. Father. Son wife wealth health
We suffer. Because.
Which belongs to god.
We think as our
Attachment and. Desire
And. I want
Are. The root. Cause of suffering
Me. And. Mine.
Are. Main reason of suffering
500Q,
Do you know what God’s reason is to take away King David’s illegitimate baby’s life?
Why should He punish that innocent baby?
Hi mswindows10,
It’s not uncommon for God to allow for the death of children as vengeance on their parents. In this case it was because of David’s sin, but I get what you’re saying. God should punish David for what he did wrong, not his son. Give David warts or something. Punish the guilty, not the innocent.
500Q
Hello mswindows10
Those who believe in the Biblical God rationalise the problems of giving their God attributes that are clearly contradictory. We hear that everything we consider bad that God does or allows to happen is for our benefit, that there is a grand scheme, that it’s God’s justice, etc. Clearly, if we are truly honest we should see that such a Being has a streak of malevolence or is not omnipotent or subjects Himself willingly to His own laws as appropriate. This begs the question as to whether we need to describe Him as ‘God’.
Remember the stories in the Bible: how it was Adam and Eve’s fault for eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil? How they hid from God who is described as omnipresent? How God was so angry with mankind that He caused a worldwide flood destroying all life except for the occupants of the Ark? This included all human beings except for Noah and his wife and his three sons and their wives, so if these were the best human beings how did evil return to the world?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Everything that is born will die
Even you and me
We are punished today
For sins done in previous lives
For sins done in this. Life
We will. Be. Punished
when these sins get. Mature
Sin are. Like seeds
Punishment are like seeds grown as tree
Agreed about Nature. If we are in fact just physically evolved beings- conciousness originating and dying completely within the brain, no existence before our physical birth and none after physical death, it would appear there is no Supreme Being (s). Which means this brief life, all that happens within it, all the interrelationships and experiences that each person has, are essentially meaningless. Including diseased brains which did not properly develop during the physical evolution and degenerated into murderers of women, children and small animals. It doesn’t explain where love and emotions come from, but likely they’re just another aspect of the evolutionary path.
Sickening, isn’t it? A cosmic joke on us. And the saddest part, Nature being mindless, there isn’t even Someone to blame for the cruelty, pain, suffering, and even more contemptible, the indifference. And of course it means there is no afterlife or loving persons waiting for those who’ve endured unimaginable suffering here, especially children. No loving family awaits, no beloved pets to run to us.
Believe that? Somehow I have trouble with the above idea. Deep within it does not seem right.
I suspect there is a great deal more to who and what we really are. Near Death Experiences are being reported world wide. They appear to be more than simply brain activity. They involve people, love and some understanding of what awaits us. It may sound fantastic, but look: we are made up
of atoms and molecules, arranged differently than those which make up a chair or a flower, etc.
Is it too fantastic to postulate that after physical death we are still intelligent and concious in a different form, a rearrangement of those atoms and molecules? That a benign and incomprehensible situation is there for us, for the kids, for the pets? I dont’t subscribe to an
organized religion. Only thing that even made a bit of sense were the explanations given by the Seth entity through Jane Roberts. No way to prove his existence or her validity- BUT- I am saying
that those writings hit a chord which said- yep- this may be it.
Whatever the case, I think there is a great deal more going on than we are privy to in this very
brief physical existence. I think that whomever is running the show knows that after this it’s ok.
Somehow, the incredible suffering and terror endured by those here is nullified and made right in a manner we cannot understand during our three dimensional physical life. Simplify it a bit- it’s going to be like you had a bad dream- then awakened safe and happy. Although I am not of orthodox religion, I did once read that God didn’t promise a smooth ride- just a safe landing. Let us take heart.
Dear Bill,
Thank you for your effort to try to explain the purpose of life, if I understood your post correctly.
The purpose of life is simple: for each species, it is a struggle to survive, and to thrive within its environment and against other life forms that compete for its food. Has a Supreme Being created it this way or did it arise naturally from a universe, from multiverses or metaverses, nobody really knows?
For beings like us who have special brains and unlike dolphins considered to be of similar intelligence, a desire to change things, to improve, and with hands sufficiently dexterous to achieve our aspirations a new story emerged. Earlier in our history, leaders emerged who wanted to control the masses of the ancient civilisations. Below is a timeline of civilisations:
https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/civilization/
No doubt you aware of the ancient gods: the rivers that brought life and the volcanos that brought death and in a bid to compete in the game of my god is more powerful than your god, we invented the ultimate god, the Supreme Being who created the universe, everything in it and all life. The problem: we assigned to Him (note the male gender) attributes that contradict one another. As Epicurus (341 – 270 BC) put it:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence came evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus failed to see the possibility that an omnipotent God may be both Benevolent and Malevolent, hence good and evil can co-exist:
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
The problem I have with the concept of an afterlife is that it allows countries that profess to be Christian to go to war with other countries because God will save the good and damn the bad. Our earthly life is devalued because there is another life to look forward to – a better life, if we are good but we are uncertain of how we earn this privilege.
In most civilised countries, we consider murder as one of the worst crimes among others such as torture, enslavement, forced prostitution, false imprisonment, abduction, rape and child molestation.
The same countries waged recent wars against lesser countries, hence the USA and the UK against Afganistan, Iraq (where were those WMDs?), Syria and Lebanon to name a few.
This is what Albert Einstein had to say about war,
“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.”
I repeat it’s the concept of an afterlife that permits the atrocities of war by countries who profess to be Christian on countries of lesser might or sophistication of weapons of war and guess what? Children are killed by wars – so-called collateral damage. Do you think this is acceptable?
I could say more but in the interest of dialogue, I’ll let you respond first.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Love the Einstein quote.
My son asked last week, “What would happen if we personally felt the pain we inflicted upon others?” If that were to happen, I imagine war would come to an abrupt end, and the meaning of “Do unto others” would become much more obvious.
500Q
Thank you!
I agree with you. We who live in powerful countries are spared the reality of real war. We experience ‘acts of terror’ that I do not condone but we are not continually in fear of our lives as the people of Syria were.
My father was a storekeeper in the British army in Cyprus during the uprising of the fight for its independence in the 1950s. Members of the Freedom Fighters from the EOKA organisation led by General Grivas asked him to provide a schematic drawing of the army base. He made the decision to emigrate to England and the rest of us followed about six months later when he had secured work and a place for us to live. I became a pacifist when he told me the story and I understood its significance.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
Because God is nothing but a filthy [expletives deleted] that should burn in hell with Satan for creating so much Evil in this world in the first place. And there is no reason at all why many of us innocent good people and children have to suffer in the first place.
God hates these atrocities more than we do, and the only reason you and the others contributing here hate them is because God made you in his image. He gave us free will, if we use our imaginations to carry out evil we will pay the price. He does not create these kinds of immorality. He will wipe away every tear of the victims and cast into the fire those who deserve it – make no mistake.
Believe me, I’m human just like you – we’re all in this together, and I have asked and suffered through the hard questions too – such as:
I’ve wondered about God’s role in the design of evil(specifically immoral) things that happen in this world. Did he design or create every detail of sin even the most heinous?
Consider God’s Sovereignty
Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand. Micah 2:1
If a person “devises something”, uses their own imagination – perhaps this means that God just set up the parameters and we have our own way within it. If we choose God and love, he works through us to that end, with his desires and imagination. If we choose selfishness and evil, our flesh and it’s desires, along with the enemies influence – together devise the immoral atrocities.
Makes more sense to me than God actually inventing evil deeds to be carried out by us, if we choose to walk in sin.
Thankfully I found some “whew”:
Supporting Perspectives
John Calvin
. . . the Lord had declared that “everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good” [Genesis 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity-which is closer to us-rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God’s predestination. [Institutes, 3:23:8]
Barne’s Notes
Barnes’ Notes, a Bible commentary, has this helpful additional comment: “The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God” (notes on Isaiah 45:7).
It appears to me Dan, that God wants to be the recipient of only of the good and loving aspects of Christianity. He has elevated himself to the ultimate hero by sacrificing his son to save every human who will walk on the planet. Of course, this does not come without terms and conditions because he makes it absolutely clear that he is God the creator and he wants everybody’s undying devotion for the entirety of your life on Earth before you receive the sweetener of eternal life in a place called heaven, or of course just to scare the shit out of you with eternal torture in a pit of fire.
God admits he creates everything including evil, and every aspect and detail of this must be his invention, how could he not have?
God is supposed to know and be able to control everything so how does he get more love and prayers from devotees after thousands of people die from hunger and disasters?
You say you find these Calvin and Barne’s comments convincing enough to fall into line with manipulative Christian doctrine. Take a moment to reflect on how one-sided all religions are, from the beginning of time their particular gods all call for complete subservience on the basis of no evidence but just a huge amount of faith.
Hi Sklyjd,
I am not interested in entering into a long back and forth here, that’s been going on since the beginning of time and I’m not sure it would do us any good here. Overall, my understanding of this website was that challenging questions would be put forth with the intention of collecting a multitude of replies from either side. So, I don’t think I’ll be carrying on beyond this reply. The above was just my contribution to the question put forth.
In regards to Isaiah 45:7, it is my understanding that the correct translation of “evil” in this given context is more closely related to “calamity” or the like. Here’s an ok explanation of what I mean if you are interested.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html
Anyway, I wish every one of us all the best in discovering truth and God’s love. Many questions are painfully hard to answer, I know… I was abused many ways as a child until I was taken from my home. I still wrestle with questions and kept a distance from God for a while after wrestling with questions around His sovereignty.
But many years ago, God answered my cry for help when my life was in shambles and did miracles in my life that solidified my faith. So I do my best to trust it will all make sense in the end.
Through my struggles I considered that God gave us our minds and our understandings. He knew we would question, and he knew we would need faith to get through. Faith is ours for the asking, if we will repent.
My prayers are with us all.
1 Corinthians 13:9
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Proverbs 2:1-5
1My son, if you will receive my words
And treasure my commandments within you,
2Make your ear attentive to wisdom,
Incline your heart to understanding;
3For if you cry for discernment,
Lift your voice for understanding;
4If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5Then you will discern the fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Take care.
Dan
HELL
My conclusion – no reply necessary, just my thoughts and observations, reading others opinions, while struggling and seeking my way through this. One of the worst times of my life for sure because I already believed in God and thought eternity in Hell was the final word at the time. Literally in tears of frustration at times. At the end I believe in annihilationism… after all, how could God remain merciful and Love otherwise. So, I don’t force him into a mold that doesn’t fit who he is.
Hell
A few thoughts on Hell. The reason I am sharing this is because I don’t want you to be alienated from your only true source of life and hope – God. I put you in a “Christian” school and it seems some of the ideas they have been sharing may not be true after all – Traditionalism – which is the common belief of perpetual torment for the unsaved. Which I find absolutely irreconcilable with the nature of God.
I know that this doctrine weighs heavy on most people trying to reason with Christianity. It is probably the heaviest of all subjects to contemplate as a human being. At least please consider the following though, please Bailey. Below you will find a summary of my thoughts on the the subject, many of my points can be supported with scripture. However, this pastors take on the subject is much more thorough:
http://media.whchurch.org/2009/2009-01-11_Boyd_Tormented-in-the-Flames.wmv
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/tormented-by-the-flames
Please understand that many of the early church did not take the liberties of expanding on the bible to draw conclusions regarding hell, and when they did, it often painted the picture that those who did not choos life, would not be allowed to exist any longer, which is in essence “death”.
Before I even begin to suggest anything, understand that I believe that God’s truth must not be tampered with. We however, are responsible to seek God to discern and understand what the Truth actually is. I know what it says in Revelation, not all of it, but, that we are not to add anything to it. So, what I am sharing is from the perspective of one merely trying to understand what God is saying about the subject of Hell – that is all I am sharing, considering that the book of Revelation is a conclusion that is consistent to every book that came before it within the Bible.
Usually when I start thinking of this subject, I’m sucked in headlong, embracing much misery and negative emotions aroused, willing to accept whatever is true, but much afraid, not so much for myslef but much for the lost, and honestly for myself too beause I love many people who are not Christians. After much agony and many tears, I always come out the other side of this painful pursuit of truth with a stronger foundation to deny the traditional view of unending conditional torment (commonly referred to as UCT).
Smoke rising forever and ever. (Revelation)
could mean the finality of the decision, no chance to reverse the destruction represented by the smoke rising – like a puff of smoke from the destruction rising forever – the memory of the justification of a form of capital punishment of sorts. After all, it’s simple for God to say “infinite loop for that algorithm of smoke rising forever and done”. The smoke rising may not be evidence of an unending timeline of perpetual torture, since that’s not at all in line with a God who embodies the truest sense of Love, Mercy, and Justice? Right? I mean, how could that possibly be truth? How…?
No rest day or night
Jesus spoke of our current time as day-when work could be done, and night coming as a time when no work could be done. This perspective combined with the commonly understood “rest”, defined by the righteous – obedient/abiding believer entering Gods rest(peace) from their work, could be a perspective worth considering. This type of explanation could be in line with the type of reference/imagery presented all throughout Revelation, you know, not super literal. These are just thoughtful personal musings of course(which I do a lot of in the privacy of my own home).
Put it altogether and possibly (Revelation 14:11) means that those who worship the beast(center their lives on the idols he casts as described in 1 John 2:16) – never rest in God and never will, not in this age(day) or the age to come(night). But, their time of suffering may be limited? While the judgement of their rebellion is not.
Another possible explanation, although a stretch more unorthodox and in my research so far unprecedented, is to consider a conclusion from the potential of God’s power and boundaries from an “eternal perspective”. And again, this is just one possible outcome of a God of love who is limitless:
If God created for us a timeline – especially for our earth experience, which takes place within “His” definition of eternity, is it not entirely possible for Him to allow for a judged person, who refuses Christ, to suffer their 2nd death sentence according to their deeds (like a convict in jail serving a time) – and then freeze them and their conciousness forever and ever without actually reducing them to ashes? There will be levels of punishment after all which could easily equate to any duration (ainon). And this would satisfy both arguments of conditionalism and traditionalism. Note: while I am not at all trying to construct an arguement for pluralism, rather, just a musing of the possibilities that may let God escape the judgement of being unmerciful as we attempt to extend his mercy to an informed/educated “lost”. Jesus always used examples that were built around concepts we could understand.
Another thought I read about and expanded on: Considering the crucifixion – Jesus experienced darkness and feelings of being forsaken by His Father in during his day of excruciating physical punishment being nailed to the cross, and three or so days in complete darkness in the grave for the sins he would blot out on our behalf. This was defined as justification for “all” sins, “every” sin, ever. Don’t get me wrong I am eternally grateful and I shudder at what I’m about to suggest, and this is not at all meant to undermine the price Jesus paid for us. But, let’s be reasonable, this is clearly quite a light punishment for “all sins” (3-4 days of punishment) compared to the traditionalists conclusion of eternal(billions times billions times infinity)/perpetual punishment assigned to each and every deceived man/woman paying for their own sins – just the sins of one man or woman? Not only that, I imagine being nailed to a cross would be childs play compared to having every nerve screaming while being consumed by incomprehensible heat – whether physically, emotionally, or both.
Whatever the outcome, the conclusion, will apparently be an eternal punishment. Whatever our conclusion is, however, it cannot escape Gods character – He is Love after all… He did create our opportunity to experience his mercy by giving us no option but to start life as sinner. The quality that actually makes us want to share who He is, is his mercy – take that away by believing in traditionalism and I have a hard time even getting out of bed. If we believe something about God/Love that makes us estranged from Him, even creating feelings of justified hatred toward Him, is it not reasonable to consider we may have been misled or deceived?
Also worth noting when it comes to conditionalism, is that while we may not yet have immortality, perhaps satan and his counterparts already did, which is why they are the only ones directly spoken of who have no rest day or night – if to be taken in a literal sense (burning up – tormented day and night in the lake of fire forever and ever). But I have a nagging suspicion that Love would not delight in the perpetual torture of any of his created beings, even the one who became Satan – one who God probably once held as dear as a son in his heart? Can you imagine? I mean, give me any parent out there who would ever pleasure in a loved one, even a regretfully rebellious loved one – being sentenced to such unending horrific misery. I know in our flesh, we can can think pretty mercilessly when consumed by anger, but, once we have a chance to reflect, doen’s compassion and mercy rule our thoughts if we give them to God on behalf of our children? Is this not the justice of the God of love?… And does he not always have his faculties eternally present? Does his compassion ever have to catch up with his anger? Could eternal torture without an opportunity to show mercy be a possible outcome of justice for our God of love?… If it is, I think we need to rethink every aspect of what we believe about God’s love in scripture to be able to strongly uphold this as truth!
Are we still here! Perhaps we’ve been so deceived and distracted by these scriptures and interpretations, and many others, that we’ve missed opportunity to reach the lost!(2 Timothy 2:22-24)… Satan has his schemes…
I do not at this time have much to offer on the subject of universalism. Except that in the book of Romans (Romans 10:9) it says that whoever confesses the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart, they will be saved. Connect that scripture to “every knee will bow and every tounge confess” (Romans 14:11)? Just a muse that clearly lacks deep study to qualify as a possibility… To me, this is why universal acceptance of traditional understanding of scripture can be so destructive. Majorities have the ability to establish truth based on conclusions which may not be accurate. From what I’ve heard, pre – Augustine era, significant leaders of the early church taught a Conditionalist pov.
Again, I am not promoting heresy or blasphemy, but simply, thoughtfully reflecting on the scriptures/thoughts within my frame of reference, and gut, after sincere prayer and desire to unearth truth and know/trust God more.
Whatever the case is, was, and will be, one thing is for certain in my mind – Love will be glorified and God will still be good and true to His character of Goodness. Surely it will prove to measure beyond the goodness of what we’ve understood at the deepest levels of our intimacy with Him as believers and followers. I don’t believe the hood will come off of our maker on that great and dreadful day to reveal, God, was all along, not Love as we understand it, but the ever more sinister big brother of Satan, awaiting the day he could pridefully display his superior power by inflicting far more pain and anguish than Satan could ever dream of – summarized by traditional Traditionalism.
On another note: if traditionalism were true, knowing the majority of people are going to suffer unending, unimaginable torture since most choose the easy path of destruction – how could it ever be right to be a Christian holding this view and deliberately seek to conceive a child, considering the odds and what your child will most likely endure. Unthinkable… But, I choose to trust God is Love, and with that – at worst the doctrine of Conditionalism or Annihilationism – at hopeful best, some form of Universalism – but not ever torturous, hatefully cruel Traditionalism, as much as this seems to be the case at first, even second glance. Sorry, it just doesn’t stack up for me in light of the established character of the God of the bible and who he calls us to be(we are never better than Him). That being said, if traditionalism doesn’t stack up for God, if that is not what he is actually going to do – I’m sure he’s not happy when trusted Christian leaders run off at the mouth claiming things to be true that misrepresent him and haphazardly deceive those trying to turn to Him. I can’t think of a more trust shattering, bondage of fear inducing, and alienating doctrine as the unending horrific torture of ourselves, and our lost friends and family members. How can a person seeking God’s mercy, who has questions about what they’ve heard about hell resolve the disconnect of mercy and love – any other God seems reasonable at that point. And so they run…
Btw: sounds like Satan will be a corpse one day:
All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
Supporting Add Ons
John 11:25
Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying.
If we are going to draw conclusions from assumptions, it seems quite fitting in this context that those who do not believe will not live after dying – irregardless of the quality of that life.
Btw: I wrote that to my son who was walking away from the faith because of the “cruelty” of “God”. Life sucks sometimes, I am really looking forward to a better place!
Ultimately, I think that if we are willing to believe in conditionalism, we are one of two breeds, 1 too afraid to approach God to discover and believe something else, or 2 we are content to live in sin, so God being unfair justifies our estrangement.
I could come up with other reasons I suppose, but I kind of think from experience, we fall into 2 camps when we walk away.
I agree with you. If god really exists and is a creator of everything, why is there a lot of suffering and pain in the world?. I was watching the protests taking placing in Palestine and Israel after US president declared Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel and you can’t believe what is taking place in the assumed”holy land” in the world where jesus was born and moreover, this is the time when the so called Christians are waiting for the birth of their saviour. Really? I test and I do not believe god exists.
Christians celebrate Trumps words while being wilfully blind to the reality of the human cost, however ignorance to reality does not surprise me.
For many centuries gods were the answer for everything that happened because there was no other explanation for anything. It is easy to see why another god was created by credulous goat herders and dwellers in that small part of the world.
Of course, by the time modern science began to identify the reality of life the evolved emotional desire for having faith in gods and superstitions over thousands of years had become ingrained as part of the human personality.
As we are all with different personalities, people who have the necessity to question why something occurs in this modern era understand that these questions have real answers supported by evidence, unlike the ancient people and the religious masses today who only believe there is one unsupported answer for everything.
Hello sklyjd, I love your comments. You have rightly said it. I have the same thoughts too
God dont punish
We are punished for sins done in previous lives
God help us by punishing us
Punishing destroy our sins
And we become pure again
As a criminal gets free and pure
After punishment period
Punishment is. A process to make us. Pure
Those who dont believe in god
Say there where is god
Those who believe in god
Say where is not god
They can see god in whole creation
Every living bieng weather
Human,animal,birds,insects,tiny worms
Are diffrent form of god
Everything is god
Nothing exist which is not part of god
Unfaithfull want god to show magic to believe him
But god want there child to love them selflesly
Without any demand
as a mother love his child
but mother. Love dont. Demand something
Unconditional love
Not because god has. Powers
Everything. Happens. In nature by will of god
But still it feel nothing done by god
Whole creation is. Managed properly from infinite time
This proves. Existence of god
Challenging god existence can be very harmfull for a soul
Think just if u wrong then what
So believe in god
To end. Suffering
Remove desire
Remove. Attachment
Everything belong s to god
He has the right to take back
Everything u have today
U will loose. It one day
Because it belongs to god not u
Your body
Your. Mother. Father. Son wife wealth health
We suffer. Because.
Which belongs to god.
We think as our
Attachment and. Desire
And. I want
Are. The root. Cause of suffering
Me. And. Mine.
Are. Main reason of suffering
But that only cover emotional suffering. If someone hits you in the shin with a mallet, you’re going to suffer no matter how detached you think you are.
@Amit: I understand the concept of non-attachment, and there is a lot of wisdom in it. The problem for me is that the advice only covers emotional suffering.
If someone hits you in the shin with a mallet, you’re going to suffer, no matter how detached from desire you may be.
Likewise, if a child is born with a terrible, pain -inducing disease, that child is probably not going to gain solace from philosophical reasoning.
It seems to me that removing desire doesn’t adequately speak to physical suffering.
Also, isn’t desire a good thing too? For instance, the desire for food is what keeps us alive, and sexual desire is what brings new life.
Even the wish to eliminate desire and attachment in order to escape suffering is a desire in and of itself, is it not?
I’m not trying to devalue your point, but it seems to me that desire and attachment are inescapably a part of human existence and does not guarantee relief from physical suffering.
The bible you do not read will not help you. The God you do not obey will not help you.
I’ve been reading the Bible and praying to God for over 30 years. Can you tell me how that solves the above problems?
500Q
Hello, there. Listen, it sounds like you have been doing these things longer than I have been living ( I’m 20, soon to be 21 years old). I would like you to ponder what I am about to tell you, because it has the potential to put you more at peace. Picture this: you are a two year old child running rampant in the pantry. There are Dishes and food everywhere. Would you know how to clean it up properly? That is exactly what we in this world are like concerning evil and sin. We made a mess that we cannot clean up. However, God can, and he is. So really, things may be bad now, but hold on, because it’s not going to be this way forever.
I take it that you are frustrated. I get it. Believe me, I do. God knows that I myself have felt like this too, yes, even in recent days. I struggle with low self esteem, ADHD, and Autism. What do I do about it? I have determined for myself that I must keep pushing on, and I am sure things will get better. God himself encourages for our perseverance. We Christians are promised forgiveness and a second chance, not an easy life without hardship. So is my advice to you. I hope that this may help you to understand.
Thanks Alaina.
500Q
I will have to disagree. I disagree, because I know how God is, and he doesn’t just stand by and watch. Imagine lying in the ICU with a very serious condition, and being told by the doctor that had you not gone to the hospital, you would only have had 24 hours left to live. Yet, you feel no fear of anything, because you were put in a deep sense of peace from something amazing that happened to you earlier that night. It was God himself who came to you, all alone and very afraid to die, and he audibly spoke to you, saying, ” My dear child, I am always by your side”. Guess what? Believe it or not, this actually happened to me. This was 4 years ago, when I was 16 years old. Lying in the hospital, I wasn’t afraid of anything because I could actually feel his presence with me. Yet, you dare tell me God does nothing about our suffering? That is total Hogwash, because I have experienced God’s care firsthand. Yes, I am a Christian, I believe in his goodness. God is the ultimate father figure, don’t you know. You can hate me or think I’m crazy all you want, but I know I have no shame for being a Christian. Honestly, I believe that actually, we all stay in this world until our life’s mission is accomplished. That is when we die. Until we die, we are all needed somehow.
Yes, i believe you but God doesnt do this to everybody. He has his favorites. Certain are so favorite that God manifests Himself visibily to them to save their life even if they have never heard Him. To others He doesnt show up even when they are been tortured and they are not at the age of accountability like children. Still nobody can explain that.
20,000 kids do not get a mission to accomplish but die from hunger and disease every single day. Obviously they were not needed like you believe you were and it is abhorrently unfair and very misleading of people like yourself who actually had a modern hospital and qualified doctors to rely on. God exists for you, only within your own mind.
No one has the answer/ there are consequences for everything. From 1st recorded family was dysfunction.
There is spiritually. We are here & IF we value life we must live it good.
Are there bad actors; ‘always,’ some horribly….. That doesn’t mean I should turn bad. It means I should turn it to natural consequence & always go on the best I can get by. There Is some good in life. I live toward that daily. The rest can not matter. Shame on the world for Not making child abuse a first priority.
If children were allowed to live a happy life, we would have less monsters.
I like you article but please do not deceive yourself and others by calling yourself a Christian. You are not. You are an atheist or your God is more closer to Allah than the God of Christianity.
God does not exist
You are very right. There is nothing like god.
I lost my Son after years after many years of pain. I’m angry and don’t understand why. They say God knows our pain because His Son suffered and died. I say that’s not even close. Three days compared to 15 years. Other people say, “it’s part of God’s plan”. I say what’s the plan? How could the death of my Son (and daughters of many others) be part of a plan? I grew up a Catholic basically through indoctrination and right now I’m on the fence.
Really sorry to hear about your son, John.
I think the hardest thing to accept as a parent is that there are no guarantees. We hope things turn out for the best, and we do our best to reach that goal, but sometimes nature just has other plans.
Take care,
500Q
John, I am very sorry. My condolences. People who claim it’s all part of some divine plan that we just can’t comprehend don’t realize how callous and dismissive that comment is, not to mention insane. By their “logic,” nobody should ever complain about anything that happens: rape, murder, war, torture, illness, disease, kidnapping, slavery, genocide, etc….After all, if they are allowed to happen, aren’t they all part of some “plan” ? I say nope.
After all the horrors of our human reality I’ve seen and I’ve read about, I’ve reached an age when I humbly believe in creation, but with a twist. I think that there is enough evidence that the creator or the creators don’t care about us at individual level and don’t interfere in personal problems.
It seems that “they” care about humanity as a whole – “they” are strictly interested in our evolution. When “they” decide that some parameters of our evolution are reached, then the world, our reality, gets wiped out, thus a new beginning (we may call it mass extinction – Earth supposedly had 5 of them and the 6th is now under way).
I firmly believe that Earth is just a huge lab where genetic experiments are conducted. Just look at evolution of species. Evolution of humans is amazing ! It’s mind blowing ! Some might say there are just the laws of nature at work (thus nature becomes god), but I suppose it’s just “they” manipulating genes for some purpose we can’t perceive right now. We, humans, do genetic experiments, so it’s easily to accept that “they” are better than us at that. In fact, “they” are better than us in everything. Their superiority is undeniable.
While we shed tears for children who die of hunger, “they” don’t really care – it’s just a small percent and the global population keeps going. But I dare to say that “they” won’t let us start a nuclear war, for example – it would destroy all their work and their plans.
Remember, emotion is useless in nature and in cosmos! Reality is brutal and conditions for earthlike life in space are almost impossible to find. Another indirect proof that this whole planet is just a huge experiment.
So, after years of anger against orthodox god and saints and angels, I’ve finally came to the conclusion that nobody cares out there and each individual is on its own in a savage world and in a dark cosmos. If you wanna kill kids in a school, you could do it, nobody would stop you. If you wanna burn your neighbour’s car and house, you could do it. If you wanna kill random people on the street with your AK, you could do it. If you wanna drive your car in a GTA style into the crowd, you could do it. The only thing that keeps most of the individuals not doing those kind of deeds is the fear of punishment by the people and the state. That’s it. Simple as that. It’s an ecuation between freedom and punishment. Most of us choose freedom, but some people reach a point in their life where even freedom doesn’t represent much. Those are people with nothing to lose. Those people are capable of anything. And nobody will stop them. No matter how much we pray.
Love doesn’t keep animals in line, fear does. Control comes through fear. Invent an enemy and you promise to save them and people will follow you without blinking. Politics and religions do that very good. Fear of hell, fear of eternal punishment made things easier in the past for the leaders of this dark world. But those stupid people didn’t realize that hell is already here ! This planet is already hell ! So I am already punished by being hungry, thirsty, cold, etc. What could be worse than those ? And afterlife might be just positive thinking (as Hawking said), another tool for control – let the leaders live in luxury and you live in poverty and don’t complain because in afterlife it’s the real existence and abundance ! It seems a good lie. At least, for most people.
After so many years in this hell called planet Earth, I’ve reached a simple conclusion: try not to harm the individual next to you and the journey in hell could get more pleasant. Respect their freedom and they should respect your freedom. But when someone tries to steal your freedom and to harm you, then hit him with full force !
But of course we would learn more after we die. Until then, all is indirect evidence and personal beliefs. Live long and prosper !
PS: I’m opened to changes in the future. Science should change our ideas in the next decades. Gods and religions would go extinct as technology advances. Just my 2 cents.
You forgot about the adversary Satan the Fallen Angel who hates God and Jesus Children. You forgot about Sin . which happened when our Free Will rebelled against God Jesus came to free men from their sins so that’s this won’t happen. That’s if they accept his forgiveness and their hearts are forever changed and they have been become a new creature, able to withstand The Temptations so without Jesus we all would have to be destroyed again as in the flood. God loves us so much that he gave his only son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish from the spiritual death but have eternal life with him as it was supposed to have been in
Dear Daphne,
You wrote,
November 16, 2018, at 10:50 AM
“You forgot about the adversary Satan the Fallen Angel who hates God and Jesus Children. You forgot about Sin . which happened when our Free Will rebelled against God Jesus came to free men from their sins so that’s this won’t happen. That’s if they accept his forgiveness and their hearts are forever changed and they have become a new creature, able to withstand The Temptations so without Jesus we all would have to be destroyed again as in the flood. God loves us so much that he gave his only son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish from the spiritual death but have eternal life with him as it was supposed to have been in.”
“Judge not lest you be judged in equal measure.”
I’m not a fan of the Bible but maybe you are?
The Bible is a creation by writers and thinkers who were literate. Nearly all of Jesus’ followers at the time He lived were illiterate!
The ‘One’ we call God has certain attributes according to the Christians and the Hebrews before them. Here is a short but not comprehensive list of some of God’s attributes and actions as understood by those who believe in Him:
• He is a Triune called the Trinity, “Let us make man in Our image…”, although not all believers in the Almighty believe in the Trinity.
• He is believed to be uncreated.
• He is believed to be the Creator of all that exists and greater than all that He created.
• He is believed to have Sovereignty over everything – omnipotent.
• He is believed to know everything (Past, Present & Future) or Timeless – omniscient.
• He is believed to be everywhere and in everything – omnipresent.
• He is believed to be wholly Good; His Goodness is boundless – omnibenevolent.
• He is believed to be Infinite and beyond Space and Time.
• Those who believe in the Trinity understand that all three Persons have always existed.
• He is described as ineffable which means that all the words I’ve used are inadequate.
• He is believed to have participated with some writers who wrote about their experience of Him.
• The Torah and the NT are believed to be inspired by Him.
• The Ten Commandments are believed to have been handed to Moses by God in person!
If you think about His attributes and actions as I’ve listed them above then there are many things that seem inexplicable. People from many parts of the world had a view of the Almighty, not just the Hebrews who were constantly reminded to have “No other Gods before me.” This suggests a concession that the Hebrews could retain a belief in other lesser Gods! Please don’t mock them for they were said to be His “chosen people.”
As an uncreated Being, it was not necessary for Him to communicate with His Bible book writers with words. I have experienced the wonder of persons who light up the place with their goodness and felt a sense of well-being in their presence due to their complete lack of malice towards other people. I’ve sensed this even before they spoke. Do you know anyone like this? If so, perhaps you can see that the written words of God-inspired persons are created words from created creatures using created languages such as Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. They wrote to understand and not to be understood. It is we who read the translations that make the mistakes!
Nobody from the NT thought to write down the words that Jesus spoke at the time He spoke them – we have only reported works from writers who wrote later, some very much later. Scholars accept that Mark wrote the first Gospel and that Matthew and Luke wrote later, copying his work to a varying degree. Nobody has claimed that Jesus kept a Journal of what He said to the people and nobody thought to describe His physical attributes, like his height, weight, build, the colour of His skin, His eyes and His hair so that people would have some recognition of Him and not confuse Him with a different great orator. It would have prevented images of Him as a blue-eyed blonde man, slender of figure and white of skin as depicted by the painters who would become famous for such works several centuries later!
You have made accusations about things you regard as important and that were neglected:
Satan the Fallen Angel – the all-knowing God created Satan and all the heavenly hosts. How was He unable to know that Satan would rebel?
Sin – which happened when our Free Will rebelled against God. Is our Free Will an entity within us? If so, who put it there? According to the Genesis account, God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden of Eden. If our mortality was brought about by Adam and Eve eating from the fruit of the Tree and God knew this would happen because He knows everything, then why put it there? Also, since He knows everything, why did He allow the serpent (the most cunning of all creatures) to enter the Garden to tempt Eve? And why is the knowledge of Good and Evil such a destructive force on us since we now use it to behave more ethically to one another? Also, if He is truly omnipresent, why did God call out to Adam in Genesis 3:9, “Where are you?”
Jesus came to free men from their sins – so why are we not sinless? Is Satan more powerful than Jesus? Orthodox Christians would argue that Jesus came to rescue all of humanity, not just those who believe in Him because it was death (our mortality) that was destroyed. Please remind yourself of the following passages from the Bible:
1 John 4, 14 we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
John 12:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
John 12:47 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
“If anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.”
I have only quoted from the Bible as a concession to you but I would ask you to consider if God caused The Great Flood to rid the earth of evil, how did He fail to do so? From where did sin return?
As I have explained, I do not think that the Bible is helpful as it’s a created work of human creatures using created languages. Furthermore, the original writings of the scriptures have been lost forever due in part to the destructive forces of nations that conquered Hebrews and Christians destroying many of the manuscripts that may have been preserved by manual reproduction by Scribes charged with this task.
May you and all readers live peacefully with one another?
Dinos Constantinou
Thanks Dinos for these very good questions. They are the same questions I always ask the believers in god.
I grew up as the baby girl of 9 children. My oldest brother got hit by a car when he was 6 years old. He was operated on for 12 hours but still died. My dad became a drunk and a molester and my mom became an addict. I grew up not believing in a God. I know there is no god. I was molested by my brother while my sister was molested by my father. Where was this God people claim exist? There isn’t one. I know because my mother never told me she loved me and the police was always at our house. I am 53 and I have 3 kids by a ex-husband whom raped me and molested my daughter. I have tried to kill him several times. I am different from my parents that way. I became an addict but I am a recovering one and I love my 3 children and 5 grandchildren and I would not hesitate to kill anyone who hurt them. I poisened my ex husband and even hired a hit man to kill him. He lived and he is pure evil. I feel no remorse and will not if I am able to accomplish his death before I die. I had already divorced him when he molested my daughter. I don’t pray that he will die just as I didn’t pray that the man who held a gun to my head and pulled the trigger twice and also held me prisoner for over a year. No one knew but that did change me. I overdosed him on his own medication because I could not leave any other way. I feel no remorse for his death. Why would I? He took me away from my children and grandchildren for a whole year and kept me drugged up. I finally got smart and started putting extra medication in the food I was forced to cook. I was raped repeatedly by him. He was pure evil. There is no god because I would not been born into the family I was and I would not have met such evil men if there was a god. I am on medication and will be for the rest of this life. I know that souls are reincarnated and I will go through the same in another life. There will be no end to my suffering and I don’t expect it to be. There is some force in the universe that allows this to happen but it isn’t a good god. I have nightmares and hardly sleep at all. If my brother had not died maybe I would have had a better life but I will never know for sure. I will continue to work to kill my ex husband because it doesn’t matter what I do. I will just die myself one day and come back as someone else and the whole thing will be repeated. You see I am one of the few people that remember past lives. Idk why I have this ability but I do and I can assure you without a doubt that there is no God.