While this subject borders on the macabre, I believe that taking an unflinching look at natural extremes can provide us with important insights into how God, or nature, works.
Such unique traits are fascinating because, on the one hand, we see the miracle of creation, but on the other hand, we see that something has gone horribly, horribly wrong. Something unexpected has happened, and nature seems unprepared to handle it. And this leads us to ask some interesting questions about the existence of the individual soul, and questions about who, or what, is behind the formation of these bodies.
Dicephalic Parapagus Twins
Let’s start with the inspirational twins Abby and Brittany Helsen. While in the womb, God or nature knitted them together in an amazing patchwork of organs and bones. The way these twins are joined, it smacks of design, almost as if someone carefully crafted their two bodies so that they could continue to operate in this way.
But on the other hand, 75% of conjoined twins fail to survive. So if there is such a craftsman, he’s certainly not very good at designing viable conjoined twins.
From a spiritual standpoint, we look at Abby and Brittany and see two separate spirits, as they clearly both have unique thoughts and personalities. So, as strange as it is to say this, if the spirit exists, it seems to reside inside one’s head. But if this is true… can two spirits share one brain?
Craniofacial Duplication (Diprosopus)
- Figure 1
According to a 2002 article in the medical journal Radiology, “The rarest type of conjoined twins… is diprosopus, where a child is born with two faces on one head.”
Diprosopus (which kinda sounds like a dinosaur) may not actually be a conjoined twin at all, but a duplication of the face caused by an excess of the (I kid you not) Sonic Hedgehog protein.
In the case of Figure 1, it was found that some of the brain’s frontal lobes were also duplicated. But having these extra brain bits didn’t seem to translate to having an extra soul or dual personalities.
Figure 2
Indian-born baby Lali (Figure 2) has an even more pronounced second face. She too likely has the same (if not more) duplication of brain matter. But how much brain matter can be duplicated before we’re asking “Is this one person with two faces, or two people sharing one brain?” or “Did God insert one soul or two?”
My guess is that any extra brain matter would become integrated into one singular sense of self. This is hinted at by the fact that baby Lali blinks all four of her eyes simultaneously.
Figure 3
More disturbing is when there is a lack of the Sonic Hedgehog protein, which can cause facial features to lack separation, sometimes resulting in a cyclops (Figure 3).
If there is a designer, why his he allowing such things to happen? Is it necessary to have a certain number of two-headed, two-faced, cyclops babies? Are evil forces at play? Or does nature just sometimes make mistakes?
Synecephalus
Figure 4
Synecephalus (Figure 4) is a very rare type of conjoined twin where the twins share a head and face, but have four ears and two bodies. In other words, there’s little question that these are twins and not one person with duplicate features.
Again, how would God handle the soul in this case? Would he insert one soul knowing that the two minds would become one? Or does he insert two souls, which might result in a two senses of self? Or does he not even bother, knowing that this project is doomed to fail? (And if it is doomed, why didn’t he end it sooner? Or not create it at all?)
What I find particularly interesting about Figure 4 is how both rib cages come together. These cells continued to assemble themselves, assuming they were in the correct location. While nature may not have noticed that something had gone wrong, an intelligent designer should have, and should’ve terminated the project much earlier.
Craniopagus
Between these extremes are varying levels of craniopagus, where two twins are conjoined at the head. This type of conjoined twin is especially noteworthy because it can result in a partially shared brain.
Take the case of Canadian twins Tatiana and Krista Hogan (Figure 5). These adorable twins, born in 2006, have been the subject of several news stories and documentaries. As they learn to speak, they’re teaching us more about what it means to share part of a brain.
Figure 5
It’s said that Tatiana and Krista share a thalamus, which connects their brain stems, and it appears this allows them to share some brain signals. They have shown many signs of being able to pick up on the other’s sensory input, and they often do things in unison. But each also has her own independent personality.
If these two girls share overlapping brains, do they also share a percentage of a soul? If they each shared half a brain, would they have 1 soul, 1.5 souls or two?
Parasitic Twins
Lastly, and perhaps most disturbing, are parasitic twins.
Unlike conjoined twins, a parasitic twin ceases development during gestation and becomes a partially developed vestigial formation upon the body of the other twin.
Parasitic twins come in random shapes and sizes, and some even become completely entombed inside their twin. The cells of these parasitic twins find a way to survive, even where they were never intended.
One type of parasitic twin is craniopagus parasiticus, where a parasitic head of a twin is attached to the head of another twin.
In craniopagus parasiticus, God or nature doesn’t even bother to give a body to the poor parasitic head, so it has no chance of surviving on its own. Even if the head is conscious, doctors must remove it in order to give the more developed twin any chance at a normal life.
From a spiritual perspective, one wonders if God gives parasitic heads a soul, and why he would allow such a cruel thing to happen to these children and their parents. Why would God force us to kill an infant, so that its twin may survive?
From a naturalist perspective, I can see how a developing parasitical twin might think its needs are already being met, and fail to produce a second body.
The other 75%
But most of the above photos are of survivors. Few of us ever see pictures of the majority of conjoined twin that don’t survive.
Figure 6
Take, for example, the conjoined twins in Figure 6. In this case, the one twin died because its brother was growing directly out of his face, in the form of a garbled mess.
How could a good God knit together something like this in a mother’s womb (Psalm 139:13)? Can God even put a soul into a mangled mess without a head? Why allow it if God can’t possibly use it? Or are we just looking at a tragic mistake of unguided nature?
Who, or what, forms our bodies?
There’s no question that life is complex. I find it miraculous that a few cells can multiply and grow into such complex organisms, replete with close-knit bones, organs, muscles, nerves, etc. How does each cell know where to go and what to become? There seems to be some central command orchestrating the entire project. But where is this oversight when it comes to conjoined twins?
These bizarre mergers do not appear to be intentionally malicious. If Satan is behind them, why not just kill them instead of conjoining them? Why combine them in random ways? With random amounts of success and failure?
Nor do these mergers speak to the work of a benevolent God, who is creating something new and magnificent. If God forms them in the womb, why does He fail so badly (Jeremiah 1:5)?
Rather, these mergers appear undirected and unintentional, with each cell going about its own business, trying to integrate itself within the whole. When a cell runs up against something unexpected, like a twin, it latches on and says “Eh, close enough.”
What might we expect if God forms our bodies?
If we are being intelligently designed, we might expect the designer to look upon twins about to conjoin and say “No, no, no, that’s all wrong!” Or at least provide adequate programming so that “Cell A” knows never to merge with “Cell B.”
If God exists, it appears as if he not interfering with the natural world he created. But if God is still in charge of creating new souls and inserting them into babies, he must remain somewhat involved. How can he command the soul-creation process, yet not dictate that twins should always remain separate?
It’s difficult to imagine that God is currently up in Heaven bemoaning this situation to Jesus…
“What’s wrong, God?” asks Jesus. “Oh, nothing, I just had to insert some new souls into a freakish parasitic twin.” “Did you make it appear completely random?” “Yes, of course, we can’t have everyone down there thinking these mistakes are intentional. Still… it makes me so very sad because I love them so much.” “Well… you are an all-powerful God, can’t you just stop?” SMACK! God slaps Jesus to the ground. “See what you made me do!? Stop questioning my judgement! Why must everything I love force me to punish it so badly? My hands are tied, Jesus
. My ‘perfect’ creation has listened to the talking snake, leaving me no choice but to conjoin the occasional twin.” “Yes, I suppose,” says Jesus, “But must you also conjoin animals as well?” SMACK! “Yes!” says God, “It’s all part of my plan to save mankind! It’s all necessary.”
What might we expect if nature forms our bodies?
If only nature is in control, then…
- The cells are calling all the shots, for better or for worse.
- We might expect a high failure rate.
- We might expect oddities like conjoined twins, because nature was never programmed to forbid them.
- When cells do make mistakes, we might expect them to continue forging ahead, because they don’t understand that what they’re making is doomed to fail.
The naturalist in me sees conjoined twins as nature’s unfortunate experiments. She may fail 75% of the time, but 25% of the time she gets lucky, and actually makes something fit enough to survive.
This is similar to the evolutionary process, though these mistakes are on a genetic level. When mistakes turn out to be advantageous, the organism survives and replicates. If the mutation is a disadvantage, the organism is wiped from existence. It’s just a matter of probability — create enough random mutations, and eventually you stumble upon something that works.
What nature really has going in her favor is that she only keeps her winners. As the winners continue to interbreed, they all share in all their new-found strengths.
Conclusion
If we say the soul is evidenced by one’s sense of self, then how can two twins share a sense of self? Are they sharing a soul, or are they simply sharing part of an organ that is responsible for forming the sense of self?
As for how we are formed, I would assume that any benevolent OR malevolent creator would show signs of intent, not randomness and failure. If God intends to insert a soul into a creature he loves, he should take measures to ensure it doesn’t succumb to stupid mistakes, and he certainly shouldn’t continue building something that’s destined to fail.
But nature has no intentions, she reacts only to physical and chemical reactions, which sometimes results in randomness and failure. She doesn’t create our bodies because she cares for us, and she doesn’t take measures to make sure we won’t succumb to stupid mistakes. She plods along in ignorance, oblivious to her failures. What works, works, and what doesn’t, doesn’t.
While God may have made us perfect, what we observe today is nature making random mistakes and experimenting. We do not observe God creating new lifeforms from scratch, or showing other clear signs of intent. Conjoined twins appear to be the result of such natural and random mistakes, and not an intentional design choice.
500 Questions about God & Christianity 
Nice info for all believers in God ( Jewish, Christian, & Muslim)
Hi Hamdy Mousa,
Well… nice for Muslim believers, perhaps (as its goal is to prove divine inspiration of the Quran). Most Jews and Christians would just consider it wishful thinking.
But it does go to show how easy it is to take words from ANY religious text and, with the benefit of hindsight, give the text new prophetic meaning. The same fuzzy logic and mental gymnastic occurs with Biblical prophecy, and prophecies from other texts. But it’s just a clever mix of coincidence, hindsight, confirmation bias, and loose reinterpretations of words with ambigious meanings. We could do the same thing with many non-religious texts.
For example, “Wreck of the Titan” written in 1898 featured a fictional ocean liner “Titan,” which sinks in the North Atlantic after striking an iceberg. In 1912, the “Titanic” sunk in the North Atlantic after hitting an iceberg. It was just coincidence, but if this book were a religious text, no doubt people would be arguing that “The only reasonable conclusion is that this description was given to the authror from God!”
Thanks,
500Q
I’ve never heard of that book before, but honestly, the way you describe it, that seems like way too much of a coincidence. There’s something more unexplainable afoot there in my opinion. Just like how someone put in their yearbook from 1993 that the Cubs would win the World Series in 2016. The odds of guessing that in 1993 are uncountable. At some point the odds have to get so high that you have to say it’s way too unlikely. For instance, the odds that the world will end tomorrow.
I think the real point here is that even IF a book got a few prophecies right, it doesn’t mean it was from God or an Almighty power. It could just be an unexplained phenomenon. My friend is an empath and can tell me exactly how I’m feeling at that moment. It’s a real thing, but hasn’t been studied by science just yet.
Look up some of Michael Persinger’s studies for instance. Remote viewing and telepathy may be a real thing, some studies on quantum mechanics have shown particles seemingly knowing about the future. So being able to see into the future may not be so impossible.
The point is that there’s a lot we don’t know. You can’t point to God as the cause of the things we don’t know as a “god of the gaps”.
Hi Garbonzo!
Back to the Future also made the popular prediction that the Cubs would win in 2015, which failed. Fact is, there are trillions of predictions (intentional or otherwise) that are made every day. Most of the unlikely ones will fail, but it’s the unlikely ones that succeed that get our attention. We notice the hits but ignore the misses.
If you asked this same student to predict the next few winners of the World Series, it would quickly become apparent that he just got lucky. And really, with a limited number of baseball teams, the odds aren’t as improbable as they may seem. The Cubs were bound to win eventually.
But extremely improbable events happen every second. For example, the odds of getting a Royal Flush are 1 in 649,739, yet it happens every day.
Or if the odds of something happening to a human on a given day are 1 in a billion, it would STILL happen to 7 people, every day (and it probably seems impossible to them that such a thing should happen!).
Or a few billion years ago, the odds that a particular set of atoms inside a star would one day come together to form you, so that you could grow up to post your exact words on the above post, in response to this exact article, on this particular day, at that particular second, are so infinitesimally small as to be considered statistically impossible — and yet, here you are.
So impossible things happen all the time, but that doesn’t mean they are supernatural events (or that they need a “God of the gaps” to explain them).
500Q
There’s such a thing as being too skeptical, and keeping an open mind is also a part of being a rational and scientifically-minded person. An open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out. 😉
There’s a balance. And that means not being too skeptical or too gullible.
There are tons of radical things on the brink of scientific research that would blow our minds and challenge our traditional worldview. In light of this, it’s not a jump to say it may be possible.
In the case of the Cubs prophecy, the person doesn’t claim to have a permanent ability to tell the future. They had a very vivid dream of the Cubs winning in 2016. It was most likely a one-off thing. Of course it can be a coincidence. It can be a coincidence that OJ’s blood was at the crime scene too though, right? Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but when I look at the totality of the evidence, I realize it may not be such an extraordinary claim. I’m not 100% confident in any of this, just about as confident that OJ did it.
Look up the Global Consciousness Project from Princeton for instance.
There are tons of credible anecdotes like this as well. You look at one after the other after the other of seemingly sane people with these experiences of telling the future and you have to question how can all of this be coincidence. Just looking at the totality of the evidence.
Also I don’t pretend to know the exact odds of predicting the World Series champion from 23 years prior, but I’m sure it’s higher than getting a Royal Flush or higher than 1 in a billion.
How many people are predicting sports events like this? I’m willing to wager the number is less than you might think. I know I certainly never have, and neither has anyone I’ve ever known. You have to be quite the eccentric, or confident in your prediction to put it in your yearbook.
Back to the Future didn’t predict anything, it was a fictional work. Every miss lends credibility to the hits, anyway. He did something no one else has done before.
The Cubs were obviously bound to win eventually. That’s why a predicton that the Cubs will eventually win would not be much of a prediction. The odds would be near 100%.
As for the incredible odds of being here, we can’t say for sure this is by chance, it’s not a fact. I’m not saying God did it, but what if the universe just always was? One theory is that our universe continues to expand and contract like a heart muscle. It has always been doing this and always will be. It’s fair to say that no matter what’s right about how we came to be, it’s beyond our comprehension right now, so you can’t really use that as proof just yet. We don’t even know what sparks life yet.
I think that seemingly near improbable events happening is a tell-tale sign that there is something more to it than what we conventionally know about that event and that it deserve more scientific study.
Some ancient people believed that weather events was caused by a diety. Other people might have said it was COMPLETELY RANDOM and we couldn’t predict these things or understand why they happen. Until someone began looking into it and now we realize why and how these events happen and can sometimes even “predict the future” and know when a weather event will happen.
Back then, can you imagine how ridiculed someone would be by the wise men of the era if they believed weather could be predicted?
Hey 500Q
You clearly don’t understand either causality or correlation, Just consider your penultimate paragraph again please 🙂
Sincerely
A born again bible believing sinner
By the way 500Q
I can’t work out whether you believe the LORD and his Word and are for him, or are you against him ? I emplore you to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior. His Word is true, you can be sure of it 🙂
A born again bible believing sinner
I’m a muslim ,but your reasonable argument is good for mental health.
The are many cheikhs ,in order to prove that islam is the truth , tries to relate everything to everything in the Quran.
Now i’m not saying that the words in the Quran isn’t true,But to understand the Quran you need to understand the actual arabic and the ancient arabic.
In the Ancient Arabic Language,because i m an arab too, the word could have several meanings ,and this results many translations of the Quran text.
Finally,based in the meanings of each word in the ancient arab, the text explain perfectly the steps of creation.( you need to search that if you ‘re not believing)
But there’s also who say that these was knowing by arabs because the woman can fail in pregnancy and drop out the child during these steps so the arabs knew the steps by time.
LOL I can’t beleive you idiots seriously beleive in religion, it is so ridiculous that it doesn’t even make sense it is seriously hilarious seing people like you, i guess that you also pray away cancer, if so pls go to a deserted island to die AKA where people like yopu belong.
. If you seriously think that there is a god im sorry that im not sorry but i want you as far away from me as possible.
THERE IS NO TRUE RELIGION ATHEISM IS THE TRUTH
I personally don’t think God plays an active role in the conception or development of the fetus. He lays out the ground work and everything else is left up to two individuals. I feel that Conjoined Twins occur through means of contamination, poor hygiene, internal damage through some traumatic event to the reproductive organs at some point in the parent(s) life, etc, etc. Humans have been having more and more health problems, cancer is on the rise, more and more people are catching STD’s, our diets become more and more processed foods, the gov has released chemical agents into the air and water of the populace, food is going through tons of scientific altercations without any long term testing to see if it’s safe, pharmaceuticals are flying off the shelf faster than we can blink, and the list goes on. People get exposed to things daily that can ruin their reproductive organs and that’s not speculation it’s a fact! This isn’t God’s, fault it’s a man made issue.
This is reaching pretty far. First, only now that we have discovered these things for ourselves can we try to twist them to fit our narratives, and second, what it says isn’t very accurate to reality. If an omniscient being wanted to describe something, he wouldn’t be so bad at it that you can barely succeed at making it sound kind of like the truth. Third, even if it were accurate, it’s not good evidence. People can guess things correctly without knowledge.
Life is absolutely random. There is no other rational way to explain it. When a baby is born “normal” and healthy, people usually thank God. But when a baby is born a cyclops, or an arcadiac twin is conceived that has no heart but is a blob leeching blood from the other twin in the mother’s womb, who thanks God for that? Why does one believer receive joy and blessings while another believer gets only misery and disappointment? The answer is that famous non-answer: “it is what it is.” I believe there is a creator who set the world in motion. Since then we have pretty much been on our own. Most creatures are born and develop the way their species are designed to. There are things that increase and decrease chances of survival and health, but it’s mostly just being born at a better time in healthier circumstances than someone else. Does God love us more today in America than He did in 14th century England when millions died unthinkable deaths due to bubonic plague? And were 16th century indigenous people cursed when European settlers swooped down on North America and the South Pacific and annihilated them with disease? That just doesn’t make sense. We are told terrible things happen to innocent people because it’s God’s plan, but we cannot explain the bad because we are not capable of understanding God’s reasoning. Okay, but why not accept that things just happen? To me, it’s simpler to ACCEPT and not worry about why this prayer was or was not answered. God made you what you are. You are born into whatever situation you are born into and you do the best you can. That’s it. If you’re lucky, you get the chance to do good things for yourself and, hopefully, the planet. Tragedies are not “tests” created by God to see how the rest of us respond. That is a cruel and ridiculous notion. However, as humans, we were created with the capacity to care and help our fellow man through unfortunate events. We also have the intelligence to adjust random circumstances so they are less painful and sometimes beneficial. When a plane crashes killing everyone on board, there is no opportunity to help those dead people. But we can and do rally to help grieving survivors. Engineers study the incident and use this knowledge to improve aircrafts so such accidents do not recur. These are not mystical situations. Accidents, murders and illnesses happen, and no amount of faith and prayer will stop them. Some of us are simply fortunate to not be victims. This means we won the human lottery. We were born with four working limbs, normal organs, mental health, and we receive adequate nutrition that that allows us to grow an direct our energies toward the rest of humanity, and not spend all our time surviving our own life conditions, like chronic pain, birth defects, abusive parents, poverty, civil wars, genocide or natural disasters. It’s the luck of the humanity draw.
Jak, that’s pretty much what the bible teaches. If we’re fortunate enough to be born with a body and mind that halfway works, the onus is on us to seek God and his will and hopefully make a name that Jah will care to remember later. Hopefully we’re alive long enough for him to get a good idea of what kind of person we are before we turn back into dust. That’s why it’s important to seek his friendship and act like we give a care…that includes treating others justly etc. He’s actively looking for such persons.
I believe life happens to everyone because we are human and everyone interacts and reacts to each other.
Our true and living God does not violate the law of Nature. Who knows what The Mother may or may not have done intentionally(in ignorance) or unintentionally,(error) that may have interferred in the process of growth. Good Example: If one drinks alcohol or do s instead of milk or healthy foods are a prime reason for birth defects and disaster. So before anyone try to blame or question God when things go wrong, we have to look at the whole entire picture. There should be lots of questions for Man also.
Hi Georgia Jackson,
What is walking on water if not a violation of the laws of nature?
Or perhaps we should update the Bible to read: “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. Until nature interfered… and, well, then your hands were tied, and you let me die with my Siamese twin in my mother’s belly.”
If God is just going to let nature take it’s course, then there’s little difference between God not doing anything, and nature just being nature.
500Q
Yes, He could prevent all of those from happening.
But, He didn’t. Why?
Because when Satan was testing Job to see if he served God primarily for selfish reasons, Satan made argument in Job 1:6-12, and 2;1-7 trying to state to God that Job would defy Him. This goes on in Ephesians 2:2 showing why it is happening, and in Revelations 12:9 it explains more. 1st John helps state it the best for understanding, also James 4:4. THIS is what has been causing these troubles with health; and others. It will be taken care of as you’ll see when you read Revelation 12:7-12. You’ll understand WHO is causing this and why. Yet it will be over.
God didn’t tell you that fool and he didn’t make this mess lying demon
There is only one thing I found more disturbing than the pictures themselves and that is the author’s Irreverent and blasphemous remarks about God and his total lack of understanding of a sinful and fallen world and the consequences God warned us would happen.
Hi there,
I don’t really apologize for the irreverence or blasphemy; I’m right here if God wants to smite me. But ironically, he doesn’t, and that’s part of the problem. Here I am, this beautifully irreverent and blasphemous bastard, and God does nothing. Meanwhile, he does take time out to contort unborn twins.
It’s fine to hypothesize that “evil exists because we live in a sinful and fallen world,” and I’m no stranger to this teaching. But another possibility is that our world is the result of natural events, and what we perceive as “evil” are just random misfortunes.
I think you would agree that God, if he exists, is no dummy. If evil MUST exist, a moral God is going to use it toward good ends. If this is true, we might to expect to see God behaving in moral ways, even when it comes to natural punishments (see #66). We should see judgements being poured out upon evil men, and NEVER upon innocent children, like those pictured above.
The “fallen world” explanation only gets us so far. Sure, we can take every bad thing and say, “It’s somehow necessary, because we sinned!” But is it? Is it all REALLY necessary? Must animals REALLY eat one another because man sinned? If animals did not have custom-made diseases, would this somehow prevent us from choosing God? Must some people die simply because they eat a peanut? While a trusted priest molests a young boy and nothing happens. Must some children develop with deadly mutations, lest they all be born normally, and we somehow reject God because of it? Surely we would find God MORE moral for delivering healthy children to us, not less.
There appears to be very little correlation between the natural consequences of what God labels “sin,” and random acts of nature. For example, I can blaspheme the Holy Spirit all day long, and nothing happens, even though there is nothing more offensive to God. And yet, a child of Christian parents says nothing, does nothing, and is sentenced to a horrible death. Why? If God desires for these children to grow up and make a decision about him — if it is truly God that forms them in the womb — then he is just shooting his own plan in the foot. This makes little sense.
Either God is behaving illogically (and seemingly randomly), or these ARE random events that have nothing to do with the plans of a moral creator.
Live long and prosper!
500Q
That’s sort of an ultra liberal (in the political sense) mindset you have there. That God should force himself on everyone just like some just looooove big government and want a govt program for everything, even one to teach you how you wipe your bum and where no one is really to blame for their own mistakes or illnesses.
Makes me wonder what your politics are. I don’t even vote but i’m guessing you fall in line with the new age liberals that populate both coasts.
Let’s say a couple have a kid who was a sweet kid but around the age of 12 he started hanging with the wrong crowd, got into drugs and no longer listened to his parents. As he gets a bit older he starts being a danger to the safety of his siblings and even the parents wonder if they’ll wake up with a 12ga. pointed at their skull. So they get firm with him and he bolts from the house, runs away with his druggie girlfriend and in a couple years show up at their door with their mentally damaged, malnourished child wanting to move back in with the family. They haven’t cleaned up their life so the father tells them ‘no way, hit the road!’.
He’s not going to let them bring their nasty influence and affect his remaining kids.
Now YOU would find fault with all that. You’d blame the problems the child has on grand dad.
You believe he should accept his progeny and donate his resources despite how anyone lives – it’s their business anyway. Who is the dad to push his values on his kids?!
If you need help extrapolating the point, Jehovah is the father in the illustration…
What justifies the father to reproduce? This is a world where terrible things happen every day. No one can make sure 100% that his kid will have a happy life. So, when he chooses to bring a child into this world, the parent is taking that risk for his kid’s life. For what purpose? With what justification? What is human life accomplishing? Or all life for that matter? Animals eating each other, parasites, diseases, natural disasters, etc. To what end? So, my point is that indeed the instigator of life is always to blame for the negatives of life. Because by starting life knowing the risk involved, he is accepting that risk, but he is not the one that will pay. His kids will pay.
“God is the Savior of all Mankind, especially those who believe” All means All. In their appointed time All will come to the full knowledge of the Savior. There is a special time in God’s calendar reserved for those who can look around and know that something greater than themselves created this beautiful planet, and have taken the time to find out who that Creator is. Who can create a blade of grass, much less a seed that will grow into a mighty tree that might live over a thousand years. All one has to do is look up at the night sky to know, if they bother to consider, that an great intelligent and loving Creator made this Universe. A Universe that is working all things together for the good of God’s highest creation, mankind. “For every knee will bow and gladly and boldly proclaim that Jesus th Christ is Lord of All. All means all!
Good logic. Thank you.
I know exactly how Crhistians answer this one: “Obviously there is unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents which has allowed Satan to get a foothold and cause such a travesty, allowed by God as a warning to us all.” Anything but open their eyes to the truth.
In all genetic issues the most bizarre is the endless freedom what we get from God. However we have the opportunity too blow up mankind with the atomic bombs which is more freedom but we are still here now.
The genetic issues regards us to nihilism to give up faith in God and this is what the evil want that there is no purpose of the life so we can do anything. If we know all these answers then the life become boring and we loose our free will to choose god or evil.
Because God is awesome and has a great sense of humor for the rest of the world to smile and enjoy… Or Sciences right and Evolution does occur through an act of biochemical mutations and sometimes the genetic codes get mixed up.
I think that we have to see the border frame that God is our father and the life is a school.
The atheists think that life is only a school where we get a grade and who can’t go to this school or can have only a very bad result in there is unjust and God will not like them.
But off course God likes all of his sons even if they wasn’t able to go to the school or fail in it or wasn’t able to full fill all the requirements because for example children’s death or aging and illness or genetic problems and organ transplant etc.
For the short purposes and the higher quality of life and love are necessary to bad things allowed to can happen and this is the endless freedom against slavery. Everybody have to find his own free purpose in life. Of course the reincarnation believers solve the unjust in his theories but miss the loving God purpose.
The border frame blindness regularly mentioned in the bible.
Matthew 7:3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
For the atheists the speck of sawdust is our sins and the plank is the ethical problems with the intelligent design the purposeless of life and the omitted appearance of the afterlife etc. They think why do God look the speck of sawdust in our eye and pay no attention to the plank in his own eye.
I think that in the afterlife there is a democracy so the devil is have to be tolerated and have choice and enough freedom to prove that God is in the wrong way and this is the reason that we have to suffer now in the life in the life situation.
The answer is simple. Either God is not as personal and loving as people imagine Him to be. Or He doesn’t exist. But seeing as though it is mathematically impossible for the Universe, resulting in us, to come about by chance, there must be a creator. However, die to the horrors that occur to life here, He must be leaving us to our own devices. The Christian claims these horrors are the result of sin infecting the world. The naturalist claims these horrors occur because the Universe is random and mindless. I fail to see how one would recognize a difference between the two…
At the risk of repeating myself, God is somewhat impersonal when it comes to the wicked. He distances himself from their problems to a great extent but even still, “He makes it rain upon the good and the wicked”.
but as evidenced in the bible itself:
Deut 32
3 For I will declare the name of Jehovah.+
Tell about the greatness of our God!+
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,+
For all his ways are justice.+
A God of faithfulness+ who is never unjust;+
Righteous and upright is he.+
5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly.+
THEY ARE NOT HIS CHILDREN, THE DEFECT IS THEIR OWN.+
They are a crooked and twisted generation!+
Yea, it’s a bit of “it’s not my problem” – from God himself.
But also as it says, “His eyes are roving about through the earth to find those whose heart is upright with him” So it’s up to us to make ourselves stand out through prayer and behaving properly -treating others right, i.e., “the Golden Rule”. You don’t need a church to do that either.
The thing to keep in mind is that the big picture issues are being dealt with. Wickedness will be put to an end, forever. Some thousands of years to deal with the issue seems like forever in our eyes but it’s not like it’s on a ‘geologic time scale’.
What evidence do you have that the Bible is true?
“evidence”? Nowadays everyone is a scientist.
“Faith is the assured expectation of… realities….NOT beheld”. I guess it’s like dark energy/matter – the evidence is indirect and yet many scientists ‘believe’ it’s real. Others don’t.
“Faith is not a possession of all persons”
“Lord, “give us more faith” “
I would hope everyone strive to think scientifically. It makes your life better and easier.
Dark matter/energy is not something scientists came up with out of thin air. It’s not fiction. They derived the theory from evidence.
If you see a glass of spilled milk on the kitchen floor, you’d rather assume your child did it, rather than Santa Claus, or some intruder, right? Both are theories, but one is more likely than the other.
So we take all available evidence to us and form a conclusion. We can’t be 100% sure of anything, so everything we “believe” in is based on probabilities formed by our informed knowledge.
If your profusely says they didn’t spill the milk, and if you see the front door is open, then in the face of new evidence we change our probabilities. Your child could just be a good actor playing a prank, still, though. That’s why our beliefs are always based on what we know now.
Most scientists believe dark matter/energy is real because of the mathematical evidence behind the theory. There’s always the possibility of something else explaining it, which currently seems unlikely, but always possible. We deduce this by thinking logically.
If I asked the same question to scientists, “What evidence do you have for dark matter/energy?” They wouldn’t hesitate on giving an explanation (even if a simple one) for why they believe this theory fits into the current math, and the peer-reviewed evidence behind it. I’m sure you can look it up right now.
Even then, they’d only give it a certainty of maybe 98%. They most definitely do not have blind faith that it is true. They are always open to new information that disproves it. What certainty do you give to the Bible being true? If it’s a very high number, then the evidence must match that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If I were to say to you that I can fly, would you believe me? Why or why not?
I agree with you regarding dark energy but there are competing theories such as black holes lurking at the edge of galaxies containing the hidden mass. If that were the case then gravitational lensing wouldn’t be consistent but rather…lumpy…i’m guessing.
As far as supplying scientific evidence for the bible, it’d be a challenge to quantify the evidence into acceptable mathematical probabilities. You’d have to think in terms of what are the chances, for one example, that a very large collection of books would have been written over 1,500 years and heavily influenced by a series of different cultures and yet not be tainted by the prevailing mythologies of the day – like the earth being supported by a god Atlas. Or belief in a flat earth. The fact it not only didn’t encourage the worship of idols that was so common then but strictly forbid it. Or emperor worship practiced by Rome. The same goes with astrology or magic or child sacrifice or divination – all of that was heavily practiced by their neighbors at one time or another.
What are the chances an ancient culture with no knowledge of bacteria would practice quarantining the sick, not touching dead bodies and repeatedly stress cleanliness in a litany of laws?
What books chronically the official record of a people didn’t white wash history? Most brag about and inflate their exploits and hardly a mention of their failings or losses in battle. Meanwhile the bible starkly details the shortcomings of Israelite leaders from Noah to Moses to David and even the nation as a whole.
Look at how their neighbors, the Egyptian kings would habitually remove their predecessors names from all mention; literally chop their names off stones and destroy their obelisks. Hence, little is known of some of the most powerful pharoahs.
To me all of that together strongly suggests divine involvement over any influence a group of men could ever dream of accomplishing. But i think the calculations one has to do with that evidence is best done in one’s own heart and mind. Good luck putting it under a microscope or calculator.
Yes there are more things in earth and heaven than you can imagine with your eyes. Can somebody make an equivalent simple MS Excel formula rule for this sentence and when he have it I will prove the evidence of this. Where is the formula? The mathematics where is the only evidence for unseen things can do only countings like this 1: there, 2: are, 3: more, 4: things … n: eyes. So no matter quality and quantity when you think about science.
Sorry but can someone prove that I was the latest Anonymous says:
October 25, 2017 at 1:07 PM
It’s only me who knows it there is no evidence.
But if nature did this couldn’t, shouldn’t, God intervene and prevent such catastrophic mistakes before they come out of the womb??? I was raised catholic, which means I had religious education shoved down my throat, metaphorically speaking, and I’ve had doubts and confusion, but always wanted to believe that God was there to fix everything. My own hearing loss I believed was a educational experience made by God. .. But after seeing these kids, this is not a lesson easily understood. All I see is suffering and despite the abilities to function these poor individuals face everyday when they reach maturity, how can a two headed girl honestly find love? She’ll always wonder did he marry the oddity to be famous, which is grotesque BTW, but honest sadly….. I don’t see God’s hand in this is. I keep seeing the twin with the other growing out of his mouth. No. God wouldn’t do that. So it’s nature. Which bears my next question. Where is God when this is happening? Is it punishment we are unaware of from our ancestors? Or maybe God doesn’t control what we think he does. That answer shakes my faith to the core! I’m feeling such….. Honestly doubt…. Real doubt in this stuff that God would do this. Why don’t it stop? Is God real? I hate that kind of doubt!!!;
If you can pick out my comments up above, i answer this. Basically, when Adam & Eve took satan’s offer of independence from God then all their kids were thereby also affected…and afflicted. Keep the blame where it belongs. Jesus Christ is God’s lifeline he’s tossed us to give individuals hope.
The ‘macro’ situation will also be corrected in due time.
Have you heard about the devil?! I think that the devil grabbed you with this technological delusion. We can not describe how everything will be ok finally at the end this is what we have to believe. Why we have not got sense for this? Poetry can get closer only like why will all the flowers beauty fade and easy to forgive others when somebody thinks that he will once die with the others too. We can not get the notion of time either but this is not hurts us.
What is the difference between the delusions of love or the fights for dominance from these rotten and morbid thoughts? The devil is very powerful against weak faith included the death and illness and undesigned disorders or the unpleasant political bureaucracy etc. In life to be Christian is can be overwhelming when we have nothing only a hope so the devil and the death can work on us slowly but efficiently.
Include here the periods of history we can be sure only that every time the good people have to suffer struggle and trust in for God’s words and hope at the end in his good will.
Not so intelligent design.
The potato need extreme hot oil temperature to be the best. God is the author of the potato and oil. God is the author of the bible and the religions and the science so these together are related and first reed these books of God before you meet with him. The free will in the systems causes that small or big changes are impossible later.
Now it all makes sense!! The key to it all is POTATOES…..and OIL
Well the yeast in the flour is an agent too or the grape and the yeasting must etc. but there is no tragedy. However in my opinion the human ethological dimensions are the yeasting agent for the highest alternative christian reality which is the flour.
God can stop the suffering if he wanted to. If you think he can’t because of a puny angel / demon taunting God like he’s Marty McFly, then God is not omnipotent and is quite immature.
Imagine if someone told you to abandon your child and let your child suffer because your child only loves you because of the things you do for him. First of all, even as an imperfect human, much less an omniscient being, you know your child loves you because you are their parent and children are biologically wired to love their parents,second of all, you wouldn’t let them suffer just to test thim. That’s cruel. And third of all, you would tell this a-hole to get the hell away from, you and your children. You’re not going to listen to a lunatic.
Imagine what the cops would say if you were charged for child neglect after you abandoned your children in the streets to fend for themselves, and your excuse is that you weren’t sure if they loved you so you were testing them.
It’s an absolutely laughable and sad excuse for human parents and it’s so much worse for a God who can supposedly do anything and knows everything.
The only reason why you would disagree is that you are blind to logic because of your deep roots in religion. Think objectively. Question your beliefs.
It’s fallacious reasoning to equate mankind as children who can’t make their own decisions. Adults constantly make decisions that directly affect their children and they can’t make bad ones then blame God for it. In your illustration they can.
Let’s say your daughter gets married and has kids. They’re doing OK but let Dirty Uncle Lucius move in. He comes with some bad habits and influences. Next thing you know, the dad loses his job for failing a drug test and starts selling drugs for $$. His wife (your daughter) is a full blown junkie, the kids are taken advantage of and their apartment is trashed. You try and help but soon realize you’re throwing your money into a black hole. Your daughter refuses to leave her husband and there’s no way you’re moving them all in your place. They get kicked out and now have to move into a mobile home in the country with no running water, no electricity.
BTW, Lucius is long gone by now.
Cops and CPS eventually show up and the dad tells them “it’s not our fault, her dad put us in this situation when he quit giving us money”.
So it’s YOUR FAULT DAD. You’ve got lots of money and can snap your fingers and they’re in a brand new home. Why are you being such a heartless bastard dad?
This is your illustration in human terms. Doesn’t really hold up, does it?
There’s only so much you can do or have control over. You can’t forever shield your daughter from her own bad decisions.
But you do wind up raising one of the kids yourself.
Similarly, Adam & Eve had it all but broke the house rules they were given as they obeyed a usurper. This decision in turn affected their offspring – which turned into billions. Just because the math is staggering doesn’t mean it’s not the same exact situation.
God hasn’t cut off mankind entirely. He has reached out to the offspring and those who exercise faith get certain promises for the future and blessings with peace of mind in the mean time.
In order for your analogy to work, these birth defects would had to have been chosen by free will. Do you believe these children chose this?
Again, what father would not rid his children of birth defects such as this if he had the power to do so?
There’s no if, ands, or buts here. Either God is omnipotent and has has the power to do this, or he doesn’t.
Jesus supposedly healed the sick when he was on Earth, but he and his pops refuse to do so now. Why did those sick people get special treatment?
You’re going to throw your hands up and say, “Meh, they got lucky,”?
This is literally analogous to Jesus seeing two sick people, he heals one for the heck of it I guess, and then lets the other person stay sick. Why in the world would Jesus ignore the other sick person? Answer me this.
*God is letting these children suffer when he knows he can do something to stop it.*
What’s more, it’s moral cases such as this that have caused millions of people to say, “If a god exists, it doesn’t care about us, and/or is immoral.” Why would God want that? To test us? What the hell kind of a test is that? “I’m going to put this moral conundrum here to test you so that you will obey me even when all logic says I don’t exist/I’m immoral.” If it’s a test, God only wants immoral or illogical people to follow him. Why?
“In order for your analogy to work, these birth defects would had to have been chosen by free will.”
Your insistent on thinking if there is a God, then we are automatically his children.
For your analogy to work, mankind couldn’t be truly sentient beings who had genuine free will for they are never responsible for their own choices. God should bail them out every time they get in trouble. Even if they spit in his face and tell him to f-off he should still change their nappy and heal their injuries.
What kind of weird, nutty world would that be?
Like i quoted before, God himself referred to rebellious Israelites: “They are not my children, the defect is their own”. He certainly does distance himself from those who don’t want him – even those in his then chosen nation.
Everlasting life will be the reward of those who make the determined choice to obey Jehovah according to their own free will despite hardships incurred.
As for Jesus healing the sick. They all got sick and died eventually so does it really matter in the big picture that someone in another village missed out? He was demonstrating his authority and ability that would be applied earth-wide during his Kingdom reign at a much later date.
Suffering now is still limited to our short lifespan. For that we can be grateful. So even though mankind has been suffering for 1000’s of years, individually our suffering is capped. Those in God’s memory will be resurrected with whole bodies and have the prospect of unending life on a paradise earth.
After healing someone and referring to his ability to even raise the dead, Jesus said,
John 5: 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice+ 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
“Your insistent on thinking if there is a God, then we are automatically his children.”
Do you think we humans love our children more than God loves the things he’s created? Why would we not be his children? He created us in his image. Do you think he doesn’t care for us? Well, you’re right. We aren’t God’s children. Otherwise he wouldn’t allow innocent babies to suffer.
“Even if they spit in his face and tell him to f-off he should still change their nappy and heal their injuries.”
What did the babies in these pictures do to deserve this treatment by God? Did they spit in God’s face and tell him to f-off? They are gosh darn babies for crying out loud.
You know that all of your moral instincts God supposedly put in you tell you that seeing an atrocity happen and doing nothing to stop it when you could have, makes you just as guilty as the person who was directly responsible.
“They all got sick and died eventually so does it really matter in the big picture that someone in another village missed out?”
Not just the other village, everyone suffering today and ever since Jesus demonstrated his ability. Imagine how immoral someone has to be to dangle something like that in front of people and then say, “Nuh-uh-uh. You only get this when I say so.”
You have to look at this objectively. Again, if I were talking about *any* other person, you’d be appalled at the person’s attitude. Imagine going to Yemen to feed starving kids. You have a truckload of food, and you give it to only a few kids “to demonstrate your ability”. All of the other kids are at your feet begging for food. *Any moral person would give the kids all of the food you have for them now.* Instead, you wait for no gosh darn reason. Minutes go by. Hours go by. Days go by. You’re not feeding the kids. How would you look at that person? Would that person be moral to you?
How would you rationalize defending that person?
“Eh, those kids will all die in the end anyway, what does it even matter in the big picture. Their suffering is capped.”
Would you accept that as an excuse from this person?!?
*The concept of a god is not any different.*
Temporaries is not an excuse and you know it. Suffering is bad, no matter how temporary. It doesn’t excuse me from allowing suffering because it is temporary!
You want us to believe in a loving God, when such a being defies all sensibilities.
You do not arrive at the conclusion of a loving God first and then try and make the world fit into that worldview. You look at the world *first* and then decide if a loving God makes sense from the world we experience with our own senses.
A loving God is simply logically incompatible with a world that has innocent people suffering. You can either say God isn’t loving, or God isn’t omnipotent and doesn’t have the capacity to change things.
Let’s do a thought experiment.
So you, Garbonzo, take LSD every week for 10 years straight, then have sex with a woman who continues to heavily drink, smoke and take meth while pregnant – she then bears Mini Garbonzo who is severely developmentally disabled and has lobster claws for hands.
Garbonzo: “WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO US GOD?!!”
If there is a creator, it’s obviously his fault. I mean this is just an innocent baby, right?
That’s where your premise falls apart.
You can’t split hairs and say that’s too extreme an example. It would have to apply across the board. Innocent babies are innocent babies, period.
In your imagined world IF there is a God, he’s to blame for everything. Parents have zero responsibility.
But – they do.
Adam and Eve did too. They still bore near-perfect children. But compound the damage done over succeeding generations and you get what we have now.
You’re LSD analogy has to do with causation. What we want to focus on right now is why you won’t help that LSD baby when you have the power to do so. Whoever caused the suffering should certainly receive justice, but it won’t be them who will be at fault for your own transgression of not helping when it’s easy for you to do so.
Think back to the analogy of giving out food to kids in Yemen. Right now, we don’t care what caused these Yemeni kids to start starving. We care what you’re going to do about it right now. You are with these kids right now and you have food to give them. Will you help end their suffering or not? Not in a hundred years, not in a decade, not in a year, not in a day, not in 10 minutes; now.
The profession in the design is for our salvation and this not means all time pleasure and joy moreover we all die once and there are intermediate stages of death.
The answer as to why these and other physical and mental anomalies occur in Genesis 6. When the sons of God (B’nai ha Elohim) saw that the daughters of men were fair they took them as wives, and born to them were the Nephilim. Most people think the “sons of God’ were humans, when they were indeed a pack of fallen angels, who swore an oath together to fashion for themselves earth bodies, so they again left their proper estate, against God’s law. Not even satan would join them, but he was directing them for his purpose to destroy the pure Adamic blood, through mixing the angelic/human blood, of which there is no redemption. God had already pronounced satan’s judgement by telling him one day a child would be born, a decedent from Adam, that would defeat him and at the same time redeem all born from Adam. Thus if satan could taint human DNA with angelic DNA, the bloodline leading to the prophesied Messiah would be corrupted leaving humanity with no chance of salvation, and for satan to rule them on the earth forever, which is still satan’s desire today. God’s judgement on this pack of angels is described in many passages in the Bible, but very clearly in 2 Peter 2. They were chained by Michael and Gabriel and taken to the center burning core of the earth, where they reside today. Their giant offspring not only violated women, who bore them giant offspring, but they also violated every other creature on the earth, thus the appearance of giant beasts, the dinosaurs. Thank God for Noah, a man who loved God, and a descendant of Seth, who had kept his generations pure, for if he had not, these wicked giants would have eventually ruled the world because of their great size, their appetite for human blood, and being led by the devil himself. Thank God for the flood, that destroyed the Nephilim Giants, and the giant beasts that they begat on the earth who roamed about devouring mankind. When the firmament came down, the Fio2 dropped from perhaps 100% to the 0.21% we have now. The PEEP (the pressure the atmosphere exerts on us) was substantially reduced as well, thus limiting humans to an age of 120 years maximum on the earth ever since. One of Noah’s daughter in laws was pregnant by a giant when she entered the arc, thus the outbreak of giants after the flood that made their way to Canaan. The conditions of the earth after the flood rendered them sickly and eventually sterile, and their size was reduced from 30-50 feet tall to 8-10 feet tall. Goliath and his brothers were the last of this hybrid race, and it should add to everyone’s understanding of why David had to slay Goliath. For this, God gave the Hebrews the land they occupied, from the river Tigris in Babylon to the Mediterranean Sea and this covenant is still in effect today, as we see the descendants of Abraham fighting over this land to this day.
Many theologians in error teach that the sons of God were the sons of Seth, who married the wicked daughters of Cain and bore the Nephilim. The Bible never identifies the lineage of Seth as “sons of God”, or Can’s daughters “daughters of men. Scripture provides a detailed lineage of Cain, and there is no mention of any of Seth’s sons marrying into Cain’s family. The Sethite theory does not explain why the union of Seth’s good seed and Cain’s bad daughters led to giants being born an the entire earth becoming corrupt. If this were the case, anytime a Christian married an unbeliever and had a child, it would be a giant. Nor does it explain the passage in Jude is referring to when it says that certain angels went after “strange flesh” for the purpose of fornication, and subsequently imprisoned in chains in the earth’s molten core. This glaring oversight is one of the most grievous errors ever taught, and passed along as doctrine for thousands of years.
Just recently it has been discovered that humans and neanderthals intermarried and had offspring according to human DNA markers. “Neanderthal” is the scientific code word for the Nephilim so that the Bible narrative will not be noticed by most. Nephilim DNA has also been discovered in virtually all of the animals living on the earth today.
This may be a lot to digest for most who have been spuriously taught the gross error of Sethite theology. I highly recommend the book “Judgement of the Nephilim” by Ryan Petterson. It is an exhaustive genealogy study of Adam and his generations, and satan’s ultimate plan of destruction for God’s beautiful and amazing creation. You will fall more deeply in love with Jesus than you have ever been when the truth, that has been hid from us for thousands of years, is revealed unto you.
I knew one guy who told me the ‘fallen angels screwed lizards and made dinosaurs’ theory. I always thought he was just a kook. But someone actually teaches that nuttery in a book! lol
So much wrong in your post – wouldn’t know where to begin.
Interesting theories though…esp that Noah’s daughter was pregnant by one of the demons.
Thanks for the entertainment
It was Noah’s daughter in law that was carrying the nephilim. Not his daughter. Pay attention, details are important. Glad you were entertained rosskstar. But it would more benefit you to study the scriptures with an open mind.
I’ve studied the scriptures and no where does it state that bit about Noah’s daughter in law.
You’re just making broad assumptions. Although you come across sounding a bit like a Mormon, so maybe old Joe plugged that gossip in his book with all the other garbage.
Anonymous, evidently you haven’t studied them enough. The Book of Enoch is the genealogy of all the fallen angels, and their offspring the nephilim. Riddle me this, where did the giant Goliath and his brothers who occupied Canaan come from? Since this was after the flood of Noah, they didn’t just hatch. You know the Scriptures, then you know Hebrew spies were sent into Canaan and reported back to the leaders that they were as grasshoppers to the giants that occupied Canaan. The last of the Anakim descendants were on the western coast of the Promised Land, forced to the coast of the Mediterranean Sea after Joshua’s conquest. During the generations of the Judges, Israel allowed the last few giants to remain in the land , which is the territory of the Philistines. But King David, whom God called “a man after my own heat” was a faithful warrior in the tradition of Joshua and Moses and would see the final giants were vanquished. Starting with Goliath. Goliath is the most popular giant of all time, owing no doubt to the fact that he is the only giant in the Bible who is actually quoted. His standing among the Philistine armies reflected the relationship the nephilim in Canaan had with the partially mingled or fully human counterparts they lived among. The giants were fully in charge. The satanic spirit within him permeated his nation that was steeped in idolatry, which was the worship of the giant ancestors who ruled the world before the flood. In 1 Samuel 16 the Lord rejected Saul as King and had the prophet Samuel anoint David. Immediately following this divine coronation, the Philistines marshaled for battle against the Israelites and Goliath dictated the terms of war to all involved, namely one on one combat for the rulership of both nations. The timing of this legendary duel was no coinky-dink. In the preceding chapter the prophet Samuel anointed the teenage David to be king while the rebellious Saul still sat on the throne. The Holy Spirit of God departed Saul and indwelled David. This was a spiritual coronation and the enemies of God and the Messiah marshaled their human servants to war against Israel before this new king could assume power. Little did they know, David would be at the center of the battle. David, carrying the DNA of the bloodline that would lead to Messiah, and Goliath, descendant of the sons of God of Genesis 6 faced off to one on one combat. This was was yet another stunning fulfillment of Genesis 3:15. With their enemy at it’s peak, the Seed of the Woman conquered the seed of the Devil. Led by the nephilim warrior Goliath, they were headed straight for the location of the antediluvian Eden. The iron tip of Goliath’s spear weighed roughly 30 pounds and it’s shaft was the size of an ancient loo used to make fabric. Goliath was a superhuman soldier who rendered the army of Israel paralyzed with fear. Like Moses and Joshua before him, David was a devoted soldier of the Lord. His own remarks entering the battle underscores the theme of God;s purpose in the war against the giants. 1 Samuel 1723, 26-28 gives the account. In David’s mind, Goliath’s size and weaponry was irrelevant. What mattered to David was this giant, who was a demon worshipping pagan railing against the very creator of the universe. The battle wasn’t even close. A giant stood no chance trying to fight the Lord God. David’s courage came from his understanding that God would be fighting the battle that day. The account of this is in 1 Samuel 17:32-37. But the battle was not over. King David pursued the Philistine armies to the point f pure exhaustion and Ishbibenob, one of Goliath’s brothers, seized the opportunity to try to assassinate the king of Israel. The head of his spear was three hundred shekels of brass, or 7.5 pounds recalling the description of Goliath;s weaponry. Like his brother, Ishbibenob used oversized weapons to match his superhuman strength. But Abishai, one of the mighty men in David’s army, swept in to save David’s life and killed this nephilim descendant. The text also properly identifies Ishbibenob as one of the the “sons of the giant”. The Bible confirms once again that the postdiluvian giants were not he direct offspring of angels, but were rather a genetically diluted form of their hybrid ancestors. They were the sons of Rephaim. The Septuagint describes these final nephilim as “descendants of the giants in Geth, the family of Rapha”, 2 Samuel 21:22.
Broad assumptions, hardly! I have just given you the Scriptures that confirm my reasoning, and I assure you that Joseph Smith was not even thought of during the time on earth I am referring to. Again I beseech you, study to show thyself approved.
The report from the unfaithful spies was described as a “bad” or “evil” or “malicious” report and was designed to discourage the Israelites from proceeding into the land. In other words, the bible itself is saying it can’t be trusted. They were EXAGGERATING.
Sure Goliath was ‘a giant’ compared to normal men. But don’t we have Andre’ THE GIANT and others approaching 8 feet tall. Google images: ANDRE THE GIANT BEER – I’m pretty sure if Andre was into chucking spears for a living he could have handled Goliath’s spear. Even if Goliath and his family were taller than that it doesn’t necessarily mean they were literally descended from actual demons like the Nephilim.
I’m fairly confident that Jehovah God was successful in wiping out all the Nephilim in the flood. Otherwise that was a big production for no benefit.
Those ‘apocryphal’ books like Enoch likewise can’t be trusted. Sure there might be a kernel of truth here and there. But i can’t lean on them like i can what i know to be actually inspired of God: the bible (66 books). Just like there are some Jewish oral traditions that shed light on various things and are quite interesting but i wouldn’t stake my life on them.
Ross, you cleverly omit the testimony of Joshua and Caleb who said the land could be taken back again. The spies from the other tribes were not EXAGGERATING, they were scared because the nephilim sons of Anak were there, Numbers 13: 37,38. They wanted no part of fighting them. They had no faith that God would actually be fighting the battle with them and through them, and the penalty of that was their death! 10 of the 12 died shortly after giving not a false or EXAGGERATED report, but a report that showed they had no faith in God. So they got to wander in the wilderness for 40 more years, except for Joshua and Caleb who believed God would help them overcome the sons of Anak, who were nephilim that inhabited the land of Canaan. During the 40 year wait, God anointed David as the king, over Saul, because of Saul’s lack of faith that the sons of Anak (a nephilim) could be defeated. Nephilim had demonic spirits living in their enormous bodies, but did not become demons until they were killed. The definition of a demon is a disembodied spirit. Without a body, they have little power, except to influence those who would rather believe the liar than believe God.
The overriding mission besides retaking the land of Canaan, which God had promised Israel as an eternal home (coinky-dink that they are there today), was to defeat the nephilim. God limited their years after the flood to 500, but to fulfill the prophecy that the son of a woman would destroy them, God needed a son of a woman to do it. This is why David was a man after God’s own heart. King David was determined to inhabit the Promised Land again. Caleb and Joshua who were 2 of the 12 spies fought this great battle alongside David and supernaturally defeated and killed all of the sons of Anak that lived in Canaan, and they were many, not just Goliath.
As to your contention that the flood did not accomplish it’s purpose, it most certainly did. It wiped out the dinosaurs that roamed the earth before the flood, thank God, and killed most of the nephilim. Imagine a world where giant beasts roamed accompanied by their giant nephilim commanders! It’s easy to imagine if you have ever studied Greek mythology because guess what, it wasn’t a myth, it was the reality of that time. These postdiluvian nephilims made sure to plant this knowledge in their worship of their ancestors in Canaan and beyond, and these pagan worship practices took hold especially east of Eden in Babylon. These pagan worship practices happen to this day every time the church doors open on Sunday and a modern calendar is observed. The Sabbath Day is Saturday. Even the Islamic descendants of Abraham still observe the true Sabbath. The Roman calendar was reformed by Julius Caesar in 45 BC. The Julian calendar was no longer dependent on the observation of the new moon but simply followed an algorithm of introducing a leap day every four years. This created a dissociation of the calendar month from the lunation. God’s calendar is given in Enoch, and thanks to Enoch, we can know to this day where we are in the history of man. I assure you that every word of the Books of Enoch are God breathed and inspired, Enoch walked with God for 365 years. An angel scribe wrote down everything God told Enoch. God told Enoch to take the books to his grandson Methuselah. God then took Enoch to Heaven in his mortal body. The day before Methuselah died, God told him to take the Books to Noah. The day Methuselah died it began to rain. Even if you believe the bullshit of the many false translators, and poopoo the Books of Enoch, if you really love God, why wouldn’t you want to at least read the writings of a man that walked with God for 365 years and every word spoken between them was written down by a Holy Angel scribe? Enoch is quoted all through the Old Testament and quoted many times in the New Testament as well, most notably by James, the brother of Jesus. They were Hebrews, the Books of Enoch were common knowledge to them and is still in their Scriptures. The entire Books of Enoch were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls which included most of the New Testament . They deserve at least a look see. Even by half-assed Bible believers!
Your belief in ‘disembodied spirits’ puts you in the camp of Christendom who accepts all kinds of false mythology the bible simply doesn’t teach. This discussion with you has gotten so far off the reservation regarding the original topic, not to mention reality itself, i’ll have to bow out.
Ross, the clear definition of a demon is a disembodied spirit. Jesus cast a legion of them out of a man, and they asked Him if they could enter a herd of swine, which he permitted. The swine drowned themselves, thus disembodying those spirits again. It’s the eternal part of a nephilim, their spirit, that will never die. I can see you are ill equipped and a bit blinded by your christian dogma to reason with me, as I have clearly demonstrated my points with precise Scriptural references. I have enjoyed our discussions and I wish you wouldn’t put your panty’s on quite so soon. Please read “Judgement of the Nephilim” by Ryan Pitterson. It will help clear up your blind spot. My brand of belief is called totalism, in that I believe in the literal meaning of every word of God. You my dear are a partialist. You believe part of what’s written, but have been so indoctrinated by bad translations of the Scriptures and perhaps some denominational teachings that you can’t quite see the big picture yet. But I can see that you are getting there. May the Lord bless and reveal it all unto you!
Your verbose writings are off topic but i’ll try and be brief.
You believe in an eternal soul. That’s a false belief. Ezek 18:4 “the soul that is sinning, it itself will die”
Eccl chapter 3 – “for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place.+ They all come from the dust,+ and they all are returning to the dust.+
Eccl 9:5,10 “the dead are conscious of nothing at all”
Your brand of christianity is derived from the corrupted form created by Constantine and others back in his day. They made an amalgam of pagan customs and beliefs with what was left of christianity that became known as ‘Christendom’. This was a satanic invention; a counterfeit to delude the world. Most of what purports to be ‘christian’ today teaches at least a goodly portion of these falsehoods; mainly hellfire, immortal soul, the trinity, clergy/laity division.
Regarding demons, they are fallen angels. Their human hybrid offspring (Nephilim) were not capable of dematerializing when the flood came, they simply died. The term “disembodied spirit” is misleading. Spirits are bodies – they are spirit bodies. There are no ghosts, only mischievous spirits that pretend to be dead people.
Your verbose writings are off topic but i’ll try and be brief.
You believe in an eternal soul. That’s a false belief. Ezek 18:4 “the soul that is sinning, it itself will die”
Eccl chapter 3 – “for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place.+ They all come from the dust,+ and they all are returning to the dust.+
Eccl 9:5,10 “the dead are conscious of nothing at all”
Your brand of christianity is derived from the corrupted form created by Constantine and others back in his day. They made an amalgam of pagan customs and beliefs with what was left of christianity that became known as ‘Christendom’. This was a satanic invention; a counterfeit to delude the world. Most of what purports to be ‘christian’ today teaches at least a goodly portion of these falsehoods; mainly hellfire, immortal soul, the trinity, clergy/laity division.
Regarding demons, they are fallen angels. Their human hybrid offspring (Nephilim) were not capable of dematerializing when the flood came, they simply died. The term “disembodied spirit” is misleading. Spirits are bodies – they are spirit bodies. There are no ghosts, only mischievous spirits that pretend to be dead people.
Ross I have certainly studied and considered the Scriptures you cite. I agree that mostly what is taught in christendom today is a mixture of pagan and counterfeit meant to delude the descendants of Adam from the truth. I do not believe any descendant of Adam will taste hellfire. Nor do I believe the trinity, clergy/laity division, Sunday sabbath, tithing, i.e. all of what Constantine brought to the catholic church in the form of pagan worship. But we must define pagan and that’s easy. Paganism is the worship of the Giants, Sirens, and Nephilim that lived and “ruled” the world before the flood. These are the creatures of mythology which were much more real than myth, and It also includes their change in the times and seasons and most everything else God created in it’s original form. This paganism continued after the flood, because the nephilim that inhabited Canaan worshipped their prediluvian ancestors. I do believe when a living soul dies it is dead and knows nothing until the eternal seed in it is resurrected. But since there is no redemption for the angelic and hybrid mix, the nephilim, their disembodied fallen angel spirit is trapped in the earth’s atmosphere. They are not permitted beyond this plane, unlike the other fallen angels that did not fashion for themselves earthly bodies and cohabitate with women, thus giving up their original nature and having to follow the physics and physiology of the earthly. This band of fallen angels that violated so grievously God’s law regarding them mating with humans, are now chained in the center of the earth. They will be freed from this prison during the coming tribulation on this earth to again wreak their particular brand of havoc, as was in the time of Noah. Matthew 24:37-39, Luke 17:26, et. Satan was not one of those fallen angels that sinned in this manner, but they act under his charge. Satan, being an angel, created eternal, will never die, and I actually have hope that the perfect blood of Jesus will redeem the fallen angels as well. It’s what He wishes, and it’s what He says, that ALL above, on, and under the earth with gladly bow their knee and joyfully confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord. So back to the nephilim spirits. I’m afraid that I have to believe the words of Jesus who cast the legion of them out of the man, and they asked to enter the swine. They are the only disembodied spirits, or demons on the earth today. They will be cast into eternal darkness when the earth is made new again. Angels, even the fallen, still have their angelic bodies. Most of the fallen angels didn’t trade their high estate for earthly bodies to cohabitate with women. They don’t need or desire to enter a body as a demon does, because they have bodies already. A demon will never have a part in any resurrection because there is no redemption for this hybrid mix, so there is no way for the eternal part of them to ever have a body again, unless they enter and use a human body somehow. I don’t claim to be an expert in demonology, I just know what the Bible says about demon spirits entering the bodies of men, especially during the tribulation to come. And since it is now, according to many learned Bible Scholars, the year 5990 since Adam’s creation, it will come suddenly, as did the flood. I think we perhaps agree on more things than we disagree on, and i have enjoyed our discussion Ross. I have received new light from these discussions. Come and let us reason together as lovers of our Holy Creator and Redeemer.
On a scale of 1 – 100% how sure are you that the great tribulation will be this year? You understand that “Bible scholars” have made this prediction literally every year and it has yet to come true, right? The informal definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. This time won’t be any different because there’s nothing different about this year compared to the rest.
We have fossil evidence of dinosaurs evolving from smaller reptiles. They are big reptiles. If fallen angels had so much power, why isn’t there beasts of other kinds? Cold-blooded reptiles were suited for the muggy, hot, atmosphere of Earth at the time, modern mammals wouldn’t have been able to stand it. Also, there’s no evidence humans were around hundreds of millions of years ago. Even the Bible says Adam lived just 6000 years ago, even though we know modern day humans were around since 10000+ years ago.
It’s also scientifically impossible to have a firmament around the Earth and have an atmosphere humans can live in. Look it up.
If you want to dispute the science, you can do that by getting the necessary qualifications and publishing your work for peer review. Until then, the science is sound on the matter.
Please don’t believe everything you read. That’s a nice story, but there’s no evidence behind it.
Where to start….the fossil evidence demonstrates there were giant animals of all forms and kind. The Science…HA!! Science my ass! You have no scientific background whatsoever if you don’t know the atmospheric conditions that existed on this earth before the firmament came down, and how different the earth is now since the flood of Noah. Study to show thyself approved, then try answering intelligently!
You need to stop blaming God for doing these birth defects. God didn’t do this, humans did. God would never do something like this it’s ridiculous To to even begin to think that the creator of all and everything good & right would say, “ Hmm I want to fuck up these children & family’s lives today.” The only cause of these defects is us humans with our chemical weapon testing and who knows what else men did over the centuries in the name of all evil & demonic .
Humans didn’t cause these birth defects either my dear. Neanderthal (scientific code for nephilim) is in our DNA. That is fact. That these physical anomalies occur, while perhaps tragic for those affected, are really not a big deal to our Creator. He knows they will be receiving a glorified body of flesh and bone that is perfect and will live forever in His presence, and be rewarded for the special challenges they faced in this school of life. Their memory of their afflicted life on earth will fade away like a vapor when they encounter the glory of God and their new body, that came from the seed of their earthly body.
To Garbonzo cont.:
Your next logical conclusion would be that, OK – when Adam and Eve blew it and failed the test, God should have killed them and started over before letting them have kids.
That ignores the problem of Satan and the issues he was bringing up regarding God’s sovereignty over humans. He would had to have killed off a large number of angels as well. How would that go over with the rest of the angels?
So instead of hitting the reset button, Jehovah let it play out. When He finally intervenes our situation on earth will be so violent and morally disgusting, it will be quite obvious Adam and Eve made a massive mistake listening to Satan. This will set a precedent for all time that mankind living independent of their Creator can’t succeed. It also sets a precedent for what angels can get away with.
As massive as the universe is, if it’s God’s purpose to have humans eventually inhabiting other planets wouldn’t it be wise to have issues like we’ve discussed settled before doing so?
So for the cost of a few thousand years of suffering on one planet, the entire universe can reap the benefit for millions of years to come.
Jehovah sees the ‘big picture’. As the bible states:
Isaiah 55
6 Search for Jehovah while he may be found.+
Call to him while he is near.+
7 Let the wicked man leave his way+
And the evil man his thoughts;
Let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy on him,+
To our God, for he will forgive in a large way.*+
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,+
And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So my ways are higher than your ways
And my thoughts than your thoughts.+
Many don’t understand that everything God creates is eternal. He is not in the killin bidness. Although He has used sin and death to refine humans and angels for the eons to come, the eternal seed in each being will be made perfect one day, just as he wishes, 1 Timothy 2 :4
Garbonzo,
So your ideal God would be one who makes sure no babies are ever born with any problems or if they are he would immediately patch them up upon birth.
Forget the fact that a lot of these kids are born deformed because of people polluting the environment with heavy metals or radiation – “It’s still God’s fault” according to you.
And i suppose God would have to make sure they never go hungry until the age of 18, right?
I mean what’s the point of making sure babies are born whole if they’re born into extreme poverty and die with a bloated belly before they reach the age of 5? They’re innocent kids for God’s sake!
Do the parents receive a monthly ‘God-check for child support’ or does food magically appear in the fridge?
What about childhood cancers? Would God have to cure those until they’re 18? When does their innocence quit?
What about accidents? If an 8 year old falls out the treehouse and breaks their neck, does God need to miraculously resurrect them or heal their spine or is that asking too much?
Where do you draw the line for God’s intervention?
Your ‘perfect God’ would in effect be no more than a proactive health insurance policy for kids.
Is that all you want of God? You promise, that’s all you’re going to ask?
All i’ve ever read from you never puts any of the onus on mankind. It’s all on God. That’s called “having a sense of entitlement”, a ‘Welfare mentality’…
What’s ironic is that God promises to deliver waaaaaay beyond all that for DESERVING mankind, but that doesn’t matter to you because all that matters is the ‘right here, right now – forget long-term’.
The challenge is for us is to quit being small-minded and try to think ‘big picture’. Remember what i quoted, “My thoughts (are higher) than your thoughts”. God thinks big Big BIG picture.
Acknowledge that it might not come naturally for us to ‘have the mind of God’. It takes effort and faith. Try asking Jehovah God for some faith – that’d be the place to start. Treat it like an experiment if that’s what it takes.
Yes, Ross, my “perfect God” would not allow innocent babies to suffer, because a moral being would not allow that if they had God’s supposed power. And I know your perfect God would not allow innocent babies to suffer either, because you are a moral person, and I know you would not be one to withhold food from a starving child.
Call it a “proactive health insurance policy” or whatever you want. You know moral people step up to help when innocent babies are in need, *no matter what the cause is*. But you have to make God into this immoral being who let’s innocent babies suffer because there’s no other way to explain why God is not stepping in to help. But there’s another option. God doesn’t care about us, or he doesn’t exist.
If you allowed yourself to consider it, it may lead you to a happier life, or if not, maybe you believe you’re happy enough and want to live in ignorance. I know I wanted to know the truth, no matter where it took me. I knew that if the evidence led me to God, my faith would be that much greater, but if not, I did not want to believe in something I did not think was true.
I know this is getting through to you. I was in your position not too long ago. God works in mysterious ways. We can’t understand everything, etc., etc. But it’s an excuse. It’s denial. It’s pride. Because we don’t want to believe something we believed for decades wasn’t true. “What will my family think, what will my friends think. I don’t have the luxury of questioning my beliefs because if they aren’t true, I will lose too much.” I went through it.
It’s a lot like an abusive relationship. You know the relationship is wrong, but you can’t give up on it.
But it gets better. You aren’t alone. You aren’t the first and you won’t be the last. There are a lot of good people who will be there for you, who will understand you. The world is nowhere near as bad as the media makes it look. The news reports on the bad things, they rarely report the good things, because it’s the bad things that are not normal. The bad people are extraordinary, they are outliers. And they are disappearing. Crime is going down, there are less wars, poverty is being eradicated. It’s the best humans have ever had it. And there are good, moral, people out there.
People who help out others when they see suffering, even animals. We should expect nothing less from an Almighty, all moral, creator.
I was 19 when i committed myself to this outlook (became a JW). I had been raised in RLDS but never accepted that like my brothers did. Then i spent a few years being a hippy-freak, then a punk rocker that leaned towards eastern philosophy. Then came back around to the bible and made my decision. I lost a lot of friends doing that.
So your notion that i am stuck in my belief system because i’d be afraid to break out and upset my apple cart doesn’t fit me…at all.
I’m absolutely confident this is the truth. I can’t help what others think in relation to when the end finally comes. I’m sure it’s close but that could still be 20 years from now. When it exactly happens is above our pay grade. We shouldn’t serve for a date.
I agree with you that the media stresses the bad over the good. You never know if you can trust their reporting or not. It’s highly manipulated and conditioned. Still though, there is real suffering and severe poverty in much of the world. We don’t see it so out of mind. How would you like to be born in a Brazilian favela? Or Bangladesh? As an ‘untouchable’ in India? In some unstable African country where you never know if the govt will fall apart and another civil war break out?
But we’ve got it pretty good so what’s the big deal?
WWII wasn’t that long ago where the suffering was enormous and it was only 20 years removed from WWI How confident are you that WW3 won’t happen? With US’ staggering debt we might not even need a war to fall apart. What happens here if those monthly checks are cut off and their EBT cards don’t work?
We’ll have our own zombie apocalypse. All the poor will be coming after YOUR stuff.
Garbonzo,
Let’s repackage this argument a different way…
Are animals treated unfairly? Do you rail against the fact that millions of animals die violently or of hunger every single day? Baby chicks are ignored by their mothers over the bigger baby chicks and starve right in the nest!! Baby deer are eaten alive by mountain lions!! Innocent, cute animals are gobbled alive every minute of every day!
WHY DOESN’T GOD DO SOMETHING?!!! HE MUST NOT EXIST!!!
No, you haven’t made one mention of animal suffering. You take it as just ‘nature’ – that’s how things are and have been for millions of years. OK but then you expect humans to get special treatment. Why?
From what we know, humanoids that lived before Adam and Eve were essentially glorified apes. They lived and died with no special relationship to their creator. They could make cave drawings, maybe carve a rock into an animal but were otherwise fairly limited.
I’m sure some Neanderthal babies starved because cave-daddy ran out of spears for hunting or the family was trapped in a cave by saber-toothed tigers or some other prehistoric beast. Was that wrong?
Should God have intervened for them?
Now Jehovah makes a special creation in Adam & Eve. They are made in his own image with godly qualities with a potential to live forever. This is something new!
When they couldn’t obey the one simple rule he gave them and instead obeyed a damn snake, they ruined their station with God. So now them and their offspring were relegated BACK to a status like that of Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal.
Is that unfair? Our babies might not get eaten by a T-Rex but they can die a thousand other ways.
Is that really unfair? Why? Why would God be more obligated to smooth-skinned humans than Cro-magnon or Denisovans?
Our original parents gave up any right to special treatment. So now we are living with the consequences. Hey, at least we’re smarter and can make life more enjoyable for ourselves than prior ‘models’.
Of course this same heightened intelligence has gotten us into trouble. We’re so smart we can take advantage of the environment to the point of abuse and in turn, ruin it and our health and babies are born with problems because of it.
But in your estimation, God should intervene and stop the babies’ suffering. It’s all his fault.
How many Neanderthal babies grew up breathing smoke from fires in their caves and lived shortened lives because of it?
Are you upset God didn’t intervene and save those cave-babies from their stupid, heavy-browed parents?
The only reason you feel this is injustice from God is because you were created with a smarter brain and a spiritual need; a heightened expectation. “For he has put eternity into their hearts”.
That spiritual aspect is a vestigial product of what he gave Adam & Eve. They were created to expect and need and value a relationship with their Creator. So this part of you is what motivates you to rail against God. Deep down you desire a relationship with God but feel conflicted because of your lack of knowledge and understanding.
God hasn’t left mankind totally in the lurch. With the provision of his Son, he’s established a link to individuals who can prove themselves worthy of “special treatment”; people that can behave themselves, care enough to actively search for God and show appreciation for Him. As for the rest of mankind who reject any obligation to God or listen to Satan’s lies, yea – they can live and die like a Neanderthal as far as He’s concerned. No, he’s not really all that sentimental about it. He’s seen ‘innocent’, cute creatures live and die for millions of years. Sorry babies.
It’s up to you which camp you want to be in. If you don’t want any part of God, then just live out your present life. Be happy you don’t live in a cave. Drink a Bud and watch the game.
“God is the Savior of all Mankind, especially those who believe” All means All. In their appointed time All will come to the full knowledge of the Savior. There is a special time in God’s calendar reserved for those who can look around and know that something greater than themselves created this beautiful planet, and have taken the time to find out who that Creator is. Who can create a blade of grass, much less a seed that will grow into a mighty tree that might live over a thousand years. All one has to do is look up at the night sky to know, if they bother to consider, that an great intelligent and loving Creator made this Universe. A Universe that is working all things together for the good of God’s highest creation, mankind. “For every knee will bow and gladly and boldly proclaim that Jesus th Christ is Lord of All. All means all!
The universe is a scary and violent place. All we see in the universe is complete *imperfection*. If it were created by an intelligent, loving being, planets would perfectly orbit around their stars, and moons around their planets, without colliding into each other, getting sucked into their stars, being incinerated, being sucked into black holes, asteroid belts constantly colliding into them, stars constantly dying, etc. etc. On Earth we see no difference, parasites have no other function but to be literal parasites, stealing the life of other lifeforms.
Carnivores viciously attack and stalk their prey, and each other. Mothers eat their babies, death and suffering happens constantly. Birth defects are one thing, but the way humans are shaped and where organs are placed are less than perfect. A place for entertainment is placed right next to the garbage dump for instance. Some organs take the long way around to where they are supposed to go instead of going directly to where it needs to be because they are vestiges from when we had longer necks. The way animals are built do not resemble that of an intelligent creator, it resembles something that threw everything at the dart board and saw what stuck, and repeated that billions of times.
Yes, there’s beauty too. An intelligent creator would be MORE likely if there WASN’T beauty. If the universe is random, you’d expect equal parts beauty and equal parts ugly, and that’s exactly what we see. If there were no ugly, we’d be right to say, “huh, someone must have done that,” and vice versa if there were no beauty. Having some beauty in he universe does not make an intelligent creator more likely. Having only some beauty, and some ugly is evidence there isn’t one.
Saying the universe is evidence of an intelligent creator is like a puddle saying the crator it lives in is evidence the crator was created intelligently becuase it “fits” the puddle so perfectly.
It’s easy to create a story after the fact and say, “Oh, God WANTED perfection and beauty, but we don’t see that anymore because REASONS.” Is it not possible that’s just made up? ALL of the evidence we have RIGHT NOW says THE OPPOSITE. We have no evidence God wanted perfection, so why invent this concept? Unfortunately we were not created with the ability to see the past, or at least just the part where God is creating the universe. If God wants to us to believe he exists, why doesn’t he provide better evidence of his existence? Just a simple vision of the past would have done, and then everyone would have evidence of his existence. If he gave us a brain with the capabilities of using logic and reason, he should want us to use it. Using it ultimately leads you to conclude it is unlikely he exists. So either he doesn’t exist, or he wants us to believe he doesn’t exist.
Genesis has God proclaiming simply, “Good” when certain creations were finished. He didn’t say, “PERFECT!”. (Something to think about)
Here you go again Garbonzo, assuming if there’s a creator then everything would be sanitized with no, what you think of as “ugliness” and people would robotically always do exactly the correct thing with no possibility of deviation. Maybe for biological systems to work, this is as good as it gets.
Your obsession with this makes me wonder if you’re not OCD; washing your hands 100 times per day and carrying Lysol wipes in your pocket. Possibly a touch of Asperger’s on the side. That’s cool – that type is in demand these days in corporate America.
So God created perfect beings to live in an imperfect world, John? Biological systems can’t work without obvious errors? So there’s some things God can’t do?
Please look up ad hominem attacks and how they are a common diversionary tactic from logic.
Can our actions affect our chances of being saved, John? If we do good things do we increase our chances of being saved, or not? What about bad things? Does it make us less likely to be saved? Does God grant exclusivity over salvation to good people? Or at least people who aren’t “too bad”? So we can earn salvation by being good? The transactional model is a central theme of the Bible. I know believing in a non-transactional model is appealing because it’s more just and moral, but this is not what the Bible teaches and hence what the Bible teaches is immoral. There are countless examples of God punishing people for being immoral, especially in the Old Testament. This is called transactional. You do good, I don’t punish you. You do bad, I punish you. If you do good you earn good things. If you do bad you earn bad things. You can’t simply throw out the Old Testament because it shows God’s behavior. Does God change? If God doesn’t change, it shows God has no objections to the transactional model at least in some circumstances. The New Testament still teaches Hell, or even if we were to be generous and say there is no Hell or Hades, or that it simply refers to death, death is still used as a punishment for evil doers, and blessings are explicitly stated as being for those who are righteous. Job suffered a lot, but the Bible story of Job doesn’t disprove the transactional model, but proves it, as Job was rewarded twice-fold in the end. Why? Because he was righteous. He earned it through his actions. You will struggle to find a Biblical character that was pure evil, yet accepted by God. What does this tell you? There’s no escaping the transactional model. Even though we have never seen a good deed be punished explicitly by God, even if I were to give you that you don’t *automatically* receive good things if you do good (even though the Bible certainly implies this), it certainly increases your chances, doesn’t it?
Without the transactional model, there is no punishment for evil deeds, and no reason not to do them. Everyone is the same. Yet Jesus talked about a straight and narrow path. He definitely talked about exclusivity. Not everyone gets the same reward. Yet you can’t believe this and also not believe in the transactional model. Christians want to have it both ways. If good people do good things simply because they are good people, and bad people do bad things simply because they are bad people, then you’re saying goodness and badness is inherent, and who we are can’t be changed.
If the reward is only for the good and we can change our actions in order to receive the reward, that’s transactional.
If the reward is only for the good and we can’t change our actions in order to receive the reward, that’s destiny.
If the reward is for the good and the bad, that’s sameness / nihilism. Nothing matters, we all end up the same place.
A tumor in a man’s brain caused him to completely change his character. He went from loving and kind to untrustworthy, a liar, and a drunk. Is this man responsible for his actions? Is he more or less likely to be saved? What if someone has a mental illness that causes actions people wouldn’t otherwise do? What if people who do bad things have improper wiring, a faulty system? Can God hold “bad people” responsible for things when it’s increasingly obvious “evil” is caused by bad brain wiring? And just as sometimes treating mental illness can cause people to not do immoral acts, one day in the future, we will be able to change the brain of immoral people to be moral. So can God hold these people responsible for their actions? If everyone can be saved, what’s preventing that from happening? Can God hold people responsible for something they did that was ultimately dumb luck? If some people inherently can’t be saved, then do they really have free will to make their own choices to do good?
If Satan can influence human events, isn’t that taking away human free will? How can humans be held responsible for things Satan causes them to do?
Sorry, but the Bible is inherently contradictory. Again, if God is omnipotent, why doesn’t he end suffering right now? Not tomorrow, not years from now. Now. Most explanations starts with, “He can’t, because…” Stop right there. God is not omnipotent if he can’t do something. If God is constrained, even by his own laws of the universe or morality, he is not omnipotent / Almighty. Some people are so perplexed by this contradiction they claim God thinks suffering on Earth is OK in some shape or form. “1 year equals a thousand to God, so this suffering is meaningless to him.” “People who suffer won’t even remember their suffering in due time.” Tell that to the poor child being brutally raped right now, which God has the power to stop! It still violates the Almightiness of God because you’re saying, “God can’t feel the same feeling humans have when suffering right now. God can’t feel time in the same way humans can.” Again, if God can’t do something he’s not Almighty. “This is a test people have to pass.” God can’t tell ahead of time whether they would pass or not without them experiencing any pain?
If he understands the suffering humans are feeling, why doesn’t he stop it?
Either *he can’t* in some shape or form, or he doesn’t care, or he doesn’t exist. Take your pick.
So will there be free will in heaven? Then will there be suffering in heaven? Is it impossible for God to make it so that we don’t have to fail to learn? Man is already working on it. Brain stimulation devices are helping drone pilots learn targets without the need for failure. You could say, “inputting” learned behavior into the brain. We already have some of that through our DNA. Again, “God can’t do something because…” Is he really Almighty then? Notice, I’m not attributing suffering to God. We don’t need to have that conversation. All we need to know is God can do something to stop it (or he’s not Almighty), and he’s not. So we need to ask ourselves if that’s a reasonable belief to have about God?
I’m an agnostic. I can’t rule out some creator or creators are doing this to us for entertainment or for some higher purpose, but I can rule out contradictions, and so this creator or creators can’t be Almighty and also care about our well being. They could be restricted in some way, or they don’t care. One or the other. I hope there is an afterlife, this could all be a simulation or whatever and we wake up with some wires in our head, etc., or we can somehow learn to live forever in this life (as long as life is good), but I don’t *believe* in it, because there’s no evidence for it. Again, I can hope and pray to some unknown entity that there is an afterlife, but I can’t put money on it.
“death is still used as a punishment for evil doers”
This presumes that you have a birthright to everlasting life just because you tasted life. If true, that would also apply to every single person who ever lived. That would include all of the worst and truly evil people. And you also want them to not have to change any of their bad habits to continue living because that would then be “transactional”, god-forbid (pardon my intentional pun). These evil people would of course all vie for power and do you think they’d avoid killing again?
Would God then be expected to endlessly resurrect the victims to only die again at the hands of the evil?
Obviously your simplistic reasoning in favor of a judge-less utopia is an impossibility. So if you applied even a scosche of reason you’d toss out this non-transactional model of yours for being the ludicrous thing it is.
Your thinking is akin to those who call cops derogatory names and yell at them when arresting some miscreant but when you’re the victim the first words out of your mouth are “SOMEONE CALL THE COPS!! I’VE BEEN ROBBED/SHOT/RAPED”
Or are you going to tell me you’d just quietly suffer and fear it would be “transactional” for the criminal to answer to justice?
‘The poor guy probably has a tumor or bad parenting, i’ll let him raping my daughter and stabbing my son slide’
Or do you only apply these wonky standards to God and they of course wouldn’t apply to you? Yea, that’s what i thought…
What does what you “believe” have to do with life and death? Does what one believes somehow nullify the work that was done on the cross of calvary for ALL men? Life and death is in the blood of man, and can be measured physiologically. Does simple belief somehow change anything that has already been made or anything that has or will happen? The obvious answer is no. The Bible is clear about the character of God. He does not take evil into account. His character is pure 100% love, and because of His desire that ALL are reconciled unto Him, He provided the pure blood sacrifice that was required to redeem ALL humans. The one caveat He does include in this is “especially to those who do believe” in 1 Timothy 4:10. where Paul declares that God is the Savior of ALL people. The “especially” bunch are the humans He has chosen to give the gift of faith to, so His Son will have a bride. Without the gift of faith no man can believe or realize the true and loving character of God. One can ask for the gift of faith, but to even ask for the gift of faith implies one is already chosen to receive it. If one has not received the gift of faith during this age of the Gentiles, the age of grace, then they will not be in this special called out race of saints, that will rule and reign with Jesus Christ on the earth for 1000 years from Jerusalem, which will be the seat of government during the 1000 years. Because they have experienced living on the earth in mortal bodies, the saints are uniquely qualified and necessary to rule and reign with Jesus Christ during the 1000 years, and they will receive their immortal bodies when Jesus comes to the clouds and calls them from among the living and the dead. These are the ones who will judge the nations and after a great deal of work, which will take 1000 years, death will be swallowed up in their victorious reign which will finally bring peace on earth. But what about those who were not given the gift of faith and have died. As with all who have died, their bodies are still dead, but the breath that was given them by God, returns to God. They are alive in spirit, but have no body to express their spirit, or to move about on the earth. They are of no consequence during the 1000 years because they have no bodies. They will be resurrected to life after the 1000 years. Some call this Judgement Day. Judgement in God’s economy is for the benefit of the one being judged. Judgement is not punishment, it is refinement. God is a refining fire, and all dross will be refined from all, and from the earth, and from this universe. Death has to be conquered before this will happen, and this will be the great victory that the saints and Jesus Christ will achieve during the 1000 years to present to the throne of God. 6000 years has been given to man on this earth. The last 1000 years belongs to Him, and He will use that 1000 years to prepare the earth to receive His throne, that He will move to the earth to tabernacle will ALL. God will get what He desires, that ALL are reconciled unto Him. Would anyone presume to tell God that He cannot have what He desires? Sadly, most of the Christian church on the earth today are the most presumptuous. The finest Hebrew scholars, astronomists, and scientists have determined that since Adam, approximately 5990 years have passed. Subtract the 7 year tribulation that will happen during the last 7 years of the 6000 years given to man, where God pours out His wrath on the earth and it’s governments, it would appear that were getting pretty close to the end of the years given to man’s government on the earth.
1. Why does God choose who gets to be faithful or not? You’re not allowing for any choice in the matter. If I can’t choose, then my destiny is pre-determined.
2. Job received a reward for being faithful. Moses was punished for being unfaithful. This is littered throughout the Old Testament. Obviously the Bible is trying to tell us that being good = rewards and being bad = punishment. And that makes sense, because it was written by humans, and humans have a sense of justice and humans create justice systems that are designed to incentivize good behavior and disincentivize bad behavior. GOD was made in MAN’s image, not the other way around.
3. If Adam didn’t disobey, we supposedly wouldn’t be in this mess. We were punished because of something Adam did. Adam did bad and he received a punishment. That isn’t love, that’s manipulation. It seems like you’re saying Adam was flawed (so God created someone flawed) and it takes 7000 + 7 years or whatever in order for us to become whole / “refined”. Again, (A) why not create Adam whole to begin with. (B) Why should it take 6000 years.
God is not LOVE when children are suffering like this. I don’t know how you can excuse this by saying “it all ends up okay in the end.” Would you allow a little baby to suffer WHEN YOU CAN DO SOMETHING TO STOP IT, simply because you knew the suffering would eventually stop? No. That’s cruel. And you know it’s cruel. The reason why God is not stopping suffering is because either it doesn’t exist, or it doesn’t care about us and is basically an immoral deadbeat father. I think the former is more likely obviously.
4. Yes, I agree, there are some scriptures in the Bible that hints that everyone will be saved, good and bad, but other scriptures contradict this. That’s why some Christian denominations follow one side and other follow the other side. If you pick and choose what scriptures you want to follow, you can ignore the obvious contradiction and use some scriptures to back up your viewpoint, while ignoring the others.
5. I have no idea what “fine Hebrew scholars, astronomists, and scientists” you’re talking about. Care to share a reputable source for this information? (A) There are human cave paintings found over ten thousand years ago. (B) It’s literally impossible for humans to have came from just two gene pools. (C) I assume you believe the flood actually happened as well, when there is no proof of it in the geological layers anywhere on Earth. If the whole Earth was covered in water, there would be proof of it. The fact that there isn’t proof means it never happened. Plus, all of those animals, birds, insects, and bacteria couldn’t have fit in that small ark anyway, even if there were able to be gathered (which is impossible, especially from Australia and other masses separated from the mainland.). (D) People have been saying 6000 years has passed since Adam since Jesus’ time. It has never been true.
“death is still used as a punishment for evil doers”
“This presumes that you have a birthright to everlasting life just because you tasted life.”
How does it presume that? I don’t presume to have a birthright to gifts, but if my brother gets gifts and I don’t get gifts, it’s probably because I’m being punished for behaving badly.
You must be reaching for straws at this point, because I’m pretty sure the Bible even mentions punishment for evildoers. Why are you debating this point? Because you realize the logic makes sense, and you have nowhere else to go?
“That would include all of the worst and truly evil people.”
What do you consider “truly evil people”? It seems like you’re talking about inherent evil. If people can be inherently evil, it means they have no free will. They’re destined to be bad.
Either you believe people have the capacity to change from bad to good or they don’t. If you believe people have the capacity to change, there are no truly evil people. If you’re saying people have the capacity to change, it means there’s some set of circumstances you can come up with (let’s call it Scenario X) where they become good people. Therefore there are no people worthy of punishment. God would be punishing people based on pure luck, simply because those circumstances (Scenario X) never materialized.
“Obviously your simplistic reasoning in favor of a judge-less utopia is an impossibility.”
WHAT??? You think a judge-less utopia is an impossibility? I think you need to think that one through again.
“Would God then be expected to endlessly resurrect the victims to only die again at the hands of the evil?”
You miss the point. If you believe in the transactional model for God, you believe in destiny. If you don’t believe in the transactional model for God, you believe in nihilism. Of course there’s a third choice, and you know that’s where I stand, because neither destiny nor nihilism makes logical sense. The third choice is there is no God. We do good things because we are wired to survive. Being a good social member of a group increases our odds of survival. We are stronger together. Doing bad is not only immoral, it’s illogical. Hurting someone else ultimately hurts ourselves.
“Or do you only apply these wonky standards to God and they of course wouldn’t apply to you? Yea, that’s what i thought…”
You of all people must realize that a higher standard should be applied to God. Who keeps faulty equipment around? Faulty equipment can be dangerous, so we avoid coming into contact with faulty equipment. We remove it from our midst. It’s the same for humans. There’s no such thing as inherent evil. We separate those with faulty wiring so that they don’t harm us. Justice does not and should not equal revenge. Rehabilitation should always be the goal. If we can have some degree of confidence that a detainee is rehabilitated and has a low or near zero chance of committing more crimes, we should set them free to become productive members of society. I guess we have the capacity to be more moral than God. :shrug:
Melissa, your convenient ‘once saved, always saved’ disposition is really a cover for wickedness itself. It’s another way Satan has perverted his counterfeit form of christianity.
Let me remind you of the sentence for ‘goats’ in Jesus illustration of Judgement Day and the separation of sheep and goat-like people: it’s “everlasting destruction”. Matt 25:31→
But your reasoning “makes the word of God invalid” just like Jesus told the Pharisees who had created a counterfeit form of Judaism.
Yes, “God is love”. That means his overall motivation is one of love. That doesn’t mean he loves the wicked. He “loves the world” of mankind in a general sense. That doesn’t mean he loves every individual. You conveniently overlook scriptures that make that apparent, such as,
“Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5)
Your teaching is Satanic. It gives one the impression that it really doesn’t matter what you do since everyone will come out the same in the end. That’s why there is so much hypocrisy among so-called ‘christians’. That’s the basis for Satanism: “do what thou wilt”.
You’re doing exactly what the serpent did in the Garden of Eden. You’re basically saying God’s requirements are optional, as the serpent told Eve, “You most certainly will not die!” (if she ate of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge) after God had quite plainly told them they would.
Your twisted reasoning makes “everlasting destruction” meaningless. I assure you, it’s not.
You lack a basic understanding of the Bible. The Old Testament including Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was written to the Jews. Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles. In this age of grace, the perfect blood of Jesus has covered the original sin of Adam, and since we all have blood, the blood sacrifice was for all. Romans 11 says God consigned all to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on ALL. All mean all. It’s that simple. Study to show thyself approved, because it’s people like you that believe and teach a half assed gospel that will be left to learn it during the coming tribulation on this earth.
COMBO Skepticism, Afterlife – BOTH of you are right, the Bible contains both a transactional and a non-transactional perspective of God. I think both of you are helping me to prove my point. I just hope what both of you take away from this conversation is that the Bible is hopelessly contradictory and of course, therefore, illogical. I know it’s hard to realize a deeply ingrained worldview is wrong. I’ve been through it. I know what it’s like. But your life will be much much better when you come to realize skepticsm / agnosticism is the only truth. A skeptic has many definitions. You could be skeptical of other people, even judgemental, but when I say skeptic, I mean agnosticism, most importantly, that you look inward, and become skeptical of your own beliefs. It doesn’t matter what you believe, you could always be wrong. That’s what agnosticism is.
You will NEVER reach a point in your life when you can be 100% sure of your beliefs, and that’s the ONLY thing you can actually be sure of, and you have to know that this is okay. When you realize this simple fact, it gives you the ultimate solace. As humans, we want to have all of the answers, so much so that we make things up without evidence and start to believe it, just to comfort ourselves, pretending we have all of the answers. But if you really want all the answers, and you’re searching for the truth, this is it: When you become a skeptic / agnostic, you’ve finally found the truth.
By always being skeptical about what you believe, you don’t ever have to second guess your FOUNDATIONAL belief. There’s only one thing I never have to question, and it makes logical sense why. Whereas if you are a non-skeptic, your foundational belief is by definition illogical, causing your psyche to be warped.
By always questioning all of my other beliefs, I never have to question myself and ask myself, “Is my *foundational* belief actually true?” I don’t have to do that because I’d be asking, “Is it really true that we will never be 100% sure of anything?” Of course the answer is YES! This is the surest thing we can ever be sure of in life. So when you accept this, your psyche will be mended.
I used to be severely depressed as a non-skeptic, about 10 years ago. I know how being a non-skeptic feels, and it’s not good. I think some humans try to dig in deeper just to try to find some modicum of comfort. It’s like a battered spouse trying to convince themselves that the battery isn’t wrong. You aren’t going to feel better by digging in, you’re going to feel better by escaping this mind trap. It wasn’t some instant miracle, but when I finally accepted the truth of skepticism, I slowly started to become less and less depressed. I developed an open mind instead of a closed mind, and it allowed me to discover ideas and philosophies I could never have allowed myself to consider as a closed-minded non-skeptic.
I think your brain will automatically go into denial in order to prevent the pain of realizing what you believed was wrong, but you have to consciously stop your brain from doing this if you want to be really truly happy with life. It gets better with time, but I know it’s painful right now, especially if you are full of pride. You can’t be wrong, because you’re smart, or you just KNOW things, you’re special. That’s pride. You can’t be a non-skeptic and at the same time be humble. If Jesus commands us to be humble, it simultaneously means that he’s telling us we should be skeptical of everything else he says. Make sure the things he says aren’t contradictory or illogical. Because we can’t be humble and not do that. We’d be prideful if we thought we didn’t have to do that because we know we’re right.
I know you might be asking, “How can you claim to be a skeptic, yet also tell us what we believe is wrong, and contradictory?” The answer is, I can’t know for sure what you believe is wrong and contradictory. I’m always open to new evidence. But I’ve read a lot about the Bible and Christianity, and theism, and nothing has convinced me, personally, that it isn’t contradictory. Everything I know so far shows to me that it is inherently contradictory. I can try and tell you how I see it, but it’s obviously up to you to be honest with yourself and see it for yourself. Maybe you are right, I will never know for certain, but again, all anyone can do is try to be honest with themselves personally, and try to help others in their personal journey as well.
Being a skeptic means always being willing to consider other ideas, and always being willing to challenge your own belief system, even your foundational beliefs. Of course, you need criteria for when, why, and how to change beliefs, but if you’re truly open-minded, I think you’ll figure it out eventually. The main thing is, you can’t be honest with yourself, you can’t be truly open minded, and believe contradictory beliefs. You have to truly be looking at your beliefs to see if there is any contradiction. This takes time and effort, but it pays off in the end. Your psyche benefits. Although I don’t believe in the spiritual realm, I believe this is what elightenment really is. The more honest and open you are with yourself, the more enlightened you are. The more humble you are, the more enlightened you are. Enlightenment is a spectrum. You can’t ever achieve full enlightenment, because you can’t ever be 100% sure of anything. You can’t be perfect in anything. You have to continually look inward and improve yourself, and constantly challenge your beliefs.
Obviously some people are further along than others, but there is not ending to the journey. The journey is everlasting.
For what it’s worth, I totally disagree with the common assertion made in the atheist community that there is nothing after death. This is just as stupid as believing there is something after death.
1. There’s no evidence either way, so why are you not agnostic on the issue, just as you are for God? We can’t prove or disprove God, so we are agnostic atheists. It’s the same for death. You’re claiming there’s nothing after death. If you want to claim something, prove it. Put up or shut up. Actually, the concept of death itself is a claim that hasn’t been proved, much less “life after death”.
To most people, death means the permanent cessation / destruction of consciousness, and not just what we can observe and prove. We can observe and prove the physical body of someone decomposing and not being able to talk or move anymore, but that’s a far cry from what we think death is in our heads.
First of all, we don’t even know what consciousness is or where it comes from, so what most people think of as death itself is not accurately known or defined from the beginning. Second of all, we don’t have proof of true permanency. Everything can change with enough energy as far as we can tell. Who’s to say we won’t be able to bring people back to life, with science, not “magic” or anything supernatural? And third of all, we don’t have proof of true cessation / destruction. The law of the conservation of energy states that nothing is every truly destroyed, only transformed. Who’s to say our consciousness is actually destroyed? If you take all of this together, we don’t have a good definition of death to even begin to prove death is real, and the qualities itself that we think we know about death hasn’t even been proved. Death itself is all just illusion / myth.
So the neutral position should not be to believe in death as a fact as most everyone believes is the case. And “life after death” is the wrong way to look at it. The concept of life after death is like the concept of playing with unicorns after meeting Santa Clause.
2. You can’t say “there’s nothing after death” even from a materialist / non-spiritual standpoint. We could cure aging before we die. We might figure out a way to escape the death of the universe. Or this could all be virtual reality (I would say that’s materialist, or at least not spiritual, as it draws from a concept we know exists / will exist). And even if one were to say there’s not enough evidence of reincarnation to “believe” in it, the anecdotal evidence that is there should at least cause doubt. I’m mainly talking about the now thousands of recorded children who remember a past life, and when researched, what was once thought of as fantasy were actually real people, with the children giving obscure details about the life and sometimes the events of the “death” of the life they remember. Obscure, seemingly random people who weren’t famous, and which seem impossible for a child to be taught, much less thousands of them. We don’t even have to mention past life regressions. That alone should cause doubt.
To be honest, having my memory erased and having to start all over again doesn’t seem too appealing either, but at least there is somewhat strong anecdotal evidence for it, as opposed to heaven or hell or other afterlife concepts. At least I’d be alive. And who knows, if the phenomenon is materialist, which is, after all, all we have evidence for, then we might be able to understand it and restore past life memories at a future date. Hey, at least it’s better for humans that people believe in reincarnation rather than heaven. The former would mean we need to make this world as good as we can for our next life, and improve technology and science so that we may understand how it works. That’s my purpose in life. The latter means we don’t have to care about Earth, as it’s just a hotel on our way to our more permanent home. Do we really care about how the hotel room looks at the end of our stay?
3. We can still have hope there is something after death, even if we don’t believe it. Atheism is often equated with nihilism, and I struggled with this after deconverting. I couldn’t reconcile the idea that if there’s no purpose to life, why not end it now? Especially if life sucks for you. No nihilist can honestly answer that question and not say there is no difference. This is what nihilism *is.* I jumped from the frying pan into the fire by jumping from theism to nihilism. I became an unwilling nihilist because I honestly believed that was truth, especially as my new atheist friends in the community were telling me this is just how it is. Deal with it. I considered suicide just to get life over with (I did as a theist as well, because I felt I could never live up to the standards “God” (but really it was man the whole time, an organized religion) set; it was much worse as a theist) and if it were easy I might have. My life wasn’t too bad (it was easier after deconverting), I don’t think I had any mental illness, if I had a mental illness I can honestly say it was caused by incoherent / contradictory thoughts in my psyche that I needed to sort through, which most people need to sort through, but I’m not a psychologist, so I don’t know if that would be classified as a mental illness, but I just didn’t get the point of life. It’s sort of like playing a video game and you just realize you’re going in circles, going nowhere. What was the point, again? Might as well stop playing the game, right? Life was just boring. Of course my nihilist friends would try to convince me not to commit suicide, but when asked, couldn’t provide for me a logical answer as to why not. “Life is worth living.” “Why?” “Because of family and friends.” “But they will all die too. Everything dies. So why is life worth living, again?” “Because it is.” It reminded me of debating a theist.
I was depressed for months (again, I was also depressed as a theist, worse so) until I had to realize on my own that nihilism is just as illogical as theism, because both are making assumptions it can’t prove. You can’t sit there and claim there is no purpose to life. How do you know? Where’s your proof? When you make a claim, you have the burden of proof. Why do so many atheists not realize they are falling into the same logical trap as theism? My own explanation is that it’s really freakin’ hard for humans to say, “I don’t know.”
Even though the logical thing to do is remain agnostic when faced with no evidence for either side, you can always root for which side you want to win, and I’m rooting for the, “life has purpose,” side. I don’t know which side you prefer, but I’m not living my life like, “it’s the only one we’ve got, so make the most of it, YOLO.” If you’re playing a game of grand strategy you play to win, meaning, you make the moves that give you the best chance at winning, not the best chance at “losing less”. The YOLO lifestyle and mindset is “losing less”. I live, and act like there’s a purpose to life, and something after death, or rather, there’s no such thing as death, at least not for me. Even if I don’t believe it. Because the alternative is a loss in my books, and thinking it’s not a loss is just denial. Denihilism. Heh.
This isn’t illogical, or wishful thinking, it’s the most logical viewpoint to have.
I say this because I think many theists are afraid of skepticism / agnosticism, because they think they have to believe in nihilism at the same time, and that’s scary. Of course you want to believe in a higher meaning, and you are contributing to a bigger picture, and I believe that’s still true, even though I don’t believe in a god. Humanity is progressing, and we can do our best to contribute to this progression and be a good person. Make it your goal in life to contribute to society where you think you are most needed and use your wealth, time, and energy to make a difference in the world. That’s a higher meaning you can find truth in.
Being a nurse, I know the physiological aspects of God by the mathematics that can be measured by the blood of dying man, which is everyone. A for instance of this is that when the pH level of the blood drops below 7 it cannot sustain life. 6.99999 is death, certain death for all people. This and many more mathematical reasons is how I can be 100% sure that the perfect blood of Jesus, offered as a sacrifice, poured out of the human vessel as required by God, redeemed the entire Adamic race, especially those who believe He is who He says He is. Your agnosticity does nothing to change this. You will also be redeemed and your knee will bow and your mouth will confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord. That event in your life will occur much later than for us in the “especially to those who believe” number, but it will nevertheless occur. Luke the great physician says it well, in 3:6. All flesh shall see the salvation of God. All means all. I’m deeply sorry you have not been given the great gift of faith. You simply can’t believe under your own devices, mind, or will. One cannot believe in the living God unless He give you the faith to believe it. Question? Have you asked for this gift?
Read the context of Romans 11 that you refer to. Paul was highlighting that “the calling” to rule with Christ didn’t belong to the Jews only anymore but was opened to all because of the Jews general rejection of the Messiah. That doesn’t mean ‘all’ will receive ‘the calling’ but the opportunity was opened to all.
That is why that day of Pentecost in year 33 was so important. It dramatically proved that God’s blessing was no longer limited to the nation of Israel when the Christians could suddenly speak foreign languages and were able to preach to all the foreigners visiting Jerusalem.
It all depended on whether those hearers responded positively to the good news being preached and acted upon it in faith.
If your lazy theory was true there would have been no need to respond at all, much less prove faithful unto death as many of those early Christians had to do under very trying circumstances.
Jehovah’s original intent was to “make Israel a nation of kings and priests” -(Exodus) but the bulk of them rejected his son. If your lazy theory were true, he’d have simply forced them to respond properly one way or another. That’s what your implying isn’t it? That in time, God will somehow force every single person to get in line or that magically every single person will suddenly become obedient.
That’s not in harmony with the bible history of how God dealt with people, or common sense for that matter. That is ironically enough, Garbonzo’s idea of how it should work if there is a god.
You two might have more in common that you realize.
The result of this breaking the exclusivity that Israel enjoyed and inviting the gentiles to take part in Christ’s “covenant for a kingdom” would be successful. Revelation 5: “for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
And to be clear, ALL that had to do with filling the number, 144,000, that would rule with Christ in heaven for the 1,000 years you reference. (Rev chap 7 & 14 make that clear). The major thrust of Paul’s writings were directed to this limited group of Christians with the heavenly hope.
That’s why Christ said, “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
Your argument makes Christ’s words invalid here. You think it’s like Oprah, “Everybody gets a crown!”
The bulk of mankind, including you and me have the opportunity to succeed as part of the earth that is ruled over. Sorry, not everyone can be a king.
Counterfeit christians believe they can crash the party somehow and barge into Heaven. Not gonna happen. You’ll either be on this earth or nowhere at all.
So it makes sense to you that God would only save the Jews, to heck with the rest of his creation, right? Based on what, because Jews had a great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather who was the only good person on Earth or something? Why should ancestry determine whether you are saved or not? You know this makes no sense. It’s a story created by man. Isn’t it much more logical to believe that the Jews created the idea of a god, and an origin story, to make them feel special, or “chosen”, just as other cultures created similar gods and origin stories to make their group feel special, and then when Christianity separated from Judaism, they had to somehow reconcile the two beliefs, so they created some bullcrap story of how God changed his mind because Jews rejected the messiah?
And why is God punishing us for something Adam did? We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers. And “sin” is not some DNA mutation that can be passed on. Sin is literally just a synonym for immorality. You can’t somehow pass on immorality. If my mother was immoral, she doesn’t pass that down to me. Okay, so you have to say “sin” is some supernatural aura that we can’t see, or test with science. If that’s the case, God created that aura. Why the hell would he create some supernatural aura that passes through from one generation to another? All you can do is shrug and say, “I dunno. God works in mysterious ways.” That’s a cop out for when something doesn’t make sense and you can’t explain it. There’s no reason to believe in a God that makes no logical sense.
And why is literal human sacrifice needed in order to settle some feud God had with a long dead ancestor of ours?
If none of this were indoctrinated into our culture, it would make zero sense to us. That’s why very little Hindus and Buddhists become fundamentalist Christians of their own volition. If God were real and Christianity were true, they’d be lining up to convert because it makes sense. The opposite is true. So what, you must think that Hindus and Buddhists are worse people or something? What else can explain why they convert less than other Christian sects do? So either you believe Hindus and Buddhists are inherently worse people, or people get shafted simply because of where they were born / how they grew up. Does that honestly make sense to you?
How “we” respond to the perfect sacrifice that was made for ALL of the descendants of Adam has no consequence on what is a finished work, completed in Christ by his perfect blood sacrifice. Yours, mine, and anyone else’s belief or non belief does not or could not change what has been perfectly accomplished. Too bad you are so entrenched in your half ass gospel. God instructed man on how to deal with offences upon them. Turn the other cheek, love one another, forgive all sins and wrong that have been committed against us. How could you think, even believing the half assed gospel you defend that God would do less for people than he asks people to do themselves? Your arguments border on the absurd, and are just the ramblings of a silly brainwashed person who has refused to believe in the everlasting grace of a loving God. It offends me, and I guarantee you it is also an offence to the cross of Christ that guarantees you everlasting life, once resurrected. Sorry we won’t be seeing you at the marriage supper of The Lamb. Your resurrection occurs much later.
Garbonzo:
No, salvation was never meant for only the Jews. Jehovah told Abraham, “And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’” Gen. 22
Did you pick up on the “all nations”?
Jehovah chose Abraham to use because he was a man of faith. Men of genuine faith weren’t falling from trees evidently. God wanted to carve out a nation to wear his name and reflect his values and provide enough men and women of faith to fill out the heavenly Kingdom that would rule over the earth when the bulk of mankind would be resurrected and enjoy the prospect of everlasting life ON EARTH.
It’s funny that it’s not only religionists like Melissa that have it stuck in their head that ‘salvation’ equates with heaven, period. Even agnostics like yourself have it ingrained in them.
God never, ever, never ever planned for mankind go to heaven. At least not until man sinned and even then it was a limited number (144,000).
“Earth was made for man and man for the earth”
“The earth remains forever.” (Ecclesiastes 1:4)
“The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it.”—Psalm 37:29.
“the inhabited earth to come.” (Hebrews 2:5)
“As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.”—Psalm 115:16.
Alongside Jesus, the 144,000 will “rule as kings over the earth.”—Revelation 5:9, 10; Luke 12:32; John 3:13.
It would have been convenient if most Jews had of accepted the Messiah. Then the full number of 144k might have been filled much much quicker. Maybe we wouldn’t have had to wait another 2,000 years for the Kingdom to begin it’s 1,000 year reign.
As for Hindus, Buddhists and the rest, they too can certainly be included in the “resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15) which is on earth. Jehovah searches the hearts of all men. If they’re generally decent people, they’re name is put in his ‘book of life’ which means their entire being is recorded for playback at a later date: resurrection.
Melissa: you can ride out on the cross you came in on. The cross is an old pagan symbol. It’s idolatry, pure and simple. It’s part of a litany of things (beliefs in eternal torment, an immortal soul, worship of triads) that ties your religion to Babylon the Great, the mother of all false religion. It’s all a disgusting counterfeit heap and will reap it’s reward soon at the hands of the governments.
You are so off base! How can this be? Do you or do you not have the gift of faith in the Living God??
I rebuff the wrong teaching of eternal torment every day I live! How could I be so misunderstood by you? Confusion, get thee behind me.
Garbonzo:
Regarding transactional…punishment etc. I never said i don’t believe God punishes evildoers. He does. I fully support it too.
I don’t think i used the phrase, “inherently evil”. Maybe i did. I can see where that would be a misnomer.
But yea, i do believe there are wicked people that can’t be rehabilitated.
A prophecy at Isaiah 26 is evidently referring to life during the 1,000 year Judgement Day when the ‘righteous and unrighteous’ will be resurrected and taught Jehovah’s ways – in a perfect environment with no physical or mental abnormalities holding them back. Isaiah makes that clear that the resurrected will be made whole. Isaiah 35:
5 At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened,
And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer,
And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy.
Isaiah 26:
For when there are judgments from you for the earth,
The inhabitants of the land learn about righteousness.
10 Even if the wicked is shown favor,
He will not learn righteousness.
Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly,
And he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.
So yea, evidently even in perfect conditions some ‘wicked’ people will remain wicked.
Especially in this day, i find it shocking you don’t believe there are truly evil people in the world
You must lead a charmed life.
Proverbs 4:
14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,
And do not walk in the way of evil men.
15 Shun it, do not take it;
Turn away from it, and pass it by.
16 For they cannot sleep unless they do what is bad.
They are robbed of sleep unless they cause someone’s downfall.
Of course I know there are wicked people on the earth today, Blind I’m not. But God is using their wickedness, just a He is using your Holiness, as He is this master of Circumstances. To the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Please quote only verses that apply to the “times of the Gentiles” we find ourselves in now. Paul is writing to you and to me, and all alive now. His desire is that ALL are saved. He, as the Master of Circumstances is using all things to bring about exactly what He has told us He would do through His prophets. I’m cutting to the chase with you. We are 5990 years since the creation of Adam. God has given man 6000 years to govern the earth. The last 1000 belong to Him. During the last 7 years of man’s government on the earth, God pours out his pent up wrath out upon this man’s government of the earth. This time of tribulation makes believers out of Israel and they cry as a nation “Come Lord Jesus”. That He does, with us, the Sainted minions who have been selected to receive the gift of faith and have just married The Lamb at the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Our work will be clear during the 1000 reign of Jesus on the earth. We judge the nations, all of them that have ever existed. Only we and Jesus, who have lived in mortal bodies, are qualified for this job. Many die during the tribulation. 2/3 of the people on earth. The ones who live through it, will walk right in to the millennial reign in mortal bodies, and continue to live, give birth, and die. We will rule and reign with Jesus in Jerusalem for 1000 years. I know the rest of the story, even after the 1000 years, but it would take too long to cite the many scriptures that outline God’s Eons and Aeons of the earth. Start with Enoch, finish with the Revelation. It will come to you if you indeed have the gift of faith. Without that, no one can believe it. Ephesians 2 8-9
Are you saying that none of your ideas about what the Bible says were told to you by someone else? You just picked up the Bible and came up with these ideas? That’s the only way you, or johnrossstar can tell me that all I need to do is pick up a Bible and it will be so clear to me what the Bible says, that I will agree with you in everything you say. The fact of the matter is, the Bible is so vague, and can be interpreted in so many ways, if you put 100 different people who have never heard of the Bible before in a room to read the Bible, they would come out with 100 completely different sects of Christianity.
You people want us to believe in a god that is either too stupid to be clear and distinct when talking to humans, when he should know humans will get confused over what was said, or is intentionally being vague in order to confuse people. What kind of a god is that? But should I be surprised, when this god supposedly doesn’t want to show us modern people any miracles or any other proof he gave to other humans because “he wants us to believe based on faith only” or something? I don’t even know where to begin for trying to think of why God can’t produce more evidence he exists.
Obviously faith is not a reason to believe in something. Why not believe in the Flying Spahgetti Monster based on faith alone? Obviously we always have reasons for believing something. Evidence. Evidence God doesn’t want to show. It stretches the imagination to believe in such a god. Doesn’t it strike you at all like when you try and trick a kid by saying someone was just visiting, when you know they really didn’t? The kid always asks, where’s the proof, and then you have to try and come up with some reason for the hole you just dug for yourself? You know there’s no proof, but you have to come up with some BS to try and trick a kid that would never work on an adult. Except it works on adults when it comes to religion. :shrug:
You keep making excuses for why you think this makes sense, when I keep listing reasons why it doesn’t, which you have no answers for. Why do you choose to continue to believe?
You and John have a lot in common, you are both doomsday preachers. So you’re saying we should see proof we are in the end of times within 3 years? What do you expect to see? Would you disown your beliefs if it doesn’t happen? In science, we test the validity of theories based on the predictions they make. Doomsday preachers have a hit rate of exactly 0%. Those are terrible odds. What makes you think you are different than the others? Your calculations are not any more special. They calculated, too, and they thought their calculations were correct, just as you do. The fact is, you are guessing when Adam was created. *The Bible never said this.* Why you think it does is beyond me. What ever happened to the scripture that says, “No one will know the day or the hour,”? Is it because it doesn’t say year? So we won’t know the day or the hour, but we will know the year? Why?
We have human skeletons and cave paintings and artifacts that date back more than 6000 years. Humans were not created 6000 years ago. This is as clear a fact as the sky is blue, seriously. If you wanted to know the truth, you would know this, you would research it, you would dig into the specific details and science involved, ask experts questions, etc. but I’m not sure you or johnrossstar want to know they truth, it seems to me like all you want to do is stick to your beliefs no matter what, even in the face of evidence as clear as possible. I’m open to new beliefs. If you came to me with clear evidence for why I’m wrong, I will listen, and if it’s as clear as you say, I will agree. I just can’t understand why you can’t extend the same curtesy.