25. If the earth is 6,000 years old, how can we see stars more than 6,000 light years away?

This is a common question in youth groups across America, where about half of us still believe the Universe was created fewer than 10,000 years ago.

The problem in a nutshell is that light waves/photons travel at a known rate of 186,282 miles per second, and at that rate, it would take much longer than 6,000 years for much of the light we observe to reach earth. Light from our sun takes eight minutes to reach earth, and light from the nearest star takes about four years. It would take light from one side of our galaxy about 100,000 years to cross to the other side, and that’s just the local stuff. It takes 2.5 million years for light to reach us from the nearby Andromeda galaxy, and 13.5 billion years from the furthest observed galaxy.

If the Universe is only 6,000 years old, we shouldn’t be able to see anything beyond 6,000 light years… so why do we?

As a young Christian, the explanation I heard most often was that, “God wanted us to be able to enjoy the stars, so when he created the earth and the stars, he also created the light waves in-between!” I accept this explanation, but later realized that accepting this view also means accepting some pretty strange conclusions about our universe.

See that star?  It doesn’t exist.

I first realized there was a problem with this view while learning about one method astronomers use to measure large distances. The method works by observing a star that has recently gone supernova. When it does, it can emit as much energy as it did over its entire lifetime, resulting in a tremendous burst of light. Scientists figured out that if they multiplied the speed of light by how long it took this burst to illuminate nearby objects, they could calculate the distance between those objects, and they could also triangulate the distance from earth.

Traveling at 186,282 miles per second, light from a supernova takes several months to reach surrounding material.  The star went supernova in 166,000 BC.

The closest supernova we’ve observed in this way is in a nearby dwarf galaxy 168,000 light years away. It took the light several months to reach some surrounding gas and dust, proving that the distances were ginormous.

But, according to my creationist view, the event you see here never actually took place. That’s right, there was no supernova, no illumination of gases, not even the original star! It was all just a back-story that God weaved into the light waves between us and a star that never really was.

The problem with this view is that it implies that the entire history of our Universe is just a charade. The objects we observe within 6,000 light years are all real (their light had enough time to reach earth), but any images beyond that must be invented by God, to prevent us from just seeing empty space. But inventing stories about galaxies and exploding stars is akin to planting fossil evidence to make the earth look older than it is.

And if these light waves are solely for our benefit, then technically God doesn’t need to create the Universe at all. God only needs to create a few thousand years worth of light waves to create an illusion that it exists.

Christianity Evolves

In recent years, Young Earth Creationists (YECs) have backed away from this explanation. ChristianAnswers.net admits that forging an entire universe “would be a strange deception,” and AnswersInGenesis.org agrees that it would be “uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this.”

So… how did the light get here?

Distance = Velocity x Time (D = vt)

If questioning the Bible’s accuracy is off limits, we must seriously tweak either the Distance, Velocity, and/or Time involved in this simple equation.


AnswersInGenesis.org says that the distances astronomers are coming up with are “logical and scientifically sound,” and ChristianAnswers.net agrees that “There is good evidence that our own Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across.”  So there’s no disagreement here.

Velocity (The Speed of Light)

The idea that the speed of light once traveled much, much faster is an idea that has fallen out of favor with creationists, after realizing the speed of light is involved with every physical processes. AnswersInGenesis.org puts it this way: “The speed of light is not an ‘arbitrary’ parameter … changing the speed of light would cause other things to change as well.”


General relativity does allow objects that are closer to a source of gravity to move slower through time than objects that are further away, however, it would take an insane amount of gravity around the earth to cram 13.7 billion years of history into just 6 earth days. But since that’s our only hope, creationists are willing to give it a try.

Bitches love gravity wells.

Creationist and physicist Dr. John Hartnett suggests “universal time” sped up on the 4th day of creation, due to some 5th dimension caused by God stretching out the universe. (Hartnett admits that it took him several years to fully comprehend it, but I just don’t have that kind of time.)

D.R. Humphreys shares a similar view, which employs a finite gravitational well “near critical density.” He believes our entire universe is surrounded by water (based on Psalm 148:4) and that the earth is near its center. He also believes that earth’s time slowed to a crawl on the 4th day as God stretched out the Universe, allowing billions of cosmic years to pass in a mere 24 earth hours.

(You can watch Dr. John Hartnett and Dr. Russell Humphreys discuss their Bible-based views here.)

Either way, it would take a lot of gravity to make billions of years pass in just a few days.

Other variations on the time theme include:

1) a gravitational well that allows the cosmos to age millions of years for each earth year,
2) very liberal interpretations of the word “day” in Genesis, and
3) possible rifts in the space-time continuum left by Dr. Emmett Brown’s time travel experiments performed the mid 1980s.

The real heart of the matter

There’s really no reason to challenge the speed at which distant starlight travels, unless you’re trying to force the Universe to fit into a preconceived notion, and that’s what’s happening in this case.

AnswersInGenesis.org admits that creation scientists are still “researching solutions” to the distant starlight problem, but nevertheless they conclude, “The only way to know about the past for certain is to have a reliable historic record written by an eyewitness. That is exactly what we have in the Bible.”

CA.net echos this sentiment, saying, “By basing our scientific research on the assumption that His Word is true … our scientific theories are much more likely … to accurately represent reality.”

We can’t really address these creationist views without backing up a bit and examining the underlying assumption that the Bible is a reliable source of scientific information. So let’s take a quick look.

Science and the Bible

The Bible appears to be establishing its scientific authority without demonstrating any truly advanced scientific insight.

For example, if the Bible stated, “And God set the earth spinning on its side, and sent it circling around the sun every 365 days and one part of four,” we may have good reason for considering the Bible’s views on science, but it doesn’t even come close.

Instead, the Bible demands faith, and believers establish God’s credibility not through scientific prowess, but through things like prophecy, miracles, and personal revelations. So the YEC extrapolates from these other proofs that the six day creation must be true, because God has scored well in these other areas (or, at least, the YEC believes God has scored well).

While I can see the logic in this, we mustn’t jump to conclusions. We didn’t personally witness the miracles mentioned in the Bible, and is God is no longer parting seas or sending fire down from heaven. (But we can witness starlight, and measure the distance that it has traveled!) And prophecy is a very complicated issue, because there are many ways in which a prophecy can be made to appear impressive, sans miracles (such as being purposefully vague, or predicting an event after the fact). If God really can perform miracles and predict the future, then he should have no problem revealing scientific details about his creation.

Faith bias vs. Naturalist bias

Most creationists freely admit their Biblical bias. If evidence runs contrary to the Bible, it is always the evidence that must be reinterpreted (never the Bible).

We see a similar problem with Mormons and their “Book of Mormon bias,” which tells them that Native Americans are descendants of the Jews. Even when modern DNA evidence proved that Native Americans were of Asian ancestry (and they hadn’t so much as licked a Jew), Mormons insisted the evidence was wrong and must be reinterpreted. Their religious bias prevented them from seeing the obvious truth. (The LDS church now suggests that only some Native Americans were of Jewish decent, even though no Jewish DNA has ever been found.)

Creationists see nothing wrong with having a Biblical bias, because they know the Bible is true, just like Mormons see nothing wrong with their Book of Mormon bias, because they know it’s true. Likewise, Muslims see nothing wrong with their Qur’an bias, because they know it’s true, and Scientologists see nothing wrong with having a Dianetics bias, because they know it’s true. But do all these biases lead us to the truth? Obviously not, these religious biases are only fostering an illusion of having the truth.

AnswersInGenesis.org points out that scientists can also become biased by “naturalist assumptions.” It’s true that we are all biased, but the key difference between religion and science is that scientists attempt to arrive at conclusions by letting the evidence lead the story, rather than letting the story lead the evidence. And that story is never sacred, but is allowed to change as new information become available.

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, they don’t alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views.   — Dr. Who


With the huge difference between the amount of time scientists and creationists allow for the formation of earth, there must exist some good evidence to support one extreme or the other. I believe that distant starlight is just one such piece of evidence. We can observe the light now arriving from a distant galaxy, and know that it has taken more than 6,000 years to get here.

If the Bible were true, we might expect to see new stars coming into view each night, as their 6,000 year-old light finally reached earth. This is how science should be confirming the Biblical story. But when the evidence demonstrates otherwise, most scientists are not so stubborn that they would rather beat the evidence into Biblical submission rather than accept the obvious truth.

I have to conclude that our ability to view distant starlight strongly suggests the universe is very old. If it is not old, then God has deceived us with an elaborate and contrary illusion. And why would God lie?

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361 Responses to 25. If the earth is 6,000 years old, how can we see stars more than 6,000 light years away?

  1. The light says:

    Be careful!! Science was first created to claim that the Bible is lying. The Bible did not provide any calculations about the stars. Therefore you can’t quickly jump into conclusion that God is lying. The millennium of earth started clicking after Jesus was crucified. It means that mankind have 7 millennium to repent and to accept God and his doctrines. And we are in the last millennium. This has nothing to do with age of the earth. There was an eternity before Genesis1:1. Something happen in that eternity which cause the earth to be deformed and dark. That event is when Satan went from being Lucifer ( the most beautiful, the most lovable angel that could live on both earth and the sky) to Satan the devil ( with envy and greediness). Right now Satan own the world therefore he control what science can and can do and show. The Big Bang theory is a lie. The science of revolution is a lie. Science stated that we evolve over time. Then explain why do they have a museum all about the garden of Eden and its entity. Satan control everything. The media, the schools, the government and so on. While we as human are looking for the truth science is working night and days to find things that can destroy us all. Hint: ebola. All diseases are man made in a laboratory. And all these diseases already have a cure. If science is lying stating that AIDS, HIV, and Cancer are incurable, what else are they lying to you?

    • tp70000fun says:


    • sklyjd says:

      You claim “Be careful!! Science was first created to claim that the Bible is lying.”
      Evidently the early pioneers in modern science were men of deep Christian faith. The first astronomer of the scientific revolution was Copernicus who believed God was personally responsible for all the activity in the heavens.

      You claim “And we are in the last millennium.”
      The earth has been supposed to end back in 66–70 CE and hundreds of other times since and the odds are you will be wrong also.

      You claim “Right now Satan own the world therefore he control what science can and can do and show.”
      You are saying that Satan owns the world and is in control of the scientists and what they do. I thought you guys agreed that God was the almighty and most powerful so does this mean God is not in complete control and losing his grip and our world will be taken over by Satan and therefore make him the new boss or a sort of god?

      You claim “While we as human are looking for the truth science is working night and days to find things that can destroy us all.”
      On the contrary, I think scientists have discovered quite a bit to keep us living longer lives than at any time in the past plus many other wonderful things in not just medicine but everything else on the planet. I bet even you have had some sort of inoculation injection or had a medical problem treated with medicine of some sort during your life.

      You claim “All diseases are man-made in a laboratory.”
      I am 100% sure that destroying the human race with disease is not the agenda of the scientific communities. I do agree that they have discovered many things that can destroy us, however they have discovered many vaccines for pandemics and other diseases that have threatened human life.

      You should consult the internet to learn about this simple common knowledge stuff before you rush into print?

      • vivakats says:

        thank you for shedding light on “the light’s” ignorance and fear-based comments.

      • Anonymous says:

        Scientist do not believe in god.We cant Se GOD AS MUCH AS WE CANNOT C OXYGEN YET WE BREATHING.SCIENTIST CANT FIGURE OUT THE PYRAMIDS.GOD IS IN CONTROL.THE BIBLE GIVES US FREE WILL.if u believe everything in Science please go to the Zoo and C if The Monkeys Can talk.Science can only cum so far Than GOD STEPS IN.as much as we Obey other laws THERE’S LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE N I DONT THINK SCIENTIST ARE IN CONTROL OF IT.We also not present when We Are told about what is On the moon whn astronauts Land there…

        • sklyjd says:

          Your “zoo and monkeys” comment I believe is quite typical of someone who has given up on rational thinking, logic and evidence based truth.

          From your comments you appear to not believe man has landed on the moon, you think the scientists are wrong about evolution and the universe. Therefore, I would expect you are also a climate change denier and I expect you may also believe the world is full of corrupt scientists with sinister agendas to destroy your religion.

        • R DelThane says:

          With the right microscope you can see oxygen. And with the right knowledge you can see that the Bible is ancient man trying to interpret the beautiful and frightening world around them. A sudden plague, must be that a god is angry, not a bacterial outbreak because some people didn’t know how to preserve food properly. A sudden drought, another angry god, not a change in weather patterns. A man has many wives and children, must be a blessing from a happy god, not his personal charisma and wealth.

          The stories in the bible are just that, stories. They teach some great lessons about being good to your neighbors, your friends, your family, and they set the foundation for many of the laws of our society. But like like how the Law must always be updated to stay with the times and technology, so to must the interpretation of those stories. At best they are history of ancient man, but like the children’s game of telephone, one MUST remember that what we read may NOT have happened exactly like it is stated. Remember that the Bible was not even written down untill long after Jesus died.

          So look to the sky, and see the the same stars that our ancestors looked at, shining down on us from both so far awawy and so long ago, and remember that man is flawed, science is still learning (and always will be), and that our ancestors didn’t know everything eather!

    • Anonymous says:

      Okay, I understand somewhat of what you are saying but God is not subject to the laws of light magnitude, nor gravity, nor any universal laws but instead all laws are subject to God.

  2. Lesego says:

    To find the truth about creation and God himself do not focus only on the old testament but new to revelations. The bible itself is arguing about what’s written and critically I’d say everything is just a myth.

    And looking at science, everything that is said is backed up by evidence and that makes sense for everyone to believe it.

    • vivakats says:

      It boggles my mind that so many people still think the Earth is only 6000 to 10000 years old or so. Sheesh. I am traveling in Arizona and just saw the Grand Canyon yesterday. The info and literature and plaques everywhere make it clear that there are 12000 years of human history in that area and that the canyon took a Whoooooooooole lot longer than that to form. How anyone can insist that it was recently formed or didn’t take very long must be delusional. The same applies to Death Valley and many other places.

  3. Tom Waggoner says:

    The old earth theory of creation was prevalent among evangelistic churches in the 1950s. Their Bible still teaches the ages-old creation of the earth. Early Christian writers also believed in an ages-old earth. Genesis 1:2 is not an account of the creation of the earth, it is a description of an already created earth. Science atteste to the truths of the Bible.

  4. Michael Stine says:

    Great Scott, some people still haven’t noticed the reference!!

  5. Michael Stine says:

    Obviously this is satire. The author cited Dr. Emmet Brown’s time travel experiments in the 80’s.

    Back to the Future.

    God, if you people are going to swallow everything someone else puts in your mouth, come here and let me show you some things.

  6. Anonymous says:

    There need to be no conflicts between faith and science…I understand science to be man’s best effort(s) to understand God’s creation. When faith and science are in what seems to be conflict, it is incumbent on us to reevaluate our interpretations of what Scripture is intending to communicate as well as determine whether the science has an obvious bias, intent on discounting the role (or even existence) of a Creator-God. It should also be noted that the Bible was not written to be read as a science book. As a matter of fact, it was written pre-science. It seems to me that it would be cavalier and foolish to discount God as the Creator and the Bible as NOT TRUE just because some Christians choose to believe a YEC model. Many other Christians accept to believe an OEC model that allows them to live in harmony with most of accepted science. To conclude, I think the article was pretty-well written but I am concerned about how it ends with , “If the Bible is true…”. The move to the conclusion that the Bible is NOT TRUE because you don’t agree with just one of many models used to explain the Genesis account, puts you in (what I would suggest) is an indefensible position.

    • Suck it! says:

      The reason the bible doesn’t read like a science book is because it was written by people who had 0 understanding of the true nature of their reality. It’s completely contrary to what we understand about the universe today. They literally thought that the world was flat, and that the stars would fall from the sky upon the second coming of Christ. “And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.” -Mark 13:25
      What do stars look like to you? What would happen if the earth got as close to the sun as say… VENUS! What does Venus look like to you? Does it like an adiquate habitat for life on earth? Nope. While doesn’t necessarily disprove the existence of *A* god, it certainly makes it clear that it is not *YOUR* god. Besides, I wouldn’t need Jesus to forgive me if the god of Abraham wasn’t completely inept. I could do a much better job at the whole god thing.

      • No says:

        Perhaps the most sensible comment i’ve seen. While ostensibly an atheist, i cannot conclusively discount a deist god….. but can with absolute certainty dismiss all Earthly religions as bullshit, based on facts and the PROVABLY wrong ramblings of desert nomads.

  7. Anonymous says:

    The Bible says God can’t lie

    • sklyjd says:

      He can kill, so why can’t he lie?

      • Robert Jones says:

        Killing and lying are two non related actions. What God creates he has the right to destroy. All his actions are just. We are commanded not to murder. Killing in a war or self defense is not murder. God makes all the rules he does not need to prove or justify his actions so he has no reason to lie. The journey through the bible reenforces his truth. Each time he says he will do something he does it and things come to pass which he foretold. The real lie I’d the decietfulness of our own hearts and how quickly we gobble up the lies of the evil one and those he has deceived. Put away your pride humble yourself seek him with an open mind and a contrite heart.

        • sklyjd says:

          Killing is quite a lot more serious I might add. God has done plenty of killing outside of war because it is not war when you decide you do not like the way some people behave so you decide to have the whole city butchered.

          He also killed many animals and humans with a plague, never mind the babies. He also commanded others to slaughter brothers, friends and neighbours and the list goes on into the thousands.

          I do not buy the fact that because you create something you have the right to destroy it. An object you invented maybe but not if it involves destroying people’s lives for the sake of it and just because you can.

          Someone who kills another person or many people for any reason today would be explained by many religious people as been taken over by the devil, therefore so was God many times.
          I do not gobble up lies of any evil entity and I am not deceitful just because the Bible says so, but you can feel free to do so.

          If you could snap out of your indoctrination (almost impossible I know without help) and then you would have what truly is an open mind.

          • samadams1776 says:

            Well, the thing is as CREATURES we cannot (outside of sexual reproduction) create life and that process is God’s too. We don’t own ANYTHING; God does. God owns the entire universe and all that is in it. YES God can destroy the entire universe or anything in it.

            It is HIS right and His alone–The reason MURDER is sinful is that without God’s leave you killed HIS property. God has already GIVEN us leave to defend our lives with deadly force (if needed) or to defend nations with force. And God does not take our lives capriciously. Uzzah’s life was taken by way of example for disobedience. It was forbidden to touch the ark. His motives mattered not.

            the ark was not being carried as it was required to. It was mounted on a cart and was going to tip into the mud. He went to stop it from falling off the cart (which it was not supposed to be on) and he was killed, instantly upon touching it.

            God did not want man’s sinful hands touch what was essentially the throne of a Holy being. He defiled the God’s Throne.

            • sklyjd says:

              “He defiled the God’s Throne” So what? A throne is something he puts his arse on and this poor bastard Uzzah touched it and had to die….and you worship this so called god?

        • Trollhunter says:

          So the infanticide of thousands of Egyptian children is Okee Dokee? I mean these were children, non combatants. They had nothing to do with keeping the Jews captive yet they were the ones killed. And Christians want to separate their religion and their Holy Book from Islam and the Koran!

        • sklyjd says:

          God murdered lots of people, read about it in your Bible if you dare.

    • Suck it! says:

      He lied about being omnipotent. Omnipotence has some prerequisites, you this right? Omnipresence for instance, god claims he is everywhere and everything and yet he wasn’t there to prevent a poorly designed rib-girl from eating from a poorly placed tree? He claimed to be omniscient (all-seeing and all-knowing, with the power of future sight as weell) but couldn’t see that Eve was going to eat from the tree’s fruit. He didn’t even have the foresight and common sense to put some sort of obstruction barring Eva’s access to the gate.. Even an idiot would know to put a gate up or something. Even YOU would know better, YOU would put a fucking gate. Don’t lie to me and tell me you wouldn’t, because you fucking WOULD. And even create a talking snake? Did the creater of all the known universe really get the wool pulled over his eyes by an animal? Use your brain, C’MON SON.

      • samadams1776 says:

        Yes, he knew. He did NOTHING to stop it. He gave them free will. They (man) were made sinless but chose sin. He did not stop that and from infinity into the past (well, technically God exists outside time and space–Time and Space are creations–this is precisely WHY God is omniscient an omnipresent.) he knew and therefore always had a plan for redemption.

        God NEVER interferes with our free will. And the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a metaphor, not an actual tree. The serpent (story does not actually say snake) is also a metaphor. While there are many historical events in the bible, these aspects are metaphors. 1 Kings and 2 Kings and other scripture are more historical in nature (Daniel, Isaiah though both also have prophecies as well–that now all have BECOME history)

        They (Adam and Eve probably also metaphorical and with both sexes being represented) were tempted with “Being like God,” but NOT in the right way–but relating to POWER. It was arrogance and desire for power over others that was original sin.

        Sam Adams

        • sklyjd says:

          It makes no sense. If God already knew man would sin what was the point of it? And if he didn’t know why the hell did he set them up to sin? It seems like a lot of trouble with Jesus and the unneeded death and destruction to people he caused. I can only imagine he wanted to show off his power to sinners through violent means and hang the guilt of sin around the neck of all humans so that we would basically have to be forced to worship him to go to heaven. Man in this respect is never free and I now understand how this falls in line with his views on slavery in the Bible.

          • randomconfuseddude says:

            The more i look into this stuff, the more convinced that man is just some pawn or experiment going on between God (I am 100% convinced about some Saints and since they believed in God, i’m just extrapolating my belief) and Satan. We think He created us, blessed us, punished us, blah blah… whereas there are a million and one reasons to argue and counter argue most of what we know about the bible, creation, evolution and what not.
            What if we are some grand experiment to prove something… hence the free will, death, diseases, religion, miracles, stigmatas, hatred, famine, evil, good etc.. cause no matter how much we continue wrapping our heads around it, we still cant seem to make 100% convincing arguments for either side of the debate.

            • sklyjd says:

              I agree, if you allow yourself to speculate into the unknown it is very difficult to understand never mind trying to discover any evidence, facts or truth.

              Simply, you either believe in the supernatural world or you don’t. The Bible and most religious scriptures and artefacts as far back when man first walked the earth try to combine the real physical world with stories of gods, deities and devils and if you listen to them it is confusing and you end up with the completely impossible and the ridiculous events that even theists cannot agree on.

              The supernatural and any other theological world exists only within a person’s head. There is no substantial evidence of gods, demons, fairies, trolls, angels and ghosts existing outside of the powerful organ we do not yet understand, the brain. In fact, we have as much if not more evidence that aliens may have visited the earth.

          • samadams1776 says:

            Ok. Clearly you have a lot of animosity toward God and you wish to blame him for evil. He is not to blame. Let’s start at the beginning.

            1. God is omnipresent. Time and space are creations for US. God (other than in the form of Christ) is outside time and space.

            2. God is omnipotent. THAT does NOT mean that God can force a contradiction; He cannot. God can create beings and even very powerful beings, but god cannot create another God. One attribute of a God is that such a being does not owe its exitence to another being, so God cannot create God anymore than God can force a contradiction to be true. The Law of Non-contradiction applies even to God.

            God gives us free will. Yes he could see we would sin but to stop it, then he can not allow us to live. Instead, He gave us a path of redemption. Evil exits because anything outside God’s plans and ordinations are evil. Simplistic explanation, but I am trying to reduce this. Man chooses evil and suffers the consequences. Make no mistake–No one is innocent. Obviously there are people not guilty of specific offenses (say murder, or an act of terrorism) but no one is free from the consequences of evil either generally or to specific acts by perpetrators of specific evil.

            When every person’s knee bends and submits each of their wills will to His, it will end. But man will not bend his knees. Blame God all you want, but if you want to see the real source (well, one of the sources) of evil, look in a mirror.

            God did not create us that way. We chose that. God was under no obligation to send a savior, but He did.

            Believe what you want. You have free will, like everyone else.

            • sklyjd says:

              You are wrong, I do not have animosity toward any gods because I am an atheist and obviously I am only discussing a hypothetical god that you actually believe exists.

              How do you know that the Christian God who I assume you mean cannot create another god? What are God’s plans that you mention because evidently the 20,000 plus innocent children that die every day from malnutrition and disease are supposed to be part of that plan but nobody can tell me what this plan actually is supposed to achieve?

              We are all choosing evil you say and to see a source look in the mirror to see it. I really think you are getting a bit too carried away with what you have been told or what you read in an ancient book written by questionable people with superstitious beliefs and minimal knowledge of the natural world.

              The mind is such a powerful organ, if you have a firm belief and you have emotional feelings behind it you will attract what you think about. God becomes a reality to people who want this belief, this is how indoctrination happens and why your God is so real to you.

          • Trollhunter says:

            I think it goes a bit deeper. The entire religion is based on a story in which a woman is the real villain. It’s completely Patriarchal in nature. It has also sown the seeds of racism throughout history.
            I keep thinking along the same lines as you. If God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent, why? If we are to believe God is a real entity then we need to accept the fact that Humankind is nothing more than a social experiment by a deity. But if Omnipotent, what was even the point of the experiment. The outcome would have been know.
            My conclusion is that it’s all bunk. Thousands of pieces of ancient script, gathered up, edited and finally approved for publication by a Protestant King.
            The entire thing is designed to prevent men from free thought, it has been the the provocateur of millions of deaths, hundreds if not thousands of wars and the stagnation of entire civilizations that cling to an un-provable theory that life on earth was created 6K yrs ago by a God that replaced thousands of Gods before him. I’d say science has already accomplished proving the nonexistence of a fictional being. If by no other means than what this article outlines. To put it succinctly, what creationists believe is simply impossible.
            Please don’t let my comment dissuade you from contributing your money to Ken Hamm’s new Ark Park in KY. or to Pat Roberts multi million dollar mansion, or any of the other religious hucksters panhandling on cable TV. God needs your money.

      • the505 says:

        I’ve come to the conclusion that whether you believe in God/gods or not, we don’t actually have free will. Unless you believe that our behavior and decisions are random or occur in a vacuum, then in any decision the available information is considered and the “best” choice is selected (“best” in quotes because it depends on how the question is framed, the desired outcome, and understanding of the problem). So if you could rewind to any decision point, if ALL the conditions were the same, then the same choice would be selected time and time again. In that sense, what we call “free will” is a term to describe how we feel and how we think things should be, rather than how they really are. e.g., It feels like I have freedom of choice, so it must be true?

        That means that an omnipotent and omniscient being that created everything knew exactly how it would all play out (including my writing these words). If you agree and you believe in God, then you are safe to say that it is all part of God’s plan, but you can’t honestly then believe in free will. If you disagree, doesn’t that mean that God could be surprised by our choices, and is thus not omniscient? And if you don’t believe in God or gods, then you can focus on the processes and conditions that lead to certain decisions to try to achieve some purpose.

        • Same Adams says:

          Not going to bother responding to the issue of free will, Beyond saying that Free Will is merely a choice between either competing Goods competing Evils or between Good and Evil. And I’m certainly not going to address what is good and what is evil. I’m much more interested and the idea of omniscience and omnipotence.

          It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that because all sorts of things that we disapprove of in terms of people suffering evil either by natural disaster or by people, fetty the God does not exist or is not empowered with the characteristics of omniscience and omnipotence. Man has made it quite clear that he wishes to manage this world himself and as a result God has chosen to allow this knowing full well the consequences of that, since he has actually warned us. And some individuals don’t think that there should be some sort of consequence for not following his rules which as creator of absolutely everything in the universe is certainly entitled to enforce. And for some it is on this basis that they deny God’s existence.

          In addition omnipotence does not mean being able to do contradictory things. One simple example would be that God cannot create another God. This is because one of the principal characteristics of being God is that he does not owe his existence to another being. If God creates a being, then this created being having a starting point, by definition, regardless of how powerful it is, can not be God, being a created thing. Before God cannot resolve a contradiction that is a true contradiction and not merely an apparent one.

          God cannot stop being God, that is, he cannot change his nature.

          And God having created the entire universe and everything in it before owns everything in it including us and has the authority and the right to dispose of the entire creation as he so chooses. This appears to be some issue for many many people or that he has some obligation to prevent harm or disaster. He is a good God but we are in Rebellion against him and he is allowing us suffer the consequences of self-management which he has warned us against from the beginning of creation, regardless of how about creation was accomplished.

          Maybe we should just dump our pride and be more compliant.

          • sklyjd says:

            Same Adams. The same old God of omniscience and omnipotence is trotted out on a regular basis and this is more ridiculous than seeing nothing from this supposed to be creator. He shows his lack of power, he shows his lack of love and he shows most of all his lack of existence.

            It is easy to claim such nonsense because of Biblical passages that were written by men of dubious origins decades and centuries after the events. It is also ridiculous to jump ahead of yourself and claim God does not owe his existence to another being when you first need to provide evidence that God exists and that he is truly the god of creation, don’t you think? Anyway, you claim a god came from nothing. This Is the normal theist argument against the big bang, so what is your explanation?

            You claim also that we are in rebellion against God. Well, are we all not supposed to be born sinners so what does he expect. The world would be a far more peaceful place without all these claims from conflicting religions demanding theirs is the real god and claims that everyone outside of their ideology is doomed to die in pits of fire.

            Yes, this world is in rebellion against all gods but your god or any other god does not have a solution and I bet they never will.

  8. How says:

    Read the sequence of events in Genesis. Anyone that believes star already existed means implies that Genesis is not Genesis because is not the beginning of creation?. Bible does not lie. Genesis is Genesis. Day is not liberal because there is no day before light. When God created light then there is day. Some claim that there is a gap between creating Universe and Earth. That is false since there was no light; no light means no stars before first day, since first day is defined by existence of light and dark.

  9. Tom says:

    You know why we should trust Science and not God ? Science changes view all the time, but God, if he even exists, is cleary not giving two shits to humanity.

  10. John Jarrell says:

    If the creation story of the Bible had been explained to the people of that time in the terms of physicists of this time no one would have believed a single word of it. It’s hard to understand how that can be overlooked by people of faith that have knowledge available that we have today. I don’t understand how one can not get that science does not minimize God in any way. On the contrary it reveals him to be beyond our imaginings. Peace love and understanding to all.

  11. DV says:

    A day is 24 hours. The creation account in Genesis took seven days to reveal to Moses. That is how it reads. It is perfectly agreeable to our understanding of science, really scarily close. The creation story is a story of 7 days of revelation. Try and read again.


  12. danld says:

    since god knows what he will do in the future he cannot have free will to do anything differently.his whole future existence is “written in stone”

  13. Geoff says:

    Genesis says that in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. That was the beginning of the physical creation. The 6,000. Years of man’s history began in 4026 BC. Animal’s & vegetation were created before that. Read the genesis account. The earth has been here for billions of years & nowhere does the Bible contradict that. The days spoken about in the Bible are periods of time like my father’s day which was about 42 years.

  14. Russ says:

    God is much more powerful than human mathematics. You are proving it by your own words. When God created the heavens and earth – and then said let there be light. It was instantaneous. Do you really think that God waited around for trillions of years for light to appear. No, it appeared instantly or at slowest, that day. The light rays from distant galaxies were created in whole, and shown on the earth at God’s command. The magnitude of God’s power is beyond what can be measured. Making something from nothing, the beginning, is what I would like the evolutionary to explain. For matter can neither be created or destroyed, right?

  15. Martin says:

    I really don’t understand why the age of our Earth/Universe matters to Christians. The Bible says “to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day”. So how can we claim to understand time when the God we believe in seems to have no concerns about time.

    The time of creation is irrelevant. What matters, is we were all created. Wether it was the big bang or 6 earthly days.

    God did it!

  16. John777 says:

    Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days, and years.
    Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, he made the stars also. 17. And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,

    Here are the answers to your questions:
    We live in a closed system. There are no light years! No Universe! No Space!
    The earth is round and flat with a crystalline dome firmament above.
    Its so simple…..God is right here above us.

    If we lived on a globe earth where did the vast amount of water come from for the great flood? where did it go? In the closed system model God opened the waters above and filled up the enclosure up to the highest peak, then drained it to the waters below.
    Its so simple…..God is right here above us.

    • sklyjd says:

      You have to be joking? Well I hope so because what you say is nothing but fantasy and not at all possible and I would expect if you do believe your claim that you are the only one on this planet that does.

      • John777 says:

        Sklyjd, you are quick to say its not at all possible! How would you know that for sure? What proof do you have? The furthermost star we can see with the naked eye is Cas at 16308 light years away! That is 154 000 000 000 000 000 km away! Sirius is only 8.6 light years away which would make it appear 125 million X smaller than our Sun in the sky! How can you see that with the naked eye? None of this at all possible unless they are close by in the firmament. Maybe you should do a little research and find out where you actually live!

        • sklyjd says:

          I know where I live John. I am also no expert on astronomy, however I understand scientists have not given much thought to your ideas, and why do you think that is?

          For a start the earth cannot be flat because logic tells us you would fall off the side, right? We are in a closed system you say but not one scientist has discovered this dome you mention, therefore are you claiming this is a conspiracy by all the thousands of scientists?

          Are you also saying this is a conspiracy by NASA, European Space Agency and the other satellite launching sites around the world? And if so for what reason would that be?

          The fact is, there was no such thing as the Biblical great flood. Rain can cause flooding and this is water that form into droplets that have condensed from atmospheric water vapour and then precipitated and become heavy enough to fall under gravity but it does not drain off anywhere outside our planet.

          This is the best excuse I have ever heard to justify a god, and I thought young earth Christians were “out there”.

          I think you should do a little research and find out what reality actually is.

          • John777 says:

            Hi Sklyjd. The ball earth theory has only been around for a little over 500 years. You cannot fall off the side because there is no side as such. The south pole is a full 360 degrees ice wall as discovered by Admiral Byrd. see video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcxraxCQCd0. When the astronauts were asked to put their hand on the bible and swear to God that they walked on the moon they either ran away or threw a punch – I need say no more….
            I suppose you believe in the Big Bang Theory? From nothing suddenly we have the universe and DNA?
            I used to have the same beliefs as you and once I started looking into the flat earth model I found it impossible to debunk. Its so much easier to debunk the spinning ball earth.
            Michelson-Morley proved in 1887 that the earth was stationery. That same experiment has been replicated today with the same results. Einstein had to invent the Theory of Relativity to get earth ‘spinning’ again! Watch this movie with an open mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SlRsbQ3nfM

      • Timotheus says:

        Not so, the flat Earth theory is a growing belief among intelligent free thinking Bible believers and can be scientifically backed. It’s not as silly as you think. I had to unlearn 37 years of indoctrination by the government, public school (same thing) and the entertainment industry (same thing as well). Open your mind and open your Bible! Do some personal research. I too am convinced that our Earth is flat, enclosed in a dome and surrounded by water. The starry host is close to us.

        • sklyjd says:

          The flat earth is not supported by science. I have seen the YouTube videos and the many other conspiracy theories concocted to fit in with the ancient Biblical stories. Do you not realise you have been conned by religious activists who realised they had to invent a radicle idea to keep religion alive and keep believers like you sucked in to keep the people and cash rolling into the churches, and there are no such people as free thinking Bible believers?

  17. Dralia says:

    The question doesn’t even make sense! Even if earth were created yesterday, why wouldn’t we see light originating from thousands of years ago? I can’t believe that many people are stupid enough to conceive such a question. IDK why you even bothered answering it, it’s self-evidently incorrect.

    • Hi Dralia,

      Did you understand that light takes time to travel from one place to another? Just like you hear lightning before you see it, a burst of light taking place 1000 light years away would take a thousand years to reach your eyes. If this burst happened yesterday, and the world were created yesterday, we wouldn’t see this light for 1000 years.

      However, built into your comment seems to be the presumption that the light from these stars existed before the earth was created. If that were the case, we might see it, but this is not how the creation is described in Genesis.


  18. craig says:

    The earth is not 6000 years old. So the question leads you wrong right away.
    Think about it people Dinosaurs are a diverse group of animals of the clade Dinosauria that first appeared during the Triassic period. Although the exact origin and timing of the evolution of dinosaurs is the subject of active research,[1] the current scientific consensus places their origin between 231 and 243 million years ago.

  19. dovelike says:

    That’s easy to answer. There is no such thing as light years. Light doesn’t travel! It is instantaneous. The whole picture of the universe as “taught” by the world is a deception.

  20. dovelike says:

    To add to my previous comment where I said that light is instantaneous. I will prove it simply. Imagine that you are in a little room composed entirely of mirrors. Imagine that you have a torch, and add any amount of voltage to it that you like. Make it a zillion volts if you like (just to be sure for this imaginary experiment). Now turn it on pointing it to one of the mirrors. Then turn it off. Did you notice? It is all dark again! Now, if light travels, then you should still see the light reflecting in the mirrors! But what happened? (You already know what must happen and you do not even have to conduct this experiment in reality.) The light vanished the moment you turned your torch off, proving that light does not travel for even a single second.

    Now for another logical deduction. The light of the sun, moon and stars are not even a light second away. And what does this mean? It means all that you have been told about the universe by the “academic” world is trash, and all the pictures of an alleged universe wherein the earth is but a small object is totally fake. Now get this, please. It means that the sun, moon and stars (including the planets) are only smaller objects than the earth and are only a few thousand miles above the earth (just as the earth is “only” a few thousand miles in diameter). Otherwise they would be too far away to be seen or to light the earth in the manner in which they do.

    This is beyond reasonable doubt. And is such a simple deduction to make. However, you live in a world of complete brainwashing and lies; so that such a simple deduction may be hard to grasp. The earth is an almost perfect sphere (yes, the earth is round), in the exact middle of a spherical universe (or that is to say, it is surrounded by the heavens above); and the heavenly bodies are held up by a field of force unknown to earth (because it doesn’t reach the earth), and that force is also causing the heavenly bodies to move from east to west daily.

    Also, just to point out more strongly and simply that the earth is fixed and does not rotate. In the idea of a rotating earth, the atmosphere must be rotating at the same speed along with the earth. Otherwise you could hover in a helicopter and watch the earth spin beneath you. But it is also easy to see that the earth cannot be rotating, by simply observing the wind. The winds prove that the atmosphere does not rotate along with the said “rotating earth”. Notice. The earth is still or motionless beneath your feet, while the winds course through the sky in all directions; for even thousands of miles. Winds can travel for thousands of miles as evidenced (for example) by sands travelling from one continent to another (as the Saharan desert sands). And such winds are travelling in the OPPOSITE direction of the said (and falsely believed) “rotating” earth. The earth cannot therefore be rotating, because the atmosphere is most clearly not in sync with such an imagined “rotating” earth.

    Moreover, if you look at the night sky, you will see that there are thousands of stars. You will not see more than thousands of stars. There is no evidence of anything more than thousands of stars and a few wandering stars called planets. But you might say, what of all those telescopes picking up all those alleged millions and billions and trillions of stars? One: they are fake images. Two: even if possibly, people may be genuinely picking up images of something more than thousands of stars, they are not images of stars. The “milky way” or the mist-like appearance streaking across the night sky are not stars. They are only fragments of stars. Why? Because God made the stars to be visible to us. Therefore the great majority would not be invisible (for otherwise it would defeat the purpose of their existence as stated in Scripture). Thus, what may be observed in a telescope (if possible), is not a “galaxy” or “galaxies”, but mere debris of destroyed stars. Therefore they might falsely assign vast distances and vast sizes to mere rubble, that is closely packed together, when looking through a telescope. That’s what they are doing, if in any case it might possibly be true that there are any genuine images that seem to suggest more than thousands of stars.

    Richard Paulson.

    • Your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. No mirror perfectly reflects 100% of light, and a small amount of light is absorbed or passess through a mirror every time the light reaches it.

      • samadams1776 says:

        Ok. This MUST be a joke. But int he event this is actually serious, let us talk.

        1. Light is a form of electromagnetic wave similar to radio waves except that the wavelength of light is considerably shorter. For example a radio frequency of say 50 of say 50 megacycles per second (Megahertz) has a wavelength of 6 meters. In order to understand how antennas radiate and how electromagnetic fields propagate down the cavity, one must work with retarded potentials to account for the finite speed of light or significant errors can be introduced.

        2. Light waves are typically measured in nanometers. A nanometer is 1E-9 meters. That is an abbreviation for 1 times 10 raised to the -9 power. Fiber optics carry such wavelengths though those are outside the visible spectrum. We see the frequencies we do because the rods (sensitive only to the intensity of light) and cones (there are many sized cones ) sensitive to specific light frequencies. the formula relating wavelength and frequency is L=C/f; This means that wavelength equals the Speed of light / frequency sometime written as CT as 1/f equals T for time

        Typically in the metric system it is rounded off to 300,000,000 meters per second. The more exact figure is 299,792,458 meters per second which is about 186,282.3971 miles per second rounded off. What that means is that in 1 microsecond (one-one millionth of a second, a beam of light will traverse about 983.569 feet. You cannot distinguish the time of one microsecond.

        Where did you get the idea that light would forever bounce in a cavity (your mirror room) forever.

        1. Your light source is virtually isotropic and eve if it wan’t your light waves would be spherical and scatter in all directions.
        2. You’re being in the room and could only already speed up the energy absorption that would take place as the energy is absorbed and turned into heat as and becomes unusable energy as required by the laws of thermodynamics.

        I am guessing you have no actual knowledge of the mathematics necessary to understand the following fully needed to get it in it’s entirety: Calculus, Differential equations (including Bessel Functions), Complex Variable Analysis (sometimes called Calculus of Complex Variables or even just Complex Variables), Classical and Statistical Thermodynamics.

        Here is an idea of what I mean: http://my.ece.msstate.edu/faculty/donohoe/ece4333notes3.pdf

        Light works similarly but has much shorter wavelengths. You are out of your depth. And AS A CHRISTIAN, all truth IS GOD’S truth–though to be sure our our understanding is far from complete even in electromagnetics . Denying God’s truth is a sin and you are denying what is slapping you in the face. All our modern technology (radio, television, computer networks, lasers, transistors, etc..,) WORKS on the principles that SHOWS us the whole universe. It is an ENORMOUS universe and glorifies God. I suggest you (scientists too) read “The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science” by Conrad Hyers

        It affirms God but DENIES the Creation story is about the creation of the world except as a vehicle to explain a theological set of principles, 1: That the world (really the universe) was created and THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE WORSHIPED.

        One of the points it makes is that each of the 6 days of creation is a list of things in the natural world worshiped as deities and revealed to be mere creations and therefore only the creator of these things is deserving of worship. The story is just to make simple to the minds of the time that simple truth. There is an excellent introduction about an anthropologist who lived among tribes in New Guinea for some 25 years and becomes to the world an expert in the tribe through the stories they tell him that he translates from their (only) spoken language into English and then explains, only to eventually discover at the end of nearly 25 years there that he had understood the stories from an alien perspective; from a more sophisticated one with different concerns than that of the tribe. Likewise, we failed to understand the meaning of the text of Genesis because we did not understand the people for whom it was written. A lesson we all could learn from considering our individual as well as collective hubris.

        Returning to the subject of light: The photon is the force exchange particle of Spin 1. It is responsible for the propagation of electromagnetic fields (waves) and the so-called “virtual” photon is what is exchanged between charged particles or magnetic material that we therefor experience as a physical force that for example, allows us to build electric motors and generators.


        • dovelike says:

          (samadams1776) You have given a perfect example of the kind of language by which people are deceived. You state things as if they are fact and yet there is nothing proven. I am speaking of what is proven or provable with the simple use of a torch and mirrors, and of what is plainly observable. One does not have to be a mathematician to see what is plainly before one’s own eyes. And to say that I am out of my depth is not an answer and does not deny what I have said. There is no “depth” here for me to be into on this matter, because that “depth” you speak of is just another rabbit hole. (Alice in Wonderland)

          Look at this one statement that you have made. I quote you:

          “Where did you get the idea that light would forever bounce in a cavity (your mirror room) forever.”

          You should carefully read what I have written, for I did not say that light would forever bounce in a cavity of my mirror room forever. Listen. THE LIGHT WILL NOT BOUNCE IN A SEALED ROOM FULL OF MIRRORS ONCE YOU TURN YOUR TORCH OFF, FOR EVEN A SINGLE SECOND! AND THAT IS TRUE NO MATTER HOW MUCH POWER YOU GIVE TO A TORCH/LIGHT SOURCE. So it is not I who am joking, but the joke is being told that light travels, when the very simplest experiment (which anyone can prove for themselves) denies it. Think of sound in a cave. You speak and you can hear an echo after you stop speaking. So why isn’t it true of light in a sealed room made of mirrors? And why isn’t it true that even if you were to give any amount of power to a light source in such a small room, that THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT BOUNCING OFF THE MIRRORS FOR EVEN A SINGLE SECOND? It is thus preposterous to assert that light travels AT ALL.

          To say that light travels 186,000 approx. miles per second and yet is both so quickly “absorbed” (which being absorbed no one can demonstrate, by the way), and at the same time, is also instantly reflected (in my room full of mirrors), without being able to remain in existence for any length of time at all, is of course, nonsensical. Also, consider this, the light, if it has any endurance at all, should be increasing in intensity in a closed room full of mirrors, if your light source remains switched on. But that doesn’t happen because the light constantly ceases to exist after the moment it appears; however, you don’t see that cessation because it is being replaced constantly by the light source. And this is why the light remains constant.

          Moreover, I will show even more, how silly an idea this “light travelling” concept really is. How convenient for a scientist to declare that light in a vacuum of space will travel endlessly, but that this doesn’t actually happen in the atmosphere. (Not even in a little room full of mirrors? NOT EVEN LAST FOR A SECOND? How can I not laugh at that?) Yet no one can prove that light in a vacuum of space will just keep travelling on and on (provided it has the empty space to do so)! Just stating something doesn’t make it fact. But let me test this “hypothesis” with your imagination. Your imagination alone should be able to “see” how silly an idea this really is. Let us imagine a small light or lamp/torch the size of your thumb. Let us now put this light or lamp/torch into outer space where there is no atmosphere. Now, according to the idea of light travelling unhindered in outer space for the alleged millions and even billions of years, this tiny little torch will (according to their “thinking”) light up 186,000 approx. miles of empty space in a single second! Now, who must be joking?! How could such a little light, expand throughout space to cover many times the diameter of the earth, in a SINGLE SECOND? What incredible nonsense!

          You see, these scientists have to imagine into existence many things to make their ideas work. And even then, if examined carefully their ideas (such as these) do not pass basic logic.

          You also stated: “Denying God’s truth is a sin and you are denying what is slapping you in the face.” This is clearly a false accusation and nonsense! In what way have I denied God’s truth? I have asserted that light does not travel, and nowhere did God state that it does travel, except instantaneously. You assert your own version of “truth” without proof, and say that it is God’s truth. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that light travels in the sense of it not being instantaneous.

          I am not ignoring any facts “slapping me in the face”. What is actually slapping you in the face is the fact that every time you turn a light switch off, the light vanishes. Nowhere can you see light travelling, but the only evidence to your eyes is that it is instantaneous. Yet you call all the so-called scientific “concepts” which you can read off the internet and which requires faith to believe in, “God’s truth”. They are not God’s truth, they are the words of men which cannot be verified by yourself (or by anyone for that matter) at all.

          I really can’t see how any thinking person can get past what I have simply shared except by ignoring it.

          • samadams1776 says:

            Learn some science and ESPECIALLY learn some (advanced) mathematics. I suspect you come from a background with VERY low education or at best a “liberal arts” background, but I am dubious of even that. I don;t need to read anything off the internet, I am an Electrical Engineer, so I am EXTREMELY comfortable with the mathematics and physics i mentioned. I use those tools.

            I simply provided you with links to see what you would be looking at to have any hope of understanding how ridiculous your idea is that light travels instantaneously ANYWHERE. There is NO phenomena that has an interaction time of 0. You are either uneducated, lazy, or nuts or some combination of the three.

            And you are not worth any more of my time. I have more important issues regarding individual liberty and the Second Amendment to deal with.


            • This is the strangest argument I’ve seen on this site since I had to defend a spherical (i.e. not flat) earth.


            • dovelike says:

              Listen. So you have to resort to personal attacks because you cannot refute what I said. You say I am sinning because I say light is not travelling. That is perfectly idiotic. You are sinning in falsely accusing me. Everything you said is without sense, and my lack of higher “education” is that yes, I did not come out of these “higher” brainwashing mental institutions that can’t even tell that God exists, even though it is self-evident, and so I am actually able to think for myself. No one here has been able to refute what I have said, because I show how utterly stupid these so-called intellectuals are. They don’t think, they memorize like a parrot and spout of nonsense. They believe total trash, and can’t see what is plainly in front of their face.

              No I am not a nut, and by my writing I am obviously educated. By your writing anyone should see that you are not able to even clearly express yourself.

            • dovelike says:

              By possibly being “lazy” you must mean I am not going to spend endless hours listening to rubbish. That is not being lazy. I am just not going to believe the voluminous mass of UNPROVEN MYTHOLOGY YOU THINK IS SCIENCE.

          • sklyjd says:

            Light traveling is observable. Turn on a light in your house, the source is a light globe, where else can it come from and it travels so fast it appears to be instantaneous. Turn on a torch in the dark, where does the beam of light come from? Again only from the light globe in the torch that is obvious and observable but it moves so fast that an ignoramus cannot see it move and will claim some ridiculous religious crap.

      • dovelike says:

        Actually, no, my conclusion is not based on a faulty premise. Even IF mirrors do not 100% reflect light, they reflect a great amount as it is obvious by the fact that you can be blinded/your eyes hurt by a light reflected in a mirror! Besides, why believe what “they” say about light being absorbed? There is no way that can be proven! But even granting IF that unproven notion were true, if light could travel AT ALL, you would at least see light temporarily reflected in the mirrors (after switching off your torch) even with a weak light. And, with a light that has any given amount of power behind it, the light should remain reflected in the mirrors for a very considerable time at the very least, even if there was some “absorbing” going on. But what happens is that the light instantly vanishes. This means that light doesn’t exist for more than a moment. However, you do not see intermittent darkness when a light is “on”, because it is constantly being replaced with new light. Light as we observe it, reaches to a certain point, instantly, depending on the strength of the source. Thus, what the “academic” world teaches about light is completely false, as it is unproven by any method of observation, and requires therefore only “faith” (without evidence) to believe. Moreover, it is contrary to observable evidence, as I have shown that light being instantaneous, is simply proven.

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said. The Book of Enoch chapters 71 – 84 describes in detail the movement of the luminaries in the firmament. Only mere thousands of km above.

    • sklyjd says:

      Light travels at 299792458 metres per second, how do you expect to see anything with the human eyes in mirrors? We can put an exact figure on it is because the speed of light is measured in a vacuum and has been measured with lasers. Oh unless of course the thousands of scientists are lying about this.

      • dovelike says:

        Light IS seen in mirrors. Light is visible. But I am not talking about being able to see light travelling. I am saying that if light travels AT ALL, the light OBVIOUSLY should remain reflected in the mirrors after turning off your torch! Even the small sound of a voice in a cave can be heard for moments after one stops speaking. “Scientists” definitely lie (in some cases), or else are just feeding off lies from one another, believing what is not proven and loudly proclaiming their so-called “knowledge” throughout the world. People simply believe what they are told, because “scientists” make themselves “sound” credible. But I am not talking about you having to blindly accept anything. You can see with your own eyes the truth. Consider your own question again:
        “Light travels at 299792458 metres per second, how do you expect to see anything with the human eyes in mirrors?”
        Now, it is not I, but “they” which are claiming to be able to see light “travelling”? It is not possible by any method to be able to show that light travels, simply because even if it did, it would be too fast to tell how quickly it was going. Yet who has the nerve to say that he can tell specifically in meters how fast light travels (or the alleged 186,000 approx. miles per second)? I can have endless laughs about so many ridiculous claims such as this. After all, they are not God.

        • sklyjd says:

          Light is as you say seen in mirrors but it is still too fast to see anything such as any reflection lag. light moves much faster than sound at 332 metres per second such as the echo’s in a cave that you mention. Experiments using mirrors and other methods to measure the speed of light have been done since 1676, the details of the experiments are at this address and I suggest you find out some basic facts before you continue with such a non-scientific and amateurish theory.


          You appear to not be able to grasp the fact that the world’s top scientists are thousands of times more qualified than you or I and have nothing to gain but plenty of credibility to lose by lying to the public. Sure enough you will get the odd one trying to make a name for themselves with false claims, however because of the inspections and analytic systems that science uses before any discovery is accepted by the main stream scientists the frauds are soon exposed.

          Seriously, how can it be anywhere near possible that literally many thousands of top scientists, technicians from the United States and thousands more from around the world have been colluding in such a deception for over 50 years and none of them has stepped up to spill the beans and support exactly what you believe? Maybe the threat of death or a massive payment into a Swiss bank account perhaps?

          Why also has the Pope or the leaders of the Christian churches decided to not support your particular doctrine considering your claims are supposed to be represented within the bible?

          • dovelike says:

            The pope is evil, of course. Many so-called Christian leaders are fake.

            I am not an ignoramus. It seems incredible that so many so-called intellectuals are so incredibly stupid. The points I have made have not been addressed at all. This is all got to do with faith in Scientists or people that don’t want to believe in God and who deny the Word of God. Faith in these people makes people blind to sense. I can’t fathom why you can’t see what I am saying about light having to remain reflected in the mirrors. It is so obvious. And the other things I said that prove my points are ignored and nobody here seems to have the ability to grasp them. That is because of listening to insane, evil and foolish people that rule the education system.

            I think I will just have to give up returning to this site. I am sure I can answer all those 500 questions easily, but there is no need for me to bother.

            • sklyjd says:

              Light does travel because when the light globe is switched on the light must have come from this source. This is an obvious observation that children understand. If not, why do we have to turn on a torch if the light does not come from it, how does light happen instantly? Do the molecules that make up air have the electron capability to suddenly emit energy and light and how do they know when to do this instantly, is there an experiment?

              It is obvious that you can be either fanatical or resentful regarding everything discussed on this site. You make it clear that you resent scientists, call them liars and deny their greater knowledge, you also resent education which is unfortunate for you because that could have put you in a position with some credibility to argue your case, however without education and a liking for conspiracy theories nobody will give you the time of day.

              It is also obvious that you are a fanatical believer in the Christian God, however from your comments it appears you do not agree with most if not all Christian denominations considering you liken the Pope to the devil and Christian leaders as fake. I would hazard a guess and say you hate just about everything and everybody that does not aspire as you do to your extremist religious doctrine.

              To be clear, science and lying scientists were the catalyst to the invention of your computer, mobile phone and automobile not to mention thousands of other items used every day, but of course you would have decided that these are the work of your god.

        • samadams1776 says:

          No, not all light is visible. The electromagnetic spectrum is quite wide. The visible light spectrum is between about 400 and 750 nano-meters.

          If you understood the physics of lights, which at this point it is clear you do NOT, you would understand the effect of dielectrics (like air and the glass surface of the mirror) have on electromagnetic fields.

          James Clerk Maxwell was able to predict mathematically the speed of light. Of course these depend on the electric permittivity and magnetic permeability (space-time is actually made so something–it is REALLY stiff, but it can bend if the energies are right) of the medium that light travels in, in this case we use the values for the vacuum of space which are scalar values. in other mediums those might be tensor values as the values may not be isotropic (the same in every direction. But in the vacuum of space, it is. It is also isotropic in air, although there is a slight deviation from the values of a vacuum. The upshot is that in air, light travels slightly (VERY SLIGHTLY) slower than in a vacuum.

          Presumably you do not believe man have landed on the moon, but they did, and they left behind a special mirror to shoot a laser at and get a very accurate reading of the distance of the moon. Neither that nor radar would work if light traveled instantaneously.

          And quite frankly, if light was not absorbed, it really doesn’t matter whether or not the speed was instantaneous or not, the light would continuously reflect between the mirrors forever, which it does not as it is converted to atomic vibrations and heat.

          Also, Einsteins relativity would be wrong and we would not show mass increases with velocity and the conversion of mass to energy would be infinite at ANY amount of mass.

          You know, E=MC^2 If C is infinite, then ANY mass would contain infinite energy and you would now have a gravity well from which you could not escape. The entire universe would get sucked into a blackhole. You would have to deny:

          1. All the results of accelerators verifying the mass velocity relationship and therefore:
          2. Einstein’s Special relativity as well as
          3. Einstein’s General relativity (Theory of Gravity) which its numerous predictions have ALL been verified.
          4. Deny Maxwell’s electromagnetism
          5. Deny the laws of thermodynamics

          and lots more

          Really: read Conrad Hyer’s book! and take a science class!

          The universe is REALLY, REALLY ancient! God is way more incredible than you are giving Him credit for.

          • John777 says:

            Watch “The Principle” and maybe you will get some light on what is really going on and why Einstein had to invent Relativity.

          • dovelike says:

            So you think this is education? This is ALL utter mythology that you are so well versed in. It is no wonder you cannot grasp anything I am saying.

            There is no point arguing against everything you said here, seeing that you are not able to listen to nor see what I am plainly saying.

          • dovelike says:

            So you don’t entirely believe the Bible, obviously. You say that the universe is really ancient, taking that to mean it is much more than a little over 6000 years old. So it is you and not me that is denying God’s truth.

          • dovelike says:

            By the way, samadams1776, you are not giving God the credit in your false interpretation of Scripture, regarding creation, if indeed you believe that the Bible is a true record. I am not lacking in giving God the credit in any way at all.

            See how way off and irrelevant to my points this discussion has become? That’s called ignoring all I have said. I better stop.

  21. Ricky Ray says:

    I enjoyed reading this. However, one thing that has always baffled me is the question “when did time officially start?”

    Genesis 1:14-19 “Then God said, ‘Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the Earth’; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. …So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.”

    If we determine time based on the movement of planets and night and day is also based on the movement of planets, then did God not set the planets into motion on the 4th day? If not, then when I say “the 4th day” am I talking about a standard 24 hour day or does God operate on a different time scale? The Bible suggests that He operates outside of time, he is greater than time, He created time. It is impossible to fully understand God. He is all knowledgeable and knows things that our minds can not comprehend. Of course we learn more and more as time passes but it would take billions of years to reach the level of understanding that God is at.

    Revelation 4:1-11 “After the vision of these things I looked, and there before me was an open door in heaven. And the same voice that spoke to me before, that sounded like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit, and before me was a throne in heaven, and someone was sitting on it. 3 The One who sat on the throne looked like precious stones, like jasper and carnelian. All around the throne was a rainbow the color of an emerald. 4 Around the throne there were twenty-four other thrones with twenty-four elders sitting on them. They were dressed in white and had golden crowns on their heads. 5 Lightning flashes and noises and thunder came from the throne. Before the throne seven lamps were burning, which are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also before the throne there was something that looked like a sea of glass, clear like crystal.

    In the center and around the throne were four living creatures with eyes all over them, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion. The second was like a calf. The third had a face like a man. The fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of these four living creatures had six wings and was covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day and night they never stop saying:

    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.
    He was, he is, and he is coming.”

    9 These living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever. 10 Then the twenty-four elders bow down before the One who sits on the throne, and they worship him who lives forever and ever. They put their crowns down before the throne and say:

    11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    because you made all things.
    Everything existed and was made,
    because you wanted it.”

    God is mysterious! Surrounded by clouds and lightning, even His own angels wonder about Him and marvel at what they can’t comprehend and that is okay because one thing we DO know about God is that He is everything that is good. So God can make things happen that we can’t fathom how it was so; like stretch time so that light travels quicker relative to Him or maybe even operate on an entirely different time scale or none at all. We will never know what God knows and wouldn’t be able to comprehend it if He told us. So how dare we say that God is a liar just because our small minds can’t understand it. God is good and will always be good no matter what happened in the beginning, what’s happening now and what will happen in the future!

  22. Ricky Ray says:

    God is awesome.

    • sklyjd says:

      You have God’s system on day and night and your godly visions of God’s throne as clear as though you were there, you also say he is “surrounded by clouds and lightning” and claim that “even his own angels wonder about him and marvel at what they can’t comprehend.”

      You know all this as fact do you? You know a hell of a lot; in fact, you must know more about God than he does about you.

      Your claim “We will never know what God knows and wouldn’t be able to comprehend it if He told us. So how dare we say that God is a liar just because our small minds can’t understand it.”

      You are judging people; you say people have small minds for calling him a liar, well correct me if I am wrong but you actually believe he lives in the clouds with angels, so tell me with this kind of logic who really has the small brain?

      I do agree with you that we wouldn’t be able to comprehend anything if God told us anything considering the bible is mostly incomprehensible and translated by many different denominations and apologetics to suit their own religious doctrines.

      you also claim “God is good and will always be good no matter what happened in the beginning, what’s happening now or what will happen in the future”.

      This statement clears the way for all crime, genocide, wars, murders and corruption for all time considering your god is all knowing and all good, therefore there is no bad in what happens and what God does is always good, right? For example, 20,000 Children some from non-Christian background per day suffering immense pain from starvation and disease before death?

      you obviously believe everything you have been told because it is claimed under a certain translation to be in the bible. Not only was the bible written thousands of years ago by an ancient people with ancient and primitive ideas borrowed from former and current religions they believed in human sacrifices and many of the principles of the Islamic laws.

      you are obviously in awe and completely submissive to the Christian God and in my opinion this makes you an indoctrinated clone that leaves the progressive life plan for normal humans to those of us that have logic, realism and integrity as a part of our mental makeup.

  23. Goofy3 says:

    Reading the above comments was interesting. I cannot find where anyone says they are an expert and can prove their ideas. All the information you have about how old the earth is and if or if not there is a God has come from some source. Can you prove that that source had correct information to base their decisions?

    Also, who cares how old the earth is? So you believe it is 6000 years old of a billion years old. What are you going to do with that information? Yammer on about it with supposedly proven facts? What a waste of time.

    To show you how blinded people become on things look at a presidential election especially the last one (2016). Millions upon millions of dollars were spent to supposedly help a candidate win yet only one person could win. Is that a good use of money (especially if the winning candidate was a billionaire)? That is gambling and we know the definition of gambling (take risky action in the hope of a desired result).

    People have doubted that there is the God mentioned in the Bible for over 2000 years, people doubted that the world was round also. Maybe, just maybe the God in the Bible is real and the age of the earth and man is not for us to know.

    • sklyjd says:

      Goofy. What sort of expert are you looking for? There are many websites supported by experts in their scientific fields and is there a problem with that because none of us are experts at everything we may comment on.

      You ask “who cares how old the earth is?” I do care a lot that certain people are teaching their children and maybe other children Biblical myths that are in direct contradiction to real scientific evidence.

      I agree people have doubted that there are any gods for thousands of years. Man has visible evidence that the earth is a sphere and science has evidence through aging techniques that the world is about 4.5 billion years’ old. Man also does know that God of the Bible is non-existent in reality but exists mentally.

  24. Anonymous says:

    Look up young earth evidence. http://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-world/
    There is no argument here just ignorance.

  25. Anonymous says:

    Couldn’t the answer be that the stars and the Earth were not created at the same time? A star’s light reaching the earth may be evidence of the star once existing long ago, but how does that also mean that the Earth was also in being at the time the light was released from the star? Also, how do we know the current distance between the earth occupies at the present and the star is the same distance that was present when the star released its light. If celestial bodies are in motion (or God moved them in the time before Earth came into being), then the premise is flawed that the distance between the star and Earth is a constant.

    • sklyjd says:

      The Earth and the rest of the universe were not created at the same time. I am no expert but browsed the Web and I think from the many ways science has at its disposal to date our earth they must be within the ball park of 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years. The Earth was formed by gravity that gathered gas and dust into asteroids and small planets that collided and gradually became larger and eventually building our solar system.


      From Scientific American
      For centuries scholars sought to determine Earth’s age, but the answer had to wait for careful geologic observation, isotopic analyses of the elements and an understanding of radioactive decay.

      From Wikipedia
      This dating is based on evidence from radiometric age-dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.

      And this for the age of the Universe on Slate. With the European Space Agency’s Planck spacecraft using instruments far more sensitive than ever before.


      A few years ago, the WMAP spacecraft looked at the Universe much as Planck has, and for the time got the best determination of the cosmic age: 13.73 +/- 0.12 billion years old. Planck has found that the Universe is nearly 100 million years older than that: 13.82 billion years. Mar 21, 2013.

      I do not think the scientists are in any doubt about measuring light to determine age and distances whether the stars have moved naturally or any particular god moved them.

  26. Chris says:

    I’m curious: how do you solve the problem with frequency shifting to the extremities, if the universe was stretched out from 6,000 years to 13.8 Billion?

    Spectral analysis shows that distance light is from stars with known elements. Shifting gives us an idea of their acceleration towards and away from us. During this massive ‘streatching’ of the universe, said light would be well outside the visible spectrum – but it is not.

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