Without a doubt, no other chapter in the Old Testament is more compelling, or more controversial, than the story of the Suffering Servant. It is used by Christians to both demonstrate the prophetic prowess of the Bible and to qualify Jesus as the promised Messiah.
Unfortunately for our purposes, Isaiah 53 is not easily divided into multiple questions, so I’m going to cover the entire chapter right here, right now. Enjoy!
Commenting on the comments of commentators
Jews have long argued that the Suffering Servant is the personification of Israel, and not the Messiah. And — no surprise — Christians have long argued that it is about the Messiah.
Christian apologists often point out that some ancient Jewish commentators (long before Jesus) believed that the Suffering Servant represented the Messiah. Christians say it wasn’t until early Christians began using Isaiah 53 to defend Jesus that Jews had an all-too-convenient change of heart, and began insisting it was about Israel, and not the Messiah.
But not to be outdone, Jews point out that even some Christian Bible commentators agree with them that the modern interpretation is the correct one, and the Suffering Servant is Israel:
“Israel, the servant of God, suffered as a humiliated individual.”
— The New English Bible, Oxford Study Edition“…In the original historical context, however, the servant appears to have been exiled Israel. God’s deliverance and exaltation of Israel will astound the nations who formerly despised this disfigured slave.”
— The Harper Collins Study Bible“The Lord speaks, promising that the servant Israel, although disfigured because of the agonies of exile, will be exalted so that nations will be astonished.”
— The New Interpreter’s Study Bible
In what appears to be an attempt at compromise, some Christians have proposed that the Suffering Servant is a “corporate personality,” that represents both Israel and the Messiah simultaneously. Jews disagree, and refuse to allow Jesus to piggy-back on Israel’s prophecy.
Regardless of who’s right, the fact that there exists serious doubts about who the Suffering Servant represents does not bode well for the clarity of Isaiah 53. What we need for a prophecy to be convincing is clarity and specificity, and if we can’t nail down the identity of the Suffering Servant (no pun intended), then it doesn’t matter one bit or cubit what Isaiah 53 has to say about him. We need to be absolutely certain the prophecy refers to the future messiah, and this is highly debatable.
Still, Isaiah 53 is far too critical to ignore, so I wanted to investigate its key verses for myself. Since the story begins in Isaiah 52:13, I’ll start there.
Isaiah 52:13 – See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Isaiah begins by speaking of a servant. Who is the servant? This seems to be spelled out in earlier chapters:
“You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
“But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.” (44:1)
“Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel” (44:21)
“You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
Christians point out that Isaiah also names specific servants elsewhere (e.g. David, Eliakim, and Isaiah himself). Unfortunately, Isaiah never clearly identifies any individual as the Suffering Servant. Because Isaiah fails to do so, I think we have to assume the servant is Israel, unless there is some very strong textual evidence to the contrary.
If it was Isaiah’s intention to speak of the Messiah, it would’ve been nice had he actually said so, instead of using the same moniker to identify both Israel and the Messiah, which has led to 2,000 years of confusion.
52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness —
Christians most often link this disfigurement to Jesus’ execution, but I see a couple serious problems with this:
Isaiah strongly suggests these disfigurements are lifelong afflictions; the Servant grows up without beauty (53:2), and people turn their heads from him because of it (53:3).- If we assume this is just speaking of Jesus’ execution, can we honestly state that Jesus was “disfigured beyond that of any human being”? Despite how Mel Gibson might imagine it, the Bible says that Jesus’ most serious wounds were to his hands, feet, and side. No bones were broken, and no serious disfigurement remained after his resurrection, despite the persistence of his other injuries (John 20:27).
If I were reading Isaiah 2,000 years ago and went in search of this character (believing it to be about the Messiah), I would start my search with the local lepers, not the local carpenters. If someone even suggested Jesus, I’d immediately disqualify him for his obvious lack of disfigurement. The author of the ancient Babylonian Talmud also seems to agree, identifying the Suffering Servant as “The Leper Scholar.”
52:15 he will sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Jews say this is a clue to whom is going to speak next, the kings and nations of the world, whose eyes have finally been opened and they are now realizing that it is Israel who has suffered for mankind.
53:3 – He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Christians say it was Jesus who was “despised and rejected,” but Jews say that it was Israel that was made to suffer. Jews also point out that Jesus was actually quite popular, and often followed by crowds of thousands.
Isaiah also states that the Suffering Servant was a “man of suffering, familiar with pain,” yet by all appearances, Jesus was a man of little suffering, unfamiliar with any serious pain, up to his execution.
If you were asked to pick one truly unique characteristic about Jesus, it would probably be his ability to perform miracles, but Isaiah doesn’t say, “Go look for the guy doing miracles,” he says “Look for the ugly suffering guy,” which would be no help to those trying to identify him.
53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
For the believer, it is Jesus who was pierced for our sins (note: the majority of Bible translators prefer to translate the word “pierced” as “wounded”).
When we read this verse with Jesus in mind, it’s easy to read other assumptions into the text. For example, Isaiah never says that the servant dies from his piercings, nor how many times he was pierced, nor where on his body, or why. We assume there were three piercings, to a cross, through his hands and feet, for the purpose of execution, but Isaiah never says this. In fact, Jesus could’ve been stabbed on a battlefield, or shot with an arrow, or bitten by a snake, or had his ear pierced as a slave, and we could still associate this verse to him (regardless of whether he lived or died).
Interestingly, many Jews claim that this verse was purposefully mistranslated, and that it should read: “But he was wounded from our transgressions, he was crushed as a result of our iniquities.” The servant Israel suffers because of the sinfulness of others, not for them.
53:7 – “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
It’s possible that Jesus, believing himself to be the Messiah, could’ve been motivated by Isaiah to remain silent at his trials. But there’s some evidence the gospel writers attempted to downplay how much Jesus spoke in order to make him a better fit for this prophecy.
Matthew, Mark and Luke all report that Jesus only said a few words to Pilate, afterwards Pilate is amazed by his silence. However, John 18:34-19:11 reports a much longer conversation with Pilate. So the question is, did John lie about this long conversation? Or did the other gospel writers choose to edit it so that Jesus appears silent?
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.
Jews claim that this verse, too, was translated with Christian bias, and it should read “…as a result of the transgression of my people, they were afflicted.” The important distinction being that “they” (not “he”) were multiple individuals who were punished.
53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Christians sometimes claim the “grave with the wicked” was Jesus execution between two thieves, while “with the rich in his death” refers to the rich man’s tomb. But since a grave is usually a final resting place, it would’ve been more accurate to say the opposite: “He was assigned death with the wicked, and with the rich in his grave.”
But more importantly, Christians claim that Isaiah couldn’t possibly be referring to Israel here, because only Jesus had “done no violence” and had no “deceit in his mouth.”
However, in the previous chapter, God speaks of Assyria placing His people into exile “for no reason”…
“So what do I find here? asks the LORD. My people are taken away for no reason.” (52:5)
So just prior to this song about an innocent Suffering Servant, we have God saying his servants were taken away for no reason, suggesting that they were possibly suffering for sins they didn’t commit.
53:10 But it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Again, Jews claim this should be translated “… if he would offer himself as a guilt offering, he shall see his seed…” In other words, if the people of Israel would only repent, they would prosper. Jews also point out that Jesus had no offspring.
For Christians, the meaning of offspring is reinterpreted to mean the saved, rather than literal children.
53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Why would Jesus suffer and then “see the light of life and be satisfied”? And if this were truly predicting Jesus, shouldn’t it read: “…by his blood my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.” How does his knowledge serve to bear our iniquities?
Jews insist that it’s Israel’s knowledge of God that justifies many.
53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Christians point out that Israel couldn’t have poured out its life unto death, because it is still alive. However, both Jesus and Jews in exile could be said to have poured out their lives unto death, and been numbered with transgressors, and forced to bare the sins of others. However, only Israel could be given a “portion among the great” (e.g. great nations). How could Jesus be given a portion among the great? Great what? Great Gods? Israel too can “divide the spoils with the strong,” but with whom would Jesus divide his spoils?
So who is Isaiah really talking about?
I would have to concur with the Christian commentators quoted earlier, I think it’s most likely that Isaiah is speaking of Israel, by way of the exiled Jews. I believe this because:
- The exile was the big concern of Isaiah’s day,
- The preceding chapter is speaking about the Jews in exile,
- Isaiah identifies Israel as his servant (and no one else) nine times in the chapters preceding Isaiah 53 (from chapter 40 on),
- Isaiah speaks of the suffering in the past-tense (the exiled had already suffered),
- Elsewhere, it is always Israel that is made to suffer, and never the forthcoming Messiah.
In Isaiah’s day, he must’ve been motivated to explain the suffering that the Jews were facing. He was undoubtedly bombarded with questions like: “Hey Isaiah, why isn’t God helping us? Are the gods of our enemies more powerful?”
Isaiah needed to explain why God was acting so indifferent and… well… non-existent. He answered them by saying (and I’m paraphrasing): “The word of the Lord came to me, and said that some suffering was required as a sin offering for Israel, because birds and sheep were no longer cutting it. But as soon as we’re done with this whole exile thing, we’re all gonna head on back up to Israel and God will return it to its former glory. And it’s gonna be awesome! We’ll have music and kosher barbecues every night, unleavened cake and ice cream, sack races — it’ll be like a never-ending bar mitzvah! God will even bring about a great new king, who will knock the socks off our enemies and help to bring about world peace, so you and your offspring can live happily ever after! Oh, and these people who now enslave us — they’re really gonna regret it!” “Wow!” said the exiled Jews, who happily returned to their slaving.
Isaiah’s words gave meaning and purpose to their suffering, and gave them hope for the future.
So how did Isaiah 53 come to be associated with Jesus?
As the centuries began to tick by, numerous men came forward to announce their candidacy for Messiah (nice work if you can get it). Jesus’ disciples thought that he fit the bill, but not satisfied with just being Messiah, Jesus announced his candidacy for God’s-own-son, and was promptly executed.
His disciples, disheartened and disillusioned by their Messiah’s untimely demise, likely began searching the scriptures for anything that might shed light on the situation. The key event in Jesus’ life was his recent execution, which could be linked to many verses. For example, Psalms 22:16 says “They have pierced my hands and feet.” A possible connection, but it didn’t really explain the situation.
Isaiah 53 also spoke of being “pierced,” but it was what came next that would launch Jesus into the stratosphere — he was pierced for our transgressions! And presto! Jesus was transformed from just another failed Messiah to an integral part of God’s plan! Best of all, no one could ever prove that Jesus wasn’t able to forgive sins, or that he wasn’t able to get people into heaven.
The disciples quickly re-branded their dead candidate Messiah, and began marketing him as a new-and-improved sin-cleanser. Anyone who wanted access to heaven had to buy what the disciples were selling (figuratively speaking), and business was good.
The other verses in Isaiah 53 were seen as far less critical, but are vague enough to allow us to shoehorn details from Jesus’ life into them (well, most of them).
And with that, Isaiah’s personification of Israel morphed into an individual.
The Jewish Empire Strikes Back
About this same time, Jews everywhere suddenly felt a great disturbance in the Jew-force. Christianity was spreading rapidly, and it was up to the Jews to point out some inconvenient truths about this newly proposed Messiah. They pointed out that:
- God is opposed to the idea of an innocent person dying in the place of a sinner (Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 24:16, Ezekiel 18:1-4).
- God is opposed to human sacrifice (Genesis 22:10-13, Leviticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 18:10).
- There is no other collaborating evidence outside of Isaiah 53 that supports the idea of a sacrificial Messiah who dies for the sins of the world.
- Nowhere does the scripture teach that one will need to believe in a sacrificial Messiah in order to obtain forgiveness.
- God already forgave sins, so a sacrifice was unnecessary (II Chronicles 7:14, Ezekiel 18:21-22, Ezekiel 33:14-16, Jeremiah 36:3, Isaiah 55:6- 7, Jonah 3:6-10, Daniel 4:27, Hosea 14:1-3, Proverbs 16:6).
- And finally, Jesus didn’t fulfill all the Messianic prophecies. He didn’t become king, or bring about world peace.
But their effort made little difference, Jesus was just too charismatic. Their prophecy had been hijacked. This was not how the Jews imagined it would go down, not at all. They imagined the kings of the world would eventually look up to them, not Jesus.
The Power of Prophecy?
Under question #32 (Can prophecies prove the Bible is true?), I wrote that prophecies were not the most reliable means for determining truth, and listed 20 ways in which prophecies can be misleading. I was surprised to find over half of these were operating inside of Isaiah 53.
It starts with a simple prediction, or suggestion (#7). By suggesting that God will send a leader, people begin searching for one. After they find a possible match, it becomes a self-fulfilled prophecy (#4). But had there never been the suggestion, no one would’ve begun looking, no one would’ve associated Jesus with it, and no one would’ve interpreted his life as a sin offering.
By the time Jesus was born, Isaiah was well known, and could’ve potentially inspired some of Jesus’ actions (#1). After his death, disciples mined the scriptures for prophecies they could match up to events in Jesus’ life (#9). They found a great one (#16), and then they took the the surrounding verses and began mining Jesus’ life for other loose associations (#9). It didn’t really matter if Isaiah said he was “despised and rejected” or “celebrated and accepted,” we just flip through the catalog that is Jesus’ life until we find a plausible match (#3 & #9).
Once the key connection was made (Jesus forgives sins), confirmation bias takes over (#8), and people begin seeing Jesus all throughout the Old Testament, even in places where he was never intended (#9).
Wherever prophecies didn’t exactly match up, such as not opening his mouth at his trial, the details were embellished. This works so long as no one can disprove it (#19). And specific prophecies that went unfulfilled, but were not easily lied about, were given alternate and non-falsifiable explanations. Things like Jesus not becoming king or having offspring were given metaphorical or spiritual explanations (#18). And his failure to bring about world peace was made “eternally pending” (#17).
Eventually, biased Christian translators would come along and changed words like “them” to “he” and “wounded” to “pierced,” changes that made it easier for future generations to make the same connections (#13).
All these things work together so that today, a casual reading of Isaiah 53 appears impressive and convincing.
What does the Suffering Servant have to do with Abraham Lincoln?
Nothing, but all this talk of shoehorning known events into vague prophecies made me wonder… would it be possible to take another iconic individual and match him up to the Suffering Servant?
Abraham Lincoln was the first person to come to mind, so let’s gave it a try…
He acted wisely and was highly exalted (52:1)- He was disfigured –Lincoln was taller than most men, and shot in the head (52:2)
- He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him — he wasn’t very attractive and came from a poor family (53:2)
- He was despised and rejected — by the South and slave owners (53:3)
- He was familiar with suffering — he suffered from chronic depression, lost two young children, and constantly anguished over the Civil War (53:3)
- He was pierced — shot in the head! (53:5)
- And died for our transgressions — he died because of our immoral desire to enslave others (53:5)
- The punishment that brought us peace was upon him — he kept the union together while bringing freedom to the slaves (53:5)
- Lincoln did not open his mouth when he was slaughtered (53:7)
- He was cut off from the land of the living (53:8)
- He was assigned a grave with the wicked — he was murdered by an assassin (53:9)
- And with the rich in his death — via costly and elaborate monuments (53:9)
- It was the Lord’s will for Lincoln to suffer for the freedom of others — can you prove it wasn’t? (53:10)
- Lincoln had literal offspring (53:10)
- God prolonged his days — He died at 56, when life expectancy was less than 40 (53:10)
- Lincoln’s knowledge justified many (53:11)
- And he was given a portion among the great — he is remembered as one of our greatest Presidents (53:12)
- He made intercession for the transgressors — the South (53:12)
- And he poured out his life — in service to his cause — unto death (53:12)
And just for good measure, Lincoln was also seen by several credible eye-witnesses after his death!
If we can find 19 similarities between the Suffering Servant and Abraham Lincoln, is it really so hard to imagine that early Christians couldn’t do the same with Jesus?
The Christians inside my head are now yelling: “But wait! Lincoln never fulfilled all the messianic prophecies!” True, but neither did Jesus! Perhaps these unfulfilled prophecies are still on Lincoln’s to-do list for when he returns… perhaps his return is right around the corner… we’ll just have to wait and see. (Or not.)
In reality, there have been other candidates for the Suffering Servant, including Isaiah himself, and King Uzziah (a leper who lived during Isaiah’s time), and Cyrus the Great, who freed Jews from exile. Isaiah even calls Cyrus “anointed” (a term used to describe the Messiah) and a “shepherd” (Isaiah 44:28-45:1).
Conclusion
When we read Isaiah 53, I think we see what we want to see, or what we’ve been taught to see. Jews see the reason they suffer and hope for the future, Christians see a Messiah who loved them enough to suffer and die, and skeptics see vague prophecies that were retroactively mined and misapplied to one charismatic Jewish carpenter.
But I have to ask myself, “Is there really a God, and is He really trying to communicate with us through Isaiah?” If he is, it’s unfortunate that he wasn’t able provide more specific, tenable prophecies.
Unfortunately, the prophet Isaiah is long gone, and we can’t empirically test his prophetic abilities. All we have are his vague, often probable, enigmatic prophecies. Since this is all we have, these need to describe extremely specific and highly improbable events in order to be compelling. And even then, it’s not an exact science.
The most specific prediction Isaiah gives is that the Messiah (if it’s even about the Messiah) would be “disfigured beyond that of any human being.” In my honest assessment, Isaiah is describing a lifetime of disfigurement, and so Jesus fails to qualify. The other details Isaiah provides are probable or vague, so that anyone could fit into Isaiah’s rubber mold (e.g. lots of people are wounded, celebrated, suffer, have children, etc.).
If there is no God, then Isaiah’s predictions are all bogus. This would explain why God frequently failed the Jews, and why He still has yet to send their promised messiah. It would also explain why Jesus didn’t fulfill the most difficult messianic prophecies, and why he never returned.
Rather than being predicted by Isaiah 53, I think Jesus was defined by it.
But there are many other prophecies that are said to be about Jesus, and I plan to investigate some of these in the future, but if Isaiah 53 is one of the best, then I don’t hold out much hope for the others.
500 Questions about God & Christianity 
Lets do Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
1.Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (Check@)
2.As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (He was beaten, ALOT! Check!)
3. he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.(He was rather unattractive, IMHO. Check!)
4. He is despised and rejected of men (By the British. Check!)
5. a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief (Again, he was beaten. ALOT! Check!)
6. But he was wounded for our transgressions (He was beaten for protesting the mistreatment of non-Whites in South Africa. Check!)
7. And died for our transgressions (He was assassinated by a Hindu extremist. He died because of his people’s unwillingness to negotiate for peace. Check!)
8. the chastisement of our peace was upon him (He earned India their Independence. Check!)
9. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth (He was known for simply standing there and refusing to do something as protest. I bet he didn’t say a word when doing this at least once. Prove he DIDN’T! 😉 Check!)
10. for he was cut off out of the land of the living (He’s dead. Easy! Check!)
11. And he made his grave with the wicked (Killed by an assassin too. Check!)
12. and with the rich in his death (His ashes have been all over the world. Check!)
13. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him (God didn’t stop it. He can do that, just doesn’t. Must be because he enjoys it. What a sadist. Check!)
14. he shall see his seed (Ghandhi inspired an entire generation with his non-violent protest. They are all his children. Its a metaphor, see how that works. Check!)
15. he shall prolong his days (He made it to 78. With all the people he had pissed off, The Lord had to have been with Ghandi for him to have made it that long. Check!)
16. by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many (His form of non-violent protest helped to win India’s independence. I would say his knowledge justified many. Check!)
17. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great (He is a well know historical figure. Check!)
18. made intercession for the transgressors (The British. Check!)
19. because he hath poured out his soul unto death (He devoted his entire life to his cause. And he died because of it. Check!)
20. because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (Check!)
21. when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin (He was very willing to put himself in harms way for others. Check!)
Ha! My Messiah got 21 and yours only got 19! My God is better than your God! Or is he the Son of God? Or is he a Prophet? Didn’t I say Messiah at first? Meh I’ll just edit it all later to say God! 😉 Seriously though, great post!. They say imitation is the greatest form of flattery, right? Tomorrow I’ll do Elvis 🙂
Nice!! 🙂
That took a bit of research too. Now I have an idea of all the effort you put into each post! That effort is greatly appreciated.
That was brilliant, Aradia!
Thank you, thank you!! *Bows* 🙂
….the pronoun used in Isaiah 53 is singular. Period. Isaiah 53 is a very inconvenient chapter in the Hebrew scriptures as is Zachariah 9:9
As the suffering servant, yes, it is singular, but this is a non-issue as long as the suffering servant represents Israel, and not an individual. If you’re referring to verse 8…
“Notice the correct translation is THEY, not He! It is the plural ‘They’ not the singular ‘He’ as the Christians wrote. This Hebrew word for ‘they’ appears over 40 times in the Hebrew bible――always translated as ‘they’! Jews ask, why must the Christian bible alter the Hebrew? It is only an attempt to prove Jesus was mentioned or even implied.”
~http://www.ragingrussian.com/religion/isaiah-53.htm
I’d love to consider Zechariah 9:9 under a future question, but I don’t see why it would be inconvenient. The Jews did believe in a coming messiah (king) who would rescue them / be their salvation (but not in the Christian sense). He was a person, not a god. If Jesus believed he was the Messiah, all he had to do was arrange for a donkey ride. Even if he didn’t ride that donkey, it’s something that’s easily embellished later as it’s nearly impossible to disprove.
500Q
Thank you so much for a brilliant outlook of Isaiah 53. I believe much is left out. I would start from 42 and show that for you to succeed in showing Isaiah 53 Servant is Israel nation, then you need to explain away the following:
1. The Servant is elected by God anointed by the Spirit 42.1-4
2. Justice is prime goal of Servant vocation which is also international 42,1-6, 49:6
3. God predestined the Servant, gifted teacher, to his vocation 49,1,2
4. The Servant suffer a substitutionary suffering for his people (53:3-12)
One, If you think Israel is the Servant, in this particular passages, then you need to show that Israelites suffer in place of Israelites’ people,(who are Israelites people, Greeks and Gentiles?).
Two. Let us add Israel in places were it fits in 53: 6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all”(ESV)
All Israelites(since Israel as a nation is made up of its people) are like sheep and have gone astray, Isralites(including Isaiah) have turned away to their own ways. God has laid on Israelites the inquites of all of Israeltes.
Adding verse 11 and 12 Israilites make many to be accounted righteous, and Israeilites shall bear their iniquities. And Israelite bore the sin of many,and makes intercession for the transgressors.
Remember a nation as an abstract cannot do a think, like pay or bear sin, but nation as it people does make since.
I find the reading of Israel 53 as Israelites absurd since they also need saving from sin. From verse 6 All Israelites have turn away, then Israelites cannot be the verse 11, Servant, since he is God’s righteous one.
On top if you accept Isaiah 53 as a historical document(not neccessarily true) then I believe you would accept Matt 8:17 quoting verse 4 applying it to Jesus, 1 Peter 2:24 quoting 5, and in great detailed Acts 8:31-35 where Philip found Ethiapian reading Isaiah 53. Could you be kind to address these
Your blog reader and follower,
Prayson
Hi Daniel, thanks for reading and commenting.
You’re certainly right, there are a lot of details outside of Isaiah 53, including the other three “servant songs.” I didn’t go into these, mostly because they didn’t seem to carry as much weight as the verses in Isaiah 53.
Not surprisingly, not all Christians agree on what exactly qualifies the Suffering Servant to be about Jesus, but most of their rationale stems from the verses in Isaiah 53 itself (which is why it’s so famous).
There are a few things I think it’s important for people to understand when reading Isaiah 53…
1) Jews believe that one day, because of their obedience and loyalty to God, He will make them a world leader, and they will bring about world peace and salvation (through their knowledge of God).
2) To Jews, the messiah is just a king blessed by God, He doesn’t play nearly the critical role that Jesus does for Christians. He’s important, but so is all the work Israel has done to bring him about (though all credit goes to God).
3) Most Jews say that Isaiah 53 speaks about this messianic time, but it does not specifically mention the work of the messiah. Rather, all the focus is on Israel, who has suffered to bring this time about.
4) Most Jews see the bulk of Isaiah 53 as a direct quote from the collective kings and nations at this messianic time.
5) Jews and Christians have very different views on how forgiveness is obtained. Christians believe that a sacrificial surrogate (Jesus) is necessary. Jews believe that one must repent of their sins directly to God, and then obey His commandments; a surrogate sacrifice is unnecessary, redundant, and unfair. As one Jew vividly pointed out, “Why should obedient Jews go to hell, while the evil Nazis who killed them go to heaven, just because they believed in Jesus?”
“One, If you think Israel is the Servant, in this particular passages, then you need to show that Israelites suffer in place of Israelites’ people,(who are Israelites people, Greeks and Gentiles?).”
In the passages you listed, you mentioned Isaiah 49:1-2, but left off verse 3, the key verse that actually tells us who the servant is…
So we don’t need to “think” it’s about Israel, the Bible says so. And while it’s very tempting to turn this particular personification of Israel into a person, I don’t think we have the textual evidence to support that.
But to answer your next question, how is it Israelites suffer for Israelites?
I wouldn’t technically say that Israelites suffer IN PLACE of other individual Israelites (as in the Christian sense), but that they suffer for the redemption of Israel as a whole.
To put it another way, if some Jews were evil in the distant past, the suffering of these exiled Jews didn’t score them any points in the afterlife, they were still judged for their evil behavior. Likewise, no future Jew could ever claim: “My sins are forgiven because my ancestors suffered in exile!” Not at all. This isn’t about personal salvation as much as it is about a punishment for disobedience. God is willing to consider this suffering a sin offering for the nation, and put the nation back on track.
“Two. Let us add Israel in places were it fits in 53: 6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all”(ESV)
All Israelites(since Israel as a nation is made up of its people) are like sheep and have gone astray, Isralites(including Isaiah) have turned away to their own ways. God has laid on Israelites the inquites of all of Israeltes.”
Jews believe that, as verse 52:15 suggests, the bulk of Isaiah 53 is spoken from the viewpoint of the kings and nations at the time of Israel’s rise to power. They are saying, “Holy crap! We were so wrong about Israel and the Jews! All this time they held the truth, and we treated them like dirt!” So in this context, it’s not the Israelites who have all gone astray, but the kings and nations of the world, none of whom have followed God, or suffered as Israel has.
So Israel’s suffering comes from 2 places: 1) Because they, as a nation, did not repent and serve God as they should have and, 2) as a result, God set these nations against them to cause them to suffer. However, God sees this suffering as a form of sin offering, and will redeem them and allow Israel to triumph in the end.
As for the New Testament verses, these ideas were developed centuries later, and possibly decades after Jesus’s death. Had Isaiah’s personification of Israel never existed, Jesus never would’ve been presumed to be a surrogate sacrifice for sin, and would’ve faded away as another failed wannabe messiah.
Peace!
Thank you for a powerful reply. I believe your whole reply rest with the truth of “1) Jews believe that one day, because of their obedience and loyalty to God, He will make them a world leader, and they will bring about world peace and salvation (through their knowledge of God).” Could you refer to me Scriptures or Second Temple Judaism where I could find proof for this?
Your blog follower and reader,
Prayson
You’re most welcome, sir.
Much of the “proof” for this is in how Jews choose to interpret scripture, including Isaiah 53 itself. But I found this theme repeated in many of the articles and videos I used in researching Isaiah 53. For example, the Jewish website Aish.com mentions it in their article on Isaiah 53:
“Isaiah 53 is a prophecy foretelling how the world will react when they witness Israel’s salvation in the Messianic era.”
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html
And Rabbi Michael Skobac also discusses it at great length in his lecture on Isaiah 53, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TeOtzTaAco
That said, I’m certainly not promoting Judaism, (Jews can be as religiously motivated as anyone else,) but they are experts in interpreting their own scripture, and usually do so free of any Christian bias (just Jewish bias).
Thank you for Skobac and Aish.com, but I am not sure if they provided what I am asking.
I am asking for Second Temple Judaism sources. Since Christians and Judizers are equally bias in reading Isaiah 53, I would love to know which one is true.
It seems you favor Judizers position, I would love to know what sources led them to think that their would be a time which Isrealites by works of the law would be God’s righteous and substitute itself, taking the justices of other nations in their place.
Your blog reader and follower,
Prayson
The Biblical prophesies are just as vague as any prophesies. Their power lies in people wanting to believe in them. Or more precisely wanting to believe, that the prophesies mean what they would like them to mean. Christians would like the stories of Isaiah to mean one thing and the Jews would want them to mean something completely different. But if one streches them to mean either of what they want these two groups want them to mean, then they could mean just about anything. That is the propblem of metaphors. Metaphors can mean just about anything and any old loonie could have come up with them. I suppose, that is why the fundamentalists in many religions have decided to disbelieve the theory of evolution and just about all other sciences that reveal their holy scriptures to be metaphors ie. fancy fairytales.
I really enjoyed the point of the Lincoln version and liked the Gandhi version. I also decided to test if this prophesy could be used for my personal favourite saviour character. And what do you know, it works for Ernesto “Che” Guevara just as well.
Isaiah 52:13 – See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Che Guevara was exalted to the position of Cuban minister, but he was exalted even higher after he lowered himself back to a guerilla fighter and died, as a symbol for revolution and fight against capitalist tyranny. This was the result of his actions widely regarded as wise. Check!
52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness —
Even though there are people who see in him a young and handsome man, he was also seen as a unconventional hippie with his long hair and beard by his contemporaries. To many his very image has become the symbol of evil and they see him as revolting. Check!
52:15 …he will sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
The Cuban revolution and the image of Che Guevara was in many ways an event that changed history and has ever since greatly affected the history of many nations. Especially so in Latin America and in among other so called developing countries. Check!
53:3 – He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Che was certainly despised and rejected by many people and leaders of the western world. He suffered from severe astma, so he for sure was also familiar with suffering. Check!
53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Che was shot because of his fight against tyranny and inequality in this world. The sacrifice he made has many even in the west to see how the extortion of the third world is the reality that offers us in the first world this lavish consumer culture. Check!
53:7 – “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
When Che was finally siezed in the Columbian jungle, he did not give away his brothers in arms the other guerillas. Check!
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.
Che was brutally executed without a trial, and not many even in the so called free press protested. He was murdered so that he could no longer speak out or fight for the oppressed poor people in the third world countries. Check!
53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
This passage requires more “apologetics” for the other claimants, so why not for Che also. When Che was killed he was symbolically thrown away among all the communist leaders as an evil man. Later he has become a legend and even the rich kids in the western world may bear a t-shirt with his face on it. He only was guilty of violence, that of any soldier trying to defend the helpless and innocent. No matter, if you think that socialism is the best way to social justice or not, Che most propably honestly thought so. There was no deceit in his mouth about it. Check!
53:10 But it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Even though Che died as a young man, his days have been prolonged and propably will be far to the future by what he has become as a symbol in the fight for justice. His life was certainly an offering for “sin” as he was born into a rich family, but was “called” to serve the cause of the poor as a doctor and as a guerilla leader. He had literal offspring, but his seed is in the legacy he left after him as Cuba is the one Latin American country that has equally low infant mortality rates and higher proportion of literacy among its citizens in comparrison to the USA. Is it not the will of the “Lord” to defend the helpless and poor of the third world? Check!
53:11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Che suffered the astma, but it never stopped him from trying to improve the lives of the needy, even in the most hardest conditions. He treated the sick for free in a lepracy colony in the Amazone allready when he was just a young medical student. His knowledge will justify many, because any oppressed people may pick up his guide to guerilla warfare and use its wisdom to fight even against the military supremacy of mighty empires, that may try to exploit and harvest the natural resources of the third world countries. Check!
53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Che has truly been given a portion among the great. He has forced the strong to divide the spoils with the needy, and he poured out his life unto death and was numbered with the transgressors (communists). Check!
You could argue that no god would have prophesized about Che, but how can you know? God works in mysterious ways, remeber.
People in general are quite eclestic about their religious and supernatural beliefs. Even the most hard line fundamentalists of any given religion go out cherry picking what personally suits them from the scriblings of ancient cult leaders and demagogues. If an actual creator entity with the knowledge of the future would want to share any of that knowledge with us as a whole of humanity, why would that god make that information so cryptic that people with the sincere will to understand the message are getting it wrong all the time. That is one of things I really do not understand about religion. That religious people see their gods as benevolent and all-powerfull, but that these gods are frankly quite unable to produce any coherent messages to us humans. And it gets even weirder, when the same religious people defend their gods, by claiming that the reason why other people do not see their particular gods and deities as the real ones is the unwillingness of other people to accept their alledgedly self evident gods and the meaning of their prophesies. If one particular religion was right about these things, would you not expect it to be self evident to all people and not just to those who have been culturally indoctrinated into that particular religion at some point of their lives? A god might tell you through some form of revelation, or (much more likely) throug ancient scripture, that this system is moral, but what does your sense of conscience tell you? Is it fair?
So many messiahs, so little time.
It’s amazing to see how you can take just about any charismatic individual and shoehorn details from his life into Isaiah 53. Perhaps Jesus just got to Isaiah 53 first.
I often hear the argument that you alluded to, where one needs to believe before they can see. When you believe in God, or Jesus, then you start to see him revealed in the scriptures. But is that what’s REALLY happening? Is God REALLY opening your eyes, perhaps through the power of the Holy Spirit, and letting you see the Bible in a whole new way because you’ve believed? Or is this just a trick of the mind, you accept a proposition (i.e. Jesus is spoken of in the OT), and then you use your confirmation bias to affirm that newly accepted position? Is God speaking to you through the Bible, or are we confirming our own bias?
I have little doubt that if we truly believed the Bible was talking about Abraham Lincoln (or Gandhi, or Che Guevara), that we would start to see evidence of them there. A little bias… er… faith… is all that’s needed to begin to see the truth.
If we consider the sentiments of the followers of Jesus after his execution. Regardless, if he was seen after the event and just disappeared a little later, or not, they had lost this guy they had honestly believed to be the Messiah, who would deliver them from the oppression of the Roman empire. The empire had not suffered anything and everything was as it had been before. Now, the most eager followers of Jesus had allready invested much on him. They loved him for being the good guy he was and they propably felt confused and devastated. They had an obvious emotional need to reconcile between the reality and what they so firmly had believed. To make up this reconciliation, they found from the ancient prophesies stuff that seemed to fit the picture of the suffering servant delivering them from evil. And the world is full of all kinds of evils. As they grew older and more conservative (as you do) they came to accept the empire as a status quo, but they still held their love for their beloved teacher and tried to hold true to his very good teachings about compassion. Their cultural heritage caused them to think that this guy had to be a divine source of wisdom, rather than just a philosopher, and if his own cultural “bias” was to explain himself as a messanger or “son” of a god, that of course confirmed it. It might have been very obvious to them, that any old prophesies, wich even slightly resembled the events they had experienced had to be about their own experiences and as time passed and they wrote it all down, they told the story forward the way it fitted better into the old and well known prophesies.
There is a lot of “apologetics” allready in the New Testament. Like for example one of the Goslpels going at great length and detail about the Roman guards at the tomb to refute the contemporary suspicion, that the diciples had removed the body of Jesus from the tomb, while the other Gospels make no mentioning of such guards, all the while at the same time describing the events there in great detail and totally contradicting each other.
Throughout history people there has allways been a portion of people who are very convinced, that the prophesies of the end of days has to become true within their own lifetime. To me it seems like their ego has grown out of proportion and their vision of history is very narrow. This is one of the things why this conversation about religions is very important today, as today we finally hold means to bring about the end of days to our voulnerable world and ecosystem. If there are very many people in leading and deciding positions who sincerely and firmly believe that the end of the world would be a good thing, they might take the matter into their own hands. As gods allways seem to need the help of their faithfull followers to actually achieve anything in this material universe.
Yep, everyone seems to be confident than they’ve interpreted the scriptures correctly, they know what it says, and it says the world is going to end. And then… it doesn’t. What if the disciples likewise thought they’d interpreted scripture correctly? The only difference being that there was no way to prove they were correct. Or was there?
If only Jesus had set a date and said, “I’ll be back in 40 years,” we’d know exactly when he failed to pan out. Interestingly, this appears to be just what Jesus did. Luke 9:27 says, “I tell you the truth, some standing here right now will not die before they see the Kingdom of God.” To me, this seems pretty clear, but apologists have lots of interesting ways of talking themselves out of this hole. I’d love to take a closer look at this verse in the future. But as I Christian, I was told that Jesus was was saying was that Christianity would not fade away before his return.
But to add to what you were saying, I think the disciples did expect Jesus to become a literal king, and were hoping to ride his coattails to the top, and become prominent men themselves (“Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory”). When Jesus didn’t pan out, they were probably a little embarrassed over the whole ordeal, and weren’t looking forward to being mocked by their friends, family and neighbors. What to do… what to do… 😉
“Yes Jesus loves me. Yes Jesus loves me. Yes Jesus loves me, the bible tells me so.” If any of you reading this can sing these words from memory, then you remember a time when Jesus meant Love and little else. The story of Jesus was, is, and ever shall be, a Love Story. Punching holes in a Love Story kinda misses the point, don’t you think? Unless of course you aren’t seeing it that way anymore. Hmm. Then have at it! But after you finish the research and share it with the world, please please please remember, that,
“Yes Jesus Loves you, yes Jesus loves you…
If you can sing those words from memory, you were likely a victim of childhood indoctrination, programmed to believe whatever your elders wanted you to believe. Had you been born Mayan, perhaps you would sing songs about the sun god, who loves you so much he sheds his light upon you and makes your plants grow.
For the Jews, this is nothing to sing about. Christianity is nothing but a small Jewish cult that misapplied Isaiah 53 to deceive people and launch a new religion.
“Yes Kinich Ahau loves me, yes Kinich Ahau loves me, yes Kinich Ahau loves me, my parents told me so.”
I don’t consider myself a victim but a beneficiary. Knowing the story of Jesus made me a better person because he taught me to forgive those who trespass against me. You assume that had I been born Mayan I would have been taught similar songs but that is false since I could have been raised by a non believing mayan. One never knows. Jesus loves me this I know, even if 500 questions doubts it so… 🙂 God Bless you bro.
Thanks I n I, may Kinich Ahau forgive your doubt and bless you as well.
I would have to agree with our illustrious host. Being able to recite any religious song/hymn/text/dogma/whatever from memory is an example of the childhood brainwashing performed by many of the world’s religions. Yes Christianity is not the only one guilty of it. The thing that gets me is Christians can see it happening in other religions and they can see it for what it is. When they do the same thing to their own children, it is called “guiding them to the right path”. This also alludes to one of 500 Questions previous posts, about what happens to those that are born in an area and/or a period of time that makes discovering Christianity at least highly unlikely, if not completely impossible.
Also, by your logic good sir, we should all believe that Santa is real, because we all remember the line, “Merry Christmas to all, And to all a good night!” That is a love story. Santa loves children sooo much, he magically brings all of them presents one night a year. What an amazing love story. Guess we should just accept it as fact, wouldn’t want to poke holes in a love story and miss the point. You believe in your fictitious character,and I will believe in mine.
Hear, hear! I agree totally with what Aradia said. Yet, I would want to remind I n I, that this means an atheist does not hate the fictional love story between the religious person and some particular deity, as long as that love does not lead to violence, discrimination, oppression and theft.
Religious freedom is an ethical thing in a society. Historically, for or it to be true, and not just religious tolerance of certain kinds of other practices, a secular state needed to be born.
I salute every religious person who can find the message of love from their respective religions, and apply it to not only to themselves, or to their fellow believers, but to all of mandkind and the nature around us. I think most religious people do, though as far as the afterlife (at least within Christianity), they seem quite happy to accept that most people are going to end up in eternal torment. However, religions in general are the cause of such misery and amounts of evil including robbery, exploitation, murder and war, regardless what their holy commands are supposedly all about. They are being used by people who have the deepest faith in the justice of their actions and that their particular god supports them 100%. And none of their gods ever appear anywhere to stop these atrocities. On the contrary, in their holy books these entities are guilty of endorcing human sacrifice, misogynism, genosides and slavery. So, their lovestories are full of filth, double standards, betrayal and narcism.
The problem of absolute power and authority such as with gods is, that ethically there results also absolute responsibility. Hence, if there is a Judeo-Christian god, that entity would be responsible to make the prophesy of Isaiah such it could not be misinterpreted, or misunderstood by people of faith, or by anyone else for that matter. However, it has been totally misrepresented since people who have the deepest faith in the same god are totally unable to convince each other on whose interpretation is correct. In addition to us not of these faiths it seems like not a prophesy at all. That means, their god has not fullfilled the responsibility of authority to clarify what the prophesy is supposed to be, and that entity is therefore either quite evil to spread this discord between humans, or that no such god even exists. Wich do you think is more likely?
You make excellent points good sir. The only evil I would feel needs added, is the evil of inaction. Many Christians believe that the end of the world is near. This belief clouds their judgement when it comes to taking care of the world. Both in an environmental sense, as well as in the sense of the earth’s population as whole. The say “whats the point? I am going to heaven, as long as I believe in a 2000+ year dead Jewish carpenter.” Where is the incentive in that situation to worry about the future? Just my two cents to add to your post.
Hey Aradia,
Jesus loves you man.
Now I can’t say if Santa loves you cause I don’t know if you are naughty or nice, but I can definitely state that Jesus Loves You! Now from my vantage point you and 500 are the one’s trying to indoctrinate me into believing that Jesus doesn’t love me at all, but in the immortal words of Hall & Oates, “I can’t go for that, no oh, oh, no can do.” Just keepin it lite bro 🙂 Peace
Honestly, I could care less if you believe that Jesus loves you or not. But lets go with your Santa argument. You said that you don’t know if Santa loves me bc you don’t know if I have been naughty or nice. That’s an excellent point. So you are saying that Jesus loves me, even if I have been naughty? But if, for some reason, I have not been taught believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, then I have no opportunity to ask him for forgiveness, right? If that’s the case, I am doomed to eternal torment in the lake of fire (more commonly known as Hell). How could it be that Jesus loves me no matter what, if he would punish me for not ever hearing about him? rautakyy makes an excellent point, I really only have a problem with this fairy tale, when it is used as a justification for the most horrible of atrocities. The evil that has been done in the name of numerous “gods” is sickening. Either way, may The Goddess bless you with wisdom and enlightenment.
Ornery fellow. I will go with naughty then (which means you will receive coal this Christmas). But it doesn’t mean we can’t have a conversation. You believe in No God and I believe that God is the only necessary being, so your anger at atrocities diatribe, is ultimately meaningless to both of us. If God is the only necessary being then He alone has life. For those of us transcient life forms there is either life or death. If you believe on The Lord Jesus Christ you will have life, if you don’t, you won’t. Hell is the timeless conscious moment that the soul understands that it could have lived on, had it wanted to. This is what I believe. I know it’s not the conventional fundamental position you’re used to taking to the woodshed, but I assure you it is Biblical and sound. You don’t have to cite rautakyy or anyone else to add weight to what you write in reply to me. I can assure you that I take what you’re sayng seriously, and I expect the same courtesy from you. May the force be with you.
Question for I n I. Thomas stated he would not have believed in the resurection unless he could feel the wounds Jesus had received on the Cross. If Jesus had not then appeared to him in the room would he have been condemed to eternal damnation?
You seem to profess a knowledge of what happens after that last breath is taken. How do you know? What gives you this authority to proclaim what hell is? In regards to souls, have you ever questioned how one is formed or how many there are or will be? Is there a soul factory in space that randomly thows one in to whatever body is going to be born on earth at a particular moment.. In a sense is everything already predestined?
I don’t actually ever understand how anyone can actually know if they are a Christian or not?
The burden of proof should always rest on the person making the claim. If Jesus loves us, he’s going to need to provide some actual evidence of that (beyond the ancient story). Like, say… actually return as promised, or heal people as promised (at least on a regular and demonstrable basis).
I think all Aradia and I are saying is that we see no evidence for the claim that Jesus loves us any more than Santa or Hall and Oates love us (but at least Hall and Oats are real, so there’s still hope). But you’re more than welcome to accept the story on faith if you like.
500 Questions, you always state things so much better than me, lol!
Your last sentence is most welcomed. Here’s to Life!
May I ask you why you believe Jesus loves you? Is it merely because the Bible tells you so, or is there more?
The Christian Gospel states that God dealt with the impass between Holiness and sin through the violent death of the blameless man that hung on the cross at my church. Once I read the Gospels for myself I began to understand and accept this as true. It is by faith that I know that He loves me, but it is by actions that I know that I love Him back.
Jesus loves INI, this he knows, cuz the book of fairy tales told him so.
I was a Christian almost my whole life. My faith did not grow, it shrank, despite prayers and reading God’s Word. What makes your faith different?
May I ask what you were expecting?
I expected that God would fulfill his promise to me. John 14:13-14. “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” I asked for the better part of a decade for God to give me faith, to help my faith grow. Instead, I found myself believing less and less and finally abandoning it all together. My last prayer to God was asking him to reveal himself to me, as he did to Thomas, who also lacked faith completely. Perhaps it’s not his will that I believe. That is, of course, what Christians say when God does not answer other prayers.
Now, I have answered your question. Would you care to answer mine?
Yes… Thomas… that lucky bastard. If Thomas saw the miracles of Jesus IN PERSON and STILL doubted him, what hope is there for us who have never witnessed Jesus NOR received confirmation of his resurrection? So unfair. 😦
If I understand you correctly you wanted Jesus to appear to you visibly (like Thomas) since Jesus promised “anything” would be granted you according to John 14:13. May I point out that you were asking God for faith and to help your faith grow, but what you were actually looking for is PROOF. My faith is not special Matthew, it’s just faith. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things UNSEEN.
Well, no, I think you misunderstood. I asked for a decade for God to help my faith grow. I don’t know faith works. I don’t know why you believe and I don’t. One cannot simply choose to believe something. So I asked God for help, seeing as he should be the expert on faith.
The Thomas prayer was my final prayer to God. This was asking for proof. Thomas also asked for proof, which Jesus was happy to provide him. Why am I any different?
“One cannot simply choose to believe something”. Why not?. “I don’t know faith works” Aren’t you really saying that faith doesn’t work?
I n I:
“I don’t know faith works” should have read, “I don’t know how faith works,” my mistake.
You can choose to believe in something? That’s incredible. Do show me how. Believe that a blue and gold 37 cent coin is now in circulation and features the face of Richard Nixon. Okay, how did you do it? You just decided you would believe it? Did you REALLY believe? I honestly can’t see how someone could simply decide to believe in something. Please explain further.
Also, asking how I am different from Thomas was not a rhetorical question. I truly would like to know why I should not expect the same treatment Thomas got. Is it because Jesus and I weren’t buddies? I’ll bet that’s it. But seriously, why?
I disagree with you that you don’t know how faith works cause I think you do, but you just don’t like what you see. There is nothing to hang your proverbial hat on and that is true. That is Faith.
Selah.
I n I
Well you can argue with me about what goes on in my head, or you can support your statement that belief in something is a choice. I simply don’t see how that’s possible, to choose to believe in something.
@Matthew & I&I
I’ve always wondered… is faith a necessary requirement because God REALLY desires it, or did faith become a requirement of God’s because there was no proof?
I don’t know if it’s possible to ever answer that question, but you have to admit it’s an incredibly convenient, shall we say almost TOO convenient, trait for an invisible (and possibly non-existent) God to desire. In fact, ALL invisible gods seem to require our faith (but perhaps never thought to demand it of us). But strangely, God only appreciates faith when it’s directed at Him, and none of the other gods, but He doesn’t care to use evidence to help us tell the difference.
500, you are right to say that it is impossible to answer that question with certainty.
Matthew, Do you believe in scientific evolution?
From the overwhelming evidence I have seen, both through fossil records as well as present-day experiments where scientists have demonstrated single-cell organisms evolving into multi-cell organisms, I believe that it is both exceedingly likely to have occurred throughout Earth’s history as well as still occurring today. In a word, yes.
From 30 years of being a Christian, 20 of those years fully believing in the miracles of God, I never saw evident that either prayers to God were doing anything, or that Creationist evidence was sufficient for my to believe in those things any longer.
There is one way, without a doubt, that I will believe in Jesus, his resurrection, and his miracles, and that is to receive a visit from the Big Guy himself. As I said before, I cannot think of a single reason why God would not answer this prayer. Of course, I learned in church that my mind cannot fathom the mind of God, so that must be the reason why it isn’t happening.
“exceedingly likely”, sounds to me like you want to believe. No, you choose to believe. You sly dog, you do understand how faith works, cause you have faith in science. Not CERTAINTY, faith. Keep the faith Matthew. I intend on keeping mine.
Really? This is the path you’ve chosen for our discussion? Trying to argue semantics with me? It is “exceedingly likely” that my father is still alive at this moment, although I do not know for sure. Unless I see him face to face, I cannot know with absolute certainty, but it doesn’t requite an act of faith. I don’t have to CHOOSE to believe it. It’s based on what I know to be true. I know that I spoke to him on the phone a few days ago and he was alive, so I’m going to assume nothing has changed.
I have read the results of experiments where single-cell organisms evolved into multi-cell organisms. I don’t need to have faith to believe this happened. Although I didn’t see it with my own eyes, I could invest the time and money to recreate the experiment as it has been documented in a scientific journal and peer reviewed by other scientists.
What is the evidence that anything in the Bible is true? That takes an act of faith, not believing a science experiment. Nice try, I n I. And you still didn’t answer my question about how a person can simple choose to believe in something.
You write a lot of words but say so little. You attack faith but deny that you know how it works. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids. Where did the first cell come from? How did life come from non life? Not theoretically, factually. If you know then you are the only one that does. Instead of asking me how I choose to believe, ask yourself, cause you know.
I n I, if science was able to create life from no life, in a laboratory, consistently and demonstrate how it would happen in nature, would that really satisfy you? Of course not. Science has explained many things that were once attributed to God, but yet here we are, debating the origin of life. Some say, just as evolution has been proven in a lab, spontaneous life will be proven, but it won’t change anything. You have faith, remember?You want to believe something, I get that. I believe in the most plausible explanation and I don’t see how I’m supposed to have faith in God when my own logical thought process makes me think that he’s not real. How is faith supposed to work in someone like me?
@I N I
One could just as easily ask “Where did the first god come from?” and ” How did his life come from non-life?”
If we live in a world where it’s possible for highly intelligent, invisible gods to “just exist” without cause, who are able to call forth something from nothing, then it seems equally probable — and I would argue far more likely — that in that same strange world an unintelligent, tangible, Universe could also always “just exist,” and give rise to FAR less intelligent beings, and it would not be required to magically create something from nothing. The god hypothesis is therefore not only less probable, but also requires for more radical variables, most of which have never been demonstrated to exist. (Silly rabbit.)
By the way, 500, your blog is the reason I finally mustered the courage to stop pretending to be a Christian any longer, over eight months ago. After over a decade of watching my faith slowly fade away, I was paralyzed and miserable and didn’t know how to admit to my friends and family that I no longer believed. Reading your little bio, I realized I could break free from 30 years of indoctrination and live a happy life without being a slave to something I didn’t believe in.
Almost all of my friends turned their backs on me, save a few really old friends, many of whom had also gone through a similar experience. It has been hard in many ways, but it’s good to be real, to be honest. I don’t have to pretend to be outraged at things like same-sex marriage or waste my time going to church every Sunday. I hated how much time it felt like I was losing praying or reading the Bible or going to church every week. On the negative side, I have trouble making decisions now, because I used to just do whatever I felt like and figured God would make it all work out. He is in control of everything after all.
Anyway, I wanted to finally thank you for your insight and your willingness to share your experience with others. Know that you are changing lives for the better.
Sincerely,
Matthew
Thanks Matthew.
Losing faith was a big deal for me, too, and still is. I had to re-examine my values on just about everything (was it wrong to kill? steal? cheat? etc.) But mostly, I found there were pretty good reasons to continue “doing unto others as I’d have them do unto me.” In some ways, I feel like a more ethical person now than when I was a Christian.
But there are some things I still miss about Christianity. Who knows, maybe some day I’ll ask the right question or turn over the right rock and realize folks like “I n I” were right all along! But I doubt it. 🙂
That’s the thing, isn’t it? Christianity would be awesome, it it were true. People like I n I, and I mean no disrespect, think we are choosing to disbelieve, that somehow we are rejecting God because we want to live immoral lives. The image of Jonah turning away from God comes to mind. I think in reality there are a lot of people who would be happy to believe, and might even live happier lives, if there was solid evidence to support the Bible’s claims.
@ Mathew, I greatly respect your input in these conversations and I agree with you on most stuff you have said here. However, when you said: “I think in reality there are a lot of people who would be happy to believe, and might even live happier lives, if there was solid evidence to support the Bible’s claims.” I do disagree.
You see, that would greatly depend on wich Biblical claims we are talking about. I for one, can not fathom the morality of the requirement to have faith, in order to be saved from eternal pain. I mean the necesserity for the existance of hell is constantly defended by this idea of just punishment for criminals who were not caught and punished by human societies during their lifetimes, but what the Bible actually seems to teach is, that only crime by wich you are sent there is not to believe in Jesus. Hitler was a Christian and perhaps he made his peace with Jesus just before he died, so he may very well be in hell, while all my relatives and most of the Indonesian, Indian and Chinese people (just to name the greatest nations on earth) end up in hell regardless what kind of lives they have lived. And this is just one immoral claim the Bible makes.
Even if there were so solid evidence that most people should be smart enough to accept the Biblical truths out right, there would be a portion of stupid people, or people who have cultural bias against it, who would not accept it. A bit like the modern day creationists who regardless of solid evidence for evolution, simply will not accept it. To me it seems utterly unethical, that people should suffer for an eternity just for what they found plausible, be it for good, or bad reasons.
And so now everyone back to their respective lives, faiths intact. I thank you too 500 for sharing, because you are my constant reminder that faith can be lost if one is not careful. To Life!
Question for I n I. I had posted this earlier:. Thomas in the Bible stated he would not have believed in the resurection unless he could feel the wounds Jesus had received on the Cross. If Jesus had not then appeared to him in the room would he have been condemed to eternal damnation? Is it possible that a loss in faith is perhaps what a majority of professed atheists and angostics have, just like Thomas. Are you meant to have faith but others not? How do you choose to have it? Perhaps for some of us it is our doubts which actually save us. I really don’t know. I would hope that if I was born a Mormon, I wouldn’t have faith that a prhophet named Joseph Smith discovered a bunch of gold plates in New York.. We could of had a president who did. Scarry
You seem to profess a knowledge of what happens after that last breath is taken. How do you know? What gives you this authority to proclaim what hell is? In regards to souls, have you ever questioned how one is formed or how many there are or will be? Is there a soul factory in space that randomly thows one in to whatever body is going to be born on earth at a particular moment.. In a sense is everything already predestined?
We evidently needed a Pharoh in Egypt to experince the death of his son as well as the death of all first born in the country to get Moses on is way. Also we needed Judas to play his role with such a sincere regret that he killed himself.
Hey welcome to the conversation. The short answer for all of your questions is JESUS. Still I know that the short answer is no answer if it is not explained in context. Tell you what,read some of my posts at 1commonground and we can continue the conversation after that. God bless you.
Why is it so important to you that agnostics or atheists say they have faith? You do realize that I prayed to God for faith for over 10 years. What is your answer to that? Why didn’t God answer my prayers? Did I not have enough faith?
We can continue this conversation but first I am inviting all of you to follow my blog 1commonground.
500 Questions…I burst out laughing and spit my morning coffee all over my laptop when I read that this answer took you 2 months to research, compile, edit, re-edit, then write! And in the end (sadly I might add) the only readers/people this will truly benefit are the VERY people who try to be respectful & open-minded, or kindly unbiased. Isn’t that ironic? I’ve spent decades of graduate-work (including 3 yrs of seminary), research, dialog, at least attempted civil debate, and thousands of dollars to get down to the roots of Christianity and more importantly the contextual “canonization” process of the New Testament. For me, the long arduous journey paid-off royally!
Bottom-line: the influence, control, & oppression of the Roman Empire machine has greatly distorted the creation of and the canonization of the 325 CE New Testament, i.e. the foundation of modern Christian theology, tradition, and evangelism. This is firmly supported by today’s mere 40+ denominations & splintering of the original Jesus Movement…which was a small group (lead by blood-brother James in Jerusalem) that was comprehensively exterminated by Roman legions in 70-74 CE along with their “heretical” non-Roman-Greco scriptures & teachings over the following 2 centuries by Emperor Constantine’s arch-bishops and of course the Jerusalem banished Roman-Jew Saul of Tarsus (aka Apostle Paul). Whew! Gasp for breath! 😉
I applaud your wise effort 500 Questions! Most people on either side of the controversy won’t do the necessary homework to come to an objective conclusion. Well done Sir.
All I can say is I agree 110% with everything this comment said. You are correct, no one wants to learn the truth for themselves, they just want to believe everything they have been spoon fed. Glad to see there is another thinker out there 😉
Arcadia, I am imperfect sometimes and I try in my humane ways to stay kind & humble. HOWEVER, as you rightly pointed out, I gag when I’m trying to be “spoon fed”. I can and WILL speak my own human experience, lessons, and hence conclusions; emphasis on “my own” — but I do try very hard to make those conclusions “democratically”. Unfortunately, as shown by our U.S. Congress, that vow is overwhelming and frustrating sometimes! LOL
But that “battle” will not budge me from my responsibility as a human from planet Earth with my other fellow humans! Peace and wisdom for all. 🙂
Wow, so far your comments could have been plucked from my own mind, lol. It is very refreshing to speak to someone else who comes to their own conclusions after examining all the evidence. And to be honest, you coming to similar conclusions isn’t even the point. If after examining, you came to different conclusions, I would still respect you for thinking for yourself. Its just nice to speak with someone that did come to similar conclusions.
Agreed. May we use our common-ground to challenge each other too; to become more WHOLE healthy human beings. Right? 😉
By the way, and not that you need to read my post: The Suffering Messiah That Wasn’t Jesus – http://wp.me/p1uLmp-cR – However, it is my attempt to put Roman-Judaic history into contextual perspective. If you’re interested.
That is a very enlightening article. Some things I was familiar with, but others I was not. Thank you for the opportunity to learn more of the truth!
Thank you for taking time to read it. Today many evangelicals or pious-followers overlook the inferred application of that history to a very similar method of expression we Americans (and beyond?) LOVE today: cinema and TV. And sometimes propaganda. Emperor Constantine (and his arch-bishops) finally realized just how potent the “story-telling method” was upon the masses; hence, he seized upon it. Oddly, and eventually into Islam as well, look what has transpired over the last 1,800+ years. Oh the power of emotional pandering/story-telling to ease living suffering, oppression, and death beyond the grave. It causes some people to do most horrendous or coercive things. Is it any wonder how engrossed modern society is with cinema, TV, social-media today? LOL
We LOVE our mega-inspiring stories! We just need to become less pious with them. 😉
Agreed 110%
Thanks Professor Taboo.
I have to admit that the reason I research and write about these questions is a selfish one (I blame that damn “selfish gene,” lol). I’m interested (as are you) in coming to truthful conclusions about our reality and the circumstances we all find ourselves in, and I find researching and writing about these questions to be therapeutic, reassuring and rewarding. But I also benefit greatly from the ensuing conversations, both from those who share some of the same doubts, and from those who would challenge my conclusions.
Thanks for all your comments, I assure you I read and ponder them all, even if I don’t reply to them all. 🙂
Take comfort that dialog, actions, thoughts, all the known senses both internal…and external (as I noticed one of your posts referencing a atomically centric universe) is perhaps ONE Multiverse — ugh, flip cerebral breaker! My point? Death need not be feared. Since coming to grips with the very real paranormal-verse, I’ve had the honor of my ancestors (some “guardian angels”), including my deceased father & my paternal grandmother, console me about that transition. Those revelations have subsequently freed me from the fear of all evil/death that often paralyzes many, and allowed me to love and BE loved increasingly/exponentially…probably to infinity. Which ironically is EXACTLY what all religions aspire. Hmmmm….as C+C Music Factory once sang: “Things that make you go…Hmmmmmm!” 😉
Who has believed our report? God requests an answer not an opinion.Isaiah 53 is about the Lord Jesus of Nazareth point on the line.All who said NO are the persons who are the ones,hear you indeed but understand not and see you indeed but perceive not.He was and is always in front of your eyes and many are not seeing.You have to seek Him in order to see.
Hey Souheil Bayoud,
Seek and ye shall find! This idea is known in psychological circles as “confirmation bias.” If we really want to see Abraham Lincoln in Isaiah 53, we can find him. And if we really want to see Jesus in a seriously disfigured personification of Israel, we can find him. Heck, if we want to see Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich, or a tree stump, or a tortilla, we can find him there, too. The question is, was he INTENTIONALLY put there by God, or are we just seeing him because we’re actively trying to?
Unfortunately, Isaiah 53 contradicts known facts about Jesus and is far too vague to be truly compelling to anyone BUT those seeking Jesus. Confused by why the Jews and others don’t see him in there too, Christians have taken to defending themselves by saying everyone else is blind! Only those who actively SEEK Jesus will find him. Well… of course they will… because they want to… they’re confirming their own bias.
Peace! 🙂
Agreed. Confirmation bias is at play. But that doesn’t mean that the bias hasn’t veracity. My brother Bayoud, it is good to take the response from 500Q as a reminder that God gives faith to whom He will, and in what measure. Peace friends.
What do you mean God gives faith to whom he will. Please explain.
That is the explanation that Christians share with one another for the origins of faith.
Are you a Christian? Can you explain this for someone who is not, or does one have to be a Christian first to understand it?
What he’s really saying is this: God’s selection process is arbitrary and mysterious. Quite ironically, those who are selected are those who believe, and those who believe must be those where were selected!
But does God REALLY just give faith to whom He will? Or were people who believed troubled by the fact that most people didn’t agree with them, so they needed to concoct some sort of explanation? And that explanation was that they must somehow be special compared to everyone else. Everyone else just doesn’t get it, because God didn’t make them special, or didn’t give them enough faith to believe. (I never really understood why people saw Christians as elitist… until I wasn’t one of them.)
But Jews ALSO believe that God has specially chosen THEM by allowing them to be born to Jewish parents. Lucky them! And just like Christianity, it wasn’t because of any works they did, God just chose them to be special because He liked them more than everyone else.
And no doubt there are other groups that also feel specially chosen, but this in and of itself doesn’t actually prove anything. I see this explanation as the brain’s defense mechanism. The brain simply wants to protect a bias it finds valuable for many reasons, so in order to continue believing in the face of everyone else disagreeing with you, you must assume that you are more special than them… somehow chosen… somehow different.
No offense I N I, just callin’ ’em like I sees ’em. Happy Easter! 😉
No offense taken my friend. You’re scholarly approach to debunking the Bible is well grounded and a pleasure to read. Reason alone however cannot explain the holographic universe. There is a Ghost in the machine. GBU 500Q and Happy Easter!
I am but I will not be able to provide an explanation that will satisfy you. If you want to believe that there is more than just time and chance, then you will. If you don’t or won’t, then your time will cease and so will your chance. That’s all there is.
I want to believe I’m going to win the lottery tomorrow; it doesn’t mean I believe it or it’s going to do me any good. How does wanting to believe something make it true or even make someone believe?
Consider that one of lessons that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle teaches us is that the observer affects the observed. Similarly but not identically, your faith produces the effect (or your desire). It may be that God observes the seeking heart and is affected to reward your faith. It is also possible that if you’re seeking to dispel God then that creates an effect as well. Who are you my friend?
What if your only goal is to find the truth? With no bias either way? And that leads you to the belief that God does not exist?
And Pontius Pilate retorted, “what is truth?” I told you that I would not be able to provide an explanation that will satisfy you.
I want God to be real more than anything. I want to see my family in heaven when I die. I want there to be an eternal existence after our time on earth. But, I don’t have faith that any of it is true. What now?
You do have faith my friend albeit very weak. On the other hand your doubt is very very strong. Now it is up to you, as you decide to feed the one and starve the other.
“May the Lord bless you and keep you and may His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you. May the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.”
I’m guessing you feel it best to feed my faith and starve my doubt. I’m not sure how it’s up to me. I believe whatever seems the most believable to me. I’m not trying to believe one thing over another.
Found this quote today on an Islamic website; a response to a Muslim man who was having doubts about his faith:
“…in an age where doubt and confusion are widespread, a work should be studied which allows the beginner to logically understand how it is necessary that this world have a Creator who is unlike His creation, and why Islam’s teachings on the nature and qualities of the Creator make it the indisputable religion of truth. In the case of someone who has doubts, it becomes an obligation to seek that knowledge… Then, once one sees how Islam’s view of God is the necessary truth that accurately reflects and applies to what actually exists, the message from God which carried the proofs for this knowledge and obligated us to believe (al-Qur’an) can be verified as true, after which the Messenger of God (peace and blessings be upon him) can be verified as true, after which one can be convinced, as you asked, of the truth of Islam as a religion in all its various aspects.”
It’s amazing how different religions try to bring doubters back into the fold with promises of truth… yet they can’t agree with other religions about what that truth is. You can feed your faith in Christianity, or Islam, or any other religion, and confirm your own biases — convincing yourself that you’ve found the one “indisputable religion of truth.” But every faith has its doubters — those who are trying to be honest with themselves about the evidence. Perhaps it’s the doubters who are on to something.
I see that you believe in myths as well; that of impartiality. I refer you back to Heisenberg and to quantum physics in general. They will testify that you and I, and every reader are connected beings; for as soon as you observe it you change it. Welcome to the Common Ground, Rich Young Rulers…
Wow, then by your own logic it’s impossible to know the truth in anything, for as soon as you observe it, you change it. Thanks for nothing, I guess.
If I did not help you then do not thank me, cynicism is the refuge of cowards. It is not my logic you feel slighted by but by physics as we know them to date. Take it up there.
Kindly note, we are discussing about a person, who suffered for few days, in the end, He was nailed and killed! (Total of 4 days?)
Compare this death with others like, John the Baptist! whose throat was cut…is one of the example of many…
GTF is perfectly merciful and perfectly just! but for different people, at different time, Very merciful when you deserve it, but very very just, for others who needs judgment!
As we will be punished if we sin, that’s the bottom line, and we are seeing this every day, punished for generations! as told in the first commandment.
Points to ponder:-
1. Jesus, is not only the son of God, so are we.
2. He was conceived by power of the Holy Spirit, only to show, Our GTF’s miraculous power. So he is not son, then who is mother God? (Human thinking)Everyone’s birth is a miracle, only! (ask every mom)
3. He did lot of miracles, but it all based on the faith of the healer, sometimes, He could not do in many occasions as they lacked faith.
4. He was also tested like us, which he passed and we usually fail.
5. He died on cross, as a normal human death.
6…If the disciples really saw him alive again, do you think they would have ever continued to hide? Or Would they come in open to proclaim? still waiting for Holy spirit, you will claim? As resurrected God was with us them now, why would they fear humans who can kill only the body and not the soul!
7. The belief is, He was sacrificed for our sins? Read it again, for our sins! Was it for people who lived before him or after him? What is the validity? As it is now 2014 year after his death! Will this lie continue? Are we given a card to swipe whenever we like? and Jesus will pay my bill?
8. If so, to whom was he sacrificed? As proclaimed till now, Was it, for our GTF (God Thee Father)? Why would GTF accept Jesus as ransom? What a lie!
How they have down graded our Creator! Now Hitlers dialogue “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” (for the past 2000 years!)
Which father on earth itself, will accept his son as a sacrifice to forgive someone else sins forever? Is it not a lie, told for centuries? And we are still believing this naked lie!
9. Jesus ascended into heaven is recorded in Mark 16:19-20, Luke 24:36-53, Acts 1:6-12, and 1 Timothy 3:16, then, how and where was he sacrificial lamb? Is it the way he was killed? Then John the Baptist wins, as his head was cut! Which is more severe? Nailing or cutting the throat?
10. The whole world saw him crucified, but after resurrection he was seen only by his close disciples? How/why?
11. After his death and resurrection, He was with his body as recorded, (when he came to meet Thomas the doubt) then… What would have happened to his body in Heaven where we will be his body among the spirits/souls? Which assumption is wrong?
12. He is coming again, to judge the living and the dead? Is story to keep us in good conduct? Then from his death till now, where are all dead body souls waiting?
13. We are seeing that those who have as sinned suffering or their children suffering for what their parents did, as told in the first commandments.
We know to blame God when we see children in the world suffer, but never take the blame on ourselves as parents, who brought this misery to our children?
Original New true concept_retold
Now most important question, how was the world saved or is being saved by Jesus? We are having same death, misery, suffering all in a better package, then what was before Jesus came, then what is the contribution of Jesus?
Correct me, Trinity concept was introduced, as confusion had started and Nicene-Constantinople wanted to save his kingdom, so each of the protesters can worship as per their belief, but wanted play a safe card, as a King He will be intact?
At least now… can we go back to our GTF (God Thee Father) accepting/adoring Him as our only God!?