51. Was David prophesying of Jesus in Psalm 110?

god-jesus-holy-ghostThe book of Psalms is a collection of songs, most of which are attributed to King David. Many of the Psalms sing God’s praises, many plead for protection and blessings, and a handful are cited by Christians as inspired messianic revelations. I want to take a close look at these messianic verses (here and under future questions) starting with the bomb that is dropped in Psalm 110:1:

A Psalm of David.

The Lord says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for you.”
~Psalm 110:1

Few words in the Bible have stirred up more controversy than, “The Lord says to my lord.” Who was God speaking to at his right hand? And why was David calling this mysterious person “my lord” (or “my master”)?

For Christians, the obvious answer is the messiah. Surely David wasn’t referring to himself as “my lord,” nor was God referring to himself, and so David and God must’ve been addressing someone else of great importance: the messiah!

And so for Christianity, Psalm 110:1 is an important verse, because it suggests that the messiah is more than just an earthly king in the line of David; he’s someone who existed prior to his own birth, and he comes from a position of authority in heaven. (Fun fact: Psalm 110 is also the most frequently cited Old Testament chapter in the New Testament.)

Jesus also assumes that Psalm 110 was referring to the messiah:

Then Jesus said to them, “Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”
~Luke 20:41-44

And Jesus makes it clear that it is he who sits at God’s right hand:

And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
~ Mark 14:62

Notice that Jesus also describes himself as “I am,” an unmistakable reference to the Godhead:

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
~ Exodus 3:14

Charles Haddon Spurgeon sums up David’s “divine revelation” this way:

Though David was a firm believer in the Unity of the Godhead, he yet spiritually discerns the two persons, distinguishes between them, and perceives that in the second he has a peculiar interest, for he calls him “my Lord.”
~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon, The Treasury of David

If David was indeed referring to a second person in the Godhead, this verse would represent a colossal shift in Jewish thinking. But was this really what David was implying?

Who were the two lords?

The Godhead

There’s no question that the first Lord is God, as it’s the Hebrew world “Yĕhovah.” The second lord is much more ambiguous, and is the Hebrew word “‘adown,” which is usually translated as “lord,” “master,” and occasionally “Lord.”

In the early days of Christianity, Jews were of the mind that this second lord was David. We know this because Peter had to combat such thinking (Acts 2:29-34). According to Peter, since Jesus rose from the dead to sit at God’s right hand, and David was still dead, Psalm 110 must be referring to Jesus. This argument works so long as you accept Peter’s literal interpretation of Psalms 110, and his claim that Jesus rose from the dead, and his claim that Jesus now sits at God’s right hand. In other words, it works as long as you’re already a believer.

While Christians still insist this second lord was Jesus, Jews and critics have suggested a few other possibilities: 

  1. According to Rabbi Tovia Singer, the second word used for lord in Psalm 110:1 “never refers to God anywhere in the Bible” and “is used only to address a person, never God.” Rabbi Singer suggests that David wrote this Psalm so that it could be sung by others at the temple, who would understand it to mean: “The Lord [God] said to my lord [King David] ‘Sit thou at my right hand…’”
  2. Others suggest that this was a Psalm of (or about) David, but not by David (not all Psalms were authored by David), so “my lord” is simply a reference to David. 
  3. Another suggestion is that David was quoting a prophecy that was given to him early in his administration, where the prophet refers to him as “my lord.”
  4. There’s a small chance that David is calling Melchizedek his lord. Melchizedek was once the king of Salem who is described as a “priest of God Most High” in Genesis 14:18. David mentions him in verse four, and his name is held in high regard: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You [presumably David] are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.'”
  5. There’s the possibility that we’ve simply misunderstood what David was saying. Perhaps David was putting a poetic spin on this phrase, and the meaning of the expression has been lost to time.
  6. And finally, there’s the possibility that scribes copied this verse incorrectly, or mistakenly labeled it “A Psalm of David,” or that someone retold the story using the words “my lord” in reference to David.


The Missing Psalm

If David meant what Christians think he meant, I mean, if he really did have a spiritual revelation about a second person next to God who was worthy of being called lord and master, I find it wholly inconceivable that David would not bother to elaborate on this massively important spiritual revelation. Perhaps by writing another Psalm about him, perhaps something like this:

Psalm 110.5 (The Missing Psalm)
A Limerick of David

There once was a God named Yahweh,
who had a son in an odd way;
he was fully Him, yet he was also his kin,
and the son of God was known to say:

“I do as my father pleases,
I even sneeze when my father sneezes,
we walk the same walks, and we think the same thoughts,
but I am not him, I am Jesus!”

“I love you,” said God one to God two,
“Because of you I can get things done faster;
so you go and die, while I watch from the sky,
and they can call me ‘God’ and you ‘Master.'”

So to sum up this song, we Jews have had it all wrong,
there are TWO persons in heaven, not one;
the Lord on the throne is the Lord we’ve always known,
and the lord to his right is His son!

Even a crappy Psalm like this one would’ve helped to clarify this new revelation of the Godhead. But David doesn’t elaborate, which suggests to me he didn’t feel there was any need to, because he didn’t feel he was saying anything revolutionary.

Whose enemies? David’s or the Messiah’s?

Rather than elaborating on this new second person of the Godhead, David spends the remainder of Psalm 110 discussing how God would help this person to his right defeat their enemies.

If you’ve read the Book of Psalms, you know that one of the most prevalent themes is how God helps David deal with his enemies, so it stands to reason that Psalm 110 is an extension of that same theme. It seems less likely that Psalms 110 represents a sudden departure from this theme into a nearly identical, but spiritual, version of the same theme, about a heretofore unknown second lord in the Godhead who also, incredibly, needs help defeating his enemies.

Whose feet? David’s or the Messiah’s?

God promises to make the enemies of this person “a footstool,” and we find verses elsewhere that suggest it was David whom God delivered from his enemies, placing them under his feet (not a messiah):

You make your saving help my shield,
and your right hand sustains me;
your help has made me great
I pursued my enemies and overtook them;
I did not turn back till they were destroyed.
I crushed them so that they could not rise;
they fell beneath my feet.
~ Psalms 18:35-38

“You know that because of the wars waged against my father David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the Lord his God until the Lord put his enemies under his feet.”
~ 1 Kings 5:3

Is being at the right hand really such a big deal?

The expression “right hand” is used 35 other times in Psalms, without any of the literal or messianic implications that Christianity places upon this single verse. For example:

I keep my eyes always on the Lord. With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
~Psalm 16:8

Shall we say that God is now subservient to David? Or that David is a part of the Godhead? Certainly not.

For he stands at the right hand of the needy, to save their lives from those who would condemn them.
~Psalm 109:30-31

Now God is at the right hand of the needy! Is this a spiritual insight that teaches us that God is subservient to the needy? Are the needy a part of the Godhead? Certainly not.

And just because a person happens to sit at God’s right hand doesn’t make the expression any more meaningful. The person in Pslam 110:1 is being asked to sit to exaggerate how little effort they will need to expend in order to defeat their enemies. God is not saying, “Sit here, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son!” He’s saying, “Kick back, relax, put your feet up, and have one of these fruity blue drinks with an tiny umbrella while I deliver your enemies to you.”


While it’s possible that Psalm 110 is a spiritual revelation about the messiah, there are a number of issues that serve to undermine that conclusion.

First and foremost, we’re placing a tremendous amount of importance on a verse that’s very ambiguous.

Second, David’s failure to elaborate about this second person suggests he didn’t believe he was revealing anything that warranted further explanation.

Third, war is an ongoing theme in Psalms, along with David’s defeat of his enemies who are placed under his feet, so there’s little reason to believe that Psalm 110 departs from this theme to introduce a spiritual metaphor about a second god who also needs defending.

Finally, even if David came right out and said, “God has a son, and the two rule together in heaven, and God’s son will one day be born as my human offspring,” all Jesus has to say is, “Okay then, I’m that guy.” In other words, this isn’t a prophetic proof-text, it’s just a description of the messiah, and one that’s easy for anyone to lay claim to. It’s one thing to say, “I existed before I was born at the right hand of God,” it’s another to say, “Did I ever tell you twelve about the ice ages? Or how giant lizards once roamed the earth before they all died off?” Jesus doesn’t express anything that would help us to place him before his time.

I wish I could travel back in time and ask King David: “When you said ‘The Lord says to my lord,’ were you implying that the second lord was a second person in a triune Godhead? And that this second person, while separate from God, was also mysteriously one with him, as to still allow for one God? And that one day this second person would be born as your great-great-grandson, who separates himself from God, but still remains one with him?” I imagine David would give me a puzzled look and ask, “What the Sheol are you talking about?”

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33 Responses to 51. Was David prophesying of Jesus in Psalm 110?

  1. Henshaw says:

    The fact that Jesus quotes it is good enough for me. Ultimately everyone has to make the decision. Either he was a stark raving lunatic or the Messiah.

    • Howdy Henshaw,

      If that’s good enough for you, then that’s great.

      For me personally, I know that men aren’t always truthful, and I can’t believe every religious claim that’s presented to me. I would like to know the truth, so I like to investigate religious claims before accepting them as gospel (no pun intended).

      For example, I don’t want to just believe in Santa because my parents said he was real, I want to have very good reasons for believing in Santa. If Jesus (or Santa) checks out, I will believe in him and encourage others to do likewise.

      Also, Jesus may not be lunatic OR the Messiah (sometimes phrased as “a liar, a lunatic, or lord”). This is a false dichotomy (trichotomy). He may very well be something other than these things, such as a legend. The only way to know for sure is to do your homework.


      • Innocent says:

        500 Questions: I’m just wondering how much you have questioned evolution. Evolution is still a theory; yet, so much in this world is based off of that. Evolution is the only “idea” that hasn’t and I quote, “will never be proven” and yet, man builds a lot based on it. When you build things based on lies, they’re bound to collapse, its just a matter of time, believe it.

        Jesus Christ reaffirmed what David said. Also, Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:4 indicates that Christ was the God of the “Old Covenant”, aka old testament. And that corroborates the rest of the Scripture such as Ex. 33:20 and John 5:37 which indicates that no one has seen God or heard Hid voice.

        Your problem is not the answers you’re seeking are not there, the problem is that you’ve looked for the answers with preconceptions you got from protestantism such we go to hell when we die, this is the only day of salvation, Christ died on Friday, et cetera.

        Maybe you’ve this question somewhere: have you asked how its possible for Christ to die on Friday, be buried right before sunset on same day, spend 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS in grave, and still resurrect before sunday morning?

        This defies all logic, still that is what mainstream churches teach and believe.

        • Ermahgerd says:

          “Evolution is still a theory; yet, so much in this world is based off of that. Evolution is the only “idea” that hasn’t and I quote, “will never be proven” and yet, man builds a lot based on it. When you build things based on lies, they’re bound to collapse, its just a matter of time, believe it.”

          I suppose you could apply the same logic to the Bible, couldn’t you? It was written so long ago, there’s virtually no way to prove whether its events really happened.

          On the other hand, we have evidence that evolution exists. Hell, even believers support the idea that the animals we see today come from a set of “root” animals.

          So in that regard, if evolution turns out to not be real, your Noah’s ark story loses any hope of being realistic. It’s the Bible’s loss too.

        • Dr H. Davis says:

          Jesus was crucified on Weds. And 6:30pm was in Jewish reckoning Thursday. Friday 6:30pm was the start of the sabbath or Saturday. He rose by Sunday AM . Three days and nights. See Dr. E. Bullinger’s treatise on three days and night the Crucification.

        • Al says:

          If you go on vacation and check into a hotel on Friday and check out anytime on
          Monday (12am- 11 pm) that would mean you stayed 3days and 3nights) well Jesus check in the tomb on a Friday, went down to hell on a Saturday, talked to The Most High on a Sunday and rose from the grave before Monday.

  2. Henshaw says:

    You are indeed correct that men aren’t truthful. In fact, they’re all liars.

    I don’t really have a problem with the Bible being written by men because I believe in God. If God does exist he is powerful enough to make sure his only communication (the Bible) wasn’t tainted by mankind.

    What kind of God would he be if he couldn’t make sure his book wasn’t distorted? Now plenty of people have read the bible and distorted it through their own incorrect interpretations, but I don’t think the New Testament Gospel is very complicated.

    As always people much smarter than you and I have looked at this and have reached opposite conclusions. It will always be a choice for those of us who haven’t been fortunate enough to see anything supernatural in our lives. In my case, my Dad’s life and his family is enough for me to believe that there’s something more powerful at work than just chance.

    • I get what you’re saying, but logically I’d have to label this special pleading: “All men are liars, EXCEPT the men who wrote my book.” We could likewise reason that all men are liars EXCEPT Joseph Smith, or Muhammad, or the author of someone else’s holy text.

      I’m happy for you that you can use your father’s life and his family as evidence that there’s something more powerful at work than just chance. But I still must wonder why the same God that is willing to let millions of children suffer from starvation, disease, and natural disasters, would also reach out and make a special effort to look after your father and his family. Is he just choosy about who he wants to bless? Or do good and bad things just happen, and we attribute these things to the gods of our choosing?

      Take care,

      • Henshaw says:

        Did I say only good things have happened to my Dad and my family? Everyone will face death in this life. Whether it be now are in the future. If there is a creator, who am I to question things I can’t possibly understand?

        I respect your point of view. Those who seek the truth often find it. We are not here by accident.

        • I’m certain good and bad things happen to many people. In fact, with 7 billion people on the planet, it’s highly probable that extremely unlikely events will occur every day.

          If you feel you can’t question the creator, how exactly did you come to determine (with some sense of certainty) which book was his? There must be SOME reason you selected the Bible and dismissed the others. Maybe it’s a good reason, maybe it’s just wishful thinking.

          If the evidence you’re offering is that we cannot be here by accident, I could likewise reason that God cannot be here by accident. Either God’s spiritual nature always existed, or the physical nature (which we can observe) always existed. It seems much more likely that we simple humans arose from stuff that is known to exist, than a complex God arose from stuff that is not known to exist.

          As much as I’d like to believe in God, I think we all want to believe in him more than we can find solid reasons for doing so.

        • Viv says:

          If we’re all liars, how do we know you’re being truthful?

  3. Ben says:

    Hey, good analysis of this Psalms. Couple things I would add:

    1) In all Hebrew versions the first line reads: A mizmor [Psalm] to David. The “lamed” prefix on David’s name indicates a motion towards, as in ‘to’ or ‘for’. This dramatically changes the context of the entire chapter in that someone else wrote it about David OR David wrote it about himself to be sung by the Levites. In that context, it agrees with all other texts that say David’s line will always rule.

    2) The words of Jesus in Luke 20:41-44 seem to indicate he was arguing against the fact that the Messiah [as they understood it] was in the lineage of David. This would make sense since there were geneology issues surrounding his own lineage.

    3.) You said: First and foremost, we’re placing a tremendous amount of importance on a verse that’s very ambiguous.

    It seems all texts from the OT used to prove Jesus was the Messiah are ambiguous. There is not one clear passage anywhere that says God would be David’s son.

    • Thanks Ben.

      With regards to your first point, do you know of any sources that discuss this further? It’s not something I ran across while researching the topic, but you’re right, this would absolutely change the context of the chapter (though I’m sure Christians would have an equally interesting rebuttal).

      The problem I see with this reasoning is that there are many other Psalms that are believed to be by David that are similarly labeled “A Psalm of David.” So what I typically ran into were Jews and critics either arguing that it was indeed by David, but simply misunderstood, or that the that title was not original.


      • Ben says:

        Well, that’s the problem, we don’t know for sure who wrote them [we don’t have originals]. However, traditional Jewish understanding is:

        Not all the Psalms were composed by king David. Some were composed by Adam, Shem, Abraham, Moses and others. King David collected them all and added the psalms of his own which he had composed by Divine inspiration.
        – chabad.org

        Many of the Psalms as you correctly point out is David lamenting over his enemies and praising over his deliverance, and most of them are written in the ‘first person’. Others, like Ps 110, are written in the third person indicating, to me at least, it was written for him not by him.

        Since David was the one who instituted the priests to be the singers and musicians [2 Ch 23:18, Neh 12:45-46, Ezra 3:10] it makes sense that a lot of the songs were written about him. Though I admit it’s possible David wrote some in the 3rd person to be sung about him.

        If we assume David did write it [to be sung about him], the so called prophecy in Ps 110 was not a new revelation of some future event. It was already told to David that his house [his physical descendents] and kingdom would last forever [2 Samuel 2]. The prayer of Hannah in 1Sa 2:10 also indicates the idea of a last day judgement with the exaltation of the king was well known.

        However, there is no indication anywhere that God Himself would be born in David’s lineage to sit on his [David] throne. Is God David’s son?

  4. 500,

    First, please excuse the length of my comment. I typically cannot do things in severe moderation. *wink*

    Wonderful topic: Messianic prophecies or revelation. I very much enjoy this dialogue with others when the RARE opportunity presents itself. Sadly, it usually does not stay as dialogue.

    Nevertheless, my immediate thought about the meaning of Psalm 110:1 and the Christian interpretation was Lost in Translation; Hebrew-to-Latin or to Greek, then from there all sorts of other languages including Old English, the King James Version. Language in 550 BCE and the oral traditions & methods were ‘contaminated’ with additives by the time it reached the Roman province of Judea and Jerusalem some six centuries later. Then by the time it reached the Scribes of Constantine’s bishops six centuries after that made the ‘impure’ interpretations & translations more diluted and contaminated from the originals. Nevertheless, going back to circa pre- and post-550 BCE, writing was strickly from the wealthy & well educated class, who by the way were ALSO the governors, leaders, King’s and Queen’s courts, etc, etc, and the masses were taught (and for fear of brutal retribution) believed writing to be directly from the Gods or God. Many leaders, emperors, kings, etc, were thought & accepted as divine. This is a context that today readers know little or nothing about.

    I read your delightful post further…

    Mmmm, the Two Lords and Messianic Fervor & Traditions; an often & grossly misunderstood history in ancient Judaism and Early Judeo-Christianity by religious late-comers and followers. Too many times modern Christian apologists (and Christian laymen alike) mistakenly interpret the Judaic double Godhead as an other-than divine spiritual digraph: God Almighty and Jesus. However, ancient traditional Judaism (prior to the Diaspora & following interpretations) meant the digraph was an Earthly Ruler/King along with a Levitic Spiritual (but earthly too) Leader. The reknown Jewish scholar Robert H. Eisenman in his decades of work adequately shows this original Jewish digraph and meaning while also clearly showing Constantine’s (and his bishops) GROSS misunderstanding, or more likely, intentional modifications suitable to he and his Empire’s needs and agenda. That agenda became the Canonical New Testament; an amputated version(s) of what once was a NON-Roman Gentile version. Saul of Tarsus, pushing a neo-welfare system within the struggling socio-economic Roman Empire, is partly responsible for Constantine’s endorsement of it.

    500, your six likely, and ironically Jewish possibilities point-out this later ‘hijacking’ quiet well. I particularly like #1: Rabbi Singer’s version. The other five demonstrate the confusion caused by centuries of conquering of 12 Tribes and the history being written by the victors and the original writers/Scribes/interpretors extinguished. What a mess, eh?

    Hah! Found it interesting that the next section you cover is called “The Missing Psalm.”

    “Ambiguity.” A very handy method/tool for those in the business of governing and control. Mystify the masses, awe them, and you can more easily rule them. It’s even more easy if the original authors, Scribes, interpretors, teachers…are all dead or imprisoned or out-of-pocket for verifications.

    Now, there is possibly one other interpretation of David’s (or whomever’s) Psalm 110:1…

    Quantum Connectivity and other fields of Quantum Mechanics are increasingly revealing secrets (laws?) of the Cosmos/Universe/Multiverse in which our meek fragile planet (and its even MORE tiny fragile inhabitants) that there is no such thing as 7.14 billion individuals. They, we, it, them, those…are all part of One; from the largest macroscopic (e.g. our seemingly infinite Cosmos, matter & anti-matter included) down to the atomic-scopic of Quantum Mechanics…it is all joined together, connected…

    …like the Psalm is trying to say! *wink*

  5. Garbonzo says:

    I think you need to update your Index, boss. =)

    I don’t know if I mentioned this before, but do you plan to tackle the apologist claims that “God is unknowable and therefore cannot be questioned”? Thanks!

    • Howdy Garbonzo,

      You mean like with ignosticism? Or do you mean more like God’s reasons for his actions are unknowable because we can’t comprehend his thinking? (Something akin to describing to an ant how a TV works.)

      I see the latter one come up often as an excuse. E.g. “We don’t know why God allowed that young girl to get raped and murdered, but when we get to heaven I’m sure we’ll understand things from his point of view.”

      (At the moment I’m working on a special post that will appear next to the Index link above that deals with the struggles we face when wrestling with doubt. Then I’ll return to the regular questions.)

      • Highlander says:

        Looking forward to that 500q. Trawling the web reveals that there is nothing quite as succinctly, logically and politely compiled as your blog. The struggles when wrestling with doubt are constant and I look forward to your views. For eg. If you give up on god, who do you get angry at for all the injustice? There is no outlet for that anger anymore. Who woulda thought that would represent a problem.

  6. Lindsey says:

    I have a question for you, 500 Questions.
    I had my daughter a year ago Christmas Eve, and since then have struggled with how the good, loving god that I had always believed existed, could allow so many of his “children” to suffer disease, starvation and poverty, where I, in all my imperfection, would do anything possible to keep my child (indeed any child) from harm or suffering. While my head has always known god didn’t really add up, I always managed to excuse it with “for the bible tells me so” & “we can’t understand his plan” rhetoric.
    I feel abandoned, and am concerned as to how this will effect my relationships with my very close, very religious family. I’m experiencing a profound sense of loss and sadness, almost as though I’m mourning a loved one. In your experience, is this something that normally accompanies a spiritual about-face? If so, do you have any suggestions for how to help myself feel more secure in my new-found (non)belief? I have lingering fears of hell fire and damnation from almost thirty years of religious practice, and am very uncomfortable in this agnostic place in which I now find myself. Any suggestions at all would be helpful, as I have been reduced to googling “crisis of faith” at 3am, and ending up in tears.
    Thank you

    • Garbonzo says:

      Aw, I was touched my your story. I have been down your path, as 500Q has also. You are not the first and you will not be the last.

      > I have lingering fears of hell fire and damnation from almost thirty years of religious practice

      This is normal. It has been 2 years or so after I decided I was actually an agnostic atheist and I still get them sometimes. “Am I doing the right thing?” “Is my reasoning correct?” “What if I’m wrong?” etc. The more time goes by, the quicker those thoughts are shut down however.

      I think that you not only need to learn why believing is illogical, but also learn critical thinking in general, such as learning to research and question things.

      Tagline for Science Channel: Question everything.

      Speaking of science, keep watching cool stuff about science. Science and rationality in itself has replaced ALL of my religious beliefs, such as hope for living forever, peaceful living in Heaven, etc. Now I’ve realized how much COOLER science is than any religion. You never hear about virtual reality and robots in Heaven, which is so much better than playing harps and sitting in clouds. Why? Because not only can you have that in something like virtual reality, BUT you can also have ANYTHING you can dream or think up. Why not try going back in time to medieval times, or with the dinosaurs, or in early human civilization and see how life was as a peasant or a king, or a hero, or a villian, or WHAT THE HECK EVER???? Your “Heaven” won’t be limited to what one (or a few) guys or gals dreamt up, but YOUR OWN dreams. And we are getting closer to true virtual reality every day. Ever seen Minority Report where there are people going into virtual reality machines? Only eventually the technology will be in every home…you wouldn’t need to go to a place like that. The technology would interact with our brains directly, so it would be exactly like real life, none of this conduit nonsense like the Occulus Rift (even though that’s cool…for now).

      Then robots would be doing almost everything for us. The only work we’d ever have to do is creative work that needs high intelligence.

      This stuff is in the far future, but if we could hit “longevity escape velocity” (look it up), we will at least have a very long time (providing we don’t get killed unnaturally) to enjoy it all, if not eternity (this would rely on the fact if we can prevent this universe from dying or perhaps escape this universe to another suitable one).

      The point is we can still have hope in something a lot more certain than a “Heaven”.

      Helpful websites for that: http://www.reddit.com/r/transhuman

      http://www.reddit.com/r/singularity (and I’m sure those subreddits link to good material in their sidebars also).

      For a community that understands what you’re going through and will give you words of comfort and encouragement, try posting your story to this website:




      This FAQ may also be helpful:


      I just realized this stuff (science, philosophy, rational thought, critical thinking) might help with depression (depending on what’s causing it). It CERTAINLY helped me with mine. I’m almost depression free now (free being depressed serveral times a week to 1 day every 2 months or so, which is probably more normal than not). I look on to my beliefs with gloom, like you would remember a cloudy day. Science is my new hope, and I now believe that HOPE is really the (or part of the) cure for this sort of depression (not caused by a mental illness). I believe this is why you see so much newly-converted folk say how much better it is than their previous life. It’s the hope that religion gives them from EVERYTHING crappy about their lives. Finding out religion is all bull and not replacing it with other kinds of hope I can imagine could be debilitatingly depressing (as what happened to me shortly after I left; I wasn’t AS depressed, but “what was the point of life anymore?” was my view).

      This video which will help when you get doubts and start to think, “What if I’m wrong? What if I go to hell forever?” You really have nothing to worry about and this video will show why it’s a stupid question to ask yourself! =)

      Hope this helped a bit, and don’t be afraid to ask any questions you want! I’m hear to help, and I like doing that. =)

    • Garbonzo says:

      My first comment is awaiting approval, but I forgot the video link. Doh!

      Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iClejS8vWjo

    • Garbonzo says:

      Oh, and continue to go through the articles on this site! They are really well done and expertly made in my opinion. It will help strength your *reasoning* (not your faith. faith is for things that don’t make sense but you do them anyways, this makes sense) that agnosticism is the most logical route.

      • Lindsey says:

        Thank you so much Garbonzo! The video was exactly what I have needed. It’s been so hard for me to get all my thoughts together, and to accept that I can’t force myself to believe something that I can’t make sense of, just because it’s expected. Thank you again!

    • Hi Lindsey,

      Garbonzo suggested a lot of great links. I’m currently working on an addition to this site titled “Is there life after God?” that deals with this subject in detail. It should be done soon.

      I too felt a huge sense of loss when I first doubted, like you mentioned, it was very much like mourning the loss of a close friend. I think this is normal, because we’ve lost something we thought we’d always had.

      And no one wants to go to hell, and hell was is probably part of the reason I started researching these topics in such detail. I haven’t written on the topic of hell just yet, but I think it’s a very powerful motivator. Of course, Muslims threaten hell for those who believe Jesus is God… so you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I now see it as a fear fallacy that works by threatening people with something that may or may not exist, and you have to explore the validity of the other facts before you can determine whether or not it’s something you really need to fear. In the words of one of my favorite songs:

      What am I afraid of?
      Who did I betray?
      In what medieval kingdom does justice work that way?
      If you knew what would happen
      And you made us just the same
      Then you my Lord can take the blame

    • Alpha says:

      Hi Lindsey, I second Garbonzo, I really recommend going through this website, it truly is the most neutral, reasonable, and fun site on this topic (kudos to you 500Q!).🙂 And I promise after reading it you will start seeing things a little differently. Also, yes science is pretty amazing. You don’t have to understand all the details and maths of it all, to see how it all just makes sense. And when you realise how the whole world is working around you, it’s really almost a religion in itself. (No I’m not making a cult here! :P) I hope you find what you’re looking for Lindsey =)

      • Lindsey says:

        Thank you 500Q, Alpha & Garbonzo. You all have been so helpful. I live in the Deep South, in the middle of the Bible Belt, and have no one to discuss this subject with reasonably, and without fear of being accused of demon possession. Kidding.. (Sort of).
        Thank you again.

        • Highlander says:

          Lindsey. You certainly aren’t alone is feeling you’ve lost something. It’s a huge loss and very real. The ‘why bother living now’ thing is a huge concern. I know I’m not alone in checking this site everyday as we await the ‘Is there life after god’ section. Don’t feel alone because you’re in good company here. There is much love amongst the posters on 500’s site. Cheers.

          • You really check the site everyday for that post? Wow, I’m flattered. It’s almost finished (I’ve been busy with the holidays and preparing to move). It’s a bit lengthy, I have a lot to say on that topic, but I can assure you there is plenty to live for (like my next post, lol).

            • Garbonzo says:

              There’s really not anything to live for. We shouldn’t kid ourselves. Our lives don’t matter in this universe, at least with not any certainty. The reason why we should keep living is because of hope. Hope that perhaps we can live forever, or live long enough until we feel like dying. Or hope that there is somehow more to life. That’s the reason why we keep living, but that’s not the reason for why we are here. There’s no answer to that. But alas, you run a blog, and it’s your job to go into all of the details on a certain subject, and maybe embellish a little.😉

            • Highlander says:

              Yep. Not here today. Check again tomorrow.🙂

  7. Jenna says:

    I think it makes sense that The trinity makes no sense to humans. God created us, we did not create God. Also David seems to confess his sins a lot and seeks forgiveness. This points to a Savior.

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