For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
~ Colossians 1:16
God’s creation of Satan is one of the most perplexing and counter-intuitive ideas in the Bible. Even if we can somehow manage to acquit God of the charge of creating evil itself, he is still guilty of creating Satan, an entity whom he knew would turn evil. So I’ve gotta ask: what on earth was God thinking?
Jesus: “Hey dad, whatchya doin’?”
God: “Creating an angel who will rebel against me and bring horrible pain and suffering to mankind.”
Jesus: (Spitting out his holy water) “WHAT!? Why!? Why would you do that?”
God: “Well, I want to create some worshipers who will love me and love what is good. In order to have that, I need them to experience both good and evil, so they can freely choose the good.”
Jesus: “Okay… go on.”
God: “Well, if they are truly lovers of good, and they see me doing evil, the won’t love me, will they? Also, I am perfectly good, so I couldn’t do evil even if I wanted to. That’s why I’m creating ‘Satan,’ an angel who can do evil and take all the blame.”
Jesus: “But won’t the humans just blame you for creating this ‘Satan’?”
God: “Na, I’m not going to make them that smart.”
Jesus: “But still… whether you do evil, or you create someone who does, it’s still you instigating it; Satan can’t do evil if you don’t create him. Also, how can a perfect God even make an imperfect thing?”
God: “Son, you are waaaay over-thinking this. All you need to understand is this: God good, Satan bad. Satan will tempt the humans into sinning, do a bunch of evil, and try to steal their souls. That’s when we — and by we, I mean you — swoop down and save the day! Ta da! We’ll be like superheroes! And in the end, I’ll show everyone how good I am by casting Satan into the lake of fire for all the evil he did.”
Jesus: “You mean… all the evil you did. How about you just show everyone how good you are by not creating Satan?”
God: “Son, you don’t understand, I need Satan. If there is no Satan, Adam and Eve will never sin, and –”
Jesus: “Wait, hold on… never? Are you sure?”
God: “Sure I’m sure. I would much rather they sin of their own accord, that way all the responsibility for the fall rests on them, but they’re just not taking the bait.”
Jesus: “So… let me get this straight; you’ve set up this forbidden tree, and they’re not biting, so you think they need a little more… motivation?”
God: “Ya, just a little push in the wrong direction.”
Jesus: “And if you don’t create Satan, the fall will never happen, and everything will remain perfect and good?”
God: “Yes, and that’s a problem.”
Jesus: “So… you are orchestrating the fall?”
God: “No. Yes. Probably. Maybe. Indirectly. But I assure you it’s for a good reason.”
Jesus: “If it’s for a good reason, why not just explain to them that it’s in their best interest to sin?”
God: “Because, I’ve already told them to never eat of the tree, so if I go down there now and try to talk them into it, I’ll look ridiculous. And besides, I don’t tempt people, only Satan does (James 1:13).”
Jesus: “You don’t tempt people!? What do you call that forbidden fruit tree in the middle of the garden?”
God: “Um… ornamentation?”
Jesus: “So you create the temptation, and you create the tempter… but you still deny any wrongdoing?”
God: “Correct. The way I see it, I’m creating a good angel, it’s not my fault if he chooses to do evil.”
Jesus: “But you already know he will! Ugh… let me try to describe the problem in a way I think you’ll understand. There once was a man who hated his brother and wanted to kill him, but he didn’t want to become guilty of sin. When the man heard about a violent slave who had killed his last two masters, the man went and purchased the slave, and gave him to his brother as a gift. Now, if the slave kills his brother, whom will you find guilty of sin?”
God: “That’s easy, I would find them both guilty; the slave for the act of murder, and the man for giving the slave to his brother when he knew full well he was going to… oooohhhh, I see where you’re going with this.”
Jesus: “Good, so you understand that if you create Satan, knowing full well what he will do, then you are every bit as guilty. If you are perfectly good, you cannot create something that will do evil, and if you do — and you are perfectly just — you must cast yourself into the lake of fire for bringing such evil into existence.”
God: “Whoa, hold on there! I’m also a God of mercy! Can’t I just figure out a way to forgive myself? Or cast you into hell in my place?”
Jesus: “It’s always about the loopholes with you, isn’t it?”
All jokes aside, is it reasonable to believe that a perfectly-good, all-knowing God would create anything that would result in the production of evil? Surely a perfectly-good God would have some sort of zero-tolerance policy on evil, and would bring any evil to a quick end… but he doesn’t.
The Christian rebuttals
Believers almost universally maintain God’s innocence when it comes to doing any evil, and they typically defend God’s creation of Satan by making one (or more) of the following claims:
- God created a “good” angel named Lucifer, who turned evil of his own free will.
- God has a good reason for creating Satan, but it’s a mystery.
- God uses the work of Satan to help him “manifest his glory.”
- You can’t have freewill without Satan.
1) God created a good angel named Lucifer, who turned evil of his own free will.
But just because God created Satan, does not mean that He created him as an evil being. Rather, God created him good, and then he chose to become evil.
~ Eric Lyons, M.Min., Has Satan Always Existed?, Apologetics Press, 2005
I’m surprised how often this answer is given without any further explanation, as if God simply didn’t know Satan would turn evil.
How could God consider Satan “good” when he knew he would turn evil? This is like a car manufacturer calling his cars “good” when he knows the engines will blow-up after 50,000 miles. To call them “good” is either a lie or incredibly shortsighted.
If God knew Satan would become evil, and chose to create him anyway (as opposed to skipping him and creating a different angel, or creating him with different desires, or not creating anything at all), God is responsible for the consequences.
Imagine, for example, that you traveled into the future and saw that your future child was responsible for the torture and death of millions of innocent people. Knowing this, would you choose to conceive this child? If you did, knowing what would happen, do you think you are at least somewhat responsible for the outcome?
Knowing the future puts you in a unique position to change it. If you conceive this child knowing what will happen, then you become an accessory to these crimes (morally speaking), because you could’ve easily prevented them. Likewise, if God knew Satan would turn evil, he had the opportunity to prevent evil by simply choosing to forego his creation.
Even if God didn’t know the future, he is all-powerful, and able to stop Satan. In fact, by not stopping him, God gives his approval for everything he does.
Again, imagine you have conceived this child, and that you are also able to stop him by simply asking. If your child turns to you before every evil deed and asks, “Is this murder okay?” “Is this rape okay?” “Is this torture okay?” If you answer “Yes,” “Yes,” and “Yes,” can you still claim to be wholly innocent?
You cannot pull the trigger and blame the bullet for the outcome. Likewise, you cannot be the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of all things and deny responsibility for your own creation.
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
~ Isaiah 49:5
2) God has an explanation, but it’s a mystery.
Let me go right to the first question that everyone always wants to ask: if God knew Satan was going to do what he did, then why did God create him? Remember, I told you that the scripture said in Deuteronomy 29:29, “The Secret things belong to God.” There are just things that we can never know until we get to heaven.
~ Jennifer Mills, To You with Love from Jesus: Fifty of the Most Commonly Misinterpreted Scripture Truths from the Bible Revealed, p. 48… God created Lucifer, the angels that chose to rebel, and people because He wanted to… We also need to realize that there are things we do not fully understand. God has a wonderful plan that stretches into eternity, full of things that we “do not know.” It is important to remember that God is in control and that He promises to work everything (even the bad things) together for the good of those who love Him. Sometimes we need to trust Him and walk in faith.
~ AnswersInGenesis.org, Kids Feedback: Why Did God Create Lucifer?, April 14, 2011
We’ve seen this excuse before, because it’s a wonderful catch-all for any problem that cannot be logically explained. This rebuttal does not offer any explanation, it just posits one exists, and places it just out of reach on the other side of death.
As previously stated, this kind of excuse can be employed by any religion to defend any problem. If a Muslim approaches a Christian and says, “Don’t worry about the difficulties you perceive with Islam, all these things will be explained away in the afterlife!” I don’t think the Christian would be convinced. It’s special pleading to argue, “My logical absurdities will all be explained in the afterlife, but yours will not.”
It’s also important to understand that we are not simply asking God to explain a mystery — a mere gap in our knowledge — we are asking God to make the illogical logical. Can God create a circular square? Can he make down also be up? Or black also be white? Can he make the south also be west? Can he be perfectly good and create evil? Or all-powerful and not responsible? (And don’t even get me started on the trinity).
Isn’t it enough that God asks us to believe in an invisible, intangible, and eternally elusive God? Must he also demand we have faith in the illogical? Does God purposefully disguise himself as nothing to test our faith? And then go so far as to make himself illogical, that he may test our faith against our god-given ability to reason?
3) God created Satan to help “manifest his glory.”
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness.
~ GotQuestions.org, If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?God has ordained that Satan have a long leash… because he knows that when we walk in and out of those temptations, struggling both with the physical effects that they bring and the moral effects that they bring, more of God’s glory will shine in that battle than if he took him out yesterday.
~ John Piper, Why does God allow Satan to live?
There are several problems with this line of reasoning.
First and foremost, we cannot admit that God knew Satan would do evil without also inferring that God desires evil. God now has a motive to conduct evil, and he wields it as a means to an end. This understanding of God makes it difficult to later claim that there is no evil in God, or that he does not desire evil.
Second, a perfectly good God would never use “good” ends to justify “evil” means, it’s just not in his nature. A perfectly-good God would have to say, “This plan requires the introduction of evil, and because there is no evil in me, I cannot knowingly produce it. It would be better that nothing be created.”
Third, assuming the use of evil is justifiable for the greater good, God should not be labeling Satan’s works as “evil.” Satan’s actions are actually good, for without them the “fullness of God’s glory” could never be realized. God (and Jesus) should be continuously thanking Satan for helping him bring about this greatest good, not chastising him and casting him into a lake of fire.
Forth, what exactly is this “greater good”? How this can this be “a greater good” when the majority of mankind end up in hell? Wouldn’t the “greatest good” have been not creating humans at all? To spare billions from suffering?
Fifth and finally, if we believe that every bit of evil that exists is absolutely necessary in order to bring about a greater good, this thinking leads us to some bizarre conclusions. For example, we probably shouldn’t attempt to reduce suffering, lest we inadvertently prevent the greater good that God is trying to accomplish. If God did not want this evil to exist, it wouldn’t exist, and therefore we shouldn’t try to stop it. Pain and suffering are good for us!
Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus – a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you.
~ Mother Teresa
4) You can’t have freewill without Satan.
Satan himself rebelled against God without anyone tempting him, and in the very presence of God, no less; thus proving an evil tempter is not a prerequisite for exercising free will. Adam and Eve had the forbidden tree, all they had to do was freely choose to eat of it.
It’s safe to assume Adam and Eve would not have eaten from the tree had it not been for Satan, for surely it would’ve been preferable for them to sin of their own free will, so all the blame would rest squarely on their shoulders. God could then say, “I gave you absolute free will, and while I knew you would sin, you just proved my point.” Once you involve Satan, the blame is transferred to him, because it can be argued that Adam never would’ve sinned had it not been for this interference. This blame then gets transferred back to God, who created Satan and allowed him to tempt Adam. Ergo, God triggered the fall.
Conclusion
If God created everything, and God is perfectly good, then it stands to reason that all of his creations would be perfect… yet evil abounds. In order to explain this discrepancy, believers posit that evil springs from free-willed creations, and not from God. However, if God is all-knowing, then he can prevent evil by not creating evil beings like Satan. And even if God somehow did not know Satan would turn evil, God should not have risked creating him, or used his absolute power to stop him.
Some believers resort to redefining words like “good” and “evil” to the point where they lose all practical meaning; while others try and re-define the very nature of God, to allow for a good God that also does evil. But most will simply throw up their hands and say, “We have to wait for God to explain these things in the afterlife,” (though they are unwilling to accept this kind of reasoning when it is offered by competing faiths).
Bottom line: I don’t think it’s reasonable to believe that God would create Satan. I think the real reason this problem exists is because too many impossible demands have been placed upon God’s character. The God of the Jews had to be more powerful than all the other neighboring gods; he had to be the best, the strongest, the wisest, the oldest, the first, the last, the most benevolent, and (eventually) the only. We like our God to be absolutely perfect, the problem with this is that, if God is perfectly good, evil should not exist. The faithful have tried to patch this problem by offering Satan as a scapegoat, but then people asked: “If God made everything, why did he create Satan?” And we are back where we started.
So we can choose to hope against reason that our invisible, intangible, elusive, and illogical God will explain all absurdities in the afterlife, or we can assume the Bible’s description of God is fundamentally flawed. If the latter is the case, at worst, we add God to a long list of deities that have become victims of rational thought; at best, God exists, but he is either weaker or more malevolent than the we have imagined.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~ Epicurus
500 Questions about God & Christianity 
Good and thorough answer to this question. I think my old religion had the best apologetic I’ve ever heard for it however.
Touching on your point that people have to change the very nature of God, this is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do. God is not fully omniscienct to them! He actually doesn’t know all things, or everything that will ever happen in the future, but he is still Almighty, because he has *the capacity* to know all things, but *he chooses* not to.
To explain their apologetic, I’ve often thought how cool it would be to have the power of omniscience, but I realize the human brain would not be able to hold such a power without our brain dying, going insane, or what have you. (what happens when your brain is over-capacity I wonder?) So I figured out a loop-hole in my day dreaming. What if you had an invisible helper that goes around with you wherever you go, and you can ask it *any* question you want, and it will answer it for you? That way, you only get the information you want to know, and you aren’t overloaded with everything all at once.
Well that’s similar to what JWs believe. God doesn’t know everything, but if he chooses to see into the future he can. (they explain it by saying, a Hotel Manager has the power over the whole Hotel and is ultimately first in command of the Hotel at a given time, but he doesn’t use his power to look inside every door to every room and invade people’s privacy)
So God didn’t know Satan would become evil. Then why didn’t he kill Satan once he turned evil? Again, they have an apologetic for that also. They say Satan challenged God straight up. If God deleted Satan right then and there, the other angels looking on would still wonder if what Satan said was true, and it wouldn’t be loving to them to leave that question unanswered (so you reach a paradox, you aren’t loving if you do this, but in order to alleviate that, you have to allow evil) and there is only one way to prove it to them that Satan was wrong. It also wouldn’t be loving to delete any angel just for judging God’s rule. After all, they didn’t do anything evil yet, they are just being a bit disloyal. You might say, who are the angels to question God? But you would too if you were them, for all they know, God could just be some alien with ultra-high technology, and not Almighty, and omni-everything. And for a fact, nobody could ever know the truth, BUT, if God can prove his Almightiness at every opportunity, even if that means allowing evil, it is necessary, because he needs to prove himself, even as an Almighty God, simply because of his creations, and his loving attitude.
So there you go. Do you see problems with this apologetic?
I think there are better questions than this one which they DONT have a clever answer to, like they do for this question.
As an example of a question they don’t have an answer to: Why does it have to take this long to prove that Satan was wrong? That should have been answered pretty soon, if not with Cain and Abel, then with any number of wicked Bible events. The matter should have been settled long ago. Why on Earth would it take over 6000 years????
You are met with the answer #2: God has an explanation, but it’s a mystery.
Why give us a book that answers some questions but not all, from an Almighty Creator???
Why does it have to take this short to prove that Satan was wrong? See, long and short in terms of time is relative to something.
Why give us a book that answers some questions but not all, from an Almighty Creator? What kind of questions are unanswered? Again maybe, we are to sense all with our SENSES instead our eyes reading a text.
Again, remember, I think I read a text before about, not a single human will survive unless God cut the time short for those few believers, something like that. This means that I think most of the questions are answered, the rest is for our minds to think and act free willingly.
The freewill argument is an excellent argument.
The atheist mistakenly believes that just because God knows the future that somehow God’s foreknowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the issue.
If Lucifer was free to do as he pleased and chose to do evil, why is that God’s fault?
It isn’t.
Yet the atheist blames God for the evil that others have freely chosen to commit.
This demonstrates that atheist thinking, like all leftist thinking, based on blaming misfortune on the most powerful party and creating a victim out of the party that actually committed the evil.
It’s called the politics of victimization.
Hi silenceofmind,
“The atheist mistakenly believes that just because God knows the future that somehow God’s foreknowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the issue.”
With all due respect, foreknowledge has everything to do with the issue, because it allows you to know whenever suffering will result from your actions.
Taking the example from above, if you KNEW your future child would FREELY choose to torture and kill millions of people, would you STILL choose to conceive this child? Does your foreknowledge affect your decision at all? Why or why not?
“If Lucifer was free to do as he pleased and chose to do evil, why is that God’s fault?”
This is like asking, “If my child was free to do as he pleased and chose to do evil, why is that my fault?” If you had foreknowledge of this evil, you would be morally obligated to prevent it if possible.
“Yet the atheist blames God for the evil that others have freely chosen to commit.”
This is like asking: “Why do people blame me for the evil my child has freely chosen to commit?” And again, it’s because you knew what would happen, and you chose to conceive him anyway.
If we are going to insist that God is perfectly good, and he knows the future, then it is his moral obligation to prevent suffering where possible, just as it it ours.
Hugs and kisses,
500Q
I think this answer showcases more than just question #56, I think it is commentary on the idea of free will, which I think is *contradictory* to a “God of good”, where everything God does is good.
If you created humans knowing they would do bad, it’s the same idea as creating Satan knowing he would do bad. The central theme is free will. You can’t have free will and claim you are also completely good. If you like the idea of free will, you have to realize that also creates evil. So by creating free will, you are creating evil.
Hi Garbonzo!
Yes, free will is indeed a big part the conversation, but I don’t think creating free will necessarily makes God evil, it just makes evil a possibility. That being the case, a good God would have to be extra careful to avoid this possibility, by ONLY creating beings that would NOT choose to rebel (or God could avoid the risk by not creating anything at all). If for some reason someone did rebel, a good God would bring a quick end to it in order to prevent any increase in suffering.
Now, one might argue that one doesn’t truly have free will if God brings you to a quick end for doing evil, but I would argue that one never has free will when the threat of eternal damnation is constantly hanging over your head. (Just one more thing that shouldn’t exist if a good God is in control.)
But Satan in particular is such a nasty creation, one wonders why God would even bother. I think we could’ve gotten along fine without his added interference.
500Q
“If for some reason someone did rebel”, God would have created evil by creating free will. But is it free will if God only creates good human beings?
Theoretically, yes, everyone would have free will, but no one would desire to test it. (And if a test is required, it only needs to be tested once to prove that it exists.)
Then you have to wonder why God just didn’t do that to begin with. Create everyone good ad righteous, right? The common apologetic to this is free will. If you say it can still be free will, then there is a differing of philosophy (for lack of a better word) there then I suppose.
I can see where you are coming from. According to the Bible, did Jesus have free will ? If yes, then why not make everyone in the same way to Jesus? Have free will, but never acting on sin. It’s not that you can’t sin, or don’t have the capacity to sin–that would remove free will–it’s that you don’t want to.
Perhaps that didn’t make sense if you believe in, or are familiar the most with, the Trinity, which is a doctrine I am not familiar with, but this reminds me of the question, “Is there free will in heaven?” Here’s a (somewhat shallow) article on it: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=4016
Here is an apologetic response: http://carm.org/about-God-freewill-heaven
I find the apologetic tryhard. They certainly tried their best, but it still falls short. Most of the article is supplementary to the real paragraph here:
> What about in heaven? Isn’t it true that in heaven, people have freedom but do not sin? Yes, but people in heaven have knowledge of sin that Adam did not have before he fell.
In heaven, the redeemed will be able to fully know the contrast between God’s goodness and the horrendous effects of evil. With glorified minds and bodies, they cannot possibly choose evil. Could God have given man that knowledge beforehand? God did give Adam the warning (Gen. 2:17), but mental knowledge is different from experiential knowledge. Having experienced the full effects of sin and the presence of God, one will not decide to turn back to sin.
If the only way you can have no sin is to first have the experience of sin, then you could say that God purposely set Adam up to fail. According to this logic, it would have been impossible for him to remain righteous for eternity, because he had that potential for pride and sin!
And if this were in fact the case, then how are there angels in heaven that remain righteous, without blemish? Before Adam, they did not “experience sin”.
Next, if “mental knowledge” is different than “experiential knowledge”, then is there some problem with God giving man that “experiential knowledge” beforehand? I see no reason why not. In there future there will be simulations that will be indistinguishable from real life. You could actually have the experience of war, being in another place on Earth, or another planet or moon, without actually doing these things or being in these places at all. If man is able to theoretically do that (this is no reason this will not be possible in the future), then surely God could also. A simulation of evil means God would not have to create real evil, right?
Have you answered that question, or plan to? I suppose it is very similar, but it’s a good point to further help get the idea across.
I have to wonder how it would even be possible for humans to remember “the horrendous effects of evil” when the Bible also promises, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev. 21:4). To recall the “horrendous effects of evil” would surely bring one to tears, especially if you had remembered loved ones who didn’t make it to heaven.
A simulation of evil is one alternative, and it’s “fun” to speculate about all the other things God COULD have done better. For example, God could just create spirit beings (no need for flesh, really) and then say, “Hi, I’m God, I just created you! Feel free to live here with me in my idea of perfection, or travel to the evil world called ‘hell’ if you prefer to practice unbridled evil, though you’re welcome to return here if you find it’s not for you. You can also choose to create your own world, filled with whatever ratio of good to evil you feel is right for you, I’m not here to judge. Should you decide you don’t care for this existence, please let me know and I will erase you from it.”
That’s a God I could get behind.
Haha wow, I never thought about that. Very good point!
To create is a lack. God does not create because God has ALL (If God does not have all, then God is lacking. And why would we care to waste time and effort discussing a lacking being?) Therefore, God does not create Satan or ANY beings whatsoever. Similarly, contrary to popular belief, to choose (free will) is a lack. A lack has no value. God does NOT choose because God has ALL , and therefore, does not have free will.
500 Questions, in your stimulation, evil doesn’t exist in the first place, hell doesn’t exist in the first place. Good and evil is not two variable. Evil is the absence of good.
Hi thinkingmind,
Even this were true, God still chooses to create opportunities for these absences to exist.
However, the way I’ve usually heard it stated is that evil is the absence of good, the way dark is the absence of light. Likewise, you might say that silence is the absence of noise. But the absence of light or noise does not crate “evil” light waves or “evil” sound waves, it is simply the absence of those waves. So for this analogy were to hold true, the absence of “good” should be the absence of any activity.
500Q
Hi 500Questions, glad I found your site. I was following up with the nice discussion between you and Garbonzo up this point. And the answer I had waiting looked a little bit like: “This obviously may not be the best possible world, but it may be the best possible way to the best possible world.”. Here however, you just imagined an imperfect world and concluded with: “That’s a God I could get behind”. When obviously you didn’t account for how the evil guys could repeat the same thing the devil did from their ‘hell fire place’ i.e. overthrow God. The issue of freewill has always been a tricky topic and even as humans we wouldn’t try it with our robots. Also, imagine that you had a closer connection to these robots, that these robots were more like children to you, and you wanted them to have a life of their own, to make their own choices, and to be who they wanted to be, would you for each child you create look into their future and kill them off if you think they’ll eventually choose evil (when in fact they have not chosen it), have you wondered why we even say prayers at all no earth, or ask for specific things?
If you’re up to it, I’d challenge you to come up with a sketch model/imagination of a future world that you think is better than what God is creating. Maybe there’s something we’ll all be able to learn from this.
Interested to see what 500Q has to say, but honestly, I think we had it covered. That was a very good conversation that you read, it was really interesting for me. Like 500Q said, the best model would probably be something like true free will. You are free to do all the good / evil things you want. If you want to do evil things you are free to go to hell, or good things in heaven. Similar way on Earth (if you insist there needs to be Earth to begin with). I’d be interested to hear what you say to that. There are many ways to get around this problem like the ones I mentioned, but 500Q brought out a good point.
@Garbonzo: Well, that was also what I was pointing to, I tried to think about it sincerely and honestly as a man and I have no basis to conclude that if a perfect world was in the making, this would not be the perfect way. I’ve noticed that what actually counts to us as ‘eternal’ beings of learning is experience, which is a function of time at least on our realm, the Bible itself acknowledges several times that this is a bad time and the perfect heaven/world is coming. So I simply cannot dismiss that this is just part of a longer term or say that it’s an imperfect process.
Logically speaking, there is simply no reason to have innocent people, children, babies, etc. suffer in this world like they are. That is not “fair”. This is not a perfect system to “test” us. That’s just sick.
Hi opatachibueze,
It’s true that if people are given the choice to experience evil, God is STILL responsible for creating that situation. So the perfect world is either the one that is never created, or one populated only by creations that would never choose to do evil. And that’s really where the debate should end.
However, evil obviously exists, and so people have taken to arguing that free will can’t exist without evil, and therefore our perfectly-good God is justified in creating evil. I would STILL argue that a perfectly-good God would not create anything at all, but even if we entertain this idea, each created individual should still be born into perfection, free from evil, and allowed to live there indefinitely. If they are not happy with perfection (for whatever reason) they should be allowed to freely leave without any threat of punishment. (After all, these are your “children,” and you just want them to be happy.) They should be free to explore alternative worlds created by others, or to create their own. But they should always have the option to repent and immediately return to perfection, or be allowed to choose non-existence.
If evil MUST exist, then this is the kind of “evil” I can get behind. Not the kind where innocent children and animals are forced into a creation filled with diseases and disasters against their will. If we are going to choose a horrible world, let us each choose it freely — of our own free will. Perhaps if we first knew perfection, we would quickly realize why imperfection is less desirable.
500Q
Agreed. Excellent response! But why would a perfectly-good god not create anything? That part I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from. As long as you give them free choice to live or to die, it’s fine.
My underling assumption is that if something is perfectly good, it can never do any evil, or create anything that might result in evil. Once it does, it can no longer qualify as “perfectly” good. That’s the problem with absolutes. The only exception would be if the creation never did any evil.
“So the perfect world is either the one that is never created, or one populated only by creations that would never choose to do evil. And that’s really where the debate should end. ” — This is precisely where I also would have liked you to end. Given that we don’t know what a ‘perfect process’ implies, you can barely correctly judge if what we’re experiencing now is the perfect process.
Interestingly enough, I also read something in the same line to my last comment today:
“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” Not only is the idea you’re already having about separating good and evil described in a more proper way here but it also specifically mentions that people may be able to pass from ‘here’ to the chasm though never to return. What if that’s what we’re doing now and this ‘is’ the ‘fair’ process?
Also remember that as far as we have free will, God doesn’t want anyone of us to be evil.
Does God have free will? According to the Bible, yes. Can God sin? According to the Bible no. Therefore, God’s very character demonstrates that it is possible for free will to exist without the possibility of sin and evil.
Furthermore, since God created man in his own image, could he not have given man the same ability to exercise free will while at the same time being unable to sin, even as God is unable to sin? It seems like God did a poor job at creating man in his own image.
God’s nature refutes the argument that free will brings the possibility of sin – unless you want to argue that God can choose to sin, in which case we would have to conclude that Bible texts to the contrary are all lies.
Why would any perfect being choose to sin? The choice to must be born of imperfect thoughts, so it is impossible for a perfect being to choose to sin. To say that a perfect being can choose to sin is tantamount to saying that a perfectly sane man (not affected by inanity, depression, or other unwholesome mental pressures) can choose to jump off a cliff to his death.
And what if God is creating us to be like Him? What if the process we’re undergoing now is designed to help us become like God, being seasoned enough to not choose sin.
-Silenceofmind
“The atheist mistakenly believes that just because God knows the future that somehow God’s foreknowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the issue.”
Ironically theists and atheists require an equal amount of faith to subscribe to the belief of their choosing…[read: neither can prove it]
In the spirit of a fruitful and respectful discussion, one can rewrite your statement as:
“The theist mistakenly believes that just because God knows the future that somehow God’s foreknowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the issue.”
Saying God didn’t create evil [read: Satan] is like saying “He created the soil, nutrients, atmosphere, precipitation, sunlight AND the seed but he DID NOT create the plant.” Technically speaking, both sides to this argument are “correct” dependent on how big your grain of salt is.
That said, to throw both atheist and Judeo-Christian theist arguments out the window (to avoid going in circles) I kindly submit the question:
Does this proposed God have the ability to foresee not what someone would do with free will once they have it, but rather the near-infinite possibilities that could result from granting free will before granting it?
[read: evil?]
My inclination would be to say “Yes”, but hey I’ve been wrong before…
-Cheers,
Cromagnostic
“Ironically theists and atheists require an equal amount of faith to subscribe to the belief of their choosing…[read: neither can prove it]”
What type of atheism are you referring to? Atheism is generally defined as a lack of belief in a god or gods, so what type of faith would that require? Atheism is more about a lack of faith.
Very good definition for Atheism!
silenceofmind, I like your answer. I personally also believe God give us free will, and the angels have free will, as well, and your point “The atheist mistakenly believes that just because God knows the future that somehow God’s foreknowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the issue” is really good. Thanks for the insight.
Did you read 500 Questions’ response? If so, why not highlight where he is wrong?
Atheists do not blame God for anything. Atheists simply do not believe in a god or gods – by definition. Since atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god, I don’t see how you link it with leftist thinking, rather, atheism is more commonly related to rational thinking and scepticism.
Atheists do not blame god for anything!
BTW silenceofmind, if atheists blamed God for anything they wouldn’t be atheists. It’s kinda the point of being atheist – you leave deities out of the equation.
Its difficult to answer atheists because, their unbelief is in itself a “religion” which just like others, rigidly hold on to its belief in non existence of God.
To answer your question, “why did God create Satan?”
In order to answer this question, you need to ponder on the other logical ones. Who is Satan?
Personally, as a Christian, I have never met Satan, nor heard from him. So, I kind of ask myself, who then is this character? And why do people claim that he tempts them? The Answer lies in John 3:16
“ Yes, God loves the world so much, that he gave his only Son, so that who ever believes in him, should not be lost. John 3:16
“God sent His Only Son”
That, is the clue. Only Son. So, if Jesus was God only Son, who do the rest of mankind belong to? And if they belong to Satan, how did he kidnap us? What was God doing?
The logical answer is in Genesis1:26 Where God says:
‘Let us make Man, in our own image, and in our own likeness and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens” Genesis 1:26”
Let “us” Who is this “us”?
The Trinity Majesty of God the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So, is God said, “Let us” That meant that Man, would also be a “Trinity Majesty of Man” the Spirit, the Human Spirit. Can we confirm this?
Yes! In the book of prophet Zechariah we are told,
“The word of Yahweh about Israel. It is I, Yahweh, who speaks, who spread the heaven, and founded the earth, and formed the Spirit of Man, within him.” Zechariah 12:1-2
Get that!! The Spirit of Man!
Who is this Spirit of Man? What does the Son of God has to say?
‘If God were your father, you would love me. since I have come from God; yes, I have come from him; not that I came because I choose, no, I was sent, and by Him. Do you know why you cannot take what I say? Its because you are unable to understand my language. The Devil is your father, and you prefer to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the start, he was never grounded on Truth; there is no Truth in him at all. When he lies, he draws from his own store, because he is a liar, and the father of lies” John 8: 43-45
So, there is your answer. You are a differentiated Spirit who is a Trinity. Man, as Spirit, is the Trinity. As the cause of his Creation, Man, is a Father who is the Devil. As a creator of his creation, Man, is Satan, the word of Man. As the manifestor of his creation, Man, is Lucifer, the Son of the devil!!
So, if you still want to know why God created Satan, you are basically asking “Why did God create me?”
Reading interpretations like this makes great commentary on the confounds of the human mind.
“You are a differentiated Spirit who is a Trinity. Man, as Spirit, is the Trinity. As the cause of his Creation, Man, is a Father who is the Devil. As a creator of his creation, Man, is Satan, the word of Man. As the manifestor of his creation, Man, is Lucifer, the Son of the devil!!”
This hurts my brain. 😦
Legitimate question. Why would god create me, if he knows I am going to choose not to believe in him, and in doing so not obey his commandments (the first four of the decalouge anyway which no observer outside of Christianity could claim have a bearing on an objective morality, and a bunch of others which are equally irrelevant). You can say it is my free will, or my parents, but why would an omnibenevolent deity allow me to exist if he knows my free will is going to get me damned for all time.
Inherently, free will is at odds with a benevolent deity.
“It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”
-Aristotle
That said, as an educated man, would you respectfully entertain this thought?
Satan, a “reformed angel” was “evil” all on his lonesome…no “Tree of Good And Evil” involved…just an Angel’s Free Will +A “Screw God” Complex= Satan
Questions being:
1) Before Eve ate from the tree, the only “pre-evil evil” she could be “tempted” to do by the Devil was eat from the tree, correct?
No child rape, murder, hate, war, etc…. all Satan could tempt to do was make either Adam or Eve “eat”, correct? This is quite the singularity…could God have had an inkling as to what “cosmic poker hand” Satan might play here considering Satan only had one way to tempt humanity at the time?
2) The most auspicious time point in all eternity to create the “Tree of Good And Evil” and judge the souls of all humanity that would follow Adam and Eve is to do it right after a group of angels just rebelled with their freewill and are hell bent on destroying everything that has to do with your creation in an eternal all-out-cosmic-war? This is the absolute best time to test humanity? No “cool off” period?
3) Could Eve foresee the implications of what would happen if she ate from the “Tree” the way God or Satan would? If no, this is a test that is deemed “fair” as a reflection of a fair God that created it?
4) Where did Satan get his evil if he didn’t need “the Tree”? If it stems from his “freewill” then why did we need the “Tree” to begin with as Eve had the freewill to eat from the tree before she ate?!?
Bonus question:
What came first, free will or evil?
(Thank you kindly for your OP and in advance for your response. I enjoyed your original post because you quoted scripture.)
Respectfully,
-Cromagnostic
“Its difficult to answer atheists because, their unbelief is in itself a “religion” which just like others, rigidly hold on to its belief in non existence of God.”
1) Unbelief is NOT a religion. It is simply a default position taken until sufficiently credible evidence is forthcoming. All god claims should be treated equally whether that be Apollo, Zeus or Yahweh or Allah.
2) Most atheist do not rigidly hold on to a belief in the non existence of God. You have that back-to-front. I can’t understand why theists have such difficulty with this simple concept. It is not a belief in the ‘non existence of God’, it is a lack of belief in the ‘existence of God’. Big difference.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things. (game-set-match)
This is an interesting verse that I almost mentioned. For what it’s worth, apologists state that the word used for “evil” here is more about God setting up some kind of trial, rather than performing any actual evil.
I’ve never seen this scripture before. It seems there are many apologetics on it. My old religion seems to have an interesting view I’ve never seen before. God actually can do evil according to them! 😮
> The Meaning of Jehovah’s Bringing Evil. Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases.
The very definition of evil is wrongdoing or something immoral. How the hell can evil not be wrong, wut? If a judge sentences a criminal to prison, do you call it a good evil? No, that would be illogical. You call it justice. There is no such thing as a good evil.
Boggles my mind how people can reconcile these apologetics in their head.
I think the JWs mean that the word evil in this context means “calamitous”, “painful”, “horrendous”, etc. Consider for example the words of Matthew 21:41:
“They said to him: “Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due.””
The first “evil” in the verse appears to be synonymous with “wicked”. But the second “evil” (in “evil destruction”) appears to be synonymous with “terrible”, “painful”, “traumatic”, etc. The first “evil” emphasizes the bad morality of the people. The second “evil” emphasizes the terrible nature of the destruction – even thought that destruction is justified.
Yes, some “rational” must be presented…yet, Exodus 32:14 slams the point home: “And the Lord repented of the EVIL which he thought to do unto his people.” Here the apologetic is so busy explaining that God doesn’t “change his mind” (repent) the whole evil thing gets set aside.
Wow, interesting. I may have to dig deeper into that one.
Yeah, is the Hebrew word really rendered as evil? Other translations use the word “disaster”.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_goodbad.html
Apparently some Christians are claiming it can mean evil or it can mean disaster, the verdict is still out. What do you say to MarkHisway below?
Christians feel that “and create disaster” rather than evil somehow alleviates the morality? Those versed in Hebrew (see provided link) actually do say the word has no direct English equivalent. It simply means “bad.” That said, MarkHisway is “lost in the letters.” He seems to be a literalist and determined to find his answers in the bible, regardless of the inconsistencies involved. There is nothing to say to people of this sort. A reading of the book of Joshua renders any evasion of “moral evil” moot. The God of the Old Testament has no morality. He is simply a “master” that you had better not cross, no matter the circumstances. (see what happened to Saul when he didn’t kill Agag of the Amalekites) That Christians convey “disobedience” as justification for behavior that CANNOT be justified, is the irrational path they have chosen to find their way to God.
gotquestions.org says,:
Question: “Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?”
Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.
(2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html#ixzz39tpnRwEl
MarkHisway, can you give me a scripture in the Bible that uses the Hebrew word ‘ra’ to mean anything other than a moral evil?
From textual evidence, it is clear that in the Bible this word does mean evil in a moral sense. Here are some of the other contexts in which it is used:
In Genesis 2:17, God instructs Adam and Eve not to eat from “the tree of good and ra“. The tree of good and disaster? The tree of good and calamity? Clearly not: it is the tree of good and evil.
In Genesis 6:5, God resolves to destroy humankind in the great flood because “the wickedness (ra) of man was great in the earth”.
In Genesis 13:13, the men of Sodom were “wicked (ra) and sinners before the Lord exceedingly”.
In Deuteronomy 1:35, a furious God threatens the Israelites, “Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil (ra) generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.”
In Judges 2:11, “the children of Israel did evil (ra) in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim”.
In 1 Kings 16:30, the wicked king Ahab (husband of the infamous Jezebel) “did evil (ra) in the sight of the Lord above all that were before him”.
These and many other references make it clear that the primary meaning of ra is indeed evil in the sense of wickedness or sin. For believers who hold to the textual inerrancy of the Bible, therefore, there is no choice but to admit that God created evil. And in a way, this makes a great deal of sense. If an all-powerful, all-knowing god created everything, what other explanation for evil could there be, other than that he caused it?
Even the Bible’s theology bears this out. The text offers numerous occasions where God could have intervened to turn events to good and chose not to. He could, for example, have obliterated Satan and the rebel angels entirely, or at the very least confined them to Hell and not allowed them to escape, so that they could never have escaped to lead humanity into temptation. And God’s behavior in the whole Eden affair, in any case, smacks strongly of either extreme incompetence or deliberate malice – not least, his choice to transmit the curse of original sin to all subsequent generations rather than letting every human start off with a morally clean slate.
As you have rightly mentioned, Yes, God is Thee Creator…
You have also mentioned that Human are created with free will, to choose between good & bad, as rule we always choose bad because it satisfies our senses, which is the only aim of Human birth, or we will repeat what the Satan tells about Job to God, It is as good as reaching home safely, with getting wet when it is not raining and we are traveling by car. rather than reaching home safely without getting wet by walking… the latter needs real skill and will power not to get wet. We also can blame on Satan for tempting us… and so on. but the decision to sin or go astray is ours decision! Are we willing to kill our senses?
“Are we willing to kill our senses?”
-Robin Williams did just that yesterday when we lost a national treasure and beautiful human being.
It’s days like this I wish there definitively was a God so all these “Christians” had someone to answer to for the heinous stuff being left on message boards focusing more on him “sinning” or “going to hell” than the sanctity of life and the sanctity of family…
Ironically the very things the Bible hands down is more focused on…
“Seize the day.”
-R.W.
What if you are wrong.
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
~ Thomas Jefferson
What if we are wrong about Islam? There are plenty of fear fallacies out there that attempt to skew our thinking with threats of eternal punishment, we can’t believe them all. But fear works, and keeps a lot of people from asking questions. I think one has to put fear aside and properly assess the threat as best as possible. If it turns out not to be real, then there is nothing to fear.
I can be wrong but look around from the day we were born we are not happy, if we say, No I was happy on that particular day or event, that has already passed away, it is not permanent. I was happy and celebrated when I bought my first car… The happiness did last till I saw my neighbor buying the latest model. So what is happiness or being sad is feeling, like having hot food, the hotness of food is felt as long as we are eating, after that it is just an experience, but to die is not the purpose of our birth, our fore fathers were living for more than 100 years but it is a dream for us even after advancing so much in Science, Why?
Our forefathers were not living into their 100s with all evidence we have available to us. I believe humans will soon achieve immortality through science, or at least live until the end of this universe, if we cannot escape it’s death.
Kevin, Please read the wikipedia entry on Pascal’s wager, especially the criticism’s section. For me personally, the argument of assumptions is what does it. There is no reason to assume the Christian God is any more real than any other. Therefore, it makes just as much sense to not worship as it does to worship what is most likely the wrong deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
I am a Christian and these questions do interest me but what is the purpose of the blog. Even if Christianity is false I don’t see it as a threat to society. If anything it has benefited society.
Hi Kevin,
I don’t necessarily think Christianity is a threat to society (it’s got both good and bad points), but even if it were proven that Christianity makes society better, I’d still prefer to know the truth. And that’s really the whole point of exploring these questions, to try and understand what is the truth.
500Q
Question: “What is truth?”
Answer: http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-truth.html#ixzz39sB8bybX
Note: I edited the above comment to link to the original source. Feel free to link to outside arguments, but don’t just copy and paste them as your own.
Christianity can cause harm. It tends to do the most harm (30 Years War, Northern Ireland, Uganda Homosexuality law now overturned on a technicality, protestant and Catholic child abuse cases) when it is absolutely convinced of it’s rightness, and silences it’s critics. If a Christian’s faith is strong, this blog probably won’t convince them otherwise, but it may at least help them see that there is another point of view.
Indeed. I fear the Christian fanatics more than I fear the Islamic fanatics. This is because there are Christian fanatics who would want to see the world to come to an end and who are ready to aid their god in the final destruction – in our days when we have the tools to end all life on earth. And because, the Christian fanatics have more moderate Christians to ride and hide behind.
Your comment, “mental knowledge” is different than “experiential knowledge”, is absolutely different. It is explaining a child not to touch the flame as it will be hot, if the child believes that they are saying it for our good and does not touch it is mental knowledge, which will be passed on to generations. But if the child wants to experience the hotness it will touch and face the consequences. Which is fate of our human as God Thee Father(GTF) had clearly commanded not to eat from that particular tree of knowledge, but we wanted to have Experiential knowledge, so we broke the command, we had to face two consequences, getting of GTF and knowledge about bad, as till then God had had not created it, we see the next bad in Able and Cain. who experimented jealousy and hatred, which was not there till then.
Today we are also experiencing or experimenting the same, and facing the consequences.
Why? We have moved away from GTF’s garden of Eden, where he has created everything for you only but cautions you not to eat from that particular tree, are we ready to be in His garden or move of it and live on free will because We have invented …Can our Inventions save us?
As song per Blood, Sweat, and Tears. Only dying will tell.
Witty and thoughtful as always 500Q! “I think the real reason this problem exists is because too many impossible demands have been placed upon God’s character. The God of the Jews had to be more powerful than all the other neighboring gods; he had to be the best, the strongest, the wisest, the oldest, the first, the last, the most benevolent, and (eventually) the only.” I second that right there – in order to survive and thrive, God had to meet the criteria of a large number of people, and be better than the religions that already existed back then, which meant he needed to evolve over time.
I can see possible ways of explaining the creation of Satan, maybe God wanted to prove a point, but for keeping Satan alive for thousands of years? I can’t see a way of explaining that which remotely makes any sense. The way I see it, Satan exists to explain the misfortunes, disasters and abhorrent crimes which constantly occur in the world, and cannot be attributed to God, not even as one of his “trials” because they are that terrible. Creating Satan has also apparently condemned the whole human population to a “guilty until proven innocent” status, which even human courts can see is totally unjust. Personally, I get exasperated when Christianity is advertised as a “message of hope” and tell us to “rejoice!!” I would think that a more accurate description would be “hey, sorry, but um, God created humans and we were perfect, BUT he also decided to create Satan, and because of Satan we are all pathetic and hopeless, the whole world is now doomed and you are all going to die and go to hell forever unless you pledge eternal obedience to God and Jesus etc.etc.”
On a completely random note, I think it’d be interesting for you to do a question relating to heaven. What’s heaven meant to be like? Do you lose your memories of your family and friends that end up going to hell? Or are you just meant to be SO happy and love to be in the presence of God so you completely forget your love for your family? The descriptions of heaven that I’ve heard reminds me of Thomas More’s Utopia, for some reason – are you familiar with his work? In a very quick breakdown, it’s a country where everyone has their place in society to keep it going and their society runs like clockwork, very efficient but also very structured and robotic, but everyone is (apparently) supremely content.
Again a random thought: why did God not want Adam and Eve to gain knowledge? Is this an ‘ignorance is bliss’? Did he not want humans to have knowledge, and just follow him around blindly but happily?
Sorry I’ve gone terribly off topic again, but I can’t seem to help it. Please forgive me
Might get around to doing heaven. There are some problems with maintaining a perfect world. For one, if you need evil in order to understand good, do you have to keep some evil around? Also, how many forms of “perfection” can exist? Kinda reminds me of the Talking Heads song “Heaven,” where perfection only comes in one form; one best song, one best kiss, one best party, the end result being: “Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.”
I’m not sure why God did not want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil. It’s hard to have free will and choose between good and evil when you have no knowledge of what evil is.
long time listener, first time caller, love your show babe. I’m not sure why I’m piping up with this rather petty point as my first post, but . . . . while Heaven may indeed be a place where nothing happens, it’s probably good to remember that the “Heaven” David Byrne wrote about in this song is a gay bar in London 🙂
Really?! Well don’t that beat all. Thanks for chiming in!
http://wpgrogan.blogspot.com/2014/05/heaven-or-hell.html
Psalm 14:1…
Praying for your redemption, available only through your and my Creator, Christ Jesus.
Return to Him… Luke 15:11-32.
And yet another sect from gotquestions.org:
Question: “God vs. Satan – if God is all-powerful, why does He not just kill Satan?”
Answer: One of the mysteries of the Christian life is why God didn’t destroy Satan immediately after Satan sinned. We know that God will one day defeat Satan by throwing him into the Lake of Fire where he will be tortured day and night forever (Revelation 20:10), but sometimes we wonder why God has not destroyed Satan already. Perhaps we will never know God’s exact reasoning, but we do know certain things about His nature.
First, we know God is absolutely sovereign over all creation, and this includes Satan. Certainly, Satan and his demons wreak havoc in the world, but they are only allowed a certain amount of freedom. We also know that God has planned everything from the beginning of time to the end. Nothing can thwart His plans, and things are proceeding exactly on schedule. “The LORD of hosts has sworn: ‘As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand’” (Isaiah 14:24).
Second, “we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). Whatever God has planned for Satan, that plan will be the best one possible. God’s perfect wrath and justice will be satisfied, and His perfect righteousness will be glorified. Those who love Him and who wait for His plan to be fulfilled will be thrilled to be part of that plan and will praise and glorify Him as they see it unfold.
Third, we know that to question God’s plan and its timing is to question God Himself, His judgment, His character and His very nature. It is not wise to question His right to do exactly as He pleases. The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). Whatever plan comes from the mind of the Almighty is the best plan possible. It is true that we can’t expect to understand that mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ says the LORD. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not. In the case of His timing for Satan’s demise, it has to be the best possible plan because it is God’s plan.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-vs-Satan.html#ixzz39s97zhIf
@markHisway, that was interresting. Is this what you really think, or are you quoting some site without really thinking about it? It seems like the writers of that site are being a bit floppy, perhaps, simply because their presumed audience is not expected to really think about the answers they give, but to take them on faith. You see, that is exactly the kind of evil faith causes and why faith is not a virtue?
Why should your god have killed this Satan character for practicing the alledged free will? Equally, why would your god have given Satan dominion, limited or not, in the world, if the purpose of your god was to convince people that there is only one god? Would it not have been sufficient to limit Satan out of the material observable reality to minimize the evil he could cause? Is that not what we could expect from a “benevolent” divine entity? Why not? Now it seems to me, that none of the monotheistic religions really are that in any other way exept in name. Having this divinely powerfull Satan character running around is in no way different from polytheistic religions where overgod (often referred to as the father of other gods) has more power than the lesser gods – his sons, like Satan and Jesus in Christianity.
If you were a dictator and you had a rebellious criminal caught, would you be called a “benevolent” dictator for letting the rebellious homicidal lier run free? You could, of course kill him, but you could also set him outside the society, where he could do no harm, and try to educate him to become a functioning part of the society once more. If you were an omnipotent dictator you could make him see his mistakes and you could create the perfect society. If you were not only the omnipotent, but also truly the “benevolent” dictator, the perfect society you created would not only be for your political adherents, but for all people under your rule. Right? Anything else would set your authoritarian government into a suspect light, would it not?
Second, if god is totally sovereign and all things follow his plan, then there can not be free will. Is the free will of men and this Satan character an exclusion from the plan and all-powerfullness of your god? Or, was it in your gods plan that Satan would use his free will to create polio and ebola and that men would create slavery, concentration camps and the A-bomb? Was your god powerless to interfere in these magnificent results of the free will? What is the point of praying, if your god is unable, or chooses not to interfere in the most horrific actions taken by Satan and the humanity?
If free will was necessary for the creation to become interresting, to god (for I see no other reasons) then why did your god not make Satan and humans empathetic and intelligent enough not to create the most horrid things possible? Why was it necessary for your god to create humans as such competetive animals, that they are willing to kill each other for profit, or to create Satan in such a way, that after his extremely stupid rebellion (the most stupid action ever, since the alledged all-powerfull nature of your god was not hidden from him, like it is from us humans) he could not repent and recieve grace again?
Third, not to question the morals and logic of your god is the most immoral act imaginable. It is not only accepting that might makes right, but it is accepting a god worthy of worship and reverence and giving all your own power to make moral choises to a divinity of whose moral motives you have not evaluated. The exactly same claim could be used to defend moral high ground of Allah, or Moloch Baal, or any divinity for that matter. It is senseless.
If we took the story about Satan character being at odds with this YHWH character, it would lead us to only one logical conclusion. That the Satan character knows there is something fishy about the alledgedly “revealed” omnipowerfullness of the YHWH character. Unless we infer that the Satan character has no free will and is totally the puppet of the YHWH character the Satan character has to be the most stupid entity that has ever existed. My personal take, having read several such fairy tales, is that the writers were very ignorant representatives of a primitive culture and were never bothered by questioning their own story, so they got floppy about the content.
The existance of evil as a necessity to free will is total bogus. As if people who choose between to different forms of good had no choise. As if people living in an organized society would have less freedom than people living in anarchy and chaos. We all know it is the opposite.
Excellent points.
MarkHisWay seems to be lifting many of his arguments from GotQuestions.org (here and elsewhere). Mark: Please just link to the source, otherwise it appears the argument is your own.
I actually read this article while working on this question. While GotQuestions.org acknowledges that God knew what Satan would do, they still (somehow) claim God is innocent in the creation of evil. They don’t explain how, or why Satan was necessary, their only response is this: “It is not wise to question… our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.” So just shut up and believe. Is this really the only way Christianity can survive? By asking people to stop thinking as soon as the questions begin to expose the fallacy?
I wish we could post all these objections directly to the GotQuestions.org website, but they do not allow for outside comments. 😦
500Q,
Sorry for taking up so much space on the string, but when I read through their comments (gotquestions), they hold the same viewpoints as me, so I, in a quicker way of not ‘re-inventing the wheel’, just stand on their shoulders. Your arguments are pretty valid ones, and is why I was drawn to your site, and what support to opposition you have. Ultimately, we have to give credit where credit is due, and believe that God’s ways aren’t always our ways. He is the one in control, and in the end, the ones who follow His teachings by keeping His commandments, showing Him the love He deserves, will be rewarded through eternal life with Him in heaven. I pray you turn back to Him, and follow again in Jesus’ footsteps, for He is the way unto salvation. Standing before Him one day (we don’t know when that will be), and responding to His question,”Why should I let you in?” What would you tell Him? I’m sure in your 30 years of being a Christian, you’ll have some sort of answer for Him. Your site does allow Christians to view their side, as well as everyone else. It makes for a good debate, but really, when all is said and done, what will you say to Him? Will you answer His call today? For today is the day of salvation. He will take you back. It seems very much in this posting, you still want to believe He exists. Why do you want Him to ‘lift that penny’, or bring fire down from the sky? Are you proclaiming His name, or are you disclaiming His name? Why would He let you in? What sets you apart from the prophets of old? Your children need a father who fears God in a respectful way, so that they will not depart from His truth when they grow old. He has given you His creation as proof. You are made in His image, not another god, but spirit. His creation, from the living cell to stellar galaxies galore, He has made Himself known. Repent, before it’s too late! It isn’t by random chance I am writing this to you now. I believe there is a purpose behind everything, no matter how evil, or miniscule it may seem. It doesn’t mean we have to understand it all for God to exist. Your choice.
Respectfully
markHisway
sorry again for the double-post…:/
I believe the Bible was created to show us who we are, how bloodthirsty, we are. You can justify anything with the Bible, like letting poor children go hungry because their parents are bad. Wait! the bible says you can’t punish the child for the sins of the parents and vice versa – one of Moses’ laws. But God can. And we most certainly do. In fact, if we can blame people for their suffering, we don’t have to help! Ahh the assembly of love. i mean god.
That whole “why have you forsaken me” thing Jesus says – was that not sin? God so loved us that jesus will return as God’s wrath.
Love endures all things (except worshipping weak-ass god made only of stone and wood). Love is not jealous (except if you’re god and people are worshipping other gods) and is slow to anger (unless you’re god and your chosen people disappoint you (even though you know they would (free will?)))
I just can’t imagine Jesus, saying “hey i gotta flood the earth and kill little babies ’cause you have broken my 631 laws.” All the blood and sacrificing – always making us prove ourselves worthy but god doesn’t have to prove anything. ’cause he already did by killing his chosen people’s enemies. sometimes.
Free will? Ah ha ha … so funny. God hardened pharoa’s (can’t spell, must mean i’m stupid) heart so he could inflict His plagues on babies and glorify Himself. Several times, God “makes” people do things. How do we know, when we want to do evil, it’s because of Satan or God?
When I face my maker, he will know that it is because I love, that I question.
Revelations – were the names of the blameless written in the Book of Life before the world was created? Some interpretations say so. So where is free will?
If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will get to own a private jet and buy furniture for your ministry without having to look at price tags! Yes – you will get rich by giving away your social security check to female preachers (who claim every word of the bible is true but ignore what the bible has to say dames preaching). If you don’t get rich, if you can’t pay your gas bill and freeze to death, it’s your own fault. There are no victims! Ethiopian women holding screaming babies trying to suckle from breasts shriveled from starvation – it’s okay ’cause they’re a bunch of heathens. When I meet my maker, if he can explain how that is just, well, i’ll burn in hell for asking, for there is no answer.
Evil entered the world through the Bible. Morality was created to allow us to judge others as if, without the law, we’d kill every person we ever met. Especially at work or in traffic! To believe we are born evil, is the poison that allows us to build prisons without end.
You’d think god would love abortions to keep more evil babies from being born.
anyway – this site is brilliant and there is a huge degree of respect for opposing views – except for me. it’s hard to respect those who would have be burn in hell for not believing in a vengeful and arbitrary god.
Free will is evil in that, given we assume people could have behaved differently than they did, gives rise to all forms of judgement.
agh i wrote this on the sabboth day! or is that tomorrow?
what did god so plainly shows us? boy, the jews are soooo dedicated but they are not even allowed to write out the word “god” but you still gotta love them for how dedicated they are.
and so i love you all.
It’s always been difficult to understand that if “God’s ways are not our ways.” then how can we study the “Word” and understand what he wants of us? To make matters worse. it seems as if in Matthew Jesus tells the disciples that he speaks in parables (Matt 13:10-17) so that (my paraphrase) “the unbelievers would not understand.” I guess God’s ways are NOT our ways!
the answer mark posts is great except for the one non-biblical sentence you correctly call out. god calls us in his word to test everything and hold fast to what is good. replace the one sentence “don’t question” with “test everything” in mark’s post and i expect you will find yourself where job did when god asked his dozens of questions back at job. it is great to question god where we struggle. do you have any issue with the rest of mark’s post that is quite biblical? you seem to dodge dealing with the biblical majority of the rest of his post.
it is arrogant and foolish to think we’ll know all in the mind of god this side of this creation’s grave. i haven’t seen that much of your site, but it looks like that is your general disposition. ignoring all that god has plainly shown and told us just because we still have questions is satan’s snare. most children with good parents can figure out to trust their parents long before they even know what their earthly, fallen parents know. certainly we mature thinkers can rationally conclude our perfect parent is trustworthy from all he has plainly revealed. sorry if that is not really an issue for you, but it looks that way from what i’ve seen so far.
reasons.org has more on evil and god’s purposes.
That’s very valid question, Why God did not kill Satan when it sinned the first time itself?
Thanks, that makes my life more simpler! How could GTF kill his own creation just after creating them? Bible, tells us that the snake instigated Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, but if Eve did not desire to become like God, She would have either left the place or chased the snake. They had the dominion over everybody, Why did she not do any of these…
God gives us same situation for every one of us presently and forever, We will not sin if we DO NOT WANT TO! but the fact is we want to enjoy that moment but put the blame on others to get out of the situation?.
Satan is not the third person, It is Me and you, who are sinning. and at the same time, don’t expect punishment in the end…(whose end? Earth or Yours?) We are suffering every moment for some reason or other, why?
God threw his first creation itself out of HIS garden, to cultivate labor and survive the reason we are suffering today also is because of our either wrong desire or unlimited desire,
We a capable of making the most loving person, who loved us so much! wait don’t expect me to say “that HE gave his only son”.
Till today, we as humans have not changed even a millimeter the Ten commandment given thousands of years back are valid for today and today’s life style? but we blame the whole world for our incapability to control our senses!
Can we ever control our sense?
And would all of this be true?
And WHY would all of this be true?
“but if Eve did not desire to become like God, She would have either left the place or chased the snake.”
How would she know the snake was up to “evil” pretenses in order to chase away/leave the snake if she had not yet eaten from the Tree (of Knowledge of Good And Evil)?
i just can’t imagine doing any sin that would justify eternal suffering. sin is doing what we know is wrong – but for some, it’s okay to kill as long as we think it’s right. i don’t covet anything for i am grateful for what i have and i will never feel like i deserve to be well off while others suffer in ways i can’t imagine. i don’t make false claims against other because i’m simply not that ambitious. i don’t murder ’cause i’ve never been that angry. i honor my father and mother because they were good to me. i don’t steal because i have what i need. I just can’t take credit for these things. i’ve been so very fortunate and thank god for that. god as i understand him.
william blake wrote that those who can resist temptation have no idea what it is. i’ve never been tempted to kill nor have i been an adulterer. never been married. i’m not tempted to lay with married men ’cause fortunately, i’m not that attractive. i have no sex drive but i can’t take credit for that. in fact, some would say that is a bad sign as the desire for sex is healthy. i see what people do to those they love best. no thanks.
we are not all equally tempted, so how can we be equally judged?
the first four commandments result from god’s vanity – but i’ve known people, truly good people, who never got what they deserved. if we all got what we deserved, then truly the last would be first. a poor kid wakes up on christmas morning to a crummy present and feels it’s his fault. he must be on the naughty list. meanwhile, siblings of wealthy parents wake to piles of presents and spend the day fighting because they think the other got more. they will never be able to fully appreciate what they have.
the main question i have, and i hope it’s been addressed here, is why – shoot! i can’t remember. and it’s my main question! this is my god’s way of saying “read the index” first.
it is true that this statement is false – biggest problem the first creators of machine language came across.
off to check my body for triple sixes … and my problem is that i so desperately love jesus and believe that he was born to show us that god, too, suffers. i can’t not love jesus. and i can’t take credit for that. but that doesn’t mean i believe that every word of the bible is the inspired work of god. even though i want to believe it so badly. i have no fellowship with other christians because i just can not lay down my life for Moses’s god. i have no love for a god who would bring suffering to all mankind because of adam and eve, who knew nothing of lies, to believe one.
i was going to say how, with all the stuff about how to be a good slave that’s in the bible, that slavery was made unlawful. it’s a miracle that mere man was able to see it as an injustice. but i think of the american slaves – how much they loved jesus. oh the songs they sang … the comfort they found in thinking that everything would be okay once they died, even as their children were taken to be sold and their women raped to satisfy their master. wait. there are no victims! they were heathens! and yet they ended up being such wonders of christianity in how they loved jesus. and yet they did not just accept their status as commodities. tricky.
i’m growing bored with myself and still haven’t remembered my main question. all in god’s time.
rautakky,
Firstly, I would like to give you the good news: Jesus Christ, God in the Flesh, stepped into history around 2000 years ago, to pay the penalty for everyone’s sin, for God the Father required a perfect sacrifice for sin, since He is a perfect being. Jesus Christ, being perfect, was the only one who could atone for those sins of the world (including yours and mine). He (Jesus Christ) was murdered on the cross, was buried in a tomb, and rose again on the third day following His death, and is now seated at the right hand of God.
You will be saved from eternal punishment if you repent (turn from your wicked ways) and put your trust in Jesus Christ, for it is once to die, and then judgment.
With that being said, what I mentioned in the above post, I mentioned scripture in the beginning, wrote some, and then in my comment, “And yet another sect from got questions.org” was quoting from got questions.org, a site that stands on the authority and Word of God.
So, my question to you, rautakky, is, would you ever consider becoming a Christian? If so, than that is awesome! This is your choice. It would be, and is, the greatest choice one could ever make in their short lives here on earth.
“Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have been granted knowledge to high ranks.”
(Qur’an)
“Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim (male and female).” (Hadith)
THE VIRTUES OF KNOWLEDGE
Allah (Most Exalted is He), Who created us and gave us sustenance, has also given us guidance. He said:
“Verily We have created man into toil and struggle… Have We not made for him a pair of eyes; and a tongue, and a pair of lips; and shown him the two ways (obedience and disobedience)?”
(Qur’an, Al-Balad 90:4-10)
After providing us with the capability to contemplate, think and differentiate between things, He instructed us to know Him, to know his Prophets and to know His Deen, Islam. He said:
“So know that there is no god save Allah, ask forgiveness for your sins and for the believing men and the believing women. Allah knows well your moving and your place of rest.”
(Qur’an, Muhammad 47:19)
This verse shows the importance of knowledge and the virtues that Allah has given to it. It also shows that knowledge comes before deeds, since Allah instructed His Prophet to know that He is One and the only One worthy of worship. After that, He commanded him to ask forgiveness for himself, his family and for his Ummah.
You will be saved from eternal punishment if you repent (turn from your wicked ways) and put your trust in Allah, for it is once to die, and then judgment.
So, my question to you, markHisway, is, would you ever consider becoming a Muslim? If so, than that is awesome! This is your choice. It would be, and is, the greatest choice one could ever make in their short lives here on earth.
@markHisway, thank you for the good news. I appriciate the sentiment, altough, what you offer as news has not been news to me for quite a long time. After having examined it, it is more like propaganda. Now, I am not accusing you of spreading the propaganda, it is more like you are the victim of it. What is propaganda? Unverified claims made to achieve a political goal. Now, that is exactly what each and every religion is at core, if you look at them from the outsider position, in wich I am, by no achievement of my own.
How do you know, that any of what you claim in your previous commet is true? Surely such claims as one person was “perfect”, or that his death somehow paid the price of the “sins” (including yours and mine) are very, very, very extraordinary claims indeed. Are they not? Should we not expect equally extraordinary evidence to back them up, before believing in them at face value? But no evidence exists. Just these ancient anecdotal and mutually contradicting stories. Not a single reliable source to give any power to the veracity of the stories. We can not even be sure, wether or not this person even lived, it is a leap of faith and at that a total abandonment of reason to assume – not only to assume, but to commit oneself to the belief – that any of this is true. Is it not?
How dare you assume, that my ways are wicked? We do not know each other well enough, for you to make such assumptions, do we?
You say, that the got.questions.org “stands on the authority of” a god. However, I recall from reading the Bible, that it demands nothing should be added nor deleted from it. Is not the site clearly an addition to the text, if it stands on the same authority? Is there something wrong with the original text, that it needs such additions? Is it not a rather feeble attempt to communicate with the entire humanity, if you consider it is by the alledged creator of the universe? How do you know whose interpretation of the Bible is the correct one? I can provide you with my own interpretation of any Bible verse, and I bet mine is both better and more historically accurate, than any apologist version. Would you accept my interpretations?
Authoritarianism is the one biggest ethical problem of religions. People presuppose a particular god, then they presuppose some ancient, or not so ancient, but particular text to be the attempt to communicate with humanity by this god, and finally they presuppose some particular interpretation of the text to be carrying the authority of this god over our own senses, sense, logic, scientific achievement and even our concience and empathy. But the particular god has been presupposed without any evidence of the existence of one. The connection of the scripture and the god has been also presupposed without any evidence. The authority and the validity of the particular interpretation of the text has also been presupposed without any evidence at all. And the process is then repeated backwardly by the apologetic, when they presuppose their interpretation to be true, regardless of moral, logical or evidence problems. Then appologized and excused as based on the particular scripture. And finally the assumed particular god is assumed to be excused for having andropomorphic traits and poor morals.
I would consider becoming a Christian, if your particular god finally appeared to me and multitudes and gave a satisfactory explanation to all the immoralities and unethical demands in his alledged words and him not interfering in the most heinous acts of humans and alledgedly this Satan character. However, at the moment it is rather clear no such appearance has ever happened and human apologists have not come up with very good explanations to any of the problematic questions about your god. To me it seems as unlikely, that your god appears, as Vishnu, Allah or Thor appeared. Do you have high confidence in your god appearing? In the light of any evidence it is rather obvious, that all gods exist only in the imaginations of humans.
By the way, it is rautakyy, not “rautakky”, even though I understand this is somewhat hard for any Indo-European speakers.
rautakyy,
My apologies for the misspelling. I’m not perfect, and the misspelling was completely unintentional. No hard feelings?
What I meant by ‘repent'(turn from your wicked ways), is that no one (me, you, and everyone else) who says, he or she is good, with the understanding between right and wrong, is good in comparison to God, who is perfect in every way. We all have sinned. That is where we are all in need of a Savior, Who is Jesus Christ.
Not believing in Him, heaven or hell, doesn’t make any of it go away. We will all see at the rapture. I pray He opens your eyes to His Truth, before it’s too late. I don’t need to prove God’s existence to you. He’s already done that, through His creation. May He have mercy on your soul, for He has the power and authority to destroy it.
There were people who witnessed Jesus’ miracles, and God’s as well, and still did not believe. I see miracles happen every day: the sun rising, me breathing, someone being kind to someone else, me typing from you, from who knows where to who knows where.
And yes, I am confidant that my God will appear one day. He promised in His Word. He doesn’t break His promises. He is God Almighty.
gotquestions.org stands on the authority of “God”, not “a god”. Your accusations towards God will someday be tried and tested, and not by me. Pray you come to Him before the Last Judgment. The end is coming. Will you be ready?
You have no evidence for any of your claims, and they are just as equal as a Muslim’s claims, or a Mormon’s claims, or a Hindu’s claims. There’s no evidence for them. They all say a judgement day is coming, they all say that their book is the right book and the book inspired by a deity.
> He promised in His Word. He doesn’t break His promises.
There’s no evidence for this.
> There were people who witnessed Jesus’ miracles
Says what? The Bible? That is not truth. Go to a dictionary and look up the word:
A truth is an undeniable fact that can be proven by **more than one** source of information.
One source of information cannot be called truth, it needs to be verified by others. And a lot of the Bible’s claims cannot be verified. So why do you believe them?
> He’s already done that, through His creation.
Any religion can claim evidence of their inspired book is in creation. You’re gonna need better evidence than that.
@markHisway, no hard feelings. 🙂 You are not the first whom I have had to explain as much. I mispel stuff all the time.
The best way to have no regrets is to act as best we can according to our capacity for empathy and best information we can aquire about any given situation, not by having an imaginary and unnatural entity to forgive us what ever we happen to do. Having regrets is perfectly natural and a good method for learning, not to repeat our mistakes. It is a very effective evolutionary survival mechanism, that we share with a lot of other animals with.
Not believing in Allah does not make him go away, but I would first have to have a good reason to believe, that is evidence, that such an entity as Allah really exists outside folklore and the imagination of people. Thank you for the sentiment of praying, that your god proves his existance to me before it is too late for me, but you see if he does not, then I hold him accountable for that immoral act of leaving me out. Do I not have the right to call your god out on such an issue? Is your god outside all morals? Is he then immoral by nature? For sure, I can tell you, your god did not reveal himself to my dad, or grandad before they died. Have all my elder family members gone to eternal torment for simply not believing, because your god did not open their eyes before it was too late? Who is deserving of such a fate? If a god sends one soul to the alledged eternal suffering, for not having opened the eyes of that poor sod, “before it was too late”, then that god is an immoral monster. However, if he does not send there anybody, then the entire point of faith in this particular god and scaring people with such torment is totally futile. You see, the system is totally flawed. Is it not?
You wrote: ” I don’t need to prove God’s existence to you. He’s already done that, through His creation. May He have mercy on your soul, for He has the power and authority to destroy it.” You are right, you do not have to prove your particular gods existance to me (altough, I would be interrested as to what you would consider good enough evidence to convince me). What you should do is prove it to yourself. Or do you take it for granted even without proof? Is that not what faith is, believing despite the lack of any evidence. Proven what through the creation of what? If it is indeed true, that your god exists, and has the power and “authority” to destroy me, or my essence – if that is what you mean by a soul, it still does not give your god the moral justification to do so. Does it?
You do not know if there were any people who wittnessed any miracles by Jesus. We are talking about a text written long after the alledged events by people who were already totally committed to the cause. Those are not by any standards reliable sources for such extraordinary claims. Exept that the alledged wittnesses and the writers all lived in a very superstitious primitive culture in wich all sorts of miracles were taken at face value all the time, so they were by far not as nearly as extraordinary to them as they are to modern people who have access to reliable studies about miracles. None of wich have ever confirmed any miracless. Thus you call perfectly natural phenomenons like the sun rising a miracle. There is nothing miraculous about it, the earth revolves around the sun and subsequently it looks to us on the planet surface like the sun was rising. You breathing is no more a miracle than the sun rising, it is a perfectly natural result of evolutionary development – a survival trait on a planet that happens to have oxygen in the athmosphere. Exactly like being friendly is a perfectly natural survival trait of us social animals. Where as typing and communicating through technology is all human and the machines we use for such are the results of our culture and ability to think. No miracles there either. Exept if you would define the word miracle not to mean anything supernatural, or otherwise unnatural. Would you?
How do you know your god does not brake his promises? He did promise to come back before some of the dudes he was talking to were dead, did he not? It has been over two millenia and no appearances since, exept on toasts and the occasional treestump. Right?
The end of what is coming? Ready for what? Do you have any idea how many people in the past two millenia have expected your god to end the world and nothing has happened? Why?
How do you know if got.questions.org stand on the authority of your particular god “God”? What if they are wrong?
Thank you for your grace in my misspellings. I appreciate that. I also appreciate you taking the time to type to me, and to have read what I have typed out. Unfortunately, it is late right this moment, and I have to catch you tomorrow, and reply more fully to your comments. That being said, before heading to rest, my condolences to you for the passing of your dad and granddad. That, I’m sure, can’t be easy. My son has been blessed with knowing both sets of his grandparents, both of whom are still living. My prayers are with you and your family. Until tomorrow.
Blessings
Garbonzo,
Thanks for the invite, but I side with the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is my Savior. “I AM The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to The Father but through Me.” – John 14:6.
Interesting, though. It almost seems as if you took my words and deleted Jesus Christ’s name, and in His stead, placed the name of Allah. Just remember this: you won’t be answering to me on judgement day. I would say, “Just a thought.”, but it’s way more than that. It ultimately will mean a choice between choosing eternal life, or eternal death. Be sure you are following the right leader.
Hebrews 9:24-28
“24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;
26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.”
Blessings in the name of Christ Jesus.
Hi markHISway,
For conversation sake I respectfully don’t believe in Allah either (yet concede I can’t prove anything)…
Would you consider the following and see if Allah and “Islam” fit this bill?
Hitler is quoted as saying ““If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
Verified history has shown 1) the power of big lies and 2) why they need to be “big” in order to be believable. Tie this into history also showing us through Milgram’s experiments that 3) people will do “horrible things if an authority figure tells them to” and I respectfully contend to you that when adding up this 3 part formula you will find an indistinguishable difference between how Hitler did what he did and [ENTER NAME OF RELIGION YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN HERE].
Kind Regards
Believing lies – scripture reflections link
http://www.openbible.info/topics/believing_lies
What is Truth, then?
file:///C:/Users/Mark/Desktop/got%20questions/What%20is%20truth.webarchive
Don’t be deceived, either by yourself or by others. Rather, Trust in the One Who can set you free from all lies, deception, evil: Jesus Christ. It’s a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad world. I write these things and post these comments for the love of ones who will listen. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink. The ‘drinking’ part, that is up to the Holy Spirit. I have no part in providing increases into the Holy Kingdom of Heaven. That is up to the Lord. Seek Him. He leaves that part up to you. Respond to His call. http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%207
Blessings
What is Truth link
file:///C:/Users/Mark/Desktop/got%20questions/What%20is%20truth.webarchive
cromagnostic,
From your call name, I assume you believe there has to be a greater power beyond yourself, but you’re unsure who or what.
Yes, I believe it would fit. “Would you consider the following and see if Allah and “Islam” fit this bill?”
Since I am a Christian, obviously I side with Jesus Christ and the Bible. I contend that Christianity isn’t a ‘religion’ per say, as it is a relationship, found in Jesus Christ. In reading about Milgram’s experiments on wikipedia, more often than not, majority of humans are going to become subjects to other human authority, if the latter administers promise of correction or administers physical reprimand. The difference is, who is the authority, and for what cause is the authority in place? Hitler wanted to take over the world, and felt there were inferior races. These acts I see biblically as damnable, because of lack of sanctity of life itself: aka – Holocaust, or aka – abortion, both being murder. Now, was God’s judgement in the greatest act of genocide (Noah’s flood) just?
http://www.gotquestions.org/flood-just.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-killing.html
It comes down to faith and trust, cromagnostic. Everyone has to have a certain amount of faith and trust in someone or something.
I trust in the Holy Bible, because it was written by God through man, has been tested over time, and always comes up on top. It proves itself.
Isaiah 55:11 –
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Proverbs 3:5&6 –
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to Him,
and He will make your paths straight.”
Blessings.
> From your call name, I assume you believe there has to be a greater power beyond yourself, but you’re unsure who or what.
That is not what agnosticism means, markHisway. Maybe you should look it up?
> I trust in the Holy Bible, because it was written by God through man, has been tested over time, and always comes up on top. It proves itself.
If it has been written by God through man, why does it contain so many errors and contradictions? It hasn’t been tested over time because we an see the old morality in it such as genocide, rape mandated by God, and slavery. Muslims say the Quran comes up on top. What separates the Bible from the Quran?
‘”What Separates the Bible from the Quran?”
Excellent point.
I too offer you the same reminder: Just remember this: you won’t be answering to me on judgement day. I would say, “Just a thought.”, but it’s way more than that. It ultimately will mean a choice between choosing eternal life, or eternal death. Be sure you are following the right leader.
“An unbeliever will be brought on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked. ‘Suppose you had as much as gold as to fill the earth, would you offer it to ransom yourself?’ He will reply: ‘Yes’. Then it will be said to him, ‘You were asked for something easier than that [to join none in worship with Allah (i.e., to accept Islam, but you refused)].” (Al-Bukhari)
Blessings in the name of Allah.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Muslim-Christian.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/why_islam.htm
Haha, nice. Did you catch on to what I was doing also? 😉
Of course 🙂
I also just hoped to show MarkHISway that it is hard to have a discussion if one only refers to websites written by others. Up til now he only has been preaching the gospel without really trying to answer any of the questions we asked him.
Preaching the gospel is what it’s all about. It’s not markHisway’s job to change anyone’s minds. That job belongs to the Holy Spirit. Re-read his posts above. He’s answering the questions. He’s just having a hard time getting others to listen. He can answer their questions all day long, but he can’t understand it for them.
But these discussions are not about changing ones mind. These discussions are about trying to explain to one another why we believe what we believe and think what we think. So if someone asks: why should I believe the bible to be right? – which is the bottom line of this website – answering that Jesus is Lord and immediately asking what you are gonna say on judgment day, is not an answer to the question. Where is the proof that Christianity is right but Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are not? Where is the proof that the Jesus portrayed in the bible corresponds for 100% with the actual Jesus that lived (if he ever did to begin with) and that the way Islam portrays him is wrong? Where is the proof that the 12 disciples were indeed exactly in real life as they are portrayed in the bible? Where is the proof that there is only one god instead of two, or thousand? Where is the proof that this one god does even exist? Where is the proof that even if he/she/it did, he/she/it endorses a faith known to mankind? Where is the proof that Mary was a virgin? As 500 Questions put it in his response on another topic: did anyone check her hymen? And even if it can be proven that the bible is right and god endorsed, how do you know that your interpretation of the book is the right one, instead of one of the other many, many, many denominations? I personally think these are interesting questions. I also think ‘Jesus is Lord’, the holy spirit will tell you’, and ‘just repent before it is too late’ are not really fitting answers to these questions, as they are creating a circular argument. Where is the proof that Jesus is Lord? The bible tells us so! Where is the proof that the bible is true? Because Jesus is Lord!
Excellent excellent comment Arista.
Hey there Garbonzo,
Couldn’t tell if that one was directed at me- either way thanks for the invite as I’m sure it’s a blanket invite.
Given that you’re on a different side of the coin than “markHisway”, it’d be interesting for you to also reply and see if “Christianity” fits the bill in my aforemented post that ends in:
[ENTER NAME OF RELIGION YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN HERE].
Don’t worry about me cromagnostic. 😉
Dear 500 Questions,
I want to extol on separating “Why Does God Allow Evil” and “Why Did God Create The Devil.” These two things would’ve been easy to not only jumble together but also tackle in back-to-back posts. You separated it out and succinctly stated your case with humor in a non-condescending fashion with a nice display of planning and patience I can see translating well into handling something really prickly like “The Epic of Gilgamesh” or “Gay Marriage/Orientation & Hermaphrodites.”
As always looking forward to your next post, but that one needed a tip of the hat.
Cheers,
-Cromagnostic
Thanks! 🙂
500Q,
Fantastic post. I just finished a one week ‘marathon’ of reading all of your posts (and comments) on this blog since question #1. It was TRULY a worthwhile endeavor. Looking forward to the next 444#!
Wow, that’s quite a marathon! Thanks for taking the time to read it all and for letting me know. 🙂
500Q
My understanding after going through your comments are very simple that,
We are thinking God, as a human with all inequalities though HE is way beyond all our thinking… practical example is when I visited US in early 2000, the pen drive had been just released that too 512MB, that was a great invention for that time, like wise if someone had told us that we can store more than TB data in a movable device, way back in 1900 it would have been a dream for some and joke for others but now it is a reality! So please, its my request don’t ever try to bring down GTF, (God Thee Father) to mere human level who are made from the earthly things, which will also returns to Earth in their end of life.
Where is your proof? It is just man saying these things. Why can’t an Almighty God speak for himself? Show me the proof God is beyond our thinking.
Again a human thought! proof. It is like, asking the President or PM to answer to a common mans doubt that too to show up personally? If this the norm of the day… there are only few millions presently living on earth to answer…then GTF will be not GTF, but less than a common man, Then what will happen to …who are praying every second around the globe, imagine the time difference between nations? Again please don’t think in human perspective, how God will handling these… Will he have representatives around the globe giving Him the updates, please stop thinking like a human, we are nothing in front of our Creator, That is why He has said “I am who I am” (kodos) That is why, He is our GTF.
Can I answer this way? Can you(we) create a simple living cell or a tissue or a organ or system? without expiry date and which will work without rest and in harmony from the time it was conceived till it reaches the death bed? For some it may be few years while for others it is few decades? I am talking about our pump(heart) while there are other organs which makes us either see or hear or even make us feel, according to me all these are actual wonders of working of worlds(Creation) how many of us ever understand there working principal.Now, let us try to appreciate the planner and creator, there is only one GTF, God Thee Father, challenge me and then you will see more miracles, as per humans but dividing a sea or feeding for more than 40,000 for 40 years, or making a man Father at age of 92 or washing out the entire earth with water but saving his blessed ones or making a virgin to conceive… till today where He has made a dead human alive, who is declared by Doctors as 99.99% dead, (Me)
He is God. The Yahweh, The Creator, God Thee Father! … Amen!
I can see any President with my own eyes, there is no evidence of God. What separates your beliefs in God than the Greek’s beliefs in a pantheon of gods? How would an outsider choose what to believe? Where is your evidence?
99.99% dead isn’t the same as 100% dead. It’d be more impressive if you’d been totally, 100% dead, then came back to life. 99.99% is barely alive, but still alive nonetheless. Truly being dead and then reanimated still wouldn’t prove the existence of a god, and wouldn’t in itself demonstrate WHICH god did the deed.
Sorry, if you wanted to see God, I can show him in many perspectives but you, sorry we with our limited knowledge can never recognize and appreciate HIM, what more proof do we require?
1) As mentioned earlier working of a single living Cell, can we see HIS glory of how it works?
2) How a organ functions, starting from my brain,
a. How thousands of information are received and processed and stored for further use?
b. How I can see? Smell? Hear? Taste? Feel? (I can see HIS glory when each of my sense organs work! You will be hearing HIM talk hereafter…
c. When our lungs inhale and exhale… wait, not only that I am taking in and throwing out Air but I absorb only oxygen and exhaling air with more carbon-dioxide? Can you see HIS power?
d. The working of every organs commanded by brain, my parts of the body working that too, sometime in reflex, who thought them these miracles? Do we see God at least now?
e. My eyes shed out water, i.e. cry when one part of my body is hurt? Why? Glory
3) The working of universe starting from a Atom!
4) Who thought the electrons to circle around without coinciding with each other, same with planets. If you try to tell my about magnetic energy… we need some extra ordinary being to create and maintain them in harmony? He is my GTF, I can write books, but sorry I am very bad in typing…
Today, Now let us, Close the doors, be isolated from earthly pleasures. Call on HIM, HE will talk with you, then keep talking and you will see HIM… see you tomorrow with your revelation!
The things you mentioned are debatable evidence, but if we try to debate it we’ll be here for months or years. Instead, I will just ask, how is that proof of a Christian God rather than the Muslim God or Hindu god? Or a god that doesn’t care about humans, who created everything, but left us to our own devices?
Your question is a double edge sword! in other words, you are asking a very controversial first question, who is the real God? and the moving on to a very debatable question, Why is he silent,
My apologies to all concerned, My belief, with full respect is for my GTF (God Thee Father) for your second question, He is a living God” (“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments) we are suffering and death prevails on Earth though we are technologically advanced why and how? He is not silent! He is killing all the bad, wait… not in your time line but in HIS! If He starts punishing the people for their sins in our Timeline, then we will have very few left on Earth, similar to Noah time, then the world History will start again… but just because HE is punishing in this time-line as He is not bound by time or space, but He teaches each of us a very clean lesson, that is why we have children all over the world suffering, Who is The reason for their suffering, So that the targeted person repents and changes his life style! but how many of us are stopping all our sinful acts, The ten commandments are still valid which means Humans have not changed their way of living which will be acceptable to the Almighty.
If we surrender to HIM, He will take care of us as He is our Creator and knows all our needs but we will never as we are Humans, who are visiting different planets, but not able to control our senses!
I could make my own theology different to yours also. What separates mine from yours? Where is your evidence for your claims that the creator who created the universe is the Christian God?
-Nathan,
Peace be with you and good morning!
Encouraged by your willingness to reply, I am kindly writing to give you a metaphor I think might help:
Put yourself into an “Indiana Jones/Archeological” mindset for this one. Imagine a man who happens to be on safari in sub-Saharan Africa whom is 1000’s of miles away from home. He is greeted by many local priests who:
-Invite him to their ritual festivities and offer a bone necklace
-Share stories of their “creator” and point out the important stars
-Direct him to watch their drum beating, dancing and elaborate costumes & masks
-Engage him in libations
-Etc….
The man on safari, who realizes he is “just passing through,” generally humors their requests out of respect for different cultures (although he does respectfully “bow out” of the part where they sacrifice the goat) and wishes the tribesman well as he eventually leaves and goes on his merry way.
Now, when you take away the “safari” part, THIS is exactly the same mindset a non-believer who happens to live in general proximity with you feels not just towards your religion- but all religions.
Not at all speaking for Garbonzo’s belief structure here, however all he’s really asking you in his question is:
“Why does your tribe beat this particular drum instead of the one the other tribe uses?”
As you see, there’s no controversy intended-only a question!
We’re just passing through…
Your question is very clear, Why am following GTF not others, hope I am right?
I think, it is time tell my testimony,
It was June 21st night 2009, I was returning from my office on a ring road, time was around 10.30pm, on Yezdi bike at 110km speed, when I was on the hump, the speed breaker a person crossed the road in front of me, I knew that I will hit him if I continue, so I tried my level best not touch him, The scene closes there… I was told that my friend who was also coming behind me little later saw a crowd gathering on road side, so came near and found that it was body lying there with pool of blood all around, in that melee, he could recognise, that it was me and took me under great difficulty to near by hospital, who never let me in as I was already dead and they were fearing for a police case to follow(India). So He has again taken me a next nearby hospital where they have admitted me but after lot of hours of struggle, they have clearly said to all to have the last visit to see my face when I am alive, medically I was dead 99.99%. Again after this statement all my dear ones have not left their confidence in our Creator as they were praying full time and moved me to another hospital who have very clearly stated that they try their maximum, as they also declared that I was alive only 0.1% and never expect me to back into my routine work the impossible, The top doctor of then Workhart, now Fortis hospital has given three statements,
1) The heart has stopped for 7 long minutes, so we can expect some of body parts to fail,as they were in need of oxygen.
2) Don’t expect him to come back alive as old normal person face, as his skull will join as they cannot be plastered,He will have a new face so you all have to live with a new person, as his Skull has multiple fractures and the face shape depends on the joining,
3) After few days, I still was coma,paralised doctors have said that He will take about 6 months to just sit on the bed upright and about 2 year for him to walk,
All my well wisher were praying… and miracle happened. I was in my Wipro Technologies office which was in the Eighth floor after walking for all the 8 floors.
And today giving testimony to all who believe in Gods power, sitting in my super market which I have opened to avoid driving. Now your questions can be,
It was your friend and the the doctors who saved me, but that is human way of thinking but the doctors call me miracle man as none of part are damaged till date, I am leading a normal life.
The loss or gain, time can only tell me is that my wife and child left me as they expected me be a very burden if they stay with me…
My aged parents and my family members take care of me in case of emergency, which has not come till date from 2009,
The Super power who is guiding taking care of me is my GTF (GOD THEE FATHER), hope you saw him yesterday?
Wow, what a truly great and inspirational story, Nathan! I am very glad you are still with us here today and that this miracle happened.
Like Arista has said, many people from all different religions have had miracles happen to them, just like yours, which they attribute to their god saving them. How do we know it was your god that saved you and not a very big stroke of luck? Why is it that miracles happen to people that are not Christian? And why is it that God does not save everyone, but chose to save you? Isn’t that a bit arrogant when you think about it? “God let me live, but let someone else die, because I’m special,” is essentially what you’re saying.
Again, thank you for your experience and I’m glad you are here to discuss this with us. 🙂
Miracle’s happen to all, but each has a definite purpose for the divine to intervene,
The magical question is,
Are we able hear those words and understand its meaning?
It is the same situation for me from last 5 years, I am still waiting for my Creator to talk!
It is either, that I am deaf, or my understanding power has diminished, As HE is talking…but
And how do you know for sure that he is talking?
I like this question, it’s fun to ask people:
– “How often do you do what the voice in your head tells you to do?”
– (They think to themselves “what voice in my head?” and look at me funny)
– And then I say “The voice that just now asked “What voice in my head”” 🙂
Funny how FMRi studies have shown that the same region of the brain that’s associated with where a person formulates thoughts of what THEIR opinions are about something (i.e. “What do I think about abortion”) is the very same part of the brain activated when they’re asked “What does god think about abortion”… Yet when they’re asked “What does my coworker, friend, sister (or Obama, or any other real person) think about abortion” a different part is activated, the one that helps us try and determine the intent they have towards us (are they a threat to my safety? is this person trying to help me?)
Kinda explains why god always seems to hate the exact same people you hate, and like exactly the same things you do!
That is interesting. But I wonder if theists would just say that is because they are following God, and God’s thoughts are their thoughts. (I seem to remember a scripture like that.) In other words, once they learn “the truth”, their thoughts are their own and it coincides with God’s teachings.
Or, to turn the question around: once you understand why you toss the god (or gods) of someone else aside with utmost certainly (and, usually, without having read any of their holy books), you should be able to understand why and how other can toss aside your god (or gods) with the exact same utmost certainty.
Or, in other words, Nathan: can you explain to yourself (and afterward, us) why you are an atheist? Because I assume you do not believe in Zeus, Woton, Vishnu, Hiiakawawahilani, Babd Catha, Blodeuwedd or Belobog. So to these gods (and their followers), you are an atheist. And – according to most of these gods – and their followers – you will be severely punished for this after you die; and rightfully so.
Thanks for your testimony, Nathan. But you do understand that other people had experience like this too, but they (and their family) lay their fate in a different god (because of their culture, for instance). And when one does survive and heal, they (and there family members) are then convinced that their god did this; and is the only right (and sometimes existing one). In other words, personal experiences lead to different conclusions, without them actually being proven to be right and the only truth.
I have confused you, I think. When I say GTF it is my Yehweh, my Jahovah Our creator, How did I give a impression that I am an atheist?,
But you are pulling me into a very interesting topic about life after death…Can we continue tomorrow? I have lot to tell you about this. Good night, sorry Good evening to you all who are on the other side of the globe.
Do you believe in the existence of the god Odin? If you don’t, you are an atheist in regard to Odin. Do you believe in the existence of the god Zeus? If you don’t, you are an atheist in regard to Zeus. Do you understand that?
Before I leave for the day, I did not pull any of the other…Gods, I was only explaining about my Fathers power, others might have had similar experience but when the actual person who has gone through this trial only can explain to you in the better way, I was a chain smoker, occasional drinker, but today I am away from all these habits which kills the temple of the living God, our Heaven and Hell…
Sure, and that is great. I’m happy for your transformation. But I hope you do understand that people who did not have the same experience that you have, only have your word in regard to the things you say about your god. And also have the words of other people, in regard to their life altering experience and their god. And that the problem is that these stories (and gods) often oppose each other and cannot possibly both represent the truth. How then are we – the ones without any of these experiences – supposed to to find out who to believe? Why would your (supernatural) experience be the right and truthful one, and the (supernatural) experience of someone else the wrong one? How can you possibly know this without basically claiming that your experiences and feelings are more trustworthy than those of others? How do you measure feelings and experiences?
Many people have had near-death experiences (and there are many websites and books to tell their tales). Some meet Jesus. Others see Mohammed. Some see spaceships. Others claim to see someone or something not known to men. Some claim this something or someone put them at ease, because it was peaceful .Others claim it scared them, because it seemed aggressive and dangerous. Some meet deceased family members in an overly white colored place (while these family members were never religious; which contradicts the bible’s claims about who ends up in heaven). There are hundreds of contradicting stories about the afterlife after a near-death experience. They can’t logically all be right, if any. So how do we – who never had a near-death experience – determine which story is The Truth™?
Good morning, to you All,
Accordingly to me life after is myth with this many use this as a bite to pull in as humans we have lot of unfulfilled desires, as we start seeing money only after 35-40 years, meanwhile we are have lot of responsibilities to attend after a while we tend we forget our desires and even our body would have also become weak to continue… but with after life (assumption) get new body and new vigor, so…
Why I am so convinced for All is, We will have no body nor no brain to know the pain, just a human thought (even now there is no difference) We will not have any feelings either! Jesus himself clarifies this in Matthew 22:30
Good morning to you All,
For answering Arista question “And why would Matthew 22:30 be right?” Actually we can conclude the all discussions at this juncture itself though, and by saying we do not believe in… but No, we cannot as the discussion it is really getting interesting only now, as all these were my doubts sometime back, after lot of prayers you may not believe it was God’s power to make me understanding in these.
It is written in the Bible, Luke 20:36-Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Your comment :- no brain, no pain, no feelings even? Who would want that for an eternity? Nathan-This is, Eternity (underline and bold) which everyone is longing for…from the creation of Earth, in every hemisphere, Now confronting you directly, which is everybody experiencing at that moment is illusion it is either wine or women or material, only when you are going through that it seems like… but once it is achieved, we would never want it again but…do we have Contentment!?
Note : I am not sage, who has not experienced these, with Gods blessing, every thing but legally.
Your comment :- It seems like there is nothing left of the identity of the human being in your interpretation of Matt 22:30. What is left of the persona, that once lived in your body, in such an existance – memories of once having emotions, what are those memories worth, if you have no feelings?
Nathan-Very close to my understanding…A lot is left to identify though, we still remember Osama, Hitler,Mahatma Gandhi… but in the community where we lived and with our family for few…, as you do not carry your brain, and as memory is stored in that only, that is the reason we are asked to save treasures in Heaven when we are living in this earth with this body itself . as we don’t carry a penny,
Even, Alexander the great showed his palm out of the coffin for people like us only, to understand that we cannot carry anything back, we maybe …while on living on earth but…
Your comment :- If I turned into Christianity and died, and subsequently it was revealed to me, that it just happened to actually be the one true religion among the tens of thousands of different religions suggested by humanity ever – and as promised I would end up in Heaven, simply for believing it was true – could I not then there mourn for all of my relatives, who did not turn into Christianity and were suffering for an eternity simply for their ignorance on the matter? Would I really be me, not to be able to have feelings for them? How could I be happy for my own fate, if at the very same time all my loved ones were in constant anguish?
Nathan:-Very similar to the parable of Rich man and the beggar (No, offense please) Luke16;19,27,28,29. https://bible.org/seriespage/rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1614-31 ,
verse 30 is more important as human, verse,31 is the most important as we are NOT listening to any of the prophets or Word of God. Kindly read this parable,
No, It is a myth that if you are in religion suggested, that you will go heaven, it is like saying “I have bought the ticket, So I am eligible to reach the destination (human thinking) not that I will reach the destination but at least we have use the given ticket by traveling i.e you have catch the bus/ train or flight as per your money spent, and have the guts and perseverance to stay in the wagon till the destination is reached, hope you got the message, It is sure that I will not be going to Heaven, just because I am a born Christian or as I received my conformation or as I receive communion every time I attend the mass,
My Summary/Conclusion;- I need to live a life worthy of being called as Son of the Creator, as I will be going to HIM only in Heaven.
No feelings, no emotions, no nothing? So in heaven we become the robots god didn’t want us to be on earth? What are we if not our memories and experiences?
For example: the mother of a friend of mine once suffered memory loss for one day. She didn’t recognize her husband, her children, music she liked, nothing. What was most scary about this, according to my friend, was that she so obviously didn’t love him. And why would she: she had never seen him before… So even motherly love seems only a brain function deep.
We live a life of experiences, pain, emotions. That is how we learn and are shaped into who we are. A friend of mine once asked: ‘what is the sense in gaining this, if all gets lost when you die? Where is the purpose?’ An afterlife could make sense in that we need these earthly experiences for later. But if we lose everything and don’t even recognize ourselves, nor the ones we loved, after death, what use is being on earth in the first place? And in these shoddy flesh-suits, no less, that are prone to malfunction. Why not immediately start in heaven to begin with? (And don’t give me: god is testing you. God is all-knowing, so he doesn’t have to test anything. He already knows all the results.)
And the question about proof remains a valid one, Nathan. It is fun to speculate about what could be, but without any evidence to back it up, it remains just that: speculation. Not something I would bank my life on, let alone my death.
No feelings, no emotions, no nothing? So in heaven we become the robots-This is new generation word for either Angel or God Child, This was mistake our fore-parents did for which we and children/our grand children are going to suffer! and what did we achieve till today?
We invented Ship/Aero plane/Train/… All working principles copied from Nature, Creations of God.
What are we if not our memories and experiences?-Very nicely asked and helped me, what did you bring when you came?
You are giving the example of your friends mother, while I am the living testimony, I could not add in in testimony yesterday, let me tell that today…I had lost my memory…forgot my parents relatives the whole world, even to use a screw driver, or open the door! Except for my Son and wife, who anyway left me to live with some one else…
Only my Parents, aged 80 and 75 are my well wishers who are with me preparing and serving food. So what ever little memory I am left with, what is the use???
Only my heavenly Father has not changed till date neither will He, ever in future.
As human, what you say perfectly holds good, we need experience to get started with for any of our present routine work, but when I first learned to swim or cycle,I learn it after lot … What about the machines i have worked upon till date! I would have been a dumbo till date, (even now, i am). If had to have previous memory or experience, In India, the most asked question is How can we experience as mandatory for a husband & wife! Ask the same question from the other side of the table, I have designed lot of products, note the question now, What experience does that product have to work continuously.
What ever you say is perfectly fitting for a human life. So what I can see in your explanation is our after life will be same the life we are living TODAY? How can we even think like this?
We have the answer in the Bible, but fragmented. But explained by different people in different way…
Very rightly said, we are in this shoddy flesh-suits, no less, which is prone to malfunction, always. Yes, You were right! God need not test us, as he knows everything but not our decisions, which can either be good or bad, (sin or sinless). The same situation as our first-parents had, they then, without any prior knowledge like us. but had Dominion over the whole world but we lost for single fruit, today also we have the same Dominion over the whole world, but we fail for senses and break The Ten commandments, and still we are going further away from HIM,
If with only five senses working and the pleasures we get through them is so good…
Just imagine in the heaven! We are always told that this earthly life is transit for our journey to heaven,
What is wrong in testing me for my faith and authenticity, for the authority that will be given to me when I will be in Heaven.
I was testing the products and getting it approved through UL, NEBS so on, for equipment going to work in houses or offices then, We going to be placed in Heaven!?
Why shouldn’t God test us, as we understand it is for our Good. It is like the stone which take the maximum hit is called as Idol while the one which broke during the process is used in the stair way or as waste
Somewhere I read, God could have just created Humans like robots without reasoning power, But HE is God who has created us with FREE WILL, only then He knows that we are with HIM, for OUR good.
Luke 16:10-He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
And why would Matthew 22:30 be right?
@Nathan. Interresting point of view. No body, no brain, no pain, no feelings even? Who would want that for an eternity? It seems like there is nothing left of the identity of the human being in your interpretation of Matt 22:30. What is left of the persona, that once lived in your body, in such an existance – memories of once having emotions, what are those memories worth, if you have no feelings?
If I turned into Christianity and died, and subsequently it was revealed to me, that it just happened to actually be the one true religion among the tens of thousands of different religions suggested by humanity ever – and as promised I would end up in Heaven, simply for believing it was true – could I not then there mourn for all of my relatives, who did not turn into Christianity and were suffering for an eternity simply for their ignorance on the matter? Would I really be me, not to be able to have feelings for them? How could I be happy for my own fate, if at the very same time all my loved ones were in constant anguish?
@Arista, that is the main question. Good one!
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” – Revelation 21:1-8 NASB
Matthew Chapter 22:23-33, which is about the Sadducees, in regards to the Resurrection:
“23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24 asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.”
Titus 1:1-4 NKJV
“1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”
Blessings
Theist, atheist, monotheist, deist, agnostic, polytheist:
A theist believes there is a God who made and governs all creation; but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation.
The atheist disbelieves even the existence of a God. He thinks matter is eternal, and what we call “creation” is the result of natural laws.
A monotheist conceives of God as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and active in the governance and organization of the world and universe.
The deist holds that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of a supreme being as creator.
An agnostic believes only what is knowable. He rejects revelation and the doctrine of the Trinity as “past human understanding.” He is neither theist, deist, nor atheist, as all these are past understanding.
The polytheist has the belief that multiple gods exist, but do not intervene with the universe.
Correct me if these definitions are wrong. I know there are far more than those listed, but these seem to be the ‘biggies”.
Just trying to come to grips with everyone’s beliefs/disbeliefs.
Links:
https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/religion-14/types-of-religions-105/theism-and-monotheism-591-7853/
http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/brewers/theist-deist-atheist-agnostic.html
“The atheist disbelieves even the existence of a God. He thinks matter is eternal, and what we call “creation” is the result of natural laws.”
One of the tricky things about the word “atheist” is that it can mean different things, based on the person, a little like how the word “Christian” can mean different things, based on the person. Some atheists may, in fact, actively disbelieve the existence of *any* god, others, like myself, rather passively do not believe there is any god and I am open to consider evidence for the existence of a god. For me, it’s a question of evidence, even the word “believe” doesn’t really apply. For example, I do not *believe* the Big Bang happened, I accept the science that says it happened. This may seem like a subtle, even semantic, difference, but there can be rather big ramifications.
It’s also inaccurate to say “the atheist believes in eternal matter”, for many, possibly even most, atheists don’t.
As has been mentioned earlier, everyone is an atheist to a degree. I am an atheist about the god Thor, the god Apollo and the god Yahweh. Every Christian I know of is also an atheist about the gods Thor and Apollo and all other gods except Yahweh.
If the topic is getting diverted because of my last question, Can I have better understanding of Lord, “Jesus Christ our Savior”.
We are confused, our discussion was only on God, Satan and Human, I suppose? not…
I am not debating on your definitions, as they are real leanings for all of us, at least for me. God gave free will to my fore parents, so we can call ourselves anything… nothing will change any way. Jesus Christ will be Savior to those who believe …
Evidence, is a very good word, but useful for Science and court, I suppose, but If you still insist on Evidence for existence of God himself! kindly answer some of my doubts, I will try to answer in your answer itself,
Life/Existence: Can you explain the meaning of this?
you may come across the word, Possessing life: which is opposite of dead. both are still vague!
It is like asking a person to give evidence for him to exist?(can we) All that person may answer, check my pulse, my breathing, my memory, my vision, my hearing power… so now my question to you, is the person alive or existing if all of these are proven positive? I will prove it wrong, because I need evidence for his existence for his living, not proof that his parts of the body are working! Boring is it? Yes, I feel the same this side also, But let us again start from the working of a cell or atom, thanks for not bringing in the big bang theory, then let us move to a tissue and the organ, if you prove that with reports that all parts are working then the person is alive! You have given me evidence for existence of GOD HIMSELF,
Tell me how can we see, hear, breath, feel smell, feel, when all these can happen without any hitch!
GOD IS ALIVE, and making this happen, wait not in one person but in every BODY across the globe, at present we about 7 billion it seems!
Can we imagine the storage capacity, processing speed, volume, I am talking about God only?
God said, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the ALL: ‘I AM has sent me to you.'” Exodus 3:14.
From now on it will be, one to one directly? Can we!!!
This is from our Creator, first commandment,
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.- We are supposed to be without any bondage, but we of all…are we?
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.( Minimum how many Gods we worship in a day? except, Yahweh
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments._Exodus 20
“Life/Existence: Can you explain the meaning of this?”
Meaning/purpose is something we have to give ourselves. And that applies to everything. What is the meaning/purpose of god? Why is he, and why is he the way he is? Why didn’t he create other gods instead of us pesky humans? Why did he do away with (the council of) El, and his wife Asherah? What happened to him to become such a loner? Why didn’t he create a mother for himself, who would pamper him, hold him, make him a lovingly breakfast and sing him lullabies? Would he not have been more happy that way? I worry about god. Because the majority of the things he created, turned against him. But a good mom would never do that.
Sure, it applies to everything but only to some selected in the everything, As you are able to read sitting on the other side of the globe and reply?? and you are calling us pesky humans! how dare:)
I am on your side to console God as majority, no almost everything he created turned against HIM, but see his perseverance and the glory of Heaven! what may be in store for those who qualify?
And you are talking about present day Moms! who are very modern in all… who has no time for the offspring’s but blame the same child of not spending time or not taking proper care when they are grown up! they get old by then, who thought the children this formula that “Run behind money and everything else will follow” but actually it is “Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. …” (Hope you were not talking about me! as I am THE most blessed in our locality now, I leave my house in the morning, by walking to reach my Super Market and stay in the same place till late evening, spending my time in leisure, No traffic, no boss, no target to be met, and shut the door if If I need rest, nothing to worry as HE takes care of all my needs! My friends tell me that God has given me early retirement. Praises to Him! Amen (How many of you are blessed like me.)
But what is the purpose of all that?
In other words; why does god exist? What is the purpose of the existence of a god?
Now, we have almost reached the climax! But the next lines to follow are only for believers, that too in My Father, sorry our Father.
He is beginning and the end… same lines, Everything started in Heaven, it will end in The heaven that is the purpose… He created humans in particular to test whether they are worthy to enjoy the pleasures in Heaven, then to Glorify and follow his commands. This is my understanding as Nathan_2, Nathan_1 was only interested in creating wealth on the pseudo earth, for satisfying my senses. Some where in the beginning someone asked me, should I get similar experience as yours to believe in God, then change. It is like telling that “No I dont believe that ice red hot means you can’t touch it, I will believe only after I touch and know it is hot! Your wish, but if we understand His greatness and believe, glorify and live as per his commandments, WE LIVE IN HEAVEN! AMEN.
That is only the purpose of why people exist. You still didn’t answer why god exists. What is his purpose?
Thank you, for understanding and accepting the purpose of Human birth, but I should appreciate your talent to make me type, so much! now that we have passed Kinder garden, let us both… no all, together try to understand why God exists? Any takers?
Only one example I can remember, One day of a new customer came inside our Super Market, spent less than few minutes, but asked me, So how long have you been here? I never understood his question, as I looked at him. He continued, I am a veteran in this locality, most of the people around this place know me, and by the way what is your shop all about, can you take me around and explain but also how is that I did not met you, I understood his message, I told him politely, Sir I am here from a long time, and just because you never knew me or my Super Market, does it mean that I never existed or just because you did have not time to go through our shop introduction welcome note/pamphlets that were distributed before and after our Inauguration, It was a event every time, sorry that you missed to even notice but can you please tell all your friends, at least now that you know HIM?
(Cooked up story:- but hope you got the message)
I can’t really see why one would even bother to answer your question when you make it perfectly clear that you have your mind already made up on what the answer is and will not accept any alternative. One should, I suppose, thank you for letting one know spending any time on an answer would be a total waste of time.
Maroo, I’m afraid you are mistaken about my intentions. I am very interested in religion and god. I will always be open to have my mind changed. That is also how science works: to be stuck in ones way because one choses to be. So my advice to you would be to refrain from personal attacks and to stick to the arguments. Question: what is the purpose of god?
I was responding to Nathan’s question, I apologize for any confusion.
No problem 😉
Correction regarding my former post: ‘That is also how science works: to NOT be stuck in ones way because one choses to be.’
Sorry, Can I have better understanding of Lord, “Jesus Christ our Savior”.
Nathan,
Yes you can. We are fallen, subject to sin. God the Father has lavished on us the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ, His only Son, who lived a perfect life, died on the cross and rose again on the third day. He is the ONLY way unto salvation, and we as a human race, need to recognize our need for Him, repent of our sins, which is a turning away from our wrongdoings (our transgressions), and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save us from eternal condemnation. The Holy Bible will speak to you. Our Creator God has given us 66 ‘love letters’, 66 books, in which, contains life lessons and a power far greater than anyone can imagine. God’s word is sharper than any two-edged sword, able to divide soul and spirit (Hebrews 4:12). Do you have a Bible? The book of John, in the New Testament, is a great place to start. Of course, ironically, another great place to start is Genesis 1:1, which reads, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”
The term ‘lord’, in its courteous and respectful meaning, is someone who is ‘ruler over another, and or others’. Jesus Christ, to His followers, is Lord of lords. He is the Master of the mighty.
For Christians, “we are no longer slaves to sin (vs 6)…, but are alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord (vs. 11).” Romans 6.
Blessings.
Very powerful, but I am with GTF only, but my not with anybody else, as My Father as very clearly given Ten commandments, and first being I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me.-after Him either!
My argument, convince my understandings is wrong, I will get convinced if you are able to…There is only one God, and there was only one God until,
” Background
When Theodosius ascended to the imperial throne in 380, he began on a campaign to bring the Eastern Church back to Nicene Christianity. Theodosius wanted to further unify the entire empire behind the orthodox position and decided to convene a church council to resolve matters of faith and discipline.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Constantinople.
We had only one God, even in India we have similar God making! With regards to Buddha,
Can you create a new blog with this as the title, I will then meet you on the stage.!
Where in the Bible does it say God foreknew that Lucifer would sin? Nowhere. He only knew that man would sin, that was later before He recreated the earth. Now He had a salvation plan, which was possible, because man didn’t invent sin himself, which he would have done eventually, one of Adam’s offspring and now they could get saved because they weren’t created perfect, knowing all like Lucifer was and they were mislead and the fleshly nature could get killed with Christ, so they would be perfect again and had a chance to disobey without the possibility of forgiveness and getting holy again and reconciled. You think they wouldn’t have sinned? I guess that was what God thought too: I make them perfect and they won’t sin, but since Satan invented sin and the whole foreworld sinned with him without the possibility of it ever coming good again He did it different this time. Adam was created in His Image: without knowing good or evil, innocent, so God was also innocent and only knew good in the beginning and never would have thought Lucifer would sin, Light can’t even invent darkness, He is Light, darkness is the absence of light. He knew good and evil when He created Adam, knowing is knowing by experience and since He never sinned He could only know it because He had experience with this rebelling angel. The first thing satan did was implying that God was bad and he still has his same age old tricks and people fall for it.
Good morning,
Lucifer/ Satan:- How many us will agree that God created it!
The story I have heard is, Lucifer was an angel with God, when it tried to become like God, It was thrown out to earth from Heaven, (God did not know that it go and create havoc, with human) are we still in the perception of Heaven is a extended earth, which will have kings ruling, some what like medieval period?
Salvation:- We require this only when we have sinned and not coming back to the Creator (GTF). We need to go back our Creator, do you think we can create, let it be a product, a food preparation, a child doing their home work, just for the sake of doing it? knowing that it will be failure? then what was the compulsion on GTF to create us, in the first place?
We all have a purpose to be on the pseudo earth, which was everything to Alexander the Great, but till he conquered it, after that it was just a illusion.
For everyone of us, also this Earth that we living in, is a testing pad, if we come out in flying colours we can celebrate, for being in heaven or…who on earth itself would like his own creation, can be anything…to be a failure and cast into a dustbin? then do you think God would like that to happen to us, His favorite creation? So he was sending his chosen people, who have understood His plan(maybe had better IQ) to explain to the fellow beings, as they can talk in their language and level (parables) that is why most of the parables are not understood by our present age children who are not aware of love of father and mother! how will they understand cultivation, weed, seed, good tree, wine plant, soil, silver coins, sixty fold and hundred fold, lost sheep, prodigal son, good Samaritan… to name a only few.
I liked your ” He is light, and light can’t invent darkness” superb but according to definitions, where there is no light it is called as darkness? To continue in the same line, God created human beings and gave them only one command “Do not eat from that particular tree, which is bad for you, as you will have knowledge of good and bad! but the whole trees in garden was available for you eat!. Same situation year 2014; you are given with YOUR wife, car, children, mom, dad, office, house, but says, “Do not LUST for other goods!?…I am not talking about need or necessity, but about pleasure. which is arrived at once our needs are satisfied? for some the needs list never get complete, there is new model of car released when I buy my own car!
How many of us are able to follow the command, “Thou shalt not covet”?The whole world, starting from a child who is not satisfied with the toy it has, to a youth who likes the friends friend,or a father, who wants wife of of his… or for wife, husband of their…including our politicians who want the neighboring state than what they own and list continues,
Can we have one human who can confess and give testimony that ” He is content, and does not regret to die now? at least one on this planet, 7 billion is count now?
Only, Then the new earth and new heaven can be created! Amen
Yes, I agree with you, that is how science works?! but we not in science forum, I suppose and not here to prove my findings, I am sharing my experience with all as I should not repent like the rich man,
Science:- To answer, you in language, Give me one living cell or organ or system to prove that science is everything! According to me, Science is discoverer while Only God is Inventor!
Can we move to next topic “How is Jesus called as son of God?(then who is the mother?) is it vulgar? As I feel that I am insulting my sorry Our Father by calling only Jesus as Son of God!
who has suggested that “science is everything” ? Science is a rigorous process by which we learn about aspects of nature, nothing more, nothing less. It is curious that the person who opened this line of questioning in the first place is the one calling for it to come to an end.
How is Jesus called the son of God? One can reasonably speculate it was done by a small group of peasants who perhaps thought it might give the words and acts of Jesus a certain level of authority they otherwise would not have. Or perhaps this small group of peasants actually believed Jesus *was* the son of God, or perhaps an incarnation of that God. History shows us time and time again (though not as much in recent history) how followers of a charismatic leader tend to raise the mythology of that leader to the level of being a deity.
In terms of the story of Jesus as fairy tale and reconciling plot holes, this one seems simple enough. God is supposedly all powerful. It would be easy enough for God to make Mary, the mother of Jesus, pregnant by means of some kind of cosmic artificial insemination.
But why did Mary have to get pregnant? The answer usually is: because jesus needed to be sinless he could not be born out of a human father’s seed – because then he would carry the original sin. But why did he need to get born in the first place? Adam and Eve were created without a mother and father also and were perfect; before the sinned. So why make a married but barren woman pregnant, why not create Jesus from scratch? From a theological stance this makes sense because the Torah claims that the messiah has to come from the bloodline of David. This raises the suspicion that the writers of the gospels invented the Born-Through-Marry story in order to fullfil a prophecy. Problem is: the Torah is very clear that the bloodline needs to come through the father, not the mother. Which is one of the reasons why Jews don’t buy the Jesus story in the first place.
it all seems like a bit of revisionist history to me. The starting point is that Jesus existed. Then comes the proposition that Jesus is divine, the Son of God. Then come the arguments to support the claims of divinity. Reminds me a bit of the line in the Dire Straits’ song “Telegraph Road” . . . “then came the lawyers, then came the rules.”
There is an interesting debate going on in regard to what the historical Jesus actually taught and the so-called Pauline Christianity that Paul managed to transform these teachings into. The general consensus is that Paul is the one who created the idea that Jesus died for our sins and that you need him as a savior in order to be able to enter heaven. Once this story was created, scripture had of course to be altered (including the Torah – which became the adjusted Old Testament) in order to fit the bill. One motivation might have been the prophecies of the Torah: whoever could prove to be the Jewish Messiah would become the King of the Jews (including all the benefits that come with that). No wonder that many a ‘messiah’ tried to apply for this throne. Because Jesus had to be sinless, in order to be able to pay for our sins, he could not be born out of humans (just like Adam and Eve). But the problem is that the Torah is very specific about the fact that the messiah has to be born out of David’s bloodline. So Jesus had to born out of a human, but being born out of a human, makes one carry the original sin; meaning that one is not perfect. Quite the conundrum. So I think it is quite likely they invented a story were the messiah would be half god (= perfection, or: sinless) and half human (because of the required bloodline). The problem with this construct is, that David can’t possible carry the child (being male and all), and neither can god (ditto). So their best option was to chose Mary as the human counterpart; because she is from David’s bloodline also. I guess they just hoped that no-one would notice that the bloodline had to come from the father 😉
You are saying only truth,
1)Pauline Christianity, that Paul managed to transform these teachings into???
_We have most of the Christian offshoots reading only the letters written by Paul to …
2) Paul is the one who created the idea that Jesus died for our sins and that you need him as a savior in order to be able to enter heaven.
_There is the catch, We as Humans are sentimental, who at the end of the day will melt if someone cries! If some has died for your sins, then…Guide me, have we ever changed even after knowing that a life was sacrificed for you sin, SO DO NOT SIN! No we need a different formula to be within our frame work, (Indian who is in Singapore or … will never think of going out of the set rule, but once he is back to his homeland, He let lose all rules and enjoys only by not following the rules! why/How? The person has not changed, then what stops him from following…?
Humans require/need someone to watch and punish, it will be more painful if the fine is money, In other countries we have all watched and reported immediately. But he knows in India, we are,
1.Compassionate, 2 take it easy, 3. second chance, 4. time to punish…All these qualities are entrusted to God, why/How? Has anything changed after this, yes! we have God who is very compassionate, who will never punish even if you break The Ten commandments?
…Now, fill in this sentence, The deaths have increased, We have more natural calamities taking more life though we are technologically, We have no peace even if we have most riches in the world, There are new disease to combat than enemies at the warfare? We are technically ruling the world but in reality, we do not know the capacity our brain, nor its working and NOT able to control our sense!
We need, that is why we already have a punishing God, but who compassionate, Who does not hit you, when you commit a mistake first time, but if you do again after knowing that it was sin the first time itself then, our 3-4 generations are taken care(does this answer why does God kill Children).
No, that is not the answer, GTF wanted to show how powerful He is! as people had forgotten his power when he parted the SEA, fed thousands of people for 40 years, …
We need proof and evidence for everything we touch, How then we can change the concept of a miracle, where a virgin is conceived, according to me THIS IS MIRACLE, but we humans wanted to make while the sun shines, changed the concept to God being born, so the place of birth should be sinless? How can it become sinful birth, as the marriage is conducted by parents, agreeing for all things to follow as they were…
But one more doubt, what is this original sin? we have better sins now in the past 2000 years, like AIDS… then how is this escape from original sin?
(Sorry,God please forgive me) this is unparliamentary again in human perceptive, sorry again. If God is father then who is mother?
Now, do you agree, God is beyond all these silly relations, who are neither with us when we come, nor join us when we go. Then what are these relations? Use and throw napkins?
My apologies, to whoever is hurt, I was first to get hurt, though. but we need to eat uncoated tablets sometimes, for the decease is very severe. just answer one more doubt, are born just because it is nature… the sperm fuses by itself?
I am in full agreement with your understanding,
As God is God, no Incarnation, no Son, if it was so, nobody could have even thought of touching Thee God! but we are Humans with limited knowledge and understanding, We at least in India, have built a temple for an actress, so for a man who emphasized that you will be healed if you have faith in God that you will healed every time, when he did a miracle,
Can we from human perspective, equate him to Father Almighty! and also we claim that he was sacrificed for my sins?? that too 2014 years back? (am I authorized to sin?)
Now, Anybody can answer to this question, As a human father will anyone accept our son as sacrifice to forgive someone’s sin, that too forever? So do understand, to what a pathetic level we brought down our Creator?
He was such a person who had stopped Abraham from sacrificing Issac, for he was testing his faith only. Then… someone enlighten me on how this story evolved, for 2000 years!
WHY NOBODY GOT DOUBT AND QUESTIONED? but I have just started, in my church, my community…
I agree with you. The problem with the sacrifice is that god is all-knowing. God already knew beforehand that he would lose his son for only 3 days (not even, actually: from Friday evening to Sunday morning). Now, sacrificing your son forever; meaning that you know you will never see your child again, yeah, that is a tough one. (And in god’s case: the holy trinity would cease to be, as Jesus would never be a part of the equation again (being separated from god in hell and all).
But sacrificing your child while knowing beforehand that it will be 36-to-72 hours and that your son will then sit right next to your throne, alive and well and a full member of the holy tri-union again…
I am sorry to disagree with you,
God would have known that Jesus will be killed, if it was his son, do we think God would have just watched? You know we are talking about God, Yahweh who is known for killing the sinners then and there!
Not losing his SON for 3 or 2.5 days, if you agree it was sacrifice, then we have a lot to debate, though.
You are bringing trinity? Are you saying that Jesus sacrificed himself to himself, sorry confused,
As per my little knowledge, bold/underline every letter to follow.
Jesus was born by the power of holy spirit, not of Yahweh!
He was only conceived miraculously to show the power of Our Creator not born, or it would have a magic…
First of all, it cannot be accepted as people of that time took Jesus as a challenger and will take the power on his side, as all the people were turning to his side, as He was curing all diseases, for free. So the bottom level rulers wanted to finish him, and they achieved it. none of the people, which includes the 12 nominated disciples had the belief, we can understand this when we see all either fled the scene or could not open their mouth, even when they were asked, whose release they would prefer?
Even today, I am not fully a believer,as I use my knowledge and wisdom to run the Super Market, though I know it is not my wish but HIS will would prevail. that is why even Jesus prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” How can Jesus pray like a human, who is afraid of the pain he has to undergo? If it was some thing which He had asked and taken then…
Humans are Humans, Even John the baptist was called the least among heavenly beings, who had never ever satisfied his senses, from the time he was born!
Nathan, I do not know if you consider yourself Jewish of Christian, but if you are a believer in (a version of one of) the Abrahamic religions, I suggest you begin with reading up on the ‘Council of El’ and the history of the (many) pre-Islamic, pre-Arabic middle eastern gods (of which Yahweh is one). For good measure I would throw in Asherah too, Yahweh’s former wife. It is an interesting journey, how the pantheistic middle east slowly gave birth to monotheistic religions; and what traces of this history can still be found in both the torah and the bible. After this, I would suggest reading up on how the torah and the bible came to be. Who were the people who wrote (parts) of them and who were the people that decided which texts were to become part of the finalized books (and which texts didn’t) and why.
Arista, Thank you, I have already started, but would like inform all that, I was normal Christian-meaning going to Church only on a Sunday or on Occasions, and we had our family prayers every day without fail Or my parents will not have the complete dinner that night, we all used have dinner together after our family prayer, even if come from office late!.
But I was, before the accident episode, was a firm believer in Jesus as god, but after the accident I could not accept him at all, I am talking about the year 2009 same period, I was getting a different understanding when I heard Bible reading, or read myself, from then onwards, my life path is different, that too, till our divorce, I had lot of bandages and fear to continue in my belief, but immediately after, I was made to understand that, I was serving two masters? but now I had the FREE WILL, to fail for my senses or… follow the Creator and proclaim who He IS, You may not believe, I am completely possessed by HIM, But still I know, there is long way to go and I, have 7 billion people to reach and proclaim, Who is the real God? Now guide me…
As per my learning and understanding,
when, as slaves Israelis had lot of God/Gods. but once during their exile, they understood, who is the real God!
as they were fed for more than 500 years, that too with food of their choice? taken care from calamities and enemies, fully protected, both in day and night.
Now, my understanding has got deeper roots, thanks for your support.
We have only ONE GOD!
Also of interest, I think, are the archaeological findings that suggest there may have been a kind of class warfare scenario in Pre-Judaic Canaan. One class of Canaanites in what was essentially a slave system revolted against the upper class of Canaanites and, after defeating the upper class rejected all of the things associated with that upper class, one of which was a polytheistic religion (possible parallels here to the slave episodes of the Old Testament). If this indeed happened, one could say that things would have been better if the victorious rebels had rejected religion altogether, but instead of rejecting religion altogether, they adopted a monotheistic religion which was, I suppose, “different enough” from the polytheistic religion of their former masters.
Nathan,
Here are some links that may help you on your walk/search for answers:
The Bible
https://www.biblegateway.com/
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html
The apocrypha
http://www.gotquestions.org/apocrypha-deuterocanonical.html
The Torah
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-Torah.html
Moses’ authorship of the Torah
http://www.gotquestions.org/Moses-Deuteronomy.html
Authorship of the Pentateuch
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=857
The Canaanites
http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites-slaves.html
The goddess Asherah
http://www.compellingtruth.org/asherah.html
(standing on the shoulders of giants)
Blessings
Thanks, a ton though it may take a while… but your good will is well appreciated!
Nathan, a good way to determine the truth is to ask the same questions to people from different fields. Because if you only focus on the opinion of people ‘on your side’, you will only get to hear what you want to hear and will never be challenged. So do pitch many questions towards Got Questions. But also pitch the exact same questions to jewish websites, islamic ones, new age ones, philosophical ones, atheistic ones, deistic ones, archeological ones, biological ones, linguistic ones, etc. Be sure to pitch questions about Christianity to websites of other faiths (and different Christian denominations) and questions about other faiths to Christian ones. I always found that to be a good way to discover who is making it up on the spot, who is deliberately leaving information behind that hurts his case, and who has the best proof, evidence and/or logic to back up his position. Please do, as you are in for an amazing journey of which no one knows where it might bring you.
Sorry, my understanding are,
There is only one God.
Jesus was a human like us but after 30 years he went on preaching about God, not John the Baptist who was a born…
Jesus can never be equated to Our, God, No Trinity, As, others written their understanding and revelation not facts with proof! My apologies to stern believers in Trinity, as you just need to understand that this happened only 300 years after Jesus death!
Say whatever you want and do as u please, but I saw to you “one day you will face you created and the full image of your ignorance will be revealed to you.
You engage in the quest for knowledge, and you fell victim of its inevitable infection. You feel you know much and you think you can clarify hidden mysteries and open the eyes of others to realities
But I say to you “You will account for every misleading you make from this blog”
If only Chinua Achebe and other dead Atheist would come back and tell you what life IS over there!! They might explain it to you better
Best Of Lucks
Misleading:- that’s is the right word, we have been doing this for centuries and we may still continue doing this.!
If you believe in Bible completely, From Genesis is there is no mention of 3 person? no where in the Genesis, we have three God’s, only the spirit of God is mentioned as God is spirit and He is Holy, so He is holy spirit,
Yes, Jesus birth is miracle meaning
He was born to a virgin
Born by influence of Holy spirit
But this was to show the power of thee God, but we humans take that in our local way…
Then if Jesus is son of God, then Mary is Mother of Jesus, so 1+1=2?… Humans!!!
We are so ignorant to make all creations as Gods and worship them, from old testament, the given commandments are very clear, just follow them, but we want a very easy going God, not a punishing God, so we keep on adding whom ever we want as God,
Tomorrow is the feast of Mary in India?
Do we know the definition of God?
What ever Jesus spoke was all from old testament? Only his flavor was added as per the generation he was living, like today’s urban children will not understand the parables which are based on agriculture, soil, SHARING, so on… so my church father Jay, explains to children in their language, so…
God is above all this simple things, Jesus did most of his miracles to glorify the Father and to test the faith, of people who ran away including his disciples, They wanted to cure their illness free of cost? but Jesus also said I cannot perform any miracle in my home town as none of you are believing me, as they were giving the reference of the mother, father and brothers…
Believe me, I am not an atheist, I am a firm believer only our Creator not in creations, tell me has a single way of life changed after Jesus was made as God? We are still facing death. We all call him savior, who sacrificed his life to save us from our sins?
Climax:- Did Jesus sacrifice himself to himself to save the, ever dying humans? (Trinity)Whom are we trying to change with sentiment card, we are still dying, because our Father gave death as a penalty for sinners. we, humans killed Jesus, for the fear of he taking over the power reigns, and Jesus died like any other prophets like John the baptist, who never tasted wine or any thing we call as pleasure!, If Jesus was God, do you think, any human could have even thought of touching him, even in their dreams?
We proclaim, by one man sin came into this world, but by a another man sin was eliminated if so, no one who believes in Christ should die? but our life expectancy is reducing, at least in old testament we can see people living for more than 100 years, but now… whom do we blame?
To take your comments personally, prove me wrong, we all have taken it for granted, but why don’t one us, question back? Ten commandments are very clear… You shall have any other God, so we can we make some one equal to him? and for this you want the dead people to come & tell me?
I ‘m glad you ‘re referring to the Epicurean paradox; he was so much to the point!
Now, why not consider this? Satan must be really (and I mean really-really) stupid… “He” has never been on strike… That would be interesting…
And now, what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
They were, those people, a kind of solution.
Waiting for the Barbarians [http://www.cavafy.com/poems/content.asp?id=119&cat=1]
When only God exists, there is no question of stupid Satan existing,
Again I repeat,
There is no Satan existing with that of a GTF, who is, absolute omnipotent, omniscient!
Satan is name-cover we are using, to cover our sins committed for pleasure!
Congrats on your articles!
I don’t know if others have suggested it (I didn’t have the time to read but few of the comments) but don’t you think it would worth to be mentioned that neither the creation of Lucifer nor the cosmic battle in heavens have any scriptural basis…? Or maybe Jesus is Lucifer after all…
FIrst I would like to say that you have provided some interesting points. Questions I have asked myself. Also the cartoon at the beginning was very funny.
Genesis 1:27-28
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (28) God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Man was given authority over himself, the earth and all living creatures. So Adam and Eve had everything that was needed to stand against Satin. However they chose not to. Some say, “well if God is sovereign why did He not just stop all of this. Well, if studied out, sovereign was never used in the King James translation of the Word. And I believe that this term sovereign has been misused by even Christians. The dictionary defines “sovereign” as, “1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent.” None of these definitions means that God controls everything. If we take these definitions, God is sovereign but He gave authority or rule to Adam and Eve. As a result, Adam and Eve gave their authority over to Satan when they chose to believe his words. This resulted in Hell on Earth literally. Out of love for us and His creation, God sent His son, Jesus, to reconcile us back to Him and give us our rightful place as the authority figures on this planet. We let these things happen on Earth because of our lack of understanding of spiritual things. No, these questions you have asked can not be answered in our human thinking, for our human thinking is very limited because we think on things we can see, touch, hear, smell and taste. However, in the spirit, God wishes to answer all these and more for you. May the God of love be with you.
I agree with all of your thoughts, except “God sent His son, Jesus, to reconcile us back to Him”
Jesus is not the only son of God, we are also…it is now 2014 years since he came, what is change, though we are dying early then before.
We are not able to follow thee Ten commandments given more than 3000 years back, not a single human is able to control their senses? and challenge the Temptations
Very interesting. In my book Bridges: An Extraordinary Journey of the Heart, the main character has an encounter with Satan. She asks why God cast Satan to Earth and to God’s garden of Eden. What was he doing in God’s garden? And more importantly why was there a tree of the knowledge of good and evil there? The book attempts to answer these questions through a mesmerizing plot that has been called something like The Da Vinci Code, but better, and rated 5 stars.
The entire Galaxy, weather created by God or something else, consists of matter and anti-matter. In order for something to exist, it appears that something else that is not it must exist. This would apply to characteristics of that “thing” as well. This binary reality is the basis for our entire understanding of the material world.(Recently, I have read of quantum physics studies of waves that appear to actually impact things the that “already happened.” That perhaps will change our reliance on binary logic and may reveal more about the true nature of time. But I digress.). God can only be “good” and is the only thing that can be called Good, we are told in the Manuel. Those things that He created were all good (also in the Manuel). Those things were given a choice to remain good or not. Did God have foreknowledge? Of course. Did he create evil? Not a chance. The fact that those He created would become evil was something He knew and made provision for. For me to comprehend Something that is eternal, all knowing, and is everywhere at the same time is not going to happen. I suggest that is where we all just need to shut up, realize that our puny ideas are simply manifestations of our self love, pride, and inflated opinion of ourselves. There are things that are too difficult for me. I hope everyone could say that with conviction.
> Did he create evil? Not a chance.
Would you choose to give birth (or have a hand in the birth) to a child you knew would become a serial killer?
> I suggest that is where we all just need to shut up, realize that our puny ideas are simply manifestations of our self love, pride, and inflated opinion of ourselves.
I agree, there are things that we simply don’t know and can’t understand. That means we shouldn’t act like we know that a God exists or not when we have no evidence for it.
God is Good, God is Bad! it all depends on the your perspective you are looking at Him, as He is Our Creator who takes care of us… but if we live a life worthy of His love, then He is Good God, or If YOU live bad life, then He is Bad God?
He has given us enough brain to judge and live a life which is worthy, but if are adamant, to live a life like Adam and Eve, it is our decision to live that way, then we and our Children, sometimes even our grand children has reap for what we have sown, then blaming God will be the only option!
This was my first question as a 2-times per week kid raised in the Church, to be followed by many more. I later thought, well, if it happened with Lucifer, why could it not happen again?
As a pediatric epidemiologist the thought of a “loving God” is just impossible.
Hi every body..
I found some beautiful answers from the web to your excellent question..no we muslims do NOT believe in the fallen angel concept..
the devil or shayton is not an angel, never was one..
we muslims believe God,Allah created 3 types of beings
angels who are make of light and only obey Allahs commands, they do not have free will of choice, they are the work force of God, doing all his handiwork, like sending messages to prophets, delivering souls, taking souls to heaven or hell, recording our deeds, etc
then there are us humans, created of clay or organic matter.. we have free will of choice and can choose to do good or bad..
lastly there are jinns, they are created of a smokeless fire.. they are unseen by us humans, but they can see us.. they live in families like we humans do.. they also have free will of choice and can choose to go good or bad..
the devil was one of the jinn folk, and he was arrogant and refused to honor Gods’creation of man, ie: Adam,so God punished him and banished him to hell.. devil swore to take as many to hell as he would..
I think God allowed the devil to remain (he certainly could have just killed him then and there) but allowed him to remain as a test for us humans to deserve the right to gain a spot in heaven.. are we worthy?
Another answer..
Salam Based on the Qur’an,Allah created Adam from soil,angels from light,jinns/satans/devils/iblises from very hot fire and animal from water. Angels have no lusts so they always do good deeds as instructed by Allah,while devils have lusts so they can do bad deeds and good deeds but they could be seen. Jinns who always make good deeds are called Muslim jinns while jinns who make bad deeds are called satans or devils They are very arrogant.They always try to tempt and bring humans into wrong doings People who have weak faith will be easily tempted by devils. If we go to hajj pilgrimage in MIna we must throw small stones for making go away all satans or devils.
A Third answer..
When Allah created man He also created angels and jinn before man. Allah said that man (Adam) was His greatest creation; and He told the angels and jinn to bow to Adam. One jinn, Shayton, (i.e, Satan) refused to bow before man. Allah in this jinns arrogance banished Satan to Hell. Satan pleaded with Allah to make him (satan) immortal until the Day of Judgement. Shayton is not all powerful like Allah. Shayton is a trickster jinn, trying to trick man into following him. Those who deny Allah, and atheists will be dragged to Hell on the Day of Judgment. Those who obey Allah will enter paradise. But unlike the Christian Hell, Islamic Hell is not eternal. It is a place for purification. Those who go to Hell can repent and plead with Allah; those who are sincere will enter paradise. Satan is the only one in Hell for eternity.
With all my greetings and compliments..Thank U very much ..God bless U..
Dear Anonymous,
ACCORDING TO ME, Jesus has very clearly explained, in Matthew 22:30-32, we are judged according to the life we live on this earth only! We don’t have a SECOND CHANCE!
He also said this in Luke 16:10-11, , if we are not able to be found worthy, when we live in this earthly pleasure filled World, then how will GOD find worthiness in us to live in the RICHES of Heaven?
What we now experiencing is the trailer of full life, THAT we will be living with our CREATOR!
Hi,
I like the reasoning of James MacDonald in one of his series on suffering, and why God allows it (i have been searching quite hard for answers since my diagnosis with stage iv cancer btw, and yes, I am a stronger Christian now than ever)
Anyhow, the reasoning touches on something 500questions brings up here, that there are certain things God can’t do like:
-Make a married bachelor
-Make a round quare
-Make a rock so big that He can’t lift it, etc (logical issues)
-God can’t lie
-God can’t learn something, etc(character issues)
So, I’m sure I could go on, but along those lines, MacDonald argues that God can’t make a universe in which everyone was free to ‘choose God’, and at the same time, guarantee that all in that universe would indeed ‘choose God’. For sake of argument, I would like to lump angels and people together as created beings, who cares who made the decision to ‘not follow God’, for if it wasn’t Satan, it could have been any ‘one’ with free will. And yes, it appears angels did have free will at some point.
So, to add to this line of reasoning, I like to use the following scenario:
-You are in God’s position(i.e. you know the future perfectly)
-You can not control the subjects minds or decisions in this experiment(i.e. they have free will)
-Your intentions, good or bad, don’t have anything to do with this(you will see I think)
So you have an experiment in which you have a known number of individuals who exhibit free will, say 10. You also know at the end of the experiment what they are going to choose to order from a fast food stand, either a hot dog, or a hamburger. So, you as God, don’t like people that eat hot dogs (I guess they aren’t Kosher or whatever), so you don’t allow those individuals to exist. I mean, it’s not like you kill them when they make the choice to order a hot dog, you know the future perfectly before this experiment even runs. So, you just don’t include those individuals in the experiment.
Here’s the problem, from the point that as soon as someone makes the decision to order a hot dog logically, they cease to exist, such that only hamburger orderers exist in this society.
How is that free will? It isn’t. Because basically there is no difference between not creating those individuals on the foreknowledge that they were going to order a hot dog, and plucking them out of the sample space at the time they do order a hot dog, they never make it to the end of the experiment!
So with this view, I think: did God create Satan? Yes. Did God know what Satan was going to do? Absolutely. Did God LIKE it? Most likely NOT. Does God allow sin, death, suffering, injustice, evil, etc? Well, obviously… Why do I have cancer? Why does my 2 year old precious daughter have to grow up without me? Why am I suffering? These are all questions that I am struggling with. But to say that God doesn’t exist, or to say that He’s not all good and won’t make all of this right in the end, I can’t accept that… (if you want to hear the stories of what I consider to he God’s hand in my suffering, I can expound on that anytime! Needless to say, if one person doesn’t spend eternity in hell because I have a little discomfort for 5 milliseconds, that’s fine by me! God knows what He’s doing, I don’t have a clue)
Thanks!
Ryan
Dear Ryan, Our prayers are with you!
When God has given the, FREE WILL to choose between God and satisfying OUR SENSES, We as usual choose to satisfy our senses and never, in the midst of enjoyment we have ever questioned GOD, why are you allowing me to enjoy? HAVE WE EVER DONE, THIS? but ever for a small hurt we ask GOD, WHERE WERE YOU?
God can do,
-Make a married bachelor, I AM ONE OF THOSE LUCKY PERSON
-Make a round square, IT IS OUR PERCEPTION
-Make a rock so big that He can’t lift it, etc (logical issues)THERE IS NOTHING BIG OR SMALL FOR GOD, As HE is beyond, space and time.
-God can’t lie, HE IS NOT HUMAN!
-God can’t learn something, etc(character issues) EVERYTHING IS FROM HIM, does not need learning.
You have touched upon the basic of ALL, (God can’t make a universe in which everyone was free to ‘choose God’, and at the same time, guarantee that all in that universe would indeed ‘choose God’.)
As this was the reason, for giving us the free will! How many of us are able to,
CONTROL OUR SENSES AND WORSHIP ONLY GOD?!
It started with Adam and Eve and still continuing till date, WE ARE NOT ABLE TO CONTROL OUR SENSES!
DID GOD CREATE SATAN? YES, we are the living Satan, (In six days of creation God never created Satan, anyway)
Experiment :-
You also know at the end of the experiment what they are going to choose to order from a fast food stand, either a hot dog(God’s WILL), or a hamburger.(Human’s WILL).
If God starts Killing, then only few will be left, and as Jesus said, HE allows the weed also to grow, as the GOOD wheat MAYBE affected when HE PULLS OUT THE WEED!
If GOD, keeps only good then, THERE ARE ALREADY ANGELS, in heaven and this earth is the testing ground for getting selected to be in HEAVEN, for eternity!
We choose to go to a pros, while we know that, WE WILL GET AIDS! for a few minutes of pleasure we are ready to suffer life long? but later blame God, WHY DOES HE ALLOW SUFFERING?
HOW MANY OF US PRAY SINCERELY, AND ALLOW GOD TO TAKE DECISIONS, ON OUR BEHALF?
If we do this, then we can ASK GOD,!
How do you allow ME to suffer, WHEN I HAVE HANDED OVER MY ENTIRE LIFE TO YOU!
Is this possible or,
PRESENTLY, I WANT TO SATISFY MY SENSES ONLY! AND LATER… SUFFER!
Not sure I follow your reasoning? You are married acting like a bachelor? In that case, I understand the rest of your post in that you are suffering for your decisions… Otherwise, no, you can’t have something be true and not true in the same sense, at the same time. God can’t even do this (in this universe with this universe’s laws), that’s a logical contradiction. You are either married, or you’re not.
I was married, now a divorcee, hope you can understand the struggle, I will be undergoing?
Either to satisfy my senses or control my senses for GOD, only!
Presently I am still coping up with the world, as I was declared dead by the Top doctors, after my accident, with my heart stopping for 7 long minutes, medically impossible as there was no oxygen supply to my entire body, skull broken into pieces,
Had a stroke, with double vision till today, worst of All, I was diagnosed as,
Anterograde amnesia, which wife will take care of such vegetable body (four years back).
God is testing me! like anyone else. Maybe if I pass the test, He may assign me a job which is worthwhile, as…
How do you know God exists? It’s easy to say God knows what He’s doing, so I don’t have to think about it.
Are you ALIVE? Obviously ANSWER is Yes, Then God exists!
Or,
How is my God, made pump working for your life time? or…
My God, made lungs are exchanging gases? or…
My God, made Ears can hear sound? or…
My God, made Tongue can taste? or…
Do you think, all these are happening by itself or it is, BY GRACE OF OUR CREATOR!
Whom we call GOD! I don’t know how you call your CREATOR?
How do you know for sure God doesn’t exist? It’s also easy to say that He doesn’t exist so that you don’t have any moral accountability. Technically, ‘If God doesn’t exist, then everything is permissible’
And to answer your question, I’m pretty sure He exists due to the overwhelming evidence that creation (read humanistically, ‘Nature’) provides. Rom 1:20 ‘For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse’
So, if God doesn’t exist, how do you explain everything that is so ordered and structured so as to be mathematically impossible to be completely random? Anything but the current naturalistic theory, please… aliens? Some other life form? A hidden guiding force? If that, then why not call it God?
Just sayin’….
Ryan
I don’t know for sure God doesn’t exist and never claimed to. There is an inbetween. You shouldn’t be afraid to say, “I don’t know.” Don’t believe anything without evidence on both sides of an issue.
> It’s also easy to say that He doesn’t exist so that you don’t have any moral accountability. Technically, ‘If God doesn’t exist, then everything is permissible’
This has been discussed on this website and many others across the web. “If atheists are the only people without the understanding of how to be good, shouldn’t the entire prison population be atheist?” As someone else said, “You don’t need religion to have morals. If you can’t determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy, not religion.”
And like Steven Weinberg said, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
“I think a strong case can be made for behaving morally based on logic and empathy alone. While you COULD lie, cheat, and steal to get what you want, you certainly wouldn’t want someone doing this to you. If God doesn’t punish you, society will (or your own brain will condemn you).”
It has been shown that even toddlers have an innate sense of justice and morality. This makes sense because if humans were innately dangerous to each other we wouldn’t exist. This is natural selection. Other animals have morality and a sense of justice also. This helps them and their “pack” or group survive and pass on their genes. Moral accountability comes from our instincts to survive, not from God.
> And to answer your question, I’m pretty sure He exists due to the overwhelming evidence that creation (read humanistically, ‘Nature’) provides.
If the universe wasn’t this way, we wouldn’t exist. So it had to be this way.
Douglas Adams once said:
“imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact, it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'”
Mathematician Michael Ikeda and astronomer William H. Jefferys have argued that the anthropic principle and selection effect are not properly taken into account in the fine tuning argument for a designer, and that in taking them into account, fine tuning does not support the designer hypothesis. Philosopher of science Elliott Sober makes a similar argument.
Physicist Robert L. Park said:
“If the universe was designed for life, it must be said that it is a shockingly inefficient design. There are vast reaches of the universe in which life as we know it is clearly impossible: gravitational forces would be crushing, or radiation levels are too high for complex molecules to exist, or temperatures would make the formation of stable chemical bonds impossible… Fine-tuned for life? It would make more sense to ask why God designed a universe so inhospitable to life.”
> So, if God doesn’t exist, how do you explain everything that is so ordered and structured so as to be mathematically impossible to be completely random?
It is not mathematically impossible. Where did you get this idea from? If someone were to prove that this universe is “mathematically impossible”, they’d get a Nobel Prize at the very least and it would single-handedly close the case on this issue like that.
Additional source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:Why_the_“fine-tuned_universe”_argument_is_bogus
> Anything but the current naturalistic theory, please… aliens? Some other life form? A hidden guiding force?
Even if you want to assume a creator, who created the creator? Isn’t it easier to believe a very very very small and simple thing came into existence by itself and became complex rather than an extremely complex thing such as a diety popped into existence by itself and just decided they wanted to create something less complex?
If all of the above is not enough and you still want to assume a creator has to exist, that still doesn’t mean God exists, that means the Abrahamic God, or to you specifically, the Christian God. Just become a deist like America’s Founding Fathers.
> If that, then why not call it God?
Because we shouldn’t assume that it’s the Abrahamic God even if there was evidence for a creator (which there isn’t).
I was directed to your blog and i can tell I’m going to love it. I’ll admit, I didn’t read all of the comments, I will come back later and do that.
This is the main seed of doubt with my De-conversion. Adam and Eve sinned because Satan tempted them… And that’s why we sin. So why did Lucifer rebel/sin against God? How could he? Lucifer was created perfect. He was in the presence of God. He had no “Satan” to tempt him… So how did Lucifer sin? How could he?
Then, why do we need sin and evil? I’m always told for free will, God doesn’t want robots. So we have to have murder and child rape so I can have free will?? I would give up my free will if that meant all evil was gone! Then I’m told, we don’t know God’s ways, He sees the bigger picture.
Also, if I knew there was a woman being tortured in the house next to me, I would risk my life to save her. I would do everything I could! God sees all of the horrible things going on right at this moment and does Nothing!!!! How can He not kill the evil doers on the spot? Imagine Isis having all those Christians lined up the behead them…. Then BAM on a chariot God comes out of the sky and kills every Isis member and frees the Christians. Think about how many people would believe in God. But no, He allows them to be beheaded, the child to be murdered, the woman to be raped…. All this for His Glory????
So, here is my journey…. Yes I’ll be reading every one of your questions lol
Hi secretsally70,
Lots off great questions. Who tempted Satan? If Satan didn’t need a tempter, why did we? If Satan wasn’t exposed to evil, yet still had free will, why do we need evil to have free will? It just doesn’t make a whole lotta sense.
It would be nice to see God intervene. People will say, “Oh no, he can’t! That would cause us to believe in him if we saw him, and ruin the whole effect!” But again, if Satan can reject God in his very presence, I don’t see any reason why we couldn’t choose to do likewise.
Take care,
500Q
Another thing I hate is how people say it was “God’s will” when something good happens, or it was all thanks to God. From winning a sporting event to the recent woman who found the Charleston Church Massacre suspect, it was all “thanks to God”. So God favored your team over the losing team? God was more focused on his favorite team winning rather than ISIS beheading Christians? Even more upsetting is God helping to find the suspect of the massacre BUT NOT PREVENTING THE MASSACRE ITSELF. I honestly don’t understand how people believe this. They can’t realize how stupid that sounds? They just repeat what they hear without thinking about it at all? I absolutely understand how people can believe in religion, but some things you can reason out yourself which can’t be true.
>> Adam and Eve sinned because Satan tempted them… And that’s why we sin. So why did Lucifer rebel/sin against God? How could he? Lucifer was created perfect. He was in the presence of God. He had no “Satan” to tempt him… So how did Lucifer sin? How could he?
Because there is no “devil” in the bible. Many historians believe the Satan construct was a later addition, due to the Zoroastrian influence of a need to balance good with evil.
The word “Satan” comes from an oft-used term “ha-satan” which means “the adversary” or, more colloquially, “he who is opposed” and, at least in the Old Testament, never seems to target any specific personage. The main villains of the Old Testament are the gods of the Canaanites, and any enemies of Israel / Judea.
As far as I’m aware, there’s no evidence of Old Testament era belief in an “enemy” of God. And to my knowledge, current Judaism only accepts Satan as something created by God to test man’s commitment to the Law by hindering him from obeying it easily.
In the prologue to Job, Satan is one of the sons of God who shows up to present themselves to the Lord.
God is not upset to see his nemesis show up to his party, and just asks him where he’s been. Kind of odd response to the source of all evil crashing your party.
The footnotes in the Oxford edition of the NRSV bible (widely held as the academic standard text) indicates:
>> The gathering of the divine council in heaven includes “the Satan,” i.e., “the adversary” of job and other humans, not of God; he is not the “devil” of later Jewish and Christian literature (see textual note b [the Accuser; Heb ha-satan). Here he acts as God’s eyes and ears on earth. He questions whether Job’s righteousness is for its own sake or for the sake of its reward.
It’s kind of like how the guy trying to put someone in jail is the prosecutor, Satan is the Accuser.
Also it’s a story where a supposedly omniscient being has to ask where Satan has been, so maybe it’s not meant to be taken seriously.
On my FB, someone’s child was really sick and the doctors couldn’t figure out why. She was sent to a specialist….finally (the whole process took 3 weeks) that doctor figured out what it was and the medication needed. Everyone was giving God the glory and saying God answered their prayers. And i wanted say, ummm, she didn’t heal on her own, the doctor did that!
We avoided a car wreck and my husband said, God protected us, I’m thinking, or you did a great job driving when that semi ran us off the road. If my husband had done nothing, we would be dead! So I get what you’re saying.
Hi sally, very nice question. I think the most obvious question to ask is: if he could not sin, how can we then say he had free will? It is however dumbfounding that a mere angel could think in their heart that they can transcend and overthrow God with all their wisdom. The Bible says this happened because he thought in himself he could be like God, he took pride in the great beauty and splendor that was bestowed by God upon him and caused other angels to also revolt against God.
The second and interesting part of your question touches the issue of the devil being the ‘god of this world’ according to the Bible. The open secret I see is that the devil has challenged God that we as humans will choose evil over good. This can be seen in several cases where he’s referred to as: the ‘accuser of the brethren’. The pending question of course is: why condone all this injustice and iniquities for such a long time? As humans we find this very difficult to fathom and I think it may be an issue of how we experience time. I remember a ‘funny’ and cynical verse in the Bible where the demons said, ‘have you come here to torture us before the appointed time’. It’s a very strange acknowledgment about knowing that their time is ‘short’ and also a bit strange that God granted their request which ended up killing swines owned by a human. I think it reflects the case we’re debating, God is just and has given the devil some time to prove his point, in that time, we only have like ~100 years to make our ‘say’, which funny enough many of us think is so short — even though Christ himself passed away very young and yet can be referred to as the most achieved.
Finally, I’d like to leave you with this quote from Fernando Pessoa: “A sensitive and honest-minded man, if he’s concerned about evil and injustice in the world, will naturally begin his campaign against them by eliminating them at their nearest source: his own person. This task will take his entire life.”
So God has given the devil free range to torture humans so God can prove a point? Does that sound like a living God?
It’s like I made a bet with someone on how much my children love me. So I tell that person, do whatever you want to my children, you will see, they will love me no matter what. What kind of mother would you think I am? I would lose custody of my children and be put into jail.
God shouldn’t need to prove anything if He’s God!
Not proving, judgment. And a just one. Secondly, the devil doesn’t torture us! We torture ourselves, and in that process, most importantly, learn. The quote from Fernando is to say that, taming ourselves to always choose good when faced with freewill or choice of good and bad is usually a journey that takes a lifetime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kelly_Anne_Bates#cite_note-russell-7
On 17 April 1996 Smith presented at a police station and said that he had accidentally killed his girlfriend during an argument in the bath, claiming that she had inhaled bathwater and died despite his attempts to resuscitate her. Police attended Smith’s address and found Bates’ naked body in a bedroom. Bates’ blood was found in every room of the house, and a post-mortem examination revealed over 150 separate injuries on her body. During the last month of her life she had been kept bound in the house, sometimes tied by her hair to radiators or chairs, and at other times with a ligature around her neck.[1][2] William Lawler, the Home Office pathologist who examined her body, said: “In my career, I have examined almost 600 victims of homicide but I have never come across injuries so extensive.”[3] The injuries included:[1][2][3]
scalding to her buttocks and left leg;
burns on her thigh caused by the application of a hot iron;
a fractured arm;
multiple stab wounds caused by knives, forks and scissors;
stab wounds inside her mouth;
crush injuries to both hands;
mutilation of her ears, nose, eyebrows, mouth, lips and genitalia;
wounds caused by a spade and pruning shears;
both eyes gouged out;
later stab wounds to the empty eye sockets;
partial scalping.
The pathologist determined that her eyes had been removed “not less than five days and not more than three weeks before her death”.[3] She had been starved, losing around 20 kg in weight, and had not received water for several days before her death. Peter Openshaw, the prosecutor in Smith’s trial, said: “It was as if he deliberately disfigured her, causing her the utmost pain, distress and degradation … The injuries were not the result of one sudden eruption of violence, they must have been caused over a long period [and] were so extensive and so terrible that the defendant must have deliberately and systematically tortured the girl.”[1] The cause of death was drowning, immediately prior to which she had been beaten about the head with a shower head.[3] Openshaw said: “Her death must have been a merciful end to her torment”.[7]
I copied this from another blog. You and I know that this sort of depravity is happening everywhere, I do not agree that this woman was torturing herself or learned anything good. And is this a fair judgement because Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit? Doesn’t the penalty seem a little steep?
I don’t seem to get your point. A sick dude kills his girlfriend maniacally and you say she killed herself? If you’re however trying to present a case of unfair deaths — when we can fairly conclude there has not been enough time for ‘learning’, that’s quite a different and blurry topic as it deals with the pre- and afterlife.
No she didn’t kill herself, he murdered her after torturing her. My point is that these bad things happen because God allows Satan to run free on earth, you said God gave Satan free reign to prove a point. Then you said Satan doesn’t torture us, we torture ourselves. Maybe I’m not understanding the point you were making.
My point is that God doesn’t need to prove any point. The creation of Satan didn’t need to happen. God knows who will choose Him, why have all of the torture and pain we have on earth just so we can have free will? He should have just made heaven and had those that He knew would choose Him go straight there.
I will repeat again that I did not say God was trying to prove a point, but that Satan is merely experiencing judgment for the evil he did; which we have been unfortunately caught up in. But at the same time, this is helping us become people who can value and use free will properly and meritorious of heaven. Think about this like you’re the one. You know what you need to do to create a perfect world. Looking into every god-being you create to see if they’ll abuse freewill and kill/cut them surely sounds dirty or what’s the point of the free will in the first instance? But by being fair and just, perfect balance can be achieved, and that’s what I believe matters in the end.
The devil may be able to hurt us in our flesh form through his minions (not of course if you’ve directly asked God for protection), but we’re the only ones who can hurt our spirits. The ‘torture’ and ‘pain’ we experience here from humans like ourselves (not that we’re necessarily better than them) at any length helps us learn. Without pain, it’s hard to distinguish between what’s good and bad for you. Even as a human, you may choose to eliminate your pain receptors, but who would want to do that? A child who doesn’t know that fire is bad for their skin cells may as well sit in the fire till they die. A child’s world however is beautiful, not because they cannot feel pain, but because they’re surrounded by loving people. Let’s not be quick to forget we have limited time here, and the best we can do is to use that time well in understanding why and what it means to becoming a better person (the same reason I’m here); and act as to become one, fit for a world of perfect love and beauty. Thanks very much as my learning also increases from this.
You say “we’ve just been unfortunately caught up in it” like its some natural disaster no one could have prevented, but we are talking about God here. There are no rules he has to go by. Suffering by that poor girl didn’t have to happen. God allowed it to happen. There are other ways to do what you are proposing that doesn’t include innocent suffering.
Heck, even though I believe it is possible to have free will and not have innocent people suffer (just as it supposedly is in Heaven), I would STILL rather choose to not have free will if it means people don’t suffer. It’s awful and sick, and I’m not sure you are putting yourself in their shoes when you can just shoo away this moral problem so carelessly. All of us have loved ones. Imagine your loved one going through the torture she went through and honestly ask yourself, would you rather they go through that or they be “robots” without free will? As the article says, death is better than being tortured like that. So even if you don’t have free will, hey, at least you are still alive. It is so obviously better than suffering like that.
The argument that we need to have evil because otherwise we would not have free will is completely idiotic, it’s like saying in order to produce this jumbo jet that can travel the world in 10 seconds flat, we would need to pollute the Earth so much it makes the Earth uninhabitable. Obviously protecting the Earth so that it doesn’t become uninhabitable is more important than making televisions. Preventing innocent suffering is definitely more important than having free will, and you would agree if you were the one suffering.
Next, you say we need to go through this in order to “learn” something. First of all, not everyone has the same experience in life, so how could you say for sure that they are “learning” what they are supposed to? Babies die. What did they learn in the few seconds they were alive? Unless you support reincarnation…. Second of all, like I said in a prior comment, “experience” can be experienced without suffering. We as humans will have the technology for it soon enough, there’s no reason God would not be able to.
When someone does something wrong, they get punished, even in our society that should be “less perfect” than God’s. What’s “dirty” about that? We don’t let them roam around allowed to do evil things and hurting other people. You could say we are limiting their freedom. Of course. It’s better that way. You are essentially saying, “what’s the point of free will if I can’t hurt other people?!?!?” That’s ridiculous. Your theology is that justice will be served…eventually. When evildoers die, they get sent to hell, or otherwise get what they deserve, well the same can be said, what’s the point of free will? I obviously can’t be evil if I want to live, so what’s the point? That’s not free will. Only in your version of justice, the evildoer is not punished right away, but is allowed to continue hurting other people. That’s even worse! Not only does your argument about free will still apply, but it allows evil to happen for no good reason!
Moving on, you talk about demonic attacks. There’s no scientific proof of this. 1 million dollars is being offered to anyone that can scientifically prove any supernatural event, such as being demon possessed, being able to summon demons, or talk to spirits. If this were anywhere near as common as people make it out to be, someone would have taken up that offer to become a millionaire. Heck, if we could study these demon attacks and see if “asking for God’s protection” helps any, it would be great for science and would provide good evidence for God. It would be so easy! If only it were true. If you care to research schizophrenia and other such mental illnesses, you would see why the writers of the Bible and other ancient writers thought of these people as demon or spirit possessed. In fact, manic people were in all ancient civilizations and each society came up with their own explanation for what was going on.
We need our pain receptors on earth because yes, how will a child learn “hot” or other things that need to be avoided. But in a sin free world this would not be needed. No pain or torture would ever be needed.
And why do we need to be caught up in God’s judgement on Satan? Satan was the one that rebelled (I still do not know how he was able to come up with this plan considering he was a perfect creation and lived with God and no evil had been created because God can not create evil) This is between God and Satan. God should have made sure that His people were protected from Satan. Just as a parent protects their children from the creeper that lives in their neighborhood, God should have done the same to His children.
From what I see generally, your belief is that even if God were creating a sin-free world of love and beauty; with eternal beings/gods with freewill, He’s not going the right way about it. Which is fine and based on our limited understanding of how things work. Secondly, it seems the bulk of this argument reduces to the meaning and essence of freewill. One may ask for example, why protect the angels when they can obviously fight for themselves and had cast the devil and his followers down in the first place. These are all questions I think that if one is sincere and seeking for understanding, they’ll reflect on in their quiet time. My take is that anyone who asks in humility and faith, for such a noble gift like understanding will receive it.
I personally have no more questions; the search that led me here started with the possibility of Satan’s repentance, and I ended up answering so much questions for myself. And the site: https://bible.org/seriespage/3-satan-s-part-god-s-perfect-plan proved particularly helpful in this regards as well. If you’d also like to continue this discussion privately, I’d be happy to. My fb profile is: https://www.facebook.com/patacee
Cheeers
Why would we have a problem with God creating a sin-free world? The problem we have is that he didn’t, and he allows suffering to continue with no evidence he even exists. You could say we just have “limited knowledge”, but we just have the knowledge God gave us. Maybe he should have gave us better reasoning capabilities if he wanted us to believe in him. If God ever gives you the answer, please be sure to let us know, but it’s pretty obvious to me.
@Garbonzo, you do know about the story of the two twins in the womb? I think most of us are guilty of a paradoxical ideal God; a God who cannot have any problems because He’s ‘perfect’. We turn ourselves into a ‘fantasy’ God, define perfection, then subject God to our definition to see if He fits. This is why I like agnostics.
I have never heard of that story, as it is obviously for preachy religious people. I found it here: https://philipchircop.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/twins-in-the-womb/
The story doesn’t make any point or add anything to the argument. Have you heard of the story of the puddle by Douglas Adams? Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, “This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!” This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.
That puddle could use your twin story to try and prove that the hole was made for him, just as the womb was made for the twins, but that doesn’t make it true. Just because there is something outside another thing (the world outside of the womb), doesn’t make it true for all things. (something outside of the universe). After all, we (individual humans such as you and I) came from something, but yet God supposedly came from nothing. Where is God’s mother?
Some God ideas are inherently paradoxical: http://www.godfallacies.com/
Perfection has a widely used definition, and that’s the definition we go by. If you have your own definition, feel free to tell us so that we can talk about it. But you have to have a definition, otherwise you are simply moving the goal posts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Similar to how creationists debate evolution. We can’t debate if they don’t have a definition of what evolution is. Whenever we prove a definition, they change the definition. You can’t debate that way.
I am an agnostic atheist. That doesn’t mean we don’t use definitions for words.
Ah, you seem to have missed all the points. The story on its own is more of an illustrative example to show that you can’t enforce a condition and demand for something the condition invalidates. e.g. the twins can’t demand for their mother to appear in the womb, they’d have to get born first and it takes just 9 months.
Yes, and you missed the point also. Just because that’s the case in one scenario doesn’t make it so in another. If the mother had the power of God, she surely could have shown she existed. Plus, in the story, there was evidence of the mother due to the squeezes. We don’t have that for God.
“If the mother had the power of ‘God’, she surely could have shown she existed. Plus there are no unexplainable occurrences in the universe”. Very insightful. Thanks.
I didn’t say there are no unexplainable occurances in the universe. I said there is nothing similiar to a pregnancy. Put it this way: if we (the universe) were in a womb and a big turtle was about to give birth to us, we would know.
Even so, a mother is not comparable to a god.
What did Jesus achieve that Joseph Smith did not? They both founded religions and had their own hardships and died at the hands of their enemies. I wouldn’t call Jesus the greatest achiever based on the facts we have.
Anyway, can Jesus sin? Even now? Most would say no, otherwise the foundation of Christianity is threatened. So if Jesus cannot sin but yet has free will, we can be like that also.
Adam and Satan obviously did not have perfect intellect. Even we can see how stupid their actions were. It had nothing to do with free will, and everything to do with intelligence. I am free to rob a bank right now, but I would be stupid to do so because I would ruin my life. No one that is intelligent robs a bank or otherwise deliberately ruins their life. Even with robbing a bank, if you can pull it off and get away with it, there is high reward, so there is a risk/reward relationship there where if you are desperate or think there is a high chance at reward, an intelligent person may rob a bank, but in the Adam and Satan scenarios, there is no reward, it will always simply ruin your life. No intelligent creature would make those decisions. Would you?
And again, there is no “devil” in the Old Testament. Many historians believe the Satan construct was a later addition, due to the Zoroastrian influence of a need to balance good with evil.
The word “Satan” comes from an oft-used term “ha-satan” which means “the adversary” or, more colloquially, “he who is opposed” and, at least in the Old Testament, never seems to target any specific personage. The main villains of the Old Testament are the gods of the Canaanites, and any enemies of Israel / Judea.
As far as I’m aware, there’s no evidence of Old Testament era belief in an “enemy” of God. And to my knowledge, current Judaism only accepts Satan as something created by God to test man’s commitment to the Law by hindering him from obeying it easily.
In the prologue to Job, Satan is one of the sons of God who shows up to present themselves to the Lord.
God is not upset to see his nemesis show up to his party, and just asks him where he’s been. Kind of odd response to the source of all evil crashing your party.
The footnotes in the Oxford edition of the NRSV bible (widely held as the academic standard text) indicates:
>> The gathering of the divine council in heaven includes “the Satan,” i.e., “the adversary” of job and other humans, not of God; he is not the “devil” of later Jewish and Christian literature (see textual note b [the Accuser; Heb ha-satan). Here he acts as God’s eyes and ears on earth. He questions whether Job’s righteousness is for its own sake or for the sake of its reward.
It’s kind of like how the guy trying to put someone in jail is the prosecutor, Satan is the Accuser.
Also it’s a story where a supposedly omniscient being has to ask where Satan has been, so maybe it’s not meant to be taken seriously.
The strongest excuse I heard is when God does evil it is not evil, it is only evil when we do it. Everything apply to human doesn’t apply to God, We human are too arrogant to try to compare ourselves to God. God can kill, but that’s not evil. Human kills, that’s evil. The definition of Evil is something done by human or angel, not God. God can judge human, human can not judge God.
Basically God can do whatever he likes, and that’s all good, and evil is something defined for human. God treats human all equal and use the same rules but those rules are only for human not for God.
I had no word to argue against above because I think it is is somehow logically though means nothing to me.
Hi Tan Hao,
Defining “evil” can be difficult. Are “good” and “evil” defined outside of God? And God submits to these natural definitions? Or are good and evil whatever God says they are? (As many Christians suggest.)
For practical purposes, we need to have some kind of working definition of evil in order to hold a conversation. Personally, I would define “evil” as any pain or suffering that is inflicted without a corresponding purpose. Predation, for example, appears to be an evil that exists that doesn’t serve any great purpose. God COULD have designed all animals to be herbivores (or allowed them to REMAIN herbivores after the fall). Not going with the less painful alternative suggests that the creator is evil, at least by that definition.
But many Christians would insist that good is whatever God says it is. So if the Bible says, “Beating a child’s head against a rock is good,” (Psalm 137:9) then it is! This gets Christians out of having to defend all of God’s evil behavior, and makes it difficult to reason with them. You might try asking them, “If you made it to heaven, but your child went to hell, would you be okay with this? Imagine you could actually see your child writhing in pain, day after day, for all eternity without relief; could you still turn to God and say, ‘Yes God! Relentlessly torturing my child is GOOD! It is GOOD because you say it is good! Thank you for allowing him/her to continue to be tortured in this way.”
It just blows my mind the atrocities we can and do justify in the name of God.
500Q
I don’t know how to leave a general comment on this blog, but I think the blog can be more readable with a better comments plugin, maybe something like: https://wordpress.org/plugins/epoch/screenshots/
The Index or the About Me page are fine for more general comments. But yes, I’m not too happy with how this WordPress layout gets narrow when there are too many replies. I’ll see what I can do.
Just found your reply to Garbonzo:
“My underling assumption is that if something is perfectly good, it can never do any evil, or create anything that might result in evil. Once it does, it can no longer qualify as “perfectly” good. That’s the problem with absolutes. The only exception would be if the creation never did any evil.”
I think something I’ve picked from you but have not had the opportunity to respond to is a misunderstanding of the meaning of ‘evil’. First, ANYTHING can be used to do evil. Good and Evil are effects of ‘choice’. You can use a laptop to smith a child’s head (God forbid) or use it to do something useful. It doesn’t even mean or imply in any way that the person who made it; made it for that purpose. Second, the problem with evil (people making choices that affect other negatively/cause pain to them) is that a just God needs to be fair in judgment. In fact one of the most funny and even ironic paradoxes with evil is that it’s not sustainable. There must be some good to maintain stability — imagine a den of unrepentant thieves who can’t stand not pick-pocketing each other and beating each other up all the time. Therefore, I don’t see why someone who willingly chooses evil, shouldn’t cherish the suffering for their evil.
To add, The Creator never did any evil, but the creatures did, from beginning it was not the snake who was evil, in Eden but desirous Eve, until now it is our desire, and not able to CONTROL their SENSES! which is reason for all Evil.
There is no Satan, As the creator never created, It was only Humans.
Satan was an angel named Lucifer who became consumed with jealously and therefore he was casted out of heaven (in laymen terms)
This whole God and devil chess game, shows clearly how the passage of time can make a badly told lie seem so powerful . Just like kids find it difficult to let go of the idea that Santa clause never actually existed . Christian adult haven’t handle biblical misrepresentation well either as they go all length with diverse theories ,in a desperate attempt to sheepishly hold on to the blatant lies taught to them by their primitive ancestors. Several bible scholars acknowledge additions , interpolations and deductions found in the bible .It is about time Christians woke up to the harsh realities that this whole God thing is a lost cause. Embrace your mortality and channel all that energy into positively impacting life, besides other living species are not complaining.
I went to church for a while then i stopped, being so lonely & feeling unwanted i didn’t think any of it was real anymore never had any spiritual visions or dreams… Then i became the son of perdition lucky me, right? The only thing i shouldn’t have become and i did. I was taken advantage of being pretty drunk one night and didn’t even remember what happened until just recently still don’t fully comprehend what went down but bits and pieces of that night remind me of a terrible fate. I saw my judgement in my spirit in my chest weird i know but it’s real and apparently God needed me to bring about the end times, just seems like he wanted it this way to me though i know He hates me, seems if He didn’t want to bring judgement and ruin to sinners He would have thrown satan in the lake of fire long ago. Funny how that worked out… Being predestined for something so terrible, that’s even my name right there in the bible and everything… Hopefully i can shake this but don’t count on it. I never wanted anything like this. God has no problem throwing anyone into the lake of fire for all eternity, but at the same time if you love, trust & seek Him with all your heart He’ll lead you into all truth. Life is a test and there’s only one chance considering reincarnation or annihilation probably seem way more logical, unfortunately for most things don’t work that way. It’s the little things we don’t realize are so great… Grass fresh air love food friends the kind and most simplest gestures, those small things that’ll be missed so much. It might seem like life is pointless and terrible but i don’t even have good feelings or any kind of comfort anymore I wish i could go back and do it all over. I think the tribulation is gonna start in the next couple years so just get right before it’s too late. I’m sorry this happened and i never would but i think I’m supposed to die then be overcome with the spirit of satan… Don’t take any kind of injection microchip etc or worship any man no matter how spiritually amazing or powerful they might seem once it’s implemented there’s only three years until earth ends anyways. You DO have an eternal soul and nothing is worth immortal peace. I’m still trying to shake the thought that i was made just for this. My personality my circumstance everything that played a part in this it just seems so unreal it could ever happen. I’m not prepared to spend eternity in the lake of fire no one is and nobody should have to go there. Most of you will take heed from this message others will laugh but I’ve seen judgement and hell & there’s nothing you want to have to do with either of them! Blessings and peace
as soon as i state that i simply can’t believe in a vengeful god – i weep. because i so want to believe the whole bible. it would make things so simple. i would never have to take responsibility for anything. i do follow the commandments – especially the one jesus gave us. but again, it’s easy because my life was never interesting enough to provide me with enemies.
i can’t wait to die. almost did several times last year. i can’t wait to judge god. to demand answers. why heal this one and not that one? the human mind can’t comprehend this because it disputes the laws of fairness that say we get what we deserve.
i love you christians and yes, one day i will meet my god. who i love. the god i am trying to defend against the bible.
judas … did he have free will? jesus knew what he was going to do. yet judas is the most hated man in history. and yet, without judas, jesus could not have risen from the dead.
i do believe jesus was born of a virgin, died and three days later, rose from the dead. but i can see why the jews of the time rejected him. first he’s performing miracles on the sabbath – what next?!? hanging out with whores. truly ask yourself, if jesus were here today, what christian would claim him?
CERN – opening portals to hell. a child grows up in vietnam when napal is being sprayed everywhere. is that not hell enough? okay for real i’m done.
my question was: adam and eve had children to populate the earth, but that could only be done if they had sex with their siblings. and there were other people around when cain killed abel. and there’s no hint of why his sacrifice was not as good as his brother’s. or did abel kill cain? whoever it was went on with god’s protection so the others wouldn’t kill him. who were the others?
If there was democracy in heaven I was going to vote for you to be God you are intelligent and wise
Thanks, but I don’t think I would accept the nomination. When you’re God, you get blamed for everything. 😉
500Q
Oh ye of little faith, Mathew 8:26
Look around at the nations and be amazed! For I am doing something in your own day, something you wouldn’t believe even if someone told you about it, Habakkuk 1:5
Untill now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will recive and your joy will be complete John 16:24
Um… okay.
I think God trusted his creations to do good just as he trusted Adam and Eve to do good and Lucifer made his decision from the beginning so he was the original author of choices he made . God is love and love always trusts…
To answer almost every question that has been asked regarding creation. I do know that God knew it was the only way for you to exist. That’s what makes God; God.
Reasoning! Haha my friend you are using man’s logic and thinking. And as men we try to reason or use scientific methods to answer any question and direct away from God’s glory. The simple question is do you believe that Jesus is God and through faith believe in Him, repent (ie. Change our life to be more in tune with the Holy Bible) and accept him as saviour. Despite logic and reasoning for the past thousand of years, why not ask this? Why are people still becoming Christians or becoming born-again in this age and since AD 1!???? Why don’t you ask the testimonies of born-again Christians and how God came into their lives and changed their very being? You see… Despite the logical arguments to disproof against what’s written in the Bible, God is mysteriously still calling people to himself today and has been since the beginning of time. (As of 2018 approximately 30% of the Earth are Christians! Wow all those philosophers and atheists in past 3000 years couldn’t prevent approx 2.3 Billion human souls coming to Christ!) See how powerful and mysterious God is? Haha maybe one day you will. If you truly aren’t afraid of your logic, then one day I suggest go to a quiet room, get down on your knees and ask ‘God if you are real show yourself!’ Prove your logic and be courageous. Tell others you did this silly thing and God didn’t answer! I pray one day you and many who read this will one day by the grace of The Lord be saved, and will be shown the truth and have peace in your life, mind and soul. God bless buddy.
God made your mind, your brain,you all. You dont have the mind of God to realize what He is thinking or intending. People dont be fools in trying to guess why.
Hi Hemademe!
Thank you for your comment.
But who made God’s mind? What was THIS God thinking? If a superior intelligence was not required to make God’s mind, then why was one required to make ours?
Sometimes we cannot know the answers, but logic and reason can help is rule out the fairy tales and most unlikely causes. Does God do illogical and unreasonable things? Or do these irrationalities exist because this character is a human invention?
Take care,
500Q