60. Did Zechariah 9:9-10 accurately predict that Jesus would ride a colt? And become a king? And bring world peace?

Jesus Riding a SnakeLet’s finish out Zechariah 9, which contains some of the Bible’s most specific prophecies about the messiah.

Zechariah 9:9-10

As you’ll recall, God (speaking through his mouthpiece Zechariah) had encouraged the Jewish remnant to rebuild his temple, which he promised to protect forever. How was God going to accomplish this? He promises (as well as predicts) that a new king would soon arrive, who would save the Jews from their enemies and bring about world peace.

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
The battle bow shall be cut off.
He shall speak peace to the nations;
His dominion shall be ‘from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.’”
— Zechariah 9:9-10

Our first authentic messianic prophecy!

This should go without saying, but messianic prophecies should be prophecies… about the messiah, and I appreciate that Zechariah 9:9-10 is just that. There is no need to convert a non-prophecy into a prophecy, or imagine that the messiah is hidden within a passage that’s also speaking to something else. Prophecies need to be specific.

Having reasonable standards for evaluating prophecy not only helps us to validate legitimate prophecy (should such a thing exist), but it also protects good prophecy from fraudulent claims. If the Bible is truly a divinely inspired work, then its prophecies should stand out from the crowd, but if others can perform the same prophetic tricks, then the Bible’s prophecies are not unique.

Zechariah makes several predictions here, and each one should be evaluated independently, since every prediction will have its own probability of coming to pass and its own potential for trickery and false-positives.

The Messiah will arrive on a colt

The first prediction is that a future king is forthcoming, and that he will arrive on a colt.

While it could be argued that this was a metaphor for a king who comes in peace — as opposed to one who arrives on a war-horse — each of the four gospels report that this prophecy was fulfilled literally (Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-10, Luke 19:28-38, and John 12:12-15).

 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me.”
— Matthew 21:1-2

The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the king of Israel!” Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written: “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.”
— John 12:12-15

The donkey and colt debate

Interestingly, Matthew is the only gospel where Jesus requests both a colt and a donkey, and his apostles return with two animals. In Mark and Luke, Jesus asks only for a colt, and that’s all they are said to return with (Mark 11:7, Luke 19:30). John gives a little different account, where Jesus locates the colt on his own, and then sits upon it, almost as an impromptu response to the fortuitous spotting of a colt; but still no mention of a donkey.

christs_entry_into_jerusalem_hippolyte_flandrin_1842Some skeptics argue that Matthew misunderstood Zechariah’s prediction, and believed the messiah was to arrive on both a donkey and a colt, and so he wrote the fulfillment to match his incorrect interpretation. However, assuming Matthew’s account is true, I wouldn’t fault the other gospel writers for not mentioning the donkey, since it was technically irrelevant. (Though I would fault John for claiming it was Jesus who found the donkey, since the other gospels claim otherwise.)

A self-fulfilling prophecy?

The bigger problem here is that the prophecy was so well-known it could’ve easily become self-fulfilling. If it’s true that the crowds cheered, “Blessed is the king of Israel!” then we can assume everyone knew the messiah was supposed to appear on a donkey, including Jesus.

Because this prophecy was well-known and well within human control (anyone can sit on a donkey), we can’t use this event to prove the claim that prophecy exists. It’s just as likely, if not more likely, that Zechariah made up the rules, and Jesus was simply following protocol.

The prophecy would’ve been much more impressive had it been placed further out of human control. For example, Zechariah could’ve predicted, “The messiah will come to you riding upon a giant snake.” If you saw Jesus riding on a gigantic snake, you’d say, “Oh, look, this must be our guy… because… well… giant snake!” This would’ve made it nearly impossible for anyone but the true messiah to fulfill.

Another problem with this prophecy is that its fulfillment is easily claimed and difficult to verify or disprove. If Jesus never took that famous colt ride, it would’ve been nothing for someone to lie and claim that he did, especially if it were decades later.

The messiah would be king

The most basic requirement of the Jewish messiah is that he would be the King of Israel (in fact, he is repeatedly referred to as the king). While anyone can ride a donkey, it’s much more difficult to convince people to make you their king (believe me, I’ve tried).

icone_md1Becoming the King of Israel is also something that’s difficult to lie about at a later date. While it may have been possible for early Christians to lie about Jesus riding a donkey (or being born of a virgin), they couldn’t go around claiming, “Jesus once ruled as the King of Israel!” because people could prove they were full of crap.

So as a prophecy, becoming the King of Israel scores points for being difficult to accomplish, and difficult to lie about. However, it’s still within human control. Even if Jesus did become the literal King of Israel, it could be argued that this was because Zechariah’s prophecy inspired the Jews to seek out such a person.

Only… Jesus never became the King of Israel.

Rather than admit defeat, Christians took to saying Jesus was still alive… but (for various legal reasons) he could not serve as the literal King of Israel… not right now, anyway. Instead, Jesus was said to be reigning as a spiritual king, on his spiritual throne, in his spiritual kingdom; and would one day return to reign as Israel’s real king.

Obviously, this new non-literal adaptation cannot qualify as fulfillment of the original prophecy, since these things are easily claimed, and impossible to prove or disprove.

When Christians compromised this prophecy by saying it was permissible for it to be fulfilled spiritually, they took a prophecy that would’ve been somewhat difficult to fulfill, and turned it into something that was easy for anyone to fulfill. Hell, we could even claim that Adolf Hitler once rode a colt (can’t prove he didn’t), and that he now reigns as a spiritual king at the right hand of God (can’t prove he doesn’t), and that he will one day return to earth to reign as Israel’s king (can’t prove he won’t).

One other difficulty with this reinterpretation is that it takes away from the original understanding the Jews would’ve had (more on this in a moment).

World Peace?

While it’s easy to ride a donkey, and possible to become a literal king, it’s nearly impossible to become a world leader and bring about world peace. But bringing about world peace was what the messiah was predicted to do.

“We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace.”
— Zachariah 1:11

I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.
— Zachariah 9:10

I love this last prophecy, because it meets just about every criteria for a good messianic prophecy: it’s clear that it’s a prophecy, it’s clear it’s about the messiah, it’s highly unlikely that a Jewish king would ever gain global dominion and bring about world peace (though it’s still technically within human control), and it would be difficult to lie about such a great achievement (if taken literally).

PrinceOfPeaceOne thing that would disqualify this from being a good prophecy is if there were no deadline, and this is absolutely critical in order to qualify as a respectable prophecy. Like milk, all good prophecies need an expiration date, so we know when they’ve gone bad.

The implicit deadline is that world peace would come within the lifetime of the messiah, or very soon afterward. While there is no deadline given for when the messiah would arrive, we can logically assume it would’ve been before the destruction of the temple, which he was coming to protect.

Only… Jesus did not bring about world peace.

Once again, rather than admit defeat, Christianity extends the deadline indefinitely by claiming that Jesus would return from the dead to bring world peace, and no man knows the day nor the hour when this will occur.

By converting this to an open-ended prophecy, Christianity prevents it from ever failing, but this also compromises the value of the prophecy. Had Jesus literally brought about world peace, it would’ve been very impressive. But by saying the prophecy allows for messiahs to return from the dead to do it later, we once again make it easy for anyone to fulfill. Hitler too may one day return from the dead to bring about world peace (can’t prove he won’t). It’s easy to claim, and impossible to prove or disprove.

The reason deadlines are so critical is because, without them, predictions can be worded so they are never wrong. That’s right. If you want to be a good prophet, make sure you never set a deadline. Some of your predictions will, by chance, come to pass, while all the others can be considered pending in perpetuity.

For example, you could predict that “In the future, significant meteors will impact the Americas, Asia, Russia, and disturb our oceans. There will also be great wars on every continent, except Antarctica. And when you see the great Humpback whales wash ashore in Sydney, you will know that the arrival of the alien mother-ship is near.”

People in the distant future might say, “This person has never been wrong! Several of these things have already come to pass, and based on this perfect performance record, we can conclude that all of the other predictions will also come to pass!” But that simply isn’t true. The predictions that did come to pass were statistically possible, and the others may never happen. With open-ended prophecies, you can always be right, but still be wrong (though no one will ever know).

To be completely fair, an open-ended prophecy might be impressive if it predicted something exceedingly improbable that actually did come to pass. But without the actual fulfillment, open-ended prophecies are worthless. 

Did God have a change of plans?

Many Christians will argue, “But wait! This entire prophecy was supposed to be fulfilled literally! But because the Jews rejected God, God had no choice but to fulfill the prophecy in some other fashion!”

But if God knows the future, then he knew the Jews were going to reject him. A God who cannot deceive would’ve had no choice but to either remain silent, or predict the actual future. Leaving out critical information is tantamount to lying, and God would’ve been deceiving the Jews by not telling them they were doomed to fail, and that their temple would be destroyed, and that they would never receive the literal king they were expecting. By not clarifying these points, God purposefully misled the Jews to believe one thing when he knew he meant another.

Zechariah did not predict a messiah who would fail to become a literal king, or fail to literally bring about world peace, or a messiah who would rise from the dead thousands of years later to accomplish these things; and there is certainly no way the Jewish remnant would’ve seen these messages in Zachariah’s prophecy. These ideas had to be read into the prophecy in hindsight, and it appears these excuses have evolved in order to prevent Jesus from appearing as a failed prophet.

Conclusion

As prophecies, these are specific enough to have potential, but with their Christian reinterpretations, they become easily fulfilled, left open-ended, and unable to prove anything about prophecy or Jesus.

If one assumes the Bible was written by mere men, can we explain the existence of these prophecies and their purported fulfillments in the absence of a divine fortune-teller? I think we can.

Any prophecy or prediction (especially one made in a religious context) creates an expectation. In this case, Zechariah creates an expectation that a king will soon arrive to save the day. Without this expectation, Jews would’ve never even begun looking to crown a king. (Why do people make prophetic predictions? People are just wacky that way.)

As Jews began scouring the landscape looking for a someone to crown king, Jesus and other hopefuls selflessly volunteered. Why would anyone do that? Who knows — maybe they thought they could actually become a king, or maybe they liked all the attention, or maybe the job came with an excellent dental plan; everyone wants to be special. Even today there are people who claim to be the returned Christ (people are just wacky that way). The prophecy that Christ would return has also created an expectation, and people have also, likewise, volunteered for this position. Regardless of why people do it, we know that they do. 

060406_gospel_170The next prediction is that this messiah will ride a colt, and Jesus may have ridden a colt (or sat on one) precisely because he was expected to. Alternatively, Jesus’ followers may have lied and claimed he rode a colt. Why would someone lie about the events of Jesus’ life? Well, we know that others from around that era also wrote gospels that contained lies about Jesus’ life, which is why many gospels were excluded from the Bible. Again, regardless of why they did it, we know it’s something people of the time were fully capable of doing, and they did.

Next, Jesus needed to become the King of Israel, but he was executed. Whether Jesus now reigns as a spiritual king (or Hitler does), we will never know, but the prophecy cannot be declared fulfilled with no proof of fulfillment.

The prophecy of world peace holds the most potential. While not impossible, a Jewish monarch bringing about world peace would be impressive. But Jesus never does this. It’s much easier to say your messiah will return from the dead to do it later, than it is to actually do it. With no deadline, there is no failure, but there is also no success.

Of these specific prophecies, Jesus fulfilled the easiest one, and the others had to be fulfilled spiritually or left open-ended.

Rather than abandon their faith, both Jews and Christians are guilty of reinterpreting this chapter to be about either non-literal events or events in the distant future.

I believe the truth is that this prophecy was intended to be taken literally by the Jewish remnant, and that it had an implicit deadline. This is evidenced by 1) the remnant that was being addressed, and how they would’ve understood the prophecy, 2) by the enemies that were named in the same chapter (current enemies, not enemies in the distant future), and 3) by the temple God had ordered them to build and was promising to protect (the king was coming to protect a literal temple, not a future temple, or a rebuilt temple, or a spiritual temple).

I will strengthen them in the Lord and in his name they will live securely,” declares the Lord.
— Zechariah 10:12

While I can sympathize with Jews and Christians and their desire to hold on to religious tradition, anyone seeking an honest interpretation will find their religiously-motivated reinterpretations ultimately intellectually unsatisfying, and the acceptance of prophetic failure more consistent with the facts.

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34 Responses to 60. Did Zechariah 9:9-10 accurately predict that Jesus would ride a colt? And become a king? And bring world peace?

  1. John Hill says:

    You are a really smart guy! You’ve managed to prove that you can’t prove what hasn’t happened yet. So, I guess it is best to just not believe in anything, because we are so much better off when we rely on how smart we are and how stupid everyone else is. The great thing about God is that He loves us enough to give us exactly what we want. You will probably be making these arguments for eternity.

    • rautakyy says:

      @John Hill, you claim: “The great thing about God is that He loves us enough to give us exactly what we want.” How do you know this?

      Why should not anyone believe in anything? Where did you get that from? It is recommendable to believe stuff, that has valid evidence to back it up. Correct? As equally as it is not recommendable to believe stuff that has no actual evidence. Right? Do you have valid evidence to back up these prophesies our gracious host has questioned?

  2. rautakyy says:

    I am the spiritual king of the Finns, sit on my spiritual throne, and rule my spiritual kingdom, and I am about to bring the world peace any day now, or perhaps within a few millenia. If you do not believe this, you will be suffering for an eternity as a maggot in the icy halls of Tuonela. You would not want that to happen? Would you? Look, I can do it even without ancient obscure prophesies – make a wild claim and boost it with empty threats.

    How is it, that anyone who has actually read the four Gospels chosen at Nikea, hundreds of years after the suggested events, would think they are actually eyewittness accounts of the actual events? They do not get one single thing right between them. They resemble each other as much as the Hobbit movies resemble the actual book – wich is not much. Or even, how different people tell what they remember about either the book, or the films decades after anyone of them saw, or read either, or even more likely what they remember someone who actually saw one of the films or read part of the book told them about the story. And we are expected to take the story for real??? For some reason people are first taught that these stories are true and only after they are convinced about the Gospels being true, they are to find them true, when reading. People are wacky that way, that they tend to have a bias to believe what ever claim was told them first, not what claim has best evidence to support it. I call it stupidity. Am I wrong?

    But you make valid points about how we should determine wether any prophesy is actually a prediction, or more likely is not.

  3. Seb says:

    Hi, it´s been a year and a half since I last commented (I don´t know if you remember me). I just want to thank you because thanks to YOU, I became closer to God than ever. It wasn´t easy…. but your articles were just what I needed to read to know that it was God who I chose to love. You are so busy constructing your next piece and maybe you don´t have time to see what´s happening in our world… especially this past year. Wow… prophecies are certainly coming to fruition. It´s sad that to you, the prophets will always just be really, really, really GOOD guessers. I have prayed for you more than once… and I will continue to pray for you. How many years was it that you were a believer? Was it 30? Maybe I´m off by a couple of years. In any case, I hope that what we are going to witness happen (next year) will be enough to bring you to your knees…. and back in repentance to the Lord. God bless you always…. In Christ, Sebastian.

    • rautakyy says:

      Hi Seb, sorry to but in, but I am really curious. When you say: “…prophecies are certainly coming to fruition.” What do you mean? Wich profesies are you referring to and how are they coming into fruition?

      • Yes, I’m curious too. What is going to happen next year? Can you be specific?

        • rautakyy says:

          Perhaps Sebastian means the world peace, as that is obviously coming into fruition… Or perhaps, that the “battle bow” is broken etcetera, because we no longer fight with bows, chariots, or warhorses.

        • BIGFOOT says:

          “Prophecies are certainly coming to fruition”

          Global Communistic Dictatorship is coming I,e the Beast of the Anti-Christ

          • rautakyy says:

            Wich kind of “Global Communistic Dictatorship” are you referring to, the Stalin sort, or the Star Trek kind?

            How do you know such a thing is coming? During my lifespan communist dictatorships have been very much in decline. Several have been abolished. None have been erected within half a century. So, such a claim does not seem like a very likely event anywhere in the near future, unless you have some hard evidence for it. How do you base this prediction of yours?

            • BIGFOOT says:

              Mostly you have not been observant. Global Communistic Dictatorship is coming, and you can take that one to the Bank. If you have ever heard of a strategy known as Hegelian Dialectic, you need to update yourself and very fast. At least to know what is happening, and why.

              • I’m sorry I couldn’t make myself more clear, but open-ended prophecies are worthless.

                For 2,000 years, the arrival of the anti-Christ (just like the return of Christ), has always been “just around the corner.” If you’ve got the balls to say “the Bible predicts a Global Communistic Dictatorship will come in 2015,” then we have something, and we can prove you right or wrong in 12 months and settle the matter. But if you prefer to say it’s “coming” in the same way that “Jesus is coming soon,” then this is a worthless, “safe,” open-ended prophecy that can never be proven wrong. In another 2000 years, people could still be claiming the same thing!

                But frankly, even if it did happen, it doesn’t predict anything beyond human control. Can your predict something specific and more useful? Like exactly when and where the next great natural disaster will strike? What will it be? Where will it take place? What time? Let us know now, so that we can give these people some advance warning, and God can receive credit for such an amazing prophecy! Or does God prefer to keep these kinds of things a surprise? So the maximum number of people can die?

                Regards,
                500Q

                • BIGFOOT says:

                  Now, I can only briefly very briefly take you though some of the pointers to Global Communistic Dictatorship. I cannot convince you have to do your own research. Its coming through Central Banks, which will be controlled by One Central Bank. That, is the Financial Arm of One World Government. The continued “Millennium Development Goals” and encouragement of consumerism, will trap government in unplayable dept( Example Portugal, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Cyprus………its happening. To pay their International Dept, governments might be forced to raid Social Security Systems and Private Savings leading to reduced consumption and implementation of Structural……..”Terrorism will continue…..and increase……….it will be used to curtail freedoms. America has just normalized relationships with Cuba………it should tell you something. Putin….in a 3 hour press meeting have lambasted the “West” But they normally meet during the G 20 forum……..it should tell you something. United Nations is the political arm, encouraging political unions of blocks of countries. All this is leading to Global Union of Governments or “Globalization” or World Government, or New World Order………which will be Despotism of Capital………Monopoly of Global Government Credit. , (Eustace Mullins The World Order: A Study in the Hegemony of Parasitism) .” (See “Tragedy and Hope A History of the World in Our Time” Carroll Quigley) Do not believe me. Go do your own research……………I could be wrong. I hope I am.

                  • rautakyy says:

                    There are awfull lot of very big “mights” and “coulds” in your prediction. I do not recommend anyone to “take it to the bank”, as you so eagerly put it.

                    The term “New World Order” was first used by Michael Gorbatshov, when he tried to express his ideas of how the balance in the world should be set after the cold war. We all know how his plans worked out… It was also used by Georg Bush a bit later to describe his vision of the global strategy of the US political right wing. And now you tell me it is some sort of secret communist conspiracy strategy to bring on some form of world goverment? Really???

                    USA finally trying to normalize its relationship with the only Latin American country, with lower infant death rates and higher literacy rate than the US is welcome news, though not necessarily for the Cubans. The embargo sure seems to have protected the Cubans from global corporations such as Monsanto, that has run rampant through the other Caribean states wreaking insurmountable havoc. Whose economic system really is better, if the minute country under embargo can provide citizens with free healthcare and education while their only exports are sugar and cigars and the superpower seems to struggle to provide with any such basic stuff to its own citizens?

                    Is it not good for the world that there remains a means for open conversation between the non-communistic and very much a capitalistic market economy of Russia today and the so called western countries? What has any of this to do with all the failed Biblical prophesies, or the imaginary Anti-Christ character?

              • rautakyy says:

                @BIGFOOT, You can make the wildest claims like a “Global Communist Dictatorship is coming as much as you wish, but if you want, that anyone with half a brain, will take you seriously, you should be able to back up your claim by evidence. Correct? Why don’t you?

                Hegelian dialectic is not a strategy. It is a philosophical method of a thesis, giving rise to its reaction, an antithesis, which contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis. I fail to see the relevance here. Or is there a nother meaning to this concept as some sort of secret strategy of Global Communist Dictatorship, that is just about to emerge, but at present and for the unseeable future is just hiding, a bit like all the gods? Enlighten me. Please.

                Hegel was updated by Marx and Engels in their Material Dialectic, is that what you are referring to, when you ask me to “update” myself?

                • BIGFOOT says:

                  Well I do not think you will believe me, but if you care to know, you will need to research on your own. Now, it could be that you have faith in human beings, and on the average, it could be that you would never suspect that people are capable of a great wickedness, but believe me, when Godliness is removed from the minds of Men, when man fears no god, real or imagined, he is capable of pretty much anything, especially when he feels that he has covered his plans.
                  Hegelian Dialectics is pretty much a strategy and if you do not understand how virulently evil it is, and even how common it is, you can very easily become a victim. It’s a mind control technique used very effectively on people who are reactionary, which is pretty much, everybody.

                  • rautakyy says:

                    @Bigfoot. I am quite willing to do the research myself, but you have to give me at the very least a starting point. So, I ask again. What is the relevance of Hegelian dialectic to any imaginary communist dictatorships appearing in the future, in your opinion? Because at the moment you are not making much sense.

                    I totally agree with you, that “…when man fears no god, real or imagined, he is capable of pretty much anything…” I am such a man. That is, gods have no authoritarianistic restraints on my mind, not that I could sprout wings from the tips of my shoulders at will, or anything such. I percieve this not only a liberating thought, but a very positive situation, ethically, morally and progressively.

                    How did you come to believe, that “great wickedness” is somehow connected to “…Godliness being removed from the minds of Men…” ??? That makes no sense. I have never ever had any godliness in me as I am an atheist in the third generation, but I have every reason to think I am a pretty just and moral man. In fact, I see godliness as the main restraint for masses to learn about ethics, replacing their ability for morals with authoriarian tribal moralism and arbitrary commands from entities whose benevolence, or even the very existance has never been demonstrated. That is no different from what we generally call a hoax. Right?

                    Even though any people are capable of wickedness, regardless of their godliness, or non-godliness – as history stands to prove – it is in our ability to also choose good over wickedness. Benefit over harm. Correct? Now, how should we go about this business? By choosing the random religious authoritarianism of our particular cultural heritage (as most men do) and take it at face value regardless of the lack of evidence for the fairytales and obviously failed prophesies etc. (as proven in this topic post by our gracious host) , or by concidering what harm, or benefit follows from actual actions and inaction?

                    • BIGFOOT says:

                      watchmenbs@aol.com
                      Your Question
                      @Bigfoot. I am quite willing to do the research myself, but you have to give me at the very least a starting point.
                      My Answer
                      The Starting point is Money, and how it comes into circulation. Start with the History of Money. I suggest you read (Ellen Hodgson Brown, J.D. WEB OF DEBT The Shocking Truth About Our Money System and How We Can Break Free) Its not the only one, but it’s a starting pint.
                      Your Question
                      So, I ask again. What is the relevance of Hegelian dialectic to any imaginary communist dictatorships appearing in the future, in your opinion? Because at the moment you are not making much sense.
                      My Answer
                      Hegelian dialectics creates “ Reality Based Communities” These communities are masses who react to “Manufactured Realities” which direct them towards a “Mind Matrix” of conformists to a group mindset fashioned by the “Mind Matrix”
                      Your Question
                      How did you come to believe, that “great wickedness” is somehow connected to “…Godliness being removed from the minds of Men…” ??? That makes no sense. I have never ever had any godliness in me as I am an atheist in the third generation, but I have every reason to think I am a pretty just and moral man. In fact, I see godliness as the main restraint for masses to learn about ethics, replacing their ability for morals with authoriarian tribal moralism and arbitrary commands from entities whose benevolence, or even the very existance has never been demonstrated. That is no different from what we generally call a hoax. Right?
                      My Answer
                      Now, I wish I had room and time, but I am limited with both. But I will tell you one thing; Just because man is made not to fear God or gods, does not necessarily mean that he is liberated from the power of fear, and its pervasive influence over men. Just because men want you not to fear gods, does not necessarily mean that they will not use the power of fear to lord it over you! I do not judge you because of your atheism, but your atheism is no less akin to an antelope taunting a tired over fed lion. The lion may ignore it, why bother. But that does not mean that the antelope is safe………..from other predators. So, your atheism may appear to have convinced you that you are liberated from God, but how has this liberation saved you from the capriciousness of men? I do not deny that “godliness” has been used to persecute, intimidate, harass, many. God does not impose his will on men. After all, it would be nonsensical to claim that man has self-will, and yet interject that God imposes His will on man. Man unfortunately has created the image of God, using his own image and likeness. So, the god being soled by most religious people is actually a false Image, and it explains why most people especially the so-called “atheists” deny existence of God, because the image of God being preached is distorted. Rest assured that a liberated atheists can set themselves up to the manipulation of men.
                      Your question
                      Even though any people are capable of wickedness, regardless of their godliness, or non-godliness – as history stands to prove – it is in our ability to also choose good over wickedness. Benefit over harm. Correct?
                      My Answer
                      This is relative. We rather should use a principle. “ What is harmful to you, do not do it to others, regardless of what they do to you”

        • Adams517 says:

          So. It’s been well over a year since that guy posted about some major things happening in the next year. Now that 2015 has passed….I just want to say that everything is pretty much the same!😂. Wait….maybe he was making a spiritual prediction of something we can’t see, hear, or feel?

          • Yes, perhaps I missed it… but the promised events of 2015 weren’t quite thrilling enough to “bring me to my knees and back in repentance.”

            While I do appreciate that Seb set a deadline of 2015 (just as Jesus set a deadline of “one generation” for his return, see question #64), the prediction of “what is going to happen” is about as vague as humanly possible. Literally just about any news story could be used to claim it was fulfilled.

            Is there not a single Christian out there able to predict a SPECIFIC event? For example, when will the next big earthquake hit San Francisco? Or what day will the next tsunami hit Japan? What time? Or what will be the winning numbers of the next Powerball lottery? Anyone? Anyone at all?

            For a God who is supposed to be good at prophecy, he certainly does shy away from making very specific predictions. All it takes is one good one to convince me. Anyone up to the challenge? Anyone willing to prove me wrong? Anyone?

            500Q

  4. Leighton Taylor says:

    Unfortunately and somewhat strange is that the writers of the bible relied on the readers reasoning ability to receive and understand the message. When that same reasoning ability is used to question the authenticity of it’s contents then believers insists you should rely on faith.In today’s day and age it has become increasingly difficult to read a single scripture without realizing that what we are reading is the culture, tradition and belief of the time when the book was written and no more.

  5. BIGFOOT says:

    Its difficult for most people to understand the bible in the light of humanistic expectations. We always seek to view the Christ as in “What He was to do for us” But we cut off God’s expectations of His Messiah. Messiah came to fulfill for God, what God sought from us, which we could not achieve alone. So, as long as we seek “what is for us” in the Christ but leave out, “what is for God” in the Christ, the message of the Christ will for ever be hidden.

    “Only… Jesus never became the King of Israel.”

    Jesus was not to come and be a king of Israel-only. He was to come and be the King of Israel and the whole world.

    “Rather than admit defeat, Christians took to saying Jesus was still alive… but (for various legal reasons) he could not serve as the literal King of Israel… not right now, anyway. Instead, Jesus was said to be reigning as a spiritual king, on his spiritual throne, in his spiritual kingdom; and would one day return to reign as Israel’s real king”

    Its not a matter of admitting defeat. It’s a matter of understanding Jesus Kingship. Jesus is the King of Resurrection. He raised the dead, but succumbed to death in order to defeat it. He is the King of Eternal Life, not this temporal life. ”Yes, its my Fathers will, that whoever sees the Son, and believes in him, shall have eternal life, and I shall raise him up, on the last day” John 6:39-40. And He confirmed this, by Resurrecting.

    World Peace?
    “Only… Jesus did not bring about world peace.”
    Sorry, Jesus NEVER EVER promised peace in this world. People refuse to listen to what he sais and then accuse Him of lying. He said specifically; “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. “f you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. John 15: 18-20
    Then again He warned “In this World you will have much trouble, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the World!” John 16: 32-33. So, for followers of the Christ, trouble is expected in the world. But there is a peace that Christ gives to His followers, a peace that the world cannot give.

    “Once again, rather than admit defeat, …”
    Peace reigns in paradise. Not in this World. This world is under judgment. “Still, I must tell you the truth: its for your own good, that I am going, because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you. And when He comes, he will show the world, how wrong it was about sin. And about who was right, and about judgment” John 16:7-10

    Did God have a change of plans?”
    “. A God who cannot deceive would’ve had no choice but to either remain silent, or predict the actual future”.

    This was the prediction of the future Messiah which Jews ignored; ‘Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city, for putting away transgressions, for placing the seal on sin, for expiating crime, for introducing everlasting integrity, for setting the seal on vision and prophecy, for anointing the Holy of Holies. Know then, and understand: from the time this message went out, “Return and rebuild Jerusalem” to the coming of the anointed prince, seven weeks and sixty two weeks, with squares and ramparts restore and rebuild, but in a time of trouble. And after sixty two weeks, an anointed one will be cut of- and …will not be for him- the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed, by a prince who will come. His end will come in catastrophe, and until the end, there will be war and all the devastation decreed. He will make firm covenant with many, for the space of one week, and for the space of one and a half week, he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation, and on the wing of the temple, will be disastrous abomination until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator.” Daniel 9:24-27

    But of course, you will believe what you want.

    • rautakyy says:

      @BIGFOOT, may I suggest, that we continue the conversation here, as the column abowe is growing awfully thin and already hard to read?

      You wrote: “Messiah came to fulfill for God, what God sought from us, which we could not achieve alone.” And the creator of the entire universe supposedly wanted a blood sacrifice where Jesus was inconvinienced for a couple of days for the sins of mankind? Do you see, how primitive and bizarre this sounds, when put in the cultural context? How could we possibly know, that anything of this is true? What logic could possibly convince us, that it is more likely, that such a strange occurance between humanity and the alledged creator entity, never proven even to exist, is more likely explanation to the story, than that it is just a nother myth among the many myths invented by superstitious human psyche trying to explain the observable and as we have learned lately very material universe around us, by supernatural and other very superstitious story telling elements?

      You wrote: “Jesus was not to come and be a king of Israel-only. He was to come and be the King of Israel and the whole world.” And when is this supposed to happen? Because Jesus became exactly as much the king of Israel as he has become the king of the whole world – not at all… Remember, open ended prophesies do not serve as evidence of fulfilled, or even in any way reliable prophesies. Even if they once became true, we are not warranted a belief in them, before we have evidence of them becoming true. Are we? Because unless you are ready to believe any other religious or superstitious prophesies without evidence and based on faith in them, you will only be engaged in special pleading. Are you not?

      You wrote: “Sorry, Jesus NEVER EVER promised peace in this world.” How could you so utterly and totally fail to see the point our host was making? It was not about Jesus making any promises, but that the prophesy supposedly confirming Jesus as something else than just a nother rogue rabbi, promised he would bring about world peace. And we are back at the starting point – Jesus did not bring about world peace. Hence, the relevance is, that the prophesy fails, or that Jesus fails to fulfil the prophesy. Either way, this removes any justification to use such a prophesy as proof or evidence of Jesus being any way divine. In fact it proves, that this prophesy had nothing to do with the Jesus character, even if he and his fan-boy-fantom-writers later claimed him to have fulfilled some parts (the easy ones like riding a donkey or a colt). Right? Do you now see what the topic point was?

      Before commenting, please read the topic post through again. 😉

      • BIGFOOT says:

        Your Question

        You wrote: “Messiah came to fulfill for God, what God sought from us, which we could not achieve alone.” And the creator of the entire universe supposedly wanted a blood sacrifice where Jesus was inconvinienced for a couple of days for the sins of mankind? Do you see, how primitive and bizarre this sounds, when put in the cultural context? How could we possibly know, that anything of this is true? What logic could possibly convince us, that it is more likely, that such a strange occurance between humanity and the alledged creator entity, never proven even to exist, is more likely explanation to the story, than that it is just a nother myth among the many myths invented by superstitious human psyche trying to explain the observable and as we have learned lately very material universe around us, by supernatural and other very superstitious story telling elements?

        My Answer
        Now, let me slowly explain my point: In order to understand the story of Jesus, you have to go back…….all the way back to the Genesis Story of Adam and Even. Mark you, Adam and Eve were not supposed to come to the earth. “The Fall” happened when they disobeyed God, and ate from the tree of “Good, and Evil” Now, many have claimed that this tree had attributes of “good” and Evil” but to me, it was not the case. The tree was merely a symbol or a sign to remind Adam and Evil of there accountability to God, and obey Him Only, and always. So as long as they obeyed Him and they did not eat of the Tree, they knew “good” because they obeyed God. But when they ate of the tree, this was a disobedience to God, and they felt the consequences of this disobedience by guilt, which led them to hiding. They felt naked, and exposed, because they fell for a lie. As the Son and Daughter of God, they were already gods. The lie was that the tree would give them special attributes but after they ate of the tree, they realized they already had these attributes, and eating of the tree, resulted with their losing them. Adam and Eve, were Son and Daughter of God the Father, the Cause of Creation. When they failed to obey God the Father, they could not reveal Him to Mankind, and therefore God as “The Father” the Cause of Creation” became unknown to Mankind.
        Now, after the fall, God set out a plan for Redemption of Man, (His Image and Likeness” But since Man, believed in many gods, God could not reveal himself to Man, directly, because Man would think that God was just another of the many gods Man believed in. (Remember Moses asking God His name, because in Egypt, there were many gods.)
        Now, sine Adam knew the True God from Paradise, God decided to use the linage of Adam and Eve, who were to teach Mankind about the One True God. But God could not reveal Himself to this linage as God the Father, but God as the Creator. As He told Moses, God was known to the patriarchs as The El-Shandai, or El-Him. Its this linage of Adam, which later became the house of Jacob, which God over 7000 years, tried to teach them about Himself, so that by relating to God correctly, Israelites may show the whole world, that Yahweh, The Great I AM, was the Only True God. They were supposed to do this, by knowing good and evil, and learning to chose good always, and blessing would follow them. Its as He beseeched them. “ Seek good, and not evil, so that you may live, and that Yahweh God Saboath may really be with you as you claim he is. Hate evil love good, maintain justice at the city gate and it may be that Yahweh, God of Saboath will take pity on the remnants of Joseph. “Amos 5:14-15
        When the Israelites and the Jews failed to obey God, and therefore teach Mankind about the One True God, God had no other choice but to reveal himself directly to Mankind. But since God is in everything He had to reveal himself to Man, in a way that Man would understand Him. That’s why, He reveals himself as a Trinity, in Himself as God the Manifest. As God who Manifests creation, and as God who becomes manifested amongst His Creation, and as a Creation. In this state, Christ, is the Immanuel, God amongst His Creation! When God revealed Himself to Man as a Creation, he could not avoid, sharing with Man, (And the House of Jacob) what man manifested on earth in his ignorance that he is a Spirit in Flesh. And this manifestation by Man, is the evil which results with death, which is unconsciousness of Man as Spirit.
        So, in as much as you may think that there is no “logic (that) could possibly convince us, that it is more likely, that such a strange occurrence between humanity and the alleged creator entity” the only reason which makes you not understand this logic is because you are alive, and not dead. God came to deal with death, which Man manifested with his sin. So, Christ, knowing that He came as a Redeemer, knew that he came to die for Man, so that he may live for God. Now, there is of course the question why God allowed Christ to die. There was a deal between God and the Christ. “Redeem Man for me………and I will make you my King” Where did I get this? Here; “Why this uproar amongst the nations, this impotent muttering of the pagans- Kings of the earth raising Revolt. Princes plot together against Yahweh and His Anointed, ‘Now let us break their fetters! Now let us throw off their yoke!” The One whose throne is in heaven seats laughing. Yahweh derides them. Then, angrily he addresses them, In His rage, He strikes them with panic: This is my King, installed by me, on Zion the Holy Mountain!” Psalms 2: 1-5
        So, Christ did not come to save, redeem, rule, judge, lead, only the Jews, but all mankind. How did he do this? It’s the same old command by God. To know good and evil, but to choose good, unto death. God gave the Christ the opportunity to know good and evil, and the freedom to choose good for God and Man. God did not force the Christ to die. He did not want the Christ to die. Its Man, and the Jewish authority that wanted the Christ to die. God wanted the Christ to live. That’s why, after obeying God unto death, God resurrected Him. As the Son of Man and the Son of God, Christ came to do the will of God and His Image, the Human Spirit.
        You wrote: “Jesus was not to come and be a king of Israel-only. He was to come and be the King of Israel and the whole world.” And when is this supposed to happen?
        Christ is the King of Resurrection. He is the King of Resurrection, who is the resurrection! He resurrected those who obey Him on earth. So, its not like his rule is like the rule of Men. No. So, the Kingdom of the Christ is not ruled like that of Men. It’s a kingdom that is unseen, ruled by unseen ruler, and it does not admit observation. When this happened? After Resurrection Christ has always ruled. You will know this on your last day.

        Your Question
        You wrote: “Sorry, Jesus NEVER EVER promised peace in this world.” How could you so utterly and totally fail to see the point our host was making? It was not about Jesus making any promises, but that the prophesy supposedly confirming Jesus as something else than just a nother rogue rabbi, promised he would bring about world peace. And we are back at the starting point – Jesus did not bring about world peace. Hence, the relevance is, that the prophesy fails, or that Jesus fails to fulfill the prophesy. Either way, this removes any justification to use such a prophesy as proof or evidence of Jesus being any way divine. In fact it proves, that this prophesy had nothing to do with the Jesus character, even if he and his fan-boy-fantom-writers later claimed him to have fulfilled some parts (the easy ones like riding a donkey or a colt). Right? Do you now see what the topic point was?

        My Answer
        As I said, Jesus is the King of Resurrection. His kingdom is paradoxical. So the relevance of this prophesy can only be realized in resurrection, not in this world. And he fulfilled this prophesy by Resurrecting His followers. He did not come to bring peace in this world, but the world to come. And this peace will only be for those who rules with the Christ in this world, by applying the rule of the Logos King.

        • rautakyy says:

          @Bigfoot, you are merely evading my question. I am aware of the fairytale explanation to the story, there is no need to recite it slowly, or otherwise, but my question still remains: How could we possibly know, that anything of this is true? Is it not by far more logical to assume it is a mere myth among myths?

          You wrote: “His kingdom is paradoxical. ” What could be a reason for any of us to take a paradox at face value and accept it as truth? If you do, you are merely engaging in special pleading for one myth.

          You wrote: “And he fulfilled this prophesy by Resurrecting His followers.” Wich is nothing more than a nother wild claim you can not possibly prove, or provide any sane evidence for. Can you? However, even if it were true. It would present this Jesus character in a very unethical and downright appallingly vile light. A god that could save all, but chooses to save only those who abandon reason to believe a one myth over all the others. A choise done mostly by people only according to their cultural heritage. This is aking to racism.

          Besides, again you are evading. My question was, how did you miss the point of the topic post?

          Abowe you wrote: “I suggest you read (Ellen Hodgson Brown, J.D. WEB OF DEBT The Shocking Truth About Our Money System and How We Can Break Free) Its not the only one, but it’s a starting pint.”

          Thanks for your recommendation of a book. Perhaps I will read it. Perhaps not, since this is not a strong enough starting point for me to even suspect anything you have said about future conspiracies for communist dictatorships to have any truth value and I already have a long list of reading ahead of me. A book that might have some conspiracy theory in it, does not do the trick in a conversation. Do you have any concrete evidence for your wild claim?

          You wrote: “Hegelian dialectics creates “ Reality Based Communities” These communities are masses who react to “Manufactured Realities” which direct them towards a “Mind Matrix” of conformists to a group mindset fashioned by the “Mind Matrix”

          What nonsense? The Hegelian dialectic does no such things as you would suggest, it is a philosophical method as I mentioned and explained abowe. Go look it up. Either you just made this woo up, or someone has fooled you big time. It has nothing to do with any imagined future communist dictatorships. If it has, show us the connection.

          You wrote:”Just because man is made not to fear God or gods, does not necessarily mean that he is liberated from the power of fear, and its pervasive influence over men.”

          Fear is a natural reaction and a survival trait. It is beneficial when it warns us of real dangers and might be harmfull when it takes controll over us, especially when we get scared something that is not worthy of our fear. For a reasonable man to fear any particular god, there should first be evidence of this god even existing. If one fears all of them just in case one of them is true, one lives a life of fear. If one chooses to fear one particular one, how is that choise made? By our cultural heritage, like most people choose their gods, or by choosing the one of whom not fearing might have the most terrible consequenses? Wich one would that be? Jesus, Allah, Kali, Hela, or some else. Ridiculous.

          You wrote: “So, your atheism may appear to have convinced you that you are liberated from God, but how has this liberation saved you from the capriciousness of men?”

          I am not liberated from false fears by my atheism, but by my skepticism. My atheism is only the result of my skepticism. You said, that your: “God does not impose His own will on man.” Indeed, that is one of the many things in common to all the gods. They do not impose anything, because they do not exist other than in the imagination of men. But when they do, they do impose themselves on those men. Do they not? Or what motivates the religious suicide bomber? It does not matter what sort of image of a god is being presented, it still is a positive claim that one (or several) exist, and as such that claim needs to be proven before we have any REASON to take it seriously. Before we are warranted at having serious beliefs about them existing. Many have tried, all have failed. Have you got anything substantial?

          You wrote: “ What is harmful to you, do not do it to others, regardless of what they do to you”

          That sort of principle might be very harmfull, to anyone holding it. Most of the world operates on mere: What is harmfull to you do not do it to others. That is the logic obvious to us all who have a conscience and act on reason as stated by many ancient philosophers from Laoze and Confugius to Buddha and Zoroaster, and alledgedly even Jesus, but in reality it is just a natural survival mechanism of the social species. A guinea pig is just as aware of this as are most humans. Not much, but enough to live by it so that the social group and it’s members benefits of it. The final part in your suggestion, “regardless of what they do to you” leads to oppression by those who do not care to live by the first part of the principle. Of that we have ample examples throughout history. Do we not?

          • BIGFOOT says:

            You said: A god that could save all, but chooses to save only those who abandon reason to believe a one myth over all the others. A choice done mostly by people only according to their cultural heritage. This is akin to racism.

            Christ call all people to be like him, in this world, so that they may inherited a better world. You may not take that as truth, but the peculiar state of the world, with a being who has the potentiality of being an angel and a demon, leads one to conclude that there should also exists another extremist state of consciousness. But for those who buy the notion that there is only one plane of existence, it’s not possible to convince them there is a possibility of a better world hidden in us. Christ is creating a New World, for people who choose to make the world a better world, by being Christ Like. So, it’s not a matter of being racist.

            The Hegelian dialectic does no such things as you would suggest……..
            Hah! You really need to get an update of today’s world reality. I have seen it work on a personal level. Hegelian dialectics work very well even with couple, and family members. If it has not happened to you, you have not been observant. Been there, saw it work, and figured it out. If it can therefore work on a personal level, why not on a community level? Why not on a national level? Why not on a global level? But as long as you are not willing to entertain the possibility that you are wrong on many issues and then go out to look for answers, whatever to embrace becomes only your subjective version of true reality.
            You said; For a reasonable man to fear any particular god, there should first be evidence of this god even existing.

            A thing does not need to exist for it to be fear. So, gods do not need to exist for them to be feared. Neither do fear need have to come from imaginary gods. Just the way a person can think himself into illness, others have the capacity to have pervasive influence such that they live in fear of the unknown, just like those who live in fear of unknown and unproven gods. So, fear is a weapon used on people whether they believe in gods or not.
            It’s not gods that impose their will on mean, but men who impose their will on others by claiming “appointment by gods as their representatives” But the living God who seeks you to know Him, needs you to know him in order to save yourself from manipulation by men.
            As for you last argument, looks like you are more of a supporter of “Survival for the fittest” rendering what make us human “ A Reasoning Being” totally irrelevant

  6. 500Q,

    Since the holidays have arrived I have a bit more time to catch-up with blogs I enjoy and which challenge me to think and ask questions. Your blog is certainly one of those and I LOVE the topics (like this one) you tackle! Bravo! Much applause to you. Curiousity, examination, re-examination are critical for a civilization to progress and SURVIVE in a cosmos that is ever changing daily. Actually changing every second on atomic scales and mega macro scales. Which brings me to my personal thoughts on a career in prophecy.

    After three years of seminary at a PCA-affiliated campus, nine years of a highly active pro-evangelistic ministry and leadership in my former PCA church, then married to a highly active charismatic wife and her enmeshed parents (indirectly) —her father a licensed minister of now 50+ years… all of us hardcore biblical fundamentalist, i.e. the Holy Word is the direct infallible truth of existence and any hope of true salvation… (laughing absolutely permitted here)… like you 500Q, my curiosity would never go away; would never just DIE for the sack of “faith”. Prophecy, I now realize, is just another form of predicting, of gambling, and the hope/faith that you’re right; that you are on the winning side. And I don’t see anything particularly inhumane with that career. Apparently weathermen and women make a decent living at it. Las Vegas and several other tourist cities host popular poker tournaments, offering thousands and millions in winning. Bookies make a decent living on all sports. Why is it sustainable? Because for the most part those “predictors” will be statistically correct sometimes, and incorrect sometimes. And if they are INcorrect, there’s always tomorrow or next season for those risk-takers and their pundits!

    Hence, that’s why it is very smart to predict a second-coming…one can always tweak (reinterpret) the prediction(s)! Why can one always retweak? Because it’s not rocket science to figure out or proclaim that this life, this world, this Universe/Multiverse is always, always changing—some of it positive for us inhabitants and equally some of it negative for us inhabitants. Not to be disrespectful to career-predictors, but Duh. Statistically speaking, if you do it long enough in various ways, you’re eventually going to get it right, or partially right. And those Jewish and Christian story-tellers had all sorts of time (and authority) to tweak their predictions for the less-educated masses: higher education was socially accepted as a “divine” benefit for leaders and scribes in pre-Antiquity and Antiquity.

    So why all the hooplah for these ancient proclaimations? Ahh, the real issue; the real controversy!

    I’ll sum up my answer this way: Doom-sayers always have chips on their shoulders. That chip(s) is almost always about social inequality and its injustice (or justice) that accompany’s it. Same dance, different song. Human well-being. What defines well-being? What defines it in this life or the next? WHO defines it? Remarkably, science (more precisely Quantum Physics) is unveiling things like Entanglement, Unified Field, and other dimensional simultaneous existence—and guess what, it isn’t scary! It’s exciting! Where’s the doom?

    I’d wager that those prophets (and their followers) would’ve NEVER wagered that 5,000 –2,000 years later we’d all still be here, confronting the exact same issues but also progressing past (way past?) many/most social injustices they dealt with, and now—due to human evolution and non-stop questioning, curiosity, examination, re-examination, failures, and successes (much involving death)—we are not only putting men on the Moon but because of remarkable advances physics and mathematics are landing probes on MOVING asteroids, mankind is truly understanding the atomic & macro cosmos and how it works, or to put it another way, the inner intimate workings of God or His/Her creation? Humans have fortunately come a long long way. We will continue to progress and survive just fine as long as we always question, always examine and re-examine, and do the homework no matter how long, how exhausting (or opposed by others) the encounters.

    With each passing year and decade, antiquated religious myths become less and less relevant as we learn (easy or hard painful ways) the mechanics of existence.

    But that’s just my personal perception, huh? 😉 Fabulous post 500Q! Thank you!

    • Thanks Professor Taboo.

      Though in defense of weathermen and women, they typically don’t ask us to worship them or their gods just because they were able to accurately predict that chance of showers on Thursday. As long as prognosticators are trying to base their predictions on past evidence, and not supernatural revelations, that’s okay with me. 🙂

      500Q

      • Indeed 500Q. And in defense of paranormal prognosticators, some of them have a “gift” that is slowly being understood by science, e.g. psychics with successful track records of closed murder cases. Fortunately, that gift is not at all exclusive to one group or belief system…which runs contrary to the Abrahamic control-systems or tenets. Revelations in that paranormal context I embrace for secular reasons because some (most?) fit nicely within many Quantum theories and mechanics. And as I believe your blog M.O. conveys, it is very, very wise to examine and re-examine things thoroughly, allowing the data/evidence to paint the real picture while also allowing for later revisions — the opposiite of canonical. I’m okay with change, even drastic change; it is often a necessary humbling. 🙂

        Again, well done and thank you.

  7. Lexie says:

    You need to read at least that entire chapter to realize this is not a messianic prophecy. God Himself is talking about coming down to take up His throne and rule over us from earth. He is simply stating that he is so humble that we will see him riding on a donkey’s colt. Zechariah does talk about the messiah, but that is not who he is talking about there.

    Also, if you read the rest of Zechariah, you find that the messiah was eagerly accepted by the people without having to show them signs and miracles and would be one who encourages all Jews to know and observe the Torah. If you read other books in the “old testament”, you find that God focuses very heavily on Torah observance.

    Jesus is not the prophesied messiah.

    • autumnd85 says:

      Strong evidence founded throughout both the new testament and the old testament would have to be ignored to claim this accusation as true. Zechariah was the one who fortold the story of the betrayal of Judas for the sum of money which did take place before Jesus’s crucifixion. Also his allusions to the coming of Jesus which happens in the new testament. There is many other evidences you’d have to ignore in both testaments for your accusation, but I will leave it at this unless I need to point out more.

    • Hi Lexie,

      My assumption is that it was always God’s intention to work through a future king to unite his people, defeat Israel’s enemies, and establish God’s reign through his chosen people (but God wouldn’t appear in any sort of physical manifestation). Are you suggesting that God would be on earth in some sort of visible/physical form??

      500Q

  8. autumnd85 says:

    Have you really proved the Bible to be wrong or have you become deceived by your own way of thinking (Proverbs 21:1 “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.”) ? You seem to believe you truly have all the correct answers concerning Jesus’s statements or accusations go. You point out the Bibles supposed mistakes form fitting the words from verses to back up your claims just like other skeptics do. You explain it can mean this or it can mean that and if you choose to doubt the Bible believing God is deceiving its clear you would think what you want to think accepting opposition instead of understanding and accepting it means other than what YOU think. You also seem so eager to convince your doubtful answers and unsatisfied with knowledge other than your own and that which only misleads others from Jesus. It also seems you seek and advise answers other than Gods, which can’t deny provides many problems with one being there isn’t enough evidence to prove evolution is indeed a fact, two being evolutionist have made many mistakes and three being there is so much proof, facts founded or evidence pointing to Creator of the Bible that one would have to deny it in order to believe the “other”. Yet, after claiming to have been a Christian with faith, you so easily try to discredit and disprove the Bible or Jesus accepting evolution in His place. Is it true one can honestly be a christian with faith walking away from it? Or is it true one never really had faith with doubt existing within him all along?

    • Hi autumnd85 ,

      “Have you really proved the Bible to be wrong…”

      Yes.

      • autumnd85 says:

        I stated what you purposed to the public and it isn’t proving the bible is wrong, but is clear you do not allow understanding for yourself, which is important with scripture. You would also have to deny all the proof pointing to God of the Bible. Than, Jesus is mentioned by the characters in the old testament which is hundreds plus years before he is born. Despite all the characters and seperation of time, Gods character does not change if you consider reviewing the entire book. Prophecies came to life and it would make perfect sense that since Jesus was from the Father, but was also in the flesh that he would speak from both his diviness and humanity. It is not deceiving to tell the world that only the Father knows of the end times since He was in the flesh with only the Father being divine. I can go on and on, but the point is you do not seem to understand. You also choose to ignore the rest of my first comment but tanks for at least replying.

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