6. How could God or the Universe just always exist?

Whether we say the Universe has always existed, or God has always existed, we have the same problem: something has had to exist for all “time” (or had the potential to come into existence).

The believer says it is God who has always existed, while the materialist/atheist says that it is the stuff that makes up our Universe, but which explanation is most reasonable?

God vs. the Universe

This is a very difficult question, because there’s still much we don’t know. While there are still gaps in our knowledge, there are a number of factors that might lead us to conclude that it is the Universe (in some form) that is more likely to have always “just existed.”

1.  The Universe exists.

This should probably go without saying, but we can directly observe our Universe, we cannot directly observe God. This certainly doesn’t disprove God, but it is a good place to start.

We can pick up a rock and say, “Hey, look! I found a part of the Universe!” We cannot go into a church and say, “Hey, look! I found God!” (Well, we can… but you know what I mean.)

If we have to identify something that has always existed, it seems more reasonable to begin with something that has been shown to exist, than something we cannot confirm.

2.  The Universe is far less complex than God.

If something were to “just exist” without cause, a simple thing seems more likely than something with a high degree of complexity.

A God would require an incredible amount of complexity, considering its need to store, retrieve, comprehend, and create. This God would have to know how to bring matter into existence, and intentionally shape that matter into living things. It would need either need to be self-taught, or somehow “just know” all things without ever being educated. 

By comparison, energy and particles are pretty dumb. They don’t begin with a high degree of complexity, and must rely on natural laws, chance probabilities, and selection to begin to form any sort of true complexity.

3.  The Universe is often wasteful and disorderly.

There is much waste and disorder in the Universe. Why would God carefully design hundreds of billions of galaxies if he only needed one? (We didn’t even know until recently that these other galaxies existed!) Why design entire galaxies, and then crash them into one another? Why make space so deadly for humans? Or place objects so far away that there is no hope of our ever reaching them? Why pelt random moons and planets with space-debris? Is there a reason for this kind of design? Is it intelligent? Or is it random? Nature’s behavior is wasteful, unguided, indifferent, and lacks the thoughtfulness one would expect from an intelligent designer.

4.  The Universe would not have to create something from nothing.

If something must always exist, there is one less variable in saying the Universe has always existed (in some shape or form) than saying it was created from nothing.

Sure, we could add a God to the equation, but then we also have to go about proving that non-material life can exist, and can think, and have knowledge, and create matter from nothing. Why not just say that the what exists is what exists?

The theist has to accept:

  1. Supernatural spiritual beings can exist.
  2. Spiritual beings can exist eternally without cause.
  3. Spiritual beings can create new matter and energy from nothing.
  4. Spiritual beings can exist outside of space and time.
  5. Spiritual beings can store, retrieve, and creatively process information.
  6. Spiritual beings are constantly learning, or are able to somehow have knowledge without ever being educated.
  7. Spiritual beings have needs or emotions that lead them to create things.

The materialist must accept:

  1. Matter and/or energy has always existed (in some form or another), and occasionally give rise to more complex things.


Because our knowledge is limited, we can only speculate about whether it is God or the Universe that has always existed. Both ideas seem unusual, but in order for us to exist, one must be true.

I can hold a rock in one hand, and while I may not know where it came from, it’s difficult to imagine a time when each of its atoms simply did not exist. If I followed all of its atoms back in time, would I ever reach a time when all of its particles simply didn’t exist? In any form?

In the other hand, I can imagine I’m holding God. I don’t know if he’s really there, and he looks suspiciously like nothing. It’s difficult to imagine that he is there, and that he has always existed, and that he even created the rock in my other hand… out of sheer will.

What I do know is that the rock exists now. Its very existence testifies to the fact that it can exist, it does exist, and it’s possible that it has always existed. The number of variables that must be true in order for the rock to “just exist” are certainly no more than the number required for a god to “just exist.” There will always be far more variables required for an invisible, intelligent, eternal God to create something, than for that thing to have just always existed, in some form, on its own.

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56 Responses to 6. How could God or the Universe just always exist?

  1. Anonymous says:

    but if he has always existed, how long was it before he created the earth? it couldn’t have been forever because we wouldn’t exist, it still just doesn’t make sense to me, but I’m sure ill understand in the end =3

    • Great point.

      There’s actually a term for the problem of having infinite time before something happens, though it escapes me at the moment (maybe someone else knows).

      But I agree, with either God or the Universe, you can’t have an infinite amount of time before x happens, or you’d never arrive at x. There is still so much we don’t know.

      But we run into the same kind of problems with “eternity in heaven.” For example, if you die tomorrow and go to heaven, there will be a point in time at which you enter heaven. You’re not there right now, but you will be there tomorrow. So imagine there is currently a video camera in heaven that is always recording. When you get there tomorrow, you can rewind the video and see your arrival, and the arrival of all those who came before you. Eventually you would rewind to when God was creating the Universe, and then when He was planning it, and creating angels, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. But you would keep rewinding forever, and you’d never actually arrive at a time when things begin moving forward. There is an infinite amount of time that exists before your arrival.

      Dealing with the problem of infinity messes with my head. You end up having to suggest pretty crazy things… like maybe we’re all stuck in some infinite loop where everything is happening all at once, all the time, and over and over again. On the up side, we all get to live forever, but on the down side, we won’t remember having done it before. See you on the next go-round! 😉

  2. Anonymous says:

    I’m confused…don’t all scientists believe in the big bang? So are you suggesting that some kind of eternal material existed before time and matter, that created the big bang and thus the universe? How can a material exist before matter exists? I know it’s hard to imagine a god let alone an eternal god, but what is the other option?

    • Yes, most do believe in the big bang, though not all. But most scientists today (or those who think about this stuff) also believe that there was something else before the big bang, though we don’t know what form it took. The Big Bang may have been the end of something else, or there may be a great number of other universes, or unknown dimensions; I even heard one hypothesis that suggested our Universe was spewed out of a gigantic black hole! We just don’t know (yet).

      But mankind is really just at the forefront of this stuff, and it will take some time to get answers to these difficult questions. All I’m proposing is that if our only choices are an eternal God or an eternal Universe, the eternal Universe seems like the most reasonable choice, because we don’t know if supernatural beings are even real, and their requirements (power and intelligence) are a lot more demanding than what is required for a thoughtless Universe.

      • jacob says:

        The universe is running down, and something that is running down must have started at some point. The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe is running out of usable energy and if you doubt this, look in the mirror (you’re aging and running down just like everything else).
        The universe is expanding. This was confirmed through the Hubble telescope many years ago, and it is interesting to note that the universe is expanding from a single point, meaning the entire universe could be contracted back into a single point. Also, note that the universe is not expanding into space, but space itself is expanding.
        The radiation echo was discovered by Bell Labs scientists in 1965. What is it? It is the heat afterglow from the Big Bang. Its discovery dealt a death blow to any theory of the universe being in a steady state because it shows instead that the universe exploded.
        Galaxy Seeds. Scientists believe that, if the Big Bang is true (first, there was nothing, then, BANG, something came into being), then temperature “ripples” should exist in space, and it would be these ripples that enabled matter to collect into galaxies. To discover whether these ripples exist, the Cosmic Background Explorer – COBE – was launched in 1989 to find them, with the findings being released in 1992. What COBE found was perfect/precise ripples that, sure enough, enable galaxies to form. So critical and spectacular was this finding that the NASA lead for COBE, said, “If you’re religious, it’s like looking at God.”
        Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity means that the universe had a beginning and was not eternal as he had previously believed (Einstein was originally a pantheist). His theory proved that the universe is not a cause, but instead one big effect—something brought it into existence. Einstein disliked his end result so much that he introduced a “fudge factor” into his theory that allowed for an eternal universe. But there was only one problem. His fudge factor required a division by zero in his calculations—a mathematical error any good math student knows not to make. When discovered by other mathematicians, Einstein admitted his error calling it “the greatest blunder of my life.” After his acknowledgment, and upon confirming further research that showed the universe expanding just as his theory of relativity predicted, Einstein bowed to the fact that the universe is not eternal and said that he wanted “to know how God created the world.”
        Further, it should be understood that every effect must resemble its cause. This is because, simply put, you cannot give what you do not have, so it is impossible for an effect to possess something its originating cause did not have. That being the case, how can one believe that an impersonal, amoral, purposeless, and meaningless universe accidentally created beings that are full of personality, morals, meaning, and purpose? Only mind can create mind. In the end it is either matter before mind or mind before matter, and all scientific, philosophical, and reasonable evidence points to the latter.
        In conclusion, we find that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible states, and that a Cause must exist that resembles all we know today. As Lord Kelvin, a British scientist once said, “If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”

        • Rod Schmidt says:

          Just a remember. We are always talking, even Einstein, about the Observable Universe. There’s a possibility that the universe we know, is just part of a Bigger universe. We have then the Oscilatory model, which proposes that the Universe Expand and Collapses. I know that the universe is expanding faster, but the same force that is making it expand faster could stop or even reverse at some point. We don’t know, but we can’t just say that because we don’t know, there must be a creator.

      • jacob says:

        Many scientists had originally thought that the universe might be infinite and eternal. However, there was a major problem with the theory. If the universe were infinite, the amount of light falling on the earth would also be infinite (assuming an approximately uniform density of galaxies throughout the universe. The reason for this is that the volume of the universe increases 8-fold with doubling of distance, while the decrease of light is only 4-fold with the doubling of the distance. The result is that the amount of light falling in the earth would double every time the size of the universe is doubled. Therefore, if the universe were infinite, we would not expect the sky to be dark at night. Since the night sky is dark, we know that the universe could not be infinite.

  3. Elmer says:

    If our 2 choices are God vs Universe isnt God more logical due to the many unexplainable phenomenons whether it be people giving testimonies about their house being haunted or possession, or miracles obtained by prayer,, and countless other things. So doesnt their have to be a God for these supernatural things to happen ?

    • Hi Elmer,

      There are certainly many reasons to believe in God, but upon closer investigation, these things often don’t pan out.

      If things like miracles DID happen in response to prayer, we would be able to detect them and study them, and figure out which prayers to which gods were the most effective. We’ve spent millions studying the effects of prayer, and so far (in the largest studies), prayer yields no detectable result. We hear lots of stories, but it’s difficult to prove causation. I think it’s probably more likely that EVERYONE prays when they’re really sick, and those who recover then talk about it. Even with faith healers like Benny Hinn and Kathryn Coleman, when third parties follow up on alleged healings, they usually find that no significant miracles have occurred. (If they did, the AMA and insurance companies would start encouraging faith healing and prayer as worthwhile treatments.)

      I’ve yet to see a haunted house where ghosts regularly did anything that could be empirically studied and proven. For example, if they could levitate an object on a regular basis so skeptics and scientists could investigate, we might be able to prove they actually exist. I think these stories are about as credible as bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and alien abduction stories.

      And as for possessions, I think this is more of a psychological response; people acting the way they’re expected to act (and we see this in other areas as well). Today, when someone comes into the ER acting possessed, we no longer call a priest to exercise their demons, we diagnose the problem and treat it accordingly. Because strangely, these demons often respond very well to drugs.

      And there are many other reasons we believe, hundreds of them, and that’s why I take the time to try and investigate them, to see if there’s any truth to them.

      Have a good day,

      • Jesus Freak says:

        Many times when nothing is happening when you pray it is because of lack of faith. There actually has been a “Haunted House” it is just a house infested with demons. That’s the funny thing about all of this, it is supernatural, meaning above the natural.

        • We could likewise reason that when we pray to Zeus and he answers, it’s because he exists, and when he doesn’t answer, it’s because his answer is “No” or because of our lack of faith. You see the problem with reasoning like this?

          Has there actually been a “Haunted House”? One that the scientific community and skeptics now accept as proof that spirits exist? If so, I’d like to see it. There are many reasons for haunted house stories: leaking gas lines, mental illness, power of suggestion, people looking for attention, intentional hoaxes, etc. I’ve seen a number of these stories (we got into a conversation about one of them under question #19) and haven’t been convinced by any of them. We see the same thing with UFO and abduction stories; lots of fun spooky stories, but little actual proof when you get right down to it. If spirits do exist, evil or otherwise, don’t you think scientists and skeptics would’ve developed a test for them and proven it by now?

          If you believe demons have power, try asking one to do something for you, like levitating an object (if God has reservations about doing such a thing, perhaps demons can). If it works, call James Randi, he has over a million dollars in the bank reserved for the first person who can prove spirits or spiritual powers actually exist.

          Take care. 🙂

          • Anonymous says:

            One does not simply ask a Demon to do something. So much intellect and logic all making sense in your timing. God does not operate this way. You know this I’m sure from reading many of your words…. And there are many.
            And uhhh just plain folk simplicity here but wouldn’t a demon who answered and levitated whatever you ask… Prove the spirit world is among us also. Lineing up with Gods word perfectly. Why would Satan help calm the confusion. That’s not his curse.
            Just commenting sincerely on your ( ) areas.

      • Anonymous says:

        One does not simply ask a Demon to do something. So much intellect and logic all making sense in your timing. God does not operate this way. You know this I’m sure from reading many of your words…. And there are many.
        And uhhh just plain folk simplicity here but wouldn’t a demon who answered and levitated whatever you ask… Prove the spirit world is among us also. Lineing up with Gods word perfectly. Why would Satan help calm the confusion. That’s not his curse.
        Just commenting sincerely on your ( ) areas.

        • Anonymous says:

          So let me get this straight… God wants humans to believe he exists purely on faith without evidence, satan wants to usurp god’s authority and supernatural powers, so a great way for satan to do that would be to provide evidence to those humans that he has supernatural powers too, but doesn’t do it because it would somehow make humans believe in God – who himself doesn’t provide evidence of his supernatural powers?

          One would think devils and demons would be eager to prove their supernatural prowess, while their opposition refuses to do so because he’s too hung up on the “free will” thing he gave to humans. Rather than satan “calming” the confusion, it’s actually the best way to stir it up!!! Imagine a bunch of demons levitating cars for people… Meanwhile God only help others find their car keys (some “miracle” THAT is by comparison!)

      • No says:

        God is a mysterious being, you cannot study him mathematically or scientifically, because you will never understand him or his ways. You cannot investigate prayer or how it works because it is too much for our minds to process right now. Someday we will know everything though, but that time has not yet come. God definitely does exist, and if he doesn’t answer or respond to a prayer, there is a reason that may be for the better. Everything he does is for a reason.

    • Caleb says:

      If there was suddenly a ten foot box next to your bed when you woke up this morning, and you proceeded to ask me how it got there, and I told you I had no idea, that would be the scenario you are somewhat posing.

      Lack of evidence isn’t evidence itself. That’s a pretty core concept of basic logic.

  4. Nothingness is undefinable otherwise it would be something. Therefore the big bang did not come from nothing as Hawkings proposes. Nothingness cannot even be an idea nor a word, it is a mental delusion. Infinity also is undefinable otherwise it would be finite. Another mental delusion. We use these words but have no idea what we are talking about. Something must exist because nothingness is not even an idea. If the something is God then at least there is a way we can get all explanations. If the something is dumb material there is no hope.

    • We can get all explanations… expect for explaining why God himself exists.

      • Sue says:

        If the Universe has an origin so does God and just saying “because the Bible says so” isn’t the answer to that question. Think as Christians (and I am one) it’s the one question that could shake faith greatly and its the main reason we dare not to ask it. If thinking makes you feel a little nervous, no? We don’t avoid the question because there is no answer because it the one question that could destroy faith.

    • Tim says:

      ”If the something is God then at least there is a way we can get all explanations.”
      Hi John,
      I don’t see how we, living in (and having access to) a tiny spot in the vast space and galaxy systems, are going to discover the origin of things. Perhaps that’s why the god-men created a God – to expalin the unexplainable. But it’s quite entertaining to speculate these things.

    • Anonymous says:

      Saying “God did it” doesn’t explain ANYTHING. God has no explanatory power, it is just a shorter way of saying “I don’t know how or why something is the way it is, it’s just beyond my ability to comprehend or understand.”

      It’s purely an argument from ignorance.

  5. Sal says:

    Isn’t it possible that in the beginning before the “Big Bang” there was nothing? Isn’t it possible that gazillions of years ago, there wasn’t anything at all? That’s certainly a theory to consider. So let’s consider it. If there ever was absolutely nothing, there would still be absolutely nothing today. Since there is something (you, for example), that means that absolutely nothing never existed. If it ever did, you wouldn’t be here reading this right now. Absolutely nothing would still be here. Something can’t come into existence from nothing. Only nothings can come from nothing. From nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence.

    I believe absolutely nothing never ever existed. Again if it had, there would still be Absolutely Nothing now. But Something else exists, you do, Since Absolutely Nothing never existed, there was always a time when there was something in existence. I hope you see my point: Once you get it, you can rationally rule out that nothing never ever existed, and that there was always something. But what was that something? But what was the nature of that something that preceded our universe that we mistakenly thought was nothing? Can we call this something GOD? Is god “something”? Why, yes, God is something. Then where did he come from? We can safely say that God always existed, because God is something, and we know something must always exist, because there was never a time there was nothing.

    Remember we proved that there was never a time when there was nothing. Because if there was, it will still be nothing and something can’t come from nothing. Can we now say that this “nothing is something?” YES! We know that something must always exist and we can change this nothing to a something, and that this something can be a nothing that had always existed

    Can something come from nothing? No! Not unless this nothing is something. So because we know there was never a time when there was nothing, then something came from something even when this something was nothing or God that always existed. If God always existed, then is that any different than saying that nothing always existed? No! If we label God as nothing then we know that nothing will always exist, but as soon as something comes from nothing then we have to change that nothing to something because nothing would still be nothing. Once we change that nothing to something than immediately we can place a God label on this something

    According to the Big Bang Theory at one point the universe and black space did not exist. Why at a certain point in time did we come into existence? At what point and why did it start? Did all of a sudden God woke up and decided to create the universe. Perhaps, because we know if there was ever a time there was nothing before black space there still will be nothing today. The universe can not create itself. Something can’t come from nothing. Only something can come from something. Therefore this “Nothing” had to be something that always existed. GOD

    • Hey Sal, thanks for writing.

      “Isn’t it possible that in the beginning before the “Big Bang” there was nothing?”

      Is it possible? Certainly, but it seems very unlikely considering that stuff exists now. (Though strangely, believers seem hellbent on insisting there was nothing, so they can then claim that God crated something from nothing.)

      Nothing is actually a difficult concept. It’s said that even empty space is made up of something; and things like quarks appear to pop in and out of existence, though I don’t think they are truly going anywhere or coming from nothing. I think something is happening here that we just haven’t quite understood yet.

      “I believe absolutely nothing never ever existed. Again if it had, there would still be Absolutely Nothing now.”

      I would tend to agree with you.

      “But what was the nature of that something that preceded our universe that we mistakenly thought was nothing?”

      Here’s where we part ways. I’ve never thought there was nothing, in fact, I would argue against it, so this is a “straw man” fallacy. I’ve always maintained that what exists now has always existed… in one form or another.

      “We can safely say that God always existed, because God is something, and we know something must always exist, because there was never a time there was nothing.”

      Likewise, I could just argue that we can safely say that matter and energy have always existed, because they are something, and we know something must always exist, because there was never a time there was nothing. And as I’ve pointed out above, matter seems to have a lot more going for it than the God hypothesis.

      “According to the Big Bang Theory at one point the universe and black space did not exist. Why at a certain point in time did we come into existence? At what point and why did it start?”

      Correct, the Universe did not always exist in the state it is now, and it started roughly 13.7 billion years ago. Many physicists believe that all the matter in our Universe was highly compressed. As to WHY it exploded, there are many theories about this; it may be that we are only one of countless universes, or there are large swaths of energy that occasionally make contact resulting in random explosions, or the universe may be stuck in eternal flux, expanding and collapsing, then exploding again under its own gravitational force like a supernova.

      But at no point do physicists say, we don’t yet know how it happened, so let’s just assume an invisible man did it.


      • Aaron Arber says:

        I believe the invisible man exists.
        “If something were to “just exist,” a simple thing seems more probable than an extremely complex thing.”

        First of all, you say this almost as if the something that …”were to “just exist…”” starting existing, when this something obviously always existed. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention.
        Secondly, you might want to rethink (or possibly reword?) your statement, seeing as how it sounds goofy(at least to me) if the following is considered. The universe is complex. Are you prepared to defend the idea that it is more probable for something complex to to come from something simple than it is for something complex to come from something complex?

        “I can imagine how a cell made of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen might come into existence in a potentially infinite Universe made up of those active elements. But how does intelligence always exist? From whence does its complex knowledge come?”

        Which active elements are you referring to? And where did they(and the Universe you referred to) come from? Or are you saying that you can imagine how Carbon ect. could always exist, but not God? Personally, I don’t see how it’s harder to believe complexity has always existed as opposed to simplicity, because generally, that’s not what people have a hard time swallowing. It’s the “always existed” part that is impossible to understand.

        My last couple sentences are very prone to being torn to shreds, feel free to do so. 🙂

        • Hi Aaron,

          “Are you prepared to defend the idea that it is more probable for something complex to to come from something simple than it is for something complex to come from something complex?”

          Not at all, but I think we’re moving the goalpost. I am ONLY prepared to defend the idea that the very FIRST thing to exist (or the thing that always existed) was not extremely complex.

          If, for example, someone were to seriously suggest that a human was the very first thing to pop into existence (or always exist), we might ask, “How is that possible? A human is far too complex, and requires either a designer to engineer its complexity, or some natural process by which it can grow in its complexity.”

          For the same reason we wouldn’t assume a human could exist without cause, we shouldn’t assume gods can exist without cause. But if we go ahead and assume complex things like gods can just exist without cause or design, then we can likewise assume that humans did not need a cause or a designer.

          Take care,

          • Aaron Arber says:

            If you are going argue that the something which has always existed is not “extremely complex”, then you must also say that it is indeed easier for you to believe that a complex thing came from a “simple thing” (quote below) than it is to believe that a complex thing came from an “extremely complex thing” (quote below).

            “If something were to “just exist,” a simple thing seems more probable than an extremely complex thing.”

    • No says:

      Good job but that was confusing😂

    • peg camper says:

      Sal: You say “something would always have had to be in existence”. If so, why put the name of “god” as that “something?” If a magical, all-powerful, all-knowing being could have always been in existence, why could not the universe have always been in existence?

  6. Mark says:

    Seems like everyone is missing the evidence that God exist….He sent his only Son to die on the cross and then was resurrected from the dead, no one can deny this…Too bad we could not have been there to witness it for ourselves but there were some 500 people that did and we have the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that have all wrote in perfect unison and in detail that it happen….Are we to dismiss them and then the fact that the Old Testament gave prophesy that Jesus would come to earth and die on the cross in perfect detail to what the Old Testament foretold. Atheist detest the Bible and claim that it is a book of fairy tales, but they have not as yet been able to disprove it.

    • Howdy Mark,

      I’ve discussed several popular prophecies under previous questions, and you’re welcome to debate my findings there, but I haven’t seen one yet that I’d consider credible (much less one that proves God has always existed).

      “Too bad we could not have been there to witness it for ourselves but there were some 500 people that did…”

      Technically speaking, none of the four gospels claim that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people, they only claim that he appeared to a small handful of his own people (and the accounts vary).

      In 1 Corinthians 15:6 we read a single sentence that mentions 500 people:

      “After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.”

      Unfortunately, no other details were given about this mass gathering; we don’t know who was there, or why they gathered, or where, or what time it was, or what Jesus said or did, or how they knew it was really him. All we have is a 2,000 year old rumor that Jesus appeared at a gathering. For all we know, it may have just been a ghostly sighting at a meeting of overzealous believers, or a case of mistaken identity.

      Interestingly, not too far from where I live, there have also been over 500 “sightings” of ghosts at Sarah Winchester’s mansion. These accounts are from many different individuals, not just one person. Now, I don’t believe these many testimonials, but if we’re just going by the numbers…


  7. terry says:

    A transcendent cause is needed for something so absurd, incomprehensible, and quite frankly impossible. Essentially you believe in one vast perpetual motion machine, which is not an acceptable idea in science.

    • Hi Terry.

      “A transcendent cause is needed for something so absurd, incomprehensible, and quite frankly impossible.”

      One could also reason that a transcendent (thinking) being is equally absurd, incomprehensible, and impossible, if not more so (especially compared to simple atoms).

      “Essentially you believe in one vast perpetual motion machine, which is not an acceptable idea in science.”

      I have to respectfully disagree.

      It’s true that large objects are affected by gravity and friction, which causes them to slow over time, preventing the creation of any (large) perpetual motion machines. But conservation of energy also assures us that this energy is never “lost,” it is just transferred somewhere else. Because energy is never created nor destroyed, we can assume it’s always been around in some way, shape, or form.

      At the the atomic level, where atoms are free of gravity, they will continue spinning forever, like tiny perpetual motion machines, unless acted upon by another object. But even in that case, they will transfer some or all of their energy to the other object, and none will ever be lost.

      And who knows, it may be that whenever a large number of these atoms are drawn together through a force like gravity, they respond to the pressure by igniting a chain reaction that causes an explosion of energy, like a supernova… or an even bigger bang.


  8. Marius de Jess says:

    Well, 500 questions,

    I would like to read (1)what is your concept of God, and (2) what is your concept of the universe, and (3) what is your concept of nothing, (4) and of something, and (5) what is the status of existence, is it the default status, or (6) is nothing the default status and nothing changes itself into something, and (7) what is your concept of infinity?

    But first, give me your concept of God.

    • Hi Marius de Jess,

      I’ll do my best, but I reserve the right to change my answers should more information becomes available to me. 🙂

      (1) My concept of God is that he is the one said to be responsible for creating all that exists, though he himself is exempt from requiring creation.

      (2) My concept of the universe is that it exists, though I can’t speculate as to exactly what it is, but it’s the stuff that we and everything else are made of.

      (3) My concept of absolute nothing would be the absence of absolutely anything, but I can’t be certain if such a state exists anywhere. Even empty space is said to consist of something.

      (4) Something, would be all the substances that can be observed and measured, but would also include all those things that exist but we have no way to measure them (yet).

      (5) I assume that what exists has always existed by default, as a brute fact. I assume this because it seems unlikely to me that something should come from absolute nothing. There are far fewer variables in saying “What exists has always existed”, than to say “An invisible intelligent God always existed, and then created something from absolute nothing.”

      (6) Again, I would say something is the default status. Something may come from “nothing,” but not “absolute nothing” (should such a thing even exist).

      (7) Time is relative, so there may have been “times” when “time” did not exist. But time may have the potential to exist, even if it isn’t always present. But I might go so far as to say that any matter you observe has infinitely existed in one form or another.

      But these are VERY abstract concepts, and in my experience it is difficult to build a compelling argument on any concept that is not really well understood.


  9. consultgtf says:

    Fear of God is missing. that is reason for our sufferings!
    Many of us have been brought up in a Christian climate where the fear of God is missing. We like to have a nice comfortable God but not His fearful awesome side. We are thought always, whenever we go back and say sorry to God, He will forgive and accept? Missing word is “REPENT” AND ASK FORGIVENESS! Also, we cannot keep sinning throughout our life and then ask for FORGIVENESS on our death bed. We should be uncomfortable with our sin from the day ONE. It is high time we became uncomfortable with our sin.

    HIS Holiness the presence of God should make us all tremble as we become aware of our condition! But we like God, who is comfortable and palatable like a friend we can introduce to our friends and neighbours. We like God who is always loving, gracious, merciful, forgiving, tender, gentle, comfortable, friendly etc…
    God is inspiring, an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, or fear, Holy, a judge, just, to be feared as we are sinners, we sin as we are not able to CONTROL OUR SENSES?!

    Where does the true fear of God come from? It CAN ONLY come from the acknowledging of our own sinfulness and a sense of the presence of God every where and at all time, BUT AT OUR YOUNGER AGE itself.

    Because, Church has now become a place of informal; a place where THE NEW age God continuously telling us, “Fear not”; our relationship with God has become a simple belief. We do not experience God’s burning presence in our lives. I am suggesting that the tame God of relevance be replaced by the THEE GOD, whose very presence SHATTERS our egos into dust, burns our sin into ashes, and strips us naked to reveal the real person within. The Church needs to become a gloriously dangerous place where nothing is safe in God’s presence except us. Nothing–including our plans, our agendas, our priorities, our politics, our money, our security, our comfort, our possessions, our needs.”
    God has very clearly said, I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    “You shall have no other gods before Me.
    “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

    • Sue says:

      If God can’t take our questions he’s not equipped to take our worship. God wants honestly, and true worship from us. Good for you if you have never questioned our wanted to know the origins of god and the universe. You must truly be a saint but for the rest of us, we respect God enough to go to him as children and ask these questions.

      • consultgtf says:

        Who told you, that God can’t take YOUR question, Who EQUIPPED YOU to Judge GOD himself?
        God never told you to be honest or wanted worship from You Especially,
        If I was true child of MY FATHER, I will never question HIM, instead help HIS kingdom to prevail on this illusion world.

  10. Josh says:

    I agree with you completely 500 Q. I grew up in a christian family and was raised as a christian. Though we were not the most religious by far, I was at least taught to believe in a god who came from nothing and could create something from nothing. I was uncomfortable with this for many reasons, some of which you state above. I couldn’t agree that there was always something out there that knew everything, was everywhere, and could create anything from nothing. I hadn’t liked this explanation even from a young age.

    Still, I followed this religion mainly for the appearance of being a Christian because I knew it was what my parents wanted from me. I had known that asking questions about God and his creation would spark some distrust of my faith so I just followed along. As I grew older and knowledge became much more accessible to me, I couldn’t convince myself not to question him. I still couldn’t turn to my parents but I turned to the internet, I observed others a bit but mainly thought of it by myself with my limited knowledge. I came to the conclusion that the Big Bang was much more understandable than a god that no one can prove exists.

    In fact, I just learned of the conservation of energy and it also helped me along my way of understanding many things, including how a god seems more and more out of the question. Not only that, but I have now completed a world history course and I loved it. I loved it because the objective of world history is to provide the history of our past as humanity and even before. Not only that, but to provide it in an unbiased view. In our past are gods, many gods. Not limiting itself to one belief but to all beliefs and observing them all and what is around them.

    Though the previous paragraph may have seemed off topic, this one will probably pull my point together so please continue to bear with me. We observed and spectated religions across the world and throughout time. We came to our own conclusions about them. World history as a subject can’t believe in a religion and it can’t confirm or deny one either. Instead, it allows us to find it and make of it what we will. During this course we made connections and thought it out fairly well; we saw how the environments influenced the behaviors and personalities of gods, we saw how people used gods to understand what they didn’t know, we saw how they hid behind gods to justify themselves, and we also saw how and why gods were made.

    That last part might seems a little offensive to anyone with a belief but please take it as my personal view. Anyways, people made gods to explain what they couldn’t and to give hope because people are always afraid. Afraid of death, responsibilities, other people, and almost anything else important or unimportant you can think of. Gods were made, in my opinion, as cushions to soften the blow of our existence, and to give reason to it as well. As time and people progress, so does our understanding of our surroundings, people, and many other things. While we may still be children playing with matches in respect to our total knowledge, we ARE learning and progressing. As we start to understand more and more, we need gods less and less to cushion that blow and lighten our fears.

    As I came to terms with this, I was left without god as our starting point. It required a lot of thought to replace him. What had started everything, where did those things come from? Though this was not all answered with out current knowledge and science, enough was that I could agree with what I do now. Still, I had led a life without god or knowledge for a bit of time and it was slightly startling in how depressing it was. Either way, I came to the conclusion you have. I searched and I learned and I progressed and changed. I learned of the Big Bang Theory and I learned of many other things, expanding my knowledge with a thirst I hadn’t really felt before; all of it trying to come up with this answer.

    I understand the Big Bang Theory and I understand the possibilities that have been provided by the research of many others. I also understand that neither the Big Bang Theory or any of the others are really complete and that it is unlikely that they will be completed any time soon. Still, I was left with only one real possibility; either God had always existed or the universe had. I had to research a bit till I could understand anything at all about the universe but it was much easier to understand than god, it was much easier to believe, and it makes things simpler. In fact, it requires almost no belief. Nothing I say can disprove the fact that the universe, right now, exists. Whether it was always like this, why it changed if it did, or any other questions of the like are, for now, beyond me. Yet I can still claim with that limited knowledge that the universe is much more likely.

    I don’t need anyone else to agree with me, this is something I found on my own, I reasoned by myself, and something I have dedicated myself to so far. My opinions may change later on (in fact, there is a nice christian person I am acquainted with that loves to have discussions with me, trying to answer my questions and sway me to his faith.) but I am, right now prepared to defend this and accept the consequences of my decision if a god really does exist.

    * Just something I want to clarify. I had read, previously in the discussions, someone who seemed upset write how atheists detest the bible. I think this is very inaccurate. Technically, I can be considered an atheist and I have a few friends who are as well but none of us detest the bible. I can assure you that I and at least a few of my friends respect the religion itself and though we don’t believe it, can understand why you would and respect your decision for doing so. In return, please respect ours for not doing so.*

    It took me a while to come up with the conclusion here, sorry. Also, I am not saying that our experiences are similar in any way, just that we came up with the same results. If you find anything in my story here that you don’t agree with, please don’t take it against the idea itself. Many people come up with this conclusion and though they agree on it, how they came to agree with it and why they did are more than likely completely different. It is probably the same for religion. Just because you may share the same faith with someone, doesn’t mean they came to it for the same reasons or in the same ways. On the same note, just because someone of a certain faith/belief does something wrong or undesirable or came to the faith/belief for some disagreeable reasons, doesn’t mean that the faith/belief is bad, just that the person is someone you don’t like/agree with.

    I hope my response and my take on this can help others understand my side of this. I hope that you can forgive me if you don’t agree and I also hope that you at least have something you believe in or agree with. No one I have met lives too happily without some sort of understanding.


    • Thanks Josh.

      Having the Universe be the thing that has always existed does seem to be among the simplest explanations. And knowing that matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed would certainly suggest that this has always been the case.

      I like to imagine the Universe as being in some sort of eternal state of flux. Perhaps there are many universes, or perhaps our big bang was the result of our Universe being compressed and spewed out the businesss end of a great-big black hole. Who knows! But “I don’t know” is a more honest answer than an untenable belief stated with conviction.

      Anyway, I applaud you for thinking these things through for yourself. I wish more people would, even if it leads them to conclude the truth is with Christianity… or Islam… or whatever. At least they would have a good understanding of the argument.


  11. Hi I would just like to say from reading threw your responses and the post itself you bring up some really great logical questions and answers. You also are amazing at being understanding of others believes. You also manage to study everything in a really unbiased way.

    Now onto the actual topic. You are right we do only have so much information to go off. My question is though is all the theorys just wrong? If god existed all the time or the universe existed all the time then how would it exactly do that. Looking threw all the theory’s I’v seen some interesting thoughts. One theory I saw includes the multiverse theory. Two universes collapse on each other causing either the big bang to form or god to form. The problem with this though is that how did the first universe start then? Thanks for reading and I hope you respond.

    • Thanks facelesstiger,

      “The problem with this though is that how did the first universe start then?”

      I would say the Universe is just a a brute fact. It doesn’t “start,” because it’s just always been, in one state or another. Bear in mind that even concepts about time are tricky, because time is relative, and so the universe may have existed in a state where time did not pass in the way it does for us. According to Stephen Hawking, time began with the Big Bang, and before that, there was a singularity where time did not pass (which is difficult to wrap my head around, but there you have it).

      But whether we insist that God has always existed, or the Universe (in some state), it still seems more reasonable to me to say that something has always existed (it one state or another) than that it should pop out of absolute nothingness, wholly un-caused. Assuming something HAS always existed, we can then reason that God is a more difficult proposition than the Universe itself, since God is highly complex, compared to a disorganized mess of energy, hydrogen atoms, etc.

      But it’s also possible that God could have evolved from simpler elements, just as I suspect we did. In fact, someday, even humans may go on to design new forms of life. But if God DID evolve, then he ceases to truly be “God,” and becomes more like an alien or alien race, that happened to get here first.

      In order of likelihood, I would say that it’s most likely that we evolved naturally (without divine or intelligent interference), followed by being created by highly-advanced beings (or gods) that themselves evolved without interference, followed by being created by an intelligent and immaterial God… who just exists, with no rational explanation.

      Take care,

  12. David says:

    He was before the universe having power to create all things, without effecting his power , with not one single part of his power missing this why he says, to no one shall I give my glory only he can understand everything, this why no one else could ever be God. This why no one will ever know how he came to be, only God has that understanding example if your the only who

    knows how something works , and even explaining how it works, but it is beyond their understanding they will never understand, only you . so therefore no one will ever know how he came to be ever.

  13. Kiddo says:

    God always existed…cuz how is the universe gonna be randomly there..something had to create the universe

    • Likewise, something had to create God. If you can argue that God has always existed, than others can argue the Universe has always existed. And between the two, the Universe is a less complex entity.

  14. consultgtf says:

    Sir, We are creations, with limited brain or No brain!

    If creations, I mean Humans, their organ systems, organs, tissues, cells…can be such complex! then imagine, how complex its creator will be? If you say it was created by it self, then for benefit of the generations to come,

    We… call him, Complex of Complexity as GOD! and that is why HE is still controlling your death and birth.

    Let us see if YOU humans can create a living cell in next few centuries? then a organ in few thousand years… IF POSSIBLE! No dreams, please.

  15. joe says:

    I do pray that by now you realize these doubts simply are not a matter of fact. I say this because every affirmation you make against God and towards naturalism can easily be flip flopped.

    1) This is a bold statement. The only thing you know for sure that exists is you. I can almost certainly guarantee the knowledge you have of the Bible/God and the knowledge you have of the universe were obtained in exactly the same way (via word of mouth and reading). You cannot see, taste, smell, touch, hear 99.99% of the universe yet your faith in naturalism is so incredibly great that you decide that the .01% you can observe is enough to know the rest.

    Let us also not forget which side (naturalism/Christianity) is more willing to die for their belief.

    3. the answer here is always going to be because God wanted to and he could do it and any other answer is simply going to be speculation. It could be possible that the chaos, the vastness, the extremity of space is simply a reminder that we don’t have the ability to fully understand God. Christians don’t have to live in the box you have created here. We have hope that anything is possible. Maybe one day we will travel through space an exploration will have no limits. Only the naturalist has to accept there is no hope and that space will always just be a wasteland of death that will never be something attainable.

    4. I could not disagree more. Without God there are several more variables. Here is how I see it.

    The theist has to accept:
    God is who he is i.e “I am that I am”

    The naturalist has to accept:
    Matter is eternal
    3 dimensional space is eternal
    Somehow, one time and only one time, less matter became more matter

    You believe the rock exists because you hold it in your hand and you have enough FAITH in your senses to perceive the rock to be real. Your perception of reality is nothing more than your perception of reality. You knowing that you are actually holding that rock is no different than a lunatic in a strait jacket knowing that he was abducted by aliens.

    Peace and blessings

  16. Dantheman says:

    Thanks Consultgtf for your input, which can be summed up as “fear God or be incinerated”. HaHa, but don’t forget how much God loves you. For Real? Addressing Joe: Do you really think that the qualifier for whether God exists is the number of individuals willing to die for their belief? Jim Jones certainly convinced his flock of wishful believers that their Kool Aid was magical, didn’t he? Being willing to die for the untrue does not make something true;it makes you DEAD. The perception that a rock you are holding may be an illusion and not real can be measured. The volume,weight,shape,and texture are confirmation of its’ existence. I suppose that if none of that was enough, you could always smash the rock on your head to see if the resulting injury was real or just an illusion (joking, so don’t try this at home,HaHa). The “lunatic’s” claim that he was abducted by aliens is no less or more credible than your belief that any God exists. How can you prove that God exists but aliens don’t? Good Luck!

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