28. If someone never hears the gospel, can they still go to heaven?

The obligatory opening joke…

A missionary travels to a remote village and tells everyone about Jesus. He tells them, “If you do not accept Jesus, you will burn in hell for all eternity.” Before the missionary leaves, the tribal elder asks, “If we had never heard about this Jesus, would God have sent us all to hell?” The missionary replies, “No, I don’t suppose God would condemn you due to your ignorance,” to which the elder replied “Then why did you tell us about him!?”

The joke pokes fun of a real conundrum: it would obviously be unfair for God to condemn these people for not accepting Jesus when they’d never heard of him, but at the same time, now that they’ve heard of him, their eternal souls are put at risk.

When turning to the Bible for answer to this difficult question, we find the answers seem to contradict one another.

The ignorant are NOT punished

There are several Bible verses that suggest the ignorant are not held accountable for their sins.

If I had not come and spoken to them [the world], they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
— John 15:22

The Law brings about wrath, but where there is no Law, there also is no violation.
— Romans 4:15 

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
— Acts 17:30

But if the ignorant are excused from sin and wrath, then the first rule of Christianity should be, “Don’t talk about Christianity.” If knowledge brings with it the possibility of condemnation, then it is better to never receive that knowledge.

The ignorant are ARE punished

On the flip side, there are other verses that suggest the ignorant will be punished.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law …
— Romans 2:12 

He will punish those who do not know God  … They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.
— 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 

But if the ignorant will still “perish apart from the law” for their sins, then God comes across as unfair for punishing the ignorant.

The ignorant are are punished on a sliding scale

There are also verses that hint that judgement varies according to how much knowledge you have.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
— Luke 12:48

My brothers and sisters, not many of you should be teachers … we who teach will be judged more strictly than others.
— James 3:1 

But if more knowledge means more potential punishment, then we’re back to the first rule of Christianity: “Don’t talk about Christianity!”

While these verses appear to contradict one another, fundamentalists insist there are no contradictions, and that we should look to the larger Biblical themes to facilitate our understanding of these verses.

So how do most Christians answer this question?

Not all Christians agree, but in researching this question, I found the majority of believers siding with the idea that the ignorant are guilty of sin and are still in need of salvation.

I believe this conclusion is driven by evangelism and salvation being such strong overriding themes in the New Testament. If the ignorant are innocent, then evangelism is rather pointless, since these people will go to heaven either way. It’s only when the ignorant are guilty that evangelism becomes important.

But how can a man be guilty if he’s never heard the law?

How to make an ignorant man guilty

I think most Christians would agree that a man becomes guilty once he breaks one of God’s “natural laws.”

Natural laws are a subset of God’s Law (found in the Bible), and God has made these natural laws instinctive, by writing them on our hearts.

These natural laws speak to us as our conscience — that little Jiminy Cricket voice inside our head that says “Don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal, don’t kill, and stop touching yourself.”

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them…
— Romans 2:14-15 

And naturally, we all are guilty of breaking these natural laws.

… all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God …
— Romans 3:23 

So the “ignorant” are not truly “ignorant,” because they have God’s law written on their heart, and they are not innocent, because all have fallen short and sinned. And unfortunately, just one sin is enough to get you cast into hell forever, so salvation is of the utmost importance.

If this consensus view is true, there are some major problems with it.

Problem #1: Got makes getting into heaven more difficult for some than others

If a man is born to Christian parents in a Christian culture, and he violates one of God’s Laws, his Christian culture tells him of the consequences and provides him with a way out. He can sin a thousand times, and still be forgiven.

But if a man is born away from any Christian influence, then he is ignorant of how to obtain forgiveness for his sin. When he breaks one of God’s “natural laws,” he remains condemned, because the escape route is not as obvious.

No one comes to the Father except through me.
— John 14:6 

If it’s true that forgiveness only comes though Jesus, then this man is condemned to hell, for committing one sin. Through no fault of his own, he was born into a culture that couldn’t teach him how to obtain forgiveness.

At this point, we might be tempted to argue that God would make some sort of concession in this case, but the more we insist that the ignorant can receive forgiveness, the less urgent evangelism becomes.

Problem #2: God did not write all his laws on our hearts

Presumably, it would be just as easy for God to write his entire message on our hearts as part of it. In the same way newborns instinctively know how to suckle their mothers, or birds know how to build nests, we should instinctively know how to repent through Jesus to his Father in order to receive forgiveness.

Why write a “natural law” on our hearts, and give us the “gifts” of conscience and guilt, and then not tell us exactly how to repent? And to whom? This seems like an important detail to leave out.

Why must the answer be delivered by an external source? Missionaries wouldn’t even be necessary if God would’ve written his entire message on our hearts, and we wouldn’t have the confusion over which missionaries were the ones to believe.

Problem #3: How can we obey God’s natural laws when we’re not sure what they are?

If God has written a subset of his laws on our hearts, what exactly are they?

According to Romans 2:14-15, God’s laws are an instinctive part of our conscience that accuse us when we do wrong. So if we desired to make a list of God’s Natural Laws, we might start by looking for “instinctive” morals that most humans seem to share. Also, violating these morals should result in a guilty conscience.

Let’s imagine we performed such a study and found several behaviors that were universally viewed as immoral, things like:

  • Murder
  • Rape
  • Injuring others
  • Lying
  • Cheating
  • Stealing
  • Torture
  • Infidelity
  • Slavery
  • and downloading movies and music illegally.

If we then began promoting this list as “God’s List of Natural Laws,” I can think of a few objections we might encounter.

Firstly, did these rules need to originate with a God, or are they self-evident? All of these behaviors have observable negative consequences, or we can easily reason that we wouldn’t want others to do these things to us. If any reasonable person can understand why such behaviors would be undesirable, do we really need God to write them on our hearts?

Secondly, God’s Laws (according to the Bible) sometimes contradict God’s Natural Laws.

For example:

  • Natural law tells us that killing healthy babies is wrong, but God’s Law says it’s sometimes okay (Gen. 7:21, Exodus 12:12, Psalm 137:9).
  • Natural law tells us that owning and beating slaves is wrong, but God’s Law provides us with a how-to manual (Exodus 21).
  • Natural law tells us it’s wrong to steal and rape, but God’s Law says he may personally send men to steal from you and rape you (Zechariah 14:2).
  • Natural law also tells us it’s always wrong for a man to rape a woman, and then to force her to marry her rapist; but God’s Law says this is totally permissible (Duet. 22:28-29).

Third, feelings of guilt are often unreliable measures of right and wrong.

For example, an anorexic girl may feel guilty about eating a sandwich, but is she right? Is God using guilt as a natural way of condemning her for inappropriate behavior? Or does she feel guilty only because she did something she believed was wrong? And her mind is now wrestling with the logical contradiction? Guilt seems to stem from what we believe is wrong, and not what God says is wrong, but if God’s Natural Law really exists, should’t we only feel guilty for doing things that are actually violations of God’s law?

And finally, with regards to conscience, many early cultures once independently reached the rather natural conclusion that sun was a god. How did they all “just know” this? Did God write this message on the hearts of the Aztecs, Incas, Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus, Persians, West Africans, Celtics and others? Did God guide their conscience to this conclusion?

How can we obey God’s “natural laws” when these laws can be so misleading?

Conclusion

There is ultimately no truly satisfying Christian answer to the question of how God might deal with those who have never heard the gospel.

  • If we assume more “reached” enter heaven than “unreached,” then God is unfair for having given the unreached a more difficult test.
  • If we assume that more unreached enter heaven, then God is unfair for giving the reached a more difficult test. And evangelism becomes futile, because it results in fewer people entering heaven!
  • If we assume the exact same percentage of both will enter heaven, then evangelism is technically unnecessary (we get the same result either way), and the Bible is wrong to stress it.
  • And if we assume that everyone goes to heaven, once again, evangelism is pretty pointless, and the Bible is wrong to stress it.

But if we dare to assume that the logical conundrum only exists because Christianity is a flawed human creation, then the problem goes away. But I suspect Christians will have a problem with that solution.

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179 Responses to 28. If someone never hears the gospel, can they still go to heaven?

  1. The woman of Rev 12 is the prophet like unto Moses and Elijah Matt 17:3, Acts 3:21-23, Luke 1:17 delivering the true word John 1:1 from the wilderness to prepare a people for the Lord’s return. God our Father will not put any child of his into a hell fire no matter what their sins. It never entered the heart or mind of God to ever do such a thing Jer 7:31, Jer 19:5. The true Gospel is now delivered to the whole world http://minigoodtale.wordpress.com at a witness.

    • Hi The Good Tale,

      The two verses you cite refer to humans being offered as sacrifices, they are:

      “They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire–something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.” Jer 7:31

      They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal–something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” Jer 19:5

      While it may have never entered God’s mind to request a human sacrifice, elsewhere God is clear that humans will be punished by eternal hell fire.

      “…whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.” Matthew 5:22

      “…it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.” Matthew 18:9

      “…every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” Luke 3:9

      “…it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.” Mark 9:43

      “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire.” John 15:6

      “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.” Jude 1:7

      “But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.” Rev. 21:8

      So while God may not want us sacrificing humans, he does threaten to punish us with fire. We can’t toss out all the above verses because of one or two about human sacrifice. The only thing these two topics have in common is they’re both done by fire, but one is about a sacrificial offerings, and the other about punishment for sins.

      • Kate says:

        one word “context”. God doesn’t send us to Hell……..we choose to go there when we separate ourselves from Him. It’s like choosing not to wear a coat. The wind doesn’t decide that we should freeze…..we chose to freeze when we didn’t put on a coat. 😀

        • I could pretend I believed Jesus was a god, and that he was executed for my sins, but it would be disingenuous as I have no evidence of that. I could believe on faith alone — I could believe in MANY religions on faith alone — but this too seems disingenuous.

          Is it wrong to seek evidence to back up these claims? If Jesus could provide me with a little evidence, I’d be more than happy to believe in him over all other religious claims. But I don’t think it’s as simple as choosing to put on a coat, certainly no one would purposely condemn themselves to an eternity in hell.

          • Jesse says:

            Verses:
            18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! but we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,

            “I will destroy the wisdom
            of the wise
            and discard the intelligence
            of the intelligent.”

            20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.

            Here’s Your Answer:
            21 SINCE GOD IN HIS WISDOM SAW TO IT THAT THE WORLD WOULD NEVER KNOW HIM THROUGH HUMAN WISDOM, HE HAS USED OUR FOOLISH PREACHING TO SAVE THOSE WHO BELIEVE. 22 IT IS THE FOOLISH JEWS, WHO ASK FOR SIGNS FROM HEAVEN. AND IT IS THE FOOLISH GREEKS, WHO SEEK HUMAN WISDOM. 23 SO WHEN WE PREACH THAT CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED, THE JEWS ARE OFFENDED AND THE GENTILES SAY IT’S ALL NONSENSE.

            • Jesse says:

              That was 1 Corinthians 1:18-23

            • Princess says:

              True Indeed

            • Steve says:

              So basically you’re saying that Christianity glorifies ignorance and you are bragging that you don’t seek wisdom. You would have fit right in in the Dark Ages. If there is a god maybe he actually prefers that we make the most of the brains he gave us.

              • Anonymous says:

                Isaiah 1:18
                Verse Concepts
                “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.

                • sklyjd says:

                  Your Biblical quotes mean absolutely nothing. If you were to examine the oldest known Bible known today, the “Sinai Bible” with most of this book housed in the British Museum and other parts located at St Petersburg, Leipzig and Egypt, we find a massive 14,800 differences from today’s Bibles.

                  This Bible already had been rewritten and tampered with because it was written, at best, more than 350 years after the time the Vatican says Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine.

                  Its discovery provided great embarrassment for the Church’s modern-day presentation of Jesus Christ, for it provided biblical scholars with irrefutable evidence of wilful falsifications in all modern-day Gospels, therefore this is good solid evidence that puts the modern Bible passages as you quoted in serious doubt.

                  Therefore, we need real evidence, Biblical scripture is never going to classed as anything more than the ideology of an ancient people.

          • BIGFOOT says:

            You say ” If Jesus could provide me with a little evidence, I’d be more than happy to believe in him over all other religious claims”

            So………here we go:-

            “ If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment, you know Him and have seen Him. Phillip said, “Lord, show us the Father and we shall be satisfied” Jesus said, to him, ‘ Have I been with you all this time Philip, and you still do not know me? ‘Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so, how can you say, “Show us the Father?” John 14:7

            There is the evidence that you seek. Jesus is God present in the Son. That’s all the evidence you need.

            But then again, may be you wanted something “personal” For that he will tell you

            ‘A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.. the men of Nineveh will stand up at judgment with this generation and condemn it. For they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now, one greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the south will rise at the judgment with this generation, and condemn it. For she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now, one greater than Solomon is here” Mathew 12: 38-42

            If you refuse to believe, the only sign that will be for you will be on your last day. And at that time, it will be too late.

            • Steve says:

              This is a perfect example of why I have no respect for religious people. It is impossible to have an intelligent and logical conversation with the vast majority of them with regard to their beliefs. Your idea of evidence is that Jesus claimed he was God (or whatever the accurate way to describe the fairy tale is- the son of god who is one in the same as god…) Many people have claimed to be god. Why do you believe Jesus (which requires that you also believe that he even claimed to be god which you can’t know for a fact- maybe the authors of the bible embellished) and not believe anyone else who claims to be god? How do you know that one of these other self-proclaimed gods isn’t the real god and that he won’t punish you for believing in the wrong self-proclaimed god (Jesus).

              • Tony says:

                I hear ya. But, there is a difference. Jesus is named as Lord in the Old Testament. The Old Testament tells us Jesus date of birth, The Old Testament tells us reason for coming, when He would come, that He is God, why He bore our sin, how He would be killed, why He would be killed, and many many more details of His life. All written prior to His birth. Name another who can claim that.

                • sklyjd says:

                  The belief that Jesus is God, the Son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish theology. Jews believe Jesus did not fulfil messianic prophecies that establish the criteria for the coming of the messiah.

                  Therefore, you cannot claim anything without real evidence, just like any written scripture about every god worshiped past or present they are all manipulated writings by ancient man often in his quest for power over the people.

          • Anna says:

            if it isn’t true then how do you think christianity came about?

            there are historical records that show that jesus was put to death and evidence that shows that many witnesses were real people, can you imagine trying to stage such a huge hoax?
            it would be virtually impossible! so, how do you explain how christianity came about?

            a) some monk ages ago decided that it would make a good story (seriously? come on.)

            b) jesus lived and died but never rose (could easily be disproved by opening the tomb)

            c) other theory?

            if there is no God then how do you explain creation? oh, i did my research on big bang theory and it is all well and good but no one knows what started everything

            plus, life is practically a mathematical impossibility, things need the perfect environment to do what they do and how do you go from unloving to living in the first place? and really, what are the odds of that happening by itself?

            i could give you an entire lecture on science and Christianity but i can’t be bothered to type it, i really encourage you to research the topic,, you might find more evidence than you think.

            and for another thing, who dies for something that they know to be false? i mean, sure, you might die for something that you believe in, but not something you know to be untrue. And Jesus’s deciples did just that, they were persecuted and many of them killed brutally. Which brings me back to: why die for a sham? the decibels must have believed it and there were thousands of eyewitnesses to jesus’s miracles and the places he visited are all real, so… actually christianity comes with quite a lot of evidence.

            (i am christian by the way so research for yourself, don’t just take my word for it)

            • Hi Anna,

              I assure you I have, and will continue to, give thought to these and many other evidences for Christianity.

              I don’t think Christianity was a hoax, any more than I think the origins of Islam, or Mormonism, or Hinduism were based on a hoax. (Okay, well, MAYBE Hinduism…).

              I presently believe Jesus was a real person, who believed he was the messiah predicted by Old Testament prophets. Jesus had a small band of followers, and his stories became the stuff of legend. (Keeping in mind that these stories weren’t likely written for decades after his death.)

              But with all due respect, just because Jesus’ followers may been willing to die for him doesn’t prove he did any miracles. In fact, finding a handful of people who will die for you isn’t even all that impressive. Heaven’s Gate leader Marshall Applewhite convinced 38 to die for his cause, and Jim Jones took over 800 people with him. And let’s not forget that Peter refused to die for Jesus (which is rather strange, considering all that he’d supposedly witnessed), and that the people of Jesus’ time chose Barabbas over Jesus (I wasn’t there, but apparently not everyone who saw Jesus’ works was very impressed).

              Jesus apostles may have even died for the cause long before exaggerated rumors began to spread. All these stories amount to little more than ancient hearsay.

              As for the origin of the Universe, it is much simpler to assume that the Universe itself has always existed (see Question #6) than to have to explain how a God can just “always exist.” Likewise, it seems to be more mathematically probable that a single cell should come to exist from materials that are known to exists, than an extremely complex being should just exist, made from materials that have not even been proven to exist (see #5).

              But I do hope you will continue asking questions and seeking answers.

              Take care!
              500Q

              • During Jesus Last Supper with his disciples, he predicted that Peter would deny knowledge of him, stating that Peter would disown him before the rooster crowed the next morning. Following the arrest of Jesus Peter denied knowing him thrice, but after the third denial, heard the rooster crow and recalled the prediction as Jesus turned to look at him. Peter then began to cry bitterly. This final incident is known as the Repentance of Peter. Peter was crucified in Rome under Emperor Nero Augustus Caesar in the Neronian persecution, A.D. 67,68. There satisfactory evidence Peter was crucified upside down at his own request, since he saw himself unworthy to be crucified in the same way as Jesus. Further… The detection of gravitational waves by the BICEP2 experiment at the South Pole supports the cosmic inflation theory of how the universe came to be. The discovery, made in part by Assistant Professor Chao-Lin Kuo, supports the theoretical work of Stanford’s Andrei Linde. Almost 14 billion years ago, the universe we inhabit burst into existence in an extraordinary event that initiated the Big Bang. In the first fleeting fraction of a second, the universe expanded exponentially, stretching far beyond the view of today’s best telescopes. All this, of course, has just been theory.
                Researchers from the BICEP2 collaboration announced March 17, 2014 the first direct evidence supporting this theory, known as “cosmic inflation.” Their data also represent the first images of gravitational waves, or ripples in space-time. These waves have been described as the “first tremors of the Big Bang.” Finally, the data confirm a deep connection between quantum mechanics and general relativity.
                Further…
                God time Question: “What is God’s relationship to time?”

                Answer: We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. However, God dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of His not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15). Knowing that “God is spirit” (John 4:24), what is His relationship to time?

                In Psalm 90:4, Moses used a simple yet profound analogy in describing the timelessness of God: “For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” The eternity of God is contrasted with the temporality of man. Our lives are but short and frail, but God does not weaken or fail with the passage of time.

                In a sense, the marking of time is irrelevant to God because He transcends it.

                These questions you ask and the objections you raise are rather elementary. You need only to do your own research friend. The answers are clearly there. I feel you are not working hard enough.
                Look this stuff up for yourself and do not be lazy.

                • Princess says:

                  Great answer!, because its all truth.. You said more than a mouth full and that should help many who read and search for the truth..

          • Mel says:

            Read the Gospels. Read them over and over and over. I promise you Jesus is who He says he is, and the more you read, the more you will realize He couldn’t make the claims He did without being God. If He’s not God, He’s a lunatic. There is no room for calling Him a moral teacher. I wouldn’t believe unless Jesus was real but He revealed Himself to me in mighty, undeniable ways. I have been through the age of doubt and questioning myself.
            I encourage you to revisit the gospels and sit there a while. God bless!!

            • Howdy Mel, thanks for taking the time to write.

              I would point out that people are also encouraged to read Dianetics, and the Book for Mormon, and the Quran. Reading something repeatedly doesn’t make it true, but it certainly does have a way of programming (brainwashing?) our minds.

              Islam has also programmed a lot of minds, and it will likely overtake Christianity one day, but that still won’t make Mohammad a real prophet in my mind (perhaps I haven’t read the Quran enough). But there’s no denying the power of a great story.

              At the present time, I don’t think Jesus was a lunatic or just a moral teacher. I could be wrong, but I tend to think he started out as someone who truly believed he was the messiah (he certainly wasn’t the first one, and there are STILL people today who claim to be the messiah or the returned Christ). I think there is some truth to his story, but it quickly became the exaggerated stuff of legend.

              Over the years I’ve become critical of personal/spiritual experiences because so many religions claim them. For example. Mormon missionaries will often ask you to read and pray about the Book of Mormon, because “God’s Holy Spirit will reveal to you that it’s true!” People from various religions have also had near death experiences where they return and — surprise — they claim their religion was the correct one! But which one do we believe?

              And I’m not bitter, but after 30 years of praying and asking God to speak to me or show me something — anything — I have to wonder why God would reveal himself to you, but not me. It doesn’t seem fair that you will get into heaven and I won’t, simply because he give you the experience and not me.

              Anyway, if it makes sense to you, keep believing it. But never stop asking questions. 🙂

              Take care,
              500Q

              • Catdompa says:

                Name one man who claimed to be the Messiah who performed witnessed miracles, including raising the dead, just one.

                • Hi Catdompa,

                  Me. I am the Messiah. I have performed many miracles that were witnessed by others, including raising the dead.

                  Claims are easy to make. I would never argue that these things were not claimed about Jesus, the real question is, “Are they true?”

                  500Q

                • Robert McKay says:

                  May Satan’s Occult censor this one from you… *flexes*

                  Ok Listen…

                  You’re talking about Jesus H. Christ; The Only [YHWH] in the last 6,000+ years; The Lord. Your Lord.

                  Our Savior, Creator, Him, He, Who Is.

                  Do you understand now, minion of Satan? Or maybe just a fellow lad… perhaps?
                  … A diddler or dove? Nothing more than your fathers or mothers success? I am you too, we’re all in this together…

                  Will his minions cease their own eternal destruction? For they forget who Created; The Creator, not the Lord? Up is down?!

                  Complete delusion! You Must Find Him Before Your Soul Is Lost Eternally! Game shutsdowns, byebye!

                  #ExposeTheOccult #FuckSatan #ChristIsKing #ELWHim (Elohim)-> #EternalLifeWithinHim

                  “It is perhaps true that God was known only by the word “Elohim” from Adam until Abraham. Abraham called God “Lord,” …in Hebrew Adonai (Genesis 18:3).”

            • Scott says:

              ” I promise you Jesus is who He says he is, and the more you read, the more you will realize…”
              That is self-reinforcement. You can’t promise me or anyone else anything except that you’ve convinced yourself of something. That, I promise you, is the only thing you can promise and back up with certainty.

        • David says:

          one word “ridiculous”

        • mike says:

          free will given to all, including Angels whom God created… the result of the choices we make by free will. utlimately will land us in heaven or hell. [ earth is a learning facility.] That is why God created Jesus in order for Jesus to become all sin…Whether one refused to believe Jesus performed miracles, healed, taught, still doesn’t detract from the fact we are all responsible for our actions… if one believes that Jesus was created and sent to absorb all sin, past, present and future.. then all who live now, then and in the future will be allowed into Heaven… good or bad alike. when Jesus died at the cross all sin, past, present, and future of all humankind was forgiven.. his resurrection defeated death. [death = Satan / eternal life = God…[Lucifer] was defeated then upon Jesus’ resurrection… when one truly believes this, they do not go to Hell… the “crown” or reward will be given to all in Heaven based on the “good or “bad” one did in this lifetime…Heaven even if ones reward is minimal is still better than anything one experiences on this earth. eternal life in Heaven.. eternal Death of the soul in Hell… For those who never knew Jesus [whether they died before Jesus was on earth, their souls will be given an opportunity to believe and know him….or refuse to. if they refuse to, then they are at the complete mercy of Satan a good angel who rebelled who God keeps around to punish us… God could have created robots instead of humans to obey his every command / law. but the absence of love is a robot’s makeup.. God wants us to love him not of necessity but of want. Obligation is not love. to want to believe / do something is… God is a jealous God, Jesus was the lamb led to the slaughter. Jesus knew his mission from the time of his adolescence. Jesus wasn’t the crowds idea of a true Messiah/ Savior. therefore one week they hailed him as the Savior, the next week they rejected him. what i can’t comprehend… they all knew he was special and had special powers…and experienced them first hand… yet still refused to believe he was the one…. how much better are we that believe he was / is the one, that didn’t even witness his life… There is a place in Heaven for all Souls as long as they were/are/will be given the opportunity to believe/accept Jesus as the Son of God… The creation of Jesus: God, a sinless entity extracted his own DNA or had his own DNA extracted, then an angel of God, accompanied by the holy spirit delivered his DNA unto the Virgin Mary, and implanted this DNA into her, thus creating the son of God… no mystery… nothing to do with faith, all to do with science of which was not understood back in that time but is now…

          • Will Good says:

            That was a bunch of garbage.. Total false doctrine, but I do have to make one direct comment.. An angel did not accompany the Holy Spirit and implant God’s DNA into Mary.. God is spirit, DNA is physical/flesh.. God does not have DNA… What a joke man!

        • thomas says:

          the Bible tends to refute that ideology.

          First, hell is a construct created but not truly referred to in the bible as an actual place.
          Second, he made the rules and already planned for us to do what we did, not to mention created us for our purposes and set us to them, knowing we would rebel and thus giving him the justification for cleansing the earth of sin after the Messiah comes. This is part of Judaic Messianic Tradition.
          Third, the idea of free will… thus allowing us to act against the ‘will of god’… is highly suspect. When you have an idea or a belief do you truly know where it comes from. Neural Studies have also been producing data that seems to point to ideas and actions as being fully formed before our conscious brain even knows what they are. (Free Will, by Sam Harris).
          Fourth, when it comes to Atheism your ideology is refuted by god himself (2 Corinthian 4:4, Romans 1:28, Romans 9:19, Exodus 9:12). It’s so convenient to say we have a choice when multiple passages deny it. In fact, god could not truly be all powerful if we had unrestricted free will. Without unrestricted (ie. free) will, we have instead confined and limited will.

          Fifth, I know many atheists who would gladly follow a just God but we’ve read too much of the Bible to consider YHWH (or whatever you call him) just. Of course, in my opinion, it’s an obvious choice to not worship a God I don’t believe in because ‘he’ is unworthy. Condemning us for a choice that he allowed us to make is not an appropriate response to the question by saying it is our fault when he did nothing to prevent what was in his power to prevent. Furthermore, what could he have prevented but did anyway and called justified?
          A) 70,000 dead Israelites because God wasn’t paid money for everyone counted? I’m sorry, that’s not justice.
          B) Killing Job’s livelihood and family just to prove a point. Not just.
          C) Condeming a man to death without trial for picking up sticks in numbers 15. Yet those that struggled to bring him in also did work by hauling him in on the Sabbath. However the captors aren’t killed for working on the Sabbath. Nor are the people that stoned the victim. Jewish Law typically states that you can’t lift or carry anything on the Sabbath that is larger or heavier than a Fig. How big do you suppose the rocks were that were used? I doubt they were sling sized. Again, the God of the Bible is not just.

          You use the word ‘Context’ but you forget the rest of the Bible because its either less popular, confusing, or problematic to the ideology you have formed within your own mind.

          • Anonymous says:

            Did you know that the whole Bible points to Jesus? God coming to earth to DIE so that we don’t have to? And you say God isn’t kind? That’s love you’ve never even experienced on earth on any level.

      • Innocent says:

        First of all, the Bible doesn’t say that heaven is our inheritance. On the other hand, it says that the earth is our inheritance. Read your Bible.

        Also, those who died without knowing Christ such as children or still born or those who do not believe today because satan has blinded them will be given the opportunity after the return of Jesus Christ to actually know the Bible. This is what the Bible actually says. Please, read your Bible with open mind. Don’t read it with any preconception and it will make more sense to you.

        My younger brother passed from an auto-crash. I was devastated but knowing that he’ll live again was comforting to me.

        • Mary Ive says:

          Hello Innocent
          I am sorry for your loss. I agree with you. Would you please point me to the Bible verses that back-up what you have mentioned above?
          Many thanks.

        • I too am sorry for your loss, but respectfully disagree that the Bible says that after Jesus returns, children and others who never knew Christ would be given a second opportunity to “know the Bible.”

          Even if that were the case, I’m not sure how this would work. These people wouldn’t have much free will to choose to accept or reject Christ if he’s standing right there, so they’re pretty much guaranteed heaven (i.e. we’d still all be better off not knowing about Jesus).

          The Bible DOES say that we only die once, and then we face judgement (Heb. 9:27), I don’t see any exceptions for children or others. So I would also like to put in a request for the Bible verses that back-up this idea, I don’t think they exist, but would welcome evidence to the contrary.

          500Q

        • Will Good says:

          That’s false doctrine too.. Babies and children are sinless for starters.. Why do you think Christ said we must become like as little children? And, at Christ’s return, it’s judgement time, no one will be given any second chances and the Bible does not say what you claim,

          ” For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”(Hebrews 9:26-27)..

          You see, you live and this is your chance to obey, while you live, then you die and then the judgement.. No second chances!

          • Anonymous says:

            And how do you know what you say is true? How do you know that some of the scriptures in the bible itself, are not man made doctrines? And don’t you think it’s a contradiction when your same bible says “God is Love” and then at the same time, he only gives people ONE lifetime to get things right? That is NOT a just or loving god at all, to punish people for ETERNITY just because they had one bad life. Just use your common sense here instead of believing everything you read. Not everyone is on the same level of learning, some people obviously need multiple lifetimes to get it right. I know this isn’t my first life here on planet earth, but I hope it’s my last (unless of course the planet goes out of “Hell” mode)

            Here is a good link for you to read, this is a more accurate translation of the bible, and it’s a book but it makes much more sense. Trust me, give it a chance and come to your own conclusion. This book actually proves what it says- http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/the-present-with-religion/

            • Will Good says:

              That is among some of the stupidest lies I have ever read.. That trash is not a translation of the Bible, much less “a more accurate translation of the bible”.. The Bible makes perfect sense to me, unlike the heretical ignorance found in the link you posted..

              Yes, apocalypse means the complete final destruction of the world.. It doesn’t mean t”o unveil” like your link says, it is Revelation that means “to reveal”.. That abomination you call “a more accurate translation of the bible” starts lying from the first sentence..

              You’re hilarious, this isn’t your first lifetime.. HaHaHaHa, what a joke!

              For Him to be just, there has to be laws.. When He gives man laws that they are expected to keep and they break them, they sin. His punishment for sin is completely just, because He has warned us what the punishment will be if we break His laws.. He gives man the free will to chose between right and wrong.. When a person disobeys Him and sins against Him, they are choosing to be cast into the lake of fire.. God doesn’t send anybody to Hell, the people, through there wickedness send themselves to Hell..

              If a speed limit sign says, “50 mph” and you get caught going “90 mph” then you didn’t obey the law and the fine(punishment) for breaking that law is just.. It works the same with God, when He says to do something and you don’t do it or He says not to do something and you go on ahead and do it anyway, then you sinned by disobeying Him and His punishment that He forewarned you of if you disobeyed is totally just.. People like you just want try to justify their sin and wickedness by calling God unjust for punishing unrepentant sinners like He said He would do if they disobeyed Him.. Your argument is an argument of ignorance.. People can’t blame God for punishing them for their choices that result in sin when they’ve been forewarned of what the consequences for sin would be.. Nice try though, you gave a noble effort.. lol And, people don’t need multiple lifetimes to get it right.. People are given a conscience and the knowledge of right and wrong and they’re given the free will choice of which one they will do, good or evil…

              ***The Bible does teach that we inherit Heaven!***

              “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”(Luke 18:18)..

              Eternal Life refers to Heaven!

              “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”(1 Corinthians 15:50 )..

              The Kingdom of God refers to Heaven!

              “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”(Matthew 25:34)

              Again, The Kingdom of God refers to Heaven!

              ***”Inherit the Earth” does not mean the literal planet Earth.. When Christ returns, there will be no planet Earth to inherit, because it will be destroyed along with the Heavens as we know them ***

              insight to the meaning of Jesus’ statement in Matthew 5:5 can be gained by remembering that the land of Canaan was and is regarded as a “type” of heaven (Hebrews 3:16-4:10). Thus this verse can also be properly viewed to indicate that the meek will be received into the heavenly kingdom and receive blessings there…

              “inherit the earth” could have been translated “inherit the land.” It seems that this was a proverbial Jewish expression denoting any great blessing. It refers back to the promised inheritance of the land of Canaan which was anticipated for so long by the patriarchs, and which was considered to be an ultimate blessing of God to His people. This type of usage of the phrase is found four times in Psalms 37 (vs. 9, 11, 22, 29) and also in Isaiah 60:21. Here are the verses in Psalms 37:

              “those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth” (v. 9)

              “the meek shall inherit the earth” (v. 11)

              “those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth” (v. 22)

              “The righteous shall inherit the land” (v. 29).

              ***Notice how the word for “earth”is also translated “land” although they are the same word in the original language.***

              “Inherit the earth” or “Inherit the land” was a common expression of the day which Jesus used to express the great spiritual blessings which belong to those who are meek. This interpretation is necessary in order for this verse to properly harmonize with the other plain passages like 2 Peter 3:10,11 which teach that the earth will be destroyed…

              ***How do I know what I say is true? How do I know that some of the scriptures in the bible itself, are not man made doctrines?***

              First– We as babies are born sinless.. To say we are born guilty of sin is to espouse the false doctrine of “Original Sin” or “Inherited Sin” which we inherited from Adam and that is false, we do not inherit Adam’s sin only the consequences of his sin, such as women having pain in childbirth and men having to work hard for an existence and death..

              If sin is inherited, then how can the Bible claim that Jesus, being born in this world, was without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

              Sin is defined as transgressing or breaking God’s law.. Babies and children cannot break God’s law, because they don’t know right from wrong, you have to know something is wrong in order to be sin and be held accountable.. Babies and Children have no knowledge of good and evil.. They don’t gain this knowledge until they have reached the age of accountability..

              “Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.”(Deuteronomy 1:39)

              ***The phrase “knowledge of good and evil” in the verse above is the same phrase used in Genesis referring to Adam and Eve gaining the knowledge of good and evil after disobeying God and eating the fruit of the forbidden tree… Before they ate of that fruit, they were sinless, perfect and had no knowledge of good and evil.. By eating that fruit, they sinned against God and became aware of good and evil… They immediately noticed that they were naked, they did not know that before they ate the forbidden fruit..

              “Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings” (Isaiah 7:15-16)

              This is why Jesus said the kingdom of heaven (another description of the church) is composed of people who are similar to little children (Mark 10:14). We have to become like children to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:3). To enter the church, we must be cleansed of our sins, just as little children are without sin.

              Second– “How do I know that some of the scriptures in the bible itself, are not man made doctrines?”

              Simple… Because all of the writers of the Bible were under the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth.. They were divinely inspired, the Holy Spirit gave them what they were to write.. They did not write of their own personal accord.. That’s why the word of God is perfect and infallible.. God is omnipotent, He is powerful enough to make sure what He wanted wrote was written and He is powerful enough to preserve His word and keep it from being perverted down through the ages and that is exactly what He has done..

              That is among some of the stupidest lies I have ever read.. That trash is not a translation of the Bible, much less “a more accurate translation of the bible”.. The Bible makes perfect sense to me, unlike the heretical ignorance found in the link you posted..

              Yes, apocalypse means the complete final destruction of the world.. It doesn’t mean t”o unveil” like your link says, it is Revelation that means “to reveal”.. That abomination you call “a more accurate translation of the bible” starts lying from the first sentence..

              You’re hilarious, this isn’t your first lifetime.. HaHaHaHa, what a joke!

              For Him to be just, there has to be laws.. When He gives man laws that they are expected to keep and they break them, they sin. His punishment for sin is completely just, because He has warned us what the punishment will be if we break His laws.. He gives man the free will to chose between right and wrong.. When a person disobeys Him and sins against Him, they are choosing to be cast into the lake of fire.. God doesn’t send anybody to Hell, the people, through there wickedness send themselves to Hell..

              If a speed limit sign says, “50 mph” and you get caught going “90 mph” then you didn’t obey the law and the fine(punishment) for breaking that law is just.. It works the same with God, when He says to do something and you don’t do it or He says not to do something and you go on ahead and do it anyway, then you sinned by disobeying Him and His punishment that He forewarned you of if you disobeyed is totally just.. People like you just want try to justify their sin and wickedness by calling God unjust for punishing unrepentant sinners like He said He would do if they disobeyed Him.. Your argument is an argument of ignorance.. People can’t blame God for punishing them for their choices that result in sin when they’ve been forewarned of what the consequences for sin would be.. Nice try though, you gave a noble effort.. lol And, people don’t need multiple lifetimes to get it right.. People are given a conscience and the knowledge of right and wrong and they’re given the free will choice of which one they will do, good or evil…

              ***The Bible does teach that we inherit Heaven!***

              “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”(Luke 18:18)..

              Eternal Life refers to Heaven!

              “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”(1 Corinthians 15:50 )..

              The Kingdom of God refers to Heaven!

              “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”(Matthew 25:34)

              Again, The Kingdom of God refers to Heaven!

              ***”Inherit the Earth” does not mean the literal planet Earth.. When Christ returns, there will be no planet Earth to inherit, because it will be destroyed along with the Heavens as we know them ***

              insight to the meaning of Jesus’ statement in Matthew 5:5 can be gained by remembering that the land of Canaan was and is regarded as a “type” of heaven (Hebrews 3:16-4:10). Thus this verse can also be properly viewed to indicate that the meek will be received into the heavenly kingdom and receive blessings there…

              “inherit the earth” could have been translated “inherit the land.” It seems that this was a proverbial Jewish expression denoting any great blessing. It refers back to the promised inheritance of the land of Canaan which was anticipated for so long by the patriarchs, and which was considered to be an ultimate blessing of God to His people. This type of usage of the phrase is found four times in Psalms 37 (vs. 9, 11, 22, 29) and also in Isaiah 60:21. Here are the verses in Psalms 37:

              “those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth” (v. 9)

              “the meek shall inherit the earth” (v. 11)

              “those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth” (v. 22)

              “The righteous shall inherit the land” (v. 29).

              ***Notice how the word for “earth”is also translated “land” although they are the same word in the original language.***

              “Inherit the earth” or “Inherit the land” was a common expression of the day which Jesus used to express the great spiritual blessings which belong to those who are meek. This interpretation is necessary in order for this verse to properly harmonize with the other plain passages like 2 Peter 3:10,11 which teach that the earth will be destroyed…

              ***How do I know what I say is true? How do I know that some of the scriptures in the bible itself, are not man made doctrines?***

              First– We as babies are born sinless.. To say we are born guilty of sin is to espouse the false doctrine of “Original Sin” or “Inherited Sin” which we inherited from Adam and that is false, we do not inherit Adam’s sin only the consequences of his sin, such as women having pain in childbirth and men having to work hard for an existence and death..

              If sin is inherited, then how can the Bible claim that Jesus, being born in this world, was without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

              Sin is defined as transgressing or breaking God’s law.. Babies and children cannot break God’s law, because they don’t know right from wrong, you have to know something is wrong in order to be sin and be held accountable.. Babies and Children have no knowledge of good and evil.. They don’t gain this knowledge until they have reached the age of accountability..

              “Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.”(Deuteronomy 1:39)

              ***The phrase “knowledge of good and evil” in the verse above is the same phrase used in Genesis referring to Adam and Eve gaining the knowledge of good and evil after disobeying God and eating the fruit of the forbidden tree… Before they ate of that fruit, they were sinless, perfect and had no knowledge of good and evil.. By eating that fruit, they sinned against God and became aware of good and evil… They immediately noticed that they were naked, they did not know that before they ate the forbidden fruit..

              “Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings” (Isaiah 7:15-16)

              This is why Jesus said the kingdom of heaven (another description of the church) is composed of people who are similar to little children (Mark 10:14). We have to become like children to enter the kingdom (Matthew 18:3). To enter the church, we must be cleansed of our sins, just as little children are without sin.

              Second– “How do I know that some of the scriptures in the bible itself, are not man made doctrines?”

              Simple… Because all of the writers of the Bible were under the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth.. They were divinely inspired, the Holy Spirit gave them what they were to write.. They did not write of their own personal accord.. That’s why the word of God is perfect and infallible.. God is omnipotent, He is powerful enough to make sure what He wanted wrote was written and He is powerful enough to preserve His word and keep it from being perverted down through the ages and that is exactly what He has done..

            • Will Good says:

              Sorry about that.. I don’t know why the website posted my comment in duplicate, but it did, it posted the same thing twice in one comment..

            • Scott says:

              It’s all man-made doctrine.

        • Barbara Codling says:

          Yes, after the return of Jesus (RAPTURE) people will still have a chance to repent and turn to God. Thats a kind loving God who doesnt want any one to perish without knowledge of Him .

          • playzfahdayz says:

            Well, slightly inaccurate, I want to mention that Seal #6 explains that the Earth will experience the aftermath of turmoil and the “Earth will Shake” — During this time, all sinners will be given the opportunity to admit God and repent against their own sins, in effort to find God and be given a chance into Heaven. “The Sun will turn Black and the moon will turn red” during this time and the anti-christ of Babylon will try to convince these remaining men and women to NOT follow God. Basically, this is the last “chance” that these sinners have to be awakened and forgiven but if they fail to find God during this time, unfortunately they will remain sinners and be punished during the 1,000 years of Christs “return” onto Earth, in other words, after Seal #7 is revealed and the rapture is over. While the Children of God will be living their 1,000 years as Priests, again, the “sinners” who chose not to follow God will remain imprisoned with Satan until Satan is released onto the Earth again, after those 1,000 years, where those souls will be “reborn” physically onto the Earth again and given another chance to find God.

      • BIGFOOT says:

        Hey

        I just wondered, what if your Son one morning woke up, and after break first, looked at you and asked you with a puzzled look,

        “Dad, why the hell did you conceive me?”

        You have to agree that that, is a pretty much six million dollar question.

        The question sounds insulting.

        Did you coincidence him because…….you felt good while doing it? Did you coincide him because you just wanted to have him? Did you conceive him because you had great plans for him?

        Why did you conceive him?

        Did you conceive him because he told you he wanted to come into this world? Did he tell you to conceive him? Did he tell you he longed to experience life on earth? Did you conceive him because you could?

        “Why Dad, did you conceive me?”

        Did you conceive him because you felt that there was a lot of good in the world and you wanted to share with your very own? I guess by now you have found otherwise.

        So, now that we know that the world is in pretty much nasty state, you will not be fooling anyone by this claim. So, why did you conceive him?

        Or was it because you wanted someone to share you suffering? That cannot be because you loved him.

        Oh, did you conceive him because you loved him?

        BUT YOU DID NOT KNOW HIM UNTIL HE POPPED OUT!!

        So, why?

        Did you conceive him because it was your duty? WHO TOLD YOU?!!

        Did you conceive him because you wanted someone to take care of you in your old age?

        So, you just did it for yourself?

        Oh, no?

        “Son, I conceived you because………..I wanted a Son”

        Oh, so it was about you all along?

        “Oh no, not just that you just don’t understand”

        Hmm……….And when God tell you the same thing………..He does not make sense.

        Taught luck He is,but………………you just do not understand.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are sure right !God want put us in hell ! We put our self because of our disobey !!!!!😃amen

    • lamourlad says:

      I see you forgot one of the most important scriptures concerning this topic. The bias and cynical nature of your article is obvious. Not only are God’s laws written on our hearts, but He made Himself glaringly, apparent in all His creation and put eternity upon the hearts of every, single human being; for every person fears death and this, alone, gives way to seeking something more than what is before us. Indigenous peoples around the world understood and sought Him out just from the creation around them. Like the American Indians who worshiped the Great Spirit. It was not perfect, but they nevertheless, saw and sought that which they knew was greater than themselves, God, without hearing the gospel. God never allows even one person to die without a personal knowledge of Himself. He judges the heart of every man through the laws that they, themselves, make, with the laws He writes on their hearts and by the creation we see around us. Together they create a platform where His Spirit can still work and lead to salvation just as He had to do for the Old Testament world, before Jesus Christ came into it. He is just, holy and fair and He states that NO man will have an excuse when they stand before Him. And woe to those who would “surppress the truth”.

      Romans 1:18-21

      18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

      21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

  2. BriBrit says:

    It so sad reading the utter confusion on this thread. Typical humans we want to put God into our little theological boxes. If the Bible doesn’t tell us we would be wiser to keep quiet than to utter vain babblings . Rest assured God through Christ reonciled the whole world to Himself and in His time and order He will save every soul who comes to Him through Christ Jesus.

    • Hi BriBrit,

      It so sad reading about the utter confusion Christianity has caused. Typical humans we want to keep on living forever. If the Bible doesn’t tell us the truth, it would be wiser to question its origins than give ourselves over to bronze age babblings. Rest assured the Bible was written by men, and every person will fade into oblivion when their cells stop bringing oxygen to their brain.

      • John Toniolo says:

        I love it lol!!! Unfortunately, and I’m not trying to be a prejudiced dick here, a lot of Christians seem to lack intelligence in writing. If I read anything and I find communication/grammatical errors, I immediately lose tons of respect for the publication. If people cannot write in a professional and comprehensible manner, how can one take them seriously? If I feel like i’m speaking to a child, I may treat them as such.
        Note: In no way do I think all Christians are unintelligent. I was merely providing an opinion based on my personal experience. Many of the Christians on this thread seem very intelligent, and post several references and links as to why they think the way they do.

      • Kate says:

        well thats a little narrow-minded don’t you think? Like i comment later down, i’m no theologist and in know way do i believe that i know everything, but then again….neither do any of us human beings. We’ve merely scratched the surface of all the mysteries that the universe contains yet whenever we’re not sure about something we immediately assume that it’s either false or doesn’t exist. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (that’s why we have freedom of speech) but condemning someone else’s belief system in a disrespectful way shows a lack of integrity and in a way…intelligence. We should be willing to discuss sensitive matters such as this without being derrogative. 🙂

      • Innocent says:

        With the best that man can offer, he still ca’t predict with certainty what will happen the next day. Yet, you keep saying that the God that through His prophets was able to tell us what will happen with razor-edge accuracy hundreds of years before hand doesn’t exist. What a world of pick and choose what to belief!

        • Actually, I’ve been carefully looking at these prophecies (see my other posts), and I have yet to find one that would qualify as “razor-edge accuracy.” In fact, the closer I look at them, the more I realize the mistakes people have made in believing in them. I would love to find one that is actually convincing, so if you can think of one I haven’t covered yet I’d love to see it.

          Take care,
          500Q

          • Innocent says:

            Okay, read this book and get back to me with your disproof of the evidence in it: http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/sites/default/files/booklets/pdf/PF.pdf. This booklet is from our Presiding Evangelist. It has more than I can offer in this blog but the truth is, if you look at the right place, there were several historians who were not christians but liberal intellects and thus has no agenda whatsoever, and their writings back up what the Bible says. If you can’t read the book, I can fill you up with fulfilled Bible prophecies from circular historians,not just the Bible.

            • I hope you understand that I cannot possibly respond to every claim in this booklet, but I’ll take on one as an example.

              “Jesus Christ prophesied that just before His return there would be ‘famines’—lack of food—and ‘pestilences’—disease epidemics. Presently we are seeing just the beginning of these curses…”

              I explore prophecy because it was one of the few things God is said to have given us as evidence, however, prophecies are highly problematic (see question #32), and each prophecy must be judged on its own merit.

              One of the problems with prophecy like this one is that it is extremely probable. We have always had hunger and disease, and predicting there would be hunger and disease in the future is like predicting there will be sunshine and rain. If I were to predict that, “At a non-specified time in the future there will be hunger and famine,” and that prediction eventually came to pass, would you believe I was a God?

              Let’s not forget Jesus Christ also said:

              “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
              ~Matt. 16:27-28

              It’s not fair to pick the prophecies you like, and ignore/reinterpret/apply a spiritual meaning to those you don’t.

              500Q

              • Just thinking out loud says:

                Just something to think about. If John was alive on the Isle of Patmos and the God that you think doesn’t exist does, and He transported Him into the future (Enstien said it was possible) then this prophecy would have been fulfilled, would it not? A lot of ifs but food for thought.

          • MyAvatarIsAPygmyAtheistAlien says:

            I’m not sure who originally said it, but the bible is basically a Big Book of Multiple Choice, with the answer pages ripped out. 🙂

            This enables people to say A plus C = Obama is the antichrist, and nobody can pull out the correct answers from pg 2015 because it’s missing from the book!

    • Will Good says:

      “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”(1 Peter 4:11)

  3. Moondoggy says:

    This is one of those questions I wish would have had the balls to ask back in the my youth when I was active in the church. You would think it would have to enter the mind of anyone who has even a small amount of knowledge of our modern world. Of course there have been people who never heard this message. And what of all the people that died moments after Jesus supposedly died on the cross. Suddenly the rules that govern the eternal soul have changed. No time to learn of the “good news” and the new rules for entry through the gates. That is some crappy timing. The whole story is just completely illogical. A never changed god who changed the most important rule for all of mankind. How can that possible be explained.

    When I see responses like the two you have already received here, I have to believe that some people(maybe even most people) simply are not interested in, or not mentally capable of, looking for the truth. They just want a story that comes from a supposed authority figure that comforts them. Putting logical arguments up and expecting a logical rebuttal is going to be a rare occurrence. I searched this same question on the web a bit before posting this. The apologists that did try to use logic to find an answer always worked themselves into a hole. One made me laugh when he wrote that it was possible that god knows the decisions that person would have made if they had been exposed to the gospel, and they would be judged on that. HA! Do these people even listen to themselves?

    • Thanks Moondoggy,

      “You would think it would have to enter the mind of anyone who has even a small amount of knowledge of our modern world.”

      Since Romans deals with it, it appears this question was even on the minds of the earliest Christians. But Romans gives us a mixed answer, saying in 2:12 that “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law…” and in 4:15 “The law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.” So which is it? Do we perish or is there no violation? I guess we can take our pick.

      “A never changed god who changed the most important rule for all of mankind. How can that possible be explained.”

      Speaking of which, I remember reading through the entire Bible as a youngster, and how odd it seemed when God went from one God to three Gods. The OT repeats ad nauseum “God is one God, God is one God, God is one God.” If the Jews knew anything, it was that God was ONE God. But then you get into the NT, and suddenly God is two or three Gods… and praying to Himself. No wonder the Jews rejected this idea.

      “One made me laugh when he wrote that it was possible that god knows the decisions that person would have made if they had been exposed to the gospel, and they would be judged on that.”

      Sure, why not, God knows everything. But then why send out missionaries, since God already knows how they’ll respond? Heck, why create us at all if He already knows what we’re all going to do? That’s another Biblical paradox… If God already knows what we’re going to do, then there’s little point in all of this. But if God doesn’t know what we’re going to do, then He doesn’t know everything.

      • Innocent says:

        I don’t think you actually paid any attention reading the entire Bible. In Genesis, it reads, Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

        This does not sound like a singular pronoun, does it?
        The fact that you do not understand all that the Bible says does not mean it is erroneous.

        • Hi Innocent,

          Actually, according to Rabbi Singer, “Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court.”

          See: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/trinity-genesis.html

          But from a more skeptical viewpoint, the Canaanites had a chief god named El, who created many gods, and sat as chief counsel. We see hints of this thinking in verses like Psalm 82:1: “God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the gods.” It’s only later that God becomes the only god out there.

          So it’s possible that God was referring to the other gods on his “great assembly,” or angels, or (as Christian commentators have suggested) “us” or “our” refer to plurals of majesty.

          Take care,
          500Q

          • Innocent says:

            If that link you pointed to becomes proven to be true, what did the bees thrive on before the arrival of the flowering plants. Maybe they fasted. You want to believe on hypothesis upon hypothesis upon hypothesis, but you refuse to believe in evidenced reality.

            That you don’t understand something does not mean it’s not there. If you think it cruel on the fish and the Cymothoa Exigua you mentioned, maybe you would stop eating because eating is causing harm to some organism out there.

            When you say that the egg came before the bird, just listen to yourself carefully. How can that be? Biologically, we know that the egg is a product of the male and female bird, so where in the world did the egg come from before the existence of the bird?

            Now, think about this critically: There are laws which me and you know and believe exist. Such laws include the law of gravity, etc. These laws DO NOT care whether you believe in their existence or not. They do not care whether you’re ignorance of their existence or not. For instance, if you leave your two year old to care for himself on the roof of a three story building and he eventually falls off the edge to the ground, gravity does not care how inexperience or ignorance he is, it will take its toll on him and the result, you guess it. This is the same with all the laws that man discover over time. Lives have been and are still lost because man didn’t really understand the laws surrounding the adventure they got into. As an engineer, I’m always cautious of venturing into an uncharted territory because these laws don’t care about my ignorance of their existence.

            Just as we have these physical laws, there are spiritual laws in place as well. And if you disobey these laws, too bad; you’ll reap the automatic consequence just as with the physical laws. But thank God who put all these laws in place, He’s teaching us about these laws so we don’t make mistakes of ignorance and reap the ugly consequence. So, you can believe it or not, the consequence will not change.

            Again, to restate the Bible’s position to the initial question, no one is going to heaven as an inheritance. Those who have not heard the gospel will be given the opportunity to hear it after the return of Jesus Christ. That is what the Bible says.

          • Innocent says:

            No offense or insult to the Rabbi you referenced, but these same Jews were the ones that crucified Jesus Christ and ignored all that He told them. Even though they claim to obey One God, they were the ones that worshipped calves time after time after seeing all the heavy miracles that that same one God did for them. That’s why Jesus Christ called them hypocrites time after time. They were told time after starting with their Father Jacob and then prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc , that they will go into captivity, be scattered throughout the face of the earth, etc if they continue in their harlotry. What did they do, repent, no. They continued in their sins and thats why they are what they’re today. They didn’t believe in Jesus even though He was foretold to come the way He came hundreds of years before He came.

            Now, the same Jesus was the God of the old testament that dealt with them throughout the old testament as testified in the New Testament. That same Jesus was with God the Father during the creation time. Thus, there is God the Father, and God the Son, that is Jesus Christ as John said. The holy spirit is not God. It was never referred to as “he” in the original manuscript, but with a neuter. Do the research.

            The gods referred to in the Psalm you quoted were the angels, not God. Do the research and see where else that same word was used in the Bible and you’ll discover what I’m saying.

        • In the Bible in Genesis… it states “Let us make man…” the Bible is referring to Jesus.
          There are no other GODS that existed or exist now. There is only one.. and Bible states
          that many times in many scriptures. If you read John 1:1-8, it reads as follows:
          1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

          6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

          Jesus was always with GOD… the ONLY GOD.

    • ANONYMOUS SAVED says:

      I understand your frustration moondoggy. I felt how you feel; but the bible explains that as well. As for those souls who perished before the time of JESUS; they who died believing a saviour would come (using the teachings of the OLD TESTAMENT) would go to paradise to await him.(JESUS) Then (once JESUS rose from the grave) they would all ascend up to heaven together and everyone there after. There are several verses corroborating this. -(Luke 23:43/(Matt. 27:54-55)/(Rev. 20:11-15). And there is even a verse on those who might not hear his word,- Romans 1:18-20. I sincerely hope this helps, also (this is my personal feeling- people “of GOD” instinctively know him, they really dont need to be taught, like good and bad we just innately know things,from or LORD. How else would we know?

  4. rautakyy says:

    Once again you hit the spot. Now, if there actually existed a benevolent, all knowing and all powerfull god, your text has put this god into a situation where this entity has the moral obligation to answer your question (and more or less all of them), not only to you, but your entire audience in the internet. Because such honest questions may otherwise lead honest and good people away from the grace of this god and to the everlasting torture in the alledged afterlife. Yet, there is no divine intervention, is there? I wonder why? This dilemma has nothing to do with the so called free will, because it is not our will, that makes us believe this or that true. Or it should not be. Since, if we only will ourselves to believe something, that does not make it so. That is the method wich usually takes us as far from any objective truth as possible. That is the way we humans are. We believe what is plausible to us. Sorry if I went somewhat off topic here…

    Anyway, one guy in the Bible I have allways felt a bit sorry for is Joseph, the husband of Maria the virgin. I mean he is the most well known husband throughout time to have his brand new wife carry a son, that is not his own. Why did this god impregnated a married woman? Is that not against both natural and divinal “law” to impragnate a nother mans wife?

    • Hummm… interesting point, I never really thought of that. According to Deut. 22:13-21, if a man sleeps with a woman who is pledged to be married, “You shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife.”

      So after Mary had her vision, she should’ve gone to others in town and cried “Help! God is trying to impregnate me!” And after God successfully impregnated her, the town should’ve called for God’s execution for violating His covenant. After all, isn’t God bound by His own covenant? If so, then He should executed. Or perhaps that’s why Jesus had to die, both for our sins and because he violated Joseph’s wife. 😉

      Oh, but wait… according to Leviticus 18:7 and Deuteronomy 27:20, it is also a violation of God’s law to have sex with your mum. So if Jesus is also His father, and he impregnated his mother, then God is still violating His own Law. (Crap, now my head hurts.)

      The other possibility is that it’s all made up. Maybe Joseph just couldn’t resist temptation, and they had premarital sex, and the whole thing got blown way out of proportion. What’s more likely, that a young couple would want to have sex, or that God would impregnate a woman? Or maybe the virgin birth story is a common theme with many religions, and this idea was just borrowed from one of those.

      • Kate says:

        ur thinking WAY too much into this. lololololololololol God never contradicts himself so maybe we need to think of something else? 😄

      • Innocent says:

        What you need to understand is that you cannot understand the Scripture from human wisdom. Remember that the birth of Jesus Christ and how it’s going to happen was foretold long before it happened. God is God and you’re mere human.

        This is how you measure up with God: Think about the universe as wide as you can imagine, and when your head is about to explode, stop. Now, tell me, beyond the widest universe you’ve imagined, tell me what’s out there. It is endless as we know, so beyond all we can imagine, what’s still outside this beyond? This is how we measure up with God who made all things.

        • “What you need to understand is that you cannot understand the Scripture from human wisdom.”

          So how is one to understand it? If we insist it requires the revelation of the Holy Spirit, then why are there so many Christian denominations? Who has the Holy Spirit’s interpretation, so that I might know who is correct?

          If we do not know what it means, and Christians cannot agree on who does, then everyone just goes around thinking THEY know what it means, but no one is ever sure who is actually correct (if anyone is).

          You say God exists and has infinite knowledge, please provide clear evidence for this claim.

          As I covered in question #14, the Bible seems incredibly ignorant of how the world works. It would’ve been very easy for God to describe things like planetary orbits and disease-causing microbes, but he seemed to have no knowledge of these things.

          • Innocent says:

            Well, you cannot understand the Bible by mere puny human mind. When God classified some food as unclean and thus not good for food, why do you think He said that? To help you, He knew about the disease-causing micro organisms and chemicals that these unclean animals harbor. Scientists are just catching up with the fact that the so-called seafood that the Bible calls unclean actually have unholy amount of chemicals in them. Guess what they are saying, limit the amount you you eat, et cetera. The pig, for instance, harbors a lot of disease-causing “MICRO” organisms that keep making those that eat them sick till today. What have your protestant pastors told you, “that they’re now clean” by some clever twists of the scripture with no regard to the context.

            Now, these guys that wrote the Scripture then telling the Israelites that these are unclean were not scientists and didn’t have the high tech gadgets that we have today. How did they know that these specific animals that in so many ways looked like their clean counterparts harbor disease-causing microbes? Think about it.

            If you read Revelation 12:17, it says: “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

            These people that satan is going to attack keeps the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Do you know why they’ll be attacked? I know your pastor didn’t tell you why and you probably never paid any serious attention to this passage. The answer is in Revelation 3, and that answers your question as to why we have many denominations today that seem not to agree on everything.

            When you read Isaiah 40:22 and compare it with the now accepted fact by scientists that the universe is expanding and the earth is round, what does it tell you about the writers of the Bible? How did they know that? When did we come to accept that the earth is round? Not quite long! Maybe you’ll now tell me that the earth is not really round but flattened at the poles, but note Job 26:7–He stretches out the north over empty space;
            He hangs the earth on nothing.

            How did Job know this with no gadget, no plane to fly into space, etc? These writers knew it because they were inspired to write them by no other than the one that created them.

            So, to summarize: It takes One with infinite knowledge to know, thousands of years ahead of scientists, that some animals harbor disease-causing microbes. It takes One with infinite knowledge to know, without flying into space, that a body as massive as the earth is round and hangs on nothing, thousands of years ahead of astronomies; that the universe is expanding.

            Scientists have made so many assumptions that led to deaths and lawsuits due to limited knowledge of the world we live in. Think about this, evolution-based education has led scientists to believe that the appendix has no use, only to discover that actually does.

            Finally, as you might want to know, prophecy matches on regardless of what you think or believe. The Jews told Christ that they were never in bondage to anyone, cf John 8:33. They forgot so quickly about their time in Egypt. Did that stop the prophecy from taking place? No, of course! They went into captivity as you yourself now know.

  5. caleb says:

    The truth is that hell is a mistranslation and everyone eventually gets saved. what-the-hell-is-hell.com

  6. truthseeker says:

    Firstly, Just because you havent got the answer doesnt nullify the question nor does it mean that one doesnt exist. It is not up to you or I to decide who gets saved or who doesnt just like in a court of law it is not up to the witness or anyone else to decide the rulling, except the judge (loose example but i hope you get the point). the one whom we are all accountable to will decide. HE has the answer and the final say. Anything any of us would say would either be inclusive or speculation. We know this though….that our God is just, fair, merciful, faithful, long suffering, and loving. I have seen him be all this in my own life, That is more than enough for me…. You, my brother, are confused and your focus and interpretation of scripture is equallled only by your misapplication of it. If one didnt know their scripture and the God they serve, they could easily be misled by your seemingly logical and sound arguments. I hope you can get right….the things of God are not for the clever, intelligent, witty or wise by earthly standards, but those who humbled themselves in faith before the one whose wisdom surpasses human understanding. At God’s own discretion and by his power, he reveal the answer to some of the hard questions we all face if he sees fit. other answers are to be found through prayerfully searching scripture. not searching it with the mind to show what you perceive as inconsistencies or inaccuracies or fallacies. one digs themselves deeper into darkness like that.

    • Thanks truthseeker,

      Are you really interested in seeking truth? Are you REALLY willing to accept that “inconsistencies or inaccuracies or fallacies” might exist because God is possibly a flawed fabrication of man’s own mind? Or are you already dead-set on defending the idea of God regardless of the logic?

      You seem to say that the ONLY path to truth is to prayerfully search scripture, and not through thinking things through with your own mind. But the only answers that such methods will yield are those you’ve already decided are true. How did you decide they were true? And isn’t it the battle cry of every religion to “Stop thinking and start believing!”?

      My goal is to see if such problems exist because of man-made errors, or if they can still be reconciled with Christian ideals. I humbled myself before God for over 30 years, just accepting that all mysteries were beyond human understanding. But I’m starting to think that maybe these are just excuses we offer ourselves in order protect our beliefs. We have only been around a few years, but Christianity has been around for over 2000 years, and has learned how to cleverly defend itself against attacks.

      I see nothing wrong with logical and sound arguments (and they’re certainly better than the alternative). If God’s Universe is logical and sound, then it will speak to intelligent creation. Otherwise, it speaks to a lack thereof.

    • Kristen says:

      Amen! I laugh when I see people try to figure out the creator of heaven and earth. The bible has more evidence and arftifacts to back up it’s claims than any book in the world it has over 600 geographical artifacts in many different locations than the Theory of Evolution which is slightly below 60? And was PROVEN to be wrong and still placed in public schools.lol.
      I have seen cancer patients healed on the spot the deaf hear and blind see with my own eyes at my church!the mute have spoken! OMG why don’t you just research miracles in the name of JESUS? People all over the world from all different religions call on the name of Jesus after having visions and dreams from him. HE IS AMAZING!!!!! Thats all the evidence I need. No doctor,scientist,muhhamad,nor Buddha can do the things I have seen all over the world.
      He healed my friends heart which doctors said was impossible…it’s 100% healed!! I can go on and on….but I came across this by mistake figured I’d respond this one time. 🙂
      Be blessed and encouraged,
      in Christ Jesus,
      Sis.Kristen

      • Hi Kristen,

        I haven’t written on miracles yet, but I certainly plan to.

        I know there was a two million dollar study on prayer, which found that people who were prayed for fared no better than those who were not. Because prayer has never been proven to be effective, the AMA cannot recommend it, and your insurance won’t cover it. Why is it that scientists can correlate the DNA of all living things, but can’t prove prayer works when it’s so obvious (to believers) that it does?

        I have to wonder why God would choose to heal your friend, but then turn his back on 10 million children ever year. Perhaps those 5 year-olds just don’t pray as fervently as your friend?

        I have a friend (a relative) who was born with a hole in his heart. His parents were VERY strong believers (co-pastors in an Assembly of God church) and they prayed for their son for many years. Finally, they had no choice but to let surgeons cut into him and close the hole in his heart.

        So here’s what I think: if 100 people have a disease that is 99% fatal, almost ALL of them will pray for healing; the one person who naturally recovers then goes on to say that their prayer was answered, and presto, we have another miracle.

        I too have seen the deaf hear and the blind see, only to follow up and find out they weren’t really all that deaf, or all that blind to begin with; these results are easily misinterpreted. Do you know anyone who used to be an amputee (and can prove it) and God healed them? Because this would be something that would be much harder to fake. If God could just cure a few amputees, or at least show up to a few studies on prayer and start healing people, we might have some actual evidence that praying to the name of Jesus is as effective as you say. Until then, we have no credible evidence that says prayer is any more effective than a placebo; we’re long on stories, short on evidence.

        Regards,
        500Q

  7. Kate says:

    well im no theologist but i do know my Bible for the most part and it says in the book of Revelation that in the last days noone on Earth will ever be able to give the excuse that they never heard the gospel because all will have heard the name of Jesus Christ. it’s up to them whether or not they want to accept him into their lives and make him Lord and Saviour. God has given us free will but he still calls each and every one of us to salvation. It’s up to us to answer……….and THAT’S where the true question lies. Do we want to accept him?

    • Howdy Kate,

      Hearing about Jesus is one thing, believing he is a god is quite another.

      Lots of people have claimed to be gods and messiahs, should we believe in them, too? Where do we draw the line, exactly? Because without some serious evidence, they’re all just empty claims.

      (By the way, I’m also a god… please send money.)

  8. Anonymous says:

    in response to blog 28: “he who thinks he stands, take heed lest he falls” You seem to be wise in your own eyes but he who has eyes to see let him see but a fool!
    Your interpretation of scripture and/or your logic is an abomination. To blow your argument out of the water I will address only the first two verses mentioned on which your discourse follows.

    Romans 4:15- the entire purpose of Paul making the statement “For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, there is no transgression” is to point out the absolute importance and necessity of Christ’s sacrifice, faith in Christ satisfies the demand of the law so in Christ there is no law thus no transgression! That should be blatantly obvious from the supported chapters and the purpose of the entire book of Romans. Your attempt to misuse scripture is the same attempt satan tried on Jesus in the wilderness, good try.

    John 15:22-the sin Jesus is referring to in this verse is the sin of unbelief in Him, not the sin of transgressing Gods law which they were abundantly clear about do to their atoning ceremonies at the temple, especially the inner sanctuary Holy of Holies. If Jesus hadn’t come they would still be dead in their sins just like you and me. Yet a loving God took it upon Himself to pay for your penalty and mine but it is not imputed to our account until it is accepted. My prayer for you is that you will accept the free gift while you can for salvation is found in no other name but Yeshua!

    • “You seem to be wise in your own eyes but he who has eyes to see let him see but a fool! Your interpretation of scripture and/or your logic is an abomination. To blow your argument out of the water I will address only the first two verses mentioned…”

      Please enlighten me, I am always willing to learn, but there’s no need to be a self-righteous, know-it-all, douche about it. You’re not going to convert me by insulting me.

      “..faith in Christ satisfies the demand of the law so in Christ there is no law thus no transgression.”

      So Jesus comes along and fulfills the law, and those who are “in Christ” do not have sin, because there is no law under Christ. In other words, this place where you find “no law” is in Jesus, not where the gospel has not reached.

      But Romans 5:12-13 says, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man… sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.”

      Here, Paul doesn’t seem to be describing Christians as the place where there is now law. Rather, he describes a time “in the world before the law was given.” And what happened in this time before the Law? Sin was not charged against them.

      Romans 5:20 continues: “The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…”

      It was nice of God to increase his grace and all, but it seems it wouldn’t have even been necessary if He didn’t bring the law. But presumably, there were places untouched by this law, and in those places their sin was not charged against them until the law came.

      John 15:22 conveys the same idea, even if it’s just another “increase in grace.” In places still untouched by the law, it could be argued that there was no sin charged.

      “If Jesus hadn’t come they would still be dead in their sins just like you and me.”

      Really? Modern Jews don’t seem to think they’re dead in their sins. They point out that sins can be atoned for without atonement sacrifices, or even Jesus, according to verses like II Chronicles 7:14, Ezekiel 18:21-22, Ezekiel 33:14-16, Jeremiah 36:3, Isaiah 55:6- 7, Jonah 3:6-10, Daniel 4:27, Hosea 14:1-3, and Proverbs 16:6. We wouldn’t be dead in our sins, we would just obtain salvation differently.

      • ANONYMOUS SAVED says:

        One thing I think we need to concentrate on is not trying to literally interperate every single thing down to a science; because I believe we begin to miss the BIG PICTURE, which is to love JESUS and that in turn brings us closer to GOD. Why or how could this possibly work you say? BECAUSE JESUS IS GOD INCARNATE.Or GOD in the flesh.
        I know this might seem hard for people to grasp but think of it this way. We have GOD- this ALL MIGHTY DEITY, who created us out of love and wanted all the best for us. Then comes Satan, who for all intents and purposes of his own he decided first that he didn’t like us; and that he didn’t think GOD knew what he was doing by creating us. He then believes himself to be greater than GOD because he apparently saw in us a flaw that the REDEEMER didn’t( not really)
        Basically if you look at the facts of that, satan was the first to sin. He was the ultimate bringer of that awful knowledge.He was then shown his place by GOD and was cast to the very earth he condemned. Think of this and how angry he must have felt; he would probably do anything to get back at GOD at this point. How much more fitting than to try and prove to him(GOD) how wrong he is about “his precious earthlings”.
        We know that satan wanted to be revered as the most high by the ones who mattered not at all to him other than beating out GOD. He has plotted since the creation of man to bring a separation of man and GOD, and so far a lot of us are letting him win by even questioning his love and loyalty to human kind. So when GOD see’s the lengths that satan was going to corrupt his word he knew he had to do something that would enable ALL OF HUMANITY to be free of satan’s grip if they just believe it and act upon those beliefs.( which most of us naturally do) The thing satan knows that we seem to have forgotten is that even though HE was cast to earth first he was NOT here before GOD. How could he be? So why would it be important for us to remember him (GOD) through CHRIST? Because CHRIST was GOD come to earth to live as man through flesh. He obviously couldn’t manifest all the powers of his DEITY form possessing only the flesh of man. That is also why he is referred to as the “the son of man”.
        The thing satan doesnt want us to know or remember is that God came in order to save us from HIM! He knew that when adam and eve sinned in the garden of eden that there would come a day he would have to show man his love and loyalty, just like he requires our faith and works for him.
        He chose to come so that ALL might have a chance, but satan has corrupted and perverted that message along the way.There were many things done in the name of THE LORD. that he didn’t have a thing to do with. But, society tells us all these crazy things about things that JESUS supposedly did or said. Tell me, why do they seem contradictory to what you believe is true/ Maybe they are or maybe they were interperated wrong. who knows for sure.But there are more undisputable proofs that have grounded many a faith in him by his word. Think of it another way. If your argument is that JESUS didn’t exists at all; why then, are people trying so hard to prove he didn’t exist but no one questions satan’s existence. That’s awfully strange. Or why would satan model himself like the most high like he was JESUS.
        i’m sure you’ve heard this as well. He wants to have us all believe that he is CHRIST RETURNED. If there were no CHRIST, why then HE WOULD HE GO THROUGH ALL OF THE TROUBLE.? I don’t get it…

  9. What a fascinating blog. Thank you for providing an evidence based discussion regarding the concept of God, Jesus, etc. It is evidently clear that people of religious “faith” who do not (or cannot) bring simple logic to the table of discussion are living in a bubble. Worse, that bubble is clearly not applicable to the real physical world where we all live. All of these faith traditions were created centuries before the advent of science and scientific evidence. None of them were created to be books of scientific proof. Yet many adherents, in the modern age, use their books of faith as “evidence” nonetheless! Remarkable. Of course Galileo was branded a heretic in his day for merely proving the sun as the center of our universe! His proof did not fit with the “evidence” of the bible! I wonder how many people of faith still regard epilepsy as demon possession? Dinosaur fossils disprove the biblical “birthday” of the earth. Hundreds of these examples are in the bible, YET, “believers” still insist of the “proof” of “God’s Word.” I have come to the conclusion that there is NO WAY to have a rational discussion with a “believer” if they disregard logic from the very beginning by insisting that “God’s Word” is without error! They will never be open to logic as long as logic is secondary to ancient writings!!! But remember this, the God who “loves us so much” is the same God who killed every living being in The Flood! Babies and all! It’s the same “loving God” who crushed babies heads against stones through Joshua’s leadership! The book of Revelation speaks for itself to this “loving God” who seems obsessed with blood and suffering! Which brings me to Gandhi’s answer about Christianity (I paraphrase): I like Jesus, but not the followers so much!!!

  10. Innocent says:

    All these argument arise because main stream Christians have warped the Scripture. If you need clear answer from the Scripture about all these, contact me and I’ll clarify these for you. The answers are in the Bible but you have to look for it with no preconceived idea.

    • Hi Innocent,

      By all means, if you have a method of interpreting the scriptures that all mainstream Christianity has missed, please enlighten us. Why hide this truth under a bushel by only sharing it with me alone? Which religion is it that holds this correct interpretation? Or are you the only one who is privy to this inside information?

      500Q

  11. Anonymous says:

    Well, you’ve 500 questions and thats a lot. So, to help us moving forward, let’s be addressing them one after another with the most burning or confusing and gradually walk our way through them.
    I promise you I’m patient and promise me too that you’ll be patient and wouldn’t go kicking your cat or dog, lol.
    Now to get started with my own question, can someone tell me which of these came into existence first from the theory of evolution, the bee or the flowering plants? Both depend on each other and wouldn’t have existed before the other.
    Also, of the bird and the egg, which one came first.
    Let’s go.

    • Hi there,

      Both good questions.

      To answer your first question, the latest research is pointing to bees (see the NY Times article below), and this seems reasonable. Plants use food and flowers to attract bees and animals. Plants that can appeal to bees and animals have their pollen and seeds spread more widely (and can become more successful) than those that don’t.

      http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/23/science/which-came-first-bees-or-flowers-find-points-to-bees.html

      Symbiotic relationships are seen in many species, because often times one species can forge a mutually beneficial relationship with another.

      Now, before you suggest that God invented these symbiotic relationships, consider other unfortunate symbiotic relationships, like that of head louse, or that of fish and the Cymothoa Exigua, which eats the tongue of its host and replaces it with itself. Watch the video below and ask yourself: “Is this really the design of a loving creator? What did this fish ever do to God?”

      http://video.pbs.org/video/2334359551/

      As for your second question, the egg came long before the bird. Before birds were birds they were dinosaurs, and before dinosaurs were birds they were egg-laying reptiles, and before that they were fish. In the transition from sea to land, reptiles needed a way to keep their eggs from drying out, so a hard outer shell turned out to be more beneficial than a soft one. Even today, humans embryos have a yolk sack, which we no longer need because we get our food from the umbilical cord. The yolk sack is an atavism left over from our egg-laying ancestors.

      500Q

      • Innocent says:

        If that link you pointed to becomes proven to be true, what did the bees thrive on before the arrival of the flowering plants. Maybe they fasted. You want to believe on hypothesis upon hypothesis upon hypothesis, but you refuse to believe in evidenced reality.

        That you don’t understand something does not mean it’s not there. If you think it cruel on the fish and the Cymothoa Exigua you mentioned, maybe you would stop eating because eating is causing harm to some organism out there.

        When you say that the egg came before the bird, just listen to yourself carefully. How can that be? Biologically, we know that the egg is a product of the male and female bird, so where in the world did the egg come from before the existence of the these male and female birds that had to mate to produce an egg? Or maybe as they evolved, they came to realize that they need to come together to produce an egg! Ridiculous!

        Now, think about this critically: There are laws which me and you know and believe exist. Such laws include the law of gravity, etc. These laws DO NOT care whether you believe in their existence or not. They do not care whether you’re ignorance of their existence or not. For instance, if you leave your two year old to care for himself on the roof of a three story building and he eventually falls off the edge to the ground, gravity does not care how inexperience or ignorance or innocent he is, it will take its toll on him and the result, you guess it. This is the same with all the laws that man discover over time. Lives have been and are still lost because man didn’t really understand the laws surrounding the adventure they got into. As an engineer, I’m always cautious of venturing into an uncharted territory because these laws don’t care about my ignorance of their existence.

        Just as we have these physical laws, there are spiritual laws in place as well. And if you disobey these laws, too bad; you’ll reap the automatic consequence just as with the physical laws. But thank God who put all these laws in place, He’s teaching us about these laws so we don’t make mistakes of ignorance and reap the ugly consequence. So, you can believe it or not, the consequence will not change.

        Again, to restate the Bible’s position to the initial question, no one is going to heaven as an inheritance. Those who have not heard the gospel will be given the opportunity to hear it after the return of Jesus Christ. That is what the Bible says.

  12. Pingback: Day 54 | In Excelsis Deo

  13. There is Truth says:

    Reading all these are challenging and also “proof” that man uses very little of his brain capacity. BTW, I am guilty too. This response is not to go into details of my statements (that would be days and pages) but just to put some food for thought on the table.

    One must first decide if we originated from God or from nothing. BOTH TAKE FAITH. If from God, then there is CREATION from an intelligence that we could never even come close to comprehending and this would include the depths of His love too. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t glean from the senses, cranial capacity that we do use and spiritual enlightenment, since I believe we are spiritual beings.

    IF we came from nothing, everything is by chance and accident and the observable complexities such as DNA are mistakes or “lucky shots” that forged their way through millions of years. For those of us that are not at the top of biological complexity speaking tour, then youtube has some very rich animated resources that will bedazzle with reality what really goes on inside a cell. (such as protein synthesis) When you see everything working together in ultra precision that demands all the components doing their part or it will not succeed, just ask yourself, creation or chance?

    Concerning God and eternity and man. Deut. 32:4 – “He is the Rock, His work is perfect, all of His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.”
    This tell me that there are no mistakes. There is no one in hell that is making an appeal and nobody sneaks in the back door to heaven. Because of His attributes, I can be very confident that placement in eternity for ‘those who have not heard’ those who come under His foreknowledge or any other heading, will be in their justified place. Whew! I sure am glad I am not in that position.

    About Jesus Christ. He is either who the Bible says or He is one of the greatest deceivers of all time. When the Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, that was easy for me to develop a conviction. I had no problem at all realizing that I had sin (imperfection) in my life and could never enter into a perfect place (God’s presence / abode / heaven) on my own merit. Through study, searching and ultimately the action of faith, I received Jesus as my Savior to take away all my sin and He justified me with His Righteousness. (2 Cor. 5:21) I knew at that point that He saved me. The guilt was removed from me as having to pay for my unrighteousness. No theological argument can ever take this away from me as it burns in my heart even as I write. My Lord has been all through HIStory burning it in peoples hearts. Luke 24:27 says that Jesus showed the disciples all throughout the Old Testament scriptures places concerning His presence and actions and it burned in their hearts. One reason I believe that God wrote and preserved His Word is because I know that man could not. The Holy Spirit, given residence in the believer at the moment of salvation, reveals what He has written. (remember, I am saving pages of scripture and supportive thought)

    My conclusion is if you don’t agree with me that is ok. Truth will reign no matter what my or your thought is. If your thought is different, I hope that you have perfect peace with your conclusions about your savior and your eternal destiny. It will be either the one described in Rev.21:22-27 or that of Rev.20:11-15.
    I do enjoy the Spirit confirming in me the work He has done. 1 John 5:12,13 If you have the Son you have this life, if you do not have the Son you do not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” It has spoken volumes to me that all the disciples that saw Jesus after His death and taken up in the ascension all CONTINUED to their death. I think I will do the same.

    • Hi There is Truth,

      Thank you for taking the time to write. I’m going to chime in with a few thoughts, but you don’t agree with me, either. 🙂

      “One must first decide if we originated from God or from nothing. BOTH TAKE FAITH.”

      Actually, it’s also possible that something has always existed (in one form or another). Whether God, or matter, one or the other must’ve always been around. The primary difference being that we can establish beyond reasonable doubt that matter exists, I’m not so sure we can say the same for God. (See questions 5 and 6 for more details)

      “Concerning God and eternity and man. Deut. 32:4 – ‘He is the Rock, His work is perfect, all of His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.’ This tell me that there are no mistakes.”

      How can ALL of his work be perfect if evil results? If I make a perfect car, it is flawless. The moment something fails in it, I am no longer a perfect creator, because that is not what I would’ve wanted. Logically, if ALL is perfect, and there are no mistakes or imperfections. This also means that all is going according to God’s will, there is no evil, and there is no reason for God to call any person or action evil.

      “Because of His attributes, I can be very confident that placement in eternity for ‘those who have not heard’ those who come under His foreknowledge or any other heading, will be in their justified place.”

      Do you really believe that some people deserve to be eternally punished? How could a good God allow for such a thing?

      If God is perfect, then he lacks for nothing. He doesn’t even need to create man, because he is perfectly content without them. In fact, why create mankind at all, when doing so will just bring eternal suffering into a universe where there was none?

      I’m glad that you are confident that God exists, but I am not sure sure. The evidence you offer for this conviction is how you feel, but I’ve seen many people claim that God has led them to believe in one religion or another based on how they feel (see question #47), so I can logically deduce from this that feelings cannot used to accurately determine truth.

      500Q

      • There is Truth says:

        I am a little intrigued that you can answer so many comments with some rather thoughtful responses! Also, your wit and way with words does shine at times. But like me you do miss the mark at times too.
        The whole point about beginnings is that there no rock EVER that cared about you. But God on the other hand IS love. On a yes or no basis, do you believe that ALL matter was in the space of a pin head and then exploded? All 100 billion + galaxies with their billions of stars each?

        The point of Deut. 32:4 was that I have confidence in God being perfect and just in all His ways especially in eternal destinies. But you knew that! You just wanted to throw out some weak car analogy to defer the true point.

        Do you really believe that some people deserve to be eternally punished? How could a good God allow for such a thing?

        I can’t even grasp that the Creator of the universe who was completely innocent and embodied the very essence of perfect goodness, would take the eternal punishment for the whole world. That He gave the same love toward those who stared Him down and said “crucify him”, as He did everyone else. That whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life. (How could a good God allow for such a thing?)
        People who are reading this and don’t accept His ways and salvation are choosing their own destination, stepping over the only way of life and saying, I can take care of it myself. Did you take care of yourself when you came into the world?

        Confident in matter but not so sure about God.
        Basically you are saying that the collision of a bunch of rocks popped out DNA. I feel the miracle of life points directly toward God. I think biological complexities to be explained away by chance and mutation over millions of years is the true fairytale. This is not a feeling. This is me using a limited portion of my brain capacity to see the evidence and say, “that’s a no brainer!”

        If you are right and there is no God then out eternal destiny is the same.
        If there is God and There is salvation in the Savior, then I don’t think we will be neighbors.

  14. markHisway says:

    This is from the website gotquestions.com; thought this may shed more light…

    Question: “Why does God require faith? Why doesn’t God “prove” Himself to us so there is no need for faith?”

    Answer: Our relationship with God is similar to our relationship with others in that all relationships require faith. We can never fully know any other person. We cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions are. Proverbs 14:10 says, “The heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy.” We are incapable of even knowing our own hearts fully. Jeremiah 17:9 says that the human heart is wicked and deceptive, “Who can know it?” In other words, the human heart is such that it seeks to hide the depth of its wickedness, deceiving even its owner. We do this through shifting blame, justifying wrong behavior, minimizing our sins, etc.

    Because we are incapable of fully knowing other people, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, a wife gets into a car with her husband driving, trusting him to drive safely, even though he often drives faster than she would on winter roads. She trusts him to act in their best interest at all times. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they will not betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships.

    If we cannot know our fellow finite human beings fully, how can we expect to fully know an infinite God? Even if He should desire to fully reveal Himself, it is impossible for us to fully know Him. It is like trying to pour the ocean (seemingly infinite in quantity) into a quart-measuring jar (finite)… impossible! Nonetheless, even as we can have meaningful relationships with others that we have grown to trust because of our knowledge of them and of their character, so God has revealed enough about Himself through His creation (Romans 1:18-21), through His written Word, the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:16-21), and through His Son (John 14:9), that we can enter into a meaningful relationship with Him. But this is only possible when the barrier of one’s sin has been removed by trusting in Christ’s person and work on the cross as payment for one’s sin. This is necessary because, as it is impossible for both light and darkness to dwell together, so it is impossible for a holy God to have fellowship with sinful man unless his sin has been paid for and removed. Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God, died on the cross to take our punishment and change us so that the one who believes on Him can become a child of God and live eternally in His presence (John 1:12; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 2 Peter 3:18; Romans 3:10-26).

    There have been times in the past that God has revealed Himself more “visibly” to people. One example of this is at the time of the exodus from Egypt, when God revealed His care for the Israelites by sending the miraculous plagues upon the Egyptians until they were willing to release the Israelites from slavery. God then opened the Red Sea, enabling the approximately two million Israelites to cross over on dry ground. Then, as the Egyptian army sought to pursue them through the same opening, He crashed the waters upon them (Exodus 14:22-29). Later, in the wilderness, God fed them miraculously with manna, and He guided them in the day by a pillar of cloud and in the night by a pillar of fire, visible representations of His presence with them (Exodus 15:14-15).

    Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, the Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. They chose instead to trust the word of ten men who frightened them with their stories of the walled cities and the giant stature of some of the people of the land (Numbers 13:26-33). These events show that God’s further revelation of Himself to us would have no greater effect on our ability to trust Him. Were God to interact in a similar fashion with people living today, we would respond no differently than the Israelites because our sinful hearts are the same as theirs.

    The Bible also speaks of a future time when the glorified Christ will return to rule the earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-10). More people will be born on the earth during that reign of Christ. He will rule with complete justice and righteousness, yet, in spite of His perfect rule, the Bible states that at the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will have no trouble raising an army to rebel against Christ’s rule. The future event of the millennium and the past event of the exodus reveal that the problem is not with God insufficiently revealing Himself to man; rather, the problem is with man’s sinful heart rebelling against God’s loving reign. We sinfully crave self-rule.

    God has revealed enough of His nature for us to be able to trust Him. He has shown through the events of history, in the workings of nature, and through the life of Jesus Christ that He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, all-holy, unchanging, and eternal. And in that revelation, He has shown that He is worthy to be trusted. But, as with the Israelites in the wilderness, the choice is ours whether or not we will trust Him. Often, we are inclined to make this choice based on what we think we know about God rather than what He has revealed about Himself and can be understood about Him through a careful study of His inerrant Word, the Bible. If you have not already done so, begin a careful study of the Bible, that you may come to know God through a reliance upon His Son, Jesus Christ, who came to earth to save us from our sins, so that we might have sweet companionship with God both now and in a fuller way in heaven one day.

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-require-faith.html#ixzz39ri9Xozq

    • rautakyy says:

      @markThisway, you do realize that your reply does not answer the topic question? Actually it has almost nothing to do with it.

      As for faith as trust, why do we have the two separate words? Could it be, that they do have separate meanings? What does the dictionary say?

      Your analogy of a wife trusting his husband is invalid as the wife has met her husband, knows him and his habits – hopefully – to have trust in him. The topic question here would be analogous to why would you trust the husband, or wife of someone you do not know and how could you be expected to trust someone, never having met them, but possibly having heard ugly rumours about them (and their driving skills)?

      Besides, being trusted does not mean one is trustworthy. How many wives have trusted their husbands driving skills invain? Has the god of the Bible shown to be trustworthy? No, it is an immoral entity, suffering from severe schitzofrenia, obvious fits of rage leading to genosides, offering a certain group of people totally tribally moralistic laws etc. and not even proven to exist. Would you trust a “jealous” person showing fits of rage and causing a plague on an entire nation like the Egyptians, just to fullfill his secret plans? I certainly would not. The story about the plague, is a good example of primitive culture coming up with a rather insignificant and weak god. Is it not? A truly omnipotent and benevolent god could have gotten his “chosen” people out of Egypt by dozens of not so gruesome and horrific methods, but then a benevolent and intelligent god would not have “chosen” any single people, if he wanted to convey a message to entire humanity, would it have?

      For a person to have “trust” in some other person the least of requirements would be to know that the other person at least exists. I could trust Gandalf all I wanted, and he seems like a trustworthy character, but as long as you have not proven he even exists, I have no particular reason to profess “trust” let alon faith in him. Correct?

      • MyAvatarIsAPygmyAtheistAlien says:

        Rautakyy: I would gladly place my trust in Gandalf over the God of the bible any day of the week 🙂 not only does he demonstrate his wisdom and compassion, he also proves his powers (didn’t even need a grand display, he made some real fancy fireworks, and successfully united multiple uncooperative races that despised each other – elves, dwarves, humans, hobbits) but he also fought SIDE BY SIDE with them… He knew he was more powerful than them, but he didn’t put himself on a pedestal to look down and condemn them for their weaknesses. Instead, he focused on their unique strengths. Good guy… God could learn a thing or two from him.

  15. markHisway says:

    Does God exist?

    Many arguments have been presented both for and against the existence of God. However, the vast majority of people believe in some form of God. The following are some of the more common arguments for God’s existence.

    Argument from Cause: This argument considers God the “First Cause.” In other words, everything that exists must come from something else and that something else is what we call God. Philosophically, this argument is presented as:

    – Everything that had a beginning had a cause.
    – The universe had a beginning.
    – Therefore, the universe had a cause.

    The first aspect, that everything that had a beginning had a cause, is based on the principle of causality. Nothing cannot produce something. The second part, that the universe had a beginning, is supported by many lines of modern scientific evidence. These include the second law of thermodynamics (that the universe is running out of usable energy toward disorder), the expansion of the universe, the radiation echo of the initial explosion of the universe (often called the Big Bang), among others. The conclusion is that the universe had a cause.

    Argument from Design: This argument proposes the following: Every design has a designer; the universe reveals complex design; therefore, the universe has a Designer. This design includes both natural and supernatural causes. Both the macro level (design found in the universe based on astronomy) and the micro level (design found at the cellular level) support the argument of highly designed and complicated forms of life that find no adequate explanation apart from an outside, powerful force capable of intelligent design. This Intelligent Designer opens the door for the existence of God.

    Argument for Morality: This argument follows a more internal logic that suggests that:

    – Every law has a lawgiver.
    – There is an absolute moral law.
    – Therefore, there must be an absolute Lawgiver.

    Some question whether there is an absolute moral law. Yet as C.S. Lewis notes in Mere Christianity, “The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. Or put it this way. If your moral ideas can be truer, and those of the Nazis less true, there must be something-some Real Morality-for them to be true about.”

    While postmodern philosophy attempts to deconstruct this argument by suggesting all absolutes of right and wrong regarding morality are relative, the existence of absolutes in the universe is undeniable. For example, two plus two cannot equal four and two plus two equal five at the same time under the same conditions. Likewise, many areas of morality suggest a universal sense of injustice regarding the wrongs of the world. Individuals may differ regarding exactly what is labeled justice and injustice, but every person has an innate sense of there being right and wrong. This morality has an origin and it is argued this original Lawgiver is God.

    Ultimately, the Bible teaches that the fool says in his heart there is no God (Psalm 14:1). Those who are honest will admit there is “something” behind the design of the universe and human life even if people disagree on what the something is. While there are arguments for the existence of God, faith also plays a role. Hebrews 11:6 says, “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” God desires that we seek Him, and rewards those who do. He has provided many ways to understand Him, including the created world and His Word (Psalm 19). Ultimately, those who come to faith in Him must do so through His Son Jesus Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 3:16; Acts 4:12; Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Read more: http://www.compellingtruth.org/God-exist.html#ixzz39tzGBqL8

    • rautakyy says:

      @markHisway, this comment is even further from the topic, than your previous comment. Why?

      Yes, many people believe a god exist, and many believe several do, but that verifies nothing of the existance of any of the suggested gods. Does it? To claim it matters would be a total fallacy from popularity. You do understand this, do you?

      You Christians like to refer to the second law of thermodynamics as if you had ever just heard of the one. You either do not know, that the first law of thermodynamics states: “…that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.” Or you are being very dishonest about the laws of thermodynamics. What ever the cause of the universe as we know it is, we are in no justified position to posit a mind, or a god to be the cause. Everything we know about minds, is that they are the products of a very long evolution in the material observable universe and everything we know about gods is that they are the answers primitive societies came up with to explain natural phenomenons, the reasons of wich they did not have the means to study. Sorry, but it is just illogical to fetch an answer to the origins of the universe from mythology.

      You wrote: ” the universe reveals complex design; therefore, the universe has a Designer.” Where do you see design? In asteroids colliding in deep space? In the universe mostly being formed from dust and void? If the universe is designed, as you would have it, then how do you know this? How would you know the difference between self-appearing universe and a designed one, if everything in the universe was designed by the same supernatural architecht? The claim that naturally appearing phenomenons, like asteroids, erosion, planets and stars were by design is simply silly. What kind of a moronic mind would design a universe look like it was just naturally appearing, indifferent and senseles?

      The argument from morality is also funny, as it assumes a “lawgiver” to morality. As if morality was not simply a value we give to human behaviour. Do we call it immoral when a wolf kills a deer in the forest? Why not? Do we call it immoral if a soldier kills an enemy in a battle? Do we call it immoral if a soldier kills an enemy infant in battle? Do we call it immoral, if a businessman takes a minor risk for great profit, if that puts in risk the livelyhood of a dozen people? What if it puts into risk an entire ecosystem, that no human lives, or livelyhood directly depends on? Morals is a result of us humans being social animals and from our understanding of our place in any given society and in the environment we depend on. There may very well indeed be an absolute of right or wrong conduct in any given situation. We are able to determine those as close as it is possible to objectively come to them in our subjective views by the possible results of our chosen actions or inactions by the quality of the information we have on the situation. Not by multiple mutually disagreeing silly interpretations of old books written by ignorant people in primitive tribal moralistic societies. The true source of morals is not some supernatural, or otherwise unnatural entity outside material observable reality, but our capacity to empathy and the ethics of the realization of the possible results of our actions and inactions. Both of wich are obvious evolutionary survival traits of all the social animals. Humans are just slightly more capable of evaluating the results of our actions, than most of our mammal cousins. To judge any situation by our sense of justice and conscience based on our capacity to empathy combined with the quality of the information we have on the possible outcome of our actions, or inaction is what makes us moral. Not blind obidience to any laws.

      You wrote: “Hebrews 11:6 says, “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” God desires that we seek Him, and rewards those who do.” This actually reveals the immorality of the god concept in the Bible. Why is the person who has faith and seeks your particular god, worthy of any rewards? When the same god is doing all it can to hide from us, why is such a search worthy of rewards? Where is the morals of that? Honestly? Belief is not something we choose. We believe when we are convinced, but search of truth and critical thinking do not lead to faith, but away from it. If a person chooses to believe something dispite of evidence, then that person is engaged in selfdelution and autosuggestion. Surely, you are not suggesting those are virtues? Faith is not a virtue, it is the very face of accepting stuff without evidence, and if any book tells you faith is a virtue, then that book is ultimately immoral.

      Now that we got that overwith, would you be willing to actually discuss the topic?

  16. markHisway says:

    In leaving these links, let it be known they reflect my stance on scripture, God’s Word, the Holy Bible.

    Here’s a link, for the topic at hand:
    http://www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/what-about-those-who-have-never-heard-about-jesus/

    This next part (scripture) won’t make any sense to you now, but I pray one day it does.

    Philippians 2:5-11
    . 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Blessings

    • rautakyy says:

      @markHisway, thank you for posting the link. Interresting, that it teaches the reader to tackle the question by a skeptic, but does not assume, that the Christian would have serious questions about the matter. What does that reveal to you? To me, it gives a very clear picture, that the writer of that site assumes Christians do not have questions about their own beliefs and that consequently, Christians are assumed by him/her to be unable to think. Do not worry, I think more highly of you lot than the writer of the site.

      Anyway, in short the site claims that: “No one will be condemned for not ever hearing of Jesus Christ. That person will be condemned for violating his own moral standard. “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” This raises a moral dilemma, since telling people of Jesus subsequently puts them into terrible peril, that they might have been good people following their own cultural moral standards, but shall be judged for having not accepted the Jesus suggestion, because it was culturally alien to them. Besides of that, it makes the entire spreading of the “gospel” a worthless effort, as everybody who had not heard of Jesus were divided into people deserving of eternal bliss by being good people and following their own moral standards, and those deserving of Hell by being immoral according to their own standards, by the feat of hearing the “gospel” become re-divided into those who get to the eternal bliss, by simply believing the (let us be honest) rather unplausible fairy tale, regardless what sort of morals they had, and to those who end up in eternal torment only by disbelieving the particular myth. Hardly the workings of a moral god deserving of any worship or even respect?

      Have you even read the original post by our gracious host? The link you posted does not answer any of the questions in the original post. Does it?

      The letter to Philippians makes perfect sense to me. Well, in a sense that I can interprete it to you in a far better way than any aplogetics, or priests ever have (how arrogant of me – I know). And for once I can make it in short: It is all about a demagogue (who never met the alledged son of a god) telling his followers that they should act in a certain way because, that is what the demagogue tells them this alledged son of a god wants of them. A way that the demagogue would prefer them to act in. It is totally immoral, as he makes clear, that the followers will recieve a prize for doing what he considers is the “right thing”. Being moral is all about the complete opposite of what Paul suggests in this letter to the Philippians – it is about doing the right thing, regardless of ever being rewarded for it. You do realize that? I think every adult person should understand as much, at least, to call themselves moral.

  17. markHisway says:

    rautakyy,
    The question, “If someone never hears the gospel, can they still go to heaven?” is posed by 500Q at the top of the page, correct?

    If, and correct me if I am wrong of my understanding of your beliefs, you say there is no Almighty God, or Son of God that is Jesus Christ, or a Holy Bible which is the Word of God, what would be the point of me telling you what my answer to the question would be?

    If you were really, truly interested in the answer, for wisdom’s sake, my answer would be, it is in God’s hands. He has given us all perception of Him through His creation, and writing on our hearts His Word, so we have no excuse. But just because we have been given this does not mean we respond to it the way we should. This is what institutes Christians to obey Jesus’ command, to fulfill His great commission. Until we come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, our Creator, we hate God, and run from Him. But if we seek after Him earnestly, He will reveal Himself to us, to you.

    A thousand times a thousand pardons, if I viewed you as perceiving God in a different way than mentioned above. Please correct me if I am wrong in your perception of Him.
    Respectfully,
    markHisway
    Blessings

    • rautakyy says:

      @markHisway, yes that is the topic. How does your comment relate to it?

      I suppose you are right, I hold no beliefs about any gods existing any more than I have beliefs in dragons existing. Nor do I believe in Jesus being the son of any god any more than I believe the Heracles, the Pharaos, or Alexander the Great were sons of any gods. I do believe there is this book called the Bible and I have actually read it. Have you, or do you just believe what got.questons.org tells you the book says? I am sorry, if you find this question offensive, but you do know, that only a small fraction of Christians have ever read the Bible and hardly any of them has understood it in the context it was written.

      I am a seeker of wisdom. But what do you mean has been given by “Him”? Nothing has been shown to have been “given”, but even if we assume, that something has been given it is no excuse for this god of yours to judge us. As what was supposedly given is clearly gibberish to by far most people and it would not be an excuse for your god even, if there ever existed just one person to whom it was unclear as to what your god meant. An entity that could make everybody understand can not possibly appeal to having given any information in order to judge those who have misunderstood the message. That would be totally unethical of that entity, would it not?

      You wrote: “Until we come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, our Creator, we hate God, and run from Him. But if we seek after Him earnestly, He will reveal Himself to us, to you.” Please read that claim through a second time. It is totally asinine and backwards to any imaginable ethics. It is a totally flawed and idiotic system. A no-win scenario to most people who do not happen to be born into a culture that indoctrinates them from childhood to not “hate” this particular story about a god and makes people seemingly unable to even percieve this inherent injustice within the system. Are you seriously suggesting that the creator entity of the entire universe is an idiot and a sadist to boost with?

      No need to appologize and thank you for the blessings, even though I do not share your superstition about such things, I can appriciate the sentiment. Have a good one yourself!

      • markHisway says:

        rautakyy,

        Glad to hear there are no hard feelings. J That’s not my intent. However, one of my intents is to challenge people in their thoughts and words, when I see a need to, at times. Also, quoting scripture is necessary for answers and a defense of what I believe in, so if you would bear with me, that would be great.

        You say, “I hold no beliefs about any gods existing any more than I have beliefs in dragons existing.”
        In the book of Job chapter 41 of the Old Testament, God is speaking to Job, describing his creation even further, in a great amount of detail. This particular creature, called Leviathan, is said in verses 19-21, sound very much like what ancient accounts describe as a dragon. So, if you were to ‘have beliefs in dragons existing’, it’s ok. Here’s an account where God is describing one!
        This link describes the like, also including the insect bombardier beetle: http://creationwiki.org/Fire_breathing_dragon

        As far as Jesus being the Son of God, in Matthew 17: 5 we read “While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”.
        Here’s another link to this topic: http://carm.org/jesus-son-of-god

        As far as the Bible, I am glad you believe there is this book (that’s definitely a great start!). I am also glad to hear you have read it. To answer your question here, so have I. You either believe it, or you don’t. Here’s one link to it’s credibility: https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/does-archaeology-support-the-bible/

        I fear you are very close in your assessment of Christians who haven’ t read the Bible. Many may just be self-proclaimed Christians, and not true Christians at all. True Christians continually seek God out in His Word, and thirst for more of His gracefully generous wisdom through the Bible.

        Here are some facts pertaining to The Bible:
        1 – The Writing of the Bible
        The Bible was written over a 1600 year period by approximately 40 men. The time of the writing was from 1500 BC to AD 100.
        2 – The Divisions of the Bible
        While the Bible is 1 book, it contain 66 smaller books. The books of the Old Testament were written before the birth of Jesus Christ and the New Testament covers the life of Christ and beyond.
        3 – Chapters and Verses
        Each of the books, except 5, are divided into chapters and verses. The 5 which aren’t divided by chapters are Obadiah, Philemon, 2 John, 3 John, and Jude. These are short books which only have verse divisions.
        Chapters were introduced to the Bible in 1238 by Cardinal Hugo de S. Caro. Verse divisions were not added until 1551 by Robertus Stephanus.
        4 – The Longest and Shortest of the Bible
        The longest chapter if the Bible is Psalm 119 with 176 verses. The shortest chapter is Psalm 117 with only 2 verses. Incidentally, the middle chapter of the Bible is Psalm 118. also Psalm 117.
        The longest book of the Bible is Psalms with 150 chapters, or psalms. It contains 43,743 words. The shortest book is 3 John with only 1 chapter and 299 words.
        The longest verse in the Bible is Esther 8:9 with 90 words. The shortest verse is John 11:35 with only 2 words, “Jesus wept.”
        5 – The Bible Claims to be God’s Word
        There are many books written about and by various religions. But the Bible is the only one which claims to be the actual words of God. Those who believe the Bible also believe that God inspired various people through the years to write down His actual words for mankind. The Bible says more than 3,000 times “thus saith the Lord.” It claims that the words which follow are quotes from God.
        6 – The Bible is Historically Accurate
        There were several secular historians who wrote about the events of the New Testament at the same time the Bible was being written. Josephus is the most well-known of them. He was a Jewish historian. Tacitus was a Roman historian who would have no benefit from not telling the truth. Both these men, as well as others, can be used to back up the historical accuracy of the Bible.
        There are historical discoveries regularly coming to light that continue to support the accuracy of the Bible. Merrill Unger, who compiled a Bible dictionary wrote, “Old Testament archeology has rediscovered whole nations, resurrected important peoples, and in a most astonishing manner filled in historical gaps, adding immeasurably to the knowledge of Biblical backgrounds.”
        7 – The Business of the Bible
        There are more than 168,000 Bibles either sold or given away per day in the United States according to the Gideons, Wycliffe International and the International Bible Societies.
        Historically it has been said that the Bible is the most sold book of all time. It is regularly on various best seller lists.
        The Bible has been translated into more than 1,200 languages.
        8 – The Bible Never Contradicts Itself
        There are no contradictions in the Bible. Various people claim to find contradictions but they have to take verses out of context to do so. When looking at the Bible as a whole and understanding its teachings there are no contradictions. This is amazing when one considers that the Bible was written over such a long period of time.
        9 – The Prophecies of the Bible
        There are more than 3,200 verses with fulfilled prophecy either within the Bible itself or since the Bible was written. But there are still more than 3,100 verses with unfulfilled prophecies.
        10 – The Writers of the Bible
        While there were at least 40 different people who wrote parts of the Bible, some were more prolific than others. The Apostle Paul wrote at least 13 books of the Bible. He may have also been the author of the book of Hebrews. Moses wrote the first 5 books.
        The Bible attributes more than 3,000 proverbs to King Solomon. These are not all written in the book of Proverbs. However, most of that book is said to be the proverbs of Solomon.

        Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/10-amazing-bible-facts/#ixzz30iOymPSY

        These are just a few of the sites, in lieu of http://www.gotquestions.org I have found supportive of my faith, as the Bible as text.

        Here’s a link to a book about the Bible as well: http://www.amazon.com/Begin-Journey-Through-Scriptures-Believers/dp/0890516308

        This is what I meant about not understanding the scripture:
        1 Corinthians 2:“13 And we impart this tin words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.4
        14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

        This is what it has on one who believes, seeking God out:
        Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

        You also call yourself “a seeker of wisdom”. Are you to be wise in your own eyes, or in the eyes of man? True wisdom comes from God’s Word, the Bible.

        Proverbs 1:7 – The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
        fools despise wisdom and instruction.

        If you are not fearing the Lord, and I mean that in a way you ‘fear’, or ‘respect greatly, something incredibly powerful (huge waves, lightning bolts, speeding semi truck on the highway, gravity, etc.), well beyond anything you can begin to fathom, than you are setting yourself up for a fall.

        We have to be true to ourselves. Seeking God through His Word is also what we were designed to do, but we rebel against that through our sinful nature, brought on by the curse from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. So no, I am not suggesting our Creator is an idiot, or a ‘sadist to boot with’.

        Is there a natural world? Yes. Does it contain supernatural phenomena? How could it not? Breathing the marvelous blend of nitrogen and oxygen that makes it possible for them to live, evolutionists refuse to acknowledge that the precise 79 percent to 21 percent mixture of gases was provided by something other than blind chance. http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/1/t/amazing-wonders-of-creation.aspx

        We humans can’t even create a grain of sand, yet many are guilty of denying the Creator. I watch nature shows, those that have bought into the evolutionary way of thinking (no God responsible), and what do I hear them utter? Things like, “ this particular animal’s claws are DESIGNED to not only climb up the tree, but to also climb down, unlike other animals closely related.”. Or something like, “This animal has adapted to the climates by this, or that.” God has orchestrated these attributes into His creation, so that we are without excuse for believing in Him. Those who don’t are suppressing the truth that is implanted inside.

        I leave you now with this quote from Psalms 139, vs. 13-15:
        …13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. 14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. 15My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

        Blessings

        • rautakyy says:

          @markHisway, thank you for the links and insight you took time to provide me with. I have no time now to comment the links, but I promice to do so later. As for your own thoughts (I am assuming what you typed here are your own views and not just borrowed from somewhere else), I would like to address some of them now.

          You posted a list of fun facts about the Bible, but how do you know these are infact facts? By having a trust into an authority of a fellow believer, who has researched into these matters? Do you not have any second guesses about the fact that a person with a deep conviction might be interpreting the sources through his/her faith and get the “facts” wrong as a result? This is a legitimate question, is it not? Faith contradicts logic. Does it not?

          How do these “facts” you refer to confirm your belief, that there is indeed a god behind this book? To me this sort of book is a rather feeble attempt to contact humanity if the attempt was made by an extremely powerfull entity. Do you see why? I mean, it is not very convincing even as propaganda, unless the subject was previously indoctrinated, or at least raised in a society that takes such claims at face value without any actual research into the veracity of the claims. You see appologetics are not a research into the veracity, they are mere attempts to excuse contradictions and logical fallacies.

          For example: “6 – The Bible is Historically Accurate.” This is an incredibly bold claim and I have run into several “secular” Christian scholars – especially among the older generations – that make this claim about some individual verses. But what does that infact tell us, that the book was written by people who lived approximately close enough to the times when the claimed events happened to include their own fancifull stories into some actual historical events. But as you refer to Josephus and Tacitus I have to ask have you read their comments on Christianity? Josephus does not mention the town of Nazareth as he lists every little village in that area. Archaeological excavations made in the area by a clergyman did not find there to have existed any settlement before the Byzantine era. In fact as the contemporaries of Jesus referred to Jesus as a “nasarene”, they meant he was a Jewish monk, not that he was from a place called Nazareth – hence the Bible is not historically accurate and if it is indeed the word of a god, then that god is subsequently lying to us. Tacitus tells us that the Christians are horribly immoral people. He also tells us, that there are dog-headed people beyond Sarmatia. Do you take him at face value? Neither Josephus or Tacitus confirm any of the supernatural claims made in the New Testament. Altough, we should expect them to, if such events as the dead rising from their graves during the crucifixion of Jesus as claimed in the Bible really took place. Should they not? These are just a couple of simple examples of how the Bible is not historically accurate and I can provide you with many more if you are interrested, or if you think you can tackle them. Are you, interrested?

          You wrote: “8 – The Bible Never Contradicts Itself” The Lord of the Rings does not contradict with itself, but it does not turn into an accurate description of anything real as a result. Does it? The Silmarillion does not contradict with the Lord of the Rings, even though it was written by a separate person based on the earlier scriptures of his predecessor. But the Bible does contradict itself, altough it should not, as the later editors and scribes were aware of the previous accounts. The main contradiction is that it claims to be the word of an all-knowing god, but the text is full of obvious ignorance of the reality of the material and observable universe. It does not strike an educated reader, who was not educated from childhood to presuppose it as divine, as anything especially clever. And further more, it contradicts with reality and logic, like in my example abowe.

          You mention: “9 – The Prophecies of the Bible” And I must confess I had not realized there are so many prophesies in the Bible as you would claim. Funny that, since I have read the book and I thought I had a pretty clear picture of the prophesies in it. However, the number of prophesies or even the percent of them coming true are beside the point when we consider wether the book is reliable or not. You see, it is the quality of the prophesies that counts. If I now predict, that I will next go to the toilet, it is a rather easy prophesy for me to fullfill, but it is also a very distinct prophesy, that can not be misinterpreted very easily. Further more it sounds credible enough, but you have no way of verifying it. And ultimately it is information that is totally meaningless to you as even if you could verify it someway, it would tell you nothing of me, not even if I am a reasonably reliable person or not. I wonder what all of these thousands of predictions in the Bible you refer to are about? What about the predictions that did not come true? Like Nebuchadnessar conquering Egypt?

          https://500questions.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/43-did-the-bible-accurately-predict-the-future-of-tyre-ezekiel-26/

          You say: ” True wisdom comes from God’s Word, the Bible.” But how do you know this to be true? If it is because the Bible says so, then you are on very thin ice, or rather using circular logic. Are you not?

          You wrote: “We have to be true to ourselves. Seeking God through His Word is also what we were designed to do, but we rebel against that through our sinful nature, brought on by the curse from Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. So no, I am not suggesting our Creator is an idiot, or a ‘sadist to boot with’.” Well, there is a bit of a logical dilemma here then. You see, if the book is the word of a god and true, as you suggest, but fail to provide any evidence of, then this god of yours is responsible for creating the the sinfull nature of humans and trapping them to end up with it. This is not a benign entity you describe. Is it? Who supposedly cursed Adam and Eve and in what logic or by whose sense of justice any person should be punished or even held responsible for the actions of their parents, let alone ancient ancestors? Should modern day US citizens be held responsible for the destruction of Indian Nations? Should the modern day Germans be held responsible for the actions of WWII nazies? Of course not! Why then should your god have any right to hold you, or I responsible for what Adam and Eve chose to do, even if they were not just fairy tale characters?

          You wrote: “We humans can’t even create a grain of sand, yet many are guilty of denying the Creator.” First of, all we humans can create a grain of sand. We can actually make stone today. We can even make synthetic diamonds. But even, if we could what does our inability to create inanimate natural objects have to do with us “denying” a concept of a creator entity, that has not, in any objective way, been verified even to exist? Has it? Who is guilty of what, in this scenario you suggest? The human who believes what sincerely convinces him/her, or the god that alledgedly could be able to convince everybody, but obviously chooses not to? Why?

        • rautakyy says:

          @markHisway, as a separate reply to your point about the Leviathan and the bombardier beetle, I have to say, that is a funny example. Thank you! 😉 My favourite story explaining dragons fire breathing abilities is from fantasy writer Michael Moorcock. Have you ever read his books? Altough I love his books and he has a way with words to create very plausible, but alas imaginary stories and explanations to various mythical elements like dragons, I still remain unconvinced of dragons and gods to be other than machinations of human imagination. Give the human mind some credit.

          I do not really follow what are you after with this story from Job. It is not as if it was ever intented to be a description of reality. It is obviously a rethorical story, based on some experiences of a man, who has hard time to serve his god, that along the story is proven to lack any sense of justice and morality and in wich the indifference of nature is explained by the nature of this god to be a moralist with might makes right sort of attitudes towards this human individual.

          Are you really suggesting, that dragons are not mythical, but an actual and real animals? Are you therefore also making a claim that any mythical entity as suggested by human folklore might be real as long as there is a matching pair to it in the Bible? I suppose that might be, but it is rather far fetched even as a possibility. Is it not?

          If there ever were some creatures, like the dragons, that we only knew through these collective mythologies of mankind, it would be hard to logically come to the conclusion, that the mythologies are infact accurate descriptions of reality, as long as we do not have any actual physical evidence of them. Correct? I personally think that there often are some real experiences behind mythologies, but that we should never take the stories at face value, if we have no other confirming evidence. The bombardier beetle and dinosaur phossiles are interresting in their own right, but to put the two together and conclude that the mythological beast must be true, is a leap of faith close to madness, in which anything goes.

          Now, dinosaurs and other saurian giant beasts have been extinct for over 65 million years. This is a certifiable fact. It has been scientifically proven. And science, after all, is the best method we have to come close to any objective truth. Because it is the only reliable and testable method to compare contradicting beliefs. Would you not agree?

        • rautakyy says:

          @markHisway, I try to answer all your many links in your previos post here in a less than systematical way, but in some order anyhow.

          Jesus the son of a god. To the ancient religiously minded Jews the meaning of the concept of “a son of god” meant a man who follows the sixhundred and odd commands alledgedly given by the god of Moses.

          To the many polytheistic nations and to many (if not most) lay-Jews in the times of the Roman Empire the concept of a son of a god meant such people like the Pharaos, Caesars, Alexander the Great, Hercules/Heracles, or even Achilleus. That is demigods, who were gods in their own right just a bit more human.

          The original Jesus cult – as described by Tacitus – is an obvious amalgamation of these two concepts. The fact that the Bible repeatedly refers to Jesus as a flesh and blood son of the Jewish god, reveals to us, that it was written not by the experts of Jewish religion, but by some other dudes and most likely not by any people who knew Jesus personally, because if Jesus the Nazarene was a real person, and not just a fabrication of the cult leaders (wich is historically speaking rather uninportant and impossible to prove one way, or the other), he seems to have been quite aware of the Jewish meaning of the concept.

          To your link about wether or not the Bible is supported by archaeology I would have much more to say than I have time, because I happen to have studied archaeology in the university. I try to explain to you now a bit about the methodology of archaeology and it’s actual findings in the Levant about the examples in the article you linked.

          Over all the article you posted is totally wrong simply because it “eats the raisins from the bun”. In the article is a collection, of archeological excavations and studies that could support the Bible, but it totally excludes the ones that do not. That is an asinine way to come to any conclusions, is it not?

          The ancient stone slabs describing a flood are hardly any evidence for the accuracy of the Biblical account of a great flood. Rather they reveal, that the ancient Hebrews and early writers of the Bible have been under influence of other cultures, as all cultures always are. No surprices there. The most anciet stories of the flood do not describe a global incident, but a local event in the Mesopotamia and the heroes are not in contact with the YAHWEH, El, or Baali, but with their local gods. There is no archeological evidence of a global flood. None, nada. Altough there should be, since such an event even if it only took some weeks should have left traces of it all over the planet. But there are none. Only these stories about floods around the world in ancient cultures, that rose around fertile river valleys, where you from time to time have destructive floods.

          The site describes evidence that the writers of the Bible were aware of the Egyptian laws and goes on to say that the Mosaic law resembles more of the Egyptian than the Assyrian laws, wich to me is confusing. Was not the law given to Moses by a creator god? Why then did that god have to borrow from the Egyptians? It would be proposterous to even think that the ancient Hebrew culture evolved in a vacuum, when it clearly appeared in an area full of different cultures and under constant cultural pressure from superior and mightier cultures. It is a virtual impossibility that the Hebrew would not have absorbed a lot of stories, legal concepts, supernatural concepts, and customs from the surrounding nations, some of wich actually conquered the Hebrew from time to time. Examples are a plenty from the concept of monotheism being obviously absorbed from the Egyptians – to that Jews in the Roman times, including Jesus himself, and his immidiate followers, were most propably Arameic speakers and not a “proper” Hebrews as such.

          Now, it is true, that the Mosaic laws are a set of segragation rules. An attempt to segragate the Hebrew tribes from the cultural impact of the major ethnic groups in the area. That is why eating pig or shellfish is a big no-no to your god as those were the goodies the Phoiniceans had been accustomed to. That is also why masturbation – a holy rite to the Egyptians – and certain kind of fabric an Egyptian product was forbidden. The laws are clearly an attempt to create a cultural identity to a group of pastoral people otherwise easily absorbed by other nations. But segragation itself, or if you please “apartheid” of this sort, causes trouble, and it seems like the very same problems are still in effect in the Levant today. Hence, segragation laws are inherently evil.

          The creator of the site also often refers to the superiority of the Bible in comparrison to other ancient sources, but does not provide any evidence of this superiority. It seems totally subjective to him/her. Why is the Mosaic law superior to the laws of Hammurabi, that they obviously imitate on many occasions? Because it resembles our modern secular concept of law and morals more, or less? Why is the Biblical account of the flood superior to the one in Gilgamesh epic? To me at least, the latter represents a lot higher literary achievement.

          The fact that the places referred by the Bible are to be found in the area where the book was originally written reveals nothing of the truth value of the supernatural claims it makes. Just like the fact that the places mentioned in the Quran are actual places has nothing to do with the veracity of the supernatural claims it makes. Or does the fact that Troy was found and excavated make the stories about the Greek gods in Iliad any more true?

          There is this proverb about “absense of evidence not being evidence of absence”, but in archaeology it sometimes is. If there is absence of evidence for something that should have left evidence of itself, then that actually serves as evidence of absense, like the global flood, the exodus, or Nazareth.

          If you understand my examples, you should seriously consider wether such sources are any good at getting closer to any objective truth. Right? I’d say you have been lied to and the maker of the site has ruthlessly abused your ignorance of the particular subject. But perhaps that person was just as ignorant. However, he/she who did the study and could have chosen not to exclude the contradicting evidence, because that person must have run into other sorts of evidence. Why do you think that person decided to right out lie about the subject? Or does religious motivation mold people into such, that they exclude evidence against their faith, but embrace anything that even slightly resembles like something that could support their faith?

          You wrote: “Is there a natural world? Yes. Does it contain supernatural phenomena? How could it not? Breathing the marvelous blend of nitrogen and oxygen that makes it possible for them to live, evolutionists refuse to acknowledge that the precise 79 percent to 21 percent mixture of gases was provided by something other than blind chance.” And you posted a link to a book about creation. I once again thank you for the curious link, but honestly I would rather, you would have this discussion by your own words and your own expressions, because it gets somewhat tiresome to have to answer such long winding stupidities behind the links.

          I suppose your objection to a naturally appearing and evolving reality without the supernatural force behind it would be according to this comment and link, that you have trouble understanding how something as complex as life could appear through mere chance. Right? I honestly do not see how this is related to the topic, but let’s have a go, because there is a very simple and natural explanation to the question at hand. The precise presentages of our athmosphere that fit us perfectly do so naturally, because we have evolved in the conditions that require us to thrive in these conditions, or not to evolve and perish. As many species have indeed done, that we know from the phossilic record. We have scientific evidence, that the athmosphere of the planet we inhabit has changed several times over hundreds of millenia that have preceded us and life has adopted traits to survive in these slowly changing climates. Claiming, that something fits the niche it fits into because of preciding design, is making the claim after the fact. Correct?

          Supernatural phenomena has never been verified on any level. Has it? That is how it could. There are natural explanations that we know of to most such wonders, as breathing, in the natural, observable universe around us. However, even if we do not have an explanation to some observable natural phenomena, we are not in a position justified to make up an explanation such as the supernatural, or borrow such from any particular mythology to make up for the gap in our knowledge and understanding. Why not? Because, every single time we have found a reasonable and verifiable explanation to a phenomena we before took as caused by the supernatural, it has been revealed to be a natural phenomenon. Not knowing natural explanations does not warrant imaginary explanations such as gods, spirits, supernatural or anything else unnatural. Does it?

  18. markHisway says:

    rautakyy,

    Glad to hear back from you! Thought I may have lost you, or my connection was off line.

    My beliefs in God’s Holy Word, the Bible, are very deep. We are to examine His Word, and continue to learn from it, in every day life.

    I have posted links below for you to examine, again, since the Biblical ones are parallel to my beliefs. Others are also for your information: definitions, etc.

    Why believe in the resurrection of Christ (also mentioning Josephus and Tacitus)
    http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection.html

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php

    Faith vs. Logic (science)
    http://www.gotquestions.org/science-God.html

    Apologetics?
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-apologetics.html

    Biblical Inerrancy –
    file:///C:/Users/Mark/Desktop/Does%20the%20Bible%20contain%20errors,%20contradictions,%20or%20discrepancies.webarchive

    Prophecy or prophesy?
    http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/prophecy.html

    Prophecy or prediction? There is a difference.
    http://www.learnthebible.org/prophecy-or-prediction.html

    Prophecy accuracy
    http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm

    Stones – something out of nothing
    https://blog.etsy.com/en/2014/sticks-and-stones-making-something-out-of-nothing/

    More something from nothing with stone – interesting story
    http://www.amazon.com/Stone-Soup-Secret-Something-Nothing/dp/1905430973

    Definition, to create (a grain of sand, for example)
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/create

    Do you have a link to the person/people/group that make stones? When you say, “make”, are you meaning ‘fashion’, or ‘fabricate’, rather than ‘create’? My meaning in the statement about sand, is, we can not put something (grain of sand) into existence from nothing. God can. God did. He is Our Creator.

    Yes, I would like to see the many more examples of where you know the Bible is historically inaccurate. I am interested in what you believe. What makes your sources credible?

    Where does the Bible contradict itself?

    Where is your evidence of “…the text is full of obvious ignorance of the reality of the material and observable universe.” ?

    Dinosaurs/dragons…why not? Wasn’t there talk in that article of an unexplained chamber that could have possessed such ‘impossible’ chemical reactions as to produce fire? This takes place in a little bug of today. Why not in an extinct dinosaur? Leap of faith? Why not? Close to madness? Could be perceived that way. Don’t you have faith in your beliefs? It would be like me now, trying to explain to someone from the 17th century, about real-time smart-phone calls: video transmissions. They’d be like, “What? Have you gone mad?!! How did that person get so small, and they’re inside that tiny box? And they are several hundred miles away? Don’t be ridiculous!!!”

    What leads you to believe Job’s story isn’t in any way a description of God’s creation, aka: reality? ch’s 38-40 (God speaks to Job), or all of the other ch‘s for that matter?

    The age of the earth: thousands or millions of years?
    https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-earth/

    Science:
    https://answersingenesis.org/science/

    I have one more group of questions, rautakyy:

    Do you believe you are a good person?
    Why would you believe that?
    By what standards do you hold yourself to?

    Blessings.

    • rautakyy says:

      @markHisway, I am sorry, but I have other things in my life as propably you do too. That is why it may take time for me to reply to you.

      Now there are simply too many links in your comment for me to address here. Perhaps I may look into some of them later just for curiosity sake. Would you be so kind as to continue the exhange by your own words. I do not recognize the authority of the apologetic pages because as I have shown to you in my previous posts they are indeed riddled with logical fallacies and some even with outright dishonesty.

      However, I am interrested as to what you yourself have to say about the topic.

      I have no doubts of the depth of your beliefs. I am merely interrested as to why do you yourself think they are worthy of the depth. You see, I think we should have good and logical reasons based on evidence to have beliefs, especially the deep ones. But we humans often have deep beliefs simply because of our particular cultural heritages. Such that we have never questioned, because they always felt obvious to us. Do you agree?

      No, I have no links to the people who make stones. You see, I get most of my knowledge from actual books. But it is no news, that the Soviets made stone from chosen elements decades ago. They even casted it into statues. Perhaps that could be called “fabrication”, but it is as close to making stone I can imagine happening in nature, or by a deity. Synthetic diamonds are made from the basic element of coal. What did your god use to make stone and diamonds from then, if not from basic elements? That is hardly putting anything together from nothing. Is it? But if you mean that your god made the basic elements, then you have to provide evidence for that claim. And as it is an extraordinary claim, the evidence must be in proportion. Correct? Old mythical histories are not evidence enough for such wild claims, because old mythical histories make all sorts of unverified claims about this subject. And no wonder – since people have always wanted to explain the order of things, but have had no scientific methodology to research wether their hypothesis had any truth value in them. Hence, such beliefs have been left on their own devices dependend on the individual to accept them on faith. Wich is a poor reason to have any beliefs as it does not require those beliefs to relate to reality on any level. Today scientific research has actually shown to us that all the more complex basic elements are formed from other more simple basic elements within the stars themselves. That is where the elements for minerals and as such for stones are formed naturally, but it still is not something from nothing. It is matter from energy. And as you propably remember, the first law of thermodynamics states: “… that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.” So where did the energy come from? The honest answer is not to guess a particular god made it, but to acknowledge, we simply do not know. What is so hard about that?

      You wrote: “What makes your sources credible?” Now that is a good and worthy question.
      I rely on science and the scientific method. Why? Because it is by far superior to any faith based ideas to understand the true nature of anything. Why? Because it is the closest thing to objective information we have. It strives for objectivity. It was originally developed by people who had all sorts of faith based beliefs, that they were convinced would be vindicated by a methodology, that would bring out as objective view as possible by human subjective minds to reach. What it has done is the opposite. It has proven, that objectivity is not dependent on the subjective faith based beliefs of anybody. As I said, I have studied archeology in University and I am almost painfully aware of the requirements of objectivity in scientific methodology, in the research of both abstract concepts and material reality and on both the study of natural phenomenons and one rather special among them to us, the human behavioral conduct.

      You asked: “Where does the Bible contradict itself?” As I said, on many a different occasions, but for the sake of conversation should we take on just one piece at a time? I would prefer we consider the claim, that it is a divinely inspired scripture when it actually is more like an obvious myth. On no occasion does the text give us any information, that was not within the knowledge and world view of the iron age culture, that produced it. In that sense it contradicts itself.

      However, if you crave for a more precise example, then I have one that might be meaningfull to you. In the Gospel of Matt, the Romans stand guard at the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea where Jesus has been taken after having been on the cross for a very short period, and a big stone and a seal is placed there, and finally the Roman guards are dazed and stunned by some Angels or some such. But in other Gospels the women are going to the tomb to embalm the body of Jesus. Now, if there were Roman guards, a big stone and a seal for nobody to enter the tomb, what did the women expect to accomplish? It is a direct contradiction in the plot, that the other Gospel writers could not get any of these rather significant points about the guards and the seal right. There is no excuse for them to leave this part of the story out, unless Matt (or whoever wrote the Gospel attributed to him) added the guards, the stone door and the seal, not to speak about the angels, into the story later on, to excuse the contemporary doubts, that the body of Jesus was taken away from the tomb by some followers of Jesus (like Joseph of Arimathea or the young man as described to announce Jesus is no longer there to the women). Or that Jesus had not died at all on the cross, and was only temporarily hidden in there by Joseph of Arimathea, who had both the means and the motive to bribe the Romans (who as we remember were not at all that interrested in executing this particular man) not to kill Jesus.

      You asked: “Where is your evidence of “…the text is full of obvious ignorance of the reality of the material and observable universe.” ?” Well, let us start from the beginning. The book says, that the earth and even vegetation was created before the sun, right? Now, this is obviously revealing the ignorance of the writer about the reality of the material and observable universe. Is it not? It is a typical mythological origins myth.

      Then we have the flood story, that claims all of humanity exept this one family were destroyed (wich by the way, depicts your god as a moral monster) but there is no evidence of anything such in the observable material universe, is there?

      I know there are creation “scientists” that claim there are evidence of such, but that is just silly. These people willingly admit that their goal is to prove the Bible as literally true and that they take the book as a higher authority than scientific research. However, scientific research is our one best way to get to know what is objectively true. Now, science sometimes blunders, but we are not warranted to have beliefs that it has done this untill it has been scientifically shown that science was wrong about something.

      Science does not research the supernatural or anything else unnatural in essence, because the methodology and the instruments simply can not do that, but if ever the alledged supernatural was in contact with the natural observable reality, then that would be a phenomenon we could observe in the reality and measure. For some reason no such phenomenon has been ever recorded in the history of science. Has it? At the moment it is the likeliest explanation to this, that no supernatural or otherwise unnatural realm even exists. Other than in the imaginations of the conceptula world in human minds. And we are very good at imagining stuff that does not exist, are we not?

      There is no world wide secret pact between scientists to undermine the supernatural. Is there? On the contrary, as I have been often told by theists, there are many theists among the scientific community even today. However, their efforts have not produced any – ANY- reliable information about the supernatural, or anything unnatural to have ever affected the natural observable reality. Have they? And as I said, it was scientists many of whom held different theistic beliefs who originally came to the conclusion that the sun was there before the earth and especially before vegetation. It was quite similarly, not some secret pact of atheisitic scientists, but just common scientists regardless of their religious beliefs, who in many different fields of research have shown, that no global flood has ever taken place. But the Bible contradicts them. Why? Could it possibly be, that the Bible is just a myth among others?

      Now, what sort of a god in your opinion would expect me to believe a book, that is in direct contradiction to international scientific research as I understand it, or threaten me with violence for not believing? Answer me this, please.

      You wrote:”Don’t you have faith in your beliefs? It would be like me now, trying to explain to someone from the 17th century, about real-time smart-phone calls…” No, I do not have faith, in my beliefs. I have beliefs, and I expect the most significant of them to be well analyzed and based on evidence, not on faith.

      The smart-phone is actually a very good example. The person from the 17th century had every reason not to believe in such inventions as the smart-phone untill he/she would be demonstrated, that such a thing is possible and existing. If people in the 17th century had formed a cult that had predicted the smart-phones and believed in them with the conviction of faith, would they have been warranted in their beliefs? They would be windicated in their faith today, but in their time, the belief would have been totally unwarranted. Same goes for dragons and gods. There migth be spirits, gods, dragons and leprechaurns, but untill we have any more evidence of them than the 17th century person had about cell-phones, we are not warranted to have beliefs, that any of these particular entities exist. You see, no matter how sincere faith and deep conviction the 17th century person in our example had that for example aliens would have conquered the planet by late 18th century, that would not make it any more objectively true. Would it? This is why evidence is essential to deeply held convictions and beliefs. Is it not?

      You asked:
      “Do you believe you are a good person?
      Why would you believe that?
      By what standards do you hold yourself to?”

      These are big questions and would require more time to explain properly, but for now, yes, I believe, that I am a good person. I believe that because I have evidence of my behaviour, that I can honestly say to be mostly good by both my own standards and by those of the surrounding secular society. Those standards are based on human ability to have empathetic feelings (an effective survival trait shared by most of our social mammal cousins) the quality of information we have as a society and I as a person share with it, my understanding of the reality around me and the possible results of my actions and inaction. What else could ethical moral standards be based on?

      Why do you want to know, and how do these relate to the topic?

  19. markHisway says:

    rautakyy,

    Thank you again for your responses. They give me a glimpse into the mind of one who has been challenged before to defend their faith in a godless belief.

    You mentioned, as far as rocks go, “…I can imagine [fabrication] happening in nature, or by a deity. Are you saying after thinking about it, that a god, or The God, may be plausible?

    Also, “…the Soviets made stone from chosen elements decades ago.”. Also, “…your god made the basic elements, then you have to provide evidence for that claim.”. It’s like I said before, He (God) has laid claim to creating it all, above, at and below the earth. This has yet to be disproved. You would have to be God Himself to say there is no god, since no one can know all about all. The belief of God not existing is self-destructive. Everybody (not believing in God) wants proof: Show me the PROOF. Show me where the EVIDENCE is. I need SCIENTIFIC DATA to back up that claim. Show me, show me, show me! It’s like they all are from Missouri (the ‘show-me’ state). J God has given us all evidence of Himself, throughout creation, so we are without excuse. Fulfillment of prophecy through the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ proves scripture as true and authentic.

    It’s not that my upbringing required me to put my faith in Jesus Christ. I don’t have enough faith to believe He DOESN’T exist. The evidences are too overwhelming. The more I learn about His creation, from the single cell to His vast galaxies, the proof is so astronomically overwhelming, I am in awe! For me to make a concerted effort in trying to disprove God, or the Bible, in return for what I believe is true, would be an abomination to Him. At that point, what if I were wrong? And I believe I would be, if that were the case.

    The trouble is, we live in a sin-cursed world, one that has become fallen in it’s present state from our own human rebellion. That is the very reason God sent Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He loves us that much! They are His laws, and we need to abide by them. We are not our own. No matter what I type to you, or what link or book (aside from the Holy Bible) I connect you with, I cannot change your mind or heart.

    I don’t believe you could stand in front of me, and legitimately tell me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you know for a fact, there is no God of the Bible, that He is illogical, and impossible to have existence. You have truth inside you, rautakyy. You are making a conscious decision to suppress that truth. Your very conscience tells you that.

    My point about if you believe you are a good person, was to reflect on how good you really are, and compare yourself to an all-perfect God; let’s say Jesus Christ, Who was perfect and is perfect, praise His name. This is how you can check: have you broken any of the commandments, or laws, of the Bible, namely the ‘Big Ten’, the Ten Commandments:

    1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
    2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
    3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
    4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
    5. Thou shalt not murder.
    6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    7. Thou shalt not steal.
    8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
    9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
    10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

    The following is in a more basic written English translation, from the text, numbered by verse, not by commandments, in Exodus 20:1-17:

    “1 And God said all these words:
    2 I am the Lord your God who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the prison-house.
    3 You are to have no other gods but me.
    4 You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:
    5 You may not go down on your faces before them or give them worship: for I, the Lord your God, am a God who will not give his honour to another; and I will send punishment on the children for the wrongdoing of their fathers, to the third and fourth generation of my haters;
    6 And I will have mercy through a thousand generations on those who have love for me and keep my laws.
    7 You are not to make use of the name of the Lord your God for an evil purpose; whoever takes the Lord’s name on his lips for an evil purpose will be judged a sinner by the Lord
    8 Keep in memory the Sabbath and let it be a holy day.
    9 On six days do all your work:
    10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on that day you are to do no work, you or your son or your daughter, your man-servant or your woman-servant, your cattle or the man from a strange country who is living among you:
    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and everything in them, and he took his rest on the seventh day: for this reason the Lord has given his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy.
    12 Give honour to your father and to your mother, so that your life may be long in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
    13 Do not put anyone to death without cause.
    14 Do not be false to the married relation.
    15 Do not take the property of another.
    16 Do not give false witness against your neighbour.
    17 Let not your desire be turned to your neighbour’s house, or his wife or his man-servant or his woman-servant or his ox or his ass or anything which is his.”

    Judging by these laws, it is written that if you have broken the least of these, it is as if you have broken them all. Compared to a Holy, Perfect God, we fall way short of perfection. Do you think you would be guilty of breaking any of these laws? Would God be just in sentencing you to heaven or hell?

    Taking an example into a modern-day court of law. Someone has committed an incredibly heinous crime against his fellow man, and is being sentenced to death in the electric chair. The criminal, standing guilty before the judge says, “But judge, I am a good person. I only did this once! Why can’t I be set free? Aren’t you a loving and good judge? “ The judge replies, “Yes, I am a loving and good judge, and am also just, which, having these attributes, I have sentenced you to death by electrocution.” , to which the criminal replies “ But judge, electrocution requires electricity, does it not?” To which the judge answers, “Yes, that is correct.” So the criminal thinks he is free, saying, “That’s great, because I don’t believe in electricity!”. The judge raises one eyebrow, tilts his head a bit to one side, and says, “We’ll see at what time you become a believer. Your scheduled time of electrocution is this Friday, at twelve o’clock in the afternoon.” Just before the gavel smacks down on the bench, a man in the back of the courtroom stands up, with his hand held up, and says, “Your honor, I will take the place of this person. In spite of his crime, I will be here this Friday at noon, to take his place.”

    This is what Jesus Christ has done for mankind. Good works won’t achieve your salvation. If you aren’t following His teachings in scripture, turn from your ways of not following Him, putting your trust in Christ Jesus, scripture has outlined what will happen. This is the relevance at hand, what it is all about. You are so much more than some advanced mammal, that has built complex societies. You are a created being, with a soul, unique in this created world. Accept it, believe it. The proof is all around you. I pray the Holy Spirit moves in your life in a miraculous way. I wouldn’t be typing these letters to you, rautakyy, if I didn’t care about you. I am casting truth in your direction. I suggest you re-read scripture, view some of the links I have provided, and pray for God to reveal Himself to you, to help you in your disbelief. It is close to 2am, and I work first shift, but to take this time to proclaim Jesus’ name, I will take all the time He has given me.

    Blessings.

    • rautakyy says:

      @markHisway, atheism does not mean “godless belief”, but simly a lack of belief in any gods. But you are wellcome to have a glimpse at my personal views on the matter.

      No, I do not think a god is a plausible suggestion. Much like I can imagine how a dragon could breathe fire, I can imagine a god, but neither of these still seem like plausible suggestions. Both of them lack any hard evidence for them. Correct?

      Inferring from the factual animals such as the bombardier beetle and dinosaurs, that sufferend extinction 65 million years ago before the bombardier beetle, that is not related to the dinosaurs, that myths (such as the Bible) about a fire breathing lizards are factually true, is rather far fetched. Though not quite as far fetched as to think, that because we do not know the causation of the universe, there MUST be an unnatural mind that has designed it. Not to speak to infer anything about the nature of this entity according to some ancient mythical anecdotes, because they have been set in actual existing places. Sorry, but this does not cut it logically.

      You wrote: ” The belief of God not existing is self-destructive.” But I have not chosen not to believe, it is that no god has ever conviced me of the existance of them. Why? Why would I choose not to believe something I knew was true, especially if I also knew that this choise was as you say “self destructive”? That makes no sense? How stupid do you take me for? IF someone ever was so stupid, that they chose to disbelieve, when they knew that simply for believing what they knew is true, they’d get a magnificent reward, how could any ethical person, or entity condemn them for their stupidity? No, for that level of lack of reason, there could not be justified judgement on those poor sods. Could there? And who made them that stupid? The creator who made everything is ultimately also responsible for the powers of reasoning of the created. Yes?

      You wrote: “J God has given us all evidence of Himself, throughout creation, so we are without excuse.” What sort of evidence is that supposed to be? If you mean nature, or the universe by “creation”, it is in direct contradiction with this book supposedly inspired by this god of yours. Do your own research, if you are not affraid of the truth. It is not my job to give you all the scientific data that contradicts the Bible. Now, I have referred to much of it, like the obvious myths such as the order of emergence of the earth vs. the sun and the global flood, that never happened and to boost with the story about resurrection. Read the actual science and forget for a while about the propaganda of your particular religious affiliation. Science has no other agenda than to find out about the truth, but religions are just human powerstructures to move wealth and power.

      You wrote: ” Fulfillment of prophecy through the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ proves scripture as true and authentic.” No, it does not. Look here:
      https://500questions.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/does-the-suffering-servant-in-isiah-53-really-predict-jesus/

      If you are interrested in my opinion on this, you can look at the comments below.

      You wrote: “It’s not that my upbringing required me to put my faith in Jesus Christ. I don’t have enough faith to believe He DOESN’T exist. The evidences are too overwhelming. The more I learn about His creation, from the single cell to His vast galaxies, the proof is so astronomically overwhelming, I am in awe! For me to make a concerted effort in trying to disprove God, or the Bible, in return for what I believe is true, would be an abomination to Him. At that point, what if I were wrong? And I believe I would be, if that were the case. ” Are you saying that you would worship Jesus, even if you had been born in an Islamic culture. By all likelyhood you would be as fervent and devout supporter of Muhammed.

      However, if we put aside the accident of your birht into the culture of the particular “true religion” (wich is finally something along the topic), I do not see any evidence of the existance of any god. But something has “overwhelmed” you. What was it? How are galaxies and cells any less wondrous, if you accept, that these are natural phenomenons and not induced by some unnatural entity outside observable reality?

      Nobody is asking for you to make an effort to disprove your god. On the contrary. But do you realize that the fear of “what if” you were wrong is an actual logical fallacy. It is a fear fallacy to conclude, that something must be true, because if it is not, the consequenses might be terrible. Infact, from a religion that needs to use the fear fallacy, we can very well infer, that it has very few actually logically appealing arguments for it’s truth value, since instead of those it so easily falls back on terror tactics. Correct?

      You said: “I don’t believe you could stand in front of me, and legitimately tell me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you know for a fact, there is no God of the Bible, that He is illogical, and impossible to have existence. You have truth inside you, rautakyy. You are making a conscious decision to suppress that truth. Your very conscience tells you that.” How dare you? Of the two of us, I am the expert on what my conscience tells me! Let me assure you, my conscience and I have no quarrels about this issue. If ever some person has claimed to you, that atheists make a conscious descision to suppress a truth they supposedly know about a god actually existing, that person making the claim was either terribly wrong because she/he was lied to, or deliberately lying to you in order to make up an excuse to the unethical nature of the salvation theology in Christianity. Either way, I would not recommend you take anything that person offers you as true, at face value. I have stood in front of quite many men and told them, that it is illogical for any gods to exist.

      Ultimately the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. This is one of the basic rules of logic. You have made a positive claim that there is a god, and I am merely asking you to prove your bold claim as the existance of this god of yours is not self evident to me.

      Your other point about my nature, has even less to do with the actual topic to wich we are commenting. But I will indulge you for a while. The ten commandments are not that moral at all, if you look at them with a critical eye.

      Seriously though.
      1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
      Nice, and how are we supposed to know this is true?
      2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
      Why not? Wich one of the twelve different names are we talking about, or are there yet some more names we could take in vain?
      3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
      It is nice to have holidays from time to time, but to stone to death all the policemen, ambulance drivers, firemen, priests and whom ever works on sundays is a bit harsh even coming from a god of some pastoral nomad tribes.
      4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
      Nobody deserves honouring by default, if they do not deserve it. Right? Or is this meant only for little kids dependant on the superior experience of their parents?
      5. Thou shalt not murder.
      So, killing human beings in battle, by bomb, or by abortion is all right with you is it? A kill is OK a murder is not – Got it: By the way what about flying an aeroplane into a builiding, is that a murder? Is it more murder, than for example dropping an A-bomb on a city?
      6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
      This is a big one, coming from a diety, that supposedly impragnated a married woman. But the rules do not seem to be the same for the dude who alledgedly made them up, or was it not murder when this god alledgedly sent a pestilence to kill all first born sons of Egypt. What ever had those kids, or all of their parents done to this god to deserve such fate?
      7. Thou shalt not steal.
      So, Robin Hood was infact a terrible sinner. But is it, for example, stealing to found an investment bank and fool thousands of people out of their pensions, or is it just legitimate business, if it is OK by the secular laws of your homecountry?
      8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
      How about thou shalt not bear false witness against anybody? Why is this more important than for example: thou shalt not rape?
      9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.
      But if you do, how are you supposed not to? What about thou shalt not covet thy neighbours adolescent children? Would that not have been far more important?
      10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.
      And again, how is this supposedly accomplished? By some form of autosuggestion?

      I am actually home free with these laws. How about you? I never have had any gods, so first one is a clear one I have never had any gods before any of them. As I have never held any gods, so it has been impossible for me to take the name of “my god” in vain. I do not know for sure what the Sabbat day means, but generally speaking I have kept at least one day off from work, we have very good work laws here in Finland, though for these days out of work I thank the trade unions, not any imaginary gods. My atheist parents both deserve respect and even though my father has allready died, I still honour them both. I have not murdered anybody according to the secular definition of murder in my home country (it seems to be an important distinction as the former English translation the command being about all sort of killing has been changed to specify murder). I have not been adulterous. I do not steal. I do not bear false witnesses to anybody, not even my most annoying neighbours. I certainly do not covet my neighbours wife (huh, huh), or anybody’s wife for that matter and as I am not a very competetive person I am quite content on my own property, so I am not a very good member of market economy in the sense George Carlin referred to.

      I am sorry, but your little analogy about the execution fails totally. First of all, it obviously is not representing a very “modern” court of law, as in most modern civilized countries – including Russia – the capital punishment has been abolished as inhumane practice. Why? Because our modern secular morals is higher to that of the ancient Middle-Eastern god you worship. Second, electricity is a very real and observable material phenomenon in this material universe easily demonstrable to the victim of this legalized murder – or as you put it – the criminal. Third, what sort of a looney is the man who offers himself to stand in for the sentenced person? Unless he has an escape clause, or a system, that revives him back to life only after having been “dead” for couple of days. Then he did not die for the criminal after all, did he? But why would that second man step in? Because he loves the criminal inspite of his crimes? That is some passionate love. But if this second man had in his power to stop the criminal from doing the crime in the first place is it not a bit hypocritical of him to step in afterwards? What about the victim of this crime? What “modern” justice system would allow the other – obviously mentally disturbed – man to step in. Could we say that justice was served, if we started executing people who did not commit any crimes instead of the actual criminals? Of course not. What then, if it could be shown, that it actually was the second man offering himself for the punishment, though not really, because after all he knows his life is not going to end in the execution, who actually originally manipulated or caused the “criminal” to be unawoidably subject to manipulation, by a third party also originally manipulated by the second party and infact deliberately entrapped the criminal to be such, that he can not help himself from doing the crimes?
      What if it is revealed to the court, that the man being on trial did actually nothing, worthy of the punishment, but that it was actually his ancestors crimes he is being judged by? This analogy of yours does not quite hold up, does it?

      I appriciate it, that you care for me, but I still think you are wrong. I care for you too, and sincerely hope you can shake the shackless that bind your mind, but I do not require it of you. I do not appriate your god, as the ultimate source for your god – the Bible – describes this god as an immoral monster. Do you see how we are not getting anywhere here? Or more like we are getting on so many tangents, that this conversation has nothing to do with the topic. I suggest we consider the topic, if we are to continue this conversation, or otherwise this achieves nothing. Now, you ignore my points and questions (wich are many, I confess), then feed me the same religious propaganda over and over again. If you are right, you end up in eternal bliss (what ever that means in practice and I do hope you get what you would wish for, though doubt it because of lack of evidence), but if I am right neither of us (nor anybody, for that matter) have to go to eternal torment. Honestly, wich of us has the more benign beliefs?

  20. markHisway says:

    rautakyy,

    Creation: earth, cells, galaxies, all having too much order to argue for natural/random causation.

    Dinosaurs suffered extinction 65,000,000 years ago… why not 64M,or 72M, or 118,556,344 years, 11 months, 17 days, 14 hours and 55 minutes? Were there tags on the fossils?

    The Bible a myth; not really. It has been and continues to be proven time and time again.

    I thank the Lord God you have not chosen not to believe in (God?). Perhaps there is hope you may one day become a Christian. God only knows. And I do not, by any means, take you as stupid. I am simply attempting to show you the opposition of your belief, or disbelief.

    God has given you His Word, your breath of life.

    “…this book supposedly inspired by this god of yours.”. You need to be very careful as to Who you are dismissing as a liar. If you think you can argue away God and His Word with scientific data, you will lose every time. I say this with as much kindness as I can muster, trying not to offend.

    “suppressed the truth…” Re-read Romans 1:18. Writings of Paul, inspired by God. You recommend I take it as a lie. No can do. Truth: believe it or not. Much dire consequences for the latter.

    Commandments:
    1 – Because God is God. There are no others
    2. – Taking His name in vain is blasphemy, ie. OMG, gd, JC, these being used as curse words: highly serious; shows lack of respect for His Holy Name
    3. – we need our rest, and also, showing respect: it is His law, not ours
    4. – If parents are instructing contrary to God’s commands, honor God first. Otherwise, honor them, because they do honor God.
    5. – How do you assert I say abortion, or ungodly battle/war is ok with me? Protection of the sanctity of life, whether in the womb or on the battlefield, is where I stand. The taking of a life must be justified by God’s standard. Otherwise, it is murder, and is wrong. Jesus raised the bar on this by clarifying that one who hates or is angry with another, is in danger of the same judgment as murder – Matt 5:21-22. Airplanes into buildings and A-bombs are all evidence of a fallen world. It falls back to sanctity of life. Following commands in war for protection of sanctity of life, has its horrid results, because we are still in a fallen world, resulting in bloodshed. Ecclesiastes 3:8: there is a time and season for war, a time for peace.
    6. – Immaculate conception; necessary for the perfect sacrifice. God’s decision. God is never wrong. Also, Jesus said that lusting after a woman and lusts after her has committed adultery with her in his heart – Matt 5:27-28.
    7. – Everyone is a sinner; even ‘Robin Hood’. There are many ways to steal, I would imagine.
    8. – Neighbor; one another, others, etc.
    9. – These are all commandments; the Greatest is to love God, and the second is love your neighbor as yourself – Matt. 22:37-40.
    10. – Sinful nature is very strong. These are not able to be met, without help from the Holy Spirit, which aids Christians in the strength to resist temptation. None of us (Christians) are perfect (without sin), but we are forgiven.

    You say you have never broken any of these. If we say we have not sinned, we are calling Jesus a liar, and His word (truth) is not in us. See 1 John 1:10.

    This is a quote from C. S. Lewis’s book, ‘Mere Christianity’:
    “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. … Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.” – C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.

    I take God at His Word, that He is Jesus Christ, Creator God, the Author of Salvation.
    Yes, rautakyy, Jesus Christ DOES have passionate love. He isn’t mentally disturbed, but is the Ultimate Superiority.

    God is not the ‘immoral monster’ you believe the Bible makes Him out to be. Yes, He is a God of justice, but at the same time, He is a God of mercy, grace, love and peace. There are consequences for not following His laws and statutes. But it is for our own good. He has our best interest in mind, for us to have a fellowship with Him. He provided a propitiation for us, who is Jesus Christ. He loves us that much. He has great patience with us, when we ridicule Him mock Him, discredit Him, disobey Him. No one knows when they will draw their last breath. May God awaken you to His truth, and move in your life, and draw you neigh to His side.

    He gave us free will. He gave us His creation. He gave us His Word. He gave us His Only Son, Jesus Christ. What more do we need?

    Blessings.

  21. rautakyy says:

    @markHisway, you wrote: “Creation: earth, cells, galaxies, all having too much order to argue for natural/random causation.” How do you know this? What is too much order? These are all very random natural phenomenons. Most stuff in nature is random, right? If you think all of the indifferent randomness in nature is by design, what would a random universe look like then? If you choose to call it by design when an asteroid collides with a nother, that seems a bit disingenious to me. The enormous time spans in the natural existing universe, together with it’s vast size cause all sorts of random things to turn into more complex ones, but you would see design in it. If you have a mind designing the universe, what a total nincompoop, that mind must be, that it decided not to build the basic building blocks such as the elements in the beginning out of nothing (as you would claim that this mind could, right), but it decided to produce them over a time period of billions of years within stars only to be released to the universe after these stars exploded in supernovas? I can’t help it, but that does not strike me as a very clever design, but rather a random natural process.

    There are tags on fossils. Did you not know? Their age is defined by geology. They are stratigraphically layered and it has been possible for the scientists to compare the rate of evolution of these plants and animals accordingly. The fact alone, that more simple lifeforms are found deeper, should tell us plenty of their relative age. Should it not? The age of different fossils is determined by various different fields of research and all leading scientists in the world, now even if they were later proven to have all been wrong (wich is to say, very very unlikely) we – you and I – are not warranted to disbelieve their foundings. Why? Because they can and have provided verifiable and verified data. A bit different than to take one particular mythology on faith, would you not say?

    The Bible is a historical myth, much like the Iliad. Or would you claim that the Iliad is not a myth but totally factual, because some place names refer to actual places? Wich is as much as we can verify about the Bible to be true.

    You wrote: ” And I do not, by any means, take you as stupid. I am simply attempting to show you the opposition of your belief, or disbelief.” Well, I thank you for not taking me as stupid, and accept that people may be disbelievers not out of choise, but because they have not been convinced. This once again puts those of my elder family members who did not become Christians into a nasty place, because Christianity threatens people with such vile and underhanded violence as the imagined eternal torment, for simply not being convinced about the truth value in the Christian claims about your particular god. To me the obvious lack of morality in trying to convince people by such threats of violence tells a telltale story about how plausible such a religion is. Have you not noticed this contradiction about a supposedly loving god, that does not reveal itself to all, but punishes those whom this god chose not to convince with eternal torment? Is it not vile in your perspective?

    You wrote: “God has given you His Word, your breath of life.” Well, that is a matter of an opinion, and as a positive claim very, very hard to prove if not indeed impossible.

    You said: “1 – Because God is God. There are no others” How could you possibly know this to be true? It is a major positive claim and rather extraordinary at that. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence, do they not?

    You said: “2. – Taking His name in vain is blasphemy, ie. OMG, gd, JC, these being used as curse words: highly serious; shows lack of respect for His Holy Name” No it does not. If – let’s say – an all American family mother, a construction worker, or a policeman for example says one of those things when something surpricing happens, you can not honestly claim they were deliberately being disrespectfull of their god for wich they have deep emotional conviction to. Can you? Would a god set up this sort of trap for those, perhaps disingenious, but well meaning people? Perhaps the god of the Bible would, as that god is known – according to the Bible – to have done far less ethical stuff.

    You wrote: “3. – we need our rest, and also, showing respect: it is His law, not ours” Rest is OK, but as you propably know, most societies have been able to figure this out even without the help of divine guidance by a particular book and especial commands. What does your god do with your respect? What would you do with the respect of an ant? Does your god have self respect issues, or why does this god of yours require such amounts of worship, money to keep up professional worshippers and pleas about stuff your god alledgedly knows needs putting right, but chooses not to until somebody asks it and sometimes not even then?

    You wrote: “4. – If parents are instructing contrary to God’s commands, honor God first. Otherwise, honor them, because they do honor God.” That sounds inherently logical, but it does not say this in the Bible, does it? Anyway, one would first have to demonstrate that a god exists, even if something like this was inherently logical, it does not by far demonstrate that it is true on any level.

    You asked: “5. – How do you assert I say abortion, or ungodly battle/war is ok with me?” My apologies, if I read too much into the chosen translation of this commandment, that used to say do not kill. I do not see abortion, or killing an enemy in battle as murder. As they are not defined such by most modern societies, then there is good reason to think they fall under the category of killing in this rather primitive list. Now since the new translations, the commandments say nothing of killing. Do they? What is godly battle then?

    You would claim: “6. – Immaculate conception; necessary for the perfect sacrifice. God’s decision. God is never wrong. Also, Jesus said that lusting after a woman and lusts after her has committed adultery with her in his heart – Matt 5:27-28.” Necessary???? Is this god of yours not able to produce a human being out of thin air? Perhaps not. A sperm cell with Y-cromosomes your god was able to produce into the Vagina of Maria, but not a separate individual. Right?

    However, this still means your god broke one his own rules. Are these not absolute moral guides after all? Or was your god immoral, while adulterating with Joseph’s wife? If your god acted immorally, this one incident, how do you know, that your god really has any tendency to act morally? Lying is not even mentioned in the ten commandments, so it is as if lying is a less of a “sin” to adultery, but if your god is willing and able to boast about having done adultery, then how do you know what your god feels about lying. Perhaps the Bible is full of lies by this god of yours.

    You wrote: “7. – Everyone is a sinner; even ‘Robin Hood’. There are many ways to steal, I would imagine” I would imagine that too. What is wrong with a perfect being, that it alledgedly creates such imperfect creatures, that they do not even have a choise not to be worthy of some eternal punishement, and then this god feels justified for punishing them for what they were created like?

    You wrote: “9. – These are all commandments; the Greatest is to love God, and the second is love your neighbor as yourself – Matt. 22:37-40.” Ahh yes, the golden rule. But why did your god stall here and not add this logic to the ten commandments already? I mean, it was invented by Laotze and Confucius already when the Pentateuch was written and by Buddha for example a lot earlier. Naturally the dudes writing the pentateuch had no idea of these distant philosphers, but your god should have had, right?

    To most of us it is obvious, that one should only expect as much respect from others as one is willing to give them, but this is a natural phenomenon derived from the survival mechanism of all social species, so writing it down is kinda stating the obvious, that is not so obvious to all individuals. Perhaps such commands in ancient philosophies are there to stop the psychopats from grabbing too much power in any society. Much good have these philosophies done to us. The psychopat seems unable to percieve as much, even when told so and when such a command is based not on logic of the claim, but on some imaginary power authority like a god, there is the risk, that the psychopat some day realizes, that no gods exist to enforce their commands. That is where the Stalins, Maos, and Pol Pots of this world come from.

    You wrote: “10. – Sinful nature is very strong. These are not able to be met, without help from the Holy Spirit, which aids Christians in the strength to resist temptation. None of us (Christians) are perfect (without sin), but we are forgiven.” Are you saying that it is impossible (for a Christian) to meet these simple standards? That you guys are somehow unable to not have other gods, respect your parents and withold from saying certain words, murdering, adultery, theft, and jealosy of other peoples wifes and property on your own accord? You guys truly have lower morals, than I thought.

    You said: “You say you have never broken any of these. If we say we have not sinned, we are calling Jesus a liar, and His word (truth) is not in us. See 1 John 1:10.” Perhaps Jesus was a liar. He did claim to return before some of his followers would be dead, and it has now been almost two millenia from that. He also has been reported to have claimed, that everything that one prays for comes true, wich is an unlikely event, since prayer has exactly the same effect as that thing happening, or most often not happening anyway. Altough I would give him the benefit of the doubt, that if he really existed and said all these things, he most propably thought they were true. That does not mean they were, and does not make Jesus a liar, but rather just puts him “on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg”. But who is the fool, the man who makes such wild claims, or the man who believes him?

    C.S. Lewis was quite obviously totally wrong. Even if Jesus was not a flesh and blood son of a god come to deliver a revelation, he was still a mediocre moral teacher. Did he not present the self evident “golden rule” in his teachings? C.S.Lewis himself was not far from “the level with the man who says he is a poached egg”, but his fairy tales are still in many ways mediocre moral teachers. Are they not? We do not assume, that the Narnia stories have to be true, for us to find some inherent moral truths from them and some of their content to be just plain wrong and obvious products of the society surrounding Mr. Lewis, much like the Jesus stories are an obvious product of the multicultural eastern part of the Roman empire, with strong Egyptian, Jewish, Hellenistic and other older cultural traits in them. Nor do we have to take the Jesus story as true, to appriciate the for example the “golden rule”. Do we? But even if we can logically appriciate such good teachings, it does not mean we have to accept all fairy tale elements of the Jesus story, any more than we have to accept Narnia to be true. Do we? Should we even take all that Jesus alledgedly said at face value? Have you sold all your possessions and given the money to the poor as Jesus very explicitly commands? Is this not a very impractical command from the alledged son of a god?

    You wrote: “I take God at His Word, that He is Jesus Christ, Creator God, the Author of Salvation.
    Yes, rautakyy, Jesus Christ DOES have passionate love. He isn’t mentally disturbed, but is the Ultimate Superiority. ” And what evidence do you have that any of this is true? Or do you mean that when a diety is “ultimate superiority” it no longer needs to prove itself to humans? Is that not just one form of might makes right?

    You wrote: “He gave us free will. He gave us His creation. He gave us His Word. He gave us His Only Son, Jesus Christ. What more do we need?” There is no way you can verify any of these wild claims. Is there? Should we base the big descisions and our values rather on verified information, than on obvious guess work of ancient and ignorant people?

  22. Arista says:

    Also: how big is the gesture to sacrifice your only son, if you are all-knowing and therefore know already that your son will be sitting right next to your throne alive and well only 3 days later? If Jesus would be in Hell right now – and will stay there for all eternity in excruciating torment, separated from God forever – than we have a real big sacrifice on our hands, than God really lost something, really gave up on something big in order to save us. But that is not the case.

    Wouldn’t you be willing to go to hell for only three days if that could save the entirety of mankind, if that would mean that everyone will get to enjoy an eternity in heaven, including you (who are even entitled to sit right next to God)? How is that for loving thy neighbor? I would. Wouldn’t you, too, MarkHISway?

    In that regard, the sacrifice that Job was willing to make – killing his son, knowing full well that he would never see him again – is a far bigger sacrifice than God was willing to make with his own son, don’t you think?

  23. markHisway says:

    The Word of the Lord does not return void:

    Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

    16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” John 3:1-21 – NASB

  24. Arista says:

    And why would this be true?

  25. Arista says:

    And again, how big is the gesture to sacrifice your only son, if you are all-knowing and therefore know already that your son will be sitting right next to your throne alive and well only 3 days later? How is that a real sacrifice? Wouldn’t you be willing to go to hell for only three days if that could save the entirety of mankind, if that would mean that everyone will get to enjoy an eternity in heaven, including you (who are even entitled to sit right next to God)? How is that for loving thy neighbor? I would. Wouldn’t you, too, MarkHISway?

  26. markHisway says:

    I am not God. I am not Jesus Christ. I am not the Holy Spirit. However, I do follow them and their Word, which is Truth. Seek out the scriptures. God does not lie.

  27. Arista says:

    I didn’t ask if you were God or Jesus Christ, I asked if you would be willing to go to hell for only three days if that could save the entirety of mankind, if that would mean that everyone will get to enjoy an eternity in heaven, including you (who are even entitled to sit right next to God)? I would. Wouldn’t you, too, MarkHISway? I thought you loved God’s creation (= your neighbor)?

    Also: God does not lie? How do you know this? Because the bible says so? Why would be bible be true? Why would the scripture be inspired by god? Why would the way the bible portrays Jesus correspond with the actual things Jesus said and did (if he ever lived at all)? Where is your proof? Repeating scripture ad neaseum is not a very purposeful thing to do on a website filled with people who don’t believe scripture to be anything more than fairy tales. You could very well be quoting from Harry Potter. Don’t give us what you believe – because that we know – but give us why you believe. Arguments, MarkHISWay, arguments and logic. God’s word is truth? Proof please; not just some story from the bible! Jesus died for our sins? Proof please: not just another story from the bible. God does not lie? Proof please!

    Also – because you still didn’t answer – how big is the gesture to sacrifice your only son, if you are all-knowing and therefore know already that your son will be sitting right next to your throne alive and well only 3 days later? How is that a real sacrifice? What did god possibly lose with this sacrifice?

  28. markHisway says:

    Since you are so animate about ‘proof please’, and ‘truth’, you must have your own proof and truth you base your belief on, correct? Am I wrong? Proof, please. Truth, please.

    My belief: the Holy Bible. My proof: creation. Tried, tested, stood the test of time, and still standing. Your choice. Repent, believe, and trust in Jesus Christ. You have free will: God-given.

    Stories? Who told you this? How do you know those who told you they were just stories, weren’t just lying themselves, or, not placing enough emphasis on these ‘stories’ as being actual, factual accounts? And the ‘we’ and ‘us’ on this website: are you only restricting yourself, and everyone else besides me, to only believe what you believe forever and ever, amen? Are you omniscient, knowing the Holy Spirit IS active and able to soften hearts, omnipresent, to see past, present and future of everyone and everything, and omnipotent, enabling you to divide soul and spirit, amongst innumerable other things?

    Where do you understand how it was, or how God the Father felt, when His only Son, Jesus Christ, was separated from Him, even for a moment? Are you God? Are you Jesus Christ? Are you married? Do you have kids?

    Ad nauseam, did you mean? If this is the case, what is the purpose of this site, other than to bash The Bible, bash God the Father, bash God the Son, and bash God the Holy Spirit? If it has come, for you, ad nauseam, than what is your point in responding? You can quit any time, as can I. I just pray someone out there looks into the Holy Scriptures again, with an open heart and open mind. I pray for the Holy Spirit to move in someone’s life, bringing them to salvation, maybe even using me to do so. Wouldn’t you agree?

    It’s not a matter of knowing if I would or wouldn’t go to hell for 3 days, etc. etc…. Jesus Christ has already done this, praise be to God!! How can I honestly answer that question, without being any of the three eternal beings? In asking me, “would you…?”, you DID ask me if I was any of the Three, the Trinity. It’s hypothetical. Can a person wonder what they would think of , if they were water flowing over a ridge, forming a waterfall? Wouldn’t it hurt? Would I form a cloud? Could I feel lightning? If you could be water, would you?
    John 4:13-14 NKJV
    “13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

    Blessings

  29. Arista says:

    MarkHISway,

    Thanks for a lengthy response in your own words. Finally. I really appreciate that. Don’t you think it is much better to converse in our own words instead of through quotations from others?

    Me, I base my life on staying as close as possible to what I call observable truth and to what seems most likely; based on what I learned about everyday life.

    So when someone states that he came to work on a bicycle, I’m willing to believe this without any evidence or proof, because it is likely. Thousands of people travel by bicycle, and most people can afford a bike and know how to ride one. But if someone claims he came to work today by space shuttle, then I would require proof and evidence, because not a lot of people can afford to own a space shuttle, and even less know how to fly one. So yeah, I want to see that shuttle, and I want to see said person enter it with his own keys, and fly around in it for a while. A possible scenario? Sure. Likely to happen? Not very. Based on? The observable truth of everyday life.

    Do I think I demand a lot? I don’t think so. Almost everyone wants this kind of proof, including the religious. If I told you that yesterday evening I opened my 13th floor window, stepped out, flapped my arms, and flew around my building twice, would you believe me? Or if I told you that I have 500 witnesses that saw me do it, would you then believe me? Or do you require actually seeing me fly, or actually meeting and talking to these witnesses? If you simply believe my claims without any proof or evidence, I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in…

    Most religious people I know do rely on the observable truth of everyday life also, except when one comes to talk about faith. And that is something I just don’t understand. For example: when my car isn’t there where I last left it, I have several options: it got stolen by a human being, it got towed by the police, or an employee of a Historical Car Museum in the year 5627 traveled back in time to take my car – as they didn’t have that model in their collection yet – or the earth split open and the devil himself consumed my bike in one big fiery gulp before disappearing again without a trace. All of these options are possible. But I’d rather stick with the most likely ones: theft, or towed. Why? Because I have seen cars getting stolen by people, and because I have seen cars getting towed by the police. I have never seen a time machine, and I have never seen the devil. And I have yet to meet anyone else who did. Do you know any friends or family members who had their car stolen or towed? Do you know anyone who had it eaten by the devil? Could you add up the numbers in each category and get back to me?

    Accepting the paranormal makes everyday life to be very difficult, if not impossible. For instance: if a girl gets raped, then the DNA of the sperm stains on her clothes and inside her body will point out to one person only. But Satan can appear in many forms, so he can also appear in the form of DNA and sperm. Therefore, if the guy suspected of the rape (= it is his DNA) claims that the devil raped the girl transformed to look like the guy on trail, I think a religious judge and religious lawyers have to seriously take this into consideration. In their world, this happening is a serious option. Now there is a reason why we separated church and state…

    If you have only 20 dollars in your wallet and you buy something for 8 dollars, and you put the change back in your wallet (without actually counting it), and later that evening you check your wallet and there is only 10 dollars there: do you blame the store clerk for ripping you off or do you blame the devil for taking money out of your wallet?

    There is a reason we don’t allow the supernatural in science. There is a reason why we don’t allow it in the courtroom. There is a reason we don’t allow it in our schools. Because we would probably still be living in the middle ages if we did.

    I also like to stay as close to the observable truth as possible in regard to the unknown, too. What will happen after I die? I don’t know, as I haven’t been dead yet. And I also haven’t spoken to anyone who has been. But what do I think I know about death? Well, if I think back to how I felt in the year 1832, I realize I have no feelings about it whatsoever. It is almost like I didn’t exist… So yeah: it is possible for a human being to not exist. Therefore, it is not unlikely that a time might come again for a human to not exist. In addition, dead people seem unconscious. When do I experience unconsciousness? When I’m asleep, or in a coma. How do I know that I have been asleep, or in a coma? By waking up, getting out of it. Only because I wake up every morning do I know that I have been asleep. Therefore I don’t think it is a stretch that when the day comes that I don’t wake up anymore, I will never know that I’m asleep (or in a coma, or death). To me this stays as close to observable reality as possible. Also: I observe to live in a world where everything is in a state of decay: new things get old and fall apart, including my body, and, hopefully it will be a while, my mind. So the believe in something that lasts forever contradicts everything I encounter in real life. Therefore, stating that when I die I will meet an eternal “god” – of which everyone seems to have different definition – who will then judge me – based on rules everyone has a different definition of – and will then let me enter either heaven or hell (places everyone has a different definition of), for either a while or eternity (again: different viewpoints exist), seems not to add up with anything I’ve ever seen, felt or experienced.

    For your information, I have read scripture. It just didn’t add up. Too many extraordinarily stories. Not enough evidence or proof. And also nothing that can be observed. Jesus claimed that one only needs faith the size of a mustard seed to be able to move mountains. But I have yet to see a mountain get moved. Jesus claimed that all prayers will be answered, but amputees don’t get healed (while many pray for it). The list is rather endless. And I have yet to see the proof for any of it.

    There are many websites out there that bash the bible (and other religions and their books), but I sincerely don’t think 500 Questions is among them. Here we try not to bash but to ask, to get explained. And rather respectfully, I would say. I’m not here to bash your faith or way of life. But when you make a claim, you do have to back it up with evidence. Else any other claim goes: those of Muslims, those of Mormons, those of alien abductees… To me this seems logical. I hope it seems that way for you too.

    I did not ask you to be any of the trinity. People go to hell every day and for all eternity (according to the beliefs of some). So asking if you would go to hell to pay the bill of someone else (whether your own child, or the children of everybody else) has nothing to do with becoming god, it only has to do with your love for fellow humans. Apparently you don’t love us very much, as you are not willing to make any sacrifices for us. If you could stop humanity from sinning by paying their bill to god, would you? No more death, no more pain, no more cancer, no more incest, no more cars stolen by employees from Car Museums in the year 5627… How can you possibly say no to that? I think I know why: because we humans don’t have this choice. And that is why we should bank on proof and evidence alone. Science and logic. So we can create medicine and law, in order to try to avoid them from happening and create a better world for everyone.

    And I remain with my question: a sacrifice implies losing something. What did god lose by sacrificing his only son – often explained as getting separated from him – for only 3 days (not even, actually: late Friday to early Sunday)? If Jesus is paying for our sins, shouldn’t he be in hell for all eternity? Not that I want him there (or anyone else for that matter), but where is the logic to back it all up?

    All my best,

  30. Anonymous says:

    I heard an interesting analogy in one of John Lennox’s discussions about God and the understanding of the fall of man. Forgive me, because I am paraphrasing. It went something like this:
    “If a married man and woman made a decision, before conceiving a child, to have a child or not, should they NOT have a child, based strictly on the possibility that one day that child may grow up with the ability to tell their parent(s) ‘No.’, going against their very guidance and instruction?”

    “Create medicine and law… create a better world for everyone.”.
    We are made in the image of God. We are powerless without His power. We are dependent on His grace and mercy. We all may not believe it, but it is true. There is some belief you have, wether or not you believe I am writing to you, responding to your comments. This all is made available through our Creator God. Without Jesus Christ, nothing was made that was made.

    To satisfy your need to know as to what I would do if I had the power of God, if I were God, if I were Jesus Christ, I believe I would speak for anyone who has at least half a heart, that they would do the same, but look at the position that puts anyone in. It is still an impossible situation. It’s like, if you were me, wouldn’t you repent of your sins and follow Christ Jesus? I have. Why wouldn’t you? Don’t you want the gift of salvation only available through Jesus? Are you saying you don’t care about your eternity, and where you will spend it? I guess so. Rejection of God, and of His Son, is an acceptance of eternity without them, which is in a place called hell. I don’t want that for anyone, even you, Arista. By not answering if I would do that, was not saying I do not sacrifice for you (“you are not willing to make any sacrifices for us”). To whom ‘us’ are you referring? How do you know I haven’t? Are you sure I haven’t taken my own personal time I could have spent spending with my family (sacrifice), and gone to the streets to witness to others, in the name of Jesus Christ, this year, last year, years prior? Seems a bit pre-judgmental, wouldn’t you agree? All my point was, is that is not a position we have any claim to be in. There is only one Jesus Christ, perfect in all His ways, destined to become the living sacrifice, to be the propitiation for us, a fallen race, in need of HIs salvation.

    Would I step in harms way to protect my fellow man? Yes I would. I hold fast to the sanctity of life, especially for the ones I love. But to say if I were Jesus, really isn’t my place to say, and especially to say that it wasn’t that big a sacrifice. How would I know that?

    – “I sincerely don’t think 500 Questions is among them. Here we try not to bash but to ask, to get explained. And rather respectfully, I would say.”
    – “Jesus claimed that all prayers will be answered, but amputees don’t get healed (while many pray for it). ”
    – ” Why would the scripture be inspired by god? ”
    -” Wouldn’t you be willing to go to hell for only three days ”

    Arista, I see these, as a Christian, belittling (bashing) God, His Word, and His works, and His Son Jesus.
    These are just to name a few. This may not have been your intention. I tell you this so you see how I see it.

    It’s not our place to attempt to put God in a box. He is eternal. Who made God? He is eternal. Why did He make up all these laws? He is God. He is looking out for us, His creation, and wants us to love Him, and to follow His commandments. God is righteous, loving, just. To try and just explain God away, and dismiss His word and say He did it wrong, or only got it half right, is to say we know better than God.

    It’s like the board telling the carpenter, “Why did you cut me so short? I wanted to be a lot longer!” But at that time, that carpenter had a reason for cutting that board at that particular length. There was a need for the structure, and the carpenter knew just how to use that board.
    I truly think at times we get in our way of ourselves, and don’t let God work with us, not for our benefit, but to glorify the Father, and to better aid those around us.

    Faith without works is no good.
    Works alone, with no faith, is no good.
    Works through faith
    and faith through works, is GOOD!
    Faith and works are meant to be together, not separated.

    Put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ, Arista. Start working towards the narrow path of righteousness, towards Jesus and His teachings, His commandments. Give your life over to Him, and He will do incredible works through you. It starts with repentance. Wether you believe it or not, you are a sinner, in need of a Savior, Who’s name is Jesus Christ. You want proof? Look in the mirror, and tell me you came about by random chance processes. You are so much more than that!! You are a work of GOD! Is there something in your life that keeps you at such a distance from God, or Jesus? You either accept that you are some primordial ooze that randomly became Arista over bazillions of years or whatever the number is up to now. Or trust in the One responsible for your very existence. Our Creator loves you very much, and He is making Himself known to you each and every day. Listen, look and recognize His voice. Answer His call. His account in Scripture isn’t just some story, written by men. It is His Holy Word. Treat it as such. He deserves so much better than what is being given to Him today, even on this site. If you honestly want Truth, you will find it in Jesus Christ, Who IS Truth.

    What would it take for you to put your faith in Jesus Christ? The works of the Holy Spirit. Cry out to Jesus Christ for redemption, and He will hear your prayer and save you. This site has brought up some interesting points, none of which will loosen my faith, shake my foundations in His Word, but have caused me to delve deeper and deeper into His Word. Is it pride, or just your inquisitive nature, that keeps you from accepting the Holy Bible as factual, and not fictional? Man’s word versus God’s Word. That is the fight. Who do you think will come out on top?

    Let’s say you go to a stream and put seven fossil rocks in a jar. Would you say you had seven fossils in the jar? You put them out on a table, and count seven. So, are there seven fossils? Are there seven rocks? What if one of the rock fossils had TWO fossils in it? Let’s say one of the fossil rocks had ten plus fossils in it? Then we might have eighteen plus fossils in it, right? What if you then put all the fossil rocks back in the jar, and then claimed, “There are at least 18 fossils in this jar.” Would you be right, or wrong? Maybe your friend doesn’t believe in fossils, and sees the ‘rocks’ you have in the jar, and tells you those are just neatly formed rocks, aged by wind, sand and water. There is no purpose or reason behind it; they’re just rocks.” But you explain to your friend that these fossil rocks take on the shape of clams, like we caught at the beach a year ago, just so much smaller! And this one looks like it could be corral, like in the ocean! And so on. Who is right? Are they fossils? Are they rocks? Is it true that maybe fossils don’t exist, and they really are just rocks, since your friend is a really good friend, and is very smart? Your friend would never lie to you. Maybe your friend was misinformed by some article or text book that exclaimed there are no true fossils in the world, just differently shaped rocks, period! Or maybe, your friend has never heard of fossil rocks, and has just been exposed to them by your jar of fossil rocks. So, you take your information, write it all down, telling of your account of the rocks, fossils, your friend and all others you encountered regarding your fossil rock find in the stream. Several decades pass, as well as you, and someone comes upon your writings. Who is to say you ever came across these fossil rocks in a stream that day, and can verify your account? The person who came upon your writings, verifies your writings with another person’s writings that wrote about you and your fossil rocks, and your doubting friend, and so on. Does this verify or deny that you, the fossil rocks, the stream, your friends, any or none of them ever existed?

    Praise be to the One who can soften hardened hearts, remove scales from eyes, and draw them ever so close to Him, Who is Jesus Christ. He is so much more credible than what we give Him credit for. Don’t be so prideful in believing you got it right, and God got it wrong.

    Blessings

  31. markHisway says:

    I heard an interesting analogy in one of John Lennox’s discussions about God and the understanding of the fall of man. Forgive me, because I am paraphrasing. It went something like this:
    “If a married man and woman made a decision, before conceiving a child, to have a child or not, should they NOT have a child, based strictly on the possibility that one day that child may grow up with the ability to tell their parent(s) ‘No.’, going against their very guidance and instruction?”

    “Create medicine and law… create a better world for everyone.”.
    We are made in the image of God. We are powerless without His power. We are dependent on His grace and mercy. We all may not believe it, but it is true. There is some belief you have, wether or not you believe I am writing to you, responding to your comments. This all is made available through our Creator God. Without Jesus Christ, nothing was made that was made.

    To satisfy your need to know as to what I would do if I had the power of God, if I were God, if I were Jesus Christ, I believe I would speak for anyone who has at least half a heart, that they would do the same, but look at the position that puts anyone in. It is still an impossible situation. It’s like, if you were me, wouldn’t you repent of your sins and follow Christ Jesus? I have. Why wouldn’t you? Don’t you want the gift of salvation only available through Jesus? Are you saying you don’t care about your eternity, and where you will spend it? I guess so. Rejection of God, and of His Son, is an acceptance of eternity without them, which is in a place called hell. I don’t want that for anyone, even you, Arista. By not answering if I would do that, was not saying I do not sacrifice for you (“you are not willing to make any sacrifices for us”). To whom ‘us’ are you referring? How do you know I haven’t? Are you sure I haven’t taken my own personal time I could have spent spending with my family (sacrifice), and gone to the streets to witness to others, in the name of Jesus Christ, this year, last year, years prior? Seems a bit pre-judgmental, wouldn’t you agree? All my point was, is that is not a position we have any claim to be in. There is only one Jesus Christ, perfect in all His ways, destined to become the living sacrifice, to be the propitiation for us, a fallen race, in need of HIs salvation.

    Would I step in harms way to protect my fellow man? Yes I would. I hold fast to the sanctity of life, especially for the ones I love. But to say if I were Jesus, really isn’t my place to say, and especially to say that it wasn’t that big a sacrifice. How would I know that?

    – “I sincerely don’t think 500 Questions is among them. Here we try not to bash but to ask, to get explained. And rather respectfully, I would say.”
    – “Jesus claimed that all prayers will be answered, but amputees don’t get healed (while many pray for it). ”
    – ” Why would the scripture be inspired by god? ”
    -” Wouldn’t you be willing to go to hell for only three days ”

    Arista, I see these, as a Christian, belittling (bashing) God, His Word, and His works, and His Son Jesus.
    These are just to name a few. This may not have been your intention. I tell you this so you see how I see it.

    It’s not our place to attempt to put God in a box. He is eternal. Who made God? He is eternal. Why did He make up all these laws? He is God. He is looking out for us, His creation, and wants us to love Him, and to follow His commandments. God is righteous, loving, just. To try and just explain God away, and dismiss His word and say He did it wrong, or only got it half right, is to say we know better than God.

    It’s like the board telling the carpenter, “Why did you cut me so short? I wanted to be a lot longer!” But at that time, that carpenter had a reason for cutting that board at that particular length. There was a need for the structure, and the carpenter knew just how to use that board.
    I truly think at times we get in our way of ourselves, and don’t let God work with us, not for our benefit, but to glorify the Father, and to better aid those around us.

    Faith without works is no good.
    Works alone, with no faith, is no good.
    Works through faith
    and faith through works, is GOOD!
    Faith and works are meant to be together, not separated.

    Put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ, Arista. Start working towards the narrow path of righteousness, towards Jesus and His teachings, His commandments. Give your life over to Him, and He will do incredible works through you. It starts with repentance. Wether you believe it or not, you are a sinner, in need of a Savior, Who’s name is Jesus Christ. You want proof? Look in the mirror, and tell me you came about by random chance processes. You are so much more than that!! You are a work of GOD! Is there something in your life that keeps you at such a distance from God, or Jesus? You either accept that you are some primordial ooze that randomly became Arista over bazillions of years or whatever the number is up to now. Or trust in the One responsible for your very existence. Our Creator loves you very much, and He is making Himself known to you each and every day. Listen, look and recognize His voice. Answer His call. His account in Scripture isn’t just some story, written by men. It is His Holy Word. Treat it as such. He deserves so much better than what is being given to Him today, even on this site. If you honestly want Truth, you will find it in Jesus Christ, Who IS Truth.

    What would it take for you to put your faith in Jesus Christ? The works of the Holy Spirit. Cry out to Jesus Christ for redemption, and He will hear your prayer and save you. This site has brought up some interesting points, none of which will loosen my faith, shake my foundations in His Word, but have caused me to delve deeper and deeper into His Word. Is it pride, or just your inquisitive nature, that keeps you from accepting the Holy Bible as factual, and not fictional? Man’s word versus God’s Word. That is the fight. Who do you think will come out on top?

    Let’s say you go to a stream and put seven fossil rocks in a jar. Would you say you had seven fossils in the jar? You put them out on a table, and count seven. So, are there seven fossils? Are there seven rocks? What if one of the rock fossils had TWO fossils in it? Let’s say one of the fossil rocks had ten plus fossils in it? Then we might have eighteen plus fossils in it, right? What if you then put all the fossil rocks back in the jar, and then claimed, “There are at least 18 fossils in this jar.” Would you be right, or wrong? Maybe your friend doesn’t believe in fossils, and sees the ‘rocks’ you have in the jar, and tells you those are just neatly formed rocks, aged by wind, sand and water. There is no purpose or reason behind it; they’re just rocks.” But you explain to your friend that these fossil rocks take on the shape of clams, like we caught at the beach a year ago, just so much smaller! And this one looks like it could be corral, like in the ocean! And so on. Who is right? Are they fossils? Are they rocks? Is it true that maybe fossils don’t exist, and they really are just rocks, since your friend is a really good friend, and is very smart? Your friend would never lie to you. Maybe your friend was misinformed by some article or text book that exclaimed there are no true fossils in the world, just differently shaped rocks, period! Or maybe, your friend has never heard of fossil rocks, and has just been exposed to them by your jar of fossil rocks. So, you take your information, write it all down, telling of your account of the rocks, fossils, your friend and all others you encountered regarding your fossil rock find in the stream. Several decades pass, as well as you, and someone comes upon your writings. Who is to say you ever came across these fossil rocks in a stream that day, and can verify your account? The person who came upon your writings, verifies your writings with another person’s writings that wrote about you and your fossil rocks, and your doubting friend, and so on. Does this verify or deny that you, the fossil rocks, the stream, your friends, any or none of them ever existed?

    Praise be to the One who can soften hardened hearts, remove scales from eyes, and draw them ever so close to Him, Who is Jesus Christ. He is so much more credible than what we give Him credit for. Don’t be so prideful in believing you got it right, and God got it wrong.

    Blessings

    • Arista says:

      MarkHISWay,

      Thanks for your lengthy response.

      What I tried to make clear with my reply, is that claims need to be backed up by evidence. If my car disappears, I claim that it got stolen or towed, based on the evidence of everyday life, If cookies disappear from the jar, I’m sure one of my kids took them without asking my permission, based on everyday life.

      I would never claim that 7 rocks contain only 7 fossils, because indeed, one or more rocks may contain 2 or more fossils, or no fossils at all. So I would not claim anything, until the evidence has shown me what the reality is. I would not claim anything based on belief, I would wait for a claim based on where the evidence leads me.

      Instead, you come in here to spout claim upon claim upon claim about god, without any evidence to back it up.

      ‘We are made in the image of God.’
      ‘We are powerless without His power.’
      ‘We are dependent on His grace and mercy.’
      ‘This all is made available through our Creator God.’
      ‘Without Jesus Christ, nothing was made that was made.’

      5 Claims, but where is your proof? Where is your evidence? Without proof and evidence, we can claim whatever we want. We can claim that the Qu’aran is right. We can claim that the Hindus are right. We can claim that aliens brought us here. We can claim mermaids, unicorns and the Loch Ness monster exist. I could claim that I’m the president of the US. I could claim that I have a holiday home on the planet Venus. Should we go around believing everything everybody claims?

      I for one require evidence. I don’t claim that mermaids exist, so I don’t have to prove that they do. I don’t claim the Qua’ran is right, so I don’t have to prove that it is. I don’t claim god exists, and that he endorses the bible, so i don’t have to prove anything in that regard either.

      You make the claims – regarding god, jesus and bible. You back it up.

      What do you got?

      Regards,

  32. Arista says:

    In addition, if Jesus was really sacrificed, how come the holy trinity still exists? The moment Jesus was sacrificed – to pay for our sins -, and therefore was seperated from god, the holy trinity should have ceased to be. We should only have god and the holy spirit, with jesus being seperated in hell. If that would have been for eternity, then god did indeed give us his only begotten son. But the fact that Jesus is alive and well, sitting right next to the throne, and is still a part of the trinity, it looks like his sacrifice was just a short and temporary affair. But when we go to hell, it is for all eternity. How does that add up?

  33. Arista says:

    In conclusion, I have asked yahweh/allah/jesus/vishnu/el/thor/zeus many times to reveal himself. God knows what is needed to convince me of his existence and his wishes. He has yet to respond.
    Many christian/jewish/muslims friends pray for me and to their god to reveal himself to me. No results yet. And as one can only believe in sincerity, I have no other option than to sincerely disbelieve.

  34. markHisway says:

    What if God were using someone on the internet, on 500 Questions, under question 28, to reveal Himself to you? Or maybe someone else, for that matter? Don’t you have a mirror to see yourself? Even if you had the rock fossils in your hand, right in front of you, still no belief? The description, what you see, matches a book on fossils, shells and corral. Maybe if you solely asked the one true God, instead of all the rest, He would reveal Himself. I believe He already has, through His creation.

    You can’t get life from non-life.
    http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

    If I didn’t care about you, Arista, and anyone else reading this, I wouldn’t post anything. There would be no need in my heart. But I DO have a need in my heart.

    Still skeptical? Many answers to questions on this site are here:
    http://www.alwaysbeready.com/answers-to-questions

    A source to your question:
    “If the penalty for our sins is eternity in hell, how did Jesus’ death pay our penalty if He did not spend eternity in hell?”
    Sin against an infinite God must be paid infinitely. That is why payment for our sin must be infinite. There are only two options for infinite payment. Either a finite creature (man) must pay for his sin for an infinite amount of time, or an infinite Being (Jesus) must pay for it once for all men for all time. There are no other options. A sin against an infinitely holy God requires and equally infinite satisfaction as payment, and even an eternity in hell will not dissipate God’s infinite, righteous wrath against sin. Only a divine Being could withstand the infinite wrath of a holy God against our sin. It requires an equally infinite Being as a substitute for mankind to satisfy God’s wrath. Jesus, as the God-man, fits the bill perfectly.
    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-paid-penalty.html#ixzz3C54JfIRG

    I posted these links because you seem to not be listening to me. I figure maybe someone else can shed light where it may have a greater impact. God’s Word is where you will find Truth, which is what you stated you are about. Evidence is what you’re about. It’s out there. God has given it to you. If you don’t have a bible, here is another link:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/

    You claim you have “no results yet.” Are you absolutely sure of that?

    Your sincerity of disbelief will answer you one day. I believe it already has.

    May He [Jesus] give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Psalm 20:4

    Blessings

  35. Arista says:

    MarkHISWay,

    ‘What if God were using someone on the internet, on 500 Questions, under question 28, to reveal Himself to you?’

    Wouldn’t that interfere with the free will of that person? And even if god did use someone else, how can you prove that he did? Besides, god knows were I live and he knows that the beer is waiting for him in the fridge. He is always welcome for a chat.

    ‘Don’t you have a mirror to see yourself?’

    Sure, what about it?

    ‘Even if you had the rock fossils in your hand, right in front of you, still no belief?’

    That would not be belief, but evidence. I don’t believe I have a bike, I know I have a bike. Now if you would ask me how many hairs I have on my head, then I just utter a believe, like ‘I believe 56,679, 33’, as there is no way I can know for sure.

    ‘He would reveal Himself. I believe He already has, through His creation.’

    Muslims think he has done so too. Revealing himself through creation and therefore proving the Qur’an to be right. Hindus do the same with their book. Mormons too. I guess they are all correct?

    ‘You can’t get life from non-life. http://www.creationism.org/heinze/SciEvidGodLife.htm

    Creationism is pseudo-science and as such can’t be trusted. The evidence should lead to a conclusion. Creationists try to lead a conclusion to evidence. Frankly, we just don’t know yet if we can’t get life from non-life. But not knowing is fine. And it is definitely better than to chose unsupported claims about magic (‘god did it’).

    ‘If I didn’t care about you, Arista, and anyone else reading this, I wouldn’t post anything. There would be no need in my heart. But I DO have a need in my heart.’

    Thanks. I appreciate that. I care about you too. I also have no problem with you believing what you believe. But if you want me to believe it too, you have to provide evidence. Up till now you really haven’t.

    ‘A source to your question’

    That answer doesn’t say anything about the 3 day limitations of the sacrifice. You keep linking to GotQuestions, but as Rautakyy has already pointed out: that site uses a lot of words to hide that they usually don’t actually answer the question. And the bottom line to a lot of their answers is: ‘just shut up and believe.’

    ‘I posted these links because you seem to not be listening to me.’

    I am listening to you, but you don’t provide answers. You just keep repeating scripture without backing up that scripture with evidence, proof or applied logic. I have seen you do this with your responses to Rautakyy and Garbonzo too. Repeating something over and over and over doesn’t magically make it true.

    Therefore, please provide proof for the following claims:

    ‘We are made in the image of God.’
    ‘We are powerless without His power.’
    ‘We are dependent on His grace and mercy.’
    ‘This all is made available through our Creator God.’
    ‘Without Jesus Christ, nothing was made that was made.’

    ‘God’s Word is where you will find Truth’

    And another claim, please prove this too.

    ‘If you don’t have a bible…’

    Which bible? There are many different versions, some with up to 81 books within its cover. How do you know which one gets it right?

    I myself have a King James bible and I have read it too. It convinced me that it is a work of human hands. Have you read the Torah/Tanakh? I advice you to do so, as it shows you how these texts were altered to become the Old Testament and make it connect more to Jesus’ supposed fulfillment of prophecy. It also gives a good idea why the Jews (and I) can’t accept Jesus as the messiah he is claimed to be (this gives you a good start: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html – but don’t believe me or that website: research the evidence for yourself).

    ‘You claim you have “no results yet.” Are you absolutely sure of that?’

    Sure, why would I lie about it? What is the use in denying a belief in god if one actually does belief in god? That would be silly (and, considering what the scripture claims, dangerous too). I see no proof that a god exists. And I definitely see no proof that any of the holy books known to man are endorsed by god (Torah, Bible, Qur’an, etc.). If I did, I would obviously believe in them and live my life accordingly.

    ‘Your sincerity of disbelief will answer you one day. I believe it already has.’

    If you say so.

    ‘May He [Jesus] give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Psalm 20:4’

    May the force be with you.

    All my best,

  36. markHisway says:

    Arista,

    Who do you trust, then?
    Why would you say, “Not that I want him [Jesus] there [hell]… if there wasn’t a shred of belief you have in Him [Jesus]? Also, just curious, you were capitalizing Jesus’ name before, and your last post, you haven’t. How come? Is it the same reason you spell markHisway like ‘markHISway’? We all make mistakes. Just be sure the mistakes you make aren’t eternal ones. I know, I know, you want proof, evidence, etc. I would have thought the ‘fossil rocks’ analogy/example would have been your ‘proof’, or ‘evidence’, your ‘belief’ in fossils and rocks, hence fossil rocks. Do you ‘believe’ in your children, the ones of whom may have taken the cookies? If you don’t, do they know you don’t? There’s nothing parasitic about saying you ‘believe’ in something, is there? Would you or would you not, believe I exist, and have been corresponding to you on this web site? Why is it I type these responses to you, or rautakyy, or garbonzo, or Nathan, or 500Q? Because it is part of who I am, as a Bible believer, Christ follower. I care for people to know Truth. I am deeply saddened you continue to refuse Jesus, and His Word. But, it’s not up to me to move/grow you. That job belongs to the Holy Spirit. It is my job to proclaim my faith, and give answers to questions of the Truth that resides within me. If you feel in your mind, based on what I have or haven’t given you is or isn’t plausible, what more can I do, than pray the Holy Spirit move you. I am sorry that in your eyes, I have failed you. I am no expert in law, theology, biology, astrophysics, mathematics, anthropology or astronomy. I’m just a simple human wanting the best for my fellow humans. I do wish you the best, and that one day someone or something may show you the Truth you are looking for.

    Blessings

  37. Arista says:

    MarkHisway,

    ‘Who do you trust, then?’

    Those I know to exist: people. But trust is something that needs to be earned. So I trust strangers only to a certain extent (I would not give them my banking information, for instance). And those strangers that turn out to be fun to hang out with and to be trustworthy turned into friends; and one of them even into my wife. Do I trust her? Yes. Based on? Our shared history together. Is it possible that she betrays me (in whatever way)? Sure – it has happened to other people who were completely oblivious to what happened behind their backs, so it could happen to me, too. What then? We’ll see about that when we get there, because I’d rather live my life based on observable truth than on what might or could be.

    ‘Why would you say, “Not that I want him [Jesus] there [hell]… if there wasn’t a shred of belief you have in Him [Jesus]?’

    I don’t have a shred of faith in the Jesus as portrayed in the bible, Qur’an or the Book of Mormon (because these Jesusses are all different, you know). I don’t have a shred of faith in the existence of hell either. But if such a reprehensible place exists, it is my human compassion that wishes for no one to be inside of it. No one deserves a fate like that. There is a reason we don’t roast our criminals over an open fire till the day they die. There is a reason we don’t mutilate our prisoners on the main square anymore. The middle ages are a long time ago and let’s make sure it stays that way. (Looking at you, ISIS…)

    ‘Also, just curious, you were capitalizing Jesus’ name before, and your last post, you haven’t. How come? Is it the same reason you spell markHisway like ‘markHISway’?’

    No particular or deliberate reason. This is a spell-check issue, I guess.

    ‘We all make mistakes. Just be sure the mistakes you make aren’t eternal ones.’

    You pulled this one before, and I always let you get away with it. Not today. This is nothing more than an argument from fear. Believe, or else! It also implies Pascal’s Wager. Well MarkHisway, what if YOU are wrong? What are you gonna say when you find yourself in the court of the One and Almighty God, Allah of Islam? If you answer ‘I know I can trust god and therefore this is not gonna happen’, please realize that Muslims say this too in regard to them surprisingly appearing before the Christian god. Do you know this won’t happen because the bible has stood the test of time over and over again? Muslims say the same thing in regard to the Qur’an. Do you know this is not going to happen because the holy spirit guides you? Muslims are convinced Allah guides them. And if you link to another page from Got Questions, realize Muslims do this too with an Islamic version of the Got Questions website. So how do we determine who got it right, if any?

    ‘I know, I know, you want proof, evidence, etc.’

    Bingo! Thanks for providing the answer yourself.

    You know I require proof and evidence, but do you also understand why?

    ‘I would have thought the ‘fossil rocks’ analogy/example would have been your ‘proof’, or ‘evidence’, your ‘belief’ in fossils and rocks, hence fossil rocks.’

    The fact that fossils play a role in particular fields of science does not imply that when you use the word ‘fossils’ in an analogy that your argument is automatically scientifically sound.

    ‘Do you ‘believe’ in your children, the ones of whom may have taken the cookies? If you don’t, do they know you don’t?’

    As a father I will always give them the benefit of the doubt. But when they let me down, I do let them know that, in the hope they learn something from the experience. But they also know I’m always giving them the option to redeem themselves. In the end, the truth of the matter is that I don’t own them. They are people of their own who have their own choices to make. I can only guide them where they allow me; a little less every day (all part of growing up into an autonomous human being).

    ‘There’s nothing parasitic about saying you ‘believe’ in something, is there?’

    The word ‘believe’ has different definitions and usages. I believe the sun to ‘rise’ in the morning. Why? Because it has done so for every day in my life, and the lives of all the people in know. Comes the day that the sun doesn’t rise? Then – and only then – is it time to alter my belief. Then the evidence has led me to a different conclusion.

    ‘Would you or would you not, believe I exist, and have been corresponding to you on this web site?’

    Based on past experiences I think I know that bots aren’t advanced enough yet to respond to me in the way you have done. So yeah, evidence leads me to conclude that I have been dealing with a human being. But I have no possible way to know if have been dealing with only one human, or a whole group of them, or a different one at each time, and if you are male or female. So I refrain from making any claims in that regard. Not enough evidence.

    ‘I am deeply saddened you continue to refuse Jesus, and His Word.’

    One can’t refuse something that one doesn’t think exists. I can’t refuse a drink that has yet to be invented. I can’t refuse the wishes of an unborn child. The lack of belief in a god does not equal a refusal. Only if I would say ‘I believe Jesus from the bible to exist but I deliberately decide not to follow him’, have I actually refused him. That belief, however, is lacking.

    ‘I have failed you.’

    To write that you have failed me implies that I had certain expectations that you haven’t met. This is not the case. I’m not here to judge, just to exchange ideas and viewpoints. I am not here to exclaim that I’m right. I’m just here to explain why I reached the position I currently hold in life. I’m open to be persuaded to change that position if one comes with convincing arguments. In that regard, I do like to point out that in most of your responses you always seem to skip over the specific questions people ask you, while those same people – like Garbonzo, Rautakyy, 500 Questions, me (hopefully) – do usually take the time to provide a detailed answer to every specific question you have asked.

    ‘I am no expert in law, theology, biology, astrophysics, mathematics, anthropology or astronomy.’

    Well, what is stopping you to become an expert, or to at least become someone with a deeper, personal interest in these topics? In the past one had to go to the library, but nowadays we have the internet. Tremendous amounts of information are just a click away. When I started to read the bible, I became interested in the history, theology and archeology behind it; and it turned out I found those fields to be far more interesting than what the bible itself actually says. The Qur’an is filled with stories about Adam, Eve, Moses, Abraham, and Jesus too, that are just a little different from how they are written in the bible. Are you aware that Muslims claim that god send Jesus as a prophet but that the people made mistakes when they wrote down Jesus’ teachings and that therefore god had to sent another prophet, Muhammad, to lay down the teachings again, and that the Qur’an finally got it right? I find this fascinating. Also: how come that the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is their Messiah – starting with the Jews that were actually alive when Jesus walked the earth? There have been Jews that saw Jesus with their own eyes and still they weren’t buying. How can you not be interested in researching the root of this?

    In that regard, I gave you a link to a Jewish website – some sort of Jewish version of Got Questions. Did you even read that link? And even if you did read it: did you have an open mind to what was written, or did you read it with an automatically activated defense wall telling you that the information simply has to be wrong? Wouldn’t you think it is interesting to compare their view on this matter with the view of Got Questions? Don’t you think it is interesting to focus on the differences of the two and then to research these differences as neutrally and objectively as possible to find out who most likely got it wrong and who got it right (as they can’t be both correct; their statements contradict). Don’t you think that if you ask a Christian about how to translate certain key words from Hebrew that he will translate it to the benefit of his faith, but when you ask a Jew that he will then translate those same words to the benefit of his own faith? And that therefore it is best to ask a specialist who is neither Jew nor Christian (or Muslim), because he/she has nothing to lose or gain with the translation of certain words, and therefore, is most likely to give you the objective, neutral and real meaning and original usage of the word?

    ‘I’m just a simple human wanting the best for my fellow humans.’

    And so am I. The difference is that I don’t go around thinking that most of them rightfully deserve an eternity in hell. People are beautiful, funny, weird, inspirational, smart, compassionate, original… And most of them don’t hurt a fly. And, people have imagination too. Just look at all the art they created, all the music, all the culture, and, wait for it, all the different gods and faiths. We are an amazing species.

    ‘I do wish you the best, and that one day someone or something may show you the Truth you are looking for.’

    I do wish you the best also. I have been searching for the truth all my life, just like you (I presume). I just ended up with a different truth than you did. Mine is based on proof, evidence and research. What is yours based on?

    All my best,

  38. markHisway says:

    I searched, and found Jesus Christ to be the True foundation of Truth.
    It’s based on Biblical Truth, which is the Ultimate Truth.
    It’s based on evidence, found in and throughout the known universe.
    I have and continue to search in and through the Scriptures, drawing me closer to Christ.

    Yes, I did read into the link you posted. Like others, it’s interesting. I did look at it objectively. Here’s another:
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-reject-Jesus.html

    “‘Don’t you have a mirror to see yourself?’
    “Sure, what about it?””
    Looking in the mirror, you are made in the image of God. Also, you can cry. You have emotions, unlike anything else in the living creation, amongst also having a soul. Mankind is set apart from all other creation.

    “‘What if God were using someone on the internet, on 500 Questions, under question 28, to reveal Himself to you?’
    Wouldn’t that interfere with the free will of that person?”
    No, not of free will, but of an influence, not power over, possibly by the work of the Holy Spirit.
    The Lord works in mysterious ways.

    “Now if you would ask me how many hairs I have on my head, then I just utter a believe, like ‘I believe 56,679, 33′, as there is no way I can know for sure.”
    Luke 12:7 (NKJV)
    7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

    “Creationism is pseudo-science and as such can’t be trusted. “
    To what authority makes your knowledge and conclusions more believable?
    https://answersingenesis.org/what-is-science/pseudoscience-more-or-less/
    http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-true/the-evidence-for-christianity

    “People are beautiful, funny, weird, inspirational, smart, compassionate, original… And most of them don’t hurt a fly. And, people have imagination too. Just look at all the art they created, all the music, all the culture, and, wait for it, all the different gods and faiths. We are an amazing species.”
    Yes, the ‘human race’ is very creative, on both sides of the spectrum: good and evil. I lean on the good side, but can’t ignore the ‘bad’. Some of them will and do ‘cut one’s head off’, naming Isis (I hope you weren’t lumping me in with this cruel group).

    So how do we determine who got it right, if any? (I know, another link to got questions; don’t hate me for it, eh?)
    http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html

    I appreciate all the time you have given me, giving your side of the argument, and appreciate your openness and being up front with your opinion. I know I don’t have all the answers to all the questions you and everyone else has. I have done my best in giving you evidences, regardless of your acceptance.
    Once again, I am not God, but aim to be like His Son, Jesus.

    The following may be why you don’t accept Truth, that is, Jesus Christ:

    John chapter 1:1-5
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    1 Corinthians 1:18
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    I hope you have endured with me thus far, and ask you continue.
    This next part you may have already been asked before, either in part by me, or someone else.
    Please keep an open mind, and read this like you’ve never heard this before.
    These questions come with utmost respect and sincerity.
    You don’t need to share your results,
    for this is between you and Him.

    Have you ever murdered anyone?
    Perhaps you’ve hated someone, or called them a fool,
    then the Bible says that you are a murderer. Matthew 5:21-22

    Have you ever told any lies in your life?
    It only takes one to become a liar.

    Have you ever stolen something, irrespective of its value?
    One only needs to steal just once is to be labeled a thief.

    Have you ever taken the Lord’s name in vain?
    If you have used His name in vain, then you are guilty of “blasphemy”
    — you’ve substituted God’s holy Name for a curse word.

    Have you ever committed adultery?
    Have you ever looked at a woman with lust?
    The Bible says you have already committed adultery in your heart. Matthew 5:27-28

    Have you put other things (gods) before God Almighty?
    Have you had something you may have paid more attention to than God (idols)?
    Have you always honored your father and mother?
    Have you not honored the Sabbath day and not kept it holy?
    Have you ever coveted your neighbor’s things?

    If you’ve answered yes to any of these questions (commandments),
    Than in light of your own admission,
    if God were to judge you by the standard of these commandments,
    do you think you would be found innocent or guilty
    Before an All-perfect, All-knowing righteous Judge, God?

    Would you be going to heaven or hell?”

    Revelation 21:8 reads –
    8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    We are all sinners, in need of a Savior. We all fall short of the Glory of God (Romans 3:23).

    The Good News!

    God sent His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, to die in our place, for the covering of sins of mankind, because He loves us that much!
    Jesus came to die for many (but some would not believe).
    He rose on the third day, and is seated at the right hand of the Father God, in heaven.

    John chapter 3:18-21
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Repent and put your faith and trust in Christ Jesus.

    He and only He can and will save you.

    You can’t save yourself.

    When will you die?

    Do you know?

    God knows.

    Judgment Day is coming.

    Stop running from God.

    Be ready in Christ Jesus for His coming.

    Blessings

  39. Arista says:

    MarkHisWay,

    ‘I searched, and found Jesus Christ to be the True foundation of Truth.’

    Muslims, Hindus, Odinists, the Jedi, etc. search too, and find another foundation of truth. How is your way of searching for truth better than theirs? What method(s) do you use?

    ‘It’s based on Biblical Truth, which is the Ultimate Truth.’

    Please prove this.

    ‘It’s based on evidence, found in and throughout the known universe.’

    What evidence?

    ‘Yes, I did read into the link you posted. Like others, it’s interesting. I did look at it objectively. Here’s another: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jews-reject-Jesus.html’

    That link doesn’t say anything about why the Jews have it wrong. My link said a lot about why Christians have it wrong, though. Try harder.

    ‘Looking in the mirror, you are made in the image of God.’

    Please prove this.

    ‘Also, you can cry. You have emotions, unlike anything else in the living creation, amongst also having a soul.’

    I don’t know if you have pets. I had them all my life. They definitely come with emotions too. Sometimes they are cranky. Sometimes they are playful. Sometimes they are bored. Sometimes they are angry. Sometimes they want to cuddle. Sometimes they just want to be alone.

    Also: please prove we have a soul.
    And: please prove animals don’t

    ‘Mankind is set apart from all other creation.’
    Please prove this.

    ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’
    Please prove this.

    ‘Luke 12:7 (NKJV) 7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.’
    Please prove this.

    ‘To what authority makes your knowledge and conclusions more believable?’

    A Christian friend of mine was once working on a book. His objective was that he had never heard of people seeing Muhammad or any other prophet (or deity) of another faith during a near-death-experience. He claimed that people only ever saw god or Jesus. This was proof for him that his faith was true. Intrigued, my first question to him was: did you ever talk about this with Muslims, Hindus, etc? He stated that he hadn’t, and also hinted that he didn’t plan on doing so. To me this is proof that this friend wasn’t interested in the truth at all. The only thing he was interested in was information that would validate him in his preconceived notion of what he wanted the truth to be. So I did some research myself, and not surprisingly: people see all kinds of things during near-death-experiences. Muslims do see Muhammad. And people of other faiths experience their prophets, angels, and what have you, too. My friend’s book never made it to the market…

    Another example: I once went to school to study Business Plan Writing. The classroom was filled with people that were convinced that they had come up with a golden business idea; something unique and something that would make them rich. So the first thing you learn is to do proper market research. Your research might tell you that there simply is no market for your product or service; no one is likely to buy. Or you may discover that your amazing idea has already been used by other companies, including, in some cases, a company that already uses the clever business name you wanted to use, and already has secured the big costumers you wanted to approach. To my amazement, quite a large bunch of classmates didn’t do any proper research at all. They just didn’t want the truth to trample their dreams. But that is exactly what happened to them anyway…

    These two examples are more or less how creationism works too. Creationists don’t follow the evidence. They have already made up their minds about what the conclusion should be (‘we are created’) and shy away from finding any information that might contradict this. Seriously, MarkHisway, be as Christian as you want to be, but please by hypercritical about creationism. Besides: the proof is in the pudding. Creationism never brought us functional medicine, or working computers, or electricity, or new sources of energy, or a space program, or the internet. Why? Because reality doesn’t bent to what creationists wish to be real. I truly would never set foot in an airplane built by a creationist…

    What DID bring us all these things? Ah, science! Now science isn’t holy either, but at least the root of the scientific method is that independent peer groups try to do whatever they can to disprove anything another scientist has just researched and (he thinks) is proven to be right. In other words, unlike creationism, my Christian friend and some of my classmates, science doesn’t shy away from information that may hurt its claims. On the contrary: searching for this information is the very backbone of science. I learned that approaching everyday life like this works best for me personally too.

    The thing with science however, is that it can only be used to research that which can be tested. That should not be a problem, except that there are people that are sure that there exists many a thing outside of observable reality. How do they know this? Because these very things outside of observable reality tell them so! In other words: they claim we can know things because some outside force puts this information in our heads. I find that intriguing, and am open to the suggestion, but I have yet to see any proof of this. If one becomes a Christian, one still needs to read the bible, as all that information doesn’t seem to magically pop up in ones head. In researching the holy spirit (on Got Questions, for instance) I learned that if ones hears a voice or feels like making a certain decision, the only way to find out if this is the holy spirit at work is to compare it to what is written in the bible first. If it corresponds with the bible, then it is the holy spirit. If it doesn’t, then it is just you, or a demon. Seriously? What kind of a shady motivator is that? How come that the story of Christianity (or any other faith) seems to be able to travel by mouth alone? If god can plant information in our heads out of nowhere, how come the missionaries never encounter someone in a far and distant land that says: ‘Jesus? Oh, we have known about him for ages. Even before you did, actually!’ So no, I am not impressed. I dare even say that it is most likely that if mankind would lose all its memories and all its knowledge as of right now, we will – with time – regain everything we have ever known before through science. But the story about your talking serpent and the forbidden fruit will be lost forever…

    ‘Yes, the ‘human race’ is very creative, on both sides of the spectrum: good and evil. I lean on the good side, but can’t ignore the ‘bad’. Some of them will and do ‘cut one’s head off’, naming Isis (I hope you weren’t lumping me in with this cruel group).’

    Isis is not mankind’s shining moment, no. I am not lumping you in personally, but I am not so sure about your god. Drowning mankind, creating laws that allow people to stone each other or to hold and beat slaves, turning someone into a pillar of salt, killing all the firstborns of Egypt, requiring the crucifixion of your own son to pay a debt, and – the most cruel thing of all – devising a place called hell where the pain, torture and despair are more cruel and severe than anything Isis could ever dream to come up with; and for all eternity to boot! Huge parts of mankind have evolved since the middle ages. Unfortunately their gods didn’t seem to have caught up with the times…

    ‘I know, another link to got questions; don’t hate me for it, eh?): http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html’

    From that link:

    ‘He (God) is:

    • Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known)’
    Please prove that he created all that is known.

    ‘• Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Timeless and changeless (He created time)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Immaterial (because He transcends space)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Personal (the impersonal can’t create personality)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Necessary (as everything else depends on Him)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Diverse yet has unity (as all multiplicity implies a prior singularity)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Intelligent (supremely, to create everything)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Purposeful (as He deliberately created everything)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Moral (no moral law can exist without a lawgiver)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘• Caring (or no moral laws would have been given)’
    Please prove this.

    ‘I know I don’t have all the answers to all the questions you and everyone else has. I have done my best in giving you evidences, regardless of your acceptance.’

    With all due respect, but you hardly ever give any evidences. You claim repeatedly what you believe, but not why you believe and how you arrived at that believe.

    Again:

    ‘I searched, and found Jesus Christ to be the True foundation of Truth.’

    This is not evidence, just statement of what you believe.

    ‘It’s based on Biblical Truth, which is the Ultimate Truth.’

    This is not evidence, just statement of what you believe.

    ‘It’s based on evidence, found in and throughout the known universe.’

    What evidence?

    ‘Once again, I am not God, but aim to be like His Son, Jesus.’

    Please prove that Jesus is his son. Please also prove that the portrayal of Jesus in the bible correctly corresponds with the actual, historical Jesus that once lived.

    ‘The following may be why you don’t accept Truth, that is, Jesus Christ: …’

    Please prove the truth of all the scripture that you provided. The fact that it can be found in the bible is not evidence of it being true.

    ‘He and only He can and will save you.’

    Please prove this.

    ‘When will you die?’

    When I set foot in an airplane built by a creationist.

    ‘God knows [when you die]’

    Please prove this.

    ‘Judgment Day is coming.’

    Please prove this.

    ‘Stop running from God.’

    Allah? Vishnu? Odin? Ahura Mazda? Boreas? Njord? Stribog? Amun? Pazuzu? Aphrodite? Bergelmir? Chalchiuhtlicue? El? Zeus? Horus? Jupiter? Janus?

    ‘Be ready in Christ Jesus for His coming.’

    Like it is written in God’s holy book, you mean?:

    ‘And when the son of Mary was presented as an example, immediately your people laughed aloud. And they said, “Are our gods better, or is he?” They did not present the comparison except for [mere] argument. But, [in fact], they are a people prone to dispute. Jesus was not but a servant upon whom We bestowed favor, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel. And if We willed, We could have made [instead] of you angels succeeding [one another] on the earth. And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path. (Quran, 43: 57-61)’

    Further reading: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/

    All my best,

  40. markHisWay says:

    My proof, my evidence, my Truth, is founded in scripture, which is my starting point: God’s Word.

    ‘Mankind is set apart from all other creation.’ Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

    ‘The Lord works in mysterious ways.’Isaiah 45:15 Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.

    ‘Luke 12:7 (NKJV) 7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.’

    we have a soul. Hebrews 4:12 (ESV)
    12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

    animals don’t have a soul. – There is no mention of animals having souls in scripture. However, 2 Kings 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “O Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the Lord opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

    “‘Looking in the mirror, you are ‘made in the image of God.’”Genesis 1:26

    ‘It’s based on evidence, found in and throughout the known universe.’ Romans 1:20 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    ‘It’s based on Biblical Truth, which is the Ultimate Truth 2 Timothy 3:16–17 (ESV)
    16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    ‘I searched, and found Jesus Christ to be the True foundation of Truth.’
    John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    The site, and where the Jews got it wrong, stating from this site:
    -The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do—destroy evil and all their enemies and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world.

    -the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.

    -The Jews believed that the Messiah, the prophet which Moses spoke about, would come and deliver them from Roman bondage and set up a kingdom where they would be the rulers.

    -when He allowed Himself to be arrested, tried, and crucified on a cursed cross, the people stopped believing that He was the promised prophet. They rejected their Messiah (Matthew 27:22).

    -Two thousand years after He came to the nation of Israel as their Messiah, Christ is still (for the most part) rejected by the Jews.

    -Jews ultimately believe that they are being held responsible for the death of Jesus Christ and are being persecuted for that reason. They, therefore, reject Him today.
    -The good news is that many Jews are turning to Christ today. The God of Israel has always been faithful to keep a “remnant” of believing Jews to Himself. In the United States alone, some estimates say that there are over 100,000 Jewish believers in Jesus, and the numbers are growing all the time.

    “Besides: the proof is in the pudding. Creationism never brought us functional medicine, or working computers, or electricity, or new sources of energy, or a space program, or the internet. Why? Because reality doesn’t bent to what creationists wish to be real. I truly would never set foot in an airplane built by a creationist…”

    TABLE I
    SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES ESTABLISHED
    BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS

    DISCIPLINE SCIENTIST
    ANTISEPTIC SURGERY JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)
    BACTERIOLOGY LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
    CALCULUS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
    CELESTIAL MECHANICS JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
    CHEMISTRY ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
    COMPARATIVE ANATOMY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)
    COMPUTER SCIENCE CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
    DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
    DYNAMICS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
    ELECTRONICS JOHN AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
    ELECTRODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
    ELECTRO-MAGNETICS MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
    ENERGETICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
    ENTOMOLOGY OF LIVING INSECTS HENRI FABRE (1823-1915)
    FIELD THEORY MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
    FLUID MECHANICS GEORGE STOKES (1819-1903)
    GALACTIC ASTRONOMY WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
    GAS DYNAMICS ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
    GENETICS GREGOR MENDEL (1822-1884)
    GLACIAL GEOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
    GYNECOLOGY JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
    HYDRAULICS LEONARDO DA VINCI (1452-1519)
    HYDROGRAPHY MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
    HYDROSTATICS BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
    ICHTHYOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
    ISOTOPIC CHEMISTRY WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
    MODEL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
    NATURAL HISTORY JOHN RAY (1627-1705)
    NON-EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY BERNHARD RIEMANN (1826- 1866)
    OCEANOGRAPHY MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
    OPTICAL MINERALOGY DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
    PALEONTOLOGY JOHN WOODWARD (1665-1728)
    PATHOLOGY RUDOLPH VIRCHOW (1821-1902)
    PHYSICAL ASTRONOMY JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
    REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS JAMES JOULE (1818-1889)
    STATISTICAL THERMODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
    STRATIGRAPHY NICHOLAS STENO (1631-1686)
    SYSTEMATIC BIOLOGY CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
    THERMODYNAMICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
    THERMOKINETICS HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
    VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)

    TABLE II
    NOTABLE INVENTIONS, DISCOVERIES
    OR DEVELOPMENTS BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS

    CONTRIBUTION SCIENTIST
    ABSOLUTE TEMPERATURE SCALE LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
    ACTUARIAL TABLES CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
    BAROMETER BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
    BIOGENESIS LAW LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
    CALCULATING MACHINE CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
    CHLOROFORM JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
    CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
    DOUBLE STARS WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
    ELECTRIC GENERATOR MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
    ELECTRIC MOTOR JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
    EPHEMERIS TABLES JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
    FERMENTATION CONTROL LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
    GALVANOMETER JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
    GLOBAL STAR CATALOG JOHN HERSCHEL (1792-1871)
    INERT GASES WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
    KALEIDOSCOPE DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
    LAW OF GRAVITY ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
    MINE SAFETY LAMP HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
    PASTEURIZATION LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
    REFLECTING TELESCOPE ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
    SCIENTIFIC METHOD FRANCIS BACON (1561-1626)
    SELF-INDUCTION JOSEPH HENRY (1797-1878)
    TELEGRAPH SAMUEL F.B. MORSE (1791-1872)
    THERMIONIC VALVE AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
    TRANS-ATLANTIC CABLE LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
    VACCINATION & IMMUNIZATION LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)

    ‘To illustrate the caliber and significance of these great scientists of the past, Tables I and II have been prepared. These tabulations are not complete lists, of course, but at least are representative and they do point up the absurdity of modern assertions that no true scientist can be a creationist and Bible-believing Christian.’
    http://www.icr.org/article/bible-believing-scientists-past/

    All attributes you mention of, come from an all-knowing, all-powerful God, Creator of the minds that ‘brought us’ functional medicine, working computers, electricity, new sources of energy, space programs, the internet, airplanes, automobiles, rockets, sneakers, toothbrushes, skyscrapers, bridges, microchips, cameras, ball point pens, spectacles, luminaires, satellites, robots, space stations, crayons, lighters, bottles, scissors, micrometers, and so forth, which, I will add, none of these started from nothing. The materials were already available. Just a few tweaks here and there to mix, put together, etc. And don’t forget the things we take for granted, like the mountains, streams, rivers, planets, galaxies, stars and solar systems, etc.

    Jeremiah 32:17
    ‘Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm!

    “ I truly would never set foot in an airplane built by a creationist…”
    …just thought you should know:
    Christian program at Bolivar Airport trains pilots, airplane mechanics
    September 25, 2013|by Steve Grant, KY3 News | sgrant@ky3.com
    BOLIVAR, Mo. — General aviation is an important part of this Polk County city. Its airport has been revamped and revived thanks to a special program that reflects the Ozarks’ deep commitment to helping others.

    Even in the post-modern world, preaching pilots in small planes still navigate their ways to the most primitive places. Kerrick Tweedy carries on the tradition and founded Service Oriented Aviation Readiness, or SOAR, after he got the flying bug 10 years ago.

    “Across the nation and around the world, there’s a mission organization providing everything from humanitarian aid to medical evacuations to spreading the gospel,” said Tweedy.

    Nowadays, it’s very expensive to train student pilots who also need to know how to keep their aircraft airworthy in the most remote locations. To do that, SOAR hires student pilots to keep Bolivar Airport running and to get them to their ultimate destination.

    Isaiah 55:11New King James Version (NKJV)
    So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

    Blessings

  41. Arista says:

    MarkHisway,

    Please prove that the bible is God’s word. Saying that it is your ‘proof, evidence and truth’ doesn’t magically make it actual proof, evidence and truth. Repeating scripture over and over again doesn’t magically make it true either. Using a book as its own evidence is circular reasoning. The Qur’an claims to be its own proof as well. By your own logic, you have to accept that. If you don’t, why make an exception for the Qur’an (and many other supposedly divinely inspired writings) but not for your own book?

    Evidence is anything presented in support of an assertion. Your assertion is the bible. Now what can you present IN SUPPORT of it? You can’t present the bible in support of the bible. Because then you can present the Qur’an in support of the Qur’an as well. And what to think of the one true religion that is the Napkin Religion? (https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6236/6284218693_5ca86a9f6b.jpg)

    Also: there has to exist a logical connection between your assertion and your support of the assertion.

    For example: if I’m thirsty, it is logical that I take a drink. Why? We know the body consists for a large part of water. We also know that the body uses part of this water to get rid of excrements (urine and faces). We also know that the body uses part of this water for regulation of our body temperature via the excretion of sweat. A logical result is that the amount of water in our body decreases. This makes us feel thirsty. Hence the – logical – intake of liquids to replenish the water levels in our body.

    Now If I’m thirsty and I respond to that with getting a pair of scissors and starting to cut my shoelaces in one inch bits, then that is not logical. Because: where is the connection between the two?

    Therefore, stating the fact that ‘we exist’ as ‘proof that the bible is correct’, doesn’t fly. First you have to explain the valid logical connection. I’ve heard many Christian say that trees prove god. But I’ve yet to hear a valid logical argument that gets us from the existence of a tree to the evidence and proof that a god exists, that is a trinity, and a he, who crucified his only son, who listens to prayer, and who edited the bible through spiritual guidance.

    In regard to that very bible: bookstores are filled with books. Humans are known to write books. Humans are also known to write books that claim to be the truth and that have other humans convinced it comes from and represents god. Do you agree that the book of Hinduism is invented by humans? Do you agree the Qur’an is the work of men? Yet, many millions absolutely believe these books to be true. Some are even willing to kill for it. So if people are able to write books that can convince others about the truth to such a degree, how big the chance that your book came into existence the exact same way? Why would your book be the exception? What is your valid logical argument?

    ‘The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do—destroy evil and all their enemies and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world.’

    Not ‘in their eyes’, but according to their scripture; the very words of Yahweh himself. Do you dare deny those?

    ‘The Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.’

    Read up on ancient Hebrew and see for yourself what it actually says. 500 Questions has an interesting piece on this too.

    ‘The Jews believed that the Messiah, the prophet which Moses spoke about, would come and deliver them from Roman bondage and set up a kingdom where they would be the rulers.’
    ‘Not what they ‘believed’, but simply what their scripture says; the very words of Yahweh himself. Do you dare deny those? Is the Torah manmade?

    ‘When He allowed Himself to be arrested, tried, and crucified on a cursed cross, the people stopped believing that He was the promised prophet. They rejected their Messiah (Matthew 27:22).’

    In order to ‘stop believing’ one has to ‘believe’ first. Please prove that ‘the people’ (= the Jews) did believe Jesus to be the messiah until he got crucified. Also, their scripture simply doesn’t state that their messiah will get sacrificed. If you claim that the bible doesn’t state that animals have a soul, and that therefore they don’t have a soul. Then logic forces that if the Torah doesn’t state that the messiah gets crucified, he therefore doesn’t get crucified (and that anyone who does get crucified isn’t the messiah by default). Double standards can’t represent truth, because they logically create two ‘truths’.

    ‘Two thousand years after He came to the nation of Israel as their Messiah, Christ is still (for the most part) rejected by the Jews.’

    Because Christ clearly didn’t fulfill the prophecies, as stated in scripture. For instance: the messiah would gather all the Jews from around the world back to Israel. Did this happen? Are there no more Jews in New York, for instance? If there are, then the messiah simply did not fulfill all the prophecies. There is really no way around it. You either do something or you don’t. Also: Jesus had to come from the bloodline of David through one of David’s sons, or their sons, or their sons, or theirs, or theirs, etc. Did Jesus, or did he not? There is really only one answer. You really think you know better than the very words of Yahweh himself? Are you sure you want to deny those?

    ‘The good news is that many Jews are turning to Christ today.’

    Define ‘many’ and provide proof of this turnover.

    ‘SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES ESTABLISHED BY CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS’

    Nope. Being Christian – what these scientists were – does not automatically imply being creationist. This is revisionist history. Try harder.

    ‘All attributes you mention of, come from an all-knowing, all-powerful God, Creator of the minds that ‘brought us’ functional medicine, working computers, electricity, new sources of energy, space programs, the internet, airplanes, automobiles, rockets, sneakers, toothbrushes, skyscrapers, bridges, microchips, cameras, ball point pens, spectacles, luminaires, satellites, robots, space stations, crayons, lighters, bottles, scissors, micrometers, and so forth…’

    Please prove this.

    ‘…which, I will add, none of these started from nothing.’

    Absolutely! We agree! Why? Because people have never experienced ‘nothing’. First we need to find ‘nothing’, so we can study ‘nothing’s characteristics, its behavior and how it reacts under certain conditions. Only this way can we research and prove if ‘something’ can or can’t come from ‘nothing’. As of now, we have never experienced ‘nothing’ and don’t even know if ‘nothing’ exists or ever did exist. What we do know is that ‘something’ exists. So the default and most logical position to take is to assume that ‘something’ has always existed (as, again, there is no proof there ever was ‘nothing’ and, even if there ever was ‘nothing’ that it gave birth to ‘something’). Obviously, with ‘something’ always having been in existence, we never needed a god to create it in the first place.

    ‘And don’t forget the things we take for granted, like the mountains, streams, rivers, planets, galaxies, stars and solar systems, etc.’

    Please prove these were created by god.

    ‘Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm!

    Please prove this

    ‘Christian program at Bolivar Airport trains pilots, airplane mechanics’

    Again, being Christian does not by default a creationist make. Besides, pilots and mechanic’s are not the builders (= inventors) of the airplane. There are Muslims pilots and mechanics too. Did they invent the airplane too, then? According to your logic, they have to.

    ‘So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.’

    Please prove this.

    Seriously, MarkHisway: you continue to provide scripture upon scripture upon scripture, but it will not get you anywhere. You lay claim upon claim upon claim, without backing any of it up. You can’t use scripture as its own proof, because then logic forces that we have to take every written word that exclaims itself true (simply because it has been written) as true – like the Qur’an. If you are willing to make an exception for one book only, you have to provide logic and evidence to explain why you do so. You can’t randomly pick and choose.

    Also, whenever I ask you to back something up, you simply deny this and spew more scripture.

    So let’s repeat myself like scripture:

    ‘He (God) is:
    • Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known)’

    Please prove that he created all that is known.

    ‘• Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Timeless and changeless (He created time)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Immaterial (because He transcends space)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Personal (the impersonal can’t create personality)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Necessary (as everything else depends on Him)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Diverse yet has unity (as all multiplicity implies a prior singularity)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Intelligent (supremely, to create everything)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Purposeful (as He deliberately created everything)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Moral (no moral law can exist without a lawgiver)’

    Please prove this.

    ‘• Caring (or no moral laws would have been given)’

    Please prove this.

    And – again, again, again… – scripture is not proof of what is written in scripture. You can’t prove the existence of Luke Skywalker by believing what Han Solo has to say about him.

    Now, what do you got?

    All my best,

    • BIGFOOT says:

      “See, my servant will prosper, he shall be lifted up, exulted, rise to great heights. As the crowds were appalled on seeing Him-so disfigured did He look, that he seemed no longer human- so will the crowd be astonished at him, and kings stand speechless before Him, for they shall see something never heard before. ‘Who has given credence to what we have heard and who has seen in it a revelation of Yahweh arm? Like a sapling, he grew up before him, like a root, in an arid ground. He has not form or charm to attract us, no beauty to win our hearts; he was despised, the lowest of men, a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering, one from whom as it were, we averted our gaze, for whom we had no regard. Yet, ours were the sufferings he was bearing, ours the sorrows he was carrying, while we thought of him as someone being punished and stuck with affliction by God; whereas he was being wounded for our rebellions, crushed because of our guilt; the punishment reconciling us fell on him, and we have been healed by his bruises . We had all gone astray like sheep, each taking his own way, and Yahweh brought the acts of rebellion of all of us to bear on him. Ill-treated and afflicted, he never opened his mouth, like a lamb led to the slaughter-house like a sheep dumb before its shearers, he never opened his mouth. Forcibly after sentence, he was taken. Which of his contemporaries was concerned at his having been cut off from the land of the living, at having been stuck dead for his people’s rebellion? He was given a grave with the wicked, and a tomb, with the rich, although he had done no violence, had spoken no deceit. Its was Yahweh’s good pleasure to crush him with pain, as he gives his life as a sin offering, he will see his offspring, and prolong his life and through him, Yahweh’s good pleasure will be done. After the ordeal, he has endured, he will see the light and be content. By his knowledge, the upright one will justify many, by taking their guilt on himself. Hence I shall give him a potion with many, and he will share he booty with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death, for being counted, as one of the rebellious, whereas he was bearing the sin, for many and interceding for the rebellious.” Isaiah 53:1-12

  42. markHisway says:

    ‘Believing in stuff like this will only get you into trouble.’
    .
    .
    Shocked, that Q500 allowed this post, as full of derogatoriness as it is.
    .
    .
    .
    Sticks and stones? How about ‘fire and brimstone’?
    .
    .
    .
    Repent (turn from your wicked ways) and put your trust in Jesus Christ, Who shed His blood on a cross for YOU, died, was buried in a tomb, and rose up on the third day. Jesus Christ and only He has the power to save you. How much of a non-believer will you be, when you are before him, naked and to be judged, awaiting His words, on bended knee, proclaiming Jesus Christ is Lord? What do you think, will He grant you eternal life in heaven, or cast you into the lake of fire for eternity, where there will be weeping, whaling, and gnashing of teeth, in the abyss, separated from the very one who gave you life to begin with? Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.

    If you think you are in hell here on earth, you are in for a rude awakening. God loves you, but His anger burns against the unjust. If you repent and put your faith in Him, He will give you the gift of the Holy Spirit. Believe not in Him, and don’t trust in His Son Jesus Christ, well, you will have wished you had.

    Instead of satisfying your need for answers about ‘free will’, maybe you should be asking questions like,”Will God save someone as wretched as me, a sinner?” Or like, “What must I do to be saved from God’s wrath?” I know I did, and He answered them in the book called The Holy Bible. Maybe if you read it more often, these answers you have about free will would be revealed to you. God does that. Open your eyes to The Truth, God’s Word, Who is Jesus Christ. Whether you believe it or not, all of us will be held accountable one day for all we have or haven’t done, even our thought life. Be aware: the end is near. When and where will your end be? God is loving, and He is also just.

    Someone posed a comment to me recently. They said, “I believe it was far easier for God to have created all the cosmos, than it is for Him to change a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.”

    Blessings

    • Just deleted his post. Turns out it was someone who was already blacklisted, and was using a new name. Quite the nut-job. I can leave your response or delete it, just let me know. 🙂

    • rautakyy says:

      @MarkHisway. Do you know what the fear fallacy is? Your entire comment is consisted of appealing to it. The Bible does not turn out to be true, nor should it be considered such, because it contains threats of physical and emotional violence to people who do not believe it. On the contrary, this puts it into a very suspicious light. Correct?

      I hope you have not built your beliefs and created your own identity on an obvious logical fallacy, as you are asking Arista to do. Have you?

      • markHisway says:

        “Do you know what the fear fallacy is? “ – rautakky

        “An appeal to fear (also called argumentum ad metum or argumentum in terrorem) is a fallacy in which a person attempts to create support for an idea by using deception and propaganda in attempts to increase fear and prejudice toward a competitor. The appeal to fear is common in marketing and politics.” – Wikipedia

        “Fear – a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.” – Dictionary.com

        “In the Bible, the word translated “fear” can mean several things. It can refer to the terror one feels in a frightening situation (Deuteronomy 2:25). It can mean “respect” in the way a servant fears his master and serves him faithfully (Joshua 24:14). Fear can also denote the reverence or awe a person feels in the presence of greatness (Isaiah 6:5). The fear of the Lord is a combination of all of these.”

        “Without the fear of the Lord, we make final decisions based on our faulty human understanding (Proverbs 3:5–6). When we incorporate the fear of the Lord into every moment of our lives, we make decisions based upon His approval. We live with the knowledge that the Creator of the universe is intimately involved in our every move. He sees, knows, and evaluates all our choices, and we will answer to Him (Psalm 139:1–4).”
        http://www.gotquestions.org

        “Fallacy – a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:” – Dictionary.com

        I am not sure if these definitions are what you are defining as “the fear fallacy” or not. Based on my understanding of these words, it is centered around lies, or pretenses.

        God cannot lie. He says it in Hebrews 6:17-18 “17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of His purpose, He guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.”

        To say what I have quoted from scripture is a fallacy, or lie, than this is calling God a liar, and His Holy Bible lies. I repeat from what I have learned from His Word, which is Truth, founded in Jesus Christ, Who is Truth.

        ————————————————————————————–

        “Your entire comment is consisted of appealing to it. “ – rautakyy

        If this was in reference to my commenting to the individual who was blacklisted by 500Q, my comment was to rebuke the name calling they were resorting to, showing that individual their folly.
        In the same essence, everyone is going to be held accountable for the things they say, do, think, on the day of judgment.

        “For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.” 12 Therefore, each of us will give an account of himself to God. “ – Romans 14:10-12

        ————————————————————————————–
        “The Bible does not turn out to be true, nor should it be considered such, because it contains threats of physical and emotional violence to people who do not believe it. “ – rautakyy

        2 Peter 3:9 states: “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

        And again, as stated earlier, “God cannot lie. He says it in Hebrews 6:17-18 “17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of His purpose, He guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.”

        In Isaiah 55:11 God says, “My word which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.”

        ———————————————————————————————–

        “On the contrary, this puts it into a very suspicious light. Correct?” – rautakyy

        Suspicious? In what sense, that you may find out God’s Word, the Holy Bible, is truth? Yes, it is suspect of truth, for it is truth. People ridicule, mock and slander God’s Word and His Name every day. These actions don’t discredit His Word or Him. It does, however, kindle His anger.

        “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” – Hebrews 13:8

        ——————————————————————————————————-
        “I hope you have not built your beliefs and created your own identity on an obvious logical fallacy, as you are asking Arista to do. Have you?” – rautakyy

        When you say “…hope…”, you should be putting the effort of hoping towards a more worthy cause, towards Christ Jesus, the Founder of hope. According to Dictionary.com, hope is defined as “to believe, desire, or trust”. Believe, desire and trust in the One who can save you from your disbelief, Who is Jesus Christ.

        The belief wasn’t built by me. I accept His Word as Truth, as it is acclaimed to be.
        I haven’t created anything that wasn’t already there. God is Creator, we are the created. He instills in us abilities to reason, think, choose, obey, disobey, listen, see, etc.

        You say, “…obvious logical fallacy…”. To what are you pertaining? My words, or scripture? I hope you listen to and heed the Words of the Lord, and not my own. However, if what I write is from scripture, God’s Word, this isn’t fallacy. Again, God has given us the ability to choose our path, to think, reason, debate, etc. Drop your pride, and acknowledge Him and His Word. He has given you so much already.

        Here’s a ‘thought’: Can you weigh a thought? can you feel a thought? Can you touch a thought? Can you smell a thought? How would you ever know a thought exists? Who’s to say it is a thought? How do you know they are right? It’s just a thought. Think about it.

        “The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”” – Psalm 14:1.

        I know I have had my foolish moments in life. The Lord knows I have had my share. But I respect revere and acknowledge His Word as Truth, with fear that is deserved of One much greater than I.

        Pride in one’s self is mainly the reason people don’t want to believe in God; that and hanging on to one’s sinful ways, not wanting to change to serve the One who graciously gives them their every breath. Am I wrong?

        Perfection and balance in ourselves and in nature, His creation.
        Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”
        Psalm 19:1 “The heavens declare the glory of God;
        And the firmament shows His handiwork.”

        Life doesn’t come from non-life.
        Things made demand a Maker.
        What is built demands a Builder.
        Forms of art demand an Artist.
        Created things demand a Creator.
        Laws laid down demand a Lawgiver.
        Salvation demands a Savior.
        His Name is Jesus Christ.

        “Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
        In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.” – Proverbs 3:5&6

        Blessings

  43. Iainehskhem says:

    What will happen those people who do not heard gospel of jesus but now was died?(ancestor)

  44. markHisway says:

    Iainehskhem,
    This link may answer your question:
    http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

    and a follow-up link:
    http://www.gotquestions.org/how-can-I-be-saved.html

    Many will hear, few will listen, and even less will believe and follow Him. It’s our choice.

    Blessings.

  45. Kent_Ignore says:

    I learned a lot in this blog, in regards of the topic i would like to share of what I’ve heard from someone. “Ignorance of the law is not an excuse”. I’m a Christian and I admit i’m not smart as others here and English is not my 1st language.

    I do believe in God, he is a loving, caring and a Just God, it means if you sin you must be punished if He does’t He is not just then.
    Even in the court of man if you murdered, raped someone you will go behind bars, you can appeal to the judge you don’t know its a crime, even if its true you are govern by the law of that land and the verdict is imprisonment.

    But out of his love for us, He gave his only begotten son and took all our punishments died for our sins, that’s is if you repent, believe in him, follow him and put your trust in him you will be pardoned from your sin.
    For those who doesn’t know God god will be judge according to what they said and done,

    Let me share with you a Answer of Elise in Yahoo the question is God is tyrant?
    Elise answered 6 years ago

    Well, here’s the deal: Our view of “tyrant” is worldly. Honestly. Let’s say there’s no God and I want to build a camp and torture people. Tell me what makes it inherently wrong? Nothing. Let’s say I’m a potter and I form different pieces, then decide to destroy some of them. Is there a problem? There is no absolute morality outside of God. Therefore, by definition, anything God decides to do is right. Any concepts we have of good or evil are irrelevant if we were created, because those concepts rest with the Creator, and our understanding of it is skewed because we are evil, whether or not you believe it. You’re angry at the idea of God having ultimate control because you have a Will to Power. It has nothing to do with morality; if there is no God, there is no morality, and if there is a God, then He sets the rules.

    WARNING!!! The sings are all around us.
    The Lord Yehsua(Jesus) will comeback soon, seek him before time runs out.

  46. BIGFOOT says:

    Who are you to question the justice of God………..anyway? Why does it interest you which tests are to be passed and which tests are easy?

    Think of it this way

    Moses was a murderer, and a stammerer Yet God chose him to lead His people out of Egypt.
    Elijah killed 600 (Yes, six hundred men) Yeah they were idolatrous. but just imagine today a person killing six hundred. And what happened to Him? A chariot of fire took him directly to heaven. He never died.

    Elisha coming back from seeing him of, curses 40 small boys and they are devoured by desert lions.
    Think of David, and adulterer, a murderer, and a schemer. Yet, we are told he was loved by God.

    Think of Peter and how he denounced Jesus. It was not an act very far from what Judas did. Okay you will say, that he was just scared. But after Jesus died, what did he tell the disciples? “Guys, lets go back to fishing” As if all those three years were just a sad interruption.

    We can even point to Jesus Himself!

    Jesus knew, that he was the Son of God. God confirmed this to him many times. Even transfiguring Him. And yet, he prayed not to die. He was so distraught that he prayed that the cup be taken away from Him.

    So, the point is, Men are weak. That,s for sure. They are evil. Yeah. But God does not deal with them the same way, because they do not relate to him the same way.

    “The Jesus look him up and said, Simon; I have something to say to you.” ‘Speak Master’ was the reply, ‘There was once a creditor who had two men in his debt; one owed him five hundred denarii’s, the other fifty. They were unable to pay, so he pardoned them both. Which of them will love him most?’ “The one who was pardoned more I suppose” answered Simon. Jesus said, ‘You are right’ Luke 7: 36-43

    There is One Law and that’s the Law of Love.

    There is one question that awaits you before God: “How much did you love?”

  47. I applaud your desire to look at the bible from an objectionable view and I don’t blame anyone from questioning biblical ideas especially when translation does no justice or there simply is a misunderstanding. But as I have come to understand there is a major difference between questioning God and His word to disprove it and questioning God and His word to understand the truth. I am not some great theologian, but a man who questions God now to understand better.

    John 15:22 can seem like Jesus is saying that His presence causes people to sin where He is actually saying something different. It is not a stand alone comment He is making but remains part of a greater statement. The world will persecute them simply because of Jesus, but the seeds are already in their heart and Jesus presence draws it out because they refuse to be convicted by the Law of Moses.

    Romans 4:15 is not negating the Law saying someone has no quilt; absolute. But is a general comment made by Jesus relating that back in biblical times the Law of Moses generally was only valid amongst the Jews and Gentiles were not obligated to keep it but to be convicted by the Commandants of God if heard. Now of course the gospel was still spreading and so God did write the Law of Liberty on man’s heart as Paul relates and is meant to be convicted by his conscious. Does that mean there are different levels and standards of rule humanity is held to in terms of toughness. No, Why? Because the Law that Jews were held accountable for was not for salvation but for accountability as the gentile’s heart was of the same.

    Ignorance in not hearing does not prevent wrath, because outside of not hearing, a man’s conviction is from their conscience and God desires for them to remain committed to that source. For example, even though Islam does not teach Jesus salvation and even if never hearing the gospel message, they are still obligated to adhere to their conscious in terms of morality. Why? Although it does not produce salvation it does produce conviction and conviction leads one to seek God for forgives and a desire for truth. Some have never even heard who Jesus was and yet God knows all thoughts and has appeared to people throughout the world. Why? Because God knows who are His. He knows that someone will never accept the truth regardless. Remember God knows the beginning throughout the end of everything.

    The verses from Romans 2:12 & 2 Thess. 1:8-9 and then the thought goes that God is unfair because people have not heard the gospel. I would have felt the same way but recently as God revealed more things to me I began to understand things even more.

    There really is no difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of Liberty James 1:25. Basically it means that the Law of Moses that the Jews were given and the Law written upon man’s heart’s across culture and time, in essence, is the same. Why? Because the Law was never meant for the gentile to adhere. The Law bearers, Israelites, were called to be the message bearers to the world and did not accomplish this role; ultimately. But God never stopped there because He brought conviction all over the world through messengers and by intercession of His Spirit. Can a man be guilty who had not heard the message. Yes. Why? Because every man has basic codes of morality written within their spirit that God placed. Does it mean everyone deals with different levels of rules. No. Why? Because the Law is of liberty meant to convict and reprove and is not a tool that makes someone clean.

    The verses dealing with judgment would be better understood from a different view. Judgment is not JUST Sodom and Gomorrah. If it was then 1 Peter 4:17 would be saying that the church was going to be destroyed! Judgment, if not convicted by, will end in spiritual destruction and so at physical death leads to eternal destruction. Judgment begins as a revelation of immorality through calamity, tribulation, and hardship. 1. For a believer its refinement but 2. for a non-believer its for drawing attention to God. God never judges anyone without giving a way out!

    John 3:16-21 states that God’s judgment begins with a revelation of one’s immorality and the Light of Christ reveals that darkness; either by the gospel message or through the written code on a man’s spirit. We are obligated to hear that message and desire to call out to God, but many would rather not because man does not want his dark nature to be revealed; just another man’s dark nature.

    Judgment begins by allowing hardship and obviously that comes at all different levels of intensity which is depicted in those verses. The more the immorality the more intense the hardship. Someone, maybe, listens to their conscious (God’s written code of conduct) and fells like ending someones life but thinks twice about it and rationalizes that it is not a good thing to do. But then they are faced with the choice of adultery and decide to cheat on their spouse as where someone commits murder and adultery; hence a more challenging judgment (while living).

    “But how can a man be guilty if he’s never heard the gospel?” Because many people including a portion of Christian’s misunderstand what guilt is. Your not guilty because God told you that you are guilty. We are guilty because we reject God! What is meant by that. If I am held in a basement my whole life and never knew that it is against the law of America to end someones life and then get freed from that basement and go outside in a fit of rage and end someones life – does that make me free from guilt? Guilt is outside of hearing the law because of my actions; God is the source of revelation.

    Maybe in some other country its is okay to end someones life. But does it still mean that it is morally wrong? Yes. Why, if I never heard the law? Because I acted in line with my own desire rather then God’s will for my life. Sin is not sin because God said its sin, but because God tells us sin is self seeking and self producing outside of Him.

    Problem #1: There are not different standards, but different circumstances. Saying God does not allow any sin misses the point. God does not sin we do, but we don’t accept that and reject Him and so keep on sinning. Sin is not a barometer of holiness but of self governing, even though misunderstanding Christians would say otherwise. Why? Because any form of holiness someone lives by is not of their doing but God’s. No one cannot sin outside of God and no one cannot live holy outside of God; that is the point. The sin chart is to show you the mirror of how unclean we are and that we need Jesus cleaning.

    Problem #2: God does not need to write the whole law on our hearts because the law of moses is meant for the Israelite to see, be cleaned, and share message. The law written is meant to do the same minus the need to adhere like the Law of Moses and the Israelites. Ex: Jonah was not asked by God to go and tell Nineveh that they need to follow the written Law of Moses, but to inform them of their quilt because they are not listening to God’s spiritual intervention.

    Problem #3: There is no list of natural laws written on your heart (conscious) for you to be aware of otherwise it would be the Law of Moses. The written law on your heart or brought to you by way of the Holy Spirit is what you know, not what you don’t know, otherwise how are you guilty? If you know that lying is wrong then that written law is your conviction. What if we don’t listen to it or are ignorant of it? That is the point! If you think it is not wrong to lie to someone and feel nothing about it, but are pissed when someone lies to you then there is the contradiction; we are being gods unto ourselves. We cannot feel angered by someone sinning against us while feeling a lack of obligation in the same action committed by ourselves.

    The natural law is the Ten Commandments and though we may not know all the commandents of which everything is derived from outside of the statues of sacrifice and so on. If we don’t know much of anything, even though we are obligated to ask and call out to God because He left His signature on humanity, then whatever we do know are we obligated to listen? Yes. Even if you only knew that it is lying then be convicted on lying. God will reveal more of Himself at the right time. Even if it was one thing then let that one thing be your law! In time God will open that window because we are listening. When we don’t care and are not listening then God will move eventually to get our attention.

    Do we really think that God is a dictator who said don’t do this or else? The law has a purpose like the speed limit has a purpose. If you break the speed limit you can be fined because the more we speed the more the chance of hurting someone in a crash and so the more we sin the more we hurt us or someone else. People all over the world throughout time, even if never hearing about God’s law, know at least one thing is wrong!

    If you truly want to know the truth of God and be cleaned then ask Him and He will provide otherwise God knows who is being facetious or flippant!

    Praise God for His wisdom and revelation..

  48. Anonymous says:

    Proverbs 26:12 – Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him!

    • Agreed. We should all be humble, believers and non-believers alike. But we also shouldn’t foolishly assume that a book is true without questioning its claims. No one should be exempt from having to meet the burden of proof.

  49. Pam says:

    If the person lived only doing good(or not), its their own fault to judge “they only need to be good” and doesnt bother to really seek the true God. Those who seek humbly His Face and love Him, He will let in into His Kingdom of Heaven. But those who dont know The owner of The Kingdom why would they going to even be there? So seek God.

    God created us for Himself. His purpose in our life would only work if we open our heart to Him. If we harden our heart, how could He construct a plan for your life? He wants you to truly asking Him be your friend!! We need to humble ourselves and not relying by our own understanding(His Spirit will teach you). Me and other Christian surely tried this already and its proven. Try it for yourself, it wouldnt hurt to save your own soul & safe a place in heaven for your sake!

    Therefore , read bible first before judging anything. These unnecessay questions couldve been explained if you read bible. Its all in there. You need to pray to God to let you understand Bible and His Spirit will let you understand only if you come to Him humbly (He’ll know anyways cos He knows your heart and mind sayin) this applies to every human cos God created human equal spiritually.

  50. ... says:

    The way I see it the Bible is written by humans, humanity is a sinner. Why do we need all these middlemen? Pray/talk to god in the morning and start a new day. No cheating, no lies, no hurting and obviously no murder the basics my parents raised me with.
    yet its always nice to sit down and read the bible, I just don’t agree on a few things but it still has good information.

  51. Ann says:

    Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Consider the life of Abraham, he was said to be a friend of God. What is a true friend, someone you trust and confide, you tell your wishes, thoughts, dreams, deep secrets, you share your life with each other and are honest and open. Abraham knee Jesus for he said God would provide the sacrifice. He and all the old testament saints knew about Jesus because they had a relationship with God and knew him. God shared who he was his hopes his wishes his dreams his desires and his plan for mankind.

    Now the only reason someone does not believe is because they do not seek, they love their sin and are not open and honest with God about yheir sin and who he is. If you seek him you will find him and he will make sure you know the truth of who he is.

    I read once of a tribe that had never been evangelized. when a missionary had gone to evangelize they already knew who he was. For you see they sought and God revealed himself to them when there was no one he could send.

    If God could do it himself why does he send us. So we can share in the joy of his work by seeing others forgiven and set free in Christ. Learning to love others and sacrifice our lives not just by what we say but how we act so others can experience the awesomeness of God that we have experienced. God is truly fair and awesome to let us partake in hiz plan.

    Consider many muslims who are receiving dreams sbout Jesus.

    God is slways calling and seeking but it is mankind who refuses to listen. If we are honest we will listen and talk to him about our sin and struggles and he will answer and set us free.

  52. Randall Stevenson says:

    I think Billy Graham gave a good answer to this in a 1997 interview with Robert Schuler:

    “I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ. … He is calling people out of the world for his name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven.”

    The above has been recently reflected in statements by Pope Francis, which included atheists. The Catholic Church teaches that those who have not accepted Christ through no fault of their own will be judged according to their deeds.

  53. ds says:

    This was the straw that broke my back and ended my faith permanently. After growing up the son of an Assembly of God evangelist and pastor, and attending bible college, I sat in a church one Sunday evening in my early twenties and listened as another pastor preached that we needed to evangelize those who had not heard because they would be cast into eternal fire and pain. I realized in that instant that the entire fundamentalist belief system, and the book it was built on, was bullshit… utterly made up and based on irrational and baseless fear. I stood and walked out the door, never to return. It took years of reading and searching to psychologically rid myself of its insidious brainwashing, and I now claim myself not only an atheist, but an antitheist for all the harm it has done and continues to do.

    • I think that makes you more free now than it makes you the traditionally used definition of an atheist – xoxo

    • David Martin says:

      The Bible commands the Church to make disciples (Matt 28:18-20), not converts. Someone who has heard the gospel and rejected it is worse off, but just how much is irrelevant since eternity is still a long time to be alone, in darkness without God. Some reject it with prejudice like yourself. I can’t imagine what God has in store for them.

  54. Randall Stevenson says:

    I really understand what you went through, ds. I was raised A/G as well. I think most of them mean well. You can imagine my surprise when I learned the Assembly of God was founded in Hot Springs, Arkansas in 1914. It is interesting to me that you are antitheist and I am Catholic, yet both of our destinations were based on similar experiences. I was agnostic for a few years and was very put off with some of the control methods I had seen used in Churches. But, I also see a lot of good the Church and Christianity have brought. They were responsible for protecting non-combatants in wars, for the development of hospitals and many other good things. Humans do bad things, but I cannot be anti-human.

  55. Richard h says:

    PLEASE READ THIS!!!!!Some of these people are still alive some are dead but please be objective.HERE ALL THE LINKS.they are fairly short but very interesting.
    Atheist:https://youtu.be/XDB594jZGNs
    Monk:https://youtu.be/byig-MjT0Gk
    Satanist:https://youtu.be/I11L71PD3Lw
    Man from Africahttps://youtu.be/pzEb9BInwmA

  56. It’s pure nonsense, using scripture as an attestation of divine authority. The presupposition that one must believe the Bible is accurate and infallible, therefore it is direct evidence that God’s existence is benign and omniscient, is simply ludicrous. Scripture may indicate that some of the historical places existed, ( Mesopotamia, Corinth, etc.) and possibly persons who scribed the laconic verses of its doctrines, but it in no way supports any of the moral or ethical claims of its religious zealots, nor does it confirm the existence of any God(s). The Bible runs rife with contradiction, malfeasance, masochism, obtuse behaviors and genocidal activities. It stands to reason that It is profoundly more productive to abstain from evangelizing to those whom have yet to hear of Christianity. I am amazed that any person(s) could rationalize espousing in a faith/religion in lieu of any supporting evidentiary fact. Four of the first five commandments stipulate death as punishment for violators, and the next commandment says, “Thou shalt not kill.” This is egregiously contradictory towards morality, which the Bible supposedly instills within the mind of the indoctrinated. It is difficult to break free from the constraints of the cyclical nature of guilt, shame and repentance as religion so prescribes as necessary. We are not born into sin, sin is a creation of those who desire to control the masses, and has been perniciously successful for millennia. I am elated to have found your threads, it seems to be a constructive arena for discussion, unlike many of the you tube posts that are polluted with ad hominem and character assassinations. If one ridicules religion, they are immediately chastised in most forums of debate, sadly!!

    • Anon says:

      Hello sir. I deeply feel your frustration. Could it be perhaps, that most Christians interpret the Scriptures too literally? I believe the Bible is partially factual, partially metaphorical, and the Word of God is reserved for the words of Jesus himself. The whole Bible points to Jesus. Too many Christians I know are nothing like their Savior. And I’m sorry on their behalf. Please take a look at the fully man and fully God,Jesus Christ. I think you will find some value in Him. Cheers.

  57. Or maybe being born into a fundamentalist home/upbringing is what makes it harder to truly believe and see eternal truth most of all.

  58. If heaven bound humans are most clearly seen in children – as repeatedly stated in scripture – we are all born and created to naturally be eternally saved. I don’t know the specific culturally transcending requirement if any, but free will still gives humans choices regardless of God knowing what the final outcome of our choices are.

  59. Jj says:

    God is not a fair God but he is still Just. If I had two boys and I gave one three chocolate bars and I gave the other one, have I done anything wrong?

  60. Jw says:

    Be more like the gentile for they do these things by nature what God has commanded of you

  61. Lorenza Ricardo Meekns says:

    The scriptures used to justify the murder of babies and the rape of women is so far out in left field it is ridiculous. The scriptures are being taken totally out of context. And thank God, because of His Son Jesus Christ’s death on the cross we are no longer under the penalty of the Law!

  62. David Martin says:

    There is a very good answer to this if you understand the Sovereign Election of God. Those whom God chooses to save, He sends special revelation to (i.e. the Bible), so that they will be saved. All others have chosen to go to hell. When you try to answer a question like this without considering the whole counsel of God, it usually results in contradictions and more questions.

  63. Rex says:

    Seems like a lot of “experts” on God here, as usual. God is a mystery – please don’t try to know all the answers.

  64. sklyjd says:

    28. If someone never hears the gospel, can they still go to heaven? From some of the answers I have read it appears the people who know God the best are saying it is going to be a great outcome for the twenty thousand children who die every day from famine and diseases. I realise now that this is part of God’s plan and they will be welcomed into heaven and delivered into our loving Gods waiting arms.

    Our Bible explains everything you need to know in clear terms and it is obvious that God is the creator of everything and can do whatever he wants and it is always good because he is just. God works in such a mysterious way that we will never understand completely so I am told.

    This knowledge and the evidence quoted from the Bible makes me feel much better for these poor children and I am fully convinced that I will also be delivered into God’s arms, I just can’t wait for the big day 

    • Exactly! Since we can’t prove God DOESN’T exist, or that he DIDN’T create the Universe, or that he ISN’T just, or that he DOESN’T work in mysterious ways, it stands to reason that he MUST be all these things!

      We humans, with our puny ant-like brains, look at things like child rape or murder and think, “My God, that’s horrible!” But it’s not! Because all things work for good for those who love the Lord (duh)!

      So it doesn’t matter what kind of evil or unfairness the innocent may encounter in this life, because God will reward them in the next! It’s like what my dad used to say after having sex with me, he’d say, “Son, I know you didn’t enjoy that, but I’m going to buy you something nice later, and make everything okay!” So in the big scheme of things, it was a wash! He got what he wanted, and I got what I wanted! Win/win! No harm done.

      500Q

      [Disclaimer: See Poe’s Law]

  65. Rina ♥ says:

    You’re a doubter. Too many Bible quotations but you making powerless the power that is already in God’s Word!

    • sklyjd says:

      Please explain what power God has? Please give me an obvious example of God’s power that cannot be explained as a natural phenomenon.

      • How did you accidentally get here?
        And if you knew please do not tell me you forgot.

        • sklyjd says:

          I got here through the same process all animals use to produce their young. The whole process is natural for humans and has nothing to do with any gods.

          All gods have been created by man over many thousands of years when science was undeveloped and primitive.

  66. Duncan says:

    Deuteronomy 29.29

  67. nev says:

    Who can be foolish enough to believe all this twaddle ?

  68. Steven Malone says:

    Go wants a relationship with people. That’s the whole point. And it starts with telling them. He also wants us to follow His Word after getting to KNOW Him. Why? ….Because, just like a good and loving Father, He knows what is best for us. That’s where trusting Him comes in. Because it’s impossible to please God without faith(trust).Hebrews 11:6.

    • sklyjd says:

      This is all very well for well-fed and asset rich first world residents like yourself, but tell this same heart-warming story to the many thousands of starving kids that die every day. Does God want them to follow his word, get to know him in a relationship as a loving father and have them drop to their knees with undying faith and ask for forgiveness?

      As most have never even heard of your God and we all understand in reality that no god can save them with life giving food and medicine anyway, religion becomes nothing but an act of contempt towards these people.

  69. First, to not hear the gospel would mean you did not listen to your heart. Your mind is not your heart, yet they are physically connected and they communicate with each other.
    I will clear up that i am not perfect.
    The only human sacrifice that God commanded and approved was Jesus. The only two other people that did not suffer the process of death were Enoch and Elijah. “Hallelujah” Jesus did not either had to suffer death he had a choice. What entity that did not have to suffer death would? Someone who Loved you so much in order to conquer what our entity’s could not. Now consider “Anointed, Messiah, Christ, Kingdom, Holy Spirit” all these titles describe the same entity that Jesus has living in his heart. Light is the knowledge of what these titles up hold, the one entity which is God/Creator and what is in his heart and what he written in our hearts.
    Now consider that at one time humans were just as Jesus and on a conscious level we fell from what Jesus is, therefore we forgot were we fell from and someone has to remind us to get us back to that consciousness. Those that believe will recieve.

  70. How did you feel when you forgot to do something. Such as one or a few times when I forgot to put gas in my car and I had an appointment to be at a certain time. I was only punishing myself along with the help of that which the appointment was with.
    God has appointed each of us. Get some gas in your car. hint hint

  71. Reuben says:

    Paul says in the book of Romans, ‘for ever since the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So men are without excuse altogether without any defense or justification……’ Roman 1:20 down to 22. I have much to explain, this scripture clearly tells us that there is no excuse.

    • Hi Reuben,

      Imagine I said to you, “My God Simon created everything! He is invisible, but as you can clearly see by his handiwork, he created it. Therefore, there is no excuse for not believing in him.”

      Would you believe my claim? Of course not! You would say, “But anyone can make that same claim! What other evidence have you got?”

      Thus, this “evidence” is not evidence at all, and the argument is ultimately going to rely on some other form of supporting evidence.

      So even if someone who has never heard the gospel came to the conclusion that the earth was created, he’s not going to believe the God of the Bible did it, he’s going to believe it was created by whatever spirit, god, goddess, or gods he’s been taught to believe in, just as you now credit the God you were taught to believe in.

      So with all due respect to Paul, his evidence sucks, and there are very good excuses for not relying on this claim. If you do, they you logically obligate yourself to believe in all gods form whom the same claim is made. This claim in and of itself is worthless.

      500Q

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